Poisoner 3 day delay

[Renegade]

NK wins always come down to the last few days and last few players. I can imagine a lot more scenarios where winning in a f3 or f4 becomes near impossible, compared to any other NK.

In my humble opinion, poisoner is already the weakest NI. SK and MM get immediate kills. Arson trades the immediacy for dousing multiple targets. Poisoner trades the immediacy for... losing NI and really nothing else. What advantage is there to playing poisoner over one of the other NKs, especially with settings like 2 and 3 day delay?

For discussion. Thanks

[rumox]

There will always be a totem pole of what's good, average and "bad" with Mafia roles. Not everything will be a top tier. The game already has the crux roles implemented, so all that is left to add are more niche leaning roles. Poisoner is probably the last NK that will be added before we are forced to start looking into rather fkn weird roles tbh.

1. Instant single kill - SK
2. Instant multi kill - MM
3. Delayed multi kill - Arson
4. Delayed single kill - Poisoner

That's pretty much all there is for "vanilla style" killing roles. All that is left is the weird fucks.

[Renegade]

There will always be a totem pole of what's good, average and "bad" with Mafia roles. Not everything will be a top tier. The game already has the crux roles implemented, so all that is left to add are more niche leaning roles. Poisoner is probably the last NK that will be added before we are forced to start looking into rather fkn weird roles tbh.

1. Instant single kill - SK
2. Instant multi kill - MM
3. Delayed multi kill - Arson
4. Delayed single kill - Poisoner

That's pretty much all there is for "vanilla style" killing roles. All that is left is the weird fucks.

It is more nuanced than that.

Instant single kill - you get to choose who dies.
Instant multi kill - you don't necessarily choose who dies, you pick a house to visit. But the trade off is you can kill more than 1 person each (or every other) night.
Delayed multi kill - here you also get to choose who you douse. The trade off for that choice is having to wait to light them up.
Delayed single kill - you get to choose who you kill, but have to wait? There is no trade off here, you gain nothing but lose NI.

[MrMostache]

I think Poisoner needs to:

1. Target dies 1 night later.
2. Appears as NS, and has NC.
3. should not have night immunity.

I'm imagining a mix between Nonkilling and killing neutrals to make Poisoner unique.

[Renegade]

I think Poisoner needs to:

1. Target dies 1 night later.
2. Appears as NS, and has NC.
3. should not have night immunity.

I'm imagining a mix between Nonkilling and killing neutrals to make Poisoner unique.

That seems like a fair trade off.

[Frinckles]

The 3 days later option was meant for saves that utilize multiple poisoners/doctors.

[RufusPL]

I think Poisoner should have a NI option available but otherwise he is fine. MM is still the weakest of killers. Most of the time u just help mafia win by killing towns and not being able to kill them in the endgame. On the topic of killers i think the new Arson option is nice because it makes him more flexible but for some reason it's grayed out and i can't use it in my setup.

[Renegade]

Well, again, I'm in another game where Poisoner NK has this stupid 3 day option on.

I understand it exists for a multi poisoner save, but I have yet to see a single one, and only games where this option is on.

[Renegade]

Mind as well not even have NK in this game they can't kill anyone.

[JagdPanther]

A broken clock is right twice a day... I agree remove this option please.

[Grakylan]

I usually do 1 night later and make Poisoner completely silent. No Crimes, NS, Nothing. But more often than not he gets noscoped by triad/mafia n1 or by a jailor.

Actually here's some food for thought, maybe the Poisoner poisons whoever attempts to RB him? Escort, Consort, Liaison, Jailor, Kidnapper, Interrogator...

[JeremiahSablan]

I mean poisons pierce through almost every protection ever, and unlike arso where he can be RBed from igniting his victims Poisoners poisons can automatically kill their victims. Plus with the kill being delayed you’re most likely never going to be detected by a LO, Detect, Agent/Van. Pretty sure poisoner was really just meant to be a silent but deadly killer… (Plus it wouldn’t really be that fair and fun if one NK could pierce through all protections, can’t easily be detected, and night immune, but the others couldn’t.)

[RufusPL]

The delayed kill is already a big deal and makes it harder to decrease triad votes endgame. Also it decreases amount of kills overall because ur victims can be easier killed by other means (other killings roles, lynch) before ur poison works. And it's not really that much harder to detect if u are paying attention. Not having night immunity on neut killer makes it really hard to beat triad, most of the time Poisoner will just exist to help Triad win. I would pick Serial Killer over any other NK any day.

[Renegade]

The delayed kill is already a big deal and makes it harder to decrease triad votes endgame. Also it decreases amount of kills overall because ur victims can be easier killed by other means (other killings roles, lynch) before ur poison works. And it's not really that much harder to detect if u are paying attention. Not having night immunity on neut killer makes it really hard to beat triad, most of the time Poisoner will just exist to help Triad win. I would pick Serial Killer over any other NK any day.

Honestly I played a game yesterday as triad, and we killed the poisoner N1 randomly. It completely sucked, and given the choice as triad would want to keep the poisoner alive until much later.

Having no other kills severely hampered the triad and we lost bigley.

Just an anecdote.

[Varcron]

I mean poisons pierce through almost every protection ever, and unlike arso where he can be RBed from igniting his victims Poisoners poisons can automatically kill their victims. Plus with the kill being delayed you’re most likely never going to be detected by a LO, Detect, Agent/Van. Pretty sure poisoner was really just meant to be a silent but deadly killer… (Plus it wouldn’t really be that fair and fun if one NK could pierce through all protections, can’t easily be detected, and night immune, but the others couldn’t.)

I'd like to agree except the problem is in it's current form poisoner only really benefits the main evil faction

SK is much more effective by a long shot, the only NK that could be argued to be weaker could be MM but even then with NI and a bit of luck you can get a spicy spree off. NI or at least a one-two shot night immunity would be ideal for poisoner

[Grakylan]

I still stand by Night Immunity for Poisoner. Half the games I've played that had a Poisoner saw him offed by Mafia or Triad night 1.

[Renegade]

NI and remove the past one day options.

[Renegade]

Another day, another host either unaware or trolling(more likely, cuz they played stupid afterward), with 3 day delay kill on, can be healed by doc on, and knows they are poisoned on.

[Veliaire]

Usually, I tend to be on the side of not removing options, but in this instance I will make an exception. There is literally no reason why a neutral killer has to wait 3 nights for a kill. At that point can Poisoner is more Neutral Evil than Neutral Killer.

One day delay should be non-negotiable. From there, the host can decide whether or not the poisoner will be immune to detection, or have healable poison.

Poisoner is the only NK that has no option for Night Immunity so why gimp it even further with a 3 night delay?

[Renegade]

Sadly, I am still seeing the 2 nights later setting being used in trash saves.

Should be removed.