Wealth and Power

[Helz]

For many years I have poked at how backwards I feel our society is in terms of rewarding effort and ability. I came across this quote the other day and it has stuck with me:

The people come to understand that wealth is not the fruit of labour but the result of organized, protected robbery. Richer people are no longer respectable people; they are nothing more than flesh eating animals, jackals and vultures which wallow in the people’s blood”
-Frantz Fanon

It goes a little... far. But the core concept fits imo. I feel like many industry's are morally bankrupt at heart and the amount of influence industries get over law results in a rigged system. In just about every industry I feel like those who work hard and have talent get less than someone who has just put themselves in a position of power over them. I kinda wonder how much of the overall strife in our society is created from what I perceive as this basic lack of fairness.

Not sure if I really have a point here but I am curious what people think about this. When I think about it its kinda interesting how the lower and middle class strives to work hard or become talented while the wealthy strive to place themselves to profit from others hard work.

[OzyWho]

The thing is though, what's the alternative? Communism?

I'm telling ya, the AI's could totally figure out a new economic system and re-write the entire world and would bring the dawn of a new era for humanity!

[Helz]

The thing is though, what's the alternative? Communism?

I'm telling ya, the AI's could totally figure out a new economic system and re-write the entire world and would bring the dawn of a new era for humanity!

Well no. Just eliminating the corruption that causes this disparity. The justification of capitalism is when firms compete in a free market the consumer benefits but our power structures have worked and still work to eliminate a free market from ever existing. They create barriers to participating in markets so they can cut themselves in and profit from others work.

For many years I have been thinking about what real evil is and a part of me feels that intentional oppressive greed is a form of true evil that causes a significant portion of the large scale suffering in the world. Most other forms of evil feel like a struggle for whats beneficial for one group while this sort of behavior is intentionally oppressive for profit.

[Oberon]

Can you give some examples of "corrupt industries"?

[Helz]

Can you give some examples of "corrupt industries"?

Sure

Consider college sports that generate billions with the only 'payment' given to students in the form of no tuition. Or their professional counter parts with industry's like the UFC making massive money with abysmally small amounts going to the fighters (except for those top dogs.) In either example the talented and hard working individuals make very little while people in a position of power heavily profit.

Or consider the growing wage disparity between employees and board members. Those who work hard and have specialized skills to preform the required functions receive little in comparison to those who are able to network into positions on their board and even when they preform terribly they are still heavily rewarded. The Gamestop CEO terribly miss managed the company driving it within range of bankruptcy but still walked away with a 170 million dollar pay out.

Or think about the situation with Britney Spears. She is the artist people pay to see but she does not have control over her life or her decisions and while she works hard other people that lack the talent and work ethic to do what she does profit.

I feel like its in just about every industry. I also feel like the focus of business has shifted from 'how can we profit by providing a function society needs' into 'how can we create a function thats profitable and force society to use it.' Working to pass laws that eliminate competition or colluding so a firm can price gouge their consumers is certainly a form of theft imo but working to structure the fabric of society into a new form of slavery has become acceptable and normal behavior across industries.

[OzyWho]

The first and 3rd paragraphs are because of the contracts that they signed; while the reason for signing the contracts was due to lacking alternatives.

I don't know or understand anything about 2nd paragraph. But on a similar note, I think most companies big dogs are those who built the place?

But back to the "binding the artist/sportisti to a unfair contract because they lack other alternatives" - only way to fix that sort of thing would to make laws that restrict what's allowed in contracts, and over time micro manage these laws? People would always find ways around them, or even create new problems in the process. There's will always be new stuff in the world. This solution is just not realistic and I can't imagine any other.


At least we are not in east Asia. There's some real slavery going on. In multiple countries. In multiple ways. I for one would hate to be stranded in a foreign land under false promises, have my ability to return home be removed, and work for quite literally nothing.

[Helz]

The first and 3rd paragraphs are because of the contracts that they signed; while the reason for signing the contracts was due to lacking alternatives.

I don't know or understand anything about 2nd paragraph. But on a similar note, I think most companies big dogs are those who built the place?

But back to the "binding the artist/sportisti to a unfair contract because they lack other alternatives" - only way to fix that sort of thing would to make laws that restrict what's allowed in contracts, and over time micro manage these laws? People would always find ways around them, or even create new problems in the process. There's will always be new stuff in the world. This solution is just not realistic and I can't imagine any other.


At least we are not in east Asia. There's some real slavery going on. In multiple countries. In multiple ways. I for one would hate to be stranded in a foreign land under false promises, have my ability to return home be removed, and work for quite literally nothing.

Kinda. College players get nothing because there is regulation preventing them from being compensated. Britney Spears situation is due to her being declared 'mentally and financially incompetent' so a fiduciary was placed over her to manage her money. There was contract stuff that locked her into doing business exclusively with certain people which was itself predatory but thats an interesting situation to look into if you ever want.

27901
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/the-pay-gap-between-ceos-and-workers-is-much-worse-than-you-realize/
There is a Washington post article from 2014 that shows how out of whack America is vs any other country on pay ratio. For some companies the board members built them but for many its just a different sort of politics.

Predatory practices will always be a thing and I don't really have a solution to something so systemic, I just read that quote and it struck me that I have a problem in general with wealthy America. More than a few times I have really upset wealthy people voicing what I thought about the way they make their money (Usually people grabbing money as a board member for a non-profit.)

On the most basic level we pretend that as a society money is a reflection of contribution but I feel that society has gotten so twisted it really is just a game of making a different form of theft legal. Some of the stuff is complicated but some of it is very simple. The fact I am only allowed to choose 1 satellite internet/TV provider is just to eliminate the capitalistic mechanisms we pretend to embrace so a company can have higher profit margins. When that stuff is done with things that are absolute necessity's such as electricity it is very wrong.

[OzyWho]

On the most basic level we pretend that as a society money is a reflection of contribution but I feel that society has gotten so twisted it really is just a game of making a different form of theft legal.
This feels very in touch with reality.
'Ignorance is bliss' feels like a comforting thought right about now. :D

[SuperJack]

Can you give some examples of "corrupt industries"?

Uh. Wouldn't it be easier to give the list of non-corrupt industries?

[OzyWho]

Uh. Wouldn't it be easier to give the list of non-corrupt industries?

lol

[Oberon]

Uh. Wouldn't it be easier to give the list of non-corrupt industries?
You think there's that many corrupt industries?

[SuperJack]

You think there's that many corrupt industries?

Yes. Name a few

[yzb25]

i get trigged by how they just get bailed out whenever they cock up and just get richer lol. That's when the system feels most... incestuous... I guess. unpopular politicians get propped up and "bailed out" by the support of bigwigs, who in turn get propped up by those unpopular polticians. It's like they cover for eachother's utter lack of talent or vision.

[Oberon]

Kinda. College players get nothing because there is regulation preventing them from being compensated. Britney Spears situation is due to her being declared 'mentally and financially incompetent' so a fiduciary was placed over her to manage her money. There was contract stuff that locked her into doing business exclusively with certain people which was itself predatory but thats an interesting situation to look into if you ever want.

27901
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/the-pay-gap-between-ceos-and-workers-is-much-worse-than-you-realize/
There is a Washington post article from 2014 that shows how out of whack America is vs any other country on pay ratio. For some companies the board members built them but for many its just a different sort of politics.

Predatory practices will always be a thing and I don't really have a solution to something so systemic, I just read that quote and it struck me that I have a problem in general with wealthy America. More than a few times I have really upset wealthy people voicing what I thought about the way they make their money (Usually people grabbing money as a board member for a non-profit.)

On the most basic level we pretend that as a society money is a reflection of contribution but I feel that society has gotten so twisted it really is just a game of making a different form of theft legal. Some of the stuff is complicated but some of it is very simple. The fact I am only allowed to choose 1 satellite internet/TV provider is just to eliminate the capitalistic mechanisms we pretend to embrace so a company can have higher profit margins. When that stuff is done with things that are absolute necessity's such as electricity it is very wrong.
accurate

[Helz]

This thing just popped into my head

I take issue with industry in-groups existing but what if that is just a reflection of information dissemination? If all of humanity was blind and in a cave those who knew how to feel through other senses to identify the things that made them successful would do well and communicate that to their children. As much as I hate the processes in our society that perpetuate inequality and prehistory profitable situations I kinda wonder if that level of human nature that drives such predatory action is literally a result of perception which is itself a result of the state of being that's outside of any decision making process for an individual.

Maybe I am crazy or maybe systemic evil is just a product of determinism? Or if determinism is not a thing maybe that evil that I blamed on human nature is just some resulting drive of human nature in a different way than I have ever considered.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

The thing is though, what's the alternative? Communism?

Social-democracy using the State to limit the inequalities inherent to capitalism. We went from the relative horror of the industrial era to what we have now, which certainly isn't perfect, but also certainly better than the industrial era's life conditions. That went through social-democratic reforms, be it under that name or under another. We just have to keep moving that way. Capitalism is the best system we know of, but as - God forgive me - KARL MARX correctly said, capitalism is based on exploitation... That is why people have to make use of their political power they have due to their work power (they are needed), through unions, political parties and, to a lesser extent, community initiatives. It's not the road to Lenin's imaginary heaven, but it certainly is the road to bring pretty much everyone out of hell after a while if democracy is preserved with all the freedom that comes with it.


I'm telling ya, the AI's could totally figure out a new economic system and re-write the entire world and would bring the dawn of a new era for humanity!

Only if the programmers are very clever and make everything work fine. Plus, handing the control of our lives to machines... what about no? lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Well no. Just eliminating the corruption that causes this disparity. The justification of capitalism is when firms compete in a free market the consumer benefits but our power structures have worked and still work to eliminate a free market from ever existing. They create barriers to participating in markets so they can cut themselves in and profit from others work.

Even if a completely free market was to appear today and everywhere on the planet, power structures would inevitably emerge, because people seek profit: that is the basis of free market. What you are talking about here is called anarcho-capitalism, and it suffers from the issue every anarchist ideology suffers from: the quest for power inherent to human nature. Even if only 1 % of humans seek power, that is enough for them to gain the power and to start organizing. And remember I started with the state of anarcho-capitalist utopia. I didn't even talk about the means necessary to reach said utopia, and I believe the incredible difficulty to get rid of power structures is self-explanatory.

[Oberon]

It doesn't seem to me that Helz was talking about anarcho-capitalism, especially since from what I can gather he seems to be more a left-leaning person in general, at least on questions about economy.
What he seems to say is that there are some restrictions in place meant to prevent monopolies or protect the consumer which actually inadvertently have the exact opposite effect by making it very hard for the little guys to challenge the big players.
Marshmallow Marshall less reading, more TV :)

[Marshmallow Marshall]

less TV, more FM

*very subtly points at the Last Hope signup thread*