Should the Bible be taken literally?

[Grayswandir]

I feel like it shouldn’t. You see a lot of fundamentalists taking things literally and believing for instance that the Earth is 4,000 years old, and who don’t believe in evolution ect. But I feel that especially when looking at the Old Testament the God in the Bible there is more abstract and complex (almost like a force of nature, personified), and if you read it literally you would be more or less required to treat a lot of the ‘stories’ as historical (in practical terms), like humans getting kicked out of Eden, Cain getting punished by God, ect. But given how complex and even hard to understand God in that part of the Bible is, it seems unlikely that its meant to be taken at face value.

To make it clear, I’m not Christian but I find the Bible quite interesting (well, some parts of it), but I’m curious how everyone else feels about it.

I personally think it shouldn’t, partly because of how I feel that God being such a nasty prick in the Old Testament is (frankly) more realistic, and I feel like there are some deeper themes touched on that the New Testament ignores - such as when Moses leads the Jews out of Egypt, which I feel is a way of teaching ppl to resist tyranny and not to take everything that’s given to them if it’s shit. Or how Cain’s sacrifice wasn’t rewarded because he was kind of an envious asshole. Things like that. Whereas the New Testament can, as far as I can tell, be put down to ‘be nice’, which I feel is a very simplistic way of looking at the world.

[SuperJack]

I mean, the answer is no, I am confident everyone on here will also say no.

[Helz]

One thing I always try to get people to focus on is 'what is the Bible'. At the end of the day its a collection of books. But those books were chosen by men and others men decided not to include. Still yet other 'books' were not found until after the Bible was set to its format.

Then you have to consider language and etymology. Most of the Bible was written in Hebrew and translated multiple times into what we read now. Also language itself evolves and words change meaning over time. 100 years back 'Cute' may mean 'small' while today we associate it with 'adorable.' This is the reason pretty much every Christian theology program has some focus on studying Hebrew.

Then you should consider context. According to Deuteronomy 25 if a man dies and hasn't had a kid with his wife she can demand his brother bang her. If that guy says no, she can drag him in front of some village elders and spit in his face. I don't think even the most hardcore religious zealots would support that sort of thing in these days and I don't even know where I would go to find a 'Village Elder.'

And finally just considering what it means if the bible is literal is some really dark shit. If God is all powerful and all knowing then he created us while knowing every action we would take, but yet then damns souls to eternal torment in hell for living life out the way he created them. This is even talked about in Exodus and Romans in context to how the Pharaoh was basically created for destruction. Consider what justice that is to be a creature that is created by God for the purpose of being tormented for eternity after living a life you had no control over.

I think the truth is that people just like things that justify and reinforce their beliefs. The Bible is a very big book and you can pretty much make it say anything you want if you want to ignore context, and mix & match translations. I never understood the massive push to demand that the Bible is the infallible word of God or the idea of ignoring context and taking it literally. I very much do think people should practice the basic religious process of identifying a system of values and reconciling your behavior to those values though.


Btw.. I am very curious if our community is mature enough to handle this thread.

[Grayswandir]

I 100% agree with the last point you made. The Bible was written by humans who (at least some of them) were trying to understand God and figure out how to act in a moral manner. But that means that them, being human, were sometimes wrong. I don’t think you need to agree with everything in the bible (or even with most of the Bible) to find meaning in some of it. I dislike the idea that you’re not a real Christian if you don’t believe in the entire Bible (I’m not really Christian but I suppose I have some sympathy for the religion so it always upsets me when people make that argument).

[OzyWho]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk
(Link) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk)

[Helz]

Its an interesting conversation to have next time you meet someone who insists they must take the Bible literally. Asking them why they don't take the time to understand the true meaning of the words or why some books were excluded usually opens their mind a little.

There is also the circular reasoning of 'How do you know the bible is the infallible word of God?'
'The bible told me so'
'Ok.. If I tell you I have never lied am I lying?'

I have had a few of these conversations and usually end up spending hours with those people who come knocking on my door to spread their religion. Its kinda funny to see the mental gymnastics they pull as they realize how very little their belief system is built on and how much they have never considered.

[Donald J. Trump]

LOVE THE BIBLE!!!

[OzyWho]

LOVE THE BIBLE!!!

no u

[yzb25]

Then you should consider context. According to Deuteronomy 25 if a man dies and hasn't had a kid with his wife she can demand his brother bang her. If that guy says no, she can drag him in front of some village elders and spit in his face. I don't think even the most hardcore religious zealots would support that sort of thing in these days and I don't even know where I would go to find a 'Village Elder.'


Having heard several of these various rules and stories that seem so twisted from a modern perspective, I've come to believe these people didn't actually have a notion of consent in their society. As far as they saw it, people probably had a "responsibility to reproduce", and demanding a right not to reproduce with your spouse was probably viewed as the same as demanding to have the right not to support the tribe, or something equally selfish.

With regards to the OP, from a modern point of view it can't possibly make sense to take the entire bible literally. Very basic linguistic analysis (by a linguist's standards) demonstrates the Old Testament must have had many contributors. Even then, I'm sure at least a portion of the old testament was never intended to be taken literally. In the same way Greeks personified various aspects of the human condition as gods to make various points, I am inclined to believe some of the stories in the bible were always meant to be viewed as metaphysical allegories rather than concrete historical accounts. Some of the stories just feel so... visceral. And some of the stories (like the flood story) have contemporary equivalents in other now extinct religions.

For a long time, jews never even wrote down all of their practices and customs. iirc, it was only after pressure from the Persians to give a clear set of customs and beliefs that various jewish groups started writing fragmented and contradictory accounts of their beliefs. This suggests to me the religion was originally more loose and ambiguous, in relation to later religions which appeared to present a much more cohesive and concrete narrative.

[Stealthbomber16]

I mean, the answer is no, I am confident everyone on here will also say no.

Yeah I’m like... the only person in this wider community who would ever possibly say yes to this is Rachyl.

Not the right place to ask this question for a debate.

[OzyWho]

Not the right place to ask this question for a debate.
Circlejerk is not the answer to everything. Kappa

[Mike]

If you where to read the bible and follow what it teaches. You would be amazed at what transpires. The bible should be taken at it word, Yes. But people fail to truly read it. It is like a story you cat just skim over it and claim to know it.

[Mike]

One thing I always try to get people to focus on is 'what is the Bible'. At the end of the day its a collection of books. But those books were chosen by men and others men decided not to include. Still yet other 'books' were not found until after the Bible was set to its format.

Then you have to consider language and etymology. Most of the Bible was written in Hebrew and translated multiple times into what we read now. Also language itself evolves and words change meaning over time. 100 years back 'Cute' may mean 'small' while today we associate it with 'adorable.' This is the reason pretty much every Christian theology program has some focus on studying Hebrew.

Then you should consider context. According to Deuteronomy 25 if a man dies and hasn't had a kid with his wife she can demand his brother bang her. If that guy says no, she can drag him in front of some village elders and spit in his face. I don't think even the most hardcore religious zealots would support that sort of thing in these days and I don't even know where I would go to find a 'Village Elder.'

And finally just considering what it means if the bible is literal is some really dark shit. If God is all powerful and all knowing then he created us while knowing every action we would take, but yet then damns souls to eternal torment in hell for living life out the way he created them. This is even talked about in Exodus and Romans in context to how the Pharaoh was basically created for destruction. Consider what justice that is to be a creature that is created by God for the purpose of being tormented for eternity after living a life you had no control over.

I think the truth is that people just like things that justify and reinforce their beliefs. The Bible is a very big book and you can pretty much make it say anything you want if you want to ignore context, and mix & match translations. I never understood the massive push to demand that the Bible is the infallible word of God or the idea of ignoring context and taking it literally. I very much do think people should practice the basic religious process of identifying a system of values and reconciling your behavior to those values though.


Btw.. I am very curious if our community is mature enough to handle this thread.

Helz, Times have changes a lot of the laws of Old Phrases Where also changed in the Times of Jesus. IE the New Testament.

[SuperJack]

If you where to read the bible and follow what it teaches. You would be amazed at what transpires. The bible should be taken at it word, Yes. But people fail to truly read it. It is like a story you cat just skim over it and claim to know it.

Ok, but it's the "Truly read it" that is the question. The OP is meaning to read it word to word with the current English edition with the current English language.

We all know that some people have their beliefs in how to "truly" read it, just as you know there will be other Christians that read it in a different way and believe theirs is the true way.

End of the day, aslong as people who are in need are helped I have no issues with religions and belief's. If believing make you happy and makes you a good person so be it.

It's those that abuse their position and abuse the books to twist them for their own selfish desire that I have issues with. Also those who try to force their beliefs on others.

Be careful on this thread Mike, there are people who will grasp at posting and pushing anything to get a reaction from you, you have my love and don't stick around if people begin to lower the thread.

[DJarJar]

But people fail to truly read it.

let's ignore the bible and just examine this statement. What is it supposed to mean? Can't I say this about almost any text and then try to argue that it (that text) means whatever I want it to mean?

[Mike]

I 100% agree with the last point you made. The Bible was written by humans who (at least some of them) were trying to understand God and figure out how to act in a moral manner. But that means that them, being human, were sometimes wrong. I don’t think you need to agree with everything in the bible (or even with most of the Bible) to find meaning in some of it. I dislike the idea that you’re not a real Christian if you don’t believe in the entire Bible (I’m not really Christian but I suppose I have some sympathy for the religion so it always upsets me when people make that argument).

This is the problem with the world. "I want" "I don't think" "I don't like". We have changed church into what is fun for us. What we want it to be. The Bible is just a book written by Man. The bible is the inspired word of God.

If God was good why does he let so many good people suffer? Answer to that is simple. He gave man Free Will.

'Everyone wants there cake and eat it to.

I want God to stop all the suffering. But I want God to let me make my own choices. Wake up people you cant have them both.

There are Christians that feel they have to force God on everyone. NO, We are to give Gods word it is not up to us for people to take it. Jesus never Forced God on people. He only showed, talked, Taught Gods word.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I would highly encourage any of you to read the New Testament.

[DJarJar]

It's those that abuse their position and abuse the books to twist them for their own selfish desire that I have issues with. Also those who try to force their beliefs on others.



to play devil's advocate though, christianity is one of the dominant religions today specifically because of the two things you're complaining about. Because of popes, archbishops, kings, emperors, etc. pushing it for the sake of "god has given us the right to rule, so therefore all you peasants must listen to us, and if you don't you're a heretic and will be burned!"

[Mike]

Ok, but it's the "Truly read it" that is the question. The OP is meaning to read it word to word with the current English edition with the current English language.

We all know that some people have their beliefs in how to "truly" read it, just as you know there will be other Christians that read it in a different way and believe theirs is the true way.

End of the day, aslong as people who are in need are helped I have no issues with religions and belief's. If believing make you happy and makes you a good person so be it.

It's those that abuse their position and abuse the books to twist them for their own selfish desire that I have issues with. Also those who try to force their beliefs on others.

Be careful on this thread Mike, there are people who will grasp at posting and pushing anything to get a reaction from you, you have my love and don't stick around if people begin to lower the thread.

NO it is ok. Everyone is open to there thoughts. That does not bother me. And for the game I was not bothered by the posts your Alter ego posted. It was the setup its self that made me uncomfortable. Super Jack you and your alter Ego I Still consider Friends. I am not as soft as I may have appeared. I thank you for this post. I respect you for this post. But this is open and everyone even opposite my views is welcome to Agree with mine views or Trash my Views. That does not bother me. This is in Circle Jerk.

[Mike]

let's ignore the bible and just examine this statement. What is it supposed to mean? Can't I say this about almost any text and then try to argue that it (that text) means whatever I want it to mean?

True, You can. But then if you try and make God's word what you want it to mean are you truly Reading it? Is it not to read something, Read it in the way it was Written? (The way the Author (in this case God) Wrote it)

[Mike]

to play devil's advocate though, christianity is one of the dominant religions today specifically because of the two things you're complaining about. Because of popes, archbishops, kings, emperors, etc. pushing it for the sake of "god has given us the right to rule, so therefore all you peasants must listen to us, and if you don't you're a heretic and will be burned!"

Because of popes, archbishops, kings, emperors, etc. = christianity ???? That is Debatable.

[OzyWho]

"truly read it." - that does not include taking it's word literally?
I'm guessing you have to take take everything metaphorically and figure out the meaning on your own? How inconvenient. But at least you can give it another shot when there's something that you don't like.

[Mike]

"truly read it." - that does not include taking it's word literally?
I'm guessing you have to take take everything metaphorically and figure out the meaning on your own? How inconvenient. But at least you can give it another shot when there's something that you don't like.

This is my point, To many people want to twist Gods word to what they like. The Pharisees where a prime example of that. and to this day we have people still using what they did in the name of God. This does not make Gods word bad only the people abusing it.

[DJarJar]

to play devil's advocate though, christianity is one of the dominant religions today specifically because of the two things you're complaining about. Because of popes, archbishops, kings, emperors, etc. pushing it for the sake of "god has given us the right to rule, so therefore all you peasants must listen to us, and if you don't you're a heretic and will be burned!"

i mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Alexander_VI and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII
should be enough for anybody to see that these religious leaders are a farce.

(the first one bribed and murdered his way to the papacy and the 2nd one created the anglican church just so he could divorce his wife cuz he wanted a male heir)... both are considered to be divine rulers by their respective christian sects

for me that seems like it should be enough for anybody to see organized religion itself as a farce. Not to say that there is no god or higher power, but just that the myriad of organized religions we have are themselves BS



ok rant aside, for anybody who is a roman catholic specifically, i'd be curious how it's possible to believe the pope is god's chosen speaker whilst also acknowledging that historically most of the popes are SERIOUS sinners

[DJarJar]

True, You can. But then if you try and make God's word what you want it to mean are you truly Reading it? Is it not to read something, Read it in the way it was Written? (The way the Author (in this case God) Wrote it)

okay but how do we know what God meant? You say read it in the way it was written by God but since it's just transcribed and translated and interpreted by humans, how can we actually do that?

[DJarJar]

are themselves BS


to clarify: since they are essentially just the product of greedy/power-hungry humans using the idea of God to give themselves power over others

[Mike]

Ok, but it's the "Truly read it" that is the question. The OP is meaning to read it word to word with the current English edition with the current English language.

We all know that some people have their beliefs in how to "truly" read it, just as you know there will be other Christians that read it in a different way and believe theirs is the true way.

End of the day, aslong as people who are in need are helped I have no issues with religions and belief's. If believing make you happy and makes you a good person so be it.

It's those that abuse their position and abuse the books to twist them for their own selfish desire that I have issues with. Also those who try to force their beliefs on others.

Be careful on this thread Mike, there are people who will grasp at posting and pushing anything to get a reaction from you, you have my love and don't stick around if people begin to lower the thread.

This is hitting the nail on the head. If everyone could understand this imagine the world.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Luke 9:50
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

[Mike]

okay but how do we know what God meant? You say read it in the way it was written by God but since it's just transcribed and translated and interpreted by humans, how can we actually do that?

Easy Thru Prayer. I used to be a hard core Anti Bible person. I would laugh when others gave me this exact same answer. But until I truly stopped fighting and accepted God and just sat and talked to him a lot of the Fog went away and clarity came. the answers are always in the word of God. It is the crazy religions people trying to control others mis-using Gods word to further there own wants and needs that have dissuaded people into not following Gods word.

[Mike]

to clarify: since they are essentially just the product of greedy/power-hungry humans using the idea of God to give themselves power over others

Agree 100%

[DJarJar]

Easy Thru Prayer. I used to be a hard core Anti Bible person. I would laugh when others gave me this exact same answer. But until I truly stopped fighting and accepted God and just sat and talked to him a lot of the Fog went away and clarity came. the answers are always in the word of God. It is the crazy religions people trying to control others mis-using Gods word to further there own wants and needs that have dissuaded people into not following Gods word.

can you describe what hearing God's word is like? i assume it's not like hearing morgan freeman randomly start talking inside your head?

[Mike]

can you describe what hearing God's word is like? i assume it's not like hearing morgan freeman randomly start talking inside your head?

For everyone it is different. For me It is not hearing a voice. It is like being confused on what I am lost on and then having the clarity of knowing. It is also the peace that covers you. Again this is just how it is for me. It took me many years to understand. for some It happens fast for others like myself took years. But the key point is when I finally understood The World is Different from God. Just because something is legal Does not make it right. Mans word is not Gods word.

Everyone has to have there own personal walk with God. It is simple Don't take all the World telling you what is correct and incorrect. Read Gods word and let him tell you want is Good and Bad. You will be amazed at how much becomes clear when you just read his word and Talk to him.

[Renegade]

It is funny when religious folk attribute anything positive in their life to jeebus but anything negative to.. not jeebus?

Something something logical fallacy.

Even if god existed I wouldn't worship that self absorbed fuck.

[Grayswandir]

Part of the reason why I made this thread was because I see many hardcore atheists making the same mistake as fundamentalists in taking the Bible literally, and they usually end up getting hung up on some irrelevant details. There are some atheists who genuinely think there is no room for religion if you accept scientific inquiry, and I think that’s dead wrong. Science and religion are two very different things that deal with different parts of the world.

A bit unrelated but one of the best arguments against the existence of God is in creation itself. I mean, if the Universe was created by God, then obviously the next question you have to ask yourself is, who created God? Or has he always existed? In which case, isn’t it simpler to skip God creating the Universe altogether and say the Universe has always existed? I have not heard any good counterarguments against this and would be interested in hearing one.

I feel though as the existence of God isn’t actually necessary for religion to be ‘true’ on a fundamental level. There’s many religions that don’t even believe in a God (like Buddhism), but what they all share in common is the belief in a set of basic moral principles that has to be followed. My ‘God’ so to speak (more important than a Creator or divine being, if it exists), would be that, and for my part I do believe that such a morality does exist (and influences the physical realm).

[Mike]

It is funny when religious folk attribute anything positive in their life to jeebus but anything negative to.. not jeebus?

Something something logical fallacy.

Even if god existed I wouldn't worship that self absorbed fuck.

And that is your choice. Maybe one day the hate you feel for something that (You don't believe in?) may change.

(How can you hate something that does not exist??)

[Grayswandir]

Ok, but it's the "Truly read it" that is the question. The OP is meaning to read it word to word with the current English edition with the current English language.

We all know that some people have their beliefs in how to "truly" read it, just as you know there will be other Christians that read it in a different way and believe theirs is the true way.

End of the day, aslong as people who are in need are helped I have no issues with religions and belief's. If believing make you happy and makes you a good person so be it.

It's those that abuse their position and abuse the books to twist them for their own selfish desire that I have issues with. Also those who try to force their beliefs on others.

Be careful on this thread Mike, there are people who will grasp at posting and pushing anything to get a reaction from you, you have my love and don't stick around if people begin to lower the thread.
+1

[Renegade]

The bible is a mish mash of goofy folk tales that were handed down by oral tradition until some people decided to wrap it up with a central story of "Jeebus" and tack on the new testament.

Nothing more than folk tales and fantasy.

Sure the bible has some very basic moral instructions - ten commandment stuff - but the atrocities throughout history that have been committed in the name of the "word of god" far outweigh any moral teachings you can get from it.

You don't need religion for morality, this is the trap most religious zealots fall into. "How can an atheist have a moral compass!!!???" style pearl clutching.

Religion served its purpose in human history, time to let it go.

[Renegade]

A long line of Popes, chief arbiters of the word of god for catholics, have long oversaw the abuse of children at the hands of God sanctioned predators, as a simple example.

Word of god!

[Renegade]

And the bullshit about what to cherry pick - I've read plenty of the bible to know it is a shitshow. Don't shave your beard!

But now that times have changed, desperate religious zealots move the goalposts - "You just don't UNDERSTAND what it is trying to say!!!" "Don't take it literally!!!"

So the word of god is an amalgamation of endlessly moving goalposts to serve the culture of the time? Doesn't sound like very sound word to me.

[Renegade]

I don't expect any love here for what I'm trying to say, this site is after all a known far right cesspool.

[Grayswandir]

A long line of Popes, chief arbiters of the word of god for catholics, have long oversaw the abuse of children at the hands of God sanctioned predators, as a simple example.

Word of god!
Isn’t that more of an argument against organized religion

[Mike]

The bible is a mish mash of goofy folk tales that were handed down by oral tradition until some people decided to wrap it up with a central story of "Jeebus" and tack on the new testament.

Nothing more than folk tales and fantasy.

Sure the bible has some very basic moral instructions - ten commandment stuff - but the atrocities throughout history that have been committed in the name of the "word of god" far outweigh any moral teachings you can get from it.

You don't need religion for morality, this is the trap most religious zealots fall into. "How can an atheist have a moral compass!!!???" style pearl clutching.

Religion served its purpose in human history, time to let it go.

Have your read the Bible??? to make this statement?? Sounds to me you have not read it. It is hard to judge something you have not read fully. There are posts in here of people who have Read the whole book and it shows that do not agree with it and that is there right. Your statement shows you have not read it and are just trying to stir the pot.

[Mike]

Isn’t that more of an argument against organized religion

Agreed

[Mike]

I don't expect any love here for what I'm trying to say, this site is after all a known far right cesspool.

So, you are saying If we do not think exactly as you do we are a far right cesspool? I have not discussed Politics. This is you already Judging others before learning who they are. You seem to do that alot Judge things you dont know without first reading or learning. HMM there is a word for that. you may want to look it up.

Stay in School Dont do Drugs.

27677

[Renegade]

Have your read the Bible??? to make this statement?? Sounds to me you have not read it. It is hard to judge something you have not read fully. There are posts in here of people who have Read the whole book and it shows that do not agree with it and that is there right. Your statement shows you have not read it and are just trying to stir the pot.

I've read it and stand by my statement.

Folk tales and fantasy. Multiply those baskets of bread.

[Renegade]

Isn’t that more of an argument against organized religion

Surely god wouldn't let his word be so easily abused?

Oh yeah problem of evil time now.

[Mike]

I've read it and stand by my statement.

Folk tales and fantasy. Multiply those baskets of bread.

ok then you read the book of Job correct?

[Renegade]

So, you are saying If we do not think exactly as you do we are a far right cesspool? I have not discussed Politics. This is you already Judging others before learning who they are. You seem to do that alot Judge things you dont know without first reading or learning. HMM there is a word for that. you may want to look it up.

Stay in School Dont do Drugs.

27677

Has nothing to do with thinking the same as me. A cursory review of posts on this forum well establish my point. From talk of politics, to even the harassment and discourse that gets a wrist slap in forum mafia games. Far right!

[Marshmallow Marshall]

A long line of Popes, chief arbiters of the word of god for catholics, have long oversaw the abuse of children at the hands of God sanctioned predators, as a simple example.

Word of god!

The Catholic Church as an entity (but not all of its individual members, priests, etc.) can and should go the fuck away. That's just because it's an institution of power that uses religion as an excuse for many bad things (again, not everyone in it, but the entity as a whole). It doesn't mean all religion is bad and should be rejected vehemently like you're doing. Why not respect those who live in accordance to their faith and who are helped by their religion to be better people, independently from any religious belief (or lack thereof)? Like this post, which I absolutely love btw:


This is hitting the nail on the head. If everyone could understand this imagine the world.

Romans 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Luke 9:50
And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

What is bad about that? Worst case scenario is, there's actually no God at all, but at least the Bible helped people in their lives and did no harm in such a case. Note that I'm talking about specific cases like this one, not talking about all consequences religion had.

[Mike]

Renegade

Job 38:16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

Please explain to me if Foke lore and Stories.

How they knew there where Springs in the sea. During that time period. During that time that would be absurd.
This passage is where God talking about what he has done.
Saying there are springs in the depths of the sea.
We only learned of this in My lifetime.

[Renegade]

Renegade

Job 38:16
Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

Please explain to me if Foke lore and Stories.

How they knew there where Springs in the sea. During that time period. During that time that would be absurd.
This passage is where God talking about what he has done.
Saying there are springs in the depths of the sea.
We only learned of this in My lifetime.

Your belief in the bible is established on the phrase "springs of the sea"? Wut?

What "springs" in the sea are you even referring to? Fault lines? Plate tectonics?

Yikes

Again a PERFECT example of cherry picking and mental gymnastics. Here you take "springs of the sea" literally, but we aren't supposed to take literally the age of the earth calculated by the blood lines described as 6000 years old?

Exhausting.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Your belief in the bible is established on the phrase "springs of the sea"? Wut?

What "springs" in the sea are you even referring to? Fault lines? Plate tectonics?

Yikes

Again a PERFECT example of cherry picking and mental gymnastics. Here you take "springs of the sea" literally, but we aren't supposed to take literally the age of the earth calculated by the blood lines described as 6000 years old?

Exhausting.

By saying "established", you probably think we shouldn't take this literally (as in "built on"). Is that incompatible with taking the rest of your post literally?

If I make a metaphor in a text, does it mean nothing has to be taken literally in my text?
One thing not having to be taken literally does not exclude other things from the same text to be meant to be taken literally. Now, I don't really understand what Mike said lol, but your argument is invalid.
Note that this works the other way around too: it's not because some things can be taken literally that EVERYTHING has to be taken literally.

[Renegade]

I know, the universe seems empty, even scary without some higher power, but that is what it is.

Religion and "word of god" is merely comfort food.

[Grayswandir]

I think since we’ve brought up the Catholic Church as a topic, I may as well fuck with this. I feel like the conflict between Protestants and Catholics (during the Reformation) can essentially be put down to ‘if the Catholics didn’t believe enough, then the Protestants believed too much.’ I mean, on the Catholic side you had priests and bishops, who were supposed to be celibate, commonly entertain mistresses and some living on their own land rather than their parish. Going even further up the hierarchy the Pope engaged in some spectacular opulence. I would go as far naming the heresy trials conducted during the 14th-15th centuries as evidence of the Pope wanting his hold on power maintained through sham trials.

Whereas on the Protestant side you had shit like the Salem witch trials where Protestants would straight up execute ppl for suspected witchcraft. Shit that ironically is popularly attributed to Catholics but Protestants mostly engaged in.

[Mike]

Your belief in the bible is established on the phrase "springs of the sea"? Wut?

What "springs" in the sea are you even referring to? Fault lines? Plate tectonics?

Yikes

Again a PERFECT example of cherry picking and mental gymnastics. Here you take "springs of the sea" literally, but we aren't supposed to take literally the age of the earth calculated by the blood lines described as 6000 years old?

Exhausting.

Read this and research the facts for your self. You will see it is not all BS as you claim.

https://www.icr.org/article/springs-ocean

[Mike]

Your belief in the bible is established on the phrase "springs of the sea"? Wut?

What "springs" in the sea are you even referring to? Fault lines? Plate tectonics?

Yikes

Again a PERFECT example of cherry picking and mental gymnastics. Here you take "springs of the sea" literally, but we aren't supposed to take literally the age of the earth calculated by the blood lines described as 6000 years old?

Exhausting.

Among the most thought provoking of God's questions to Job was, "Have you entered into the springs of the sea?" (Job 38:16a). The word for "springs" is NEBEK (transliterated from Hebrew), an unusual word referring to the places where water issues or bursts out of the earth.

[Renegade]

Read this and research the facts for your self. You will see it is not all BS as you claim.

https://www.icr.org/article/springs-ocean

Okay, then you cite a single instance where you think the bible was irrefutably correct.

Do we need to trot out the hundreds (thousands?) of places where it is irrefutably incorrect?

Good -> thanks jeebus
bad -> DEVILL!?

bible seems correct -> LOOK WORD OF GOD IS TRU
bible obviously incorrect -> DONT TAKE IT LITERALLY!

:facepalm:

[Mike]

Okay, then you cite a single instance where you think the bible was irrefutably correct.

Do we need to trot out the hundreds (thousands?) of places where it is irrefutably incorrect?

Good -> thanks jeebus
bad -> DEVILL!?

bible seems correct -> LOOK WORD OF GOD IS TRU
bible obviously incorrect -> DONT TAKE IT LITERALLY!

:facepalm:

There is 4 that talk about the springs under the ocean. There is more proof than that. But can you even Answer This one???? HOW DID THEY KNOW DURING THAT TIME????

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think since we’ve brought up the Catholic Church as a topic, I may as well fuck with this. I feel like the conflict between Protestants and Catholics (during the Reformation) can essentially be put down to ‘if the Catholics didn’t believe enough, then the Protestants believed too much.’ I mean, on the Catholic side you had priests and bishops, who were supposed to be celibate, commonly entertain mistresses and some living on their own land rather than their parish. Going even further up the hierarchy the Pope engaged in some spectacular opulence. I would go as far naming the heresy trials conducted during the 14th-15th centuries as evidence of the Pope wanting his hold on power maintained through sham trials.

Whereas on the Protestant side you had shit like the Salem witch trials where Protestants would straight up execute ppl for suspected witchcraft. Shit that ironically is popularly attributed to Catholics but Protestants mostly engaged in.

Celibate was imposed by the Gregorian Reform... so that priests' riches would go back to the Church. Popes back then were all but holy, acting like true statesmen. The literal teen we talked about is a ridiculous example, Rodrigo Borgia is another. Things like this lead me to strongly believe the institution is full of shit lol (don't you dare tell me they were inspired by God and truly followed the path of Jesus Christ as his successors...).

About "Protestants", there's a quite important point you're missing: the Reformation created a ton of different "branches". Some were completely insane (like in Münster), some were much more sane than what existed before (like those saying people should be able to read the Bible in their own language so that they may understand it). You can't just say a bunch of crazies represent the entire religion.

[Renegade]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sPUBoCw3YlU/UVmScP_Q89I/AAAAAAAAJaY/OPnuKl7K0sg/s1600/IMG_2163%5B1%5D.JPG

[Renegade]

There is 4 that talk about the springs under the ocean. There is more proof than that. But can you even Answer This one???? HOW DID THEY KNOW DURING THAT TIME????

My guess is, just like how they believe god created the earth, the writers believed that god used a "spring" that flooded the oceans. (Which by the way, is not how the oceans were even created.)

Deep sea vents do not create the oceans.

A spring is a water feature from which water "springs" forth (really, flows from somewhere else). What other explanation would they have for oceans magically appearing? God already created it. Seems to fit to me.

[Grayswandir]

Celibate was imposed by the Gregorian Reform... so that priests' riches would go back to the Church. Popes back then were all but holy, acting like true statesmen. The literal teen we talked about is a ridiculous example, Rodrigo Borgia is another. Things like this lead me to strongly believe the institution is full of shit lol (don't you dare tell me they were inspired by God and truly followed the path of Jesus Christ as his successors...).

About "Protestants", there's a quite important point you're missing: the Reformation created a ton of different "branches". Some were completely insane (like in Münster), some were much more sane than what existed before (like those saying people should be able to read the Bible in their own language so that they may understand it). You can't just say a bunch of crazies represent the entire religion.
Oh probably. I may have missed some branches. I’m talking about ones like Lutheranism and especially the Pilgrims and the Calvinists, many of whom were well known for extreme iconoclasm.

[Mike]

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sPUBoCw3YlU/UVmScP_Q89I/AAAAAAAAJaY/OPnuKl7K0sg/s1600/IMG_2163%5B1%5D.JPG

This is your response? Just ignore the Question? Well that is your Choice.
And cherry picking is done by people who dont read it.
They love to take the bible out of context like you are doing.

For example

A woman walked to the Store. As the woman was walking to the store she saw a Man. The woman see that the man is holding a Knife about to murder a small 11 year old Girl. The woman sees a gun on the ground. The woman knows if she does not shoot the man that the man will kill this small 11 year old girl. The woman then picks up the gun from the ground and shoots the Man. The woman just saved the 11 year old girls life.

now lets cherry pick some sentences.
A woman walked to the Store. As the woman was walking to the store she saw a Man. The woman sees a gun on the ground. The woman then picks up the gun from the ground and shoots the Man.

This is a prime example what people do with the bible all the time. The will not read the whole book. but they will pick parts of it to bash it.

[Grayswandir]

Renegade how do you reconcile your tying in religion with far right extremism with the fact that some of the most fervent abolitionists were not only religious, but driven to abolitionism because of religion?

[SuperJack]

May I ask what type of Christian you are Mike and what your beliefs are?

[Mike]

My guess is, just like how they believe god created the earth, the writers believed that god used a "spring" that flooded the oceans. (Which by the way, is not how the oceans were even created.)

Deep sea vents do not create the oceans.

A spring is a water feature from which water "springs" forth (really, flows from somewhere else). What other explanation would they have for oceans magically appearing? God already created it. Seems to fit to me.

But none of the bible states that. "My guess is, just like how they believe god created the earth" The bible says how they believed the oceans where created. So now what you are doing is trying to warp it around to make facts seem fiction.

Have you not notice everything has a perfect balance to it? all life everywhere has a perfect balance. Now let look at science. any time you randomly create anything there is no balance to it it is always chaotic. unless you have a controlled environment. But no science experiment will work outside the controlled environment. My point is the perfect balance we have is created.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Renegade how do you reconcile your tying in religion with far right extremism with the fact that some of the most fervent abolitionists were not only religious, but driven to abolitionism because of religion?

STOP SPEAKING IN ABSOLUTES, YOU LITTLE PIECE OF SITH!

It's not because some far-right people weren't religious that all far-right people aren't. Take Franco as an example of religious far-right. Anti-far-right people being religious doesn't exclude far-right people from being religious too.

[Mike]

May I ask what type of Christian you are Mike and what your beliefs are?

Well I go to an Independent Baptist church. My beliefs are in God. Not a type of Christian. For I believe as the bible tells us any belief that is not ageist God is for God. I do not believe in making other believe what I believe in. I do believe that all Christians should spread Gods word and should never be ashamed of God. It is never my place to judge another. But I will help anyone that wants to Find Gods word. There are things that other may do I do not agree with but I am not going to judge them for that for it is not my place to judge only to help.

[SuperJack]

But none of the bible states that. "My guess is, just like how they believe god created the earth" The bible says how they believed the oceans where created. So now what you are doing is trying to warp it around to make facts seem fiction.

Have you not notice everything has a perfect balance to it? all life everywhere has a perfect balance. Now let look at science. any time you randomly create anything there is no balance to it it is always chaotic. unless you have a controlled environment. But no science experiment will work outside the controlled environment. My point is the perfect balance we have is created.

I mean. Try not to diss science or just throw it all on the same boat. Science is quite a broad word, is there something your more specific with?

[Renegade]

This is your response? Just ignore the Question? Well that is your Choice.
And cherry picking is done by people who dont read it.
They love to take the bible out of context like you are doing.

For example

A woman walked to the Store. As the woman was walking to the store she saw a Man. The woman see that the man is holding a Knife about to murder a small 11 year old Girl. The woman sees a gun on the ground. The woman knows if she does not shoot the man that the man will kill this small 11 year old girl. The woman then picks up the gun from the ground and shoots the Man. The woman just saved the 11 year old girls life.

now lets cherry pick some sentences.
A woman walked to the Store. As the woman was walking to the store she saw a Man. The woman sees a gun on the ground. The woman then picks up the gun from the ground and shoots the Man.

This is a prime example what people do with the bible all the time. The will not read the whole book. but they will pick parts of it to bash it.

I answered your question. Now answer mine. What do we do with the many more inaccuracies of the bible, or do you set them aside in favor of your cherries you have picked?

[Grayswandir]

STOP SPEAKING IN ABSOLUTES, YOU LITTLE PIECE OF SITH!

It's not because some far-right people weren't religious that all far-right people aren't. Take Franco as an example of religious far-right. Anti-far-right people being religious doesn't exclude far-right people from being religious too.
I don’t think I’m the one speaking in absolutes here, and neither are you. I think Renegade is :P

[Renegade]

Mike if your belief in the bible hinges on "springs in the sea" then I have a nice timeshare to sell you.

If that is the only evidence you can come up with, then that is sad.

Enjoy the comfort food. Be careful of eating too much sugar!

[Renegade]

But none of the bible states that. "My guess is, just like how they believe god created the earth" The bible says how they believed the oceans where created. So now what you are doing is trying to warp it around to make facts seem fiction.

Have you not notice everything has a perfect balance to it? all life everywhere has a perfect balance. Now let look at science. any time you randomly create anything there is no balance to it it is always chaotic. unless you have a controlled environment. But no science experiment will work outside the controlled environment. My point is the perfect balance we have is created.


That is another fallacy. We have nothing to compare your "balance" to, because this is literally the ONLY reality we know.

I guess you should praise your god for all of the balance he brings via his words, actions, and inactions. Wash away in a flood those that don't believe!

Give me a break.

[Renegade]

Religious folks by their very nature unfortunately often lack critical thinking skills. I mean, that is the point of "faith" right, have "faith" and disregard everything else.

So this argument is kind of pointless, because for every inaccuracy I could present from the bible there will be a hand waving away of it.

SPRINGS I tell you, SPRINGS!

[Grayswandir]

How do you reconcile your claim that religious people lack critical thinking skills when physicists are the scientists who are most likely to believe in God? You’re nor arguing against religion here; you’re arguing against fundamentalism.

[Mike]

I mean. Try not to diss science or just throw it all on the same boat. Science is quite a broad word, is there something your more specific with?

No, I am not any expert, Nor do I claim to be if that is what you are asking. Like I said, I just follow what is in God word. I do not follow a group.

[Renegade]

How do you reconcile your claim that religious people lack critical thinking skills when physicists are the scientists who are most likely to believe in God? You’re nor arguing against religion here; you’re arguing against fundamentalism.

This sounds like fake news to me. Are you saying physicists have the highest chance of belief in god among all scientists? Sure 5% may be higher than 4%, but what about all of the other scientists who reject the christian fantasy?

[Mike]

Mike if your belief in the bible hinges on "springs in the sea" then I have a nice timeshare to sell you.

If that is the only evidence you can come up with, then that is sad.

Enjoy the comfort food. Be careful of eating too much sugar!

ROFLOL you are to much. My point has been the same with you Read the Book before bashing the book. Every post has shown me you have not read it. this is meant for Rene only. some of you I can tell you have read it and know what you are talking about.

Rene you don't have to believe it. You don't have to agree with it. Just Read it before trashing it. Don't give me the BS you have because your statements are prof you have not. I know people who have Read it and still don't believe it so be it. But they at least know what they are talking about. You talk just to talk argue just to argue and never have any relevant facts. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

In other words I am done talking to a child.

[SuperJack]

No, I am not any expert, Nor do I claim to be if that is what you are asking. Like I said, I just follow what is in God word. I do not follow a group.

Just saying to claim science has no balance is unfair and untrue. Science doesn't just exist in experiments. ^^ If you want to know more about science i don't mind sharing what I know with you ^^ people always assume it's science Vs religion. But there is nothing to stop them from co-existing. Nothing stops you from being a scientist and believing in God/gods/religion.

[SuperJack]

Please can people make more clear weather their talking about Christianity or religion or god as in a greater bring but not specifically of a certain religion

[SuperJack]

This sounds like fake news to me. Are you saying physicists have the highest chance of belief in god among all scientists? Sure 5% may be higher than 4%, but what about all of the other scientists who reject the christian fantasy?

Maybe they include non-organized religious beliefs or include dead scientists.

[Mike]

Just saying to claim science has no balance is unfair and untrue. Science doesn't just exist in experiments. ^^ If you want to know more about science i don't mind sharing what I know with you ^^ people always assume it's science Vs religion. But there is nothing to stop them from co-existing. Nothing stops you from being a scientist and believing in God/gods/religion.

This is intelligent Conversions. TY SupperJack. BTW I agree with you and this statement. I admit I may not choice my wording as I should. You are right my statement was not Good or correct. I should have proof read it before posting it.

[Mike]

Please can people make more clear weather their talking about Christianity or religion or god as in a greater bring but not specifically of a certain religion

Super I think we are very close to being on the same page. I do like the posts you have made.

[Grayswandir]

https://www.livescience.com/379-scientists-belief-god-varies-starkly-discipline.html
This site says physicists reject belief in God at a rate of 38%, whereas social scientists believe at a rate of 31%.
So they’re not the most likely. I wonder if I can ask the person who told me that to give me a source.
Regardless, still much higher than you’d expect if religious people lacked critical thinking skills :P

[Renegade]

ROFLOL you are to much. My point has been the same with you Read the Book before bashing the book. Every post has shown me you have not read it. this is meant for Rene only. some of you I can tell you have read it and know what you are talking about.

Rene you don't have to believe it. You don't have to agree with it. Just Read it before trashing it. Don't give me the BS you have because your statements are prof you have not. I know people who have Read it and still don't believe it so be it. But they at least know what they are talking about. You talk just to talk argue just to argue and never have any relevant facts. Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

In other words I am done talking to a child.

Springs! I tell you! Springs!

Ignore everything else about the bible, I find one thing that is true!!!!

Give me a break, and learn some proper spelling.

[Grayswandir]

Just saying to claim science has no balance is unfair and untrue. Science doesn't just exist in experiments. ^^ If you want to know more about science i don't mind sharing what I know with you ^^ people always assume it's science Vs religion. But there is nothing to stop them from co-existing. Nothing stops you from being a scientist and believing in God/gods/religion.
+100000 (tel:+100000). So much. So many people don’t get this lol

[Grayswandir]

I love the fact that my phone thinks that is a phone number.

[SuperJack]

Super I think we are very close to being on the same page. I do like the posts you have made.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the Bible. Any religion that claims human have free will which includes the ability to defy god. Yet then go to trust what a human has written or said and that it's not possible for their words or papers to have been intercepted by one who isn't by gods words. Is Flawed.

If one admits their book isn't perfect and has been wrong then I have less quarrel with them. It is completely fine to take the better aspects out of them and use these to set a good example.

I'm also against any god that will punish me just for not believing in them even if I lived a good and giving life.

[OzyWho]

(ftr, I havent read 90% of this thread)


This is my point, To many people want to twist Gods word to what they like. The Pharisees where a prime example of that. and to this day we have people still using what they did in the name of God. This does not make Gods word bad only the people abusing it.
Mike
Do I understand you correct that the Bible should be taken in a literal sense?

I'm having trouble getting behind this idea. First of all - the video I posted earlier showcased numerous amount of contradictions within the Bible. Secondly - would you expect something to be taken seriously which contents changes when people start to not approve of them? (Old Testament)
Was the change from Old to New testament due to "New Interpretations"? Makes me go :huh: when considering your "people want to twist Gods word to what they like" statement.

[Mike]

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the Bible. Any religion that claims human have free will which includes the ability to defy god. Yet then go to trust what a human has written or said and that it's not possible for their words or papers to have been intercepted by one who isn't by gods words. Is Flawed.

If one admits their book isn't perfect and has been wrong then I have less quarrel with them. It is completely fine to take the better aspects out of them and use these to set a good example.

I'm also against any god that will punish me just for not believing in them even if I lived a good and giving life.

I get that. I do believe in God you do not. That is your right. But I respect you because you talk with Intelligence. You try to submit facts not BS. I still think we are on a similar page. Unless you do not agree with what you have already posted. I do not believe that is the case here.

Now on to the punish. that goes into the Salvation is not achieved by works alone. It is a matter of faith.

[Mike]

(ftr, I havent read 90% of this thread)


Mike
Do I understand you correct that the Bible should be taken in a literal sense?

I'm having trouble getting behind this idea. First of all - the video I posted earlier showcased numerous amount of contradictions within the Bible. Secondly - would you expect something to be taken seriously which contents changes when people start to not approve of them? (Old Testament)
Was the change from Old to New testament due to "New Interpretations"? Makes me go :huh: when considering your "people want to twist Gods word to what they like" statement.

The Old testament leads into the the New Testament. the Book of Hebrews does a great Job at helping us see how we move from OLD to New. The Old testament foretold The coming of Jesus(Jesus). Old required us to make sacrifices to have God forgive us for our sins. The New Gave us Jesus who was the Last sacrifice (The Son of God) and helped man kind move forward.

[Mike]

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe in the Bible. Any religion that claims human have free will which includes the ability to defy god. Yet then go to trust what a human has written or said and that it's not possible for their words or papers to have been intercepted by one who isn't by gods words. Is Flawed.

If one admits their book isn't perfect and has been wrong then I have less quarrel with them. It is completely fine to take the better aspects out of them and use these to set a good example.

I'm also against any god that will punish me just for not believing in them even if I lived a good and giving life.

This is where you and me are on opposite sides. But that is ok. I do not believe the Bible is Flawed. I used to be the exact same mindset you are in by this statement. I used to argue the same facts you are giving SuperJack. Another reason I respect your stance. I also know nothing I say here will change your mind on this. This is something you will need to find out on your own in your own time.

I just am enjoying being on the opposite side of this argument for the first time.

[OzyWho]

Now on to the punish. that goes into the Salvation is not achieved by works alone. It is a matter of faith.
"I don't respect a God who punishes me because I dont believe in him"
"It's a matter of faith"
Clearly


The Old testament leads into the the New Testament. the Book of Hebrews does a great Job at helping us see how we move from OLD to New. The Old testament foretold The coming of Jesus(Jesus). Old required us to make sacrifices to have God forgive us for our sins. The New Gave us Jesus who was the Last sacrifice (The Son of God) and helped man kind move forward.Fair, It seems idk what I was talking about. Picked up that misinformation somewhere. Btw, you ignored the 1st part of my post.

[Mike]

"I don't respect a God who punishes me because I dont believe in him"
"It's a matter of faith"
Clearly

Fair, It seems idk what I was talking about. Picked up that misinformation somewhere. Btw, you ignored the 1st part of my post.

Because I do not know how to answer that. sorry. Because you Do take God for his word yes. but Bible has a lot of Examples in it that is not meant to be taken literally and then some that are. So saying in whole should it be yes or no is not a question that can be Answered.

[OzyWho]

Because I do not know how to answer that. sorry. Because you Do take God for his word yes. but Bible has a lot of Examples in it that is not meant to be taken literally and then some that are. So saying in whole should it be yes or no is not a question that can be Answered.Case by case, huh?
When you judge the verses or whatever case by case, how can you tell that you're being rational instead of cherry-picking interpretation for a confirmation bias?

[Mike]

Case by case, huh?
When you judge the verses or whatever case by case, how can you tell that you're being rational instead of cherry-picking interpretation for a confirmation bias?

When you read it you will understand. The best way to understand any book is no short cuts. but to read it for yourself.

[SuperJack]

What caused your change Mike?

[yzb25]

Springs! I tell you! Springs!

Ignore everything else about the bible, I find one thing that is true!!!!

Give me a break, and learn some proper spelling.

bro you can't complain about site toxicity and then be a dick to ppl for their religious beliefs. It wouldn't matter if the dude advocated sharia law and stoning adulturers. He's still just some guy on the internet and winning an argument won't dEstRoY rEliGioN. Have you never heard of embodying the change you want to see?

[Grayswandir]

bro you can't complain about site toxicity and then be a dick to ppl for their religious beliefs. It wouldn't matter if the dude advocated sharia law and stoning adulturers. He's still just some guy on the internet and winning an argument won't dEstRoY rEliGioN. Have you never heard of embodying the change you want to see?
+1

[OzyWho]

+2



What's worse is that this was supposed to be the "Serious Discussion & Debate" forum section.
(though I myself have trouble being respectful too, but I try)

[Renegade]

-1

Nah you aren't going to blame me for how your friends behave here.

[yzb25]

-1

Nah you aren't going to blame me for how your friends behave here.

Your post is a little ambiguous, but no I'm not trying to suggest you're responsible for site toxicity. Not even half of it. That would be ridiculous.

[Renegade]

Your post is a little ambiguous, but no I'm not trying to suggest you're responsible for site toxicity. Not even half of it. That would be ridiculous.

Sarcasm?

[OzyWho]

Sarcasm?
He pointed out your hypocrisy, explaining reasonably how a certain behavior is part of the problem.
He never claimed you to be the only one at fault, that'd be ridiculous.

[DJarJar]

I get that. I do believe in God you do not. That is your right. But I respect you because you talk with Intelligence. You try to submit facts not BS. I still think we are on a similar page. Unless you do not agree with what you have already posted. I do not believe that is the case here.

Now on to the punish. that goes into the Salvation is not achieved by works alone. It is a matter of faith.

So why didn’t Jesus show up earlier? And why did he only show up in one part of the world? It seems pretty unfair, for example, that native Americans should have to burn in hell for another 1500 years before they even get exposed to Christianity.

I think a possible answer will be that those who were never exposed to god’s word are exempted from needing to believe, but this leads to a followup question: what counts as me being exposed enough? I mean if a missionary that can’t even speak my language just hands me a Bible that I don’t know how to read, would that be enough? So now I go to hell for poor linguistic skills?

[DJarJar]

Like out of curiosity are these islanders all going to hell even though they don’t know of Christianity? Do you consider this guy a hero? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau

[Mike]

So why didn’t Jesus show up earlier? And why did he only show up in one part of the world? It seems pretty unfair, for example, that native Americans should have to burn in hell for another 1500 years before they even get exposed to Christianity.

I think a possible answer will be that those who were never exposed to god’s word are exempted from needing to believe, but this leads to a followup question: what counts as me being exposed enough? I mean if a missionary that can’t even speak my language just hands me a Bible that I don’t know how to read, would that be enough? So now I go to hell for poor linguistic skills?

You make a lot of valid points. The Blind are they at fault for walking passed someone passed out on the ground and not helping them? No they are not. The same goes for salvation. Jesus charged us with a task to go out and spread the word. In your case you are not blind, but it is your choice to accept Jesus into your heart or not. The Bible teaches man kind to help out one another.

[Mike]

Like out of curiosity are these islanders all going to hell even though they don’t know of Christianity? Do you consider this guy a hero? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Chau

I do not know it is not for me to decide who goes to hell and who does not. That is the problem with a lot of Christians. A lot of them want to tell people you are going to hell. That is wrong. And yes the man gave his life to try and help others. I would consider someone doing that a hero.

[DJarJar]

You make a lot of valid points. The Blind are they at fault for walking passed someone passed out on the ground and not helping them? No they are not. The same goes for salvation. Jesus charged us with a task to go out and spread the word. In your case you are not blind, but it is your choice to accept Jesus into your heart or not. The Bible teaches man kind to help out one another.

alright so again I am curious where the cutoff point is. If I've never heard of jesus then I'm fine. But what if I've just heard his name but that's it? Or just a couple of stories about him? or a lot about him but not the rest of the bible? etc.

And isn't it kind of paradoxical that if nobody ever teaches me about jesus, then I am good to go, but as soon as they tell me about him I have to believe or I'm screwed? Like, missionary work is essentially cruel then because you're taking salvation AWAY from people.

[DJarJar]

Following this logic ladder I think I can say Abortions are objectively good because they send the fetuses to heaven before they have a chance to lose out on salvation during life! I mean helping others get to heaven sounds like a good thing. So if you are already doomed to hell for your sins, the best way you can help your fellow man is by killing as many babies as you can find before they do something that would get them sent to hell!

[Mike]

alright so again I am curious where the cutoff point is. If I've never heard of jesus then I'm fine. But what if I've just heard his name but that's it? Or just a couple of stories about him? or a lot about him but not the rest of the bible? etc.

And isn't it kind of paradoxical that if nobody ever teaches me about jesus, then I am good to go, but as soon as they tell me about him I have to believe or I'm screwed? Like, missionary work is essentially cruel then because you're taking salvation AWAY from people.

Well now you are getting into stuff you would have to ask a pastor about. I do not want to mislead you. You are asking good questions but I do not want to give you wrong answers.

[Mike]

Following this logic ladder I think I can say Abortions are objectively good because they send the fetuses to heaven before they have a chance to lose out on salvation during life! I mean helping others get to heaven sounds like a good thing. So if you are already doomed to hell for your sins, the best way you can help your fellow man is by killing as many babies as you can find before they do something that would get them sent to hell!

My personal thought is Abortions is wrong on so many levels.

[Mike]

Sin is in us all. The key is the choices we make in life. Everyone has a choice.

[OzyWho]

Following this logic ladder I think I can say Abortions are objectively good because they send the fetuses to heaven before they have a chance to lose out on salvation during life! I mean helping others get to heaven sounds like a good thing. So if you are already doomed to hell for your sins, the best way you can help your fellow man is by killing as many babies as you can find before they do something that would get them sent to hell!
The dark side is s curious thing, Darth Jar Jar Binks. It keeps our minds open to ideas that are out of reach for everyone else. SeemsGood

[Grayswandir]

This is why I like Judaism better. Jews believe that righteous gentiles will be saved :)

[OzyWho]

This is why I like Judaism better. Jews believe that righteous gentiles will be saved :)
I like Hinduism better. There's something romantic about the idea of gathering karma during this life, to have a better next life.

[Grayswandir]

According to Jewish teachings, hell is not entirely physical; rather, it can be compared to a very intense feeling of shame. People are ashamed of their misdeeds and this constitutes suffering which makes up for the bad deeds. When one has so deviated from the will of God (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Judaism), one is said to be in Gehinnom. This is not meant to refer to some point in the future, but to the very present moment. The gates of teshuva (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshuva) (return) are said to be always open, and so one can align his will with that of God at any moment. Being out of alignment with God's will is itself a punishment according to the Torah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah).

I love this precept. I think the idea of Hell being a situation rather than a physical place is very realistic. A lot of people end up in hell at various points in their lives. But you can always choose to leave Hell.

[OzyWho]

I love this precept. I think the idea of Hell being a situation rather than a physical place is very realistic. A lot of people end up in hell at various points in their lives. But you can always choose to leave Hell.
How better to feel your regrets than to relive them over and over, like in the show Lucifer? Kappa

[SuperJack]

I'm quite cruel when it comes to human life. I believe memories are what make an identity. If one has no memories, or no ability to make new ones I consider it fine to end their life to stop any further suffering or wasted resources.
Along with also allowing a life to develop in an environment that doesn't want them or will cause them to suffer.

[Grayswandir]

How better to feel your regrets than to relive them over and over, like in the show Lucifer? Kappa
That sounds like actual hell.

[OzyWho]

That sounds like actual hell.
Yeah, it is.
I feel like my sadistic joke didn't go over as well as planned. :S

[SuperJack]

Yeah, it is.
I feel like my sadistic joke didn't go over as well as planned. :S

Lucifer is sexy. Nice taste you have.

[Helz]

I don't expect any love here for what I'm trying to say, this site is after all a known far right cesspool.

Totally unrelated but I think most of the people here lean left. I wonder if you can set your bias aside and consider what it means that you consider a political affiliation an insult or some sort of morally reprehensible condition.