70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground.

[Voss]

https://twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/1325203148684718086


When will the military democratic radical left antifa learn to protest peacefully?

[Voss]

gn. feel free to move this to circle jerk @other moderators.

[Helz]

2766427664

What I found more amusing was how people burning down businesses and looting were referred to as protests by some outlets but this incident is called ‘carnage’ and ‘rioting’

The way the media try’s to spin stuff makes me sick

I will point out that there were republicans trashing hundred thousand dollar media cameras and some other vandalism even if it was nowhere close to what we saw in the pre-election riots. I’m curious to see how a number of people on this forum react to this post in a day where people view any statement against their political affiliation as a personal attack on themselves

[Marshmallow Marshall]

2766427664

What I found more amusing was how people burning down businesses and looting were referred to as protests by some outlets but this incident is called ‘carnage’ and ‘rioting’

The way the media try’s to spin stuff makes me sick

I will point out that there were republicans trashing hundred thousand dollar media cameras and some other vandalism even if it was nowhere close to what we saw in the pre-election riots. I’m curious to see how a number of people on this forum react to this post in a day where people view any statement against their political affiliation as a personal attack on themselves

The media are indeed terribly partial and biased, which fuels the fire, but that doesn't make those rioters any less rioting, just how it doesn't make those burning down businesses in the name of "fighting racism" (lol, like that's how you do it) "peaceful protesters", assuming that's what you're talking about.

Also, there's a difference between burning and looting businesses and assaulting the Capitol of the United States. There's an extremely strong symbol being attacked in the last case, while there's some money to be made and some "fun" to be had in the first.

[oops_ur_dead]

2766427664

What I found more amusing was how people burning down businesses and looting were referred to as protests by some outlets but this incident is called ‘carnage’ and ‘rioting’

The way the media try’s to spin stuff makes me sick

I will point out that there were republicans trashing hundred thousand dollar media cameras and some other vandalism even if it was nowhere close to what we saw in the pre-election riots. I’m curious to see how a number of people on this forum react to this post in a day where people view any statement against their political affiliation as a personal attack on themselves

https://i.imgur.com/uMfihla.png

Helz: wtf i searched the internet for "cnn capitol riots" and all the media was liberal-learning articles calling the events riots???? wtf media bias confirmed???

Bizarre to me that you think that people fucking up a few Targets is somehow worse than a large group of people breaching the Capitol forcing the Senate to evacuate. I do have to wonder what the right would have do to in America for you to actually admit that they did something bad without saying "well actually left bad too".

[oops_ur_dead]

For the record, I think these events were great because it shows the fantastic hypocrisy and hilarity of the right. For instance, we get to see people on the right, and especially centrists, trying to justify how these events were just as bad as the BLM protests/riots but no worse. I'm sure in a couple of hours, there are going to be people trying to deflect by drawing attention instead to how Trump was banned off Twitter for 12 hours, and how that's literally just as bad as the holocaust.

Also illustrated how chickenshit and biased the cops are, given that they fortified the fuck out of the Capitol when the BLM stuff was going on, but this time around they had like 3 cops to defend it during an event that was planned for weeks, and the cops straight up opened the fences/gates to let people into the Capitol.

[Grayswandir]

But it says Carnage in the first hit

[oops_ur_dead]

But it says Carnage in the first hit

I don't see your point.

[Grayswandir]

https://i.imgur.com/uMfihla.png

Helz: wtf i searched the internet for "cnn capitol riots" and all the media was liberal-learning articles calling the events riots???? wtf media bias confirmed???

Bizarre to me that you think that people fucking up a few Targets is somehow worse than a large group of people breaching the Capitol forcing the Senate to evacuate. I do have to wonder what the right would have do to in America for you to actually admit that they did something bad without saying "well actually left bad too".

rofl Helz was trashing the media for calling them ‘carnages’ and ‘riots’ when they called the BLM riots ‘protests’, and you literally send a screenshot of them calling the riots... carnages and riots. xD

That’s not what Helz is saying.

[Grayswandir]

I don’t mean to go on my critique of reading again, but honestly, this is yet another argument that could’ve been avoided had ppl spent like 30 extra seconds to think about Helz’s post before commenting.

[oops_ur_dead]

Dude did you miss the gigantic red circle? That was Helz's own screenshot, he literally searched for "cnn capitol riots" and got media articles calling them riots. I don't know what else he expected.

There was also media calling the BLM events "riots" if you went on the internet and searched for "fox blm riots" but nobody felt the need to point that out for some reason.

[Grayswandir]

Oh lol I missed that, my bad. Guess it’s my turn to say I should’ve taken the time to read more properly 🤠

[Voss]

I'm not sure why anyone's surprised that an uber left wing media outlet CNN would call these riots and terrorists. I'm just waiting for anyone out of the group that usually worships the president's toenails to say

"Capitol vandalism is bad."

or maybe even

"There were elements to this that were not peaceful."

But that might be too nuanced of a statement for the sc2mafia community.

[oops_ur_dead]

I'm not sure why anyone's surprised that an uber left wing media outlet CNN would call these riots and terrorists. I'm just waiting for anyone out of the group that usually worships the president's toenails to say

"Capitol vandalism is bad."

or maybe even

"There were elements to this that were not peaceful."

But that might be too nuanced of a statement for the sc2mafia community.

Hard mode: Say either of those on their own, without dressing it up with a statement about how the left does bad things too, such as talking about BLM riots.

I object to your statement that CNN is "uber left wing", though. They're very strictly liberal.

[yzb25]

if an election was rigged, serious protests would be justified. Maybe even storming congress and shit. The right is genuinely convinced the election was rigged to allow a puppet of the Chinese Communist Party to win. Their actions are awful but make total sense within their delusion.

What can I say, this is why you don't lie about rigged elections, especially when you've tried like 70+ court cases and they've all failed, with both right wing and left wing judges. When politicians start openly throwing shade on the outcomes of elections, shit like this happens.

[Voss]

Okay maybe I was too exaggerating there. I'm really really hoping this doesn't devolve the thread but I'll say this. My experience with CNN is that they also have trouble being presentationally objective, but Faux is blatantly worse. And while I usually refuse to watch either, I wanted to get that sensationalism yesterday and turned to CNN.

Also, shoutout to Kelly Loeffler for not objecting to the results, even after she had lost her Georgia senate race. Way to not be a sore loser.

[oops_ur_dead]

if an election was rigged, serious protests would be justified. Maybe even storming congress and shit. The right is genuinely convinced the election was rigged to allow a puppet of the Chinese Communist Party to win. Their actions are awful but make total sense within their delusion.

What can I say, this is why you don't lie about rigged elections, especially when you've tried like 70+ court cases and they've all failed, with both right wing and left wing judges. When politicians start openly throwing shade on the outcomes of elections, shit like this happens.

This hits the nail right on the head. If there was actual fraud to the scale that is claimed, and the election was stolen, this is the least of what the response should be.

However, this is why all of this election fraud bullshit that's being spread is so dangerous. I've seen right-wingers that disingenuously claim that this is just bog-standard validation of results and that if the election was legitimate why would anyone try to oppose these challenges, in an attempt to gaslight people into thinking that the intent is anything other than to throw shit at the walls to see what sticks and to attempt a coup of the government.

These challenges to the election were never legitimate challenges, not a single person claiming that shit would have gone home at the end of it all and said "well guess the libs were right, Trump lost after all". These people, including Trump himself, are deluded to the point that they believe that a Trump loss is simply impossible. And then the result is that you have people who believe this to the point that they are willing to die bleeding wrapped in a Trump flag.

I feel bad for the people who have been brainwashed to this degree, and have lost their lives in defence of this con. Shame on anyone who tried so hard to perpetrate this nonsense.

[Grayswandir]

What a wholesome conclusion. Maybe there is hope for this forum yet.

[Helz]

https://i.imgur.com/uMfihla.png

Helz: wtf i searched the internet for "cnn capitol riots" and all the media was liberal-learning articles calling the events riots???? wtf media bias confirmed???

Bizarre to me that you think that people fucking up a few Targets is somehow worse than a large group of people breaching the Capitol forcing the Senate to evacuate. I do have to wonder what the right would have do to in America for you to actually admit that they did something bad without saying "well actually left bad too".

I don’t see how that invalidates my point at all. I would say this was an objectively much more ‘peaceful’ protest yet CNN framed the situation as carnage and rioting while when people were literally throwing bombs into government buildings, looting stores and assaulting police they framed it as a ‘protest.’ I honestly doubt there’s a person on this forum who is even surprised about that pattern; or that Fox is doing the opposite.

If you would like to have a conversation about the right doing something wrong I think the presidential pardons were some of the most overtly corrupt behavior I have ever seen in America.

I do understand where you are coming from though. I have a friend that’s all wrapped up in the trump nonsense and I literally showed him court transcripts and video of trumps head lawyer flat out telling a judge they are not claiming election fraud and he still refuses to accept there was not fraud. He even managed to connect that van bombing to the election with some pretty insane logic.

I am curious though. Do people really view the incident at the capitol as worse behavior than the blm/antifa riots? I personally find that pretty absurd but I would like to hear the logic behind such a view.

[yzb25]

I don’t see how that invalidates my point at all. I would say this was an objectively much more ‘peaceful’ protest yet CNN framed the situation as carnage and rioting while when people were literally throwing bombs into government buildings, looting stores and assaulting police they framed it as a ‘protest.’ I honestly doubt there’s a person on this forum who is even surprised about that pattern; or that Fox is doing the opposite.

If you would like to have a conversation about the right doing something wrong I think the presidential pardons were some of the most overtly corrupt behavior I have ever seen in America.

I do understand where you are coming from though. I have a friend that’s all wrapped up in the trump nonsense and I literally showed him court transcripts and video of trumps head lawyer flat out telling a judge they are not claiming election fraud and he still refuses to accept there was not fraud. He even managed to connect that van bombing to the election with some pretty insane logic.

I am curious though. Do people really view the incident at the capitol as worse behavior than the blm/antifa riots? I personally find that pretty absurd but I would like to hear the logic behind such a view.

Not that I feel much sympathy for most of these state officials, but attacking government buildings is a very different kind of riot to when the common peasants burn eachother's shit. I wouldn't go as far as to say worse, but different. If things went too far, it would carry the threat of a thousand much worse riots. Which is why that corpse-turtle Mitch Mcconnell has magically become deeply concerned about due process and election slander after his ass came a little to close to getting put on a pike XD.

And I at the very least feel bad for the janitors, secretaries and other unrelated ppl who got caught up in the government's crap.

[SuperJack]

I believe that trying to figure out which is worse is difficult, because of how you measure it and what they stand for.

BML where riots and protests against their belief police brutality and racism.
Capitol riots and protests where for the belief of a fraudulent election.

BML where long lasting protests which a minority abused to riot and loot
Capitol where a short-term protest which a minority abused to invade the Capitol.

BML damaged peoples lives and lively hood.
Capitol damaged democracy and the country's foundations.



So, what is worse it is totally depend on how you measure it and what your opinion is in what is more important. And to argue is only really a aggressive way to tell someone what opinion more important.

[Helz]

Not that I feel much sympathy for most of these state officials, but attacking government buildings is a very different kind of riot to when the common peasants burn eachother's shit.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uw_MftwvRL8

Here is a video showing how a guy was tracked down by reddit users after he threw a literal home made bomb into a government building. I think you should watch it and reevaluate what you said.

The entire point of this thread is detailed in the title. There are lots of pissy Republicans, many of which believe the fundamental democratic process has been compromised but you do not see city’s burning to the ground or looting or people using lasers in an attempt to blind cops.

I really don’t care about each sides motivation. It’s not what your cause is that’s the issue, it’s how you fight for your cause. What happened at the capitol was wrong but I see it as objectively much more peaceful. On both the mass scale of a nation and the micro scale of that one protest/riot you see a significant difference in the behaviors of the two political party’s. I feel like that should objectively be acknowledged.

Just imagine what would be going on right now if Trump had won the election.

[SuperJack]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uw_MftwvRL8

Here is a video showing how a guy was tracked down by reddit users after he threw a literal home made bomb into a government building. I think you should watch it and reevaluate what you said.

The entire point of this thread is detailed in the title. There are lots of pissy Republicans, many of which believe the fundamental democratic process has been compromised but you do not see city’s burning to the ground or looting or people using lasers in an attempt to blind cops.

I really don’t care about each sides motivation. It’s not what your cause is that’s the issue, it’s how you fight for your cause. What happened at the capitol was wrong but I see it as objectively much more peaceful. On both the mass scale of a nation and the micro scale of that one protest/riot you see a significant difference in the behaviors of the two political party’s. I feel like that should objectively be acknowledged.

Just imagine what would be going on right now if Trump had won the election.

Is it fair to compared the two? They both had different origins and different goals. And both would of been taken advantage of a minority of each side, that may not even have the same reasonings as the protesters.

As far as I'm aware, the majority of protests will have a small number of people who go to the extreme or take advantage of it. If a large scale protests from the Trump followers where on the scale of BML, you would get equal amount of destruction. Same goes for BML if it was on the same scale as the Capitol you would most likely get similar levels of rioting and invasion.

Whenever a reactional protest occurs there will be those who will use it for devious desires, to then blame left side or right side for the destruction isn't really the truth. (Par exceptions where Leaders are feeding the flame on purpose)

Also, couldn't you point too 2016 regarding a Trump election?

[Helz]

Is it fair to compared the two? They both had different origins and different goals. And both would of been taken advantage of a minority of each side, that may not even have the same reasonings as the protesters.

As far as I'm aware, the majority of protests will have a small number of people who go to the extreme or take advantage of it. If a large scale protests from the Trump followers where on the scale of BML, you would get equal amount of destruction. Same goes for BML if it was on the same scale as the Capitol you would most likely get similar levels of rioting and invasion.

Whenever a reactional protest occurs there will be those who will use it for devious desires, to then blame left side or right side for the destruction isn't really the truth. (Par exceptions where Leaders are feeding the flame on purpose)

Also, couldn't you point too 2016 regarding a Trump election?

Sure there will always be idiots. Yesterday I watched some guy stack up a bunch of extremely expensive video equipment, put a tarp over it and try to light it on fire.

My point (and the point of this thread) is that there’s a noticeable difference in the behaviors of the two sides. There have been quite a few rally’s and protests by republicans sense the election but you don’t see much media coverage because there’s no lines of police in riot gear pushing a mob that’s throwing bricks at them. If anything I would say the lack of coverage itself points to the basic difference we are talking about.

There is not a massive difference in the amount of republicans vs Democrats but we see a very different reaction on a large scale. On the most basic level the lack of civil disorder speaks to that.

I wouldn’t be surprised if republicans have some crazy hillbilly with a rifle who decides to ‘protest’ with a bullet but when that happens I don’t think the same equivocations will be drawn.

I would also point out the political climate in 2016 was very different than it was this year. If Trump has won we would have seen some crazy stuff.

[SuperJack]

Sure there will always be idiots. Yesterday I watched some guy stack up a bunch of extremely expensive video equipment, put a tarp over it and try to light it on fire.

My point (and the point of this thread) is that there’s a noticeable difference in the behaviors of the two sides. There have been quite a few rally’s and protests by republicans sense the election but you don’t see much media coverage because there’s no lines of police in riot gear pushing a mob that’s throwing bricks at them. If anything I would say the lack of coverage itself points to the basic difference we are talking about.

There is not a massive difference in the amount of republicans vs Democrats but we see a very different reaction on a large scale. On the most basic level the lack of civil disorder speaks to that.

I wouldn’t be surprised if republicans have some crazy hillbilly with a rifle who decides to ‘protest’ with a bullet but when that happens I don’t think the same equivocations will be drawn.

I would also point out the political climate in 2016 was very different than it was this year. If Trump has won we would have seen some crazy stuff.

There isn't a noticeable difference due to politics sides. There is a different scale and different ignition along with different endings. Trying to compare a bear to a shark is perhaps absolutely stupid. Yes sure they are both animals but it's illogical to compare them to see which is worse.

Both side have a majority that will do things respective, just as each side have a minority that shit on society.

Both sides have protests which are peaceful. Here we talk about Organized protests as opposed to reactional protests. Organized protests tend to be the more peaceful protests, as they feed off people's rationality and are planned along with law enforcement.
Reactional protests feed off emotion, these are the most chaotic ones than tend to contain more vandalism and crime.

And yes, the media will always twist the truth to whatever will give them the most customers and profit.

So no, there isn't a difference between political protests, it's all the type of protest and what benifits the media and

[Helz]

I disagree. My buddy’s kid is a firefighter in LA and after the election there were lots of hotels booked out with people who had prepped to riot. Even though trump lost they apparently didn’t want the Molotov cocktails they made go to waste so he still had to chase down some arson and put out fires as they celebrated.

That’s the exact same event on both sides- the election result. But one side had groups of people planning out and setting up to raise hell. There is no reactionary nature to going to a city you don’t live in and coordinating an attack. You could even call that straight up terrorism given it’s using violence for a political end.

I do agree that each side will have its extremist groups within it but nothing changes the objective fact that there’s some 70 million pissed off republicans and no city’s are burning down, no cops being blinded, no bombs being thrown into federal buildings, no stores being looted. I don’t think anyone would make the argument that those things would not be occurring right now if Trump has won and given that difference is centered around political sides I would argue that the behavioral differences can be connected to their respective political groups.

I am not saying republicans are more moral or better people or anything of the sort. I fully expect some nut jobs with a rifle or a bomb to do something stupid in the next few years but I will say the objective information in front of us suggests a very clear pattern in how each side ‘protests.’

[oops_ur_dead]

Why is it that every single thread about some criticism of the right always turns into deflections and whataboutisms? I see this constantly.

The BLM protests/riots aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand, why are they being brought up?

[SuperJack]

I disagree. My buddy’s kid is a firefighter in LA and after the election there were lots of hotels booked out with people who had prepped to riot. Even though trump lost they apparently didn’t want the Molotov cocktails they made go to waste so he still had to chase down some arson and put out fires as they celebrated.

That’s the exact same event on both sides- the election result. But one side had groups of people planning out and setting up to raise hell. There is no reactionary nature to going to a city you don’t live in and coordinating an attack. You could even call that straight up terrorism given it’s using violence for a political end.

I do agree that each side will have its extremist groups within it but nothing changes the objective fact that there’s some 70 million pissed off republicans and no city’s are burning down, no cops being blinded, no bombs being thrown into federal buildings, no stores being looted. I don’t think anyone would make the argument that those things would not be occurring right now if Trump has won and given that difference is centered around political sides I would argue that the behavioral differences can be connected to their respective political groups.

I am not saying republicans are more moral or better people or anything of the sort. I fully expect some nut jobs with a rifle or a bomb to do something stupid in the next few years but I will say the objective information in front of us suggests a very clear pattern in how each side ‘protests.’


So again, a deranged person who had weapons means that you can now place everyone who booked a space in a hotel in the same league.

And yet, there was a gathering with people planning and setting out to raise hell (Which would of used the rally held in the city as a stepping stone) And yes short-term solo/small group planning is reactional due to the fears that things won't go the right way.

The big problem with the republicans is they are all split up on who to blame, or what they hate currently. Not all republicans think the election is fraudulent. Some of them hate trump, some of them hate the republican party, some of them hate the republicans who didn't side with trump. They are currently a split base with no true direction to where to place the blame.

And once again, it roles back to scale. The scale of the Capitol was small, and had a very short endgame. Yet there are already 4 deaths, multiple bombs, plans to take hostages and god knows what national security data was breached. But it was short lived because the work in the Capitol was finished and the Law enforcement didn't have enough time to organize a more threating response.

With the BLM protests, you had a toxic cycle of fighting against police brutality, which then was used against them, and escalated it more. Add in the factors of it being a racial movement, and anti- police violence movement where all states have had their share of incidents caused the scale to expand, add with the goals not only being undefined but there was no end date or easy goal to reach meant the event scaled up even more. Then it was given a hard political spin to worsen the stability.

The objective information is definitely suggestive, because you are selecting which events you wish to account for. Want to include abortion/climate change/gay rights/anti war protests for the Dems? Or are you just happy selecting the more violent and reactional protests comped to all republican protests?

[Helz]

Why is it that every single thread about some criticism of the right always turns into deflections and whataboutisms? I see this constantly.

The BLM protests/riots aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand, why are they being brought up?

The discussion title is "70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground." I don't think there are many bits of conversation that could be any more directly related.

I do feel like whataboutisms is an issue on both sides. Maybe more so for republicans. I think a larger portion of republicans justifications boils down to a little kid saying 'we they did it too' although I am not sure how you could call pointing to BLM protests/riots whataboutisms in the slightest given the thread name..
So again, a deranged person who had weapons means that you can now place everyone who booked a space in a hotel in the same league.

And yet, there was a gathering with people planning and setting out to raise hell (Which would of used the rally held in the city as a stepping stone) And yes short-term solo/small group planning is reactional due to the fears that things won't go the right way.

The big problem with the republicans is they are all split up on who to blame, or what they hate currently. Not all republicans think the election is fraudulent. Some of them hate trump, some of them hate the republican party, some of them hate the republicans who didn't side with trump. They are currently a split base with no true direction to where to place the blame.

And once again, it roles back to scale. The scale of the Capitol was small, and had a very short endgame. Yet there are already 4 deaths, multiple bombs, plans to take hostages and god knows what national security data was breached. But it was short lived because the work in the Capitol was finished and the Law enforcement didn't have enough time to organize a more threating response.

With the BLM protests, you had a toxic cycle of fighting against police brutality, which then was used against them, and escalated it more. Add in the factors of it being a racial movement, and anti- police violence movement where all states have had their share of incidents caused the scale to expand, add with the goals not only being undefined but there was no end date or easy goal to reach meant the event scaled up even more. Then it was given a hard political spin to worsen the stability.

The objective information is definitely suggestive, because you are selecting which events you wish to account for. Want to include abortion/climate change/gay rights/anti war protests for the Dems? Or are you just happy selecting the more violent and reactional protests comped to all republican protests?
It was not 'a person' or 'a small group of people.' Watch the riot footage and you can find large masses of people equipped with gas masks, radios and home made shields. Some of the groups even appear to have trained to move as a unit with their shield walls and have established group tasks / tactics. I am not sure how you can call that reactionary. I have never seen an event and on a whim built bombs, anti riot control gear and coordinated a group of people with tatics. That takes planning, coordination, and time.

I am not saying there were not peaceful protests. There were absolutely tons of them. I am saying that the nation would be burning right now if the election had gone a different way and that reflects a difference in how political groups fight for their cause on a large scale.

You can bring in as many factors as you want but it does not change the fact that democratic political protests had mass vandalism, looting, and violence and thats been much less so in republican political protests. Include every protest in the last year on both sides if you would like but it does not change anything. Your basically saying I am cherry picking my data but I do not believe I have once said 'excluding this information' or 'if you only look at this' in any way.

I am not sure why you are so dead set on insisting the blatant pattern of vandalism does not exist as of right now. I could totally see if you were making the argument that we will have to see how republicans behave over the next 4 years under a democratic president; but it still doesn't change the information right now.

[SuperJack]

It was not 'a person' or 'a small group of people.' Watch the riot footage and you can find large masses of people equipped with gas masks, radios and home made shields. Some of the groups even appear to have trained to move as a unit with their shield walls and have established group tasks / tactics. I am not sure how you can call that reactionary. I have never seen an event and on a whim built bombs, anti riot control gear and coordinated a group of people with tatics. That takes planning, coordination, and time.

I am not saying there were not peaceful protests. There were absolutely tons of them. I am saying that the nation would be burning right now if the election had gone a different way and that reflects a difference in how political groups fight for their cause on a large scale.

You can bring in as many factors as you want but it does not change the fact that democratic political protests had mass vandalism, looting, and violence and thats been much less so in republican political protests. Include every protest in the last year on both sides if you would like but it does not change anything. Your basically saying I am cherry picking my data but I do not believe I have once said 'excluding this information' or 'if you only look at this' in any way.

I am not sure why you are so dead set on insisting the blatant pattern of vandalism does not exist as of right now. I could totally see if you were making the argument that we will have to see how republicans behave over the next 4 years under a democratic president; but it still doesn't change the information right now.

Again, you are comparing a large long scale event to a small short scale event. Yes Obviously the bigger event is going to be worse than the smaller one.
People will organize groups, tactics and equipment during reactional protests once enough time has elapsed. They didn't storm out day 1 of the protests with all this organization, it was a reaction against the force that was used against them.
And its a poor comparison to compare what would happen if the election had gone another way because its clear to the world what sort of leader Trump has been.
One of the main reasons there are not mass-scale protests right now from the republican voters are because they are so divided in who to blame.
Where as the other riots had very easy relatable reasons (Racism & Police brutality).
We in the UK had riots for similar reasons, Police killed a black man.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_England_riots#Police_shooting_of_Mark_Duggan.
The difference is that the US riots where heavily twisted into Dem vs Reps. It is vastly unfair to call BLM a democratic protest. And it's horrible that it viewed as such.

The argument I am making, is that neither democrats or republicans have better/worse riots than each other and it's manipulative to name it so.
Both sides would of had people of both sides taking part just to take advantage of it.
What you have, is the scale of the protests/riots which determine how bad the protests/riots are.



Also going to stop replying/posting this topic because my opinion is said and no longer matters.

[StarGunner]

Hey guys just reading thru some of your comments. I think that this should have never happened. Not only were the White House police unprepared for such a large gathering of people, but President Trump is also in the wrong here for pumping up the rioters and sending them to the White House. Very very bad stuff for sure. I used to support President Trump but now I am with Joe Biden, not because he's better but because that is just the next best choice and President Trump should NOT have told them to do that. What did he think was gonna happen? I've heard reports that some people were injured and even killed. This is very unfortunate. Do NOT listen to Trump when he tells you to go to the White House.

[DJarJar]

Helz not sure why you’re using BLM 2020 to somehow convince yourself the Biden 2020 reaction is “better” than the trump 2016 reaction. An obvious false equivalency but whatever.

Additionally, these people didn’t just riot, they attempted to forcibly stop congress from certifying the election. And for awhile they SUCCEEDED!

And the thread title is clearly sarcastic...

[yzb25]

Why is it that every single thread about some criticism of the right always turns into deflections and whataboutisms? I see this constantly.

The BLM protests/riots aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand, why are they being brought up?

maan this is so true and this is so exhausting. If I see someone criticizing cnn for being partisan hacks and lapdogs for the democratic establishment I don't reply to them with "bu-bu-bu FOX". If someone wants to start a thread on the legitimately awful decisions Clinton took as foreign secretary during Obama's first term I wouldn't start talking about Trump's policy with Iran. The right always feels the need to do these whataboutisms. They unironically bring up Obama and expect you to defend the dude. You think I give a shit about Obama? Bro, I will cancel Obama right now. I am a boundless, gorgeous social justice warrior and I will cancel ANYONE who takes my 1/16th Native American heritage in vain.

That said, Voss 100% brought this upon himself with the thread title. I myself have no idea how to start a good forum topic, but this is just awful XD.

p;edit in case it isn't clear, it's awful because it sets such a low bar for political discourse. If discussing the abject failure of the Trump presidency and the legitimate damage it's done to democracy around the world constantly has to be done in the context of "well the democrats are bad too" and "well I think the democrats would do [X] which is even worse" then everything just becomes a race to the bottom and we lose any ability to mount meaningful criticism of anything politicians do because they're all shit.

[Grayswandir]

Why is it that every single thread about some criticism of the right always turns into deflections and whataboutisms? I see this constantly.

The BLM protests/riots aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand, why are they being brought up?
Stop teasing each other. Fuck already!

[Renegade]

Okay maybe I was too exaggerating there. I'm really really hoping this doesn't devolve the thread but I'll say this. My experience with CNN is that they also have trouble being presentationally objective, but Faux is blatantly worse. And while I usually refuse to watch either, I wanted to get that sensationalism yesterday and turned to CNN.

Also, shoutout to Kelly Loeffler for not objecting to the results, even after she had lost her Georgia senate race. Way to not be a sore loser.

Laffler should get absolutely no credit. Despicable insider trader, Trump supporter until it stopped being convenient.

[Renegade]

Another day, another thread for the crypto's.

Very special people!

[Grayswandir]

Another day, another thread for the crypto's.

Very special people!
Why do your posts read like they were written by Donald Trump?

[Voss]

Laffler should get absolutely no credit. Despicable insider trader, Trump supporter until it stopped being convenient.

Unfortunately, the bar is now very low.

[Grayswandir]

Not sure if the thread title is serious, or sarcastic, but I agree with Trump Junior’a tweet about it. When there were outraged Democrats, the country burned up and multiple ppl lost their lives and/or had their livelihood affected in some manner, by having their businesses or shops they would go to, burned down by a bunch of hooligans
Meanwhile, when you get 70 million pissed off Republicans, you get one riot, a several hours long riot, that ended fairly quickly, with just one federal building damaged.
I think it speaks for itself. :P

Also, I see multiple ppl arguing that somehow, this is actually worse than Democrats rioting over Floyd, and I don’t really see how or why, the intensity of it was not the same.

As for whether it’s justified or good, no, political violence is nevee justified, except maybe if a literal dictatorship is on the table. If ppl were tried to institute a communist dictatorship, then yes, the rioting would be justified, I would even join in on it myself. I would rather have Pinochet, Franco, Kaiser Wilhelm, the Tsar, hell, even Benito fucking Mussolini, over Lenin/Trotsky/Dzerdzinsky (I probably spelt that wrong), anyday

So as a Trunp supporter, I think going on a rampage and attacking ppl is absolutely the wrong way to approach this, like I thought about it a little and I thought, the best thing you can do is keep calm, and a cool head, don’t be reduced to a mindless, angry beast, because a) that’s what your enemies want, and b) there is a reason there is a Democratic system in place, and why we have Laws, we can’t subvert them whenever we feel it’s convenient. Also, terrible target if they wanted to take over Congress and force then to not ratify the results of the election, if they really wanted to do some good they should’ve raided the FBI Headquarters to force them to carry out a damn investigation

As for the ppl saying Trump was egging them on, no he wasn’t, at the time the protest hadn’t turned into a riot, he was telling ppl to protest, nothing wrong with that, politicians do it all the time. He even denounced the violence going on after they turned violent. Funny how Trump is the one inciting to violence when NONE of the Democratic politicians denounced BLM riots and instead deflected by saying ‘we’re with the peaceful protesters’, and then attempted to paint ppl like the couple who defended their home, and Kyle Rittenhouse, as somehow being ‘white supremacists’
-rant mode off-

[Grayswandir]

The only interesting counterpoint I saw is that, Republicans didnt endure 4 years of a president they hated, so maybe thats also a factor, and maybe we’ll see more violence akin to that of the Democrats in the coming years (from Republicans)

[Grayswandir]

Why is it that every single thread about some criticism of the right always turns into deflections and whataboutisms? I see this constantly.

The BLM protests/riots aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand, why are they being brought up?
Also, because I’m an asshole, and like to remind ppl of it, I’ll point out, if you had actually read his post and spent like 60 extra seconds thinking about it, there is no way you would’ve reached such a garbage conclusion. Nothing in Helz’s post indicates he is a Republican, a Trump Supporter, or even conservative in general. Man has said he hates both of the parties, and indicated he doesn’t think there is anything more moral about Republicans than Democrats (probably true). But, seeing as ppl want to feel outrage and are more than happy to project ‘whataboutisms’ (btw, THIS post is a whataboutism, or at least not related to what Helz is saying) onto the other person, simply for challenging their political beliefs, I don’t think anyone should find this surprising.

[Grayswandir]

Helz not sure why you’re using BLM 2020 to somehow convince yourself the Biden 2020 reaction is “better” than the trump 2016 reaction. An obvious false equivalency but whatever.

Additionally, these people didn’t just riot, they attempted to forcibly stop congress from certifying the election. And for awhile they SUCCEEDED!

And the thread title is clearly sarcastic...
What’s the Trump 2016 reaction got to do with this thread? That was 4 years ago, the BLM riots happened this summer and had nothing to do with Trump’s election in 2016

[Grayswandir]

Another day, another thread for the crypto's.

Very special people!
What do you mean by this? What’s a crypto?

[Grayswandir]

Sure there will always be idiots. Yesterday I watched some guy stack up a bunch of extremely expensive video equipment, put a tarp over it and try to light it on fire.

My point (and the point of this thread) is that there’s a noticeable difference in the behaviors of the two sides. There have been quite a few rally’s and protests by republicans sense the election but you don’t see much media coverage because there’s no lines of police in riot gear pushing a mob that’s throwing bricks at them. If anything I would say the lack of coverage itself points to the basic difference we are talking about.

There is not a massive difference in the amount of republicans vs Democrats but we see a very different reaction on a large scale. On the most basic level the lack of civil disorder speaks to that.

I wouldn’t be surprised if republicans have some crazy hillbilly with a rifle who decides to ‘protest’ with a bullet but when that happens I don’t think the same equivocations will be drawn.

I would also point out the political climate in 2016 was very different than it was this year. If Trump has won we would have seen some crazy stuff.What do you mean by this? And I’m not accusing you or anything of the kind, I’m genuinely curious how you came to this conclusion. I’m assuming you’re talking about an assassination here, or something, but do you feel like the ‘Republican rioter’ is more of a lone wolf than someone who just blends into the mob?

[Grayswandir]

What’s the Trump 2016 reaction got to do with this thread? That was 4 years ago, the BLM riots happened this summer and had nothing to do with Trump’s election in 2016
Oh now having read Helz’s post I understand why you mentioned the Trump reaction although Helz isn’t trying to convince himself the reaction in 2016 was ‘better’ than the Biden reaction, I read that as him saying the Bidenite riots if Trump had won would’ve been a lot worse than the Trumpite riot we had this month.

[DJarJar]

Oh now having read Helz’s post I understand why you mentioned the Trump reaction although Helz isn’t trying to convince himself the reaction in 2016 was ‘better’ than the Biden reaction, I read that as him saying the Bidenite riots if Trump had won would’ve been a lot worse than the Trumpite riot we had this month.

Why would the Biden losing reaction be significantly worse than Hillary losing?

[Renegade]

What do you mean by this? What’s a crypto?

Cryptofascists. You should be familiar with the term.

[Helz]

What do you mean by this? And I’m not accusing you or anything of the kind, I’m genuinely curious how you came to this conclusion. I’m assuming you’re talking about an assassination here, or something, but do you feel like the ‘Republican rioter’ is more of a lone wolf than someone who just blends into the mob?

After Obama's 2nd election I was just starting to get involved in VA stuff and we had a raid by the secret service on some retired vets who were literally plotting to kill the president. After the fact there was a good bit of issues thrown around because things had been voiced to authority's that had been said in group therapy and such.

I know my people. I know how vets think and what they look at. I do not know anyone specific I think would be violent but I do believe there will be violence coming for politicians.

The terrible thing is that I do not think I will shed a tear if a member of congress takes a dirt nap from a bomb or a bullet. But I will have no part in it regardless of how blatantly they line their pockets on human suffering.

[Helz]

Why would the Biden losing reaction be significantly worse than Hillary losing?

Literal rioters with bombs and a 4 year international campaign generating hate as inequality

[DJarJar]

Literal rioters with bombs and a 4 year international campaign generating hate as inequality

So is the general defense of raiding the us capitol and LITERALLY trying to stop democracy that “BLM was bad too”? Hence democrats would have been same/worse! Because BLM = all of the Biden voters?

[Helz]

So is the general defense of raiding the us capitol and LITERALLY trying to stop democracy that “BLM was bad too”? Hence democrats would have been same/worse! Because BLM = all of the Biden voters?

No. Not at all. You asked what the difference was between the Hillary loss and hypothetical Biden loss.
My statement has nothing to do with the 'raid of the US capitol to stop democracy.'

But yeah; I dont care for the media but from what I understand there was hardcore groups of people set up to riot if trump won. When people set up with firebombs and still use them after they win I would call that terrorism in favor of the democratic party.

I think that Republicans will be worse in the coming years. But fuck off with your efforts to put words in my mouth. I have no problem crossing lines and being emphatically clear about it as I do it.

[Firebringer]

Why is it that every single thread about some criticism of the right always turns into deflections and whataboutisms? I see this constantly.

The BLM protests/riots aren't even relevant to the discussion at hand, why are they being brought up?

The initial post was mocking the rights thing about antifa being violent protestors. To not expect backlash from right wingers or them to point out cases where left wing were violent is like so many layers of delusional i don't even know where to begin.

[Firebringer]

I believe that trying to figure out which is worse is difficult, because of how you measure it and what they stand for.

BML where riots and protests against their belief police brutality and racism.
Capitol riots and protests where for the belief of a fraudulent election.

BML where long lasting protests which a minority abused to riot and loot
Capitol where a short-term protest which a minority abused to invade the Capitol.

BML damaged peoples lives and lively hood.
Capitol damaged democracy and the country's foundations.



So, what is worse it is totally depend on how you measure it and what your opinion is in what is more important. And to argue is only really a aggressive way to tell someone what opinion more important.

Yeah the comparison of the two isn't fair. But that will not stop people from making one or being hypocritical about one of these events to support their team.

If you are right wing and supporting this riot but were hyper critical of riots pre election you better have a good reason why one was okay and other not. Because if its about scale/damage I think you will always argue on those lines and theres no true line your drawing in the sand and probably always moving goalpost. If you are arguing about the foundations of the initial protest being valid (racism and police brutality vs fraudulent election) you are just admitting your political beliefs have more standing to do as you please than others and thus you never cared about riots being bad.

[Stealthbomber16]

To these protesters, their behavior is completely justified. They believe that the election was fraudulent and they are attempting to restore democracy. That’s a sign of an inherent distrust in the media and in science... I wonder where that was perpetrated from?

I’m far more annoyed with the lack of prepared response for the capital raid. This is something that had been planned for multiple weeks and wasn’t exactly a secret. There is absolutely no reason why these people should have gotten even close to the capital.

The people on both sides that I’ve found to be respectable all agree that the inherent problem here isn’t the fact that there was a riot, it was the disproportionate level of response to the riot. I disagree with my parents on a lot of things but we both agree that the response to this should have been the same as the response to the BLM riots (which for the record were much worse in scale, whether you agree or disagree with them). The top level management here needs to be completely gutted and redone. There are massive issues that are visible now.

[oops_ur_dead]

The discussion title is "70 million pissed off republicans and not one city burned to the ground." I don't think there are many bits of conversation that could be any more directly related.

I do feel like whataboutisms is an issue on both sides. Maybe more so for republicans. I think a larger portion of republicans justifications boils down to a little kid saying 'we they did it too' although I am not sure how you could call pointing to BLM protests/riots whataboutisms in the slightest given the thread name..



The initial post was mocking the rights thing about antifa being violent protestors. To not expect backlash from right wingers or them to point out cases where left wing were violent is like so many layers of delusional i don't even know where to begin.

Ah shit you know you're right, I forgot the context of the thread and thought it was a general conversation about the capitol stuff.

My complaining was misplaced then, your comparisons are apt and relevant. Shouldn't have gone at your neck for that Helz, my b.

To comment on the topic then, in short I think both sets of protests/riots/whatever were justified responses to what the people involved thought was happening. In fact if the election really was stolen then I think the capitol riots didn't go far enough.

But in terms of the underlying cause, I personally agree with the goals and ideas of the BLM protests/riots/what have you, but the election fraud thing is completely made up BS. Most of the blame for what happened go to the people wilfully spreading disinfo about the subject.

This totally censures all the people who pretended for the last 4-5 years that Trump's rhetoric was harmless and "locker room talk" or whatever people claimed it was. This is why rapid firing legal cases to overturn the results, pretty much all of which failed, is a bad thing and not just "oh well he's just making sure things are fair, if the election wasn't rigged then everything will be ok so there's nothing to worry about". This is why Trump's vague language and phrasing was horrible and very intentional, and everyone who pretended like he meant nothing by things like telling the Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by" was either being disingenuous or just completely naive and delusional. It's not a mistake that it led to this, it was the intent, and pretending otherwise is just continuing to fan the flames of disinformation that will lead to further violence and terrorism.

I can't put blame or even hatred on the people who marched on the capitol ready to do whatever it takes to ensure that the election results were fair and democracy was upheld. The real evil comes from the people who perpetrated and tolerated this stuff in the first place.

[DJarJar]

No. Not at all. You asked what the difference was between the Hillary loss and hypothetical Biden loss.
My statement has nothing to do with the 'raid of the US capitol to stop democracy.'

But yeah; I dont care for the media but from what I understand there was hardcore groups of people set up to riot if trump won. When people set up with firebombs and still use them after they win I would call that terrorism in favor of the democratic party.

I think that Republicans will be worse in the coming years. But fuck off with your efforts to put words in my mouth. I have no problem crossing lines and being emphatically clear about it as I do it.

Could you cite your source on firebombs and plan to revolt if Biden lost?

[SuperJack]

Could you cite your source on firebombs and plan to revolt if Biden lost?

Oh shit. Sounds dangerous. Better press them panic alarms...

[Helz]

Could you cite your source on firebombs and plan to revolt if Biden lost?

A man by the name of Dillan Hoppe who works for the LA Fire department. He said large chunks of hotels were rented out by your typical black skinny jean crowd and after Trump lost they still caused a lot of problems.

I can't speak to him saying they planned to revolt but when you have people massing with riot gear and making Molotov's its a reasonable assumption that 'something' is being planned. Given what we saw in the months leading up to the election I would be surprised to hear anyone claim there would not have been mass rioting if Trump had won.

[rumox]

I absolutely wouldn't be surprised of destructive riots if Trump won. I think anyone who tries to confidently argue there wouldn't have been is being pretty dishonest.

[SuperJack]

I absolutely wouldn't be surprised of destructive riots if Trump won. I think anyone who tries to confidently argue there wouldn't have been is being pretty dishonest.

You are more likely to get less due to the split base. Some republicans name trump, some blame their party, some blame democrats, some blame fraud. Because there is no common enemy that is easily identifiable there won't be as much of a heavy reaction compared to fighting racism and police brutality.

Yet I expect there to be some, I expect some people will riot for the sake of rioting and committing crimes whilst having no intention to riot because of trump/election. And I expect every single crime to be blamed on republicans no matter who does it for what reason.

[DJarJar]

I absolutely wouldn't be surprised of destructive riots if Trump won. I think anyone who tries to confidently argue there wouldn't have been is being pretty dishonest.

I don’t see why losing to trump the 2nd time would be THAT much worse than losing the first time. So I can agree just like the first time there would be “not my President” marches everywhere but I just have a hard time believing in the violence conspiracy theories without evidence. I mean a key issue between left and right is guns and frankly the left just aren’t as in to guns.

Now, anarchists who would have started shit no matter who won? That I can buy into as it just makes sense they’d try to ride the wave whatever the wave was.

But nonetheless there’s a key difference here. Your trumpy voters felt right in their insurrection because they were convinced that the election was stolen from them. Can’t even really blame someone who thinks they are just defending their country right? But if trump had won, you would NOT have the majority of democrat voters thinking that they’d been swindled, cheated, etc. Maybe largely cuz Biden just wouldn’t be a little bitch like trump was. Would there be some salty fucks? Sure. But I still haven’t heard a reason why they would act significantly more violently than they did after Hillary lost

[rumox]

I think after the 4 years of Trump there is a lot more kindle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Trump_administration_controversies) to ignite a violent reaction compared to the reaction of his win over Clinton. Trump was polarizing when vying for office and he has only gotten worse since. Just because the extreme right used the allegation of voter fraud as their catalyst doesn't mean the extreme left would have it as their catalyst. Take your pick from that list of controversies during Trumps presidency, there are a couple that can easily reignite into violence if Trump was to be declared president again.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think after the 4 years of Trump there is a lot more kindle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Trump_administration_controversies) to ignite a violent reaction compared to the reaction of his win over Clinton. Trump was polarizing when vying for office and he has only gotten worse since. Just because the extreme right used the allegation of voter fraud as their catalyst doesn't mean the extreme left would have it as their catalyst. Take your pick from that list of controversies during Trumps presidency, there are a couple that can easily reignite into violence if Trump was to be declared president again.

100 % correct. I think that's what you were saying too, but I'd like to specify something: it could easily reignite into violence from both sides. The immense issue with the vote fraud strategy, which also makes its power, is that it completely removes any form of legitimacy from the opposing side. If you think the opposing side is made solely of liars who only want to seize power against the will of the people, and that you even happen to legally own an assault rifle... I'll let you guess what will happen.

Disclaimer: I'm referring to the "vote fraud strategy" because there is no proof it actually happened on a scale big enough to swing the results. If you have actual evidence it did, before arguing here, you should be immediatly contacting courts in the US with that evidence, since it appears noone could show them any valid one. The only way this isn't right is if all judges involved in this in each state were biased and part of a conspiracy, in which case the US are already doomed anyway lol.

[Firebringer]

Could you cite your source on firebombs and plan to revolt if Biden lost?

I don't know about threats of violence, but i will say there were hundreds of businesses boarding up their businesses in fear of Trump winning and the left rioting. All over the country you can read stories of businesses doing so. When interviewed they didn't say they were scared if Biden won. They were scared if Trump won.

[Light_Yagami]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTemvJkURAo

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I don't know about threats of violence, but i will say there were hundreds of businesses boarding up their businesses in fear of Trump winning and the left rioting. All over the country you can read stories of businesses doing so. When interviewed they didn't say they were scared if Biden won. They were scared if Trump won.

Isn't everyone who isn't completely disconnected from politics scared of the "opposing side" in the US atm? There's a political crisis, and people are crazy and own guns. That's a good reason to be scared.

[Helz]

Isn't everyone who isn't completely disconnected from politics scared of the "opposing side" in the US atm? There's a political crisis, and people are crazy and own guns. That's a good reason to be scared.

Imagine if the political side you are afraid of has power and you are not allowed to have guns.

This is the basic idea behind gun ownership. Its not like the right to have a 'well formed militia' was created to hunt deer. Its about the population being able to build the means to fight their own government if thy feel its necessary.

Not that you should use force when you disagree with political bullshit but oppression has a pattern that starts with disarming the populous.

[rumox]

I can understand the logic from pro gun people saying a ban on automatic guns is a slippery slope to a ban on all guns, but I just don't buy into that train of thought.

[Grayswandir]

I can understand the logic from pro gun people saying a ban on automatic guns is a slippery slope to a ban on all guns, but I just don't buy into that train of thought.
Did the rioters at the Capitol have automatics?

[rumox]

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1351661/download

This guy did

[Helz]

I can understand the logic from pro gun people saying a ban on automatic guns is a slippery slope to a ban on all guns, but I just don't buy into that train of thought.More children are killed by swimming pools than by assault rifles each year in America but you do not hear a public outcry against them. I am sure if there was one there would be some swimming pool lobbyists promoting how its a 'slippery slope' to end the creation of something thats ending the lives of children at a greater rate than devices designed to murder people.

I would like to see our public reactions actually be in line with the things causing human suffering but instead we focus on the things that are cosmetically marketable. Think about it next time you walk into a restaurant and the first 5 steps you wear a mask but for the next hour while you chill and eat your food you dont. We live in a society that promotes 'doing something' to ensure the feeling of control when we are afraid of something even when that thing we do has absolutely no impact on the thing we are afraid of. Just think back to 9/11 when national guard soldiers were put in airports with M16s but not given bullets. I think we should advocate to ban swimming pools!

[Helz]

More children are killed by swimming pools than by assault rifles each year in America but you do not hear a public outcry against them. I am sure if there was one there would be some swimming pool lobbyists promoting how its a 'slippery slope' to end the creation of something thats ending the lives of children at a greater rate than devices designed to murder people.

I would like to see our public reactions actually be in line with the things causing human suffering but instead we focus on the things that are cosmetically marketable. Think about it next time you walk into a restaurant and the first 5 steps you wear a mask but for the next hour while you chill and eat your food you dont. We live in a society that promotes 'doing something' to ensure the feeling of control when we are afraid of something even when that thing we do has absolutely no impact on the thing we are afraid of. Just think back to 9/11 when national guard soldiers were put in airports with M16s but not given bullets. I think we should advocate to ban swimming pools!

I feel like I am really gona dislike that I brought up this point tomorrow but at the same time I feel like advocacy against devices to curve violence is one of the most dumbass thought processes that is widely accepted in our society. Most people are more dangerous with a vehicle or a chainsaw than with a gun and every retard acts like putting a gun in someones hands makes them John Wick while in reality the majority of people wouldn't know how to chamber a round or flip a safety switch.

[Grayswandir]

More children are killed by swimming pools than by assault rifles each year in America but you do not hear a public outcry against them. I am sure if there was one there would be some swimming pool lobbyists promoting how its a 'slippery slope' to end the creation of something thats ending the lives of children at a greater rate than devices designed to murder people.

I would like to see our public reactions actually be in line with the things causing human suffering but instead we focus on the things that are cosmetically marketable. Think about it next time you walk into a restaurant and the first 5 steps you wear a mask but for the next hour while you chill and eat your food you dont. We live in a society that promotes 'doing something' to ensure the feeling of control when we are afraid of something even when that thing we do has absolutely no impact on the thing we are afraid of. Just think back to 9/11 when national guard soldiers were put in airports with M16s but not given bullets. I think we should advocate to ban swimming pools!LOL what? Soldiers weren’t given bullets?

[rumox]

I mean if we are to all care about every fucked up thing in the world with the same intensity we would be miserable wreaks to the point we probably couldn't even function. This is a classic whataboutism. To entertain it though, pool safety should be thoroughly pursued and in fact I can say I'm proud of my countries pool safety activism. I bet any Australian reading this will get a certain song in their head after reading this - kids alive do the 5.

[rumox]

Anyway, obviously other measures should be taken to decrease the rampant mental illness that plagues Americans who decide to shoot as many people as they can. I'm just saying this argument that a proposed ban on automatic weapons being a slippery slope to more restrictions is mindless alarmist talk.

[Light_Yagami]

I Believe. Under The Second Amendment That. All People Have The Right To The Same Hardware. If They Can Afford It As The IDK Government. To Protect Their Selves Not Only From Other Aggressors. But Against The Government Its Self.

[Helz]

I mean if we are to all care about every fucked up thing in the world with the same intensity we would be miserable wreaks to the point we probably couldn't even function. This is a classic whataboutism. To entertain it though, pool safety should be thoroughly pursued and in fact I can say I'm proud of my countries pool safety activism. I bet any Australian reading this will get a certain song in their head after reading this - kids alive do the 5.

Sure, but I am not saying we should care about everything with the same intensity. If anything we should care about things in ratio to the dangers they present but we just dont. We focus on whatever the 'hot topic' is and the things that have marketable presentation. Someone arguing 'swimming pool safety' does not come with the same presentation as someone arguing to 'ban assault riffles.' And the solutions we push have the same cosmetic focus. Chicago had over 4,000 shootings last year with some of the most strict gun laws in the country.

I don't want to make this about gun control but we are incompetent as a society in both how we focus our attention as well as our incessant need to give ourselves a false sense of control.

[yzb25]

I think you touched on some really fascinating points Helz. I don't think it's just about marketing and the need to feel in control though (though those are definitely huge factors in things like gun control and the war on terror).

I think people are far more invested in symbolism than we'd like to acknowledge - I don't even mean that in a cynical way necessarily, though people do tend to view it cynically. Just that our calculation about what things are immoral or what things are a moral issue isn't some kind of utilitarian cost/benefit equation. I'm taking a far bigger risk in derailing the conversation with this next point: stop and think about what actually makes desecrating graves immoral for a second. Shit like grave robbery or even necrophillia. Even if the dead person has no relatives, we still view it as deeply inhumane and immoral, even though no actual person is getting hurt. Our impulse to respect the dead speaks to the fact that, even if you don't believe in any religious bullshit, human beings have a natural tendency to view the world in an almost spiritual manner, and elevate the significance of certain events based on their aesthetic or symbolic features.

Dying in a terrorist attack or a shooting is very different from passing away due to some accident. Even though in a simple utilitarian sense the person is dead either way, the former has the feeling of violating some natural process and desecrating the person's (I resent using this word but it's all I can think of) soul. Though I'll be the first to admit these sorts of attacks receive far more media and political attention than makes sense even when we account for the "symbolic element" (again, the marketing and control stuff is also playing a role) the symbolic element remains nonetheless undeniable here.

It's interesting what negative phenomena people rationalize as "a sad fact of life" and what negative phenomena people rationalize as "a systemic issue to be resolved". I think such things are often deeply cultural and ideological in nature. Sometimes we look at other cultures and try to figure out how the hell their people may tolerate certain barbaric customs, yet to the people themselves they don't even view it as an issue in the first place.

[yzb25]

It's interesting what negative phenomena people rationalize as "a sad fact of life" and what negative phenomena people rationalize as "a systemic issue to be resolved". I think such things are often deeply cultural and ideological in nature. Sometimes we look at other cultures and try to figure out how the hell their people may tolerate certain barbaric customs, yet to the people themselves they don't even view it as an issue in the first place.

I might be making this up, but I remember reading how the first reaction to vehicles from many people was to see these machines as these awful, dangerous things that could easily kill 10s of people with just a slight jerk of the steering wheel. The automobile companies actually needed to place pressures/incentives on newspapers to publish favourable stories about automobiles and effectively "victim blame" people who were careless enough to die in accidents, and make sure to place blame squarely on drivers rather than cars. I mean, I see cars as a little more important to a modern society's function than guns, but I can acknowledge that culturally guns mean jackshit to me so it's only natural it'd seem utterly bizarre when Americans get so worked up about holding onto them.

As someone with cringe levels of ignorance about military strategy, I'd just like to ask - How much of a difference does the prevalence of guns in America make to the government's ability to transition to an authoritarian regime? The US military seems insanely powerful, and I thought it was mainly the political barriers that were preventing such a thing from happening.

[Grayswandir]

Going back to the main topic of the thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
There. Protests.
Meanwhile the rioting at the Capitol is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol
Also described as a riot on the page. Meanwhile the page on the George Floyd protests says they were mostly peaceful. Yeah, doesn’t really change the fact that the damage caused by the BLM riots was far greater than the damage wrought by the riot.

[SuperJack]

Going back to the main topic of the thread:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
There. Protests.
Meanwhile the rioting at the Capitol is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol
Also described as a riot on the page. Meanwhile the page on the George Floyd protests says they were mostly peaceful. Yeah, doesn’t really change the fact that the damage caused by the BLM riots was far greater than the damage wrought by the riot.

Please list the quantity of damaged caused by both to compare!

[Grayswandir]

Please list the quantity of damaged caused by both to compare!
One federal building was damaged in the capitol riots whilst several hundred were during the ‘George Floyd riots’. One person was shot by police; compare that to 23 this summer. Hundreds of small businesses were damaged, whilst the capitol riot damaged no small businesses.

[SuperJack]

One federal building was damaged in the capitol riots whilst several hundred were during the ‘George Floyd riots’. One person was shot by police; compare that to 23 this summer. Hundreds of small businesses were damaged, whilst the capitol riot damaged no small businesses.

sO. Now we multiply that by time so they are equally able to measure it!

say. 5 monthsish. 150 days.

Thats 150 federal buildings
and 150 shot by police..



tut tut tut. thats so bad.

[Helz]

I might be making this up, but I remember reading how the first reaction to vehicles from many people was to see these machines as these awful, dangerous things that could easily kill 10s of people with just a slight jerk of the steering wheel. The automobile companies actually needed to place pressures/incentives on newspapers to publish favourable stories about automobiles and effectively "victim blame" people who were careless enough to die in accidents, and make sure to place blame squarely on drivers rather than cars. I mean, I see cars as a little more important to a modern society's function than guns, but I can acknowledge that culturally guns mean jackshit to me so it's only natural it'd seem utterly bizarre when Americans get so worked up about holding onto them.

As someone with cringe levels of ignorance about military strategy, I'd just like to ask - How much of a difference does the prevalence of guns in America make to the government's ability to transition to an authoritarian regime? The US military seems insanely powerful, and I thought it was mainly the political barriers that were preventing such a thing from happening.

Thats just about what my understanding is. I believe the origin of the term 'Jay walking' resulted from that. Back in the day calling someone a 'Jay' was a very disrespectful term and automobile manufacturers were concerned because of the number of people being injured by vehicles. They launched a huge advertising campaign blaming the people who were hit by cars for being ignorant for being in the streets. Prior to then roads were just walked on and used by horses.

[Helz]

sO. Now we multiply that by time so they are equally able to measure it!

say. 5 monthsish. 150 days.
Wouldent you have to include the amount of time there have not been riots sense Trump lost? Thats like 1.3 months for 1 riot vs 6ish months for 150 riots if you wanted to scale it using those numbers and still underscores the original point of this thread.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Imagine if the political side you are afraid of has power and you are not allowed to have guns.

This is the basic idea behind gun ownership. Its not like the right to have a 'well formed militia' was created to hunt deer. Its about the population being able to build the means to fight their own government if thy feel its necessary.

Not that you should use force when you disagree with political bullshit but oppression has a pattern that starts with disarming the populous.

The government is less of a threat than a bunch of people who decide to have a "well-formed Militia" and who declare whatever the hell they want to because they have guns. Democracies all over the world exist without that stuff, and they're going much better (and much more democratically) than the US are right now. History is proving this stance wrong. I understand the idea behind gun ownership, I just believe it is very dumb lol. The majority is too dumb to be given such a powerful tool, sadly.

[SuperJack]

Wouldent you have to include the amount of time there have not been riots sense Trump lost? Thats like 1.3 months for 1 riot vs 6ish months for 150 riots if you wanted to scale it using those numbers and still underscores the original point of this thread.

Nope, Just like politics I handpick what data I want to use and present it in exactly a way that benefits me the most. Despite it being completely misleading and ignorant of many other factors. =).
And if someone points this out I stick my fingers in my ears and make very childish noises whilst screaming more inaccurate bladder or repeating older non-related bladder.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Nope, Just like politics I handpick what data I want to use and present it in exactly a way that benefits me the most. Despite it being completely misleading and ignorant of many other factors. =).
And if someone points this out I stick my fingers in my ears and make very childish noises whilst screaming more inaccurate bladder or repeating older non-related bladder.

I'll vote for you

[Grayswandir]

The government is less of a threat than a bunch of people who decide to have a "well-formed Militia" and who declare whatever the hell they want to because they have guns. Democracies all over the world exist without that stuff, and they're going much better (and much more democratically) than the US are right now. History is proving this stance wrong. I understand the idea behind gun ownership, I just believe it is very dumb lol. The majority is too dumb to be given such a powerful tool, sadly.
I don’t think there’s any authoritarian regimes with an armed populace, and for a good reason. Europe and the like may not have authoritarian governments, so they don’t need guns yet. But wait until some dictatorship starts to emerge, and ppl will wish they had guns.

To address your points about the US and its stance on gun rights though, the problems in America are much older than ppl marching on the Capitol and trying to take over Congress by force: guns have played a very minor role in this... situation thus far.

Hillbillies with rifles are a real threat, but I think paying that price is worth it if it means you can defend yourself if the government wants to take your shit. Imagine how the Cuban/Russian Revolutions would’ve gone if ppl were armed. Imagine how Hitler’s rise to power could’ve been averted or at least Jews could’ve defended themselves if they were as well armed as Americans are.

[Grayswandir]

Somewhat relatedly, I feel that if the current political climate of violence and intimidation continues, the ‘silent majority’ will eventually react in a disproportionate manner. Not that I condone what happened at the capitol in any way but I feel that’s one of the first hints at what may come if this climate continues. People may blame Trump for the riot but ppl wouldn’t have gone to the capitol in the first place if they hadn’t been constantly called chums, racists, idiots who believe in conspiracy theories/lied to/you name it. America really needs to get its extremism under control, or, eventually, we’ll see something truly horrible happen. Much worse than this capitol riot. I’m curious what will happen the first time ppl will be able to express their views without fear of censorship/social suicide/losing their jobs ect. I think there will be so much bottled up anger that ppl will just explode and be VERY mean lol.

[Helz]

Actually I want to fuck with this now.
This projects 1-2 billion in damage just from May 26-June 8 https://www.axios.com/riots-cost-property-damage-276c9bcc-a455-4067-b06a-66f9db4cea9c.html
Wikipedia shows 27 people killed in the riots from May 27th to August 29th. I have a good bit of trouble finding a relevant count so Im just using that and I will note this does not include things like people murdering police in protest of George Floyd or whatever.

So if we take May 26 as the start day and December 3rd as the end its 191 days
If we take the 13 day period and project the cost per day on the lowest end at 1 billion we get roughly 76.9 million per day. Multiply that by the duration of the riots and we get 14.692 Billion dollars so the riots probably cost between 14-29 billion total.
If we take 27 dead people and divide that by the 94 days we get .099 dead people per day we get .287 dead people per day

By the new york times 5 people died in the Capitol Riot and I have not been able to find any news on any other election riots sense the election.
If we take December 3rd as the start day and end it today theres 44 days
So if we take 5 dead people and divide that by the 44 days we get .113 dead people per day

So the pre-election riots cost is something like 77 million dollars and .287 lives per day.
And the post-election riots cost XXX (We can figure this out when cleanup/repair estimates are given) and .113 lives per day.

[Helz]

The government is less of a threat than a bunch of people who decide to have a "well-formed Militia" and who declare whatever the hell they want to because they have guns.
I feel like you have to add in a 'right now' to that statement. The second amendment was a balancing factor for the future.

I pretty much think the government is just a bunch of people who declare whatever they want because they have guns. Think about bullshit traffic tickets. They are given under the justification of public safety but I am sure we all have friends who have gotten a ticket because they rolled down a hill without riding the breaks and a cop nailed them. Then he gives you a ticket with the ultimate end result that you have to give the city money or things will eventually escalate to violence or the loss of your freedom. This issue is underscored by the fact every district in America limited police interaction to matters of public safety and what was the first thing to get shut off? Traffic Tickets. So if by their own actions they acknowledge they are not protecting public safety how is what they are doing very different than a thug robbing you?
Think back to they tale of Robin Hood where the corrupt sheriff 'Taxed' his citizens with silly justifications until the local lord trained a militia and pushed back. Or spaghetti westerns where the town rises up against bandits forming a militia. Classic stories illustrate the reason for our 2nd amendment to exist.

Militias also function under local governments. Its like the 'volunteer fire department' but the military's version. Im sure you have read about the minute men in the revolutionary war or watched 'The Patriot'

[DJarJar]

but for the capitol riots, the time since trump lost to them was 0 days. That was the whole point lol. Why would they bother rioting during all the time they believed trump had won?

[Renegade]

I don’t think there’s any authoritarian regimes with an armed populace, and for a good reason. Europe and the like may not have authoritarian governments, so they don’t need guns yet. But wait until some dictatorship starts to emerge, and ppl will wish they had guns.

To address your points about the US and its stance on gun rights though, the problems in America are much older than ppl marching on the Capitol and trying to take over Congress by force: guns have played a very minor role in this... situation thus far.

Hillbillies with rifles are a real threat, but I think paying that price is worth it if it means you can defend yourself if the government wants to take your shit. Imagine how the Cuban/Russian Revolutions would’ve gone if ppl were armed. Imagine how Hitler’s rise to power could’ve been averted or at least Jews could’ve defended themselves if they were as well armed as Americans are.

Holy shit, yikes (!!!)

[Helz]

but for the capitol riots, the time since trump lost to them was 0 days. That was the whole point lol. Why would they bother rioting during all the time they believed trump had won?
I am not sure I understand what you mean. The election results were pretty blatant on December 4th.

There were lots of protests arguing for stuff like 'Stop the Steal' and such. They actually started in early November but thats kind of erroneous given the subject of this thread.

[DJarJar]

I am not sure I understand what you mean. The election results were pretty blatant on December 4th.

There were lots of protests arguing for stuff like 'Stop the Steal' and such. They actually started in early November but thats kind of erroneous given the subject of this thread.

From the rioter's pov, trump didn't officially lose until the day of the riots when congress certified the votes

[SuperJack]

Helz

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DGPPBJenrXU

[Helz]

From the rioter's pov, trump didn't officially lose until the day of the riots when congress certified the votes
That may be true for some but its also worth noting the day of the riot the election was not certified so Trump had not lost yet. The entire public 'reason' for that gathering was to 'cheer on the congressmen pushing to stop the steal' or some nonsense.

In context to the conversation its about how differently two movements are expressing their discontent. I just felt election day was when the people I know who are on that Trump Train started loosing their minds. I don't think its fair to split hairs about 'having a reason to riot'. If people are motivated enough for thousands to get together and express they are angry that potential exists regardless of if it stays a peaceful protest or turns into a riot; and I think that restraint is kind of the point of this thread.

We could even examine how the violence that does exist is directed to identify patterns that reflect differences between the two sides..
Helz

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DGPPBJenrXU
It just says Video unavailable but seems to be called the Riot Song. Lol

[SuperJack]

That may be true for some but its also worth noting the day of the riot the election was not certified so Trump had not lost yet. The entire public 'reason' for that gathering was to 'cheer on the congressmen pushing to stop the steal' or some nonsense.

In context to the conversation its about how differently two movements are expressing their discontent. I just felt election day was when the people I know who are on that Trump Train started loosing their minds. I don't think its fair to split hairs about 'having a reason to riot'. If people are motivated enough for thousands to get together and express they are angry that potential exists regardless of if it stays a peaceful protest or turns into a riot; and I think that restraint is kind of the point of this thread.

We could even examine how the violence that does exist is directed to identify patterns that reflect differences between the two sides..
It just says Video unavailable but seems to be called the Riot Song. Lol

https://open.spotify.com/album/6ZobwKLPgXjDJo6imrswZL?highlight=spotify:track:4Rh ZnY2435GRS3KLQnMHiW

[Grayswandir]

That may be true for some but its also worth noting the day of the riot the election was not certified so Trump had not lost yet. The entire public 'reason' for that gathering was to 'cheer on the congressmen pushing to stop the steal' or some nonsense.

In context to the conversation its about how differently two movements are expressing their discontent. I just felt election day was when the people I know who are on that Trump Train started loosing their minds. I don't think its fair to split hairs about 'having a reason to riot'. If people are motivated enough for thousands to get together and express they are angry that potential exists regardless of if it stays a peaceful protest or turns into a riot; and I think that restraint is kind of the point of this thread.

We could even examine how the violence that does exist is directed to identify patterns that reflect differences between the two sides..
It just says Video unavailable but seems to be called the Riot Song. Lol
Do you think Republican protests will become more violent in coming years? You mentioned thinking ppl will try to assassinate (public figures?), do you think it will be restricted to just that kind of protesting? The news I’m reading suggest a deep division between Republicans and Democrats. I mean half the country loves Trump to death and the other hate his guts. With how violent and polarized the political atmosphere seems to have become there, I wouldn’t be surprised if dialogue broke down completely (if it even exists anymore), and with it large scale chaos would emerge. Maybe I’m exaggerating but I’m thinking something like ppl legit forming mobs and beating ppl from the ‘other’ party due to all the pent up frustration and anger.

[Grayswandir]

I really don’t want to bring up how ppl seem very unwilling (according to various polls) to discuss their political beliefs or affilition, but I think that is a major contributor to all the chaos that’s happening right now. Not sure how widespread it is but I’ve heard horror stories of ppl getting fired for even appearing to challenge consensus (iirc this has been over the george floyd protests this summer, at the very least) or even losing their insurance over stating their political beliefs. I can easily see ppl going, ‘if I can’t be allowed to express my views, why should you?’ And basically censoring or attacking left-leaning ppl just bc.

[Helz]

Do you think Republican protests will become more violent in coming years? You mentioned thinking ppl will try to assassinate (public figures?), do you think it will be restricted to just that kind of protesting? The news I’m reading suggest a deep division between Republicans and Democrats. I mean half the country loves Trump to death and the other hate his guts. With how violent and polarized the political atmosphere seems to have become there, I wouldn’t be surprised if dialogue broke down completely (if it even exists anymore), and with it large scale chaos would emerge. Maybe I’m exaggerating but I’m thinking something like ppl legit forming mobs and beating ppl from the ‘other’ party due to all the pent up frustration and anger.

I mean.. Thats already happened to some degree. I was watching a thing on this team of ANTIFA guys who would pick fights with republicans. One would argue to distract him, then another would mace him in the face and a third would hit him with their fist or an object from the side or behind. There was even one dude that got killed being smashed in the back of the head with a brick at one point.

I do think they will become more violent. But I think that violence will be much more focused and directed than it was with the other protests. The logic structure of the two pushes is very different.

BLM:
Black people are poor and in prison so society must be against them so lets burn down society and steal the things
A cop killed a black man so all cops are racist so lets attack cops

Trumpsters:
The government is now illegitimate and I have no voice in society so lets attack the government
The election was rigged and politicians did it so lets attack politicians

I honestly think its more like 1/3 of republicans that love Trump but they are the most vocal about it. For most I think he was the lesser of two evils and many republicans are very anti-socialism.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I don’t think there’s any authoritarian regimes with an armed populace, and for a good reason. Europe and the like may not have authoritarian governments, so they don’t need guns yet. But wait until some dictatorship starts to emerge, and ppl will wish they had guns.

To address your points about the US and its stance on gun rights though, the problems in America are much older than ppl marching on the Capitol and trying to take over Congress by force: guns have played a very minor role in this... situation thus far.

Hillbillies with rifles are a real threat, but I think paying that price is worth it if it means you can defend yourself if the government wants to take your shit. Imagine how the Cuban/Russian Revolutions would’ve gone if ppl were armed. Imagine how Hitler’s rise to power could’ve been averted or at least Jews could’ve defended themselves if they were as well armed as Americans are.

I can imagine the corpses piling up, yes.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean they aren't an issue, and even less that they won't be.

Ah yes, it would be absolutely lovely if Belarusians had guns...