MafiaUniverse replaced the word ‘lynch’ with eliminate

[Ganelon]

LMAOOOO imagine being so triggered by ‘lynch’ that you have to replace it with eliminate... because of racial implications
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU/page2)

[MartinGG99]

LMAOOOO imagine being so triggered by ‘lynch’ that you have to replace it with eliminate... because of racial implications
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU/page2)

tbh info yeet > info lynch imo. Some peeps are using "yeet" instead of "elimination". Actually, there is no rule as to which to use, its only the modbot and site stuff that will use "eliminate".

From a personal perspective, I would agree with what Thingyman wrote about the majority of the cases of "lynch" have no negative intent. I have only used the term "lynch" because its what other players have used to describe a mechanic of the game.

However, as StealthBomber16 has recently pointed out (in instant mafia), Mafia is a game that often includes discovering the author's intent in many messages. Coming from that mindset in the game, I can only imagine that at least some people may mistakenly apply the idea that the usage of "lynch" in a message or messages might contain negative intentions or connotations simply because of the historical significance, and believe that to be the author's intent (and therefore be uncomfortable or offended).

I do think, though, misinterpretation on the author's intent isn't always the reader's fault. In extreme examples, if you were to communicate a message with nothing but a vast majority of swear words, and use that in trying to create a positive message, then the "misinterpretation" (that you had ill intent or non-positive intent) actually isn't the reader's fault there -- its most definitely yours for failing to consider how your intent might be read as. So, I do think there's some level of responsibility on authors of messages in general. And if they use the word "lynch" too carelessly, and someone misinterprets that and gets offended, that COULD be the author's fault, given that there are alternatives such as "execute" (Which was suggested in the original thread that brought the issue up!) that could be used.

Though given the popularity of "lynch" on this website, and that in many cases "lynch" often times has no negatively intended meaning form the author, I'm not going to really hold it against them others and I will just not use it much myself.

Oh and FYI they're currently debating a change in the MU logo image because, well, it contains a noose among other reasons.
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26439-YOUR-HELP-NEEDED-New-MU-Logo-Ideas

[MartinGG99]

Official ruling regarding the usage of "Lynch" on MU

Summary: Lynch has been replaced by Eliminate

Spurred on by this thread (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26241-We-really-need-to-change-the-word-lynch), the moderation and admin team have discussed and come to a conclusion on the matter of how to treat the word "lynch" on Mafia Universe.

As the staff sees it, this matter is very simple.

The word "lynch" is uncomfortable to a significant amount of users on MU, for understandable and valid reasons. Changing that one word to another word isn't gonna change how we play the game, and we're all ultimately here to play a game, and I hope that we also all want everyone to be happy whilst playing it.

So we will change the official usage from "lynch" to something else. I.e. the Modbot, OP's and threadmarks will use a different word going forward. What this word will be has not yet been determined, that's the next step for us to discuss.

The word "lynch" will not be banned. I.e. users may still use that terminology.

There are several reasons for this. One, this is an international site (and now we also have Partnered Communities) and for a majority of the world the word "lynch" does not have the same connotations as it does for Americans. Two, we frankly feel that the amount of users using the word intending it to carry negative racial connotations is so very low that this is not something we wish to moderate. Instead, we feel it's much more valuable for this to be something that the community can self-moderate, so to say.

In other words, we are making another word the site standard, and then the rest is up to the community.

This also means that we will NOT introduce the ability to customize the word for "lynch". We will find a common, standard term and use that for some time, to allow the community time to settle on that as the new common terminology, before introducing the option to customize. If we customize from the get-go, it will be more difficult and confusing for players - especially new players joining the site - to work out which terms to use.

The changes haven't been made yet, but they will be. We ask that you please be patient with us on this.

We will also be looking into changing the site logo. If you think you're the person for this job, please contact us.

Here's Thingyman's post btw, for refrence.

[Ganelon]

lynching has been around for literally thousands of years
witches were lynched in the middle ages
hell lynching will always prop up when vigilante justice emerges. it’s not strictly racial, people have been taking justice into their own hands since forever
in my 3 years of playing forum mafia and my ~6 years of playing the mod not ONCE have I seen people using the word lynch in a racist manner

which is besides the point anyways, it’s not racist and there’s no need for it to be.

[MartinGG99]

which is besides the point anyways, it’s not racist and there’s no need for it to be.

I don't think its inherently racist -- like many things in language and life context matters. And I do not imply that the vast majority of the use "lynch" has been racist (especially in the game of Mafia).

However, when there are alternatives to a word that can (or often do) mean the same thing, then it is not necessary to use that exact word and there is no need for it.

Like I said though, I'm not really going to hold it against anyone else on that point, but for me personally I am going to hold it against myself as a matter of holding myself to a disproportionate standard than I do for others.

I'm going to train myself to use words like "yeet" or "eliminate" or "execute" from now on. If someone gets confused by what I say, I can bring it up and explain or clarify very easily what I meant.

[SuperJack]

The term "Exterminate" would be better.

[BananaCucho]

Imagine getting your panties in a bunch over another site choosing to use one word instead of another word

[oops_ur_dead]

Imagine getting your panties in a bunch over another site choosing to use one word instead of another word

This tbh. Who the fuck cares.

[rumox]

petition to change lynch to yeet

[BananaCucho]

petition to change lynch to yeet

TRIGGERED

[rumox]

its a silly thing to do but at the same time i dont really care. never heard of anyone being uncomfortable with it before, and it never meant what people are conflating it with. just part of the hysteria reactions because of the tension overload currently going on tbh. it may be just some website choosing a different word sure, but it does raise an interesting thought on a more reaching aspect on it if it were to be done from a more powerful body.

but yeah like martin said its only the modbot that wont use the word lynch anymore, pretty sure everyone else can still say "yo lets lynch this dood"

[Ganelon]

Oh my fucking god MafiaScum did that too
MS is following suit?
have we all gone insane?

[Ganelon]

Like seriously...

[BananaCucho]

lmao imagine raging over something so silly

[oops_ur_dead]

Fuck politics and fuck outrage culture. Fuck identity politics and fuck all identitarians playing racial games and restricting language

fuck outrage culture i'm so mad at websites changing one word that i'm going to stop going on them

[Ganelon]

you think it stops there?
this shit is disgusting and reprehensible
we need to stop looking for racism everywhere

[BananaCucho]

lmao snowflake

[Voss]

why is this in serious discussion

[BananaCucho]

So much outrage over other sites changing a word

A word that doesnt even have any special meaning. Change that word to any other word and 0 mafia games are changed as a result. It bears no weight on the content of the games

Who cares

[Ganelon]

it bears weight on social attitudes. that’s why it’s ikportant. and can you imagine what sort of shit admins would agree to if they start pandering to snowflakes (at whom BS like this is primarily targeted)?

[BananaCucho]

Muh muh muh word that holds a special place in my heart!

[oops_ur_dead]

can you imagine what sort of shit admins would agree to if they start pandering to snowflakes (at whom BS like this is primarily targeted)?

yeah I can, the bot would say "lynch" instead of "eliminate".

[BananaCucho]

why is this in serious discussion

Cause 1 person is angry at a word being replaced on other websites in a niche corner of the internet

imo I propose that we create a separate "right wing circlejerk" subforum for ranty posts like this one

[BananaCucho]

yeah I can, the bot would say "lynch" instead of "eliminate".

THE HORROR

SNOWFLAKES RUINING MAFIA AHHHHH

[Voss]

i've also removed the word "lynch" from the narrator. i was embarrassed when my coworkers voted out the only black woman in our group, and it said "so and so was lynched by these people".

the inconvenience of me changing my language slightly is ok because I get to continue playing with people. My narcissism over misplaced sense of freedom of speech is trumped by my love of playing mafia with as many people as possible.

[Voss]

i've also removed the word "lynch" from the narrator. i was embarrassed when my coworkers voted out the only black woman in our group, and it said "so and so was lynched by these people".

the inconvenience of me changing my language slightly is ok because I get to continue playing with people. My narcissism over misplaced sense of freedom of speech is trumped by my love of playing mafia with as many people as possible.

this actually happened and my boss's boss was in on that game. i apologized to everyone involved. i didn't get mad because my freedom of speech was being trampled. i was sad to have caused another fellow human being discomfort in a game where we were all supposed to be having fun.

[Ganelon]

i would not play mafia with someone who felt offended by the word lynch

[BananaCucho]

i've also removed the word "lynch" from the narrator. i was embarrassed when my coworkers voted out the only black woman in our group, and it said "so and so was lynched by these people".

the inconvenience of me changing my language slightly is ok because I get to continue playing with people. My narcissism over misplaced sense of freedom of speech is trumped by my love of playing mafia with as many people as possible.

Hol up

So you made a change that has no bearing on the actual game, in an attempt to be more inclusive to others, under no social pressure to do so?

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE imma go to a niche website that hardly anybody visits and RAGE

[Voss]

i'd actually like to explore, probably in some other thread and in a more constructive manner what examples i could agree with mag here that "go too far". while not using the word lynch isn't something i'd agree, there's gotta be things we do agree on.

[S-FM Lembird Oshay]

Hol up

So you made a change that has no bearing on the actual game, in an attempt to be more inclusive to others, under no social pressure to do so?

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE imma go to a niche website that hardly anybody visits and RAGE

Lol!

[Voss]

maybe this hypothetical lends some perspective:

if every "x period of time" someone would get outraged over the new replacement for the word lynch, I'd probably get peeved too. Once a lifetime's good with me. Once a day is ridiculous. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.

And this doesn't just apply to the word lynch in mafia. There's a movement to change the word "master" in github to some other word like "main". If i had to say one is more ridiculous than the other, I'd say the github change is more ridiculous. But it still doesn't bother me and the company i work for to change it. But it'd probably start costing us resources if we had to change it every couple of months.

[deathworlds]

Lol!

In all seriousness, what Voss said 100%
This change has no meaning whatsoever, the ingame bot says 1 word differently than before, and they aren't moderating people using the word "lynch" as opposed to anything else.
It's really something pointless to get upset about imo

[deathworlds]

maybe this hypothetical lends some perspective:

if every "x period of time" someone would get outraged over the new replacement for the word lynch, I'd probably get peeved too. Once a lifetime's good with me. Once a day is ridiculous. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.

And this doesn't just apply to the word lynch in mafia. There's a movement to change the word "master" in github to some other word like "main". If i had to say one is more ridiculous than the other, I'd say the github change is more ridiculous. But it still doesn't bother me and the company i work for to change it. But it'd probably start costing us resources if we had to change it every couple of months.

Now the githib one I heard about and it's something I disagree with strictly because master is used in a completely functional sense,
like how do we know it isn't referring to bdsm? /s

[BananaCucho]

maybe this hypothetical lends some perspective:

if every "x period of time" someone would get outraged over the new replacement for the word lynch, I'd probably get peeved too. Once a lifetime's good with me. Once a day is ridiculous. Somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.

And this doesn't just apply to the word lynch in mafia. There's a movement to change the word "master" in github to some other word like "main". If i had to say one is more ridiculous than the other, I'd say the github change is more ridiculous. But it still doesn't bother me and the company i work for to change it. But it'd probably start costing us resources if we had to change it every couple of months.

Okay I'm glad you brought up the github thing. From what I've seen, there hasn't really been a movement, but rather github announcing that they want to use "racially neutral terms" and are therefore replacing "master". Was there actually a movement and social pressure to change this? I want to see examples if that's the case. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 people being outraged.

If a company decides that they want to make a change while under no social pressure to do so, I don't see how people can get mad at "outrage culture" over that. Companies rebrand all the time.

[Voss]

Okay I'm glad you brought up the github thing. From what I've seen, there hasn't really been a movement, but rather github announcing that they want to use "racially neutral terms" and are therefore replacing "master". Was there actually a movement and social pressure to change this? I want to see examples if that's the case. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 people being outraged.

If a company decides that they want to make a change while under no social pressure to do so, I don't see how people can get mad at "outrage culture" over that. Companies rebrand all the time.

it might have been a response from internal employee pressure, given the current events over george floyd. and i also bring this up because my company is pledging to change the name of this branch to whatever github decides it to be.

[BananaCucho]

Okay I'm glad you brought up the github thing. From what I've seen, there hasn't really been a movement, but rather github announcing that they want to use "racially neutral terms" and are therefore replacing "master". Was there actually a movement and social pressure to change this? I want to see examples if that's the case. And I'm not talking about 1 or 2 people being outraged.

If a company decides that they want to make a change while under no social pressure to do so, I don't see how people can get mad at "outrage culture" over that. Companies rebrand all the time.

This is why its silly to rage over 2 websites in a very niche thing like forum mafia making this change. 99% of people aren't even aware of forum mafia existing. There's been no public outcry over using the word "lynch"

Yet these 2 websites make a change that is essentially a rebrand in an attempt to retain users that may be uncomfortable with the term. Was there any movement? It seems like 99% of users on these websites don't care either way.

[oops_ur_dead]

The master vs main thing was definitely a bit iffier than "lynch", for sure. The connection to racism was dubious (not so for master/slave, which made much more sense to change). It was also clearly corporate virtue signalling, made much more glaring by the fact that Github has contracts with ICE.

But I still don't really care because it's such a tiny change. Also if the migration causes you a less than insignificant amount of headache to change then your code was probably garbage anyway and you need to sort that out more than anything.

[BananaCucho]

it might have been a response from internal employee pressure, given the current events over george floyd. and i also bring this up because my company is pledging to change the name of this branch to whatever github decides it to be.

Might have been. Do we have any evidence for this? (I actually don't know and welcome it if there is) Otherwise its just speculation

[oops_ur_dead]

This is why its silly to rage over 2 websites in a very niche thing like forum mafia making this change. 99% of people aren't even aware of forum mafia existing. There's been no public outcry over using the word "lynch"

Yet these 2 websites make a change that is essentially a rebrand in an attempt to retain users that may be uncomfortable with the term. Was there any movement? It seems like 99% of users on these websites don't care either way.

Yeah with the vast majority of these types of changes I always hear about them solely from right-wingers freaking the FUCK out over muh freeze peach. Liberals and leftists don't particularly care about this shit for the most part.

[deathworlds]

Yeah with the vast majority of these types of changes I always hear about them solely from right-wingers freaking the FUCK out over muh freeze peach. Liberals and leftists don't particularly care about this shit for the most part.

Yeah I'd hardly consider a few dozen to a hundred people on twitter a movement

[Voss]

Might have been. Do we have any evidence for this? (I actually don't know and welcome it if there is) Otherwise its just speculation

for me, it's extrapolation because that's what happened in my workplace.

[BananaCucho]

Yeah with the vast majority of these types of changes I always hear about them solely from right-wingers freaking the FUCK out over muh freeze peach. Liberals and leftists don't particularly care about this shit for the most part.

Exactly, I dont really give a fuck about changing the word here. It never crossed my mind

But posting "should we change this word on sc2mafia" is so so tempting just to see certain people rage about it

[BananaCucho]

for me, it's extrapolation because that's what happened in my workplace.

So internal employees at your workplace expressed this outrage? Interesting. At my workplace there hasn't been any talk at all (that I'm aware of at least) about it

[Voss]

it might have been a response from internal employee pressure, given the current events over george floyd. and i also bring this up because my company is pledging to change the name of this branch to whatever github decides it to be.

i meant that it was internal employee pressure, given the current events over george floyd, but i wouldn't classify it as outrage.

not sure if this distinction matters though.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

1: Making this a reality causes inevitable judgement towards people who use the word "lynch" and puts them in a bad light for using the word in a perfectly correct way.

2: Making this a reality sets a dangerous precedent, a precedent that is "whatever may offend someone for unreasonable reasons in a certain context will become officially frowned upon by the moderators". It's not really over the one word, but over the principle that will apply to more words (and eventually to ideas, for words are the reflexion of ideas).

3: The point is logically wrong. It's like saying that all games about World War 2 should remove all references to nazis or to their acts because they were abominable. In Mafia, people KILL people, literally say as a group that someone should DIE, whatever you want to call it, and those things are also rather horrible in real life... but it's part of the game. And again, opening the door to the point against the word "lynch" opens the door against the principle of usage of words referring to horrible things. But we [B]need those words to talk about realities.


Now, I don't blame Voss for having done that on Narrator after pressure from people at his work, because hey, it's his work lol... but it doesn't make the move right and it doesn't make it good to apply to a larger-scale organization such as Sc2 Mafia.

P.S. stop using hellions when you play against zergs in sc2, it's a genocide :(


Is it really alright to just call them "dark" templar

[BananaCucho]

1: Making this a reality causes inevitable judgement towards people who use the word "lynch" and puts them in a bad light for using the word in a perfectly correct way.

2: Making this a reality sets a dangerous precedent, a precedent that is "whatever may offend someone for unreasonable reasons in a certain context will become officially frowned upon by the moderators". It's not really over the one word, but over the principle that will apply to more words (and eventually to ideas, for words are the reflexion of ideas).

3: The point is logically wrong. It's like saying that all games about World War 2 should remove all references to nazis or to their acts because they were abominable. In Mafia, people KILL people, literally say as a group that someone should DIE, whatever you want to call it, and those things are also rather horrible in real life... but it's part of the game. And again, opening the door to the point against the word "lynch" opens the door against the principle of usage of words referring to horrible things. But we [B]need those words to talk about realities.


Now, I don't blame Voss for having done that on Narrator after pressure from people at his work, because hey, it's his work lol... but it doesn't make the move right and it doesn't make it good to apply to a larger-scale organization such as Sc2 Mafia.

P.S. stop using hellions when you play against zergs in sc2, it's a genocide :(

Nobody has requested this to even happen at sc2mafia

OP is literally ranting over something happening at other sites lol

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Nobody has requested this to even happen at sc2mafia

OP is literally ranting over something happening at other sites lol

Some people were saying that it basically "wasn't that bad", and I'm saying actually is rather bad. If you think it just doesn't matter, well uh, do what you want I guess? :P

[BananaCucho]

Some people were saying that it basically "wasn't that bad", and I'm saying actually is rather bad. If you think it just doesn't matter, well uh, do what you want I guess? :P

I'm really confused right now, and the fact that I'm a little tipsy may have something to do with that

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I'm really confused right now, and the fact that I'm a little tipsy may have something to do with that

When in doubt, Varcron

This is more or less a meme topic lol

[BananaCucho]

When in doubt, Varcron

This is more or less a meme topic lol

Not to OP its not lol

[Voss]

When in doubt, Varcron

This is more or less a meme topic lol

this is serious discussion.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

this is serious discussion.

Fair, it was placed here, so that is to be respected.

[DJarJar]

I’ll change it rn don’t tempt me

[DJarJar]

The Godfather will now say “x player has been GanelOwned”

[DJarJar]

Any objections?

[BananaCucho]

The Godfather will now say “x player has been GanelOwned”

rofl

Do it

[BananaCucho]

While on the topic, why do we use a Godfather? Why don't we use something starcraft related? Like Kerrigan? Why not actually theme "Starcraft 2 Mafia" around Starcraft?

[Renegade]

While on the topic, why do we use a Godfather? Why don't we use something starcraft related? Like Kerrigan? Why not actually theme "Starcraft 2 Mafia" around Starcraft?

Mengsk faction (mafia) and a Swarm Kerrigan faction (triad). Mengsk has ppl like Nova for assasinations etc.

HMMMM

[Sylvanas]

Is it really alright to just call them "dark" templar
You're supposed to call them templar of color, but NOT colored templar, everyone would lose their shit.

[Stealthbomber16]

Varcron

[BananaCucho]

Varcron

[BananaCucho]

Oh look more ranting, yawn

[Ganelon]

i've also removed the word "lynch" from the narrator. i was embarrassed when my coworkers voted out the only black woman in our group, and it said "so and so was lynched by these people".

the inconvenience of me changing my language slightly is ok because I get to continue playing with people. My narcissism over misplaced sense of freedom of speech is trumped by my love of playing mafia with as many people as possible.
Freedom of speech is not narcisstic and I don’t know why you’d label it as such. Freedom of speech is the most fundamental freedom there is. If people can’t speak freely, they can’t think freely. Also, there is virtually no relationship between lynching in mafia and the historical practice of lynching black oriole. I would not feel the slightest bit offended if I as a black person got lynched in the game of mafia. People attack far too great an importance to innocuous words such as this one. You literally have to distort its meaning and context to get to racial phrases.

I’ll repeat this once again, if people are offended by the word lynch in the context of mafia (which denotes angry townfolks coming together to lynch traitors/scoundrels in their midst), they either don’t understand the context or they need to sort themselves out.

[secondpassing]

I think we should allow the word lynch in forum mafia, especially if we don't have anyone complaining about it's use.

[DJarJar]

I think we should allow the word lynch in forum mafia, especially if we don't have anyone complaining about it's use.

That's not what the discussion is about though. It's about simply changing the forum bot to say a different word besides lynch

[BananaCucho]

That's not what the discussion is about though. It's about simply changing the forum bot to say a different word besides lynch

It should just say "REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE"

[secondpassing]

That's not what the discussion is about though. It's about simply changing the forum bot to say a different word besides lynch

Same opinion. The forum bot should just the word that is most natural when thinking about killing a certain person from your group. You could say, "Sentenced to death by firing squad," but that seems too wordy. Mafia was also developed around the time lynchings were a thing.

[Voss]

first a little context. in the game that I hosted, there were 16 people. we had two asian men (one of which was my boss), 1 white woman (my boss's boss's boss), and a black woman. that leaves 12 white men.

let's break this down.


Freedom of speech is not narcissistic and I don’t know why you’d label it as such.

It's narcissistic to take it to the point of making a big stink over things that don't really matter. A more appropriate violation of freedom of speech is something like a government jailing it's citizens for talking about the holocaust, because the government wants to deny it happen. Or a government censoring newspapers because the newspaper is exposing dirt on authorities. Not over not being allowed to use some word.

Sure, I could have asserted my right to freedom of speech to my boss's boss's boss started to look uncomfortable when everyone's phones started narrating at loud volume: "ANGELA WAS LYNCHED BY BRIAN, RYAN, JEFFREY, GREG, KEVIN, AND KEVIN." It's my right to say what I want in a game. I could have even said afterward too: "Yes!!! we LYNCHED angela! good job team!" It would not have gone over well and that would have probably been the last time I would have played mafia with my coworkers.

So yes, I swallowed what would have been self centeredness and gave up my right to force my word choice to instead choose promote a better community.


Freedom of speech is the most fundamental freedom there is. If people can’t speak freely, they can’t think freely.

Your thread here would have generated a lot more sympathy if you had been banned for using the word "lynch" on their site. That would actually be a freedom of speech violation because you're expressing yourself and they are stifling it.

That's not what happened on MU.

The community leaders wish to express their bot code differently. They have the utmost freedom to decide what their bot says. And, in that opening post, they specifically say they won't moderate others from using the word "lynch" because they recognize the world doesn't revolve around America. And if you're offended by these facts on MU, you can leave, which you did. Everyone's free in this free freedom space of free.

This is some backwards irony here.


Also, there is virtually no relationship between lynching in mafia and the historical practice of lynching black oriole.

Here are some examples of americans lynching black people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lynching_deaths_in_Mississippi

These were gruesome executions carried out by a majority in a community. Hmm, that sounds a lot like how we do lynchings here on sc2mafia in the forums. A majority lynches someone they suspect of some alleged wrong doing.

With the mod, it's worse. You have depictions of someone being gassed (if i recall correctly "jew" used to trigger that, but was removed), someone being burned alive, and someone being shot by firing squad. I forget if hanging is coded in there too. Here's an example of people being burned alive in Mississippi, just to really connect people lynched by fire in the mod to historical practices. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynching_of_Roosevelt_Townes_and_Robert_McDaniels.

There is a relationship between the word "lynch" and historical practices of lynching black people. A more defensible argument would be that it's not the only example in the world. There were and are other lynchings that have taken place around the world, at different times. But in significant communities in America, "lynch" is a scary throwback to darker historical violence. These people don't need to be reminded of this in a just for fun game.


I would not feel the slightest bit offended if I as a black person got lynched in the game of mafia. People attack far too great an importance to innocuous words such as this one. You literally have to distort its meaning and context to get to racial phrases.

You're not black, nor do you live in the deep American South, so you have literally no clue whether you'd feel offended or not. If anything, this looks more like you (i think a white man) dictating how a black man ought to feel; the optics of which is funny, to say the least.

I could say here, if I was pretending to be Ganelon pretending to be black, I would get offended by this community's insistence on using the word lynch. But that's equally as ridiculous.


I’ll repeat this once again, if people are offended by the word lynch in the context of mafia (which denotes angry townfolks coming together to lynch traitors/scoundrels(or black people if you're in the historical american south) in their midst), they either don’t understand the context or they need to sort themselves out.

Personally, I'd rather not be the authority on whether people need to sort themselves out, and look to see if there are easy things that I can do to get more people into playing mafia. I will gladly trade one word during a 2.5 hours for 2.5 hours of fun in my favorite fucking game in the world.

Sorry. What that last sentence should read is:

I will gladly edit one word in my code for hours and hours of fun on a mafia app with a greater selection of people, knowing that these people (who might have some problems) aren't being "triggered" by something I wrote.

[Voss]

Same opinion. The forum bot should just the word that is most natural when thinking about killing a certain person from your group. You could say, "Sentenced to death by firing squad," but that seems too wordy. Mafia was also developed around the time lynchings were a thing.

Who cares if it's wordy. No one has to type it over and over again. It's a code change. And I absolutely fucking bet people aren't even reading the text. They just look for the Voss ping.

[Voss]

That's not what the discussion is about though. It's about simply changing the forum bot to say a different word besides lynch

Would just like to re-emphasize this.

The discussion here and on MU is not about banning players from using the word MU. No one's rights are being infringed upon here.

To me it seems like we, as a community, have an outrage over another community's exercise of their freedom of speech in some text in an app. It's hypocritical.

[secondpassing]

Who cares if it's wordy. No one has to type it over and over again. It's a code change. And I absolutely fucking bet people aren't even reading the text. They just look for the Voss ping.

If that's what people want to do to the Godfather who announces the day-end post, it's fine, I'm not going to get my pants in a jimmy because of it, but I still disagree with the reasoning behind it. I mean, I don't actually know how many people we're turning off of mafia by using the word lynch.

Like are we putting it up to a vote? I'm just going to say the word isn't offensive enough to warrant a change. That's all.

[BananaCucho]

Replace Godfather with a mothership

Replace lynch with pew pew pew

[Voss]

Same opinion. The forum bot should just the word that is most natural when thinking about killing a certain person from your group. You could say, "Sentenced to death by firing squad," but that seems too wordy. Mafia was also developed around the time lynchings were a thing.


Who cares if it's wordy. No one has to type it over and over again. It's a code change. And I absolutely fucking bet people aren't even reading the text. They just look for the Voss ping.


If that's what people want to do to the Godfather who announces the day-end post, it's fine, I'm not going to get my pants in a jimmy because of it, but I still disagree with the reasoning behind it. I mean, I don't actually know how many people we're turning off of mafia by using the word lynch.

Like are we putting it up to a vote? I'm just going to say the word isn't offensive enough to warrant a change. That's all.

my post to you came off stronger than i intended, and i apologize for that.

[secondpassing]

my post to you came off stronger than i intended, and i apologize for that.

Apology accepted? but only if you snap your fingers four times in real life while holding your breath.

[secondpassing]

Replace Godfather with a mothership

Replace lynch with pew pew pew

^This. We need this.

[yzb25]

As Voss said, there's an interesting conversation about how far we're willing to go scrubbing our language to meet our sensibilities. Language holds a lot more value than some crappy statues.

If a secular gov.t decided they weren't gonna say goodbye any more because the language favoured monotheists, once a lifetime or not I'd probably be pissed too lol.

There's an interesting argument about whether we're actually doing this with good intentions or just white washing language for our own self satisfaction. Part of the reason people can downplay how bad certain historical atrocities like racism really were is because we've carefully scrubbed modern allusions to it for our own comfort.

We're viewing this from the POV of (I assume) 16-30yos roughly. If you hit 80 and find a considerable portion of the words you grew intimate with got the once-in-a-lifetime treatment, perhaps you'd have a more wary view of this.

I don't think this is rolling out the carpet to Orwell's future or whatnot, but we always end up having the same arguments with the same sides. I'm just trying to liven it up a bit heh

[yzb25]

My mate's dad went through a lot of racism in his childhood here, and was part of some of the demonstrations for equal rights in the 80s. He has a very cynical attitude to moves like this. He says white people are simply hiding from their past. Given there are definitely POC who want these changes, that's not a totally fair assessment, but he regards those POC as indulging in their own way.

[Ganelon]

lol yzb that is definitely a huge part of it. fixing language is extremely simple and it allows you to, most reprehensibly, feel good about yourself for ‘helping to end racism’ or whatever, when in fact this and other things like it have the OPPOSITE effect

[Ganelon]

Replace Godfather with a mothership

Replace lynch with pew pew pew
yes but you need to add animations and lock the execution behind a post requirement.

[Ganelon]

yes Voss there is a relationship between LYNCHING and American blacks beung lynched
however people have been getting lynched for thousands of years. and it WILL happen again in places where justice cannot be dispensed by the law. it will probably happen on our first space colonies.

[Ganelon]

as it stands, lynching people in mafia is completely different than lynching blacks in America. you lynch people in this game to root out evil. Lynching blacks happens for the exact opposite reason

[Ganelon]

anyways just like MM I understand why you changed the word on narrator. I too would change it if it meant losing my
job (potentially) if I didn’t do it, so I’m not attacking you over that dw

[Ganelon]

Voss, I can tell you I know I wouldn’t be offended. I’m Jewish (ethnically, not religiously) and I literally make racist jokes about Jews all the time. I’m not a person that gets offended over racial stereotypes, because honestly, if a joke is funny (and is just a joke), why not laugh at it?
Racist jokes are not toxic. In fact, jokes in general (except for jokes about VERY recent disasters - someone in my Uni meme chat made memes about the notre dame fire immediately after the event and that was a huge wtf) aren’t. if jokes aren’t offensive, how could words that have nothing to do with racial problems be?

[Ganelon]

Id be a lot more amenable to this if the word used was ‘gassed’, because I literally cannot think of any other context where that was used. even then, hey, it’s just a word, I wouldn’t care if you guys ‘gassed’ me instead of lynching me.

[DJarJar]

lol yzb that is definitely a huge part of it. fixing language is extremely simple and it allows you to, most reprehensibly, feel good about yourself for ‘helping to end racism’ or whatever, when in fact this and other things like it have the OPPOSITE effect
Why does it have to be virtue signaling? Maybe instead they're simply trying to send a message to their black players that they support them? Idk how big MU is, but in a small community a message like that from your admins actually means something. I don't think it's the same as the large companies that send out automated "we support BLM" messages.


as it stands, lynching people in mafia is completely different than lynching blacks in America. you lynch people in this game to root out evil. Lynching blacks happens for the exact opposite reason
But does a newcomer know that? As Voss's anecdote showed, it can put off newcomers.

[Ganelon]

anyway my problem with this word change - and where I think everyone is missing the point, isn’t the word change per se. I don’t give a shit if a website changes their ModBot word to something. My problem is the underlying attitude that led to the word change even becoming an issue in the first place.

[Ganelon]

Why does it have to be virtue signaling? Maybe instead they're simply trying to send a message to their black players that they support them? Idk how big MU is, but in a small community a message like that from your admins actually means something. I don't think it's the same as the large companies that send out automated "we support BLM" messages.


But does a newcomer know that? As Voss's anecdote showed, it can put off newcomers.
we support everyone, and we don’t even know peoples skin color on this site. I don’t think sending messages is necessary when the message is implied. ii don’t know exactly what it betrays, but it definitely shows something that you don’t want to show to the outside world

[Ganelon]

anyway, sorry if my tone was too harsh. I was just really angry. I wasn’t attacking anyone on this website, as I don’t think anyone here would want to change the word lynch to something else (especially seeing as there’s no reason to, lol)

[oops_ur_dead]

Why are you trying to police MU's speech though? That is quite SJW to say that they should use a certain word because using a different word hurts your feelings.

[Ganelon]

lmao I’m SJW for what? I’m not policing anyone’s speech, if they want to use the word eliminate that’s their fucking problem. The change however is stupid and coming from a place of where the admins want to feel good about themselves for ‘fighting to end racism!!’ lol

[Ganelon]

I like how you literally call me SJW for feeling strongly about this and yet won’t call out the site changing a word that didn’t need changing.

[oops_ur_dead]

I think it's pretty oppressive to their free speech to force them into using a certain word....

[Ganelon]

lmao ok

[Exeter350]

Mag's right, it's dumb as hell. It's as if these people are actively looking for things to get upset over, then demand that the world change for them.

Lynch is a racist word? Shit, in the future we can't say "arrest" because of recent events in the US either.

It's ridiculous and certainly shouldn't be encouraged or supported.

What, we gonna censor a new word every other week?
Then come up with new terms to refer to the same damn thing?

Odd place to be posting about this though.

[BananaCucho]

Varcron

[oops_ur_dead]

Smh I can't believe regressives are trying so hard to pressure someone into using speech that they like. The guy made the bot and coded it himself, let him do what he wants with it ffs.

[BananaCucho]

"Regressives", nice, I'mma start using that

[Ganelon]

Idk what you’re talking about I’m not pressuring anyone, the point is that people pressured the ModBot owner to change it.

[oops_ur_dead]

But you're criticizing him for expressing his free speech...

[Ganelon]

this is literally mental gymnastics. I’m out

[BananaCucho]

Throws tantrum over something happening on another site

Throws tantrum and takes his ball home when people disagree with him

Classic

[oops_ur_dead]

It's mental gymnastics to claim that throwing criticism at someone for using a certain word over another is suppressing their free speech? Isn't that exactly what your own argument is?

I don't personally care which word he uses, it's his right as the creator and if he feels like he wants to use a certain word to be kinder to others then so be it. The only pressuring I see is coming from opponents like you who want him to use a specific word against his will.

[Voss]

Id be a lot more amenable to this if the word used was ‘gassed’, because I literally cannot think of any other context where that was used. even then, hey, it’s just a word, I wouldn’t care if you guys ‘gassed’ me instead of lynching me.

"If I was a jewish person, I wouldn't feel bad if we used the word gassed instead of lynch. There are other times in history where gassing has been done outside of Germany 1940s". (To be clear, I don't agree with this logic, now am I advocating for the word gassed to be used. I'm just demonstrating how this doesn't work.)

I get why the americans here don't associate lynchings with horrible black killings in the south, and instead associate it to a way to remove someone from the mafia game. They learned the game in middle school so they learned to associate that word first. Then they learned about Jim Crow. American schools aren't too keen to show the attrocities that historical America has committed. But imagine a scenario where we did teach that to our kids. It'd be fucking weird to use lynchings as a word in mafia at that point. Either the game wouldn't have been played, or another word would be used.

Just because you don't see how lynch could be racial in another country (that you don't live in), doesn't mean it doesn't have connotations.

But. I'll admit, "lynch" doesn't hold a strong connotation for me, as I'm not black and didn't grow up with these connotations. I am willing to have the empathy to see that it could cause discomfort for others in a game.

Mafia isn't supposed to be about how the person dies, it's supposed to be about social deduction.

Like, what if our word here was "fucked", and we were all used to it. And someone came to our site saying that's weird, and we had to tell them "oh no! we don't mean literal fucking, we just mean that they're out of the game".

And even if I would concede the point that it's not racial, there's violent aspect to the word "lynch". Eliminated, executed, voted out, are all equivalent. And on the site here it's common enough to say "lets vote for x" instead of "lets lynch x" although the latter is also said.

[BananaCucho]

Can we please change lynched to fucked? This is the best suggestion yet Voss and I won't be satisfied until everyone uses it

[SuperJack]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtsM2q_UcAImNib.jpg

[BananaCucho]

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/customavatars/avatar8508_20.gif

[SuperJack]

I vote for Lynch to be switched to Fucked.

[Voss]

i would not play mafia with someone who felt offended by the word lynch

My goal here isn't to get anyone to stop using the word lynch in their own language. My problem here is that freedom of speech is being perverted to belittle and attack another site's right to express themselves the way they want, for whatever reason they want. And there are assumptions that are being made about that staff's intentions that are pure speculation.

If anything, this thread(and specifically this post) has shown that Sc2mafia would rather make a point to be less inclusive than to have a meaningful conversation on the pros and cons of their decision.

We will never know how many people we turn away because of our word lynch. However, a legitimate devil's advocate to this would be that the number is not significant, and there are other areas that we can improve to make sc2mafia a more inclusive community. That number is almost certainly not zero though.

[Voss]

LMAOOOO imagine being so triggered by ‘lynch’ that you have to replace it with eliminate... because of racial implications
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU/page2)

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26241-We-really-need-to-change-the-word-lynch

the thread owner, Amrock, is a person of color, and while he's not staff, he's a big community pillar in MU. He even liked narrator and organizes a bunch of games on MU. However, when there were racist slurs being used by people in games he was hosting in the narrator discord channel, he politely said that he didn't want to be a part of the narrator community, because I was too slow to act. And when he left, he didn't just take himself. The people that he brought weren't as interested in playing in narrator because he wasn't organizing them.

So that there is an actual player cost of not being inclusive. Fuck him right? Fuck someone else's feelings. I should rather let someone that was organizing community narrator games daily go, and have my misplaced sense of freedom of speech.

[BananaCucho]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26241-We-really-need-to-change-the-word-lynch

the thread owner, Amrock, is a person of color, and while he's not staff, he's a big community pillar in MU. He even liked narrator and organizes a bunch of games on MU. However, when there were racist slurs being used by people in games he was hosting in the narrator discord channel, he politely said that he didn't want to be a part of the narrator community, because I was too slow to act. And when he left, he didn't just take himself. The people that he brought weren't as interested in playing in narrator because he wasn't organizing them.

So that there is an actual player cost of not being inclusive. Fuck him right? Fuck someone else's feelings. I should rather let someone that was organizing community narrator games daily go, and have my misplaced sense of freedom of speech.

Some people only care about player retention when it isn't an inconvenience to themselves or their personal beliefs unfortunately.

[BananaCucho]

I want to thank Voss for helping me see things this way. I didn't really care about the word and it's use on sc2mafia, but now I am #TeamFucked. Let's replace the word here too.

[oops_ur_dead]

I prefer yeeted, so that we can appeal to the younger generation.

[BananaCucho]

We should have a poll to decide which word is best

Fucked is good
yeeted is semi-okay
Pew pew pew is pretty awesome

[Voss]

We should have a poll to decide which word is best

Fucked is good
yeeted is semi-okay
Pew pew pew is pretty awesome

single vote polls in a multiple choice selection is how trump got elected.

[BananaCucho]

Fuck I just got schooled

Also can "Schooled" be an option?

What about the godfather has a list of 4-5 words and randomly chooses one

[oops_ur_dead]

Going with the theme of suppression of free speech, I propose we change "lynched" to "cancelled"

[BananaCucho]

Damn that one's pretty good

"deathworlds has been cancelled! Stand by for (maybe, if the host isn't terrible) the host's day end post and review!"

[Voss]

i thought about proposing "disappeared" but that's spooky as fuck.

[BananaCucho]

i thought about proposing "disappeared" but that's spooky as fuck.

Could fit a spooky/ghosty theme! What about a Godfather that is customizable - each host could change the avatar and kill word depending on their theme?

[deathworlds]

Damn that one's pretty good

"deathworlds has been cancelled! Stand by for (maybe, if the host isn't terrible) the host's day end post and review!"

We did it boys, deathworlds is no more"

[deathworlds]

Could fit a spooky/ghosty theme! What about a Godfather that is customizable - each host could change the avatar and kill word depending on their theme?

This is the first actual good suggestion to come out of this thread

[Ganelon]

My goal here isn't to get anyone to stop using the word lynch in their own language. My problem here is that freedom of speech is being perverted to belittle and attack another site's right to express themselves the way they want, for whatever reason they want. And there are assumptions that are being made about that staff's intentions that are pure speculation.

If anything, this thread(and specifically this post) has shown that Sc2mafia would rather make a point to be less inclusive than to have a meaningful conversation on the pros and cons of their decision.

We will never know how many people we turn away because of our word lynch. However, a legitimate devil's advocate to this would be that the number is not significant, and there are other areas that we can improve to make sc2mafia a more inclusive community. That number is almost certainly not zero though.
This community is inclusive as fuck. It’s an online community and nobody gives a hoot about anyone else’s skin colour, group allegiance or any other charactetistic. SC2Mafia does not need to be more inclusive than it already is. And if people get turned away because of an innocuous word, that’s on them, not on us.
Nobody is being belittled or attacked here. Everyone is acting like I want their freedom of speech stifled; I don’t give a shit what word they use; again, the issue is the attitude that led to the change in the first place, not the action. The action itself is meaningless.

[BananaCucho]

:toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette:

[Ganelon]

"If I was a jewish person, I wouldn't feel bad if we used the word gassed instead of lynch. There are other times in history where gassing has been done outside of Germany 1940s". (To be clear, I don't agree with this logic, now am I advocating for the word gassed to be used. I'm just demonstrating how this doesn't work.)

I get why the americans here don't associate lynchings with horrible black killings in the south, and instead associate it to a way to remove someone from the mafia game. They learned the game in middle school so they learned to associate that word first. Then they learned about Jim Crow. American schools aren't too keen to show the attrocities that historical America has committed. But imagine a scenario where we did teach that to our kids. It'd be fucking weird to use lynchings as a word in mafia at that point. Either the game wouldn't have been played, or another word would be used.

Just because you don't see how lynch could be racial in another country (that you don't live in), doesn't mean it doesn't have connotations.

But. I'll admit, "lynch" doesn't hold a strong connotation for me, as I'm not black and didn't grow up with these connotations. I am willing to have the empathy to see that it could cause discomfort for others in a game.

Mafia isn't supposed to be about how the person dies, it's supposed to be about social deduction.

Like, what if our word here was "fucked", and we were all used to it. And someone came to our site saying that's weird, and we had to tell them "oh no! we don't mean literal fucking, we just mean that they're out of the game".

And even if I would concede the point that it's not racial, there's violent aspect to the word "lynch". Eliminated, executed, voted out, are all equivalent. And on the site here it's common enough to say "lets vote for x" instead of "lets lynch x" although the latter is also said.
I’ve played mafia for a very long time and literally not a single time have I heard or seen anyone use the term lynch in a racist way. You don’t even get this in the mod, with its visual executions and the ability to pick black ‘skins’ or whatever that customization option is called.
theres no reason for people to feel offended at this word. if it’s so racist, why has it literally taken ~10 years for something to be done about it? this was not a serious topic of discussion a year ago, much less somebting that people would’ve pushed through. the only reason this change happened was because of the george Floyd protests/riots.

yes, there’s indeed a violent aspect to it, but you know what? this is a game about deceiving others, lynching, manipulation, and killing people at night. if people are so thin skinned as not to be able to come to terms with that, maybe they’re better off not playing this game.

[Ganelon]

The problem is that I *am* Jewish; its not a hypothetical. And I’m telling you that if the word we used was ‘gassed’ I literally wouldn’t give a shit.

[BananaCucho]

I’ve played mafia for a very long time and literally not a single time have I heard or seen anyone use the term lynch in a racist way. You don’t even get this in the mod, with its visual executions and the ability to pick black ‘skins’ or whatever that customization option is called.
theres no reason for people to feel offended at this word. if it’s so racist, why has it literally taken ~10 years for something to be done about it? this was not a serious topic of discussion a year ago, much less somebting that people would’ve pushed through. the only reason this change happened was because of the george Floyd protests/riots.

yes, there’s indeed a violent aspect to it, but you know what? this is a game about deceiving others, lynching, manipulation, and killing people at night. if people are so thin skinned as not to be able to come to terms with that, maybe they’re better off not playing this game.

You literally want to punish any type of emotional mafia play, such as insinuating a player's intelligence is not up to speed to comprehend current events, so as not to drive people away from the site. Where's this "get some thicker skin" attitude there?

So do you want to retain people or do you not care, which is it :spinda:

[Ganelon]

I really, really think that in spite of all of our shortcomings, SC2Mafia is doing much better than most other sites when it comes to the general culture.

[BananaCucho]

:spinda::spinda::spinda::spinda::spinda:

[BananaCucho]

So much name calling from the person who apparently wants everyone to feel welcome

[Voss]

:toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette: :toadette::toadette::toadette::toadette:

while we have similar views here banana, this is serious discussion.

[Voss]

The problem is that I *am* Jewish; its not a hypothetical. And I’m telling you that if the word we used was ‘gassed’ I literally wouldn’t give a shit.

i misinterpreted your original idea and can concede that you have some very thick skin. Most jewish people that I know would be "wtf no that's not ok".

[BananaCucho]

while we have similar views here banana, this is serious discussion.

I apologize Sensei

https://media1.tenor.com/images/b0062b442f7cbebb1719de0ce46636bf/tenor.gif (https://media1.tenor.com/images/b0062b442f7cbebb1719de0ce46636bf/tenor.gif?itemid=16748834)

[Ganelon]

Seeing as I said some less than nice things in this thread, I’ve deleted my own posts as one directly hurt site integrity. I apologize for this and I will refrain from posting the problematic things I’ve posted in the future.
No, I still think it’s ridiculous and even dishonest to change the word lynch, but that’s a different issue.

[Voss]

let's break this down.


I’ve played mafia for a very long time and literally not a single time have I heard or seen anyone use the term lynch in a racist way. You don’t even get this in the mod, with its visual executions and the ability to pick black ‘skins’ or whatever that customization option is called.

I'm glad you haven't had negative racial experiences against you, but that's not the case with everyone in the world. Just because you haven't had them doesn't mean others have not. And just because you haven't had them, doesn't mean their experiences should be invalidated.


theres no reason for people to feel offended at this word.

let me correct this for you:

"i don't care about the reasons that other people might feel offended with this word because i've never been affected by it."


if it’s so racist, why has it literally taken ~10 years for something to be done about it?

about 170 years ago one could have used similar logic for lynching black. "ten years ago it was ok to lynch people! why do anything about it now!!" this argument is ridiculous for not one but two reasons. using the word "lynch" in a game is not the same as murdering black people. but it's also ridiculous because just because we did something 10 years ago, doesn't mean it's still ok to do it now.


this was not a serious topic of discussion a year ago, much less somebting that people would’ve pushed through. the only reason this change happened was because of the george Floyd protests/riots.


seems like you're invalidating the george floyd protests by calling them riots. sure there were some riots, but what does rioting have to do with "lynch" on the mu site.

protests sure. the protests have once again put police killings (some could call it lynchings) back in the forefront of the american spotlight.

and you're actually absolutely right that the reactionto george floyd's murder caused this change. Amrock says as much in his thread, the thread that the MU community leaders eludes to as much.

i don't think that invalidates the sentiment though.


yes, there’s indeed a violent aspect to it, but you know what? this is a game about deceiving others, lynching, manipulation, and killing people at night. if people are so thin skinned as not to be able to come to terms with that, maybe they’re better off not playing this game.

this could be it's own topic all together, but parts of this upcoming rant are related to what we're tlaking about here.

personally, i'm not a huge fan of the role play that goes on in mafia. i actually watched a game of DnD the other day and now that I actually know what it is, I would never play it myself. I only like as much flavor as i need to understand the mechanics of the game, the mechanics that make things easy to explain. take arsonist for example. it's easier to explain that someone is dousing someone with something flammable, gasoline, and at some later point in time, everyone doused will die. and that people can lie about being doused, and that we don't know when it's optimal for the arsonist to blow everyone up.

and back to your point, yes the game is about deceiving others, manipulation, but i don't really want to dwell on the fact that we're killing people. they're just out of the game, and it's up to their teammates to win it all for them. i don't want to dwell on the fact that people are being killed by the mafia (by the way those killings are brutal), or lynchings (because those are also brutal). i don't want to role play that stuff. just focus on the lies and trickery and social deduction.

and i also find that i can sell this game to other older people when i focus less on the role play, and more on the social deduction aspects.

and that's one of my main points here. it's stupid to get worked over some tradition that might hurt others and it's stupid to not give a fuck about them. and it's stupid to generalize that these people would be not fun to play with. it's stereotypical nonsense.

[Voss]

Seeing as I said some less than nice things in this thread, I’ve deleted my own posts as one directly hurt site integrity. I apologize for this and I will refrain from posting the problematic things I’ve posted in the future.
No, I still think it’s ridiculous and even dishonest to change the word lynch, but that’s a different issue.

wait, so now it's dishonest?

[BananaCucho]

I'm also curious on how a word change is dishonest

[DJarJar]

Ganelon, I have, countless times witnessed people on the mod picking racist names and then spamming to lynch the black people. Or the Jews. Really whatever the topic of the month is.


Personally, having been around mafia enough I am desensitized to the word. And even outside of mafia, I’d agree the degeneracy of the Internet spamming noose emojis everywhere makes it seem pretty innocuous.

But to the average person who has no clue wtf a “Pepe” is, the word is a pretty dark one. Voss highlighted this in his post about his narrator game.

As a developer, if I have the choice to hardcode “lynched” or “eliminated” and one of those two scares users away, it’s frankly a no-brainer.

Part of the basis of this thread is you seem to think MU only changed it because people forced them to? Can you provide a reference for that?

[Stealthbomber16]

I like how you literally call me SJW for feeling strongly about this and yet won’t call out the site changing a word that didn’t need changing.

This is hypocrisy 101.

It doesn’t matter, right? So why are you upset about it?

...is it the other kind of “doesn’t matter” where it does matter to you?

1. One site’s choice to change their vocabulary is their choice. It doesn’t effect you in literally any way. Why do you care? Why are you outraged?
2. Some people DO get offended by the historical context of the word “lynch”. Ok, go them. I don’t care, they do care... why should I be an asshole and continue to use the word if it makes them uncomfortable? Freedom of speech? Just because you CAN say something doesn’t mean you SHOULD say it.
3. I don’t know if you’ve really recognized this... but you are someone who comes across as offensive to some people. I’m very confused as to why you are so sensitive about the topic freedom of speech. You literally got banned from another community for calling someone retarded after they asked you not to call people retarded. Your response was “that’s retarded”. Why is it hard for you to honor that request? This is a genuine question coming from someone who is a “people pleaser”.

[DJarJar]

I’d also like to point out that both in their bot and ours, some developer literally wrote “lynched” into the code. It’s hardcoded to say that word. I’m not sure who originally created the votecounter script (oops?) but that person had to manually write the part “has been lynched.”


Considering the creator is potentially liable for any results of his code, IMO the most important rights here are the developer’s. IMO he can change his code to whatever he wants and nobody else can claim that he’s somehow infringing on their rights.

[oops_ur_dead]

"If someone is offended by a word that's their problem, not yours"

Actually no, it's your problem if you aren't trying to be an antisocial edgelord. When you form social relationships with people you learn that some people have different sensitivities to topics because of their upbringing or personal experiences. Some terms might be racially charged, some people might have uncomfortable memories associated with certain things. You can absolutely disregard other people's feelings, and pretend it's their problem. But the consequences of doing so are your problem.

Your entire argument is about criticizing and punishing someone exercising their free speech by using a word to be kinder to others, because you think that you shouldn't be kind to those people because of their politics, and you're worried about them "winning" or whatever the fuck. That's really all it boils down to. Personally, I'd rather just be good to people when it doesn't inconvenience me. I don't understand why it's so unpalatable to not be an asshole to other people.

[DJarJar]

"If someone is offended by a word that's their problem, not yours"

Actually no, it's your problem if you aren't trying to be an antisocial edgelord. When you form social relationships with people you learn that some people have different sensitivities to topics because of their upbringing or personal experiences. Some terms might be racially charged, some people might have uncomfortable memories associated with certain things. You can absolutely disregard other people's feelings, and pretend it's their problem. But the consequences of doing so are your problem.

Your entire argument is about criticizing and punishing someone exercising their free speech by using a word to be kinder to others, because you think that you shouldn't be kind to those people because of their politics, and you're worried about them "winning" or whatever the fuck. That's really all it boils down to. Personally, I'd rather just be good to people when it doesn't inconvenience me. I don't understand why it's so unpalatable to not be an asshole to other people.

Because slippery slope that hasn’t happened

[Stealthbomber16]

honestly using the term eliminate better helps describe the process to confused newcomers anyway

[Voss]

Personally, having been around mafia enough I am desensitized to the word.

just want to highlight this phrase here. we've all been playing this game for a long time. we're the weird ones that are desensitized. it's important to recognize the social bubble we may live in.

[deathworlds]

just want to highlight this phrase here. we've all been playing this game for a long time. we're the weird ones that are desensitized. it's important to recognize the social bubble we may live in.

^^
I imagine if I haven't been in the mafia community since middle school I would be appalled by the use of the word lynched upon first coming into contact with it in this context

[Ganelon]

This is hypocrisy 101.

It doesn’t matter, right? So why are you upset about it?

...is it the other kind of “doesn’t matter” where it does matter to you?

1. One site’s choice to change their vocabulary is their choice. It doesn’t effect you in literally any way. Why do you care? Why are you outraged?
2. Some people DO get offended by the historical context of the word “lynch”. Ok, go them. I don’t care, they do care... why should I be an asshole and continue to use the word if it makes them uncomfortable? Freedom of speech? Just because you CAN say something doesn’t mean you SHOULD say it.
3. I don’t know if you’ve really recognized this... but you are someone who comes across as offensive to some people. I’m very confused as to why you are so sensitive about the topic freedom of speech. You literally got banned from another community for calling someone retarded after they asked you not to call people retarded. Your response was “that’s retarded”. Why is it hard for you to honor that request? This is a genuine question coming from someone who is a “people pleaser”.
1. It doesn’t affect me directly - don’t you see? Everyone’s is missing the point here. It’s jot the word change that pisses me off. I wouldn’t give a shit if they started calling it execution, outvoting, election it anything else. My problem is the underlying social attitude that led to it being even considered. And, I WILL continue to use that word. It’s impossible to predict what someone else will feel offended by; in not going to start policing my speech just because someone is displeased with a neutral word.

2. That’s their problem. If they do get offended, they should sort themselves out and stop being so sensitive. You’re not being an asshole by using a word. They’re being the asshole by requesting you use a different word that literally means the same thing and then claim you to be a racist who hates people for not complying with their request.

3. I’ve already said I’m kind of a cunt and I don’t really care all that much about my public image. I care about being right, and acting that way. Much more important than being nice. If you’re right, people cannot assail you unjustly. Never tell lies, and I don’t. As for me getting banned... that site banned blink for toxicity but didn’t ban MANY other players who either egged blink on or were toxic towards him. I would get myself banned from that website again, I don’t play with toxic smug weenies. They’re he worst kind to play with. And the problem is that in my view, these people are the eaxact same people as the ones pushing to change the word lynch to execute. Or the word retarded. I tar them with the same brush.

unrelated, but if anyone else is a programmer here/studying programming, I borrowed the term ‘smug weenie’ from ‘smug lisp weenie’. I tar the people stealth is referring to and their ilk with the same brush as the smug lisp weenies.

[BananaCucho]

Jesus that rant was fat

[Ganelon]

For the record, I actually don’t know where you are coming from suggesting that changing the word lynch to execute would help with inclusivity. Many long-standing players with views similar to my own were probably displeased with MU’s move. I would imagine some of them even left. And it’s jot the only thing MU has done. They’re also changing the logo (because it has a noose in it), and there’s been discussion on banning the word AIDS (as a curse word). There’s many things happening on that website, the lynch debacle is simply the most glamorous one.

[Ganelon]

Apoc, an FM staff member there was quite displeased with this move, too.

[BananaCucho]

Many long-standing players with views similar to my own were probably displeased with MU’s move. I would imagine some of them even left.

If you're going to quit a site over a word change... how was it that you put it?


if people are so thin skinned as not to be able to come to terms with that, maybe they’re better off not playing this game.

Get some thicker skin. That's a pretty pathetic excuse to quit a site over lmao

[DJarJar]

let’s say I had to pick between group A and B.

Group A: Lynch must stay! Else we lose our free speech!
Group B: lynch offends me! remove it!


The ideal situation is option C: a word that neither party can whine about. And that’s all MU did. So I still don’t understand your rage. I’m about 99% to doing the same on our site because I still can’t see a “why not?”, and it would take legit 5 seconds to change

[Voss]

1. It doesn’t affect me directly - don’t you see? Everyone’s is missing the point here. It’s jot the word change that pisses me off. I wouldn’t give a shit if they started calling it execution, outvoting, election it anything else. My problem is the underlying social attitude that led to it being even considered. And, I WILL continue to use that word. It’s impossible to predict what someone else will feel offended by; in not going to start policing my speech just because someone is displeased with a neutral word.


no one asked you to stop using the word lynch, and MU specifically said they will not police it.


2. That’s their problem. If they do get offended, they should sort themselves out and stop being so sensitive. You’re not being an asshole by using a word. They’re being the asshole by requesting you use a different word that literally means the same thing and then claim you to be a racist who hates people for not complying with their request.


no one's calling you racist or asshole here for using the word lynch. this is straw manning

[DJarJar]

Explain to me why I shouldn’t change it to eliminate

[DJarJar]

What are the negative repercussions of that change?

[BananaCucho]

Explain to me why I shouldn’t change it to eliminate

Cause "Eliminated" is lame!

Change to "Fucked" por favor

#TeamFucked

[Ganelon]

no one asked you to stop using the word lynch, and MU specifically said they will not police it.



no one's calling you racist or asshole here for using the word lynch. this is straw manning
Read stealths post. He was asking me if, hypothetically if someone asked me not to use it, what reason there would be for me not to comply

yes, right now nobody is - but in the event of someone asking me to use lynch and me refusing, I could very easily see someone calling me racist.

[Ganelon]

Explain to me why I shouldn’t change it to eliminate
Thats not how it works. You explain to me why it should be changed, not why it shouldn’t.

[DJarJar]

Thats not how it works. You explain to me why it should be changed, not why it shouldn’t.

I disagree, it’s not your code

[Ganelon]

What are the negative repercussions of that change?
Alienating long standing users.
A bizarre situation where the term lynch was frowned upon but allowed. If we start seeing lynch as racist, we’ll start seeing reports from people who felt offended by the use of the term (in an FM game), and then people getting infracted for no reason other than the fact that they used lynch.

[DJarJar]

Alienating long standing users.
A bizarre situation where the term lynch was frowned upon but allowed. If we start seeing lynch as racist, we’ll start seeing reports from people who felt offended by the use of the term (in an FM game), and then people getting infracted for no reason other than the fact that they used lynch.

Yea have you seen the fm reports section?....

[Ganelon]

I disagree, it’s not your code
Is this a police state? For the record it’s not your code either. And if you change the word like this without consulting be community there WILL be backlash. You don’t go around deciding for other people what’s best for them - as staff you are held to a higher standard, and aren’t a dictator.

[Voss]

For the record, I actually don’t know where you are coming from suggesting that changing the word lynch to execute would help with inclusivity.

how the fuck do you not know where i'm coming from. i gave you a real life example where changing the word helped with inclusivity.


Many long-standing players with views similar to my own were probably displeased with MU’s move. I would imagine some of them even left.

if they left over the word change, then good riddance, they need thicker skin, and i don't want to play with them. sounds familiar??


And it’s jot the only thing MU has done. They’re also changing the logo (because it has a noose in it),


you're right! if anything we should make a logo featuring a mutiliated body! /sarcasm

the noose goes literally hand in hand with the lynch argument. to me they hold the same moral weight, so it's not surprising that they're changing it.



and there’s been discussion on banning the word AIDS (as a curse word). There’s many things happening on that website, the lynch debacle is simply the most glamorous one.

come back to us when they change it and i'll have a fresh set of arguments for it. for the time being it's just a hypothetical and i imagine going to be harder to get changed. their post sounded like they didn't want to do active moderation, something that i can absolutely relate to.

[Ganelon]

That’s precisely why I deleted my posts on this thread. While I do think freedom of speech is important, I realize that as staff my words have a significant impact and I’d rather not use them for evil.

[Ganelon]

yes Voss, you’ll get some people on the train and alienating MANY. I’m not convinced you’ll love the people you’ll be taking onboard, however.

[DJarJar]

Where do you get your MANY statistic from.

Tbh the bot on here was changed like 12+ hours ago and nobody left

[BananaCucho]

Imagine getting so worked up about 1 word changing that you basically threaten to leave the site and take "many" others with you

[Voss]

Read stealths post. He was asking me if, hypothetically if someone asked me not to use it, what reason there would be for me not to comply

yes, right now nobody is - but in the event of someone asking me to use lynch and me refusing, I could very easily see someone calling me racist.

"Hey voss, please stop using the word lynch"

"Why?"

"Because it has racist conotations."

"Ah, we talked about this as a community a while back. It was really civil. Our end result was that we'd change the modbot word, but as a community allow people to keep using the word. If you want me to change it, let's have a community wide talk and get everyone on board, because it's been a while since we've visited this topic"

####

or you could respond with

"REEEE FUCK YOU CIVIL RIGHTS FREEDOM OF SPEECH"

[Ganelon]

The issue is that the people who feel strongly about such a change are myself, MM, Exeter, and presumably such people as Distorted, Ceko, blinkskater - and that’s just on our tiny website. Who are the people in favour if changing lynch? I have no idea who they are - but if they’re anything like the people who wanted to ban AIDS - which they probably are - they aren’t the sort of people you’d want on their website.

also, you’re describing a hypothetical situation where someone would be displeased with an invented problem that exists entirely in the mental plane (conflation of the word lynch with racism), whereas the other problem is much more significant and exists in the real world. I’ve just outlined to you what would happen if the word lynch were changed.

[Ganelon]

Where do you get your MANY statistic from.

Tbh the bot on here was changed like 12+ hours ago and nobody left
What the fuck?
okau this is hilarious

[Voss]

It also depends on how you phrase it to blink, ceko, and distorted:

"sc2mafia leftist anarchist black pleasing overlords are banning the word lynch! wanna get in one good last game on the site before degenerates destroy our pure sc2mafia culture?"

or

"The Godfather now says "eliminate" rather than lynch."

[BananaCucho]

The most ironic part of this

If Gan2S never posts this topic, the Godfather bot on sc2mafia is likely never changed

And he's threatening to quit the site over something he called attention to

Hmm

[Voss]

Which also brings up another question. How often do you read the script that modbot says? I bet that most people wouldn't be able to recite exactly what it says verbatim. Do you know why? Because they don't read it. They care about who was voted out and by whom.

[BananaCucho]

Which also brings up another question. How often do you read the script that modbot says? I bet that most people wouldn't be able to recite exactly what it says verbatim. Do you know why? Because they don't read it. They care about who was voted out and by whom.

Deathwords was fucked! Stand by for the host's end day post and review!

[vote count]

Now I'll go see how off I was

[Voss]

I will once again bring up the non hypothetical situation where I was able to be a bit more inclusive, and got a LOT of coworkers to continue to keep playing the game even though I used the word lynch once. There are a lot of fun people in that group and we're able to really attack each other in a friendly context.

So frankly this fearmongering over people being worked up over AIDs is just wrong, and them being distasteful people is "mental gymnastics" for me.

[Voss]

Deathwords was fucked! Stand by for the host's end day post and review!

[vote count]

Now I'll go see how off I was

wrong.

[Ganelon]

Again, you keep trying to put it to it just being a word. It’s jot just a word, and you know it, because otherwise there wouldn’t be this talk if changing it in the first place. The problem is the underlying social attitude, not using one word or another

[Voss]

don't post the real answer

[BananaCucho]

don't post the real answer

I won't =)

[BananaCucho]

Again, you keep trying to put it to it just being a word. It’s jot just a word, and you know it, because otherwise there wouldn’t be this talk if changing it in the first place. The problem is the underlying social attitude, not using one word or another

It's literally just a word. The spirit of mafia isn't changed due to the word.

[Voss]

Again, you keep trying to put it to it just being a word. It’s jot just a word, and you know it, because otherwise there wouldn’t be this talk if changing it in the first place. The problem is the underlying social attitude, not using one word or another


I will once again bring up the non hypothetical situation where I was able to be a bit more inclusive, and got a LOT of coworkers to continue to keep playing the game even though I used the word lynch once. There are a lot of fun people in that group and we're able to really attack each other in a friendly context.

see this real life scenario where it was just about a word.

[DJarJar]

Again, you keep trying to put it to it just being a word. It’s jot just a word, and you know it, because otherwise there wouldn’t be this talk if changing it in the first place. The problem is the underlying social attitude, not using one word or another

But that’s just a slippery slope conspiracy theory response dude. What if it IS just a word?

[Ganelon]

Imagine getting so worked up about 1 word changing that you basically threaten to leave the site and take "many" others with you
I did not threaten to leave the site. I did not even threaten to take others with me, I gave people who would be displeased with the change as an example and SUGGESTED that they were at risk of leaving or at the very least of being alienated.

[Ganelon]

But that’s just a slippery slope conspiracy theory response dude. What if it IS just a word?
If it’s just a word, why change it?

[DJarJar]

“Because otherwise there wouldn’t be this talk of changing it”

Isn’t it a little contradictory to suggest the change is to infringe on your free speech when you previously suggested it was just virtue signaling? Pick one

[Voss]

and ganelon, if it's not just about a word, why don't you start a new thread about what you fear might happen, but not cite this "lynch" example.

[Ganelon]

see this real life scenario where it was just about a word.
No it isnt
the problem is the social attitude. Fuck the word. The word is literally irrelevant

[BananaCucho]

I've been playing mafia for 7+ years

I feel no special connection or nostalgia to the word. Change happens all the time, its part of life, maybe you're just not used to that part?

[BananaCucho]

No it isnt
the problem is the social attitude. Fuck the word. The word is literally irrelevant

Ah the word is literally irrelevant. Thanks for proving our point?

[Voss]

I did not threaten to leave the site. I did not even threaten to take others with me, I gave people who would be displeased with the change as an example and SUGGESTED that they were at risk of leaving or at the very least of being alienated.

this is true, banana and I did put some words in your mouth here. sorry.

[Ganelon]

“Because otherwise there wouldn’t be this talk of changing it”

Isn’t it a little contradictory to suggest the change is to infringe on your free speech when you previously suggested it was just virtue signaling? Pick one
The two are not mutually exclusive. Also, you’re conflating reason with effect. The reason is virtue signaling, the effect is infringing on freedom of speech.

[Ganelon]

this is true, banana and I did put some words in your mouth here. sorry.
No worries. It often happens in heated debates like this.

[Voss]

No it isnt
the problem is the social attitude. Fuck the word. The word is literally irrelevant

yeah, i TOTALLY should have said that to my co workers. because that's more important than me trying to play more games with people that I like.

[Ganelon]

Ah the word is literally irrelevant. Thanks for proving our point?
It is irrelevant. Like i said the action of changing it is literally meaningless in and of itself. Its the attitude that led to it being an issue that is the problem

[BananaCucho]

I did not threaten to leave the site. I did not even threaten to take others with me, I gave people who would be displeased with the change as an example and SUGGESTED that they were at risk of leaving or at the very least of being alienated.

Right. Not actually threatening. Just heavily suggesting it.

[Renegade]

I'm confused, was the bot on this site for FM changed to say "eliminate"?

[BananaCucho]

It is irrelevant. Like i said the action of changing it is literally meaningless in and of itself. Its the attitude that led to it being an issue that is the problem

As far as I can see the attitude of it changing at sc2mafia is this:

A user rants about the change happening on other sites
Another user says he changed it in his game to be more inclusive
Some users here say "wow, thats a good point, we can be more inclusive by making that change here too"

That sound about right? I didnt see a social justice movement happen here, did you? This wouldn't have even been a topic had you not brought it up

[BananaCucho]

I'm confused, was the bot on this site for FM changed to say "eliminate"?

Guess we need to run a game to find out!

[Frinckles]

it was changed to say "REDACTED BY VOSS"

Then we have to remove the noose emote as well, right?

[Frinckles]

nevermind I guess you didn't say that. :P

[Frinckles]

Possibly the Rasta emote and [black guy with chicken wings] too.

[Ganelon]

Right, and on sc2mafia I think we’re atill sane enough not to consider something like this. But it’s wirrying. I was not even aware this had happened anywhere.

[BananaCucho]

Possibly the Rasta emote and [black guy with chicken wings] too.

Didn't the Tri Hard emote cause a lot of controversy on twitch too? Tho I think that was in response to people spamming it whenever anyone black was streaming iirc

[Frinckles]

Right, and on sc2mafia I think we’re atill sane enough not to consider something like this. But it’s wirrying. I was not even aware this had happened anywhere.

:chickenwings: Why wouldn't we? To make such change is to say quite a lot of yourself and of your community. If you go half-heartedly about it, you're being disingenuous. :chickenwings:

[rumox]

How about we do some reality cultivation. Make the modbot alter forum posts so that if Ganelon reads a post it says lynched, but if I read the same post it reads yeeted.

[Frinckles]

Didn't the Tri Hard emote cause a lot of controversy on twitch too? Tho I think that was in response to people spamming it whenever anyone black was streaming iirc

TriHardTriHardTriHard

[BananaCucho]

Right, and on sc2mafia I think we’re atill sane enough not to consider something like this. But it’s wirrying. I was not even aware this had happened anywhere.

Yeah so worrying that things in the world change instead of staying exactly the same always

[deathworlds]

2. That’s their problem. If they do get offended, they should sort themselves out and stop being so sensitive. You’re not being an asshole by using a word. They’re being the asshole by requesting you use a different word that literally means the same thing and then claim you to be a racist who hates people for not complying with their request.

3. I’ve already said I’m kind of a cunt and I don’t really care all that much about my public image. I care about being right, and acting that way. Much more important than being nice. If you’re right, people cannot assail you unjustly. Never tell lies, and I don’t. As for me getting banned... that site banned blink for toxicity but didn’t ban MANY other players who either egged blink on or were toxic towards him. I would get myself banned from that website again, I don’t play with toxic smug weenies. They’re he worst kind to play with. And the problem is that in my view, these people are the eaxact same people as the ones pushing to change the word lynch to execute. Or the word retarded. I tar them with the same brush.

unrelated, but if anyone else is a programmer here/studying programming, I borrowed the term ‘smug weenie’ from ‘smug lisp weenie’. I tar the people stealth is referring to and their ilk with the same brush as the smug lisp weenies.

This post bothered me so much I'm logging on at my workstation to complain about it.
If you are a member of the staff team, your public image very much does indeed matter. As a staff member, and especially a member of the FM team, you are a pillar of the community, whether you like that or not.
It's my personal belief that authority comes hand in hand with responsibility and accountability, if you have authority then you should be more of a role-model to everyone in your community, that's the price of authority. You shouldn't actively be "kind of a cunt" and you should actively be trying to correct that. Because I don't want this community to be represented by people that are kinda cunts, it doesn't exactly incentive people to join and stay.
This goes hand in hand with what I said. You are a member of the FM staff team, and you represent FM on this site as a whole because of that. Suggesting that any group of people should piss off is a hazardous statement to make. And quite frankly, if you were under my management, you would be reprimanded and potentially kicked off the team for that.
How do you know with absolute certainty you're right in any context? you are not all knowing, nor are you infallible, just like the rest of us. The whole point of discourse is to generate intelligent ideas and potentially change opinions regarding matters so that they're mutually beneficial to both parties involved.
Automatically assuming you're right in an argument takes away from the point of it, which isn't to "win" but to convince the other of a more beneficial stance to take.

[BananaCucho]

How about we do some reality cultivation. Make the modbot alter forum posts so that if Ganelon reads a post it says lynched, but if I read the same post it reads yeeted.

We could eliminate the bot altogether. I kinda like the twilight mechanic that mafiascum uses vs closing the thread for 24-108 hours

[deathworlds]

Then we have to remove the noose emote as well, right?

I felt bad adding the noose emote to the discord, I might remove it later

[Frinckles]

I felt bad adding the noose emote to the discord, I might remove it later

Why did you feel bad?

[Ganelon]

the group of people who want to change lynch are EXACTLY the same group of people who are toxic and manipulative in FM games. thats why I want them gone.
i dont know that I am right. however, being honest is extremely important. if you’re honest you cannot be slandered; you cannot be treated unjustly, and you can defend your views because you know that you believe is true (for you, at least)

[Voss]

i'd personally not want to do the inventory of going through our emotes and being the judge of what is racial and what is not.

also, those emotes are different because they're not auto generated, and i don't think they're used very much.

i actually don't know how to use the emotes, but you can just call me a boomer.

[Frinckles]

I don't see this topic moving anywhere constructive or being inline with this subforum's rules by the way.

This is more of a staff topic in regards to what changes are made.

[deathworlds]

Why did you feel bad?

Possibility because I was actively making the decision to add imagery that could be linked to a dark and racist time in america's past and introducing that to a group of people so they could share it with other servers, where it might be used in a non-mafia context.

[Ganelon]

Other sites are very lenient on toxicity (compared to them, we really aren’t; were only lenient on personal insults, which are related but separate). You know what? Those sites that are very inclusive and shit and make an effort for inclusivity (typically by banning words such as retarded etc), are also typically the ones that DONT police toxicity.

[Frinckles]

i'd personally not want to do the inventory of going through our emotes and being the judge of what is racial and what is not.

also, those emotes are different because they're not auto generated, and i don't think they're used very much.

i actually don't know how to use the emotes, but you can just call me a boomer.

Well that'd be the logical conclusion right? And on my end I will remove the following eliminations: Noose, Trial-By-Fire, Gas Chamber, Firing Squad and Mothership.

Edit: Changed L******* to eliminations.

[DJarJar]

This post bothered me so much I'm logging on at my workstation to complain about it.
If you are a member of the staff team, your public image very much does indeed matter. As a staff member, and especially a member of the FM team, you are a pillar of the community, whether you like that or not.
It's my personal belief that authority comes hand in hand with responsibility and accountability, if you have authority then you should be more of a role-model to everyone in your community, that's the price of authority. You shouldn't actively be "kind of a cunt" and you should actively be trying to correct that. Because I don't want this community to be represented by people that are kinda cunts, it doesn't exactly incentive people to join and stay.
This goes hand in hand with what I said. You are a member of the FM staff team, and you represent FM on this site as a whole because of that. Suggesting that any group of people should piss off is a hazardous statement to make. And quite frankly, if you were under my management, you would be reprimanded and potentially kicked off the team for that.
How do you know with absolute certainty you're right in any context? you are not all knowing, nor are you infallible, just like the rest of us. The whole point of discourse is to generate intelligent ideas and potentially change opinions regarding matters so that they're mutually beneficial to both parties involved.
Automatically assuming you're right in an argument takes away from the point of it, which isn't to "win" but to convince the other of a more beneficial stance to take.

Stop using colors and use my QUOTE BREAK BUTTON

[deathworlds]

Stop using colors and




use my QUOTE BREAK BUTTON

I honestly didn't know it was a thing until now

[Sylvanas]

Explain to me why I shouldn’t change it to eliminate
Calm down with the non-inclusive language Adolf Hitler.


Cause "Eliminated" is lame!

Change to "Fucked" por favor

#TeamFucked
Oh dear, casual allusions to sexual violence, rape culture!

[deathworlds]

Possibility because I was actively making the decision to add imagery that could be linked to a dark and racist time in america's past and introducing that to a group of people so they could share it with other servers, where it might be used in a non-mafia context.

aka it could be seen and used as a racist symbol

[rumox]

Words are hard :(

[Voss]

well frinckles, feel free to gather up a list of flavor/emojis you want changed, and the community can talk about what they want removed.

i'm very vested in this particular issue because i have personal experience with this very word and the inclusivity gains/costs it has.

[Frinckles]

aka it could be seen and used as a racist symbol

But you had already added it, do you see yourself as insensitive and now more sensitive after its removal?

[Stealthbomber16]

What are the negative repercussions of that change?

I'm still in the GanelOwned party.

[Ganelon]

you’re right I should try to be less offensive, deathworlds. my mistake. but it bothers me when people do things I find completely despicable.

also, speaking over the being a cunt comment, I am offensive, yes, but you know what? being offensive is fine as long as you don’t take it to personal levels (which I haven’t) and as long as you’re upfront about it. people want a staff member who is reliable, not one who is nice.

[deathworlds]

But you had already added it, do you see yourself as insensitive and now more sensitive after its removal?

No?

I see myself as a person that might have made a mistake, simple as that, I was fully aware of the fact that I was adding it yet I did it anyways.

[BananaCucho]

Stop using colors and use my QUOTE BREAK BUTTON

I couldn't find that button when I wanted to use it the other day


the group of people who want to change lynch are EXACTLY the same group of people who are toxic and manipulative in FM games. thats why I want them gone.
i dont know that I am right. however, being honest is extremely important. if you’re honest you cannot be slandered; you cannot be treated unjustly, and you can defend your views because you know that you believe is true (for you, at least)

So you reveal your agenda. Drive away people off the site that think differently than you.

[Renegade]

the group of people who want to change lynch are EXACTLY the same group of people who are toxic and manipulative in FM games. thats why I want them gone.
i dont know that I am right. however, being honest is extremely important. if you’re honest you cannot be slandered; you cannot be treated unjustly, and you can defend your views because you know that you believe is true (for you, at least)

Is this a joke? Lmao

[Frinckles]

well frinckles, feel free to gather up a list of flavor/emojis you want changed, and the community can talk about what they want removed.

i'm very vested in this particular issue because i have personal experience with this very word and the inclusivity gains/costs it has.

I have no intention of removing anything or really suggesting to. People with the map are free to right click and disable said triggers.

My point is where it stops and why people are suddenly now having revelations to change things; And most importantly what changes say about ourselves and our intentions.

[BananaCucho]

Calm down with the non-inclusive language Adolf Hitler.


Oh dear, casual allusions to sexual violence, rape culture!

Damnit. Good point :(

#TeamNotFucked

[Ganelon]

Not ONCE on this entire thread did I personally attack someone - and yet I’m the one being called offensive. I’ve been attacked multiple times however and you don’t see me yelling about it. I DO mind, make no mistake, but not enough to mention it. I’m only mentioning it now because I’m getting called out for saying I’m kind of a cunt, whereas others who’ve personally belittled me and insulted me aren’t. This is what’s known as a double standard.

[deathworlds]

you’re right I should try to be less offensive, deathworlds. my mistake. but it bothers me when people do things I find completely despicable.

also, speaking over the being a cunt comment, I am offensive, yes, but you know what? being offensive is fine as long as you don’t take it to personal levels (which I haven’t) and as long as you’re upfront about it. people want a staff member who is reliable, not one who is nice.

reliability is not exclusive of politeness in any way, in fact, I might argue that being reliable is being nice to the parties you intend to cooperate or do things with.

[Stealthbomber16]

you’re right I should try to be less offensive, deathworlds. my mistake. but it bothers me when people do things I find completely despicable.

also, speaking over the being a cunt comment, I am offensive, yes, but you know what? being offensive is fine as long as you don’t take it to personal levels (which I haven’t) and as long as you’re upfront about it. people want a staff member who is reliable, not one who is nice.

I don't understand why you are so invested in the "social attitude" here. Why does it bother you that people are bothered by a word? You are literally bothered by people being bothered. That's actually worse than being bothered by the word.

[BananaCucho]

you’re right I should try to be less offensive, deathworlds. my mistake. but it bothers me when people do things I find completely despicable.

also, speaking over the being a cunt comment, I am offensive, yes, but you know what? being offensive is fine as long as you don’t take it to personal levels (which I haven’t) and as long as you’re upfront about it. people want a staff member who is reliable, not one who is nice.

Reliable. Hmm.

[Ganelon]

reliability is not exclusive of politeness in any way, in fact, I might argue that being reliable is being nice to the parties you intend to cooperate or do things with.
Don’t conflate my aggression with me being impolite. I’ve been polite (to the people on this thread).

[Stealthbomber16]

I’m only mentioning it now because I’m getting called out for saying I’m kind of a cunt

You literally said you were a cunt.


3. I’ve already said I’m kind of a cunt and I don’t really care all that much about my public image.

Pick one please

[Ganelon]

I don't understand why you are so invested in the "social attitude" here. Why does it bother you that people are bothered by a word? You are literally bothered by people being bothered. That's actually worse than being bothered by the word.
It bothers me because I live in a society and the changes in a society directly affect me.

[DJarJar]

LMAOOOO imagine being so triggered by ‘lynch’ that you have to replace it with eliminate... because of racial implications
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU (https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/26243-Official-ruling-regarding-the-usage-of-Lynch-on-MU/page2)

Remember when you started the thread quite literally insulting anybody that disagreed with you?

[Ganelon]

You literally said you were a cunt.



Pick one please
I am a cunt and getting called out for i whereas people attacking me are being ignored. I’m being skittles (and in some cases harassed) and I don’t see people getting called out for it.

[deathworlds]

Not ONCE on this entire thread did I personally attack someone - and yet I’m the one being called offensive. I’ve been attacked multiple times however and you don’t see me yelling about it. I DO mind, make no mistake, but not enough to mention it. I’m only mentioning it now because I’m getting called out for saying I’m kind of a cunt, whereas others who’ve personally belittled me and insulted me aren’t. This is what’s known as a double standard.

I called you out not because you were a cunt, but because you said you were a cunt and proud of it. Combine that with the fact that you're staff in a position I previously held makes me hold you to a higher standard than others, not a double standard.

[Frinckles]

Remember when you started the thread quite literally insulting anybody that disagreed with you?

To be fair, every single one of the last 7 political or racial debate topics have started with an insult or banter directed at someone. Check em out.

[BananaCucho]

It bothers me because I live in a society and the changes in a society directly affect me.

"Changes in society affect me"

Yeah a change on a niche site that less than 100 people frequent is a pretty big societal shift, eesh

[Ganelon]

Remember when you started the thread quite literally insulting anybody that disagreed with you?
True, my bad, that was out of line. I apologize for that. But that’s like the only time I did that lol. You can’t say I personally attacked anyone on this thread (I don’t like doing it).

[Stealthbomber16]

Why cant we have this kind of activity in FM

[deathworlds]

Don’t conflate my aggression with me being impolite. I’ve been polite (to the people on this thread).

I was referring to this line

people want a staff member who is reliable, not one who is nice.

not to your aggressiveness

[DJarJar]

To be fair, every single one of the last 7 political or racial debate topics have started with an insult or banter directed at someone. Check em out.

What does that have to do with anything? I’m replying to him saying he’s being unjustly attacked by pointing out that his original post was attacking anybody with an opposing view

[Ganelon]

I called you out not because you were a cunt, but because you said you were a cunt and proud of it. Combine that with the fact that you're staff in a position I previously held makes me hold you to a higher standard than others, not a double standard.
I mean, I can’t really argue with this I suppose. You are definitely right, but I do still feel that I am being personally attacked (not by you ofc, dw im suggesting that), and these people aren’t getting called out for their behavior.

[Voss]

I have no intention of removing anything or really suggesting to. People with the map are free to right click and disable said triggers.

My point is where it stops and why people are suddenly now having revelations to change things; And most importantly what changes say about ourselves and our intentions.

we're having a discussion about it, here in this thread. that's what's causing this revelation to change things. and for me personally, having the chance to reflect on these things in this thread has made me think about the issue. if mag hadn't made this post, i wouldn't have had that chance to reflect on it.

i don't know that i'd be so keen to keep going down this path, only because this is exhaustive. like if we were really going through the graphics of the arcade mafia, mothership seems comical, but gassing seems particularly gruesome. even blizzard stepped in when "jew" was a word that triggered the gas execution.

[Stealthbomber16]

It bothers me because I live in a society and the changes in a society directly affect me.

HE SAID THE LINE BOYS

HE SAID THE LINE

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27325&d=1595905085

27325

[BananaCucho]

Why cant we have this kind of activity in FM

Hello? Am I a joke to you? :p

[BananaCucho]

To be fair, every single one of the last 7 political or racial debate topics have started with an insult or banter directed at someone. Check em out.

1 user started 90% of those posts lol