MafiaUniverse replaced the word ‘lynch’ with eliminate

[BananaCucho]

I mean, I can’t really argue with this I suppose. You are definitely right, but I do still feel that I am being personally attacked (not by you ofc, dw im suggesting that), and these people aren’t getting called out for their behavior.

You can stop saying things like "these people" and start saying "banana" lol

[Ganelon]

"Changes in society affect me"

Yeah a change on a niche site that less than 100 people frequent is a pretty big societal shift, eesh
THIS is a society.

[Voss]

Not ONCE on this entire thread did I personally attack someone - and yet I’m the one being called offensive. I’ve been attacked multiple times however and you don’t see me yelling about it. I DO mind, make no mistake, but not enough to mention it. I’m only mentioning it now because I’m getting called out for saying I’m kind of a cunt, whereas others who’ve personally belittled me and insulted me aren’t. This is what’s known as a double standard.

can you report these messages? there's a ton of staff that's supposed to be addressing these things. from my perspective, i haven't seen direct attacks, but a lot of toe the line. I haven't been reporting them, because I'm fallible.

Let's all check ourselves and make sure we're not attacking each other. Ideas are okay, but not the people behind it.

[Frinckles]

What does that have to do with anything? I’m replying to him saying he’s being unjustly attacked by pointing out that his original post was attacking anybody with an opposing view

It has to do with the fact that we can't uphold the simple rule to not shit talk while we have a conversation. This goes for all cases. I'm not surprised this subforum was deleted.

[Ganelon]

can you report these messages? there's a ton of staff that's supposed to be addressing these things. from my perspective, i haven't seen direct attacks, but a lot of toe the line. I haven't been reporting them, because I'm fallible.

Let's all check ourselves and make sure we're not attacking each other. Ideas are okay, but not the people behind it.
sure. Wildo

[rumox]

even blizzard stepped in when "jew" was a word that triggered the gas execution.

Yeah it's the intention behind the action where people should draw their opinions, not so much the act itself. This is actually a core philosophy of how we moderate the arcade map :)

[Ganelon]

It has to do with the fact that we can't uphold the simple rule to not shit talk while we have a conversation. This goes for all cases. I'm not surprised this subforum was deleted.
Honestly, I know this is hypocritical coming from me but it would be a REALLY good idea to ban political discussion altogether. The only thing is, this isn’t strictly a political discussion. It’s ahaped by politics but that’s not what it is.

[Frinckles]

we're having a discussion about it, here in this thread. that's what's causing this revelation to change things. and for me personally, having the chance to reflect on these things in this thread has made me think about the issue. if mag hadn't made this post, i wouldn't have had that chance to reflect on it.

i don't know that i'd be so keen to keep going down this path, only because this is exhaustive. like if we were really going through the graphics of the arcade mafia, mothership seems comical, but gassing seems particularly gruesome. even blizzard stepped in when "jew" was a word that triggered the gas execution.

I feel where you're coming from and I agree, it is exhaustive and I don't know where it ends.

I also don't know why Elmer Fudd has a scythe.

[Stealthbomber16]

THIS is a society.

This society has changed many times before and it will continue to change after you are gone.

If that change includes someone being (IMO acceptably) uncomfortable with the prospect of lynching, be it due to historical reasons, political reasons, or reasons having to do with the fact that they had an uncomfortable run-in WITH A LYNCHING, then I will welcome it with open arms. It's a word. That isn't much of a change. You should be expected to not be an asshole and follow the precedent that is set here.

This isn't a PragerU-esque "The left wants to take away your penis!" scenario. This is revolving around an outdated term originating from a 10 year old mod of a game. Your freedoms aren't even like, brought into question here.

[deathworlds]

Honestly, I know this is hypocritical coming from me but it would be a REALLY good idea to ban political discussion altogether. The only thing is, this isn’t strictly a political discussion. It’s ahaped by politics but that’s not what it is.

That's because people like to turn everything into a political discussion when in reality it really shouldn't be.

Politics is "who gets what, when, and how." in reference to who gets what resources, when they're distributed and how they're distributed.
At least that's what I was taught in my political science classes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Stealthbomber16]

I find it incredibly awkward that the word "Lynching" is being defended so vehemently as though it has no ties to the killings of hundreds of African-Americans. The context that we use it for here is the niche context. It is definitely not standard.

I don't care whether it's kept here or not. I'm amazed how people care whether it's kept on a completely different website or not. And I guess I struggle with seeing how other people DO care because it completely doesn't make sense to me because it's a change that will not effect my daily life in real life, and will not effect my browsing here in any way shape or form.

I also don't think that you can't call yourself racist if you LEAVE A SITE because they changed the word "lynch" to "eliminate".

[rumox]

Your freedoms aren't even like, brought into question here.

I demand to be free to read words how I want to read them.

We just need to hurry up and plug into the matrix so we can alter our realities to reflect what we want them to be. Our safe spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.

[Ganelon]

You know how many blacks were killed via lynching? Wanna take a guess? Because the number isn’t that high. And it’s not the first time in history lynchings have happened, and in the context of Mafia it literally has nothing to do with that. I don’t even understand where you’re coming from suggesting I may be racist for ‘leaving the site’ if the word gets changed. I’m not American, I don’t even associate the term with racial lynchings like some Americans do. That part is virtually unknown outside of the US.

[Ganelon]

This society has changed many times before and it will continue to change after you are gone.

If that change includes someone being (IMO acceptably) uncomfortable with the prospect of lynching, be it due to historical reasons, political reasons, or reasons having to do with the fact that they had an uncomfortable run-in WITH A LYNCHING, then I will welcome it with open arms. It's a word. That isn't much of a change. You should be expected to not be an asshole and follow the precedent that is set here.

This isn't a PragerU-esque "The left wants to take away your penis!" scenario. This is revolving around an outdated term originating from a 10 year old mod of a game. Your freedoms aren't even like, brought into question here.
I don’t mind change dude. I mind shit change, and this would be a shit change that would drive users away and invite the exact people you don’t want to be on the forums.

[Ganelon]

That's because people like to turn everything into a political discussion when in reality it really shouldn't be.

Politics is "who gets what, when, and how." in reference to who gets what resources, when they're distributed and how they're distributed.
At least that's what I was taught in my political science classes ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
True, but in this scenario the discussion is definitely rooted in politics, and I don’t see how it couldn’t be.

[Ganelon]

It’s nice to know that’s how you feel about me, stealth, though. Kind of disappointed in you.

[deathworlds]

I don’t mind change dude. I mind shit change, and this would be a shit change that would drive users away and invite the exact people you don’t want to be on the forums.

Is it really a shit change?
Is it really a change that matters at all? changing the text for 1 bot from 1 word to another one?
Would it drive literally anyone away?

[Voss]

I've been advised to lock this thread. Putting this on pause for 12 or so hours to let people cool down.

you WILL be infracted if you post in this thread after this is closed.

[Voss]

Reopening this thread. Treat this like the opposite of circle jerk. Please and thank you!

[oops_ur_dead]

I don’t mind change dude. I mind shit change, and this would be a shit change that would drive users away and invite the exact people you don’t want to be on the forums.

I changed it (rather, pushed for the change because I couldn't be fucked to do it myself) to yeet because I think it'd be hilarious if the bot said "yeeted" instead of "lynched". I'm also a pretty big troll and I thought it would be funny to see people get their panties in a twist over it. Hell I think it'd be kind of entertaining if as a community we added some fun flair to shit like that, like we've already been doing. Maybe having holiday themes on the bot text and whatnot.

Literally nobody pushed me to do this, nor did I do it to really include anyone. I don't directly know of anyone who wanted this change other than myself (at least, before I proposed it) and I don't particularly care about whoever wants to come to the forum now because of this. I just think yeet is a funny word.

Since I coded the entire bot myself, and wrote all the phrases myself, I'm exercising my own creative liberty in controlling what it does. Just like how when I was designing the logo of this site, I didn't add a noose and instead added a fedora because that's the artistic choice I felt like making. Or how sometimes I used to add silly flairs like snowflakes or bunnies falling from the top of the site.

You can absolutely whine, threaten to leave, or protest this change. For all it's worth, it might work.

But if you do that, you'll have to live with knowing that you repressed my own free speech and my right to make the statements I want to make with the art and tech I produce, solely to pander to your idea of politics. Because you were upset by a word change I made for fun. Would you be able to, in good faith, continue your free speech crusade, knowing that leftists have never successfully pushed me to change my speech or the way I express myself, but you have?

[oops_ur_dead]

Voss bro you forgot to open the thread

[BananaCucho]

@Stealthbomber16 (https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=15807)

I wanted to say that I am not disappointed in you, but rather proud of you for speaking your mind.

I really really really like this new stealth (this isn't the first time he's done it, and even though I disagreed with him last time I think it's better that people feel free to speak up)

[BananaCucho]

Honestly, I know this is hypocritical coming from me but it would be a REALLY good idea to ban political discussion altogether. The only thing is, this isn’t strictly a political discussion. It’s ahaped by politics but that’s not what it is.

So, censorship?

[Voss]

So, censorship?

i wouldn't call it censorship, but i'm fairly sure that there's no plan to implement this ban.

[BananaCucho]

i wouldn't call it censorship, but i'm fairly sure that there's no plan to implement this ban.

If it were to be implemented as suggested though, what would you call that? Restricting speech?

[Voss]

If it were to be implemented as suggested though, what would you call that? Restricting speech?

i think this is veering off topic and would like to say that although the admins would like to uphold free speech on the forums, they don't have to and would be well within their rights to ban political speech. One reason that they don't is that it's not the kind of community they want to have here.

[BananaCucho]

i think this is veering off topic and would like to say that although the admins would like to uphold free speech on the forums, they don't have to and would be well within their rights to ban political speech. One reason that they don't is that it's not the kind of community they want to have here.

I don't think it's off topic at all. If the admins have the right to choose whether or not to ban political speech, it's obvious that they also have the right to choose what word is used for eliminations.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

i wouldn't call it censorship, but i'm fairly sure that there's no plan to implement this ban.

I confirm that there are no plans on my side to get people infracted for using the word "lynch". Note that even sites that officially adopted another term did not do that.

[BananaCucho]

I confirm that there are no plans on my side to get people infracted for using the word "lynch". Note that even sites that officially adopted another term did not do that.

I don't think this was ever in question lol

Voss was referring to a potential ban on politics as suggested by another user. Unless I completely misread that lol

[oops_ur_dead]

Dude what if whoever won an FM got to pick the word the bot uses for the next one lmao.

[Stealthbomber16]

Dude what if whoever won an FM got to pick the word the bot uses for the next one lmao.

YES

MVP from the winning faction picks the next word

[Unknown1234]

Dude what if whoever won an FM got to pick the word the bot uses for the next one lmao.

You have to play now since it’s your great idea.

[Stealthbomber16]

It’s nice to know that’s how you feel about me, stealth, though. Kind of disappointed in you.

If you are disappointed in me for having my own political views, that’s fine. I can live with that. I used to look up to you as a player and as a person but the hissy fit you’ve thrown here has made me really sad. I don’t think there is any reason to be upset over a word change. I don’t think it reflects a societal change. I don’t think it really reflects a site change. Oops is doing it to be funny. I think that beyond being funny it could also be a (barely) constructive change.

I don’t know why you are upset over this change. How does the bot not saying lynch damage your freedom of speech? It’s not like the word is banned or anything? Does anybody actually ever READ the bot anymore? I just skim through the vote and see who got lynched.

I don’t see why you are so adamant that other people are assholes because your vocabulary makes them uncomfortable. Believe it or not, repeatedly using a term that you KNOW makes people uncomfortable makes you an asshole. You can choose to deal with that or you can choose to be mad about it. But if you get mad about it you won’t change the fact that you are being an asshole. I don’t mean this in a rude way. I mean this in a constructive way. If the fact that a large portion of our community has come together to tell you that right now you are being an asshole doesn’t phase you or make you think “hey maybe I’m being a bit of an asshole” then I’m not sure what will.

I’m going to end this completely worthless rant by saying that right now you are being a stereotype. You are a stereotypical image of a right-winger to a leftist. I’m more of a leftist and it makes me sad because I know that you are a much deeper person than that. But getting upset that a bot that you didnt develop is changing a single word that has historical subtext in a community that you are not in just reeks of being spoiled. You can dislike me for that opinion, that’s fine. Why are you so afraid of change? What do you think would come after this? We have to replace the mafia with babies because the mafia killed a bunch of people? We call it sc2baby? Nah.

[Stealthbomber16]

Please let me know if there was a more constructive way to word that post. I do not mean to insult you.

[Voss]

I think there is a fear that this could snowball into something more. But I don't think it will because the staff doesn't really want to become the moral authority on everything, primarily because it's time consuming and that's not exactly why we're here.

The reason why we're talking about this one word was because it was brought up, and now a ton of discussion has been generated, so it's well documented now on how the community feels. I don't think the community wants to go through this process over and over again. But that's just my take here.

[Stealthbomber16]

I think there is a fear that this could snowball into something more. But I don't think it will because the staff doesn't really want to become the moral authority on everything, primarily because it's time consuming and that's not exactly why we're here.

The reason why we're talking about this one word was because it was brought up, and now a ton of discussion has been generated, so it's well documented now on how the community feels. I don't think the community wants to go through this process over and over again. But that's just my take here.

I mean... I don't see what other words would change? I'm pretty indifferent on the term lynch in general.

[BananaCucho]

I propose that we move forward with sc2baby rebranding

On a serious note, I would like an actual sc2 theme rebrand tbh. We did this with H Y D R A accounts, making them Archon accounts instead. Why not fully embrace the theme?

[Voss]

I propose that we move forward with sc2baby rebranding

On a serious note, I would like an actual sc2 theme rebrand tbh. We did this with H Y D R A accounts, making them Archon accounts instead. Why not fully embrace the theme?

can someone give me the tldr on why there's a difference, and why it was changed?

[BananaCucho]

can someone give me the tldr on why there's a difference, and why it was changed?

Basically "archon" has more or a starcraft feel than *****

I think Crypt is the one who banned ***** lol

[Sylvanas]

even blizzard stepped in when "jew" was a word that triggered the gas execution.
Remember when WC3 was perfectly fine and Blizzard stepped in to give us WaRcRaFt ThReE rEfOrGeD? Why does it matter what that shit company steps in to do when it hasn't done anything good in at least 10 years?


We have to replace the mafia with babies because the mafia killed a bunch of people? We call it sc2baby? Nah.
It makes me uncomfortable though.

[Voss]

Basically "archon" has more or a starcraft feel than *****

I think Crypt is the one who banned ***** lol

really?

*****

[BananaCucho]

can someone give me the tldr on why there's a difference, and why it was changed?

Here's some links containing a lot of arguing about the name actually

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/35478-S-FM-Charmanders-Revenge-Brotherhood-Signups?highlight=archon

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/35561-Rules-For-Archons-(AKA-Hydras)?highlight=archon

And actually a really funny quote that is 100% relevant to this thread:


Whoever voted against it is lame

AHHRGRHRHRHR I HATE CHANGE WE CAN'T BE DIFFERENT. I DONT CARE IF IT'S JUST A NAME CHANGE THAT REPRESENTS OUR COMMUNITY, I DON'T LIKE NEW THINGS GARBLE
^direct unironic quote from staff chat

[Voss]

really?

*****

okay what the fuck.

[BananaCucho]

Some more site history

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/36876-Hello-I-am-a-*****-*****-*****-*****-*****-*****-*****-*****?highlight=archon

https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/37932-Regarding-quot-Archon-quot-and-quot-*****-quot?highlight=archon

[secondpassing]

If you are disappointed in me for having my own political views, that’s fine. I can live with that. I used to look up to you as a player and as a person but the hissy fit you’ve thrown here has made me really sad. I don’t think there is any reason to be upset over a word change. I don’t think it reflects a societal change. I don’t think it really reflects a site change. Oops is doing it to be funny. I think that beyond being funny it could also be a (barely) constructive change.

I don’t know why you are upset over this change. How does the bot not saying lynch damage your freedom of speech? It’s not like the word is banned or anything? Does anybody actually ever READ the bot anymore? I just skim through the vote and see who got lynched.

I don’t see why you are so adamant that other people are assholes because your vocabulary makes them uncomfortable. Believe it or not, repeatedly using a term that you KNOW makes people uncomfortable makes you an asshole. You can choose to deal with that or you can choose to be mad about it. But if you get mad about it you won’t change the fact that you are being an asshole. I don’t mean this in a rude way. I mean this in a constructive way. If the fact that a large portion of our community has come together to tell you that right now you are being an asshole doesn’t phase you or make you think “hey maybe I’m being a bit of an asshole” then I’m not sure what will.

I’m going to end this completely worthless rant by saying that right now you are being a stereotype. You are a stereotypical image of a right-winger to a leftist. I’m more of a leftist and it makes me sad because I know that you are a much deeper person than that. But getting upset that a bot that you didnt develop is changing a single word that has historical subtext in a community that you are not in just reeks of being spoiled. You can dislike me for that opinion, that’s fine. Why are you so afraid of change? What do you think would come after this? We have to replace the mafia with babies because the mafia killed a bunch of people? We call it sc2baby? Nah.

Yes, you could have worded this post much better. You could take out all the insults entirely, which include: "asshole, stereotype, spoiled", after which you can include more neutral term, but the first thing that would have helped bridge discussion would have been to adopt a hopeful attitude towards Ganelon. Instead of getting mad at him, it does help to take a breath and then contain all the words and tones and feelings that someone else would take negatively overmuch. Perhaps you would call this censuring yourself; however, humans, including you and I do it all the time. Paragaphs with charged wording does not inspire change.

I appreciate your care for this site, but I think you could have discussed with more mild language.

[secondpassing]

I'm glad that oops_ur_dead decided to take things into his own hands, so now I can comfortably say I had no say in such a matter.

[BananaCucho]

Yes, you could have worded this post much better. You could take out all the insults entirely, which include: "asshole, stereotype, spoiled", after which you can include more neutral term, but the first thing that would have helped bridge discussion would have been to adopt a hopeful attitude towards Ganelon. Instead of getting mad at him, it does help to take a breath and then contain all the words and tones and feelings that someone else would take negatively overmuch. Perhaps you would call this censuring yourself; however, humans, including you and I do it all the time. Paragaphs with charged wording does not inspire change.

I appreciate your care for this site, but I think you could have discussed with more mild language.

To be fair, Stealth's ranting has been in response to excessive ranting.

[Stealthbomber16]

Yes, you could have worded this post much better. You could take out all the insults entirely, which include: "asshole, stereotype, spoiled", after which you can include more neutral term, but the first thing that would have helped bridge discussion would have been to adopt a hopeful attitude towards Ganelon. Instead of getting mad at him, it does help to take a breath and then contain all the words and tones and feelings that someone else would take negatively overmuch. Perhaps you would call this censuring yourself; however, humans, including you and I do it all the time. Paragaphs with charged wording does not inspire change.

I appreciate your care for this site, but I think you could have discussed with more mild language.

This is fair. My bad.

[oops_ur_dead]

I'm glad that oops_ur_dead decided to take things into his own hands, so now I can comfortably say I had no say in such a matter.

I'm choosing to express the things I've created in the way I want to, insofar as it doesn't harm others experience. Isn't trying to have authority over others' expression the type of free speech suppression everyone is complaining about?

[rumox]

As a lyncher IRL I find this change unacceptable and an infringement on my way of life.

[DJarJar]

I'm choosing to express the things I've created in the way I want to, insofar as it doesn't harm others experience. Isn't trying to have authority over others' expression the type of free speech suppression everyone is complaining about?

that was what i was getting at with my posts. That the coder is potentially liable for any issues with his code, so if anybody should have rights regarding changing the language, it's him.

[DJarJar]

that was what i was getting at with my posts. That the coder is potentially liable for any issues with his code, so if anybody should have rights regarding changing the language, it's him.

and that extends further to anybody who actually has the ability to change the code, which includes myself and voss at the moment.

[Voss]

And the reason why it matters now more than it did last week, or last year is because this thread was brought up. Now it's willingly keeping the word. Ignorance can't be feigned now.

(Although I'd admit it's a little bit of mental gymnastics to not take care of the noose emoji since it was brought up).

[secondpassing]

I'm choosing to express the things I've created in the way I want to, insofar as it doesn't harm others experience. Isn't trying to have authority over others' expression the type of free speech suppression everyone is complaining about?

Yeah, because now it feels like I didn't really have a say in the matter, you know? Kind of like a sigh of relief that I don't have to be held responsible about any sort of free speech debate's outcome. So if someone asks me, "Hey why doesn't this say lynch?" I can just reply that, "The mods of the site discussed it. It was for being inclusive to more people. I don't think we need to be so PC but whatever, it also has its good things."

Sort of a different feeling as if this was a democracy vs me just using this site as a user. Not sure if that explained it well.

[Exeter350]

The issue is that the people who feel strongly about such a change are myself, MM, Exeter, and presumably such people as Distorted, Ceko, blinkskater - and that’s just on our tiny website. Who are the people in favour if changing lynch?

To clarify my stance,

I understand where Voss is coming from:
(1) The word 'lynch' may have different connotations in the US
(2) It was MU's decision to be more inclusive
(3) MU did not ban the word 'lynch', understanding that theirs is a global community and such issues may not be relevant to the whole community
(4) People who leave over a word being replaced = People who leave over a word being used

I also agree that it is not difficult for the developer to implement the change, or the playerbase to follow it.

I disagree with the Amrock anecdote because 'lynch' is not a racial slur.
The degree of the problem is different in that context which caused that player to leave.

My two main concerns are:
(1) Where do we draw the line?
(2) Why was this change necessary in the first place?

Should MU replace the whole "Mafia" concept out of respect to families of gang violence victims?
You know, stories of gangs hanging headless corpses in public in South America or some shit.

How about replacing the Serial Killer / Mass Murderer roles out of respect to families of homicide victims?
You know, stories of people being kidnapped and carved up in somebody's basement.

Those are pretty gruesome issues too, why isn't MU doing anything about it?

Is it just a matter of how many people are making a fuss and threatening to leave?

If somebody on MU petitioned to ban Islam / China-related jokes (e.g. Haram, stoning, burqas, Winnie the Pooh, bat soup, "Coronavirus is China's fault" etc), will MU make any changes?

Or does that not suit their narrative or political focus?

It seems to me that this is:
(1) A pragmatic move to retain the playerbase they have (virtue signalling, pandering, etc)
(2) Highly dependent on the staff's personal political views

Both of which are an issue to me.

(1) Because it just means that if people whine enough, they can get their way
We should not be encouraging outrage culture

(2) Don't drag politics into everything to "make a stand"
Especially when their political views are limited in scope and don't cover the entire globe.

E.g. Ongoing issues in Latin America (gang violence), Middle East (women's rights), China (SCS fishing rights, coronavirus diplomacy, etc), Russia (Putin protests), issues in less well-known countries, etc.

As they say, theirs is a global community.

If they're going to take a stance on American politics, better make sure they cover the rest of the world too or don't open that can of worms altogether.

It passes off as being inconsistent, self-centered and hypocritical.

And if somehow MU were able to account for all ongoing political issues in the world, I suspect the end result is that people pretty much can't talk about a vast range of topics which may be distantly related to ongoing political issues. In such a situation, good luck trying to breathe without offending somebody.

Which is why such changes should not be encouraged.

But of course, it is their authority & decision how they want to manage their communities.
I think it's dumb double standards, but whatever floats their boat.



I find it incredibly awkward that the word "Lynching" is being defended so vehemently as though it has no ties to the killings of hundreds of African-Americans. The context that we use it for here is the niche context. It is definitely not standard.


If the meaning has always been there, why is it only an issue now?

[deathworlds]

And the reason why it matters now more than it did last week, or last year is because this thread was brought up. Now it's willingly keeping the word. Ignorance can't be feigned now.

(Although I'd admit it's a little bit of mental gymnastics to not take care of the noose emoji since it was brought up).

Well I got rid of it on the discord, I don't got perms for anything on the siteside of things
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[rumox]

To clarify my stance,

I understand where Voss is coming from:
(1) The word 'lynch' may have different connotations in the US
(2) It was MU's decision to be more inclusive
(3) MU did not ban the word 'lynch', understanding that theirs is a global community and such issues may not be relevant to the whole community
(4) People who leave over a word being replaced = People who leave over a word being used

I also agree that it is not difficult for the developer to implement the change, or the playerbase to follow it.

I disagree with the Amrock anecdote because 'lynch' is not a racial slur.
The degree of the problem is different in that context which caused that player to leave.

My two main concerns are:
(1) Where do we draw the line?
(2) Why was this change necessary in the first place?

Should MU replace the whole "Mafia" concept out of respect to families of gang violence victims?
You know, stories of gangs hanging headless corpses in public in South America or some shit.

How about replacing the Serial Killer / Mass Murderer roles out of respect to families of homicide victims?
You know, stories of people being kidnapped and carved up in somebody's basement.

Those are pretty gruesome issues too, why isn't MU doing anything about it?

Is it just a matter of how many people are making a fuss and threatening to leave?

If somebody on MU petitioned to ban Islam / China-related jokes (e.g. Haram, stoning, burqas, Winnie the Pooh, bat soup, "Coronavirus is China's fault" etc), will MU make any changes?

Or does that not suit their narrative or political focus?

It seems to me that this is:
(1) A pragmatic move to retain the playerbase they have (virtue signalling, pandering, etc)
(2) Highly dependent on the staff's personal political views

Both of which are an issue to me.

(1) Because it just means that if people whine enough, they can get their way
We should not be encouraging outrage culture

(2) Don't drag politics into everything to "make a stand"
Especially when their political views are limited in scope and don't cover the entire globe.

E.g. Ongoing issues in Latin America (gang violence), Middle East (women's rights), China (SCS fishing rights, coronavirus diplomacy, etc), Russia (Putin protests), issues in less well-known countries, etc.

As they say, theirs is a global community.

If they're going to take a stance on American politics, better make sure they cover the rest of the world too or don't open that can of worms altogether.

It passes off as being inconsistent, self-centered and hypocritical.

And if somehow MU were able to account for all ongoing political issues in the world, I suspect the end result is that people pretty much can't talk about a vast range of topics which may be distantly related to ongoing political issues. In such a situation, good luck trying to breathe without offending somebody.

Which is why such changes should not be encouraged.

But of course, it is their authority & decision how they want to manage their communities.
I think it's dumb double standards, but whatever floats their boat.




If the meaning has always been there, why is it only an issue now?

This post has been edited 19 times FeelsAmazingMan

Is it really virtue signaling? To me virtue signaling is someone who is bragging about being superior due to their outstanding moral opinion. I don't see changing a word only a bot says as virtue signaling, let alone bragging about being superior. If they outright banned the word, then yes then maybe it is worth discussing if it's virtue signaling. I also don't think politics necessarily has to come into question if someone has made a choice to be more inclusive, since when is being accommodating solely a political act?

[rumox]

If this happened in a public medium then yes it is a cause for concern, but I doubt a government would decide to replace the word 'lynch' with something else lol. A private entity is free to do whatever they want because you are free to go elsewhere. I recognize this while being rather alarmed at what Twitter and Facebook have been doing in regards to speech policing. A niche, small website changing the word 'lynch' to 'eliminate' only for their modbot is hardly a topic worth getting in arms about.

[DJarJar]

To clarify my stance,

I understand where Voss is coming from:
(1) The word 'lynch' may have different connotations in the US
(2) It was MU's decision to be more inclusive
(3) MU did not ban the word 'lynch', understanding that theirs is a global community and such issues may not be relevant to the whole community
(4) People who leave over a word being replaced = People who leave over a word being used

I also agree that it is not difficult for the developer to implement the change, or the playerbase to follow it.

I disagree with the Amrock anecdote because 'lynch' is not a racial slur.
The degree of the problem is different in that context which caused that player to leave.

My two main concerns are:
(1) Where do we draw the line?
(2) Why was this change necessary in the first place?

Should MU replace the whole "Mafia" concept out of respect to families of gang violence victims?
You know, stories of gangs hanging headless corpses in public in South America or some shit.

How about replacing the Serial Killer / Mass Murderer roles out of respect to families of homicide victims?
You know, stories of people being kidnapped and carved up in somebody's basement.

Those are pretty gruesome issues too, why isn't MU doing anything about it?

Is it just a matter of how many people are making a fuss and threatening to leave?

If somebody on MU petitioned to ban Islam / China-related jokes (e.g. Haram, stoning, burqas, Winnie the Pooh, bat soup, "Coronavirus is China's fault" etc), will MU make any changes?

Or does that not suit their narrative or political focus?

It seems to me that this is:
(1) A pragmatic move to retain the playerbase they have (virtue signalling, pandering, etc)
(2) Highly dependent on the staff's personal political views

Both of which are an issue to me.

(1) Because it just means that if people whine enough, they can get their way
We should not be encouraging outrage culture

(2) Don't drag politics into everything to "make a stand"
Especially when their political views are limited in scope and don't cover the entire globe.

E.g. Ongoing issues in Latin America (gang violence), Middle East (women's rights), China (SCS fishing rights, coronavirus diplomacy, etc), Russia (Putin protests), issues in less well-known countries, etc.

As they say, theirs is a global community.

If they're going to take a stance on American politics, better make sure they cover the rest of the world too or don't open that can of worms altogether.

It passes off as being inconsistent, self-centered and hypocritical.

And if somehow MU were able to account for all ongoing political issues in the world, I suspect the end result is that people pretty much can't talk about a vast range of topics which may be distantly related to ongoing political issues. In such a situation, good luck trying to breathe without offending somebody.

Which is why such changes should not be encouraged.

But of course, it is their authority & decision how they want to manage their communities.
I think it's dumb double standards, but whatever floats their boat.




If the meaning has always been there, why is it only an issue now?

The fifteenth amendment (blacks allowed to vote) was 1870.

The nineteenth amendment (women allowed to vote) was 1920.

That’s 50 years apart.


As eloquent as it was, I think your argument is ridiculous for trying to imply that you should either change everything all at once or nothing ever.

[DJarJar]

As ridiculous as you seem to find it, yes, changes do generally happen when people get loud about a certain issue. That’s kind of the way the world works

[Exeter350]

This post has been edited 19 times FeelsAmazingMan

LOL habit of a lifetime of frequently saving my work.


I also don't think politics necessarily has to come into question if someone has made a choice to be more inclusive, since when is being accommodating solely a political act?

Because the decision to be inclusive or not stems from political issues.
If there is no issue, there is no need to take a stance.

My problem is that such stances are usually limited in scope.

Black lives matter, what about Chinese lives?

As a Chinese, can I be offended at all the ongoing coronavirus jokes and comments?
E.g. Kung flu, bat soup, "don't let China cover up their mistake", etc?

Such anti-Chinese sentiments has led to discrimination across the globe, e.g. violence in US (the naturalised American-Chinese family who got slashed up with a machete in a supermarket, including their young child), racism in rural Australia, some parts of Europe, etc.

To these people, that China is responsible for the coronavirus is a fact.
Therefore all these anti-Chinese discrimination is only natural and acceptable, and people should not be covering up China's fault.

But please remember that while Western narratives paint China as the antagonist, Chinese media will (obviously) be arguing otherwise.

My point is:
Why are we talking so much BLM and ignoring all the coronavirus anti-Chinese discrimination going around?
Is MU banning talk about coronavirus and China?
Can the word ch!nk be treated with the same severity as the N bomb?

No. Because it is not relevant to their community and it does not reflect their political stance.


If this happened in a public medium then yes it is a cause for concern, but I doubt a government would decide to replace the word 'lynch' with something else lol. A private entity is free to do whatever they want because you are free to go elsewhere. I recognize this while being rather alarmed at what Twitter and Facebook have been doing in regards to speech policing. A niche, small website changing the word 'lynch' to 'eliminate' only for their modbot is hardly a topic worth getting in arms about.

Many words are already banned on most mediums for being racist slurs, e.g. the N bomb.

This could be a step in that direction.
i.e. If alarmists keep attaching new meanings to existing terms, and we keep censoring more words.

[rumox]

I really do not think a modbot on MU not using the word 'lynch' is worthy of being deemed a political issue lol. And tbh if trying to bring more people to the table is seen as an issue, and in the context of MU, one that doesn't even infringe on you personally (unless you consider reading something you do not like an infringement) then I honestly I think you are a bit of a turd burglar.

[Exeter350]

I really do not think a modbot on MU not using the word 'lynch' is worthy of being deemed a political issue lol. And tbh if trying to bring more people to the table is seen as an issue, and in the context of MU, one that doesn't even infringe on you personally (unless you consider reading something you do not like an infringement) then I honestly I think you are a bit of a turd burglar.

The "racist" connotations of the word "lynch" wouldn't even be called into question if not for recent events in the US.

Like I said, I understand that they're trying to bring more people to the table / be more inclusive, but where do they draw the line?

Do they give in to every demand for change?

Do they implement BLM changes today, then no anti-Chinese sentiments tomorrow, then no Islamophobia the week after?
Or do they just cherry pick their agenda, like "racism is bad if it's only against POC, but if it's Chinese people then nobody cares"?

I think this is a good discussion to understand our own community's stance on this.
By extrapolating MU's actions, we can also see where we stand on the same issue.

[rumox]

As far as I can tell people here either don't want it changed or want to change it to something funny. I personally don't have an issue with it and I don't think anyone here does.

As for where the line is drawn, it's technically never hard drawn. It's an evolving process that takes time. Website owners are free to speed up or slow it down at their discretion and to whatever degree they want it to be

[oops_ur_dead]

Yeah, because now it feels like I didn't really have a say in the matter, you know? Kind of like a sigh of relief that I don't have to be held responsible about any sort of free speech debate's outcome. So if someone asks me, "Hey why doesn't this say lynch?" I can just reply that, "The mods of the site discussed it. It was for being inclusive to more people. I don't think we need to be so PC but whatever, it also has its good things."

Sort of a different feeling as if this was a democracy vs me just using this site as a user. Not sure if that explained it well.

I'm not really understanding your argument. Are you saying people's speech should be subject to a democracy?

Maybe I misinterpreted your original post since it sounded like you were being sarcastic, my bad if that's the case.

[rumox]

secondpassing is neutral/soft leaning don't change on the matter. he doesn't really care and is just glad that someone else has made the decision for him so he can separate himself from it

i think

[rumox]

I personally don't have an issue with it and I don't think anyone here does.


In regards to using the word lynch, the people who want to change it to something funny wanna do it for the lols not that they have a problem with it

[oops_ur_dead]

secondpassing is neutral/soft leaning don't change on the matter. he doesn't really care and is just glad that someone else has made the decision for him so he can separate himself from it

i think

Hey I'll be honest I was pretty neutral until I saw that one of the MU propositions was yeeted and I thought it was hilarious lmao.

Tho changing it back would be an active decision to change it to "lynched" which doesn't particularly jive with me, why I suggested the idea of changing the word based on what MVP wants.

[rumox]

Pretty good way to serperate yourself from itSeemsGood

I do like it being a reward idea tho. Would be great to see what verbs people come up with

[Exeter350]

The fifteenth amendment (blacks allowed to vote) was 1870.

The nineteenth amendment (women allowed to vote) was 1920.

That’s 50 years apart.


As eloquent as it was, I think your argument is ridiculous for trying to imply that you should either change everything all at once or nothing ever.


As ridiculous as you seem to find it, yes, changes do generally happen when people get loud about a certain issue. That’s kind of the way the world works


As for where the line is drawn, it's technically never hard drawn. It's an evolving process that takes time. Website owners are free to speed up or slow it down at their discretion and to whatever degree they want it to be

Agreed with the big picture view.

Sorry, I think I understand now.

Yeah some people are uncomfortable with the term, so they changed it to be more inclusive.

As simple as that. Yeah agreed.

[rumox]

Only 3 edits this time FeelsGoodMan

Don't get me wrong I think it's kind of fucky to try and tackle. Like you or someone else said, the intention is good but the execution isn't. Just because the bot doesn't say lynch anymore doesn't mean people who are uncomfortable with the word are not going to be exposed to it anymore - I doubt people will stop using the word themselves. It's going to take literally cultivating a new culture where either people just straight up stop using the word in the game or are quick to sincerely apologize to the person that gets upset and then use a different word.

I really have a tough time imagining someone being upset by the word lynch, but hey I'm not black nor have I faced any struggles in regards to the stigma surrounding it. I wont stand here and say that it isn't a controversial word, only that from my perspective it has never meant to me what it may mean to others. This is basically why I do not care what happens to the word. It has no meaning to me in a game of Mafia, I can understand how it may make others uncomfortable, and there are thousands of other verbs out there that could take its place which can be tapped into for some cheap laughs and a mini-reward.

[yzb25]

I don't think anyone who struggles with the word lynch could handle mafia on this site tbh, and probably any site for that matter lmao.

[yzb25]

People I've known who got uncomfortable from such a word were the same people who would jump and try to hide their offense behind an awkward smile after any sort of light jab. Or would furrow their brows when they needed to swear xD.

[rumox]

I actually read the thread on MU beyond OP and lol... Makaze wants people who use the word lynch/lynched to be ridiculed into conformity if I read post #232 correctly?

[yzb25]

The vibe I get from MU is they're effectively going to make it into a social taboo, which is very narcissistic indeed.

Complaining about neglecting minorities while forcing a particular cultural view on everyone else. How very American :P

[rumox]

How very turd burglar of them

[BananaCucho]

GOOFY!

[Voss]

real talk, it's not a good idea to decide "our new word" based off a game, as fun an idea as that sounds on the surface.

[SuperJack]

The vibe I get from MU is they're effectively going to make it into a social taboo, which is very narcissistic indeed.

Complaining about neglecting minorities while forcing a particular cultural view on everyone else. How very American :P

*highfive*

[Sylvanas]

Don't get me wrong I think it's kind of fucky to try and tackle. Like you or someone else said, the intention is good but the execution isn't. Just because the bot doesn't say lynch anymore doesn't mean people who are uncomfortable with the word are not going to be exposed to it anymore - I doubt people will stop using the word themselves. It's going to take literally cultivating a new culture where either people just straight up stop using the word in the game or are quick to sincerely apologize to the person that gets upset and then use a different word.
Or better even, nothing. Maybe the people who are allegedly so deeply "uncomfortable" with a word with a debatable, vaguely racial connotation would be best served that way. No, you can't hide away from a word, not even duh enn word/IRL Voldemort. The word "lynch" isn't only socially acceptable (as long as you're not using it to threaten people), it's the one and only appropriate word in context. People aren't just "eliminated" or killed in mafia, they are executed via a majority extrajudicial judgement. It's literally what lynching is, and Mafia pretty much entirely revolves around it. If calling a cat a cat offends you, your problem is with reality and reality won't just go away.

Mind you, I'm an outsider, I don't know mafiauniverse and I don't really care about that change or think it matters much, but I think it's unjustified and an opportunistic PR move in the vein of Ben/Jemima. They're literally reaching for an excuse to rectify something that could be perceived as anti-black racism because it's what people do these days. I don't think the person that filed the complaint really felt uncomfortable, and I also don't think those who responded to it truly care, but I guess they all got what they wanted, so good for them I guess?

[secondpassing]

I'm not really understanding your argument. Are you saying people's speech should be subject to a democracy?

Maybe I misinterpreted your original post since it sounded like you were being sarcastic, my bad if that's the case.

Well no, you made it clear that this site is not a democracy and that I am not responsible for the word choice this site wants to use. <- all I was trying to say
I love it when people have the humility to apologize so.. *thumbs up* No sarcasm.


secondpassing is neutral/soft leaning don't change on the matter. he doesn't really care and is just glad that someone else has made the decision for him so he can separate himself from it

i think

Yeah, I don't care that much since I'm not an admin. If I was an admin, I'd say we'd need the site to distance itself from making political statements, and that we shouldn't feel any sort of compulsion to change the wording we use to describe killing someone in the group.

Thanks rumox for voicing the majority of the rest of my sentiment towards this topic.

[deathworlds]

real talk, it's not a good idea to decide "our new word" based off a game, as fun an idea as that sounds on the surface.

From what I understand it's that the bot will change the verb every game after the winner's MVP decides what it'll be.
So it wouldn't just stick around forever, and it'd be a game by game basis.

[rumox]

And obviously it would need a nod from MM or whoever before being accepted. I don't see anything wrong with it

[DJarJar]

From what I understand it's that the bot will change the verb every game after the winner's MVP decides what it'll be.
So it wouldn't just stick around forever, and it'd be a game by game basis.



And obviously it would need a nod from MM or whoever before being accepted. I don't see anything wrong with it

darn i thought voss would be the bad guy for me. Umm:

1) you'd have to have a consensus on who the MVP is. Another guy who might think he deserves MVP could get quite upset over such a simple thing

2) Voss or I would have to edit the bot code every time an FM game ends....


Guys there are plenty of ideas that would be less painful for me lol

[Voss]

it's frustrating to see the same arguments being brought up that I thought I debunked. no one reads wall posts, just like in fucking forum mafia.

[rumox]

The bane of great ideas, effort

[deathworlds]

1) you'd have to have a consensus on who the MVP is. Another guy who might think he deserves MVP could get quite upset over such a simple thing



Didn't we have an fifteen page (20 POSTS PER PAGE GANG) argument on why we don't particularity care about the ravings and ranting of one individual?
Either way we usually have at least a majority consensus on who a faction's mvp is, at least in my experience, if one person thinks they're entitled to mvp and therefor the privilege of changing one word in a bot for one game then that's their problem.



2) Voss or I would have to edit the bot code every time an FM game ends....


Guys there are plenty of ideas that would be less painful for me lol
Make an easy to use interface that changes it? It doesn't seem that particularly painful to change one word in an automated message, granted I don't know a ton about coding, but from the way Voss described it, it didn't seem that much of a challenge.

[rumox]

Yup.

A text box with a button. Only authorized people have access to it. Clicking the button makes the entered text replace the word. Authorized people speak to the MVP and ask for the word. Can't see why not! And yep mvps are already voted without any quells and if people start getting pissy when they dont get it now there is some incentive, they can simply get good.

[DJarJar]

I could do that, it would just be like an equal amount of effort as massively improving the ISO feature to be more like MU

[DJarJar]

Also it’s not one word. Lynch comes up like 20 times in the bot code. As an example x was lynched is one thing, but X votes to lynch is another thing... blah blah blah there are simpler rewards I can give you people!

[BananaCucho]

I could do that, it would just be like an equal amount of effort as massively improving the ISO feature to be more like MU

ISO feature more important IMO. Don't remember what its like on MU but on Mafiascum its awesome and makes me upset that we don't have that here

[BananaCucho]

5..

[deathworlds]

Also it’s not one word. Lynch comes up like 20 times in the bot code. As an example x was lynched is one thing, but X votes to lynch is another thing... blah blah blah there are simpler rewards I can give you people!

Oh okay that makes sense, bit more of an endeavor than I imagined

[DJarJar]

Oh okay that makes sense, bit more of an endeavor than I imagined

Hey it wouldn’t be that bad. But like first I’d need to replace all usages in the bot with a global variable right? Then I need to make like a web form to submit a change for that global variable? And only make it accessible for certain usergroups? It’s doable but a decent amount of changes. And I don’t like that if there is a bug in it, then FM would be dead until a sysadmin could come on and fix it ya know

[rumox]

Tabled under could not be fucked?

[DJarJar]

And btw I’ve added the following things to Fm in the last month which took a lot less effort:

1) quote break button

2) vote button

3) ISOs you can now see the full context of the post including the quotes

4) on ISO page there is a quote button now which I manually coded since normally search results can’t be replied to!

[BananaCucho]

And btw I’ve added the following things to Fm in the last month which took a lot less effort:

1) quote break button


Hey I found the button!


2) vote button


This one is cool


3) ISOs you can now see the full context of the post including the quotes


I did notice this, which has been nice, thank you


4) on ISO page there is a quote button now which I manually coded since normally search results can’t be replied to!

Didn't notice this one, will look forward to trying it out

[Voss]

Also it’s not one word. Lynch comes up like 20 times in the bot code. As an example x was lynched is one thing, but X votes to lynch is another thing... blah blah blah there are simpler rewards I can give you people!

it'd be a better effort to let narrator do setup building and game management than the godfather bot, but i'm just shamelessly plugging

[Ganelon]

Incidentally, I’m also working on something atm. It’s basically a web-based Setup Editor, because I hate having to use Rich Text to create setups.

[Ganelon]

Basically the UI would be much the same as SC2Maf (the mod’s) UI.
Except it would let you create custom roles and (hopefully, down the line) custom night actions.

[Ganelon]

The only issue is, I’ve literally never done WebDev before so I’m learning everything on the fly. I’ve got no clue if the way it doing it is right.

[HentaiManOfPeace]

Superficial action. What all black people want are to mitigate and remove systemic racism in public institutions. Rebranding words or names are but a superficial and empty gestures that have no value.

This is akin to ensuring that a constructed house is properly colour coordinated when its foundation is extremely weak and its materials brittle. People should be aiming towards fixing the foundations rather than making changes that makes everyone feel good about themselves.

[oops_ur_dead]

Superficial action. What all black people want are to mitigate and remove systemic racism in public institutions. Rebranding words or names are but a superficial and empty gestures that have no value.

This is akin to ensuring that a constructed house is properly colour coordinated when its foundation is extremely weak and its materials brittle. People should be aiming towards fixing the foundations rather than making changes that makes everyone feel good about themselves.

Very true. These types of superficial actions aren't bad per se, but it's not what people are really asking for, and it gives people a false sense of having done something when they do much more harmful things (or maybe not) in the rest of their day to day.

[Voss]

Superficial action. What all black people want are to mitigate and remove systemic racism in public institutions. Rebranding words or names are but a superficial and empty gestures that have no value.

This is akin to ensuring that a constructed house is properly colour coordinated when its foundation is extremely weak and its materials brittle. People should be aiming towards fixing the foundations rather than making changes that makes everyone feel good about themselves.

I think I've already rehashed a few times that the change is supposed to make the game a tiny bit more inclusive. Not something to make me feel good about myself.

[HentaiManOfPeace]

If you want to make the game more inclusive for the whole of community, make in-game racism reportable. Sick and tired of seeing so much hate, genuine or not, towards a small proportion of people of the US in a party game I'm trying to relax in.

We all know Blizzard doesn't do a good job of working on racism, so it's up to this community to step up and police it.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Superficial action. What all black people want are to mitigate and remove systemic racism in public institutions. Rebranding words or names are but a superficial and empty gestures that have no value.

This is akin to ensuring that a constructed house is properly colour coordinated when its foundation is extremely weak and its materials brittle. People should be aiming towards fixing the foundations rather than making changes that makes everyone feel good about themselves.

Although I completely agree with this (and already gave my arguments several times, here and on the other site that started the trend, and they included exactly that), I think you're confusing this, which pertains to FM, and the mod (arcade map on sc2). It's not the same game :P.

[Guillotina]

If a group of people who have a history of hate crimes against them, feel the lynch word should not be used because it glorifies the act (which still continues to happen to this day), why not change it? I changed the word for "Slay" (I might change it if vampires start to complain too).

[MartinGG99]

Related News:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/27802-New-Logo

Mafia Universe has made a new logo, determined by a months-long process as well as a public survey/poll.

The old logo used an M with a U-shaped noose attached to the middle point of the M.


https://i.imgur.com/ur2431x.png



The new logo had a few limitations, such as being limited to using only 3 separate colors. This was so that the logo could fit the the themes that users can use while browsing the website.

[Sylvanas]

If a group of people who have a history of hate crimes against them, feel the lynch word should not be used because it glorifies the act (which still continues to happen to this day), why not change it? I changed the word for "Slay" (I might change it if vampires start to complain too).
How many of them felt that way? Was it one? Did you ask around a bit or just decided that oNe Is OnE tOo MaNy even though there will always be one person?


Related News:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/27802-New-Logo

Mafia Universe has made a new logo, determined by a months-long process as well as a public survey/poll.

The old logo used an M with a U-shaped noose attached to the middle point of the M.


https://i.imgur.com/ur2431x.png



The new logo had a few limitations, such as being limited to using only 3 separate colors. This was so that the logo could fit the the themes that users can use while browsing the website.
A man called Montgomery Upshire has committed several hate crimes and that logo could remind some people of the atrocities he committed. May I suggest using the letters Q and Z instead? btw don't bother looking for information about Montgomery, all known mentions of his name were removed from the Internet and all written and audio recordings to prevent anyone from being offended.

[DJarJar]

Related News:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/27802-New-Logo

Mafia Universe has made a new logo, determined by a months-long process as well as a public survey/poll.

The old logo used an M with a U-shaped noose attached to the middle point of the M.


https://i.imgur.com/ur2431x.png



The new logo had a few limitations, such as being limited to using only 3 separate colors. This was so that the logo could fit the the themes that users can use while browsing the website.

wow our logo looks so much better

[MartinGG99]

wow our logo looks so much better

If I recall correctly in the discussion thread where they were trying to come up with a new logo, quite a few of the early submissions may or may have not included a hat in the likeness of the Sc2Mafia logo lol

They specifically tried to not be Sc2Mafia, logo-wise.

[Voss]

How many of them felt that way? Was it one? Did you ask around a bit or just decided that oNe Is OnE tOo MaNy even though there will always be one person?


A man called Montgomery Upshire has committed several hate crimes and that logo could remind some people of the atrocities he committed. May I suggest using the letters Q and Z instead? btw don't bother looking for information about Montgomery, all known mentions of his name were removed from the Internet and all written and audio recordings to prevent anyone from being offended.

i'm not going to address the first point because it was already brought up.

your second is invalid because no one is erasing records of usage of the word lynch.

[Mesk514]

They should of had ferd design their logo. they missed out