Punishment Vs Reformation & prisons.

[SuperJack]

Don't you feel like too many recourses are being used on prisons? Those with lifetime sentences we are paying a fortune to keep alive just to feed our hunger of inflicting pain to make amends. Wouldn't it make more sense to end them?

I mean. Not your American prisons. We know they are a total sham, using modern day slavery and prison wardens basically being businessmen, bribing your officals and law enforcement to keep the supply of slaves large. Your 3 strike system is hilarious.

Do you believe In rehabilitation? Do you think that they can be changed as a person and bring them back into society.
I think most can. And we should try.
But for those that cannot I prefer them to die.

[BananaCucho]

Don't you feel like too many recourses are being used on prisons? Those with lifetime sentences we are paying a fortune to keep alive just to feed our hunger of inflicting pain to make amends. Wouldn't it make more sense to end them?

I mean. Not your American prisons. We know they are a total sham, using modern day slavery and prison wardens basically being businessmen, bribing your officals and law enforcement to keep the supply of slaves large. Your 3 strike system is hilarious.

Do you believe In rehabilitation? Do you think that they can be changed as a person and bring them back into society.
I think most can. And we should try.
But for those that cannot I prefer them to die.

All research and successful drug policies show that treatment should be increased
And law enforcement decreased while abolishing mandatory minimum sentences

[SuperJack]

All research and successful drug policies show that treatment should be increased
And law enforcement decreased while abolishing mandatory minimum sentences

Drugs are not the only crimes.

[BananaCucho]

As far as the death penalty goes I'm 110% against it

It's never right to take another life. Ever. Not even getting into the facts such as the death penalty is more expensive than a life sentence, or that the death penalty is not a proven deterrent to crime. It is morally wrong to kill. And if you execute someone who is later proved innocent that is something you can never go back on.

[BananaCucho]

Drugs are not the only crimes.

My views are definitely heavily influenced by, as you put it, a terrible American prison system.

[SuperJack]

As far as the death penalty goes I'm 110% against it

It's never right to take another life. Ever. Not even getting into the facts such as the death penalty is more expensive than a life sentence, or that the death penalty is not a proven deterrent to crime. It is morally wrong to kill. And if you execute someone who is later proved innocent that is something you can never go back on.

Yet the money and recourses could be used to save other lives. Why waste it on someone who doesn't value lives?
Death penalty does not have to be expensive. Guillotine is really cheap and low cost.
And there are always going to be mistakes. If 1 innocent has to die so that 1 million guilty can end. It's fine.

[rumox]

A hurdle for abolishing mandatory sentences would be the sense of justice people get if this topic ever gains public traction I can see people voting for officials just to preserve it. I see mandatory sentencing being a very hard thorn to pull out. All for rehabilitation over punishment tho. If someone is in rehabilitation and working can fairly be attributed to them getting better (work experience, mental wellbeing, etc) then I'm fine with them being put to work but defs not for pennies.

Fun fact: Capital punishment here was abolished in 1922, and then in 2010 we amended our criminal code to never allow a state or jurisdiction to allow capital punishment ever again.

[BananaCucho]

Yet the money and recourses could be used to save other lives. Why waste it on someone who doesn't value lives?
Death penalty does not have to be expensive. Guillotine is really cheap and low cost.
And there are always going to be mistakes. If 1 innocent has to die so that 1 million guilty can end. It's fine.

Its not the cost of the execution. Its the cost of having an inmate on death row. The legal costs involved. And it has to be that way. You're looking to end a life. And whether you feel that life "deserves it" or not, its still a human being with human rights that deserves the chance to fight and appeal the death sentence

You say 1 in a million is innocent. Did you know that its a lot worse than you're stating? An estimated 4% of inmates on death row are innocent. You try to cut costs, you try to speed up the process because you think they "deserve it" and you'll end up killing 4 innocent people every 100 executions. No matter your view on human rights, that's simply unacceptable

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/28/death-penalty-study-4-percent-defendants-innocent

[Ganelon]

I don’t know much about rehabilitation, but as far as I can tell a not-insignificant percentage of people who commit violent crimes are not psychopathic. These ones are probably redeemable... I suspect the majority of violent criminals aren’t - especially with horrific crimes like rape or murder. I do support the death penalty for those who cannot be rehabilitated, although this should be balaneced such that you need an overwhelming amount of evidence to execute someone.

I’ve heard that male aggression declines between 20-27. So if someone went to jail when they were 20, there’s a chance they may be rehabilitated by the time they’re 27.

[Ganelon]

I don’t want to say that we should exclude those that aren’t psychopathic, or even worse to execute those who ARE psychopathic, but that seems like an effective solution. Although at the same time, not all psychopaths commit crimes (although they are definitely people you wouldn’t want to be around).

[oops_ur_dead]

And there are always going to be mistakes. If 1 innocent has to die so that 1 million guilty can end. It's fine.

Hard disagree.

Also 1 innocent to 1 million guilty is too optimistic. The number of death row inmates who are innocent in the US is about 4%. And even that level of precision means that it's more expensive to execute someone in the US than to keep them imprisoned for life, due to legal process.

Besides, I think life imprisonment is a worse punishment than death so it's a win/win.

[SuperJack]

If cryogenics is ever a thing. Would you be pro-feeezing?

[Ganelon]

Fuck yes

[Ganelon]

That gives me an idea. Maybe you could implant chips into people’s heads to forestall aggression in particularly aggressive people.

[BananaCucho]

That gives me an idea. Maybe you could implant chips into people’s heads to forestall aggression in particularly aggressive people.

You are pro-government controlling people through mental implants?

[Ganelon]

Lol no. It was just an idea. I’m thinking technology wil be the deciding factor here. Maybe in the future brain surgery will have advanced to the point where cognitive problems like psychopathy will become surgically curable

[secondpassing]

I don’t know much about rehabilitation, but as far as I can tell a not-insignificant percentage of people who commit violent crimes are not psychopathic. These ones are probably redeemable... I suspect the majority of violent criminals aren’t - especially with horrific crimes like rape or murder. I do support the death penalty for those who cannot be rehabilitated, although this should be balaneced such that you need an overwhelming amount of evidence to execute someone.

I’ve heard that male aggression declines between 20-27. So if someone went to jail when they were 20, there’s a chance they may be rehabilitated by the time they’re 27.

"Fifteen percent of the prison population qualifies as psychopathic, while fifty to eighty percent qualify for ASPD," said Athena Walker citing: Ogloff JR. Psychopathy/antisocial personality disorder conundrum. Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 2006;40(6-7):519-528. doi:10.1080/j.1440-1614.2006.01834.x

So you're right, a not-insignificant number of criminals are not psychopaths, you can even say a majority are not psychopaths, depending on your definition of that word. So anywhere between 7 and 40 percent of rehabilitation efforts are wasted.

-As not everyone is rehabilitated (some prisons only have rehabilitation for 10 percent of their population source I forget from where)

[yzb25]

The prison system is simultaneously expected to uphold different and sometimes even contradictory objectives. There should be more denominations of prisons distinguishing between, for example, people we are serious about rehabilitating and prisoners we have given up on.

That said, the entire notion of cramming a bunch of troubled individuals into a tight space where they can exponentially influence eachother fundamentally clashes with the idea of rehabilitation. I'm not going to pretend I have a solution for that, but I'd like to share it in case someone does. That thought's been bugging me for a while.

[SuperJack]

Anyone watch The Island?

What are the thoughts on memory wipes?

[secondpassing]

I think it would also be an easier debate instead of pitting punishment vs rehabilitation (which is what the public could see as another waste of money) than if people just saw the issue as: how much should we spend on punishment?

That way, alternative methods to curb crime could be considered. The rate of criminal activity varies based upon their environment. So I'm all for urban planning, education, and classes for public figures so they can learn how to interact with the community better.

And just to repeat what others have said: capital punishment uses more money than life imprisonment, rehabilitate people that can be

[yzb25]

What do you make of the idea of implanting chips in severely violent offenders so we can monitor their position even when they leave prison? It's certainly an uncomfortable idea, but one could probably make strong arguments for it. We seem to subconsciously agree that by committing crimes you lose access to at least some of your human rights.

[rumox]

There was a mini documentary on some nordic prison that emphasis rehab and it looked great. It seemed small so I'm left curious how a larger prison would go. Also goes without question some people are beyond rehabilitation.

[rumox]

Anyone watch The Island?

What are the thoughts on memory wipes?

If memory wipes on an industrial scale was possible I'd be terrified.

[Ganelon]

If memory wipes on an industrial scale was possible I'd be terrified.
Same

[Ganelon]

The first thing I thought of when you mentioned memory wipes was the Terran Dominion from StarCraft.

[Ganelon]

"Fifteen percent of the prison population qualifies as psychopathic, while fifty to eighty percent qualify for ASPD," said Athena Walker citing: Ogloff JR. Psychopathy/antisocial personality disorder conundrum. Aust N Z J Psychiatry. 2006;40(6-7):519-528. doi:10.1080/j.1440-1614.2006.01834.x

So you're right, a not-insignificant number of criminals are not psychopaths, you can even say a majority are not psychopaths, depending on your definition of that word. So anywhere between 7 and 40 percent of rehabilitation efforts are wasted.

-As not everyone is rehabilitated (some prisons only have rehabilitation for 10 percent of their population source I forget from where)
True but I was talking about violent crimes. How many violent criminals are psychopathic?

[secondpassing]

True but I was talking about violent crimes. How many violent criminals are psychopathic?

The statistic is for those in prison. I'm not sure how many of them have committed a violent crime.

Psychopathy leads to a disregard for the conscience/don't have one (depending on definitions) and so I'm sure there are a lot of psychopaths that swindled so hard they landed themselves in jail. They would be hard to rehabilitate as well, no?

[Ganelon]

Oh yes absolutely. Even more so in fact. Around 80-90% of psychopathic killers reoffend, compared to 40% of non-psychopathic ones.

[Ganelon]

AFAIK, there is no intervention that can be made that can stop adult psychopaths.

[SuperJack]

AFAIK, there is no intervention that can be made that can stop adult psychopaths.

So we eliminate them?

[Ganelon]

So we eliminate them?
I really don’t want to say that, it’s quitr tricky to eliminate someone just because they’re a psychopath. I don’t like pushes in that direction because it can easily lead to a plethora of other issues centered around mental health. At that point, what’s to stop you from bugging psychopathic CEOs’ apartments just because they’re psychopaths and this constitute a security/legal threat? In theory, I think the idea isn’t bad but there’s a huge potential for abuse there

[BananaCucho]

So we eliminate them?

lol you're the fucking psychopath

[Ganelon]

The evidence for psychopathy needs to be overwhelming, as well as evidence for the crime. It would be something that you’d have to be able to confirm with actual brain scans or something that cannot be manipulated (shirt if literally making up a brain scan)

[deathworlds]

I find the idea of retributive punishment abhorrent. Killing someone because they killed someone, does that make the system any better than the person who killed another?
I take a moral stance similar to utilitarianism, I first seek to reduce the amount of suffering present in the world, then increase the amount of pleasure.
I'll agree that any society needs systems in place that incentivize people to not break the rules, but mandatory sentencing, the death penalty, and private prisons really got to go, as these are all things that are contrarian to the idea of using our legal system for rehabilitation. Right now it seems like most people have some sort of justice boner when it comes people getting sentenced. How many times have you heard "oh I hope that guy gets raped in prison" or "i hope he gets beat up" or "you know what they do to guys like him", it's disgusting that people will cheer for using the legal system to put someone in a box where people will do extrajudicial actions to them. People don't seem to care about reformation for criminals (in my experience), even though they are people too

[oops_ur_dead]

What the fuck lmao.

No we shouldn't put brain chips in people. Nor should we brain scan people to determine if they should be eliminated. Nor should we execute certain types of people, or any type of criminal in general. What the fuck?

[S-FM Marck Wilbird]

What the fuck lmao.

No we shouldn't put brain chips in people. Nor should we brain scan people to determine if they should be eliminated. Nor should we execute certain types of people, or any type of criminal in general. What the fuck?

Fascism is a helluva drug

[deathworlds]

"Hmmm yes, these people are somewhat disruptive to my idea of an ideal society, let's mind control them and fucking kill them"

[BananaCucho]

"Hmmm yes, these people are somewhat disruptive to my idea of an ideal society, let's mind control them and fucking kill them"

They psychopaths doe, so it ok

[Sylvanas]

The lethal injection isn't even more "humane" than timeless classics such as the guillotine and the firing squad, which are also very inexpensive to boot. I'm not sure why it somehow became the preferred method. It's not instant or painless, and for some reason the drugs it requires are always in shortage or pharmaceutical conglomerates refuse to sell them, because clearly multinational pharmaceutical corporations value human life more than a few bucks (they don't).

Personally, as long as the evidence is indisputable, I'm pro-death sentence for rape and murder, and also for anti-vaxxers, in which case we should go the extra mile to actually enforce the lethal injection just because it would be hilarious and they need to suffer a bit. It may not deter crime, but it certainly doesn't encourage it and it also prevents recidivism, necromancy set aside.

[BananaCucho]

The lethal injection isn't even more "humane" than timeless classics such as the guillotine and the firing squad, which are also very inexpensive to boot.

Jesus do you guys just completely ignore everything I post? It's not the kill method that's expensive. It's the legal costs.

"The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences."

https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/

[BananaCucho]

"The overall increase in costs for death penalty cases reflects these procedural requirements. This results in the differences in how death penalty cases proceed through the investigation, pretrial, trial, sentencing and appeals phases, each of which is considerable more complex and time consuming than in non-capital cases.Some people may also make the mistake of attributing the high costs solely to defendants’ appeals, and to the defense for pursuing them. It is indeed a fact that litigating appeals in death penalty cases costs more than in non-capital cases because they are far more complicated and require more prosecutors, defense attorneys and judges to be involved.
However, we have discovered that every phase of an average death penalty case – not just the appeals – takes more people and more effort. In Oregon, for instance, there are at least two times the number of hearings and court filings in aggravated murder cases where the death penalty is sought than in similar cases where a death sentence is not sought. That leads to a lot more time and expense."

https://theconversation.com/the-death-penalty-is-getting-more-and-more-expensive-is-it-worth-it-74294

[BananaCucho]

"Nevertheless, the execution itself is the least of the costs involved on that fateful day. The state must also pay for wages paid that day alone, travel costs, goods and services for the media, and counseling for staff"

https://www.thebalance.com/comparing-the-costs-of-death-penalty-vs-life-in-prison-4689874

[BananaCucho]

"A Susquehanna University report found that, on average, across all 50 states, a death row inmate costs $1.12 million more than a general population inmate. In July 2018, there were 2,738 inmates on death row. That's almost $3 billion additional expense than if they had all been sentenced to life in prison instead."

Cost is the the stupidest argument anyone can make in favor of the death penalty, because the numbers are not on your side at all. Even if we just smothered the inmates with their own pillow.

[Voss]

Given human beings don't have immortality, I'd rather opt for the death penalty myself than spend the rest of my life in prison. That's just me though.

[BananaCucho]

Given human beings don't have immortality, I'd rather opt for the death penalty myself than spend the rest of my life in prison. That's just me though.

Assisted suicide eh? Thats another topic completely lol

[Sylvanas]

Jesus do you guys just completely ignore everything I post? It's not the kill method that's expensive. It's the legal costs.

"The greatest costs associated with the death penalty occur prior to and during trial, not in post-conviction proceedings. Even if all post-conviction proceedings (appeals) were abolished, the death penalty would still be more expensive than alternative sentences."

https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/death-penalty/death-penalty-facts/death-penalty-cost/
Yeah the entire justice system is kind of garbage too. I don't really make my opinions based on that backasswards money sink in which your wealth and social status let you purchase different degrees of "justice" for your crimes. When I say murderers and rapists should simply be killed, I don't necessarily mean in this context where you only get to do so after going through the required million layers of judicial and bureaucratic bullshit. I'm not against life in prison where needed, but the undeniable cases should simply be killed. Simply.

[deathworlds]

But you see, at least 4% people executed on death row were later found innocent. So it's clear that there isn't ever really indisputable evidence

[BananaCucho]

Yeah the entire justice system is kind of garbage too. I don't really make my opinions based on that backasswards money sink in which your wealth and social status let you purchase different degrees of "justice" for your crimes. When I say murderers and rapists should simply be killed, I don't necessarily mean in this context where you only get to do so after going through the required million layers of judicial and bureaucratic bullshit. I'm not against life in prison where needed, but the undeniable cases should simply be killed. Simply.

You can't have an "undeniable case" without that legal process that you are trashing though. As has been said by 3 different people now including myself, 4% of inmates on death row are innocent.

You can'y have your cake and eat it too. You can't get an "undeniable case" without the legal system and you cant have that legal system without incurring cost.

[oops_ur_dead]

I don't understand why someone would argue for the death sentence when life imprisonment in solitary is a worse punishment and doesn't require irreversibly killing a potentially innocent person.

[deathworlds]

I don't understand why someone would argue for the death sentence when life imprisonment in solitary is a worse punishment and doesn't require irreversibly killing a potentially innocent person.

I've always been torn between the death sentence vs life in prison.
A part of me thinks that having a person suffering for the rest of their natural life in prison is wrong
another part of me thinks that killing a person is wrong.

Maybe if we had better prisons that didn't stuff people into conditions not dissimilar to factory chickens I might be fine with life in prison as a sentence.

[Sylvanas]

But you see, at least 4% people executed on death row were later found innocent. So it's clear that there isn't ever really indisputable evidence
The only thing that's clear is that someone either fucked up or got overenthusiastic. The evidence is either irrefutable or it isn't. How about video evidence? If you've been watching the news, you may know about of a certain police officer who murdered a certain other dude he was arresting by obstructing his trachea for 9 minutes or so and choking him out. It's a pretty obscure bit of trivia, but you sound well informed so you may have heard of it. Who's going to dispute that? It happened a while ago... He could have just been killed off within the next day, wouldn't that be so much better for everyone?

I don't know the list of death penalty cases and the quantity and type of evidence for each of them, but I view death sentence as an ideal solution when the situation allows it. It may be more expensive, because we made it that way, but it shouldn't have to be.

[yzb25]

Whom among you prioritize justice? The ideal of creating a society where cruel actions have consequences, and delivering balance in lieu of any silent god. We all seem to lean towards rehab tbh. What a bore.

[BananaCucho]

Whom among you prioritize justice? The ideal of creating a society where cruel actions have consequences, and delivering balance in lieu of any silent god. We all seem to lean towards rehab tbh. What a bore.

Revenge is not justice.

[yzb25]

Revenge is not justice.

What is justice

[yzb25]

Don't throw the dictionary in my face either I wanna know what it means to YOU baby

God I hate it when people do that

[BananaCucho]

Don't throw the dictionary in my face either I wanna know what it means to YOU baby

God I hate it when people do that

Hahahahahaha

[Sylvanas]

You can't have an "undeniable case" without that legal process that you are trashing though. As has been said by 3 different people now including myself, 4% of inmates on death row are innocent.

You can'y have your cake and eat it too. You can't get an "undeniable case" without the legal system and you cant have that legal system without incurring cost.
The legal system? It's just a legal system we ended up with, and it's kind of fucking horrible. Featuring classics such as "extending procedures on purpose because why not", "having an assortment of random schmucks make the judgement", "choose a lawyer and get what you pay for", "using an overly complicated jargon that makes it inaccessible to those most closely involved" and countless more. I don't think it's so great.

[Frinckles]

Don't do the crime. 8)

[Frinckles]

But this will divulge into a debate about the judicial system as a whole instead of the actual topic if it hasn't already.

Feel free to find a perfect judicial system while you're at it.

[Frinckles]

besides that, if you want to actually talk about the American judicial system and not just call them shams, give me your arguments and what the correspondence is. Is it prison culture? Is it the prison layout? Is it atopical from your title? Or is this a moral discussion?

[Frinckles]

Don't you feel like too many recourses are being used on prisons?

Not too many recourses in most cases. When an individual is beyond circumvention, they're beyond circumvention. This is reserved for the most heinous of individuals.


Those with lifetime sentences we are paying a fortune to keep alive just to feed our hunger of inflicting pain to make amends. Wouldn't it make more sense to end them?

Yes. But, states have their own laws as well.


Do you believe In rehabilitation?

Yes.


Do you think that they can be changed as a person and bring them back into society.

Yes. Plenty of people can be re-introduced into society, as if it hasn't been the plot-line of hundreds of documentary films. The prison system has evolved substantially to offer benefits that never existed in the past few decades. Workshop, conjugal visits, shows from famous celebrities and even lethal-injection (see 'Old Sparky.')

[Ash]

Bring back the guillotine.

[SuperJack]

Bring back the guillotine.

Ask Marshmallow Marshall

[Crimson]

Hard disagree.

Also 1 innocent to 1 million guilty is too optimistic. The number of death row inmates who are innocent in the US is about 4%. And even that level of precision means that it's more expensive to execute someone in the US than to keep them imprisoned for life, due to legal process.

Besides, I think life imprisonment is a worse punishment than death so it's a win/win.


This year, as of the January 1st, 2020, there have been about 2.4k(estimation) death row inmates in the U.S.

So, I'm guessing you are saying 600 would have been executed. I find this acceptable.