Right-wing liberalism vs Conservvatism

[Ganelon]

Aka libertarianism vs conservatism.
A study I recently read made two claims:
a) Social conservatism is linked to lower IQ
b) Disgust sensitivity strongly linked to social conservatism

This study said that this does not apply to ‘economic liberals’, who tend to vote for ostensibly conservative parties (like the Republican Party). I want to go further and argue that this means that economic liberals and conservatives have very little in common, and I have a very strong feeling the media has been trying to paint ALL right wingers as being conservative (and also racist nazis).

I actually watch Tucker Carlson a lot and he has been attacked for ‘white nationalism’ even though the guy literally denounces racism every. fucking. minute. I really think this is indicative of the far left being very influential in our society. When being right wing is equated with being a racist, there is a HUGE problem in society. I don’t go around claiming all left wingers are communists...

I absolutely hate how they’re tying to make decent right-wing liberals hate their own views and trying to insinuate that they may be racist. For the longest time I actually had a huge problem with my own political views because I didn’t fully understand them. I’m not a typical conservative but I am definitely not left wing, and at the same time I’m not some kind of Nazi, and never have been. I found it extremely problematic to explain my views even to myself as I’m very liberal but also very hard-right when it comes to economic issues, and I’m sympathetic to religion (although I’m not religious myself, and I don’t like bigots - I grew up in a religiously bigoted country, and let me tell you it’s no picnic man).

Anyways, after having read that study I can no longer believe that right wing = conservative. Especially seeing as many left wingers were socially conservative (take a look at Che Guevara, or Stalin). Also, I remember reading that PC-authoritarians (basically people who try to stifle freedom of speech in the name of ‘equality’) are high in orderliness, which is linked to conservatism - far left ideologues as well as far right ideologues are actually conservative.

I just want to say, I think this culture of painting right wingers as nazis (more precisely, I think it has to do with economic liberalism) needs to stop because it is incredibly dangerous. I find the move GitHub has made to change the master/slave branches an example of this; they LITERALY have nothing to do with racism, and trying to find racist undertones in everything isn’t not only counterproductive but I actually believe it to be immoral as well. Claiming that the West is a fundamentally racist civilization is not only absurd, it is immoral. We are LITERALLY the least racist society on the planet. And the left should really move back towards the center and worry about the poor, and stop pushing this absurd the-West-is-evil narrative.

[Ganelon]

Anyways this is a bit of a rant but my question is:
What do you feel about the idea that right-wing liberalism has nothing to do with conservatism?
A second question is, why is the media trying to paint right wingers as immoral nazis?

[oops_ur_dead]

Claiming that the West is a fundamentally racist civilization is not only absurd, it is immoral. We are LITERALLY the least racist society on the planet. And the left should really move back towards the center and worry about the poor, and stop pushing this absurd the-West-is-evil narrative.

I take issue with this because I don't think there are people that claim that Western civilization is worse than any other, outside of fringe extremists. Obviously there are societies with far worse problems, like China with racism and many parts of the Arab world for sexism. The reason people focus on western society is because that's where the people that you pay attention to live. Do other societies have more to improve on? Absolutely. But what can I do about it? Basically nothing.


Anyways this is a bit of a rant but my question is:
What do you feel about the idea that right-wing liberalism has nothing to do with conservatism?
A second question is, why is the media trying to paint right wingers as immoral nazis?

Despite your post where you try to separate conservatism from right-wing ideologies, you're still falling for the American-centric view of left vs right. You say "the left" should really move back towards the center and worry about the poor, which makes very little sense because the left is more concerned with economic equality than centrists. I wonder how much you actually understand these terms and the ideas of the left when you say stuff like this. In fact, I see race issues as being largely outside of the scope of left/right.

I agree that right-wing liberalism has very little to do with conservatism. In the US, however, both have been consolidated into support for Republicans, which are a right-wing, authoritarian, conservative party. The media is hardly trying to paint right-wingers as immoral Nazis, after all, Fox News is the most watched news network in the US by almost double, and I doubt they paint right-wingers as Nazis. In a comparison to the Nazi party, you find a lot of people in the US who disagree with the conservative Republican rhetoric who like the Republicans for economic reasons. Just like how, in the rise of the Nazi party, a lot of their support were from lower-middle class people such as teachers and farmers who didn't care as much about their social policy but supported them for economic reasons. In hindsight, does that give them a pass?

[SuperJack]

Why are you all having the same arguements but starting at different points of the arguement.

Can we just skip a couple of chapters like nation health a good idea and stuff?

[BananaCucho]

Anyways this is a bit of a rant but my question is:
What do you feel about the idea that right-wing liberalism has nothing to do with conservatism?
A second question is, why is the media trying to paint right wingers as immoral nazis?

Libertarians are socially liberal, right? Meaning pro gay marriage and such? Feel free to educate me or correct me here. I can respect libertarians. We can disagree on things like the economy and thats okay. No problem.

As far a right wingers being painted as immoral nazis though. I mean, every white supremacist or neo nazi group is a far right conservative group. So while not all right wingers are going to fall into those categories obviously, theres a lot of common ground there. And if you defend the actions of such groups due to common ideals, its not a good look.

Take the "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville a few years back. This rally was literally organized by white supremacist, white nationalist, and neo nazi groups. People in the rally were literally carrying flags or wearing clothes with swastikas and other nazi symbols.

Its simple. Don't want to be associated with nazis or white nationalists or white supremacists? Reject them. But like actually reject them. Trump declared of this rally that there were "good people" at the rally on both sides. When a "good person" would a) not support, attend, or DEFEND a rally organized by white supremacists, or b) if they didnt realize that the rally was organized by these groups, once they see the symbols and hear the chants they turn around and go home. How can you reject nazis but stand side by side with them and chant what they chant?

Actions speak louder than words. Saying "I reject white supremecy" means nothing if you then defend a white supremacist rally. This is just one example of course. There'a no painting needed here.

[Ganelon]

The thing is, those neo nazis are in the minority. Looking at the media you’d honestly get the feeling that everyone who is right wing is a nazi. People say that Niger Farage is a Nazi, and honestly until I actually checked him out I thought he was one too. He explicitly condemns nazis and commented in the Charlottesville incident by saying that he thought it was unbelievable Nazi salutes were happening in America; he also specifically stated he didn’t agree with Trump’s stance on immigration from Muslim countries, and feels that its okay to accept Muslim immigrants so long as they’re not extremist. He is no Nazi and yet he is touted as some huge racist...

I think Trump has the same problem. He actually did specifically condemn white nationalists at Charlottesville, and clarified that he was referring to the people who didn’t want Robert E Lee statues torn down. Personally I actually agree with him but that’s beside the point: he specifically condemned them.

And, everywhere I look if you don’t agree with the media or with hard left stances like white privilege and affirmative action, you’re instantly attacked and labeled a racist/xenophobe/white nationalist. Honestly that term has lost its meaning.

My point is, the direction we are heading towards us worrisome. Sorry if my tone is a little extreme at times, I honestly am a bit of a bitch and I kind of enjoy being somewhat trolly, so that’s kinda why I’m so aggressive with these matters lol.

[yzb25]

Why are you all having the same arguements but starting at different points of the arguement.

Can we just skip a couple of chapters like nation health a good idea and stuff?

yes... pls can we tax the rich billionnaires just a little :(. I just want them to pay taxes too... I love Bill Gates he's such a GOOD PERSON for GIVING all that money FOR FREE but pls I just want him to pay his taxes... Why is this so hard DX

And maybe fine them of all of their wealth for tax-evading their entire lives, selling out our country's economies to hire slaves abroad and spitting in the face of society? :3

Oh wait hold on they released a statement declaring racism is bad awwh wow they're so kind and brave nvm then I guess..

[Ganelon]

Why are you all having the same arguements but starting at different points of the arguement.

Can we just skip a couple of chapters like nation health a good idea and stuff?
What do you mean?
Are you talking about health care? That’s an important discussion to have and I do support health care to some extent although I don’t think we should spend too much on it. I am not rich but I can’t see my good health being a right I am entitled to. I do think having a minimal public health care system is useful, but only to eliminate inequality for those who REALLY can’t afford private health insurance (e.g. those who explicitly cannot work for whatever reason).

[Ganelon]

Honestly corporative malpractice is something I cannot really discuss because I don’t know enough about it, although my suspicion is that it’s exaggerated.

[Ganelon]

There are some worrisome corporations out there, like Google. Or Facebook. Something needs to be done about the flow of information lol because it’s honestly not going in the right direction at all. Kind of ironic that a major corporation would essentially become a nexus of extremism and authoritarianism, but, weirder things have happened.

[rumox]

Ideological warfare needs to end and class warfare needs to begin.

[Ganelon]

It actually makes me think monopolies can be dangerous, although I suppose it depends on a case by case basis. The worst thing really is that they have a near monopoly on information, which is absolutely deplorable, it’s against free speech. I’m somewhat surprised they’ve lasted this long.

[Ganelon]

Ideological warfare needs to end and class warfare needs to begin.
American Revolution hype 2020
Workers of the world unite

[Ganelon]

I take issue with this because I don't think there are people that claim that Western civilization is worse than any other, outside of fringe extremists. Obviously there are societies with far worse problems, like China with racism and many parts of the Arab world for sexism. The reason people focus on western society is because that's where the people that you pay attention to live. Do other societies have more to improve on? Absolutely. But what can I do about it? Basically nothing.



Despite your post where you try to separate conservatism from right-wing ideologies, you're still falling for the American-centric view of left vs right. You say "the left" should really move back towards the center and worry about the poor, which makes very little sense because the left is more concerned with economic equality than centrists. I wonder how much you actually understand these terms and the ideas of the left when you say stuff like this. In fact, I see race issues as being largely outside of the scope of left/right.

I agree that right-wing liberalism has very little to do with conservatism. In the US, however, both have been consolidated into support for Republicans, which are a right-wing, authoritarian, conservative party. The media is hardly trying to paint right-wingers as immoral Nazis, after all, Fox News is the most watched news network in the US by almost double, and I doubt they paint right-wingers as Nazis. In a comparison to the Nazi party, you find a lot of people in the US who disagree with the conservative Republican rhetoric who like the Republicans for economic reasons. Just like how, in the rise of the Nazi party, a lot of their support were from lower-middle class people such as teachers and farmers who didn't care as much about their social policy but supported them for economic reasons. In hindsight, does that give them a pass?
I just find the politics that are being played right now worrisome. Maybe they are not on the left or their primary, defining characteristic isn’t their position on the left-right spectrum, but most of the people they’re attacking tend to be on the right (usually moderate right, too; nobody attacks the actual far right because nobody cares about them, they actually are extremists lol).

Like, it’s mostly people on the right or people sympathetic to issues advanced by the right that are attacked. That leads me to think that the people doing the attacking are on the left (the RADICAL left, because they otherwise wouldn’t be painting right wingers as nazis).

[Ganelon]

If you want another example, many in the US have lost their jobs for criticizing BLM. This is something the right has had an issue with for years now; that’s why I think it’s an attack on the right.

[Ganelon]

Sadly I feel that many of the people doing the attacking don’t really know what they’re doing and are probably thinking they’re doing the right thing lol. Doesn’t take much to indoctrinate someone who is young.

[SuperJack]

And that's why a national living wage is a good idea.

[Ganelon]

It’s just, I don’t know maybe I’m just too paranoid, but don’t you guys feel like there is a legitimate issue with how the moderate right is being attacked now, and specially how the West is being attacked? This white guilt narrative is a huge part of that. The idea that the west is a patriarchy is one, too.

[rumox]

I don't want a communist state, I just don't want the rich having such a disproportionate amount of wealth compared to the majority. That is wealth in all forms - money, power, influence, opportunities. The game is glaringly rigged against the majority and attention is always being focused elsewhere, usually towards the ideological conflicts. Both "sides" are guilty of this.

[Ganelon]

And that's why a national living wage is a good idea.
I’m not sure what that solves.
This will be a very insensitive thing to say, (remember I’m not rich by any stretch of the imagination, I’m actually rather poor rn), but: I don’t think that people who don’t know what to do with money should be give any money. Free healthcare, schooling etc is a good idea, but only up to s point. I don’t think having a minimum wage is a good idea.

[yzb25]

It’s just, I don’t know maybe I’m just too paranoid, but don’t you guys feel like there is a legitimate issue with how the moderate right is being attacked now, and specially how the West is being attacked? This white guilt narrative is a huge part of that. The idea that the west is a patriarchy is one, too.

We don't have that feeling because we don't watch Fox News lmao. They're a partisan hack network bent on convincing their viewers that the "other side" hates them and wants to destroy their way of life. They're constantly caught twisting what people say and do, editing pictures and outright lying. MSNBC and CNN are the same except more PC.

[Ganelon]

I don't want a communist state, I just don't want the rich having such a disproportionate amount of wealth compared to the majority. That is wealth in all forms - money, power, influence, opportunities. The game is glaringly rigged against the majority and attention is always being focused elsewhere, usually towards the ideological conflicts. Both "sides" are guilty of this.
That’s indeed an issue: relative inequality is actually related to crime. This is I believe mostly an issue in the US, although I’m not certain why. If you look at other high income countries like the Scandinavian countries, they don’t really have this issue of inequality, although it’s developing into a problem as well due to the number of immigrants from less well off countries they are taking in.

i actually think that regulating immigration for a while until things stabilize again is a good idea, although I’m not sure what else might be done about it. I suppose that having things like free healthcare (up to a point), would help. The real issue is that America is a highly competitive place, and even though there’s plenty of work to be had for the less well off, with high pay, too, it’s not that simple. The relative differences matter a lot.

[Ganelon]

We don't have that feeling because we don't watch Fox News lmao. They're a partisan hack network bent on convincing their viewers that the "other side" hates them and wants to destroy their way of life. They're constantly caught twisting what people say and do, editing pictures and outright lying. MSNBC and CNN are the same except more PC.
Maybe, but it’s not just Fox News here a lol. I’d have to assume that MANY people are lying about what’s happening and I can’t imagine that being the case. It would be extremely complicated; there’s multiple people who feel the same way as I do, and the majority aren’t public figures, or, at least, they’re heavily discredited.

[yzb25]

I’m not sure what that solves.
This will be a very insensitive thing to say, (remember I’m not rich by any stretch of the imagination, I’m actually rather poor rn), but: I don’t think that people who don’t know what to do with money should be give any money. Free healthcare, schooling etc is a good idea, but only up to s point. I don’t think having a minimum wage is a good idea.

Yeah and you think those people getting billions know what the hell to do with that either? The government and the mega-wealthy are always pedalling the notion that they know best, when time and time again they've demonstrated they do not. Some people may spend some of their wage on narcotics and shit, but they would still overall spend that money better than some massive institution actively funding political propaganda or toppling foreign regimes.

[Ganelon]

Canada has provinces with low income and low inequality, and the crime rate is very low there.

[Ganelon]

Yeah and you think those people getting billions know what the hell to do with that either? The government and the mega-wealthy are always pedalling the notion that they know best, when time and time again they've demonstrated they do not. Some people may spend some of their wage on narcotics and shit, but they would still overall spend that money better than some massive institution actively funding political propaganda or toppling foreign regimes.
They probably do for the most part, yes, although I cannot attest to that. Which companies and how many actually do the things you’ve accused them of?

[yzb25]

I’d have to assume that MANY people are lying about what’s happening and I can’t imagine that being the case. It would be extremely complicated;

It's not. The individual disseminators of information overlook the misinformation or logic jumps they're spreading because they still believe their ideology is correct as a whole and assume others in their ideology are telling the truth. The vast majority of consumers of the disinformation do not need to be involved in any misinformation, they're just passing on what they heard. This is how massive groups of people espousing comically wrong statements come to fruition.

Has Fox News ever shown you actual polling data of how many people think "The West is evil" or "The West is White Supremacist"? Of course not.

[yzb25]

They probably do for the most part, yes, although I cannot attest to that. Which companies and how many actually do the things you’ve accused them of?

The toppling foreign regimes was about the government, though the defense industry and oil industry indirectly contribute to that through lobbying. When I said "political propaganda" I was specifically thinking of all the propaganda the Koch Brothers funds discrediting climate change. Though more broadly anyone who pours lots of money into mainstream media company's pockets through ad revenue is contributing "political propaganda". Mainstream media outlets are incentivized not to question economic power due to the source of their ad revenue.

Just look out how soft all the left wing media outlets were on Michael Bloomberg, a racist, sexist oligarch who fundamentally opposes everything anyone remotely left wing stands for. They gave him a total free pass because he put 10s of millions into their pockets by paying for his political ads.

[rumox]

Regulating immigration where? In Australia it is very bloody vital that we have immigration lol. Because of coronavirus, the loss of international students is set to blow a $30b-$60b hole in the economy and that's just foreign students. We have millions of empty homes that immigrants can get the cash flow rolling on.

[yzb25]

The toppling foreign regimes was about the government, though the defense industry and oil industry indirectly contribute to that through lobbying. When I said "political propaganda" I was specifically thinking of all the propaganda the Koch Brothers funds discrediting climate change. Though more broadly anyone who pours lots of money into mainstream media company's pockets through ad revenue is contributing "political propaganda". Mainstream media outlets are incentivized not to question their economic power due to the source of their ad revenue.

Just look out how soft all the left wing media outlets were on Michael Bloomberg, a racist, sexist oligarch who fundamentally opposes everything anyone remotely left wing stands for. They gave him a total free pass because he was 10s of millions into their pockets by paying for his political ads.

I mean it's not only right-wing outlets funding political propaganda. That's just my bias showing. I oppose left wing billionnaires funding ads raising awareness for climate change. I just don't want oligarchs controlling our discourse lol

[Ganelon]

My real issue to give you an example of what I’m talking about is the idea that white people should feel responsible for slavery - in and of itself, an okay idea but then you get into the issue of blaming ALL white people for something that happened ages back and that most had nothing to do with. I think this is a form of class war disguised as race war, because the ‘oppressed’in this new narrative are ethnic minorities with low average income. You almost never see the media talking about Asians for instance, nor about Jews, even though a) they were LITERALLY massacred not even a century ago and b) it’s mostly whites who did that, and Antisemitism was extremely popular in the west until the Second World War.

[yzb25]

My real issue to give you an example of what I’m talking about is the idea that white people should feel responsible for slavery - in and of itself, an okay idea but then you get into the issue of blaming ALL white people for something that happened ages back and that most had nothing to do with. I think this is a form of class war disguised as race war, because the ‘oppressed’in this new narrative are ethnic minorities with low average income. You almost never see the media talking about Asians for instance, nor about Jews, even though a) they were LITERALLY massacred not even a century ago and b) it’s mostly whites who did that, and Antisemitism was extremely popular in the west until the Second World War.

bro how many left wing people "blame white people for slavery". How many left wing people have you spoken to on here or in real life who actually think that? How many white people do you think would tick yes if polled on the question "do you blame yourself for the atlantic slave trade?"

[Ganelon]

It's not. The individual disseminators of information overlook the misinformation or logic jumps they're spreading because they still believe their ideology is correct as a whole and assume others in their ideology are telling the truth. The vast majority of consumers of the disinformation do not need to be involved in any misinformation, they're just passing on what they heard. This is how massive groups of being espousing comically wrong statements come to fruition.

Has Fox News ever shown you actual polling data of how many people think "The West is evil" or "The West is White Supremacist"? Of course not.
The overwhelming majority of people, I suspect, feel as I do. There’s a reason Fox News and conservative out lets tend to have high likes on YT, for instance, compared to CNN, say.

And it’s not like this data is based solely off of FoxNews either: look at what GitHub is doing. Look at what Harvard is doing, look at what Cambridge is doing; look at what the various companies in the game industry are doing right now. Look at the comments political leaders in America (many of them Republican, many of them Democrat) are making on the George Floyd protests/riots. Look at how people are getting banned for not being left. Look at how Twitter is trying to censor Trump. Look at how coronavirus videos criticizing the lockdown are being taken down from YouTube. Look at how Trump’s rallies are attacked as ‘immoral’ because they endanger public safety, when the riots were actually given the geeen light by health experts because apparently racial inequality is a huge health risk.

Look at how in Canada a prominent professor went to a University to talk about free speech and was attacked by a mob of mindless students who proceeded to call him a ‘transphobic piece of shit’.

Its really not just Fox News lol.

[Ganelon]

bro how many left wing people "blame white people for slavery". How many left wing people have you spoken to on here or in real life who actually think that? How many white people do you think would tick yes if polled on the question "do you blame yourself for the atlantic slave trade?"
I don’t know, but that is what is being pushed right now lol.
Look at Wolfenstein the New Colossus. It is one of the most woke games I’ve ever seen in my life. America is literally run by the KKK in that game and the only rebels you meet are the Black Panthers and the communists, and they literally say white American joined in with the nazis... and just look how white Americans in that game are okay with things as they are and they’re very sympathetic to the Nazi regime, with many preparing to learn German.

One of the characters literally says, ‘come and get me you white ass fascist Nazi pigs’.
I’ll actually ask you to try an experiment: say that you’re a Bernie supporter in some WhatsApp group chat, and then try to say that you’re actually a Trump supporter. And compare the reactions.
Ibe actually done the latter and IRL I always claim to be neutral when it comes to politics because many people don’t like my views - which is fine but they take it to the extreme lol. Trust me, don’t say you’re a trump supporter if you don’t want some negative reactions from people.

[Ganelon]

I’ve actually had a number of people talk about white privilege, someone in a WhatsApp chat (a friend of mine) got kicked over something related to that. Many people defended him but a lot just wanted to kick for no reason.

[SuperJack]

Canada has provinces with low income and low inequality, and the crime rate is very low there.

That's unfair. We all know what Canadians are like.

[Ganelon]

That's unfair. We all know what Canadians are like.
Okay, true that.
More seriously I feel that inequality is really what drives the crime rate up

[yzb25]

The overwhelming majority of people, I suspect, feel as I do. There’s a reason Fox News and conservative out lets tend to have high likes on YT, for instance, compared to CNN, say.

And it’s not like this data is based solely off of FoxNews either: look at what GitHub is doing. Look at what Harvard is doing, look at what Cambridge is doing; look at what the various companies in the game industry are doing right now. Look at the comments political leaders in America (many of them Republican, many of them Democrat) are making on the George Floyd protests/riots. Look at how people are getting banned for not being left. Look at how Twitter is trying to censor Trump. Look at how coronavirus videos criticizing the lockdown are being taken down from YouTube. Look at how Trump’s rallies are attacked as ‘immoral’ because they endanger public safety, when the riots were actually given the geeen light by health experts because apparently racial inequality is a huge health risk.

Look at how in Canada a prominent professor went to a University to talk about free speech and was attacked by a mob of mindless students who proceeded to call him a ‘transphobic piece of shit’.

Its really not just Fox News lol.

Dude these companies literally do whatever they need to satisfy the twitter mob of the day. Some right wing outlet published a video showing some CNN figure claiming to be a democratic socialist. The guy got fired within days. Some lady missing an arm got kicked off the BBC because parents were complaining she "was scaring their children". in the US, you could legally fire someone for being LGBTQ+ until very recently. The outlets you see concentrate on the cases that suit your ideology.

Also, you can't use the likes on a youtube video to measure the cultural zeitgeist. The like/dislike suffers from a massive selection bias. Right wing people are happy with Fox News' content. No self-respecting leftist (or anyone) is happy with the bullshit CNN is pedalling. All of CNN's political videos get heavily disliked, irrespective of whether they're about economics or ideology, afaik.

[oops_ur_dead]

CNN is pretty cringe but let's not pretend it's quite as bad as Fox News lol. People who watch Fox News are significantly less informed than people who don't watch news at all, which isn't true of CNN: http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2012/confirmed/

[Ganelon]

Why would they need to satisfy the mob of the day if the mob of the day weren’t in favour of their views?
And I don’t think they are. I think the silent majority doesn’t care about the BS that’s being pushed rn.

[yzb25]

To be clear I'm not trying to say "SJW"s don't exist". I'm saying they are a tiny minority of people with very little actual power and the sway they seem to hold over companies amounts to detatched companies pandering to whatever mob they see for PR. When "woke movies" or "woke video games" are made, it's meaningless symbolism that your outlets convince you is part of a grand cultural takeover rather than companies being goofy.

[yzb25]

The perception of them is many times greater than their actual size. Everyone has seen that clip of the red-haired feminist woman from a few years back being super rude on camera. That means lots of people have now had an "SJW experience" even though only one SJW is behind that moment.

[rumox]

Vox is cringe but this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ) piece on Tucker Carlson sums up the wool pulling over the eyes the media does. This tactic isn't exclusive to Tucker or FOX. Better for them that we are mad at each other or just generally ignorant to the pressing matters.

[yzb25]

Why would they need to satisfy the mob of the day if the mob of the day weren’t in favour of their views?
And I don’t think they are. I think the silent majority doesn’t care about the BS that’s being pushed rn.

PR is extremely important.

[Ganelon]

Vox is cringe but this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ) piece on Tucker Carlson sums up the wool pulling over the eyes the media does. This tactic isn't exclusive to Tucker or FOX. Better for them that we are mad at each other or just generally ignorant to the pressing matters.
I have to admit that video looks pretty good.

[Ganelon]

To be clear I'm not trying to say "SJW"s don't exist". I'm saying they are a tiny minority of people with very little actual power and the sway they seem to hold over companies amounts to detatched companies pandering to whatever mob they see for PR. When "woke movies" or "woke video games" are made, it's meaningless symbolism that your outlets convince you is part of a grand cultural takeover rather than companies being goofy.
They are a minority all right, but I do think they’re very influential...

[yzb25]

They are a minority all right, but I do think they’re very influential...

What tangible policies have these 19yo dyed-hair college kids managed to pass? Don't you dare mention that Canadian pronoun law :P

[Ganelon]

What tangible policies have these 19yo dyed-hair college kids managed to pass? Don't you dare mention that Canadian pronoun law :P
I kinda wanted to stay away from that but yeah that’s what was done.
Don’t forget the Kathy Newman interview.

[oops_ur_dead]

What tangible policies have these 19yo dyed-hair college kids managed to pass? Don't you dare mention that Canadian pronoun law :P

The Canada pronoun law hit the country hard. I remember the one time I was going to Tim Hortons with my buddy, and they only added one cream instead of two to his coffee. Dude started bitching about it, and without thinking, I said "dude stop being such a wom-". Before I could even get the word out, the Pronoun Police had stopped right next to me and withdrew their guns, and screamed at me to get on the ground for misgendering someone who had clearly identified themselves as he/him as per the new mandatory pronoun name tags. Obviously, misgendering someone carries a penalty of immediate summary execution, so I started praying (to a non-denominational god, of course, as all deities except for Allah had been banned 2 years prior). Then, out of nowhere, both cops got run over by a mystery car. The door opened, and it was none other than Jordan Peterson, come to personally save me from tyranny. He told me to hop in and offered me a Xanax, then we drove off into the sunset to go trigger more college students.

[Ganelon]

Lmao that is going in my signature

[rumox]

So are we eating the rich?

[Renegade]

I’m not sure what that solves.
This will be a very insensitive thing to say, (remember I’m not rich by any stretch of the imagination, I’m actually rather poor rn), but: I don’t think that people who don’t know what to do with money should be give any money. Free healthcare, schooling etc is a good idea, but only up to s point. I don’t think having a minimum wage is a good idea.

Jebus. Christ.

Poor people deserve to be poor because they don't know how to handle money. Yes I'm not shocked at all you only watch Cucker Carlson.

[Renegade]

So basically, Ganelon is in panic mode because of a handful of anecdotes and instances of ***THE LEFT*** doing things like change master/slave, putting a warning on Trump's manipulated media tweets, calling out Trump and others for saying "good people on both sides" - re: Charlottesville. This panic is brought on by Fox News consumption, which is doing exactly what it was intended and designed to do.

What exactly are you scared of? Being fired for being a racist?

[yzb25]

The Canada pronoun law hit the country hard. I remember the one time I was going to Tim Hortons with my buddy, and they only added one cream instead of two to his coffee. Dude started bitching about it, and without thinking, I said "dude stop being such a wom-". Before I could even get the word out, the Pronoun Police had stopped right next to me and withdrew their guns, and screamed at me to get on the ground for misgendering someone who had clearly identified themselves as he/him as per the new mandatory pronoun name tags. Obviously, misgendering someone carries a penalty of immediate summary execution, so I started praying (to a non-denominational god, of course, as all deities except for Allah had been banned 2 years prior). Then, out of nowhere, both cops got run over by a mystery car. The door opened, and it was none other than Jordan Peterson, come to personally save me from tyranny. He told me to hop in and offered me a Xanax, then we drove off into the sunset to go trigger more college students.

HAHAHAHAHAH

[Renegade]

Speaking of the fraud known as Jordan Peterson, isn't he paralyzed from an experimental treatment for benzo addiction?

Why didn't he just clean his room rather than pop benzos?

[BananaCucho]

The thing is, those neo nazis are in the minority. Looking at the media you’d honestly get the feeling that everyone who is right wing is a nazi. People say that Niger Farage is a Nazi, and honestly until I actually checked him out I thought he was one too. He explicitly condemns nazis and commented in the Charlottesville incident by saying that he thought it was unbelievable Nazi salutes were happening in America; he also specifically stated he didn’t agree with Trump’s stance on immigration from Muslim countries, and feels that its okay to accept Muslim immigrants so long as they’re not extremist. He is no Nazi and yet he is touted as some huge racist...

I think Trump has the same problem. He actually did specifically condemn white nationalists at Charlottesville, and clarified that he was referring to the people who didn’t want Robert E Lee statues torn down. Personally I actually agree with him but that’s beside the point: he specifically condemned them.

And, everywhere I look if you don’t agree with the media or with hard left stances like white privilege and affirmative action, you’re instantly attacked and labeled a racist/xenophobe/white nationalist. Honestly that term has lost its meaning.

My point is, the direction we are heading towards us worrisome. Sorry if my tone is a little extreme at times, I honestly am a bit of a bitch and I kind of enjoy being somewhat trolly, so that’s kinda why I’m so aggressive with these matters lol.

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. Condemning something is meaningless if you then turn around and defend the very thing you are condemning. Words are cheap that way.

[naz]

ahhhh
time to log in for my daily cringe
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695721238349217943/723620699008401408/20200608_152403.jpg

[BananaCucho]

Galeon how can Trump condemn white nationalists and then defend white nationalists for not wanting confederate statues removed? How can someone really condemn white nationalism if they actually support white nationalist views? How can a good person who just wants to "defend a historical monument" or whatever in good conscience stay at that rally side by side with nazis?

The rally was organized by white supremacists. If you defend a rally organized by white supremacists in any capacity, are you really condemning white supremacy?

[Ganelon]

There were other people in Charlottesville who weren’t white nationalists and didnt want the statues removed

[Ganelon]

I personally don’t think the statues should’ve been removed. They’re not strictly a symbol of slavery per se.

[BananaCucho]

There were other people in Charlottesville who weren’t white nationalists and didnt want the statues removed

The rally was organized by white supremacists. How is it okay to attend a rally organized my white supremacists? Can't you at least see how attending a rally organized by nazis might make people think you're a nazi?

[BananaCucho]

Like its one thing if the rally was organized by right wingers that arent nazis, and nazis then attend the rally and those who arent nazis publicly SHAMED and rejected the nazis

But a rally organized by nazis. Cmon man.

[Renegade]

I personally don’t think the statues should’ve been removed. They’re not strictly a symbol of slavery per se.

Actually they kind of are. A lot of them were put up in response to the civil rights movement. Do the math there.

[naz]

I personally don’t think the statues should’ve been removed. They’re not strictly a symbol of slavery per se.

Mag....have u looked at them?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Emancipation_Memorial.jpg

[naz]

oh love that broken link for me ^_^

[BananaCucho]

Mag....have u looked at them?
https://miro.medium.com/max/1400/1*sQ80yFG0t-zk-MugzWTb2g.jpeg

"Yeah but that doesn't fit the fox news narrative that the left is oppressing the right so imma ignore that!"

[Ganelon]

Two local groups who support preserving the Lee statue also condemned Saturday's protests.
"We remain committed to preserving the Robert E. Lee Monument in its park through the legal process in the courts because of its historic and artistic value," said a group called Save the Robert E. Lee Statue (https://www.facebook.com/R.E.Leehistory/posts/471275936597530). "We soundly and completely reject racism, white supremacy, and any other identity-based groups that preach division and hate no matter which side of the issue they happen to support."

[yzb25]

I remember hearing the confederate flag in common use today isn't the original flag commonly used during the short-lived 5 year long confederacy. It's a flag that largely rose to prominence when it was flown as a middle finger to the civil rights movement.

[Ganelon]

Mag....have u looked at them?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Emancipation_Memorial.jpg
The Robert E Lee has nothing to do with that.
Its just a guy on horseback.
The confederacy WAS racist, but these aren’t symbols of racism, theyre symbols of Southern culture. And that isn’t all about racism lol

[Ganelon]

I remember hearing the confederate flag in common use today isn't the original flag commonly used during the short-lived 5 year long confederacy. It's a flag that largely rose to prominence when it was flown as a middle finger to the civil rights movement.
It rose to prominence during the Civil War; the actual Confederate flag was too similar to the US flag.

[yzb25]

Two local groups who support preserving the Lee statue also condemned Saturday's protests.
"We remain committed to preserving the Robert E. Lee Monument in its park through the legal process in the courts because of its historic and artistic value," said a group called Save the Robert E. Lee Statue (https://www.facebook.com/R.E.Leehistory/posts/471275936597530). "We soundly and completely reject racism, white supremacy, and any other identity-based groups that preach division and hate no matter which side of the issue they happen to support."

















Where would you draw the line? Would you keep up a statue of Joseph Stalin in a public square, even if some of the taxpayers contributing to looking after that statue are descendants of refugees who fled from Stalinism? That statue would also certainly have historical and, potentially, artistic value.

[Ganelon]

"Yeah but that doesn't fit the fox news narrative that the left is oppressing the right so imma ignore that!"
I’ve been nothing but respectful so idk why y’all are trolling me like that lmao

[Ganelon]

Where would you draw the line? Would you keep up a statue of Joseph Stalin in a public square, even if some of the taxpayers contributing to looking after that statue are descendants of refugees who fled from Stalinism? That statue would also certainly have historical and, potentially, artistic value.
A statue of Stalin is completely different. Stalin killed millions; Robert Lee didn’t.

[BananaCucho]

Two local groups who support preserving the Lee statue also condemned Saturday's protests.
"We remain committed to preserving the Robert E. Lee Monument in its park through the legal process in the courts because of its historic and artistic value," said a group called Save the Robert E. Lee Statue (https://www.facebook.com/R.E.Leehistory/posts/471275936597530). "We soundly and completely reject racism, white supremacy, and any other identity-based groups that preach division and hate no matter which side of the issue they happen to support."


...did you read the whole post? You wanna quote the first part that you conveniently left out here? Or should I?

It has come to our attention that several out-of-town groups associated with white supremacy and identarian beliefs conducted events and protests in both Lee and Jackson Parks today. Neither Save the Robert E. Lee Statue nor The Monument Fund were in any way involved in these events and only learned of them though media reports.



1) They acknowledge that these rallies were organized and conducted by white supremacist groups, rather than beat around the bush about that

2) They WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THE EVENTS. Meaning they did not tell people to go. They did not attend the rally. They are DISTANCING themselves from this event. They are not defending anyone at the event. THIS is how you reject nazis. There's no defense here of the people that attended the rally. lmfao. What are you doin man.

[yzb25]

It rose to prominence during the Civil War; the actual Confederate flag was too similar to the US flag.

https://gyazo.com/2a93da126f83dc851086411ae74945fe

idk if this is reliable but I've heard it elsewhere... I can't recall a more reliable source right now

[Ganelon]

Anyways I think statues of Lenin and Stalin shouldn’t exist, not after a century of communist attrocities.
Do I think a statue of George Zhukov should be removed? No, I don’t, again, it’s completely different.
I think the line should be, I remember someone in the confederacy gave a speech about how the confederacy was based around the idea of white supremacy. Obviously that guy shouldn’t have any statues, anywhere.
With politically non involved people however? Sure, whatever. You can even put up statues of Rommel - the only German officer who wasn’t a Nazi and didn’t kill Jews

[rumox]

Statues in public spaces should be left to the locals to determine whether they want them or not. If a majority does not want it, it should be relocated to somewhere private. I wouldn't want to destroy statues of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot but I certainly wouldn't want them in a public square. A museum would be my choice of their new location.

[BananaCucho]

I’ve been nothing but respectful so idk why y’all are trolling me like that lmao

Probably because you are defending nazis. And no, I am not twisting anything you're saying. You're defending people that attended a nazi rally (aka nazis), that makes you a nazi defender. I don't know how else to put that simply.

[Ganelon]

Anyway, it depends a great deal. I don’t think it should be illegal per se, as I don’t think outlawing dangerous ideologies really helps, but I do think a statue of Georgy Zhukov would be appropriate and I would have no issues with it.

[Ganelon]

Probably because you are defending nazis. And no, I am not twisting anything you're saying. You're defending people that attended a nazi rally (aka nazis), that makes you a nazi defender. I don't know how else to put that simply.
Lol what, where did I defend Nazism? Honestly when you guys say shit like this I lose all willpower to keep debating, this is a very nasty thing to say to someorn

[yzb25]

A statue of Stalin is completely different. Stalin killed millions; Robert Lee didn’t.

Yeah, Stalin was much worse. I'm trying to guage how bad the man of the statue needs to be to justify being taken down in your eyes. Robert Lee fought for the preservation of slavery, but didn't personally own millions of slaves. Perhaps you'd be alright with some prominent Soviet general who didn't directly order the deaths of millions but was a nonetheless heroic general who defended Stalin's rule? If Stalin only enslaved millions of people rather than killing them would it be alright to put up a statue of Stalin then?

[yzb25]

I'm not intentionally trying to sound like I'm strawmanning you I'm trying to make sense of where you draw the line. Putting up a statue of someone suggests you pedestalize them as an ideal. Or at least that's what I thought. That's why we don't put up statues of people that happen to have historical prominence but are terrible people, right?

[Ganelon]

Banana, I didn’t ANYWHERE say that nazis are good, I have never said such a thing and I eill
never say it, because it completely goes against my beliefs. I’m not deciding Nazi defenders, I’m explaining why I think trump isn’t a white nationalist. He’s actually benefitted ethnic minorities, more so than Obsma, per se.

Isnt this the initial ‘if you don’t agree with me you’re a nazi’ I was talking g about?

[BananaCucho]

Lol what, where did I defend Nazism? Honestly when you guys say shit like this I lose all willpower to keep debating, this is a very nasty thing to say to someorn

You defended nazis here.


There were other people in Charlottesville who weren’t white nationalists and didnt want the statues removed

Bro it was a nazi rally. A white supremacist rally. It was organized by white supremacist groups for months and was sold as a white supremacy rally.

If you attend a nazi rally, see all the nazi symbolism and hear the nazi chants and stay you are not someone worth defending. Yet here you continue to defend nazis.

[Renegade]

Two local groups who support preserving the Lee statue also condemned Saturday's protests.
"We remain committed to preserving the Robert E. Lee Monument in its park through the legal process in the courts because of its historic and artistic value," said a group called Save the Robert E. Lee Statue (https://www.facebook.com/R.E.Leehistory/posts/471275936597530). "We soundly and completely reject racism, white supremacy, and any other identity-based groups that preach division and hate no matter which side of the issue they happen to support."



When declining an invitation to erect statues from the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association, Lee said, "I think it wiser not to keep open the sores of war, but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavoured to obliterate the marks of civil strife and to commit to oblivion the feelings it has engendered."

What about the man himself saying NO to statues?

[BananaCucho]

Banana, I didn’t ANYWHERE say that nazis are good, I have never said such a thing and I eill
never say it, because it completely goes against my beliefs. I’m not deciding Nazi defenders, I’m explaining why I think trump isn’t a white nationalist. He’s actually benefitted ethnic minorities, more so than Obsma, per se.

Isnt this the initial ‘if you don’t agree with me you’re a nazi’ I was talking g about?

You are completely ignoring my points

No where did I say "if you don't agree with me you're a nazi". I never called you a nazi. I said you were a nazi defender.

It's empty to say "I reject nazis" and then defend people that attend a nazi rally. Like how do you even do that. What type of mental gymnastics does it take.

[Ganelon]

I'm not intentionally trying to sound like I'm strawmanning you I'm trying to make sense of where you draw the line. Putting up a statue of someone suggests you pedestalize them as an ideal. Or at least that's what I thought. That's why we don't put up statues of people that happen to have historical prominence but are terrible people, right?
Right. How about we put up a statue of Georgi Zhukov? I have absolutely no problem with that. Just not Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler. None of them deserve statues. Generals are completely different , however. It’s really not as if Southern culture is strictly about racism; even back then it wasn’t. I don’t particularly like it myself as it’s a bit backward in my eyes, but hey, if they want to be proud of their history sure. Nobody is exalting the virtues of slavery, apart from the white nationalists. Really nothing wrong with Southern culture, and it’s jot all racist

[Ganelon]

You defended nazis here.



Bro it was a nazi rally. A white supremacist rally. It was organized by white supremacist groups for months and was sold as a white supremacy rally.

If you attend a nazi rally, see all the nazi symbolism and hear the nazi chants and stay you are not someone worth defending. Yet here you continue to defend nazis.
i LITERALLY said there were other groups who weren’t Nazi. How am I defending nazis

[Ganelon]

You are completely ignoring my points

No where did I say "if you don't agree with me you're a nazi". I never called you a nazi. I said you were a nazi defender.

It's empty to say "I reject nazis" and then defend people that attend a nazi rally. Like how do you even do that. What type of mental gymnastics does it take.
okay fine but you can see how people might feel offended at being called Nazi defenders I hope

[oops_ur_dead]

Robert E. Lee wasn't an American war general, he fought for a traitor nation against the US. Maybe statues of Georgy Zhukov would be appropriate in Russia. How about statues of Zhukov in Eastern Germany, Poland, or any European country that fell to communism, though? Would that be appropriate? Do you think the people would be right in being upset with that?

[Ganelon]

Yeah, Stalin was much worse. I'm trying to guage how bad the man of the statue needs to be to justify being taken down in your eyes. Robert Lee fought for the preservation of slavery, but didn't personally own millions of slaves. Perhaps you'd be alright with some prominent Soviet general who didn't directly order the deaths of millions but was a nonetheless heroic general who defended Stalin's rule? If Stalin only enslaved millions of people rather than killing them would it be alright to put up a statue of Stalin then?
I’d be okay with a Soviet general, yes.
No it wouldn’t. I don’t see the difference. But Robert Lee didn’t do that.

[oops_ur_dead]

Like imagine putting up statues of Donald Rumsfeld in Iraq lmao.

[Ganelon]

Robert E. Lee wasn't an American war general, he fought for a traitor nation against the US. Maybe statues of Georgy Zhukov would be appropriate in Russia. How about statues of Zhukov in Eastern Germany, Poland, or any European country that fell to communism, though? Would that be appropriate? Do you think the people would be right in being upset with that?
It would depend a great deal on why they’d be putting up the statues. Obviously with Mao and Stalin it’s tough to argue that it’s not a glorification of communism, but again it depends.

[BananaCucho]

i LITERALLY said there were other groups who weren’t Nazi. How am I defending nazis

You are still beating around the bush about this rally man. How can you in good conscience do that?

The whole rally was a white supremacist rally. It was sold as a white supremacist rally. The entire crowd was filled with people wearing nazi symbols and shouting nazi chants. You are ignoring this completely, putting your fingers in your ears and saying "there were other groups who weren't nazis!" as if showing up to a nazi rally and standing side by side with nazis is somehow okay.

Let's say I am a right winger who does not support nazis. I see a flyer for "Unite the Right". Perfect I think, I show up to this rally to support my fellow right wingers. Uh oh, there's a lot of nazis here. I can tell by all the swastikas and other nazi symbols I see. Do I a) stay cause I'm uniting with the nazis, who I condemn, but they espouse ideals that I espouse therefore I'm fine with standing with them as they shout their nazi shouts, or b) turn around and go home, this is NOT the rally I realized it was?

Anyone standing side by side with a nazi is not condemning nazis and is a nazi themselves as far as anyone is concerned.

[Renegade]

It would depend a great deal on why they’d be putting up the statues. Obviously with Mao and Stalin it’s tough to argue that it’s not a glorification of communism, but again it depends.

The timing of the confederate statues suggests it is a reminder to black people of their oppression at a time when they were fighting for their civil rights.

[BananaCucho]

okay fine but you can see how people might feel offended at being called Nazi defenders I hope

I mean if you defend nazis you're a nazi defender. I don't know what else to tell you man. Maybe instead of taking offense you can maybe stop defending nazis? If you really reject nazi ideals.

[Ganelon]

‘How can you in good conscience’
I don’t understand this moralistic tone. It’s not as if the only people
protesting were the nazis.

[Renegade]

https://www.splcenter.org/20190201/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy


27179

[oops_ur_dead]

It would depend a great deal on why they’d be putting up the statues. Obviously with Mao and Stalin it’s tough to argue that it’s not a glorification of communism, but again it depends.

Oh I agree. The reason they put up the Civil War general statues (in the early 1900s, and during the civil rights movement) was to intimidate black people moving into neighbourhoods and trying to fight for their civil rights.

[yzb25]

Right. How about we put up a statue of Georgi Zhukov? I have absolutely no problem with that. Just not Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Hitler. None of them deserve statues. Generals are completely different , however. It’s really not as if Southern culture is strictly about racism; even back then it wasn’t. I don’t particularly like it myself as it’s a bit backward in my eyes, but hey, if they want to be proud of their history sure. Nobody is exalting the virtues of slavery, apart from the white nationalists. Really nothing wrong with Southern culture, and it’s jot all racist

Sorry I hadn't read the earlier post you already made when I said this. Your perspective is consistent to be fair, I just don't see why we need to pedestalize any Soviet officials lol

Rommel and Zhukov afaik didn't take part in any of their regime's atrocities, but Robert Lee did own slaves, nor did he treat them very well.

https://gyazo.com/053e447ecd0430f2befa3fd3acf85278

[BananaCucho]

‘How can you in good conscience’
I don’t understand this moralistic tone. It’s not as if the only people
protesting were the nazis.

BRO IT WAS A RALLY ORGANIZED BY NAZIS

How hard is it to understand that? Stop beating around that bush and acknowledge that. Stop ignoring the fact that a good person can't attend a nazi rally and stay. Unless you're saying nazis are good people.

[Ganelon]

The timing of the confederate statues suggests it is a reminder to black people of their oppression at a time when they were fighting for their civil rights.
Why didn’t they put you statues of Jefferson Davis then? Or any other confederate leaders ebo specifically believed in White Supremacy

[BananaCucho]

This site sucks, I can't give rep to oops or renae again yet

[BananaCucho]

Why didn’t they put you statues of Jefferson Davis then? Or any other confederate leaders ebo specifically believed in White Supremacy

You are literally taking evidence given to you and discarding it and moving the goal posts here lol

[Renegade]

This site sucks, I can't give rep to oops or renae again yet

GIMME REPPPP

[oops_ur_dead]

Why didn’t they put you statues of Jefferson Davis then?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memorials_to_Jefferson_Davis

[BananaCucho]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memorials_to_Jefferson_Davis

Watch him move the goal posts yet again. Watch.

[Ganelon]

You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group — excuse me, excuse me — I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.

[Ganelon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_memorials_to_Jefferson_Davis
Good, those should probably be taken down.
I can see why one would remove that,
but I can also see why they wouldn’t want to remove a statue of Robert E Lee.
Think about it for a sec. Statues of William the Conqueror, right? He is admired by many in the English speaking world. One thing most people don’t know is that he was ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL. It’s a bad example but my point is, people who put up statues of William the Conqeueror aren’t celebrating that aspect of him, but rather, he is a symbol of cultural height and Englishry. R E Lee is a symbol of patriotism and defending ones homeland, even if he was a slave owner. Do I think slavery s good? No, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to admire a multi-faceted personality like that for some of their virtues.

[BananaCucho]

You have some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group — excuse me, excuse me — I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.





Man you're still not acknowledging who organized this rally. This wasn't a rally organized by some conservative yet anti-nazi groups man. This rally wasn't promoted as such either. And no one at that rally was rejecting the nazis standing side by side with them. I don't get how you can blindly do that. And you're not flat out denying my point either. You're trying to spin it into "this wasn't a nazi rally" without actually saying the words.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHCsSnkXsAIwf9N?format=jpg&name=small

How is this man not booed, hissed at and told to leave by everyone around him? Because they all support him. Because these people belong to white supremacist and white nationalist and nazi groups.

[BananaCucho]

Good, those should probably be taken down.
I can see why one would remove that,
but I can also see why they wouldn’t want to remove a statue of Robert E Lee.
Think about it for a sec. Statues of William the Conqueror, right? He is admired by many in the English speaking world. One thing most people don’t know is that he was ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL. It’s a bad example but my point is, people who put up statues of William the Conqeueror aren’t celebrating that aspect of him, but rather, he is a symbol of cultural height and Englishry. R E Lee is a symbol of patriotism and defending ones homeland, even if he was a slave owner. Do I think slavery s good? No, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to admire a multi-faceted personality like that for some of their virtues.

Told you he'd move the goal posts. He completely ignored the whole timing of the statues going up point that you guys brought by deflecting, and now that the deflection was beat down he's deflecting again.

[oops_ur_dead]

Good, those should probably be taken down.
I can see why one would remove that,
but I can also see why they wouldn’t want to remove a statue of Robert E Lee.
Think about it for a sec. Statues of William the Conqueror, right? He is admired by many in the English speaking world. One thing most people don’t know is that he was ABSOLUTELY BRUTAL. It’s a bad example but my point is, people who put up statues of William the Conqeueror aren’t celebrating that aspect of him, but rather, he is a symbol of cultural height and Englishry. R E Lee is a symbol of patriotism and defending ones homeland, even if he was a slave owner. Do I think slavery s good? No, but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to admire a multi-faceted personality like that for some of their virtues.

How is someone who led a civil war to defend the tradition of keeping slaves a "patriot"? What facet of his personality is to be respected?

[Ganelon]

Man you're still not acknowledging who organized this rally. This wasn't a rally organized by some conservative yet anti-nazi groups man. This rally wasn't promoted as such either. And no one at that rally was rejecting the nazis standing side by side with them. I don't get how you can blindly do that. And you're not flat out denying my point either. You're trying to spin it into "this wasn't a nazi rally" without actually saying the words.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHCsSnkXsAIwf9N?format=jpg&name=small

How is this man not booed, hissed at and told to leave by everyone around him? Because they all support him. Because these people belong to white supremacist and white nationalist and nazi groups.
I’ve honestly gotten extremely salty about this and I think I’ll watch a video of the rally, because I distinctly recall not everyone there being a Nazi.

[Ganelon]

How is someone who led a civil war to defend the tradition of keeping slaves a "patriot"? What facet of his personality is to be respected?
He defended his home state, not slavery.

[oops_ur_dead]

He defended his home state, not slavery.

He fought for the Confederacy, which was a state founded to uphold the right for people to own slaves. Which makes him a defender of slavery.

[BananaCucho]

I’ve honestly gotten extremely salty about this and I think I’ll watch a video of the rally, because I distinctly recall not everyone there being a Nazi.

Yes do your research on who organized the rally and what went down there man. Because I will accept that maybe your view of this rally has been twisted by others who have spun the same talking points as you.

But if you do your research and somehow come back here saying the same things, man I dunno.

[rumox]

How is someone who led a civil war to defend the tradition of keeping slaves a "patriot"? What facet of his personality is to be respected?

Not really the same but in Australia Ned Kelly the bushranger (outlaw) is regarded generally in good favour. A person can do shitty things but still be respected.

[Ganelon]

Eh i just read a little about him. He chastised Southerners for insulting freedmen after the war, but he was against granting blacks voting rights. He’s a complicated figure.

[BananaCucho]

Eh i just read a little about him. He chastised Southerners for insulting freedmen after the war, but he was against granting blacks voting rights. He’s a complicated figure.

.......................

[Ganelon]

Eh i just read a little about him. He chastised Southerners for insulting freedmen after the war, but he was against granting blacks voting rights. He’s a complicated figure.
He apparently also expelled students for insulting blacks. He really is a complex character.

[Ganelon]

.......................
I obviously don’t agree with his stance on voting rights.

[BananaCucho]

I obviously don’t agree with his stance on voting rights.

Let me know once you do your research on Unite the Right

[Ganelon]

Okay I’ve read a little and I guess I was wrong. Actually watched a few videos and uh, yeah they were literally chanting ‘Jews will not replace us’. I think Trump made a mistake by not condemning them properly; he probably assumed as I did that some rallies there weren’t Nazi, though. I sincerely doubt Trump is a white supremacist.

Anyways, with regards to statues, I do think the statues shouldn’t be removed.

[Ganelon]

I would appreciate it though if you didn’t autonatically assume I was some kind of racist though... really none of the things I say are indicative of it. I have quite a few posts around discussing Nazism and eugenics, and I’d argue it’s oretty clear I’m not a nazi.

[BananaCucho]

I would appreciate it though if you didn’t autonatically assume I was some kind of racist though... really none of the things I say are indicative of it. I have quite a few posts around discussing Nazism and eugenics, and I’d argue it’s oretty clear I’m not a nazi.

I never called you a nazi lol, but a nazi defender. Since you're able to go back and realize that the rally was actually a nazi/white supremacist rally (and I'll believe you that you didn't know that) I'll withdraw that statement. I don't want to assume these things about you of course, but as you can now see that rally was fucked up, so when I see someone defending the "good people" at that rally it riles me up.

[BananaCucho]

As far as Trump goes, there's a difference between a rando on the internet and the fucking president. He needs to be held to a higher standard. He's done a piss poor job distancing himself from white supremacy so he can't cry foul when he is labeled as such.

[Ganelon]

Did you guys know League of Legends is owned by the communist party of china

[BananaCucho]

League of Legends is cancer so that wouldn't surprise me

[Frinckles]

I don't want a communist state, I just don't want the rich having such a disproportionate amount of wealth compared to the majority. That is wealth in all forms - money, power, influence, opportunities. The game is glaringly rigged against the majority and attention is always being focused elsewhere, usually towards the ideological conflicts. Both "sides" are guilty of this.

This is smart.

[theoneceko]

ALREADY AT 7 PAGES LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

uVu

[deathworlds]

i'd say it baffles me when I see people that proudly wave the confederate flag declare themselves patriots, but it really doesn't when I consider how uninformed and for lack of a better phrase, fuckin' stupid these people are. As oops said, the confederacy was literally a traitor state that rebelled against the U.S. for the right to keep the institution of slavery. Another comparison would be if a Russian national started waving around the soviet flag and declared themselves a freedom fighter.
People in my state (Washington) wave the Stars & Bars, say somethin' about their heritage or what not, and hang their confederate flags on their trucks. Washington wasn't even a bloody state during the time of the civil war (and if it was it was too underdeveloped and removed from the conflict to have anything to do with it).

[Frinckles]

i'd say it baffles me when I see people that proudly wave the confederate flag declare themselves patriots, but it really doesn't when I consider how uninformed and for lack of a better phrase, fuckin' stupid these people are. As oops said, the confederacy was literally a traitor state that rebelled against U.S. for the right to keep the institution of slavery. Another comparison would be if a Russian national started waving around the soviet flag and declared themselves a freedom fighter.
People in my state (Washington) wave the Stars & Bars, say somethin' about their heritage or what not, and hang their confederate flags on their trucks. Washington wasn't even a bloody state during the time of the civil war (and if it was it was too underdeveloped and removed from the conflict to have anything to do with it).

The Confederacy was never acknowledged by the Union. Also, I'm not sure why anyone in Washington would be hanging Confederate flags anyway. In Texas and other states, it's done mostly to show solidarity between other Southern states.

[oops_ur_dead]

The Confederacy was never acknowledged by the Union. Also, I'm not sure why anyone in Washington would be hanging Confederate flags anyway. In Texas and other states, it's done mostly to show solidarity between other Southern states.

No its done by racist dipshits to show how much they hate blacks lmao

[secondpassing]

Vox is cringe but this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNineSEoxjQ) piece on Tucker Carlson sums up the wool pulling over the eyes the media does. This tactic isn't exclusive to Tucker or FOX. Better for them that we are mad at each other or just generally ignorant to the pressing matters.I like Vox. Quite democratic party leaning though.

[secondpassing]

Did you guys know League of Legends is owned by the communist party of chinaEvery company that wishes to do business in China must pledge to be not against communism.

Many companies are openly state-owned.

Some companies claim to not be state-owned, but the majority of shareholders are of the communist party, which make them effectively state-owned (huawei and xiaomi).

The world is an interconnected web, so one could also correctly claim that the NBA and Blizzard and EA are owned by China.
::
League of Legends was bought by Tencent or something.

[secondpassing]

Anyways this is a bit of a rant but my question is:
What do you feel about the idea that right-wing liberalism has nothing to do with conservatism?
A second question is, why is the media trying to paint right wingers as immoral nazis?

Right-wing liberalism and conservatism are inextricably linked, I mean, it's in the phrase.
As right is:
a grouping or political party favoring conservative views and supporting capitalist economic principles.
(https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/right)

I was trying to find out what exactly you meant by righ-wing liberalism, and it seems like your definition is different than that of other people. Wikipedia puts right-wing liberalism with conservative liberalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_liberalism) but Wikipedia also connects conservative liberalism with religious or philosophy grounding, in which it's supporters believe in man's common goodness as the warrant (warrant: the underlying reason "people" can agree upon) to expand social liberties... but you're not religious nor a philosophy student. Either way, I think most of this site is going to group you into the conservative pile because most of this site is very very liberal. Just don't count me in that group. smileyface

The media paints right wingers as immoral nazis because they want to.

[secondpassing]

Speaking of the fraud known as Jordan Peterson, isn't he paralyzed from an experimental treatment for benzo addiction?

Why didn't he just clean his room rather than pop benzos?

Benzodiazepine Abuse Overview
Benzodiazepines are a type of medication known as tranquilizers. Familiar names include Valium and Xanax. They are some of the most commonly prescribed medications in the United States. Doctors may prescribe a benzodiazepine for the following legitimate medical conditions:

Anxiety
Insomnia
Alcohol withdrawal
Seizure control
Muscle relaxation
Inducing amnesia for uncomfortable procedures
Given before an anesthetic (such as before surgery)

::

I'm sure being attacked on the internet for being a nazi and a troll takes it's toll of those with a strong mental disposition.

[secondpassing]

This is smart.

He's right because many parties are all about upholding the status quo, which makes the US's demo and repub parties both conservative parties. I'm going to give a good guess and say AUS's are the same.

[naz]

The Robert E Lee has nothing to do with that.
Its just a guy on horseback.
The confederacy WAS racist, but these aren’t symbols of racism, theyre symbols of Southern culture. And that isn’t all about racism lol

The flag is also known as the Stainless Banner, and the matter of the person behind its design remains a point of contention. On April 23, 1863, the Savannah Morning News editor William Tappan Thompson, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner, published an editorial championing a design featuring the battle flag on a white background he referred to later as "The White Man's Flag."[6] In explaining the white background, Thompson wrote, "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."[1][2][3][4][7][8][9][10]

literally from wikipedia

it's ALL about racism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

the previous versions had white for white supremacy sdjflsdfsdf then they changed it cuz it looked like a surrender flag

[DJarJar]

we've had countless of these threads now and it's always the same people on the same sides. A person on 1 side might say "oh okay I guess I was wrong about that" and yet in the next thread they are still projecting the same opinion.

Rather than continuing to pointlessly do the one side vs. another thing, I'd like to shift the debate to: How can you actually get anybody on the "other side" to TAKE IN anything you have to say? What can be done to reduce the "us vs. them" mentality that is so rampant?

[Renegade]

we've had countless of these threads now and it's always the same people on the same sides. A person on 1 side might say "oh okay I guess I was wrong about that" and yet in the next thread they are still projecting the same opinion.

Rather than continuing to pointlessly do the one side vs. another thing, I'd like to shift the debate to: How can you actually get anybody on the "other side" to TAKE IN anything you have to say? What can be done to reduce the "us vs. them" mentality that is so rampant?

"Good people on both sides"

[BananaCucho]

we've had countless of these threads now and it's always the same people on the same sides. A person on 1 side might say "oh okay I guess I was wrong about that" and yet in the next thread they are still projecting the same opinion.

Rather than continuing to pointlessly do the one side vs. another thing, I'd like to shift the debate to: How can you actually get anybody on the "other side" to TAKE IN anything you have to say? What can be done to reduce the "us vs. them" mentality that is so rampant?

I don't know. But I know its possible. Some of my staunchly conservative family members that have previously said ridiculous things such as "blacks are the real racists" are now in agreement with BLM and some sort of police reform. And I'll I've ever done in the past is try to counter their arguments with data and sources. Since they never seem to have any lol.

[Frinckles]

No its done by racist dipshits to show how much they hate blacks lmao

I've never reached that conclusion except with the occasional hillbilly in his Tonka Truck smoking meth. Anecdotes aside, I dont see it as an issue. How different is it than Antifa holding a sword and sickle flag? Who id add was a recognized nation. People have respect, animosity and some deep focus to regress to the past -- even if that past was not so great. This is seen in both left and right politics.

I think the focus on the past, racially, politically and hell, globally is what sets us back from creating any real progress that people hope to achieve. I'm aware of the quote, when we don't learn from our past -- yes whatever. But what do we get as a society, anywhere, when we do not get past it and redeem ourselves eventually? If I'm half white and black, does that make me half slave owner? Do I owe half the money in reperations? Do I get half the money, cut it even? Do I have half white privilege? Half white guilt? When does it fucking stop? This is an unwinnable war for everyone.

Its for these reasons that, its - difficult to come to a resolution. Because Racism, amongst others, is a complicated concept.

[Frinckles]

But here's one solution:

Combat the issue directly. Find the foundation of the problem and do your best to eliminate it. Thats it. This is certainly (as to the credit of Rumox) an economical issue. But that's half of the story that perpetuates the media. Because its a problem within our communites that nobody feels warranted enough to talk about. And it should not be.

[Frinckles]

And to elaborate, who am I as a human (or minority) to criticize you on your white priveledge? Why would I make the topic 'white vs everyone else?' That assumes I know every part of how extraordinary lucky (but omitting unlucky) you were and that I cannot attain it. Or rather that these are unattainable by minorities. It's flawed and its a demoralizing beacon. But now, we burn our history and our culture for what? To send a message that won't be recieved? How does this fix the issues of our communities? How does threatening the fabric of our safety of our children, family and friends fix these problems?

[Frinckles]

If you're incapable of some satire, what I'm saying is there are a few racial constructs that I do not believe in. (Also my views do not represent sc2mafia in any way omegalul) But if people wanna bring this up and go half hearted on what the problem of racism is, where it stems from and how we can work together to fix it, the dialogue needs to be open.

[Frinckles]

Mmrpt.

[BananaCucho]

DISCUSSION TAKEOVER

DISCUSSION TAKEOVER

DISCUSSION TAKEOVER

[Frinckles]

DISCUSSION TAKEOVER

DISCUSSION TAKEOVER

DISCUSSION TAKEOVER

[Frinckles]

I've been biding my time tbh

[BananaCucho]

Renegade

[DJarJar]

I’m surprised you agreed with Frinckles. What he said seemed to be akin to an “I don’t see race” type of argument.

“Why do we get caught up in the past”. Because black people were slaves so they naturally had no money or eduction, hence why their descendants are less likely to have money or education.


The past is 100% crucial here, considering the average bigot will use the same statistics I just mentioned to say that black people are stupid and violent.

[DJarJar]

If you wanna be like “well they’re just stupid! I like black people!” You’re hurting more than you’re helping. Just back off at that point.

[DJarJar]

“It’s an economic issue”. Like no. The average black is poorer than the average white, yes. But people inherently fear blacks more than they fear whites. You can’t seriously pretend the whole issue is economic.

The divide was created on purpose after this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_slave_rebellion

Because if you convince poor white people that they’re superior to poor black people, then they can’t team up anymore.

[BananaCucho]

I’m surprised you agreed with Frinckles. What he said seemed to be akin to an “I don’t see race” type of argument.

“Why do we get caught up in the past”. Because black people were slaves so they naturally had no money or eduction, hence why their descendants are less likely to have money or education.


The past is 100% crucial here, considering the average bigot will use the same statistics I just mentioned to say that black people are stupid and violent.

Wait are you talking to me? I certainly didn't agree with Pringles. I'm playin warzone and he was tryna bait a response outta me so I gave him one lol

[rumox]

Economics, socioeconomics whatever.

[BananaCucho]

I’m surprised you agreed with Frinckles. What he said seemed to be akin to an “I don’t see race” type of argument.

“Why do we get caught up in the past”. Because black people were slaves so they naturally had no money or eduction, hence why their descendants are less likely to have money or education.


The past is 100% crucial here, considering the average bigot will use the same statistics I just mentioned to say that black people are stupid and violent.

lol I do love the not so subtle callout tho of a certain someone at the end XD

[DJarJar]

lol I do love the not so subtle callout tho of a certain someone at the end XD

That’s not a callout at all. I see that reasoning all the time.

[DJarJar]

Wait are you talking to me? I certainly didn't agree with Pringles. I'm playin warzone and he was tryna bait a response outta me so I gave him one lol

You tricked me!

[Ganelon]

The flag is also known as the Stainless Banner, and the matter of the person behind its design remains a point of contention. On April 23, 1863, the Savannah Morning News editor William Tappan Thompson, with assistance from William Ross Postell, a Confederate blockade runner, published an editorial championing a design featuring the battle flag on a white background he referred to later as "The White Man's Flag."[6] In explaining the white background, Thompson wrote, "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause."[1][2][3][4][7][8][9][10]

literally from wikipedia

it's ALL about racism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

the previous versions had white for white supremacy sdjflsdfsdf then they changed it cuz it looked like a surrender flag
The civil war wasn’t only about slavery.
Id argue the civil war was a result of the economic differences between the North and the South. The Soutn was mostly agricultural, while the North was more industrialized.

I’d argue that even the Jim Crow laws passed in the South after the war were motivated primarily by resentment and were the South’s way of ‘getting back’ at the freedmen. Kinda comparable to how Hitler and the nazis became hugely popular due to German revanchism and the Great Depression.

i just don’t think an entire people would be so anal about slavery when it was widely seen as immoral if it hadn’t been for the economic aspect. Remember that only 25% of Southern (white) families owned slaves. It wasn’t even a majority of the population. It was mostly the elites who were against, along with bigoted whites.

Hence why I don’t think it’s fair to paint the Confederacy as a primarily racist society. The confederate flag is viewed as a symbol of pride for southerners in much the same way national flags are around the world. Yes, it has been used by white nationalists as well, but they aren’t the only ones who used it, and I’d argue that most people who don’t want the confederate flag removed aren’t nazis.

If you look at the KKK, they have around 5,000 members today. In the ‘20’s they had a whooping 6 MILLION. Btw incidentally 20% of the white male (enfranchised?) population of Indiana were members of the KKK. Wtf happened to Indiana, they weren’t even in the South lol.

[Ganelon]

anyway I agree with Frinckles about the past. We should worry about the present.
Honestly as someone who isn’t in the States I’m actually quite curious how prevalent racism is there, as my suspicion is that it isn’t, but as I obviously don’t live there I can’t aay for sure.
If it’s anything like the Netherlands then it’s probably not particularly racist.
I am not 100% certain about this but I suspect racism is still quite the issue in Germany. I’ve had many bad experiences in Germany with Germans; I’ve only had this twice here in two years lol. It’s really a wonderful country, probably the best in Europe.

Anyway, I do think race is a bit too politicized nowadays and racist is now more or less a buzzword than the media likes to use to paint people they don’t like. Not to say that racists don’t exist, but it’s overused.

Funny how the media never talks about the Klan or about Richard Spencer.

[Ganelon]

I’m surprised you agreed with Frinckles. What he said seemed to be akin to an “I don’t see race” type of argument.

“Why do we get caught up in the past”. Because black people were slaves so they naturally had no money or eduction, hence why their descendants are less likely to have money or education.


The past is 100% crucial here, considering the average bigot will use the same statistics I just mentioned to say that black people are stupid and violent.
So were Asians, Latinos and immigrants.
Many people who first emigrated to the colonies were indentured servants; they were not free.

How do you propose we correct that historic injustice, by the way?

[Ganelon]

And to elaborate, who am I as a human (or minority) to criticize you on your white priveledge? Why would I make the topic 'white vs everyone else?' That assumes I know every part of how extraordinary lucky (but omitting unlucky) you were and that I cannot attain it. Or rather that these are unattainable by minorities. It's flawed and its a demoralizing beacon. But now, we burn our history and our culture for what? To send a message that won't be recieved? How does this fix the issues of our communities? How does threatening the fabric of our safety of our children, family and friends fix these problems?
I actually agree with this so much lol. It’s probably the most sensible thing uttered in this thread.
Playing racial politics is a bad idea, no matter who’s playing it - people on the left or in the right.

[Ganelon]

Anyway I’m also part of a minority, one that btw isn’t well seen. I’ll stand by Frinckles and say, who am I to hate people for their ‘privilege’? I’m poor, lazy and quite resentful, doesn’t mean I want to stay that way lol. I really don’t think this way of thinking helps minorities.

[Ganelon]

This reminds me of the Gender pronoun Canadian law. Man, I’ve thought about it and if I were transgender, I would so hate it.
Second, the thought of having been accepted to university just because of my group affiliation literally makes me shiver. I really hope we’re not pursuing that kind of policy here in the Netherlands.

[SuperJack]

Oh. Are we on the race and gender part now?

[oops_ur_dead]

This reminds me of the Gender pronoun Canadian law. Man, I’ve thought about it and if I were transgender, I would so hate it.
Second, the thought of having been accepted to university just because of my group affiliation literally makes me shiver. I really hope we’re not pursuing that kind of policy here in the Netherlands.

Bro it's time to stop repeating this because it's factually incorrect and makes you look really fucking gullible.

[Ganelon]

My last shtick about myself wasn’t about race, it was about ethnicity, but I think they’re very strongly related to transgender issues as well.

[SuperJack]

My last shtick about myself wasn’t about race, it was about ethnicity, but I think they’re very strongly related to transgender issues as well.

I meant race as in Formula 1. This is a pure example of how my argument is right and how you're always just twisting my words.

[rumox]

I think its a bit disingenuous to say the civil war wasn't only about slavery. Sure some other elements were at play but they are all either directly or indirectly linked to slavery. Who do you think worked the agriculture sectors? Why do you think the south were upset over the northerners (abolitionists) making claims to new territory gains? Why do you think the final nail was the election of Abraham Lincoln?

It's all linked to slavery. The fruits of the labor from slaves, the tradition of owning slaves, the battle to determine the survival of slavery itself.

[Ganelon]

Nice

[oops_ur_dead]

I wonder where Jordan Peterson was when the US supreme court put into law the exact same thing he criticized Canada for doing so in the last week (with a conservative majority btw): https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/15/politics/supreme-court-expanding-gay-rights/index.html

Oh wait, he was in a coma with severe brain damage lmfa0

[SuperJack]

If there is a box of 100 apples.
99 of these apples are poisonous. And will kill you if eaten.
1of these apples are not poisonous. And is safe too eat.

Would you call it a box of poisonous apples?
Would you eat from the Boxes?


Now. Please compare it to politics.

[oops_ur_dead]

wait SHIT, I accidentally posted an article from biased, mainstream media fake-news site CNN.

Here's one from an unbiased, independent fringe news agency: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/supreme-court-rules-gay-workers-protected-from-job-discrimination-in-big-win-for-lgbt-rights

[Ganelon]

I think its a bit disingenuous to say the civil war wasn't only about slavery. Sure some other elements were at play but they are all either directly or indirectly linked to slavery. Who do you think worked the agriculture sectors? Why do you think the south were upset over the northerners (abolitionists) making claims to new territory gains? Why do you think the final nail was the election of Abraham Lincoln?

It's all linked to slavery. The fruits of the labor from slaves, the tradition of owning slaves, the battle to determine the survival of slavery itself.
I see slavery as an economic issue, as well as a social issue. I very much doubt abolitionism would’ve been so staunchly opposed by the south if their economy weren’t centered around it. Don’t forget that slavery used to be legal in the Union, too; I think the issue is that there were many cash crops in the south and that served to discourage industrialization.

Slavery, as a social issue, was also part of it, though remember that Abe Lincoln was against giving blacks the right to vote. He saw them as inferior, and supported the colonization of Liberia by free blacks (off topic but one of the dumbest ideas ever put forward; why send American citizens to fucking africa lol). I don’t want to overstate the moral aspect of it, because I think the North was also pretty immoral, or at least certain elements in the North.

[Ganelon]

If there is a box of 100 apples.
99 of these apples are poisonous. And will kill you if eaten.
1of these apples are not poisonous. And is safe too eat.

Would you call it a box of poisonous apples?
Would you eat from the Boxes?


Now. Please compare it to politics.
I am not sure where this is going but I’d call it a box of poisonous apples, yes.

[SuperJack]

It's a good job that all the states can't just fire you without reason.


Oh...

[Ganelon]

I think there’s a real danger that my last post may be misinterpreted, i DO NOT think that slavery for economic issues is OKAY in the SLIGHTEST. It’s just that, I think the view that slavery was borne solely out of white supremacy isn’t completely true. It absolutely contributed, but it’s not the full story.

[Ganelon]

I think its a bit disingenuous to say the civil war wasn't only about slavery. Sure some other elements were at play but they are all either directly or indirectly linked to slavery. Who do you think worked the agriculture sectors? Why do you think the south were upset over the northerners (abolitionists) making claims to new territory gains? Why do you think the final nail was the election of Abraham Lincoln?

It's all linked to slavery. The fruits of the labor from slaves, the tradition of owning slaves, the battle to determine the survival of slavery itself.
The South was afraid of abolitionism, but my point is slavery isn’t merely a social issue, it is also an economic one. Much like serfdom.

[rumox]

Economical, social, whatever. Slavery was heavily ingrained in every single reason why the south seceded so to say it's wasn't just about slavery is disingenuous because slavery literally encompasses every aspect for why the south seceded.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I think its a bit disingenuous to say the civil war wasn't only about slavery. Sure some other elements were at play but they are all either directly or indirectly linked to slavery. Who do you think worked the agriculture sectors? Why do you think the south were upset over the northerners (abolitionists) making claims to new territory gains? Why do you think the final nail was the election of Abraham Lincoln?

It's all linked to slavery. The fruits of the labor from slaves, the tradition of owning slaves, the battle to determine the survival of slavery itself.

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/primary-sources/declaration-causes-seceding-states

Here's rather clear and direct evidence for anyone who would be contradicting Rumox there lmao

~~

Source for Ganelon about Canadian gender law thingy: http://sds.utoronto.ca/blog/bill-c-16-no-its-not-about-criminalizing-pronoun-misuse/

~~

I love politics, but please keep it nice, everyone. Rules still apply ;)

[Ganelon]

You realize not every southerner felt the same way right? And Abraham Lincoln also said that he believed in the superiority of the white race.
Cant we at least agree that the Confederate flag ISNT strictly racist? Not everyone who waves or likes it is a racist... it is a symbol of southern pride lol. Not just slavery

Just because lots of white nationalists use it DOESNT mean everyone who does or even the majority or a significant plurality are white nationalists. 44% of white southerners are against doing away with the flag. I’m pretty sure 44% of the entire south isn’t racist lol.

[naz]

The civil war wasn’t only about slavery.
Id argue the civil war was a result of the economic differences between the North and the South. The Soutn was mostly agricultural, while the North was more industrialized.

I’d argue that even the Jim Crow laws passed in the South after the war were motivated primarily by resentment and were the South’s way of ‘getting back’ at the freedmen. Kinda comparable to how Hitler and the nazis became hugely popular due to German revanchism and the Great Depression.

i just don’t think an entire people would be so anal about slavery when it was widely seen as immoral if it hadn’t been for the economic aspect. Remember that only 25% of Southern (white) families owned slaves. It wasn’t even a majority of the population. It was mostly the elites who were against, along with bigoted whites.

Hence why I don’t think it’s fair to paint the Confederacy as a primarily racist society. The confederate flag is viewed as a symbol of pride for southerners in much the same way national flags are around the world. Yes, it has been used by white nationalists as well, but they aren’t the only ones who used it, and I’d argue that most people who don’t want the confederate flag removed aren’t nazis.

If you look at the KKK, they have around 5,000 members today. In the ‘20’s they had a whooping 6 MILLION. Btw incidentally 20% of the white male (enfranchised?) population of Indiana were members of the KKK. Wtf happened to Indiana, they weren’t even in the South lol.

Mag. Where do you get your numbers from lmao
& what is this second paragraph lool ofc the Jim Crow laws were passed to keep black people from equality, look at the 13th amendment and prisons its modern day slavery dhsjdns it never ended just took on a new name
in this information day and age I doubt people want their names on a KKK register but I'm curious to know where u got 5000 members from lol

[Ganelon]

Anyways the reason I’m pushing so hard aginst this isn’t because I feel strongly about the civil war per se but rather about the idea that the confederate flag is fundamentally racist. 75% of Trump’s supporters believe the flag is fine and shouldn’t be removed; I don’t think you can make the case that they’re all racist bigots, it just doesn’t add up...

Its a symbol of southern pride, NOT of slavery. Literally ask people in the south and I bet they’ll tell you they’re against slavery and racism, because they’re decent people.

You guys don’t know what true racism is, I’ve had people tell me VERY NASTY things about various minorities in my home country - chiefly abut Jews (and to a lesser extent blacks, altho most people have never seen blacks there except on TV so it’s not an issue).

Can we please STOP with calling everything racist.

[Ganelon]

Mag. Where do you get your numbers from lmao
& what is this second paragraph lool ofc the Jim Crow laws were passed to keep black people from equality, look at the 13th amendment and prisons its modern day slavery dhsjdns it never ended just took on a new name
in this information day and age I doubt people want their names on a KKK register but I'm curious to know where u got 5000 members from lol
I’m suggesting that Jim Crow laws were a way of getting back at the North.

[Ganelon]

Wikipedia, not the most reliable source but whatever.

[rumox]

You realize not every southerner felt the same way right? And Abraham Lincoln also said that he believed in the superiority of the white race.
Cant we at least agree that the Confederate flag ISNT strictly racist? Not everyone who waves or likes it is a racist... it is a symbol of southern pride lol. Not just slavery

Just because lots of white nationalists use it DOESNT mean everyone who does or even the majority or a significant plurality are white nationalists. 44% of white southerners are against doing away with the flag. I’m pretty sure 44% of the entire south isn’t racist lol.

Whether the average person felt the same or not is irrelevant to the point. The core principal of the secession was slavery, there is literally no other way to paint it. The link MM gave shows that each state put incredibly high emphasis on the reason for their secession being for the protection of slavery. My issue wasn't that idiots are using the confederate flag as a national identifier, I don't care about that. My issue was how you were framing the reason of the south's secession. It sounded like you were trying to downplay the deeply rooted and incredibly blatant racist aspect of the secession by saying it "wasn't all about slavery" when it irrefutably was.

Also saying Abraham Lincoln was racist has no weight. It was mid 1800's. Every man and his dog was probably racist.

[BananaCucho]

Anyways the reason I’m pushing so hard aginst this isn’t because I feel strongly about the civil war per se but rather about the idea that the confederate flag is fundamentally racist. 75% of Trump’s supporters believe the flag is fine and shouldn’t be removed; I don’t think you can make the case that they’re all racist bigots, it just doesn’t add up...

Its a symbol of southern pride, NOT of slavery. Literally ask people in the south and I bet they’ll tell you they’re against slavery and racism, because they’re decent people.

You guys don’t know what true racism is, I’ve had people tell me VERY NASTY things about various minorities in my home country - chiefly abut Jews (and to a lesser extent blacks, altho most people have never seen blacks there except on TV so it’s not an issue).

Can we please STOP with calling everything racist.

You cannot say this to anyone. You don't know what any of us have experienced. Especially as someone so detached.

I live in Utah, that is a midwestern state (you wouldn't think racism would be rampant here) yet is filled to the brim with mormons. Mormons, that until 1978 (only 42 years ago!) did not allow black men to receive the priesthood or black families enter the temple. This was a huge. Fucking. Deal. I grew up being taught things like "blacks were less worthy in the pre-existence (life before birth) and therefore were born into black families and for that reason couldn't receive those blessings", or "black skin is the curse of cain", hearing that stuff echo'd over the pulpit and in sunday school as recently as 2007ish. Only in the last few years has the church taken a different stance of "anything racist taught over the pulpit was not actually coming from god, so stop doing it". So many mormons that I know to this day are racist. My dad talks all the time about how in his day "they were always just niggers to us". In the MTC in 2009 (missionary training center) the white missionaries I roomed with (bunch of 19 year olds) would consistently put down a black sister missionary behind her back, laughing about things like how she looked like a monkey as she ate a banana at lunch. One of the leaders of the church (a member of the quorum of the 12 apostles) visited the MTC and told a story about some "big, black men" (putting emphasis on the adjective "black" as something scary) harassed some missionaries when some members stood up for them. Don't know what true racism is? You can't claim that at all.

So yeah. I know a lot of racists.

[naz]

Anyways the reason I’m pushing so hard aginst this isn’t because I feel strongly about the civil war per se but rather about the idea that the confederate flag is fundamentally racist. 75% of Trump’s supporters believe the flag is fine and shouldn’t be removed; I don’t think you can make the case that they’re all racist bigots, it just doesn’t add up...

Its a symbol of southern pride, NOT of slavery. Literally ask people in the south and I bet they’ll tell you they’re against slavery and racism, because they’re decent people.

You guys don’t know what true racism is, I’ve had people tell me VERY NASTY things about various minorities in my home country - chiefly abut Jews (and to a lesser extent blacks, altho most people have never seen blacks there except on TV so it’s not an issue).

Can we please STOP with calling everything racist.

Oh my god I just wrote out a long response and pushed submit and I was logged out and it got ERASED
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH H
Mag, I live in Texas, & you have never even stepped a foot in America, and I cba to type all that fucking shit again omg I'm so annoyed lol
anyway, sure there is probably a small minority of people who use the glag as southern pride, just like there is a small minority of 'gOoD cOpS' but what about thse people Mag
https://twitter.com/sitneaturfood/status/1274904641076105219?s=19

[BananaCucho]

That’s not a callout at all. I see that reasoning all the time.

Yes there's just one particular person here who stands out with these very same viewpoints lol

[Renegade]

My favorite part in all this is when a presumably non person of color comes up with all of these "confed flag isn't racist, I doubt there is racism in america, blah blah" instead of asking and listening to the LIVED EXPERIENCES of actual people of color in the USA.

And even when they are exposed to it (BLM, etc), they soundly reject it.

[BananaCucho]

My favorite part in all this is when a presumably non person of color comes up with all of these "confed flag isn't racist, I doubt there is racism in america, blah blah" instead of asking and listening to the LIVED EXPERIENCES of actual people of color in the USA.

And even when they are exposed to it (BLM, etc), they soundly reject it.

This is why I voted you

...for President :charmander:

[oops_ur_dead]

Just because lots of white nationalists use it DOESNT mean everyone who does or even the majority or a significant plurality are white nationalists. 44% of white southerners are against doing away with the flag. I’m pretty sure 44% of the entire south isn’t racist lol.


75% of Trump’s supporters believe the flag is fine and shouldn’t be removed; I don’t think you can make the case that they’re all racist bigots, it just doesn’t add up...

Let's look at some actual numbers. I really like the midterm results of the Illinois 3rd congressional district.

https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois%27_3rd_Congressional_District

In 2014, a Republican ran for the house in this district and got 35.4% of the vote. In 2016 the district was uncontested. Then, in the 2018 midterms, the Republican nominee was a genuine neo-Nazi. As in, his campaign site talked about how the holocaust was fake. The guy was literally a part of the American Nazi party.

In 2018, he got 25.9% of the vote. He got more absolute votes than the Republican candidate in 2014. That was despite the Republican party actively disavowing him and telling people not to vote for him.

If we assume that the proportion of Dems to Republicans in that district has remained the same, that means that percentage-wise, about 73% of the Republican constituency in that district voted for an actual neo-Nazi. Now you may argue that they might have had reasons such as economic, religious, etc. to vote for him. But surely him being someone who holds rallies commemorating Hitler, supporting reinstating segregation and interracial marriage bans, and saying that Trump is bad because he's a "Jew-loving fool" would give Republican voters pause, right?

Maybe your 44% and 75% numbers aren't too absurd after all?

[Toad]

Can we please STOP with calling everything racist.

Snowflake.

[Ganelon]

You cannot say this to anyone. You don't know what any of us have experienced. Especially as someone so detached.

I live in Utah, that is a midwestern state (you wouldn't think racism would be rampant here) yet is filled to the brim with mormons. Mormons, that until 1978 (only 42 years ago!) did not allow black men to receive the priesthood or black families enter the temple. This was a huge. Fucking. Deal. I grew up being taught things like "blacks were less worthy in the pre-existence (life before birth) and therefore were born into black families and for that reason couldn't receive those blessings", or "black skin is the curse of cain", hearing that stuff echo'd over the pulpit and in sunday school as recently as 2007ish. Only in the last few years has the church taken a different stance of "anything racist taught over the pulpit was not actually coming from god, so stop doing it". So many mormons that I know to this day are racist. My dad talks all the time about how in his day "they were always just niggers to us". In the MTC in 2009 (missionary training center) the white missionaries I roomed with (bunch of 19 year olds) would consistently put down a black sister missionary behind her back, laughing about things like how she looked like a monkey as she ate a banana at lunch. One of the leaders of the church (a member of the quorum of the 12 apostles) visited the MTC and told a story about some "big, black men" (putting emphasis on the adjective "black" as something scary) harassed some missionaries when some members stood up for them. Don't know what true racism is? You can't claim that at all.

So yeah. I know a lot of racists.
I’m sorry you have lol, I don’t mean to downplay that in any way, I just don’t think racism is as big of a problem as it’s usually made out to be. I hope I’m not being insensitive here and I’ll just say what happened to you was wrong, and honestly horrific a major religious organization has essentially been racist for so long and until very recently didn’t allow blacks into their temples. I actually did not know that and it’s sad. The more I hear about Mormons the less and less I like that faith, so I can understand why you left.

Its just, Ive not seen the things you’ve talked about even in more racist countries, or in the Netherlands, which as a whole is almost certainly less tolerant than the US. This is something I haven’t said before but a close family member of mine said something to me before I left that was racist and HILARIOUSLY stupid (about non whites, I believe he was referring to blacks/Muslims specifically), which’s is absurd because he’d literally never seen one in his life. I find people like that ridiculous.

Clearly what yoyee saying shows that racism still exists, but maybe we can agree on that and move elsewhere. How many people do you think are racist? Secondly, given that the Mormon church is so influential in Utah, do you think that might account in part for your experience? I’m just saying, maybe it’s just Mormons.

It was dumb of me to say you didn’t know true racism, I take that back. It’s just, people have said incalculably stupid things to me about race where I’m from, ridiculous racist things that you probably wouldn’t hear in the West, and especially bigoted remarks. If you’re Protestant where I’m from you’re literally seen as the devil.

[Ganelon]

Yes there's just one particular person here who stands out with these very same viewpoints lol
I don’t appreciate this slander and if you have something to say just say it lol. I realize what I say can be pretty offensive, but I’m not racist, I really am not lol. Two of my four-five best friends are not white. I seriously don’t look at skin colour; the only thing that matters to me is if the other person is cool, and my friends are all cool.

But, I realize I may have probably dug a grave for myself that I didn’t intend to, as I’ve said previously the temptation is just to deny everything your opposition says. I am willing to admit racism exists, but I believe the following things:

a) The US, as a whole, is not a racist country. This is evident as the US has arguably done more for racial harmony than most other countries.

b) The white privilege thing isn’t the way to solve current racial issues. I don’t want to be labeled as racist but I mean, look at South Africa. It’s one of the most racist countries in the world. I have friends who lived in RSA and they all informed me blacks and whites generally don’t help each other there; I fear the US is headed down that pathway right now, and that doesn’t help anyone, least of all minorities.

[Ganelon]

Let's look at some actual numbers. I really like the midterm results of the Illinois 3rd congressional district.

https://ballotpedia.org/Illinois%27_3rd_Congressional_District

In 2014, a Republican ran for the house in this district and got 35.4% of the vote. In 2016 the district was uncontested. Then, in the 2018 midterms, the Republican nominee was a genuine neo-Nazi. As in, his campaign site talked about how the holocaust was fake. The guy was literally a part of the American Nazi party.

In 2018, he got 25.9% of the vote. He got more absolute votes than the Republican candidate in 2014. That was despite the Republican party actively disavowing him and telling people not to vote for him.

If we assume that the proportion of Dems to Republicans in that district has remained the same, that means that percentage-wise, about 73% of the Republican constituency in that district voted for an actual neo-Nazi. Now you may argue that they might have had reasons such as economic, religious, etc. to vote for him. But surely him being someone who holds rallies commemorating Hitler, supporting reinstating segregation and interracial marriage bans, and saying that Trump is bad because he's a "Jew-loving fool" would give Republican voters pause, right?

Maybe your 44% and 75% numbers aren't too absurd after all?
As someone who has a very huge problem with antisemitism, among other things, I would definitely not have voted for him. Was he the only republican candidate? How do they decide who gets to run?

[Renegade]

I don’t appreciate this slander and if you have something to say just say it lol. I realize what I say can be pretty offensive, but I’m not racist, I really am not lol. Two of my four-five best friends are not white. I seriously don’t look at skin colour; the only thing that matters to me is if the other person is cool, and my friends are all cool.


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SomeOfMyBestFriendsAreX

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/16/sunday-review/ralph-northam-blackface-friends.html

[Frinckles]

I’m surprised you agreed with Frinckles. What he said seemed to be akin to an “I don’t see race” type of argument.

“Why do we get caught up in the past”. Because black people were slaves so they naturally had no money or eduction, hence why their descendants are less likely to have money or education.


The past is 100% crucial here, considering the average bigot will use the same statistics I just mentioned to say that black people are stupid and violent.

I didn’t explain away the problem with "I don't see race." I made it a point that a lot of concepts brought up in the discussion commonly are at thier core, demoralizing, flawed and polarizing. Talking points that do not remedy the issue from doctors who do not want the patient to get well.


“It’s an economic issue”. Like no. The average black is poorer than the average white, yes. But people inherently fear blacks more than they fear whites. You can’t seriously pretend the whole issue is economic.

The divide was created on purpose after this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_slave_rebellion

Because if you convince poor white people that they’re superior to poor black people, then they can’t team up anymore.

You literally just pointed out in your post before this that it was an economic issue or socioeconomic. That’s established. A 2009 poll showed Blacks make more on average than Hispanics, they make less than Whites who make less than Asians. In fact, this was a trend that Booker T. Washington recognized early on. He argued that sacrificing voting rights and submitting to racism in the short term, for education and Healthcare for Southern Blacks - would position the black community to be be able to finally push for a more comprehensive civil rights act. And they did. What is disingenuous is this trend of portraying civil rights as Black men in chains and then pivoting right up to MLK. If you want to make it about the past, there is far too much in between that's left forgotten. My argument is that overcoming these issues starts at the foundation of Black communities and the rhetoric that mainstream and social media uses to incorrectly portray the topic of race. Antiquated 'white vs X' does not work. It cannot work and it will not work. There is a difference between learning from our past and having an unhealthy obsession with it. It holds you back.

Give sauce on the fear statistic though please. <3

[oops_ur_dead]

As someone who has a very huge problem with antisemitism, among other things, I would definitely not have voted for him. Was he the only republican candidate? How do they decide who gets to run?

He was uncontested in the Republican primaries for that district, and in their defence, lost the nomination quite badly the next year (though he still got 10% of the vote in that nomination, which is worrying if you take that as 10% of Republicans being literal Nazis when given a choice).

I'm not saying that the voters for him are all Nazis of course. Just that roughly 73% of Republicans in that district were at the very least okay with voting in an actual Nazi. Which I don't think is very flattering at all, and I think you'd probably agree with me that voting for a Nazi pretty unambiguously makes you at least a little bit racist.

[rumox]

It's anecdotal for sure (x race is scared/uncomfortable of y race). I've heard it from different people from different races. It's not unique to white people.

[oops_ur_dead]

I didn’t explain away the problem with "I don't see race." I made it a point that a lot of concepts brought up in the discussion commonly are at thier core, demoralizing, flawed and polarizing. Talking points that do not remedy the issue from doctors who do not want the patient to get well.



You literally just pointed out in your post before this that it was an economic issue or socioeconomic. That’s established. A 2009 poll showed Blacks make more on average than Hispanics, they make less than Whites who make less than Asians. In fact, this was a trend that Booker T. Washington recognized early on. He argued that sacrificing voting rights and submitting to racism in the short term, for education and Healthcare for Southern Blacks - would position the black community to be be able to finally push for a more comprehensive civil rights act. And they did. What is disingenuous is this trend of portraying civil rights as Black men in chains and then pivoting right up to MLK. If you want to make it about the past, there is far too much in between that's left forgotten. My argument is that overcoming these issues starts at the foundation of Black communities and the rhetoric that mainstream and social media uses to incorrectly portray the topic of race. Antiquated 'white vs X' does not work. It cannot work and it will not work. There is a difference between learning from our past and having an unhealthy obsession with it. It holds you back.

Give sauce on the fear statistic though please. <3

I don't know about the fear statistic, but here's a couple of surprising ones: Americans (not just white Americans, also black Americans) are more likely to underestimate black people's pain: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048546

This could partially explain why black people are less likely to receive pain medication than white people (medical bias and racism is an important topic that a lot of people forget about btw): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196064400700990

Black people are also more likely to be seen by white people as superhuman. This could partially explain the difference in use of force by police, as they view black people are more physically capable than they really are: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550614553642

[BananaCucho]

I don’t appreciate this slander and if you have something to say just say it lol.

Do you still want to argue the points that ami brought up specifically?


that black people are stupid and violent.

You've argued before these exact points. And then deflect with "higher iq =/= more moral" and shit like that.
It's only slander if you aren't arguing or never argued those points. Do I need to go grab some quotes?


a) The US, as a whole, is not a racist country. This is evident as the US has arguably done more for racial harmony than most other countries.

The US has a long way to go still to combat systemic racism. Yes it has made strides. But here a talented black man can get blacklisted from the NFL for protesting peacefully by kneeling during the national anthem. That's fucked up.

[Frinckles]

It's anecdotal for sure (x race is scared/uncomfortable of y race). I've heard it from different people from different races. It's not unique to white people.

My best friend's mom is terrified of black people and she is an illegal immigrant (Mexican.) Lol
Thats why I wanted the sauce on it.

[Ganelon]

Lol oops thinking about it the last paragraph is actually kinda true, at least for me. I would definitely find e.g. a lanky black guy peculiar. For some reason the stereotype is that they’re stronger.

[BananaCucho]

I’m sorry you have lol, I don’t mean to downplay that in any way, I just don’t think racism is as big of a problem as it’s usually made out to be.

Then start listening. Like I said, you're so detached. You have no idea how things are like here, you just know what you've seen on shows like... Tucker Carlson, ew.


Secondly, given that the Mormon church is so influential in Utah, do you think that might account in part for your experience? I’m just saying, maybe it’s just Mormons.

It's definitely not just mormons. Like I said, I live in the midwest, which usually has a reputation for being more "chill" about these things. In other parts of the country its far worse.

[Ganelon]

Do you still want to argue the points that ami brought up specifically?



You've argued before these exact points. And then deflect with "higher iq =/= more moral" and shit like that.
It's only slander if you aren't arguing or never argued those points. Do I need to go grab some quotes?



The US has a long way to go still to combat systemic racism. Yes it has made strides. But here a talented black man can get blacklisted from the NFL for protesting peacefully by kneeling during the national anthem. That's fucked up.
Blame the study, not me. It was done fairly well too, so it’s tough to argue against. It is also an incredibly dangerous and difficult conversation to have because... well. lol

Id be happy to discuss anything else, apart from that, because that is one HUGE can of worms that really shouldn’t be opened.

[rumox]

I don't know about the fear statistic, but here's a couple of surprising ones: Americans (not just white Americans, also black Americans) are more likely to underestimate black people's pain: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048546

This could partially explain why black people are less likely to receive pain medication than white people (medical bias and racism is an important topic that a lot of people forget about btw): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196064400700990

Black people are also more likely to be seen by white people as superhuman. This could partially explain the difference in use of force by police, as they view black people are more physically capable than they really are: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550614553642

I personally can vouch for seeing black people as superhumans. Their skeletal muscle composition in comparison to everyone else is very superhuman.

[Frinckles]

The US has a long way to go still to combat systemic racism. Yes it has made strides. But here a talented black man can get blacklisted from the NFL for protesting peacefully by kneeling during the national anthem. That's fucked up.

Systemic Racism PogChamp

What exactly is systemic racism to you?

[BananaCucho]

Blame the study, not me. It was done fairly well too, so it’s tough to argue against. It is also an incredibly dangerous and difficult conversation to have because... well. lol

Id be happy to discuss anything else, apart from that, because that is one HUGE can of worms that really shouldn’t be opened.

...you were given sources pointing out the controversies surrounding the study.

Either way we don't have to get back into that again. But as you see, there's no slander here.

[BananaCucho]

Systemic Racism PogChamp

What exactly is systemic racism to you?

"To you", what's the point of this question? Do you disagree with systemic racism existing? Or are you just trying to quiz me here?

[rumox]

I was watching some YouTube channel (OxfordUnion??? idk something pretentious like that) and they talked specifically about systemic racism. The room is divided left and right with people that agree and disagree with the topic of the day, and they speak. Really great listen I'll try and find it.

[rumox]

Yup



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv7hsiUirUU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGpdVvn19eI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80xr5btjmDY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM868CR0Mw4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4TIU0Ucxig

[naz]

Blame the study, not me. It was done fairly well too, so it’s tough to argue against. It is also an incredibly dangerous and difficult conversation to have because... well. lol

Id be happy to discuss anything else, apart from that, because that is one HUGE can of worms that really shouldn’t be opened.

sweaty nooo,,ur opening the cans why not open all of them

[Frinckles]

"To you", what's the point of this question? Do you disagree with systemic racism existing? Or are you just trying to quiz me here?

I disagree with it yes. But I was curious what you thought of the concept and how it relates to a black man taking a knee.

[Frinckles]

I don't know about the fear statistic, but here's a couple of surprising ones: Americans (not just white Americans, also black Americans) are more likely to underestimate black people's pain: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0048546

This could partially explain why black people are less likely to receive pain medication than white people (medical bias and racism is an important topic that a lot of people forget about btw): https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0196064400700990

Black people are also more likely to be seen by white people as superhuman. This could partially explain the difference in use of force by police, as they view black people are more physically capable than they really are: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1948550614553642

Those studies are bizarre but interesting. Much of this looks like general stereotypes.

[Frinckles]

I was watching some YouTube channel (OxfordUnion??? idk something pretentious like that) and they talked specifically about systemic racism. The room is divided left and right with people that agree and disagree with the topic of the day, and they speak. Really great listen I'll try and find it.

I watched all of those yesterday incidentally. David Webb is fantastic.

[BananaCucho]

I disagree with it yes. But I was curious what you thought of the concept and how it relates to a black man taking a knee.

Okay, so you're trying to quiz me lol.

[rumox]

Yeah David Webb's speech resonated with me the most. Well spoken.

[Frinckles]

Yeah David Webb's speech resonated with me the most. Well spoken.

Here's a related one as well I enjoyed.


https://youtu.be/oi0jN-y6vfY

[rumox]

Oh my god. That is incredibly hilarious and sad

[Frinckles]

Okay, so you're trying to quiz me lol.

The cliché that I'm always up to somethings is greatly exaggerated.

I'm simply asking how you're tying the two together. Systemic Racism broadly explains away the shortcomings of communities of color and frames the world as against you at every level. It pushes you down. Systemic Racism is a boogie-man with no face because it is not tangible. Police brutality is tangible. Police brutality has a face. Thats my point.

Also he totally got a confidential settlement and is fine with it.

[Frinckles]

Oh my god. That is incredibly hilarious and sad

It's fucking gold.

[Frinckles]

The cliché that I'm always up to somethings is greatly exaggerated.

I'm simply asking how you're tying the two together. Systemic Racism broadly explains away the shortcomings of communities of color and frames the world as against you at every level. It pushes you down. Systemic Racism is a boogie-man with no face because it is not tangible. Police brutality is tangible. Police brutality has a face. Thats my point.

Also he totally got a confidential settlement and is fine with it.

And in the same vein, what else is tangible? Black communities living impoverished paying taxes to public schools who get less than white schools is not an issue of white privilege or Systemic Racism. It is an issue of economics. It is an issue of black children growing up without a father. Hell, one of the best platforms that the BLM movement has is the desire to help children in these situations grow up with communal guidance. To find an alternative to the nuclear family because it has become more and more uncommon. This is another complicated issue, but people do not talk about it. People don't feel warrant or authority to talk about it. A child's failures are left up to this wistless idea that they were destined to fail. That is wrong, and its what we're teaching them.

[Frinckles]

Damn I always wanted to use an archaic word in a sentence.

[BananaCucho]

The cliché that I'm always up to somethings is greatly exaggerated.

I'm simply asking how you're tying the two together. Systemic Racism broadly explains away the shortcomings of communities of color and frames the world as against you at every level. It pushes you down. Systemic Racism is a boogie-man with no face because it is not tangible. Police brutality is tangible. Police brutality has a face. Thats my point.

Also he totally got a confidential settlement and is fine with it.

Kaepernick was blackballed from the league for protesting systemic racism. Teams like my favorite team (the Steelers) played fucking "Duck" Hodges over taking a chance on Kaep. Fucking Duck Hodges. It was bad.

That would have not happened to a talented white player protesting "gun rights" or whatever.

[Frinckles]

Kaepernick was blackballed from the league for protesting systemic racism. Teams like my favorite team (the Steelers) played fucking "Duck" Hodges over taking a chance on Kaep. Fucking Duck Hodges. It was bad.

That would have not happened to a talented white player protesting "gun rights" or whatever.

Protesting police brutality is fine. That is the name of the issue.

Your second example does not make sense, by the way. Perhaps you could phrase it, "would this happen to a talented white player protesting police brutality?"

[BananaCucho]

Protesting police brutality is fine. That is the name of the issue.

Your second example does not make sense, by the way. Perhaps you could phrase it, "would this happen to a talented white player protesting police brutality?"

Sure, if I wanted to ask a rhetorical question.

[rumox]

Personally I think it's more brand protection than systemic racism. When it comes to the commercial world it all comes down to protecting that $, hence why no other team took him on. I haven't read much into the situation so I won't pretend I am an expert, that's just my face value interpretation.

[Frinckles]

Sure, if I wanted to ask a rhetorical question.

So you don't think the response from the NFL would be the same? I just dont see the point in comparing apples to oranges that don't exist in your question.

[BananaCucho]

So you don't think the response from the NFL would be the same? I just dont see the point in comparing apples to oranges that don't exist in your question.

No, it would not be the same.

[Frinckles]

Personally I think it's more brand protection than systemic racism. When it comes to the commercial world it all comes down to protecting that $, hence why no other team took him on. I haven't read much into the situation so I won't pretend I am an expert, that's just my face value interpretation.

This is exactly why he got a tasty confidential settlement. Similar things have happened in the NBA.

[BananaCucho]

I do like that Pringles has stopped lurking and started playing btw

[naz]

I do like that Pringles has stopped lurking and started playing btw

rage quit rage quit rage quit!!

lol the settlement wasn't that tasty? less than 10 mil, split btwn another player, and heaps of lawyer fees(they take a fuckton) & the end of his career. dont football players make way more than that in a year? unless u have more tea sprinkles👀

[BananaCucho]

rage quit rage quit rage quit!!

lol the settlement wasn't that tasty? less than 10 mil, split btwn another player, and heaps of lawyer fees(they take a fuckton) & the end of his career. dont football players make way more than that in a year? unless u have more tea sprinkles

If you're a star, yes. For example, Kaep, who was a star, signed a six-year contract extension with the 49ers, worth up to $126 million, including $54 million in potential guarantees, and $13 million fully guaranteed back in 2014. He didn't get all of that since he opted out of his contract in 2017 to become a free agent. But yeah, QB's make a lot if they are good.

[naz]

I dunno. I thought it was really dumb people freaked out over him respectfully taking a knee, when people break the US Flag Code on the reg:

(d)The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.

(i)The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

(j)No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.

😭

also football is dumb, can we bring back the gladiators

[BananaCucho]

also football is dumb,

We are not friends anymore. You have crossed a line and said something you can't take back.

[SuperJack]

We are onto sports now? Cool.

FIFA is corrupt.

Football starts are overpaid.

[SuperJack]

We are not friends anymore. You have crossed a line and said something you can't take back.

Football is dumb. Whatever your sport that you incorrectly call football is dumber. Isn't it basically the pussy version of rugby?

[BananaCucho]

We are onto sports now? Cool.

FIFA is corrupt.

Football starts are overpaid.

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/customavatars/avatar8508_20.gif

[BananaCucho]

Football is dumb. Whatever your sport that you incorrectly call football is dumber. Isn't it basically the pussy version of rugby?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691762996036370545/709799933812670515/avatar8508_19.png

[Frinckles]

I do like that Pringles has stopped lurking and started playing btw

I'm at work moving everything into boxes because our office is moving. :P despite the fact that we will be working from home anyway.

[oops_ur_dead]

I agree, football is incredibly cringe.

[naz]

We are not friends anymore. You have crossed a line and said something you can't take back.

omg I'm one more friend loss from permaban nooOOIOKodhdbsnmsxn pls take it back im on thin ice

Also I'm wheezing at u posting SJ's avatars who are these ugly men I thought it was Walter white djdbsmsm

[Ganelon]

Snooker and golf are best sports don’t change my mind

[SuperJack]

omg I'm one more friend loss from permaban nooOOIOKodhdbsnmsxn pls take it back im on thin ice

Also I'm wheezing at u posting SJ's avatars who are these ugly men I thought it was Walter white djdbsmsm

Wow you have a poor taste in men.

[naz]

Wow you have a poor taste in men.

:sad:

i know............

:sad::sad::sad:

i get roasted enough on this pls

[Frinckles]

Absolutely derailed.

[rumox]

Cunts fucked

[naz]

Absolutely derailed.

who are they!!!!!! blame banana