Kenny
December 28th, 2011, 10:31 AM
Start discussing who you want to target with your various abilities tonight.
I know a number of you have suggested targets for killing tonight, but I intend to target somebody well and truly off the radar. I don't want our killer running into anybody unexpected tonight and needlessly endangering themselves.
eg. running into a lookout, spree killer, doctor's heal, or even a busdriver who manages to swap our target with one of us/a citizen or neutral. From Day 1 I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to reliably discern worthy power role targets amongst the active players. On the other hand, I do think we've got a chance of finding one amongst the quieter players. With this in mind, I may choose the target myself.
I want to hear the most debate on subjects for the Consigliere and Drug dealing.
I still think the Lawyer is a good killer for tonight, and I can take over his job tomorrow night. I'm also open to using the 2nd Drug dealer instead for the killer if you guys still don't want to use both of them tonight.
Nobody's should go anywhere near Cartman. It's a guaranteed suicide mission.
Clyde, I'm curious who you're going to vote for in the election? I know you've stated you don't want to be elected in the daychat so that may excuse you if you don't vote for yourself, but on the other hand I wonder if it will make people question themselves as to why you didn't want to be Mayor. It's upto you of course what to do, but I am curious what your plan is.
Clyde also suggested we vote for Al and it's a good idea. Possibly 1/2 of us should vote for McDaniels (assuming he becomes a candidate) as well to hide our tracks.
Going near Cartman is NOT a guaranteed suicide mission. I can practically guarantee that Big Gay Al will be the subject of the spree killer's attention. Cartman on the other hand is going to be the subject of one person: the jailor and as far as I know, the spree killer's attack wouldn't affect the jailor since he kidnaps Cartman at the start of the night. And no one else is going to attack Cartman because they know he's getting jailed, which means a lookout probably won't be watching him because they won't know they won't be seeing anything. And if a lookout does see me visit Cartman at night for some inexplicable reason, I'll just explain that I'm an investigator trying to verify Cartman's claim. Which is what I'm doing anyway.
If Cartman is a lover, then I'll tell you in our secret chat and then you can take him out and merge to win the game after my death. If he's telling the truth we're pretty fucked anyway once he reveals everybody, so it's probably best to get that information now. Especially if Cartman makes a deal to not out everyone in the town (i.e make it look like he was lying) but then the jailor secretly kills off the mafia members each night with his now complete list.
I want you to seriously consider that possibility. Because without any investigative evidence, we'd have no choice but to believe Cartman was bsing during the day. And the only people that would know that he wasn't would be his own team, who can't kill him anyway. Finding out whether or not he is 100% a lover is incredibly important to set the tone of the rest of this game. I agree we shouldn't kill him tonight, but investigating him is an absolute must.
In terms of using a killer it's probably best to use the lawyer since it's not useful to us at all tonight and it can't really mess people up too much in this game anyway since their roles show up in the graveyard and they can change their will each night anyway. Whether or not you guys want to use both drug dealers is up to you but personally I don't see a reason not to. It would require a lot of town roles to claim in order to reveal any possible double ups before they came to the drug dealer conclusion.
You can kill whoever you want, though I'd suggest someone like Shelley. They seem like they're pretty good, and their frustration with the day 1 events means they're some kind of town role. Plus they didn't really make any friends in the day chat so I doubt they'll be the focus of anyone else's attention.
I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm going to try and convince you to change your mind.
Think about what we have to gain from investigating Cartman:
1. We learn he fits into the Lover category. If this is the case and he's telling the jailor everything then you're right gg and there's nothing we can do anyhow.
2. He's not a Lover, which means he's fucking with people, which means he's helping us, which means he's not our concern.
The jailor can only kill at night when there has been no lynch during the day. After day 1 this is unlikely to occur again. This means that the Jailor has to reveal his information publicly in order to bring about a death.
Even if Cartman does fit into the Lover investigation category any doc, subsequent jail, bodyguard, etc could prevent us from successfully killing him.
Lastly, even if you do investigate him, the best you can hope for is Godfather/ Citizen/ Lover category, which only proves that he fits into the largest investigation category in the game not that he is in fact a Lover. It's actually a genius citizen play because it draws a hell of a lot of mafia attention to a meatshield Town role.
If I was a Spree Killer I would visit Cartman even despite the jailor's prisoner immunity. The people who are most likely to be visiting Cartman are investigative roles (like yourself). These are the people the Spree Killer wants dead first because they're the people who can find him. Cartman also represents the single player most likely to garner attention tonight. I agree Al is likely to be visited by players too, but the Spree Killer could act either way.
Okay, let's run through the two scenarios. Again.
If Cartman is NOT a lover
1) Then he's not a town, since he's creating confusion and wasting the jailor's ability for a night, and drawing the spotlight on himself instead of possible scum
2) He's also psychic, since he was right when, at the time, he said that one of the 3 people running for mayor (me, Big Gay Al, Tweek) was scum.
3) Since he's not town, we can conclude he's not the citizen if the cit/gf/lover result comes up.
4) Following the logic of #3, then we would be able to conclude that he's the GF of the other team. So we would find and remove the GF of the enemy mafia. And this... is a bad thing?
5) If he does not come up as a lover, and we have confirmation that his findings are just ramblings trying to gain attention, we know to ignore him for the rest of the game, but the rest of town won't. They'll still be hanging on to his every word like it's the gospel, while we strategize our next move freely. Or we're going to spend every night going through this same argument as Cartman continues to feed the town and jailor information, and we'll have no idea whether or not we're completely fucked.
If Cartman IS a lover
1) Then we'll know that he is our top priority tomorrow night.
2) Once we kill him, the traitor in our own mafia will commit suicide.
3) We'll get a shit load of people on our team. I know you guys disagree with having a team of, what, 8 mafia over a team of 5, but I still find it preferable.
4) We'll stop Cartman from revealing any more night actions. It's bad enough that he revealed the other team's roles, since we're operating under the fact that he's telling the truth in this section. The last thing we need is for him to reveal the night actions of both teams, ours and theirs, every night.
5) We're probably fucked anyway, might as well know it so I don't waste time trying to BS a day chat that has us all pegged.
If I was a spree killer I would visit Big Gay Al or Tweek, as both were accused of being scum, and are both in the running for mayor, with Big Gay Al the clear winner. One of them is likely to be checked tonight by the investigator(s) and healed and bodyguarded, etc. If the spree killer goes for one of them he'll be guaranteed several kills. Going for Cartman will net him what? Maybe one or two investigators. I think you're more paranoid about Cartman being the target of the spree killer because you know I'm going to go there. The Spree Killer does not know this.
And don't forget that no lynch days are pretty easy in a setup with this many people. Look how hard it was to get lynches off last FM, it was like pulling teeth regardless of the target. When there's so many people in a setup, and a considerable portion lurkers, it's hard to get a large majority as compared to a smaller game.
The last FM was retarded. In every other FM there is a lynch every day.
I don't know you're going to visit him because I can order you to go where I decide.
The insinuation has been not that Cartman would reveal our actions but rather that he would reveal our roles. Is this true? If so then it only takes one night. eg. tonight for us to be fucked.
If he is Lover then what's to stop the Jailor just jailiing him again tomorrow night and rendering him immune from our attacks?
How does killing a Lover help us when all of our identities have already been revealed?
You think that he can't be a Citizen? Wasting a jailor's abilities for a night is an excellent trade-off for diverting the mafia's attentions. Additionally he gets to confer with the jailor and discuss who knows what.
Clyde and I have already come to the conclusion that Cartman is not the Lover, which following our reasoning means we're simply investigating a likely neutral, which will help us little.
You feel as though you are compelled to visit Cartman which makes Cartman a perfect target for the Spree Killer because of the high chance he hits a consigliere. He wants to hit a consigliere especially because if his identity is revealed to the mafia it is guaranteed he will not surive to the end which he needs to do to win. I assume town investigators will be smarter than to be visiting any of the mayor candidates. For one, they make excellent targets for the framer, and two finding out what the mayor may be is relatively unimportant at this stage of the game. A mayor even in evil hands is not an enormous threat to the Town just yet.
Ike, your post just made me think of something...
We've been racking our brains for roles Cartman could be aside from Masochist, Lover, and regular Shark, and so far have come up with nothing. What if Cartman really IS a Citizen? He makes a lot of noise by pretending to be a Lover, gets targeted by BOTH mafia teams in some way (either through killing or investigation), and is pretty much a shoe-in for a Spree Killer targeting. Boom; instant 2-3 mafia kills, possibly more if more scum target him. In the meantime, he's invulnerable in jail, and thus can't take any real damage from the ploy.
Anyways, we should stay away from Cartman and Al, imo.
No offense, Butters, but it seems like most of the town ALREADY has you pegged for scum. No one is going to believe an Invest claim from you after today. Your campaign for Mayor made too many people mistrust you.
I feel like we've been over this. Early merge = bad for us, not winning.
As Ike pointed out, it would be far from 100%. With 2 GFs, 11 Citizens, and 2 Lovers (15/36), we would know with roughly 42% certainty.
I agree on the Lawyer for the kill tonight. As for the Drug Dealers, at least one of us should act. However, I don't think we both should. Kyle has a lower profile than I do, so I think it should be him rather than me. As for targets, not sure about that.
I agree that Shelley might be a good choice for a kill.
As for voting, I plan to vote for Big Gay Al. We should do a 3/2 split between Big Gay Al and McDaniels, or a 3/1/1 between Al, McDaniels, and myself, whichever you guys prefer. The bigger the spread, the less likely we will be seen as a unified group. With Al, enough people expressed support that it won't be too surprising if he wins by a significant lead.
If people question why I didn't vote for myself, I have two reasons in mind; input would be nice. First, I could simply say that I didn't realize it was an option, and that I thought we HAD to vote for someone other than ourselves. Second, I could again reiterate that I never wanted to be elected Mayor, and that I thought Big Gay Al would do a better job scumhunting than I would. What do you guys think?
Finally, Ike, I was just wondering... who is your Ventriloquist smurf? I was trying to figure it out during the daytime, but for the life of me couldn't. It might help us to know something like that.
I understand that you and Clyde have come to the conclusion that Cartman is lying, but I have not. For one, look at Kyle. He tried to divert our attention away from Cartman and then when I called him out as the lover he stopped speaking entirely here. Maybe he's just AFK or maybe he knows we found him out. If Cartman is the lover and he gets jailed twice in a row, then yeah we're fucked. But that's something entirely out of our control at that point. I mean do you opt to not do anything when you find a sheriff out of fear the jailor will jail him to protect him at night? Frankly, I've never seen that strategy used but it is a possibility. I personally think that given the information we have at hand we should investigate Cartman to find out what exactly is going on so we can be better informed about our next move.
Knowledge is power, especially for the mafia, and if we're expected to play to our best abilities then we can't be making strategies with a giant question mark on the field. It's like playing chess where you don't know whether that's a queen or a pawn next to your king. You're probably fucked if it's a queen, but it's better to know and adapt than assume it's a pawn and get fucked.
I didn't know you had final say on our targets, so you're right then, you make the call, not me. So what the fuck am I even doing arguing with you at this point if you're just going to overrule my decision. I get that you already have one smurf but if you want two that's fine, override my decision and do whatever you want to do despite my input. I just assumed, incorrectly I guess, that when we picked our roles we were doing so to play to our strengths. Apparently you could've random.org'd them though for all you care.
And Clyde, I just saw your post. Now you're telling me that investigating Cartman is a bad idea, when in the "Cartman Problem" you agreed that I should investigate Cartman tonight. I'm confused.
Butters, I'm going to go through your last post bit-by-bit so we can maybe finally see eye-to-eye. What this team DOESN'T need is strife; we all need to get on the same page here. :|
Yeah, because NO town roles are supposed to draw the spotlight onto themselves rather than onto other, more powerful town roles... EXCEPT CITIZEN, which comprises of more than half of the town.
And yet I'm fairly convinced that either Al or Tweek is scum. It's not really that tough to guess - I mean, the MAJORITY of the town guessed that you were scum LONG before Cartman spoke up. :|
See above.
See above.
If he's the GF, we would have no way of knowing for sure. Beyond that, TOWN would have no way of distinguishing himself from a Lover, which would mean the Sharks have effectively gotten into bed with the town. But we could never know for sure based on your result, which means we would only speculate and argue (like we're doing now) more, wasting precious time and energy (like we're doing now).
Then again, if we wait until tomorrow, I can ask him to provide the list of roles for the Mafia that he didn't already give (e.g. us) and we'll know if he's lying or not for sure (whereas your method would leave a margin of error of more than 50%). In fact, my way of finding out his real identity is a hell of a lot more precise than yours, and frees you up to check someone else. Funny how that works out, isn't it?
Tomorrow night, when he gets BG'd, healed, jailed again, Spree Killer targeted, etc.? You mean that tomorrow night? If he really IS the Lover, he's untouchable for the rest of the game, until town is dead and can't protect him.
Thus reducing the total Mafia KPN and quadrupling the amount of people we have to kill.
Yeah, a team of 8 mafia versus a team of 20 town + neutrals, with only 1 kill per night. Sounds like a great way to lose.
Not really any way we can stop him if he's dead (and thus proven to be a Lover, and thus correct). If he dies, the Jailor will reveal all of our names. We will all be lynched or killed. Game over.
If he's alive, we can slowly work to tarnish his reputation, sow doubt in the minds of the town about his claims, and discredit him. And he will have no way of proving us wrong, because if we're subtle enough, he won't be able to tell town who to lynch without risking a modkill and loss.
Yeah, that way we could all just reveal and game-throw instead of playing out the game. Great idea. :|
The Spree Killer doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the Mafia team that Cartman doesn't belong to will want to know for damn sure whether or not he is actually a Lover, as will the town.
Frankly, we don't KNOW who the Spree Killer will target. There is a list of probable targets, and Cartman is pretty high up on it, along with Big Gay Al and Tweek. All the more reason to not target ANYONE on that list.
Are we on the same page now? Or do we need to keep arguing about this for the rest of night chat, and not have a chance to strategize? Because this shit is setting us back. :|
And yet, Kyle isn't in here sowing mistrust and confusion.
I'm not going to speculate on our Lover until we have information. We won't have that until tomorrow.
However, there is one good candidate in my mind - someone who doesn't seem to be working in the group's best interests. :|
No, I opt to find and kill the jailor. Christ. Have you played Mafia before?
Why don't we just put it to a vote? If you lose the vote, please shut up about it.
Bad metaphors aren't going to help us pick night targets.
Apparently, night 1 was my night to be butthurt over Ike's decision making. Night 2 is yours. Get over it and be a team player.
It's called a rapidly changing situation. I hadn't thought of the possibility that Cartman is a Citizen doing all of this SOLELY to get targeted by a Spree Killer and wipe out the Mafia and scum. Since that is a possibility, I think we should avoid visiting him. Again, we will know 100% whether or not he is a Lover tomorrow when I ask him what the roles are for the Mafia that he's not a part of. Checking him tonight when we will know for sure tomorrow is a stupid idea and a waste of time. Get over it.
Alright yeah, like I said I have no control over the situation so pick whatever you guys think is best. I have submitted my opinion and there's no point in arguing about it anymore. So you two can do what you want and I won't say another word about it. :|
Edit: Wow, I like how when you got pissy and threatened to quit I didn't give a dick attitude to you, I told you to relax and stick with us. Interesting how when I'm of the dissenting opinion your attitude changes quite drastically. I thought that discussing strategies was an important part of this night chat. I've always found conflicting viewpoints to be an important part of forming strategies, because it forces you to fix holes in your own when you defend it. Apparently you want us all to just be 'yes men' though? Alright, I'm shutting up now.
It hasn't changed; I'm still getting pissy. Only this time, I don't have booze to calm me down.
I don't want blind agreement. You're just using the same arguments that you've been using since Cartman revealed to push for us to spend time on him. I don't understand why you are pushing for this SO HARD, and it feels like we're going in circles, repeating endlessly. If you could make me understand why you want us to spend time on Cartman so much, I wouldn't be getting annoyed by it. But you just keep coming back to the same arguments, which will keep getting the same response from everyone else.
I have a few ideas as to why someone might do this. None of those ideas are good for my opinion of how we should handle your suggestions.
You can think what you want, but I'm not the lover if that's what you're trying to hint at. I'm just outspoken and that can be frustrating, as you of all people should know.
I'm done talking about Cartman, your plan sounds good, so what else would you like to talk about tonight? We've agreed that Shelley could be a good target. We can't do anything about any of the big three targets (Big Gay Al, Tweek, McDaniels). Is there any one else you think we should put our attention towards? Personally, it seems like most people are just letting them do all the talking while they sit back and spout random nonsense (like Jimbo and Gerald which is a funny coincidence since they voted for me, given the way this night chat has been going).
I'm fine with investigating Jimmy since he seems like another mid-level player between the ramblers and the town leaders.
I'm glad you bring up Jimmy, because I'd nearly forgotten. I'd be VERY interested to know what Jimmy is. His comments are few and far between, tend to not really contribute anything, and are often humorous. Lots of active lurking with that one.
I don't know what to do with Jimbo either. Though Gerald, I'm convinced, is flat out retarded.
Also, I wouldn't mind getting a solid read on McDaniels TOMORROW night. He seems to get lots of support in bursts, usually when another candidate gets questioned. There might have been some team-play going on with that. Not sure.
Oh and wtf is up with Wendy? If we don't investigate Jimmy I feel like Wendy should be the alternate. Her actions in the day chat confused the hell out of me and I have no idea what her alignment is now.
The question is... Is Muso really a gaylord?
lol.
Muso... what a fag.
So...
I have been invited to have coffee with "Doc" and Cartman.
Guys, guys, I feel like we're falling apart at the seams.
This is why us girls have to work so hard puttin' up with you guys' oversensitive pride. No more jabbing, okay? Girls can be pretty evil sometimes, and you don't want to face the wrath of Sumi. It involves soap and chainsaws.
Just a few things I'd like to address:
1. Though I don't mind being sent out to kill since my last will editing is probably not useful tonight, I don't understand why we don't send the smurf to kill every night till it gets killed lol. Sure, the smurf may come in handy occasionally. Though the chance of someone following me is almost zero, the chance is still there, and why jeopardize a regular player over a smurf is the question I'm wondering, since after tonight, we're assuming we're sending drug dealers to kill right?
2. I've actually not paid a whole lot of attention to Jimmy lol. I'll have to go back and read his posts.
3. There is a chance Doc is Al. Clyde is the one he trusts most, and he'll want to hear Cartman's explanation, of course. Clyde, are you able to talk to us and talk to them at the same time? Or are you chat-blocked? (Which I guess if you are you won't be able to answer this.) So... CLYDE WHERE ARE YOU. HOLLER IF YOU NEED HEEEEEELP!
I can talk in both chats at once. Doc has asked me to role-claim. Cartman claims to not actually be a Lover, and that it's an elaborate ploy to oust the Mafia. However, he refused to say this until he knew who the other person in Coffee chat was. He reveals to claim his "real" role because he doesn't trust me enough, even though he voted for me. I might also refuse to reveal until he does, but that might make me appear scummy. I don't want Cartman to turn around and reveal everything I say to the town. Advice? I can post excerpts if necessary and allowed. False?
Ah, of course, Cartman isn't lover after all. Be at ease, Waaagh. :)
If you're allowed, I suggest posting everything they're saying so we can get an idea.
1. Are we even allowed to send the Smurf to kill? I didn't think the Smurf was capable of carrying out night actions.
2. I'm sure you know it already but be very careful, Clyde. You can trust the Architect because he is proven Town so I'd try to follow him as much as possible. Maybe illustrate your fears this whole thing could be an elaborate non-lover Mafia ploy. See how Doc feels about the idea and if he wants a role-claim give it to him without hesitation. Just do whatever you have to do to get out of this without a scum finger pointed at you.
After you claim Enchantress they may expect proof in subsequent days/nights by recommending a target. We may be able to kill that target the night after and alter their will to suit your story.
Maybe start a new thread and copy all the messages across as well.
Somehow I missed reading this message before.
My Smurf alter-ego is Barbrady.
No.
Oh. Dang it. I thought when I read on Ventriloquist's role card that "has no night actions, but may perform kills" that it meant the Vent could send the smurf to kill...
Well nevermind then.
I see from the official order of operations that lookout comes before kills. Would that mean the lookout only sees the people whose actions preceded the lookout (thus he would never see drug dealers)? If someone from our Mafia went to kill someone, would the lookout find out the people who visited the dead person while he was alive, aka the Mafia member and possibly other people?
If you want to Clyde, you could claim investigator and then I could just feed you the information from my results. It might keep you alive in the long run, and it would mean the Doc and Cartman would "protect" you from accusations in the day chat. I dunno, something to think about. What's your good side investigation result again? Is it something BS-able? If not, invest might be the way to go.
Enchantress.
In that case it might be better to claim investigator. Otherwise they might be like "Okay, lure person X tonight to confirm" and then when person x doesn't get lured... bad news bears.
True! It is a risk certainly.
On the other hand if they were like Lure person X and didn't demand confirmation the following day, then we could kill person X the following night and use the Lawyer to alter their will so that it confirmed they had been lured.
If Clyde claims investigator they'll start expecting findings and that largely means none of us (including Butters) can use Butters' results to claim investigator afterwards.
It's a gamble either way.
Hmm...who should I fuck with.
Who claimed a PR, that should probably be my main target, sheriff or inves if possible.
Enchantress isn't exactly an easy role to claim, and that's my inves pairing, so wat do?
Don't claim until somebody forces you to :)
I don't know, buddy. Somebody claiming PR day 1 most likely isn't one. Maybe hit somebody loud because they'll probably report it and spread the misinformation to the rest of the population.
I may just hit Gerald, cause he's a fucking retard...
or of course, Yayap up to his usual shenanigans
Clyde has not talked since telling us he's been coffee-d lol.
Would this mean that it does indeed block his chats to us? :x
Maybe they poisoned his coffee.
Night actions for tonight are.
Kill Shelley
- Send Kenny
Investigate Jimmy (via Butters)
Drug deal Gerald
- Send Kyle
Abstaining:
- Muso
- Clyde
If you want to voice an alternative now's the time to do it.
Time to wet our blades.
I'm going to go ahead and claim Enchantress, if pushed. I don't want to risk getting checked and having the Doc out himself to reveal my invest lie. For now, however, I'm going to say that I don't want to reveal if Cartman doesn't.
Mmm. Ready when you are, Master Ike. -licks blade-
What shall I carve on her body with my dagger for the death note~?
(Though, why are we drug dealing Gerald? Is he even worth a night action? Lol.)
I think this might be an appropriate death note:
Four-and-a-half years I live wit' a buddy an' his family. I think I'm diggin' a guy's character... Boy, I'm a victim of disappointment in you.
Ike, any one of your mafia members can override your actions through pm or even in this thread.
You can choose who forgoes their night ability in exchange for a kill, but that's about it. This would essentially turn one of your mafia members into a mafioso for a night.
Remember, they can still choose not to kill, or to kill someone you don't want them to kill. Be careful.
For example, Clyde can choose to Drug deal someone even though you think he should abstain. Kenny can choose not to kill, or to kill someone else, even though you ordered him to kill Shelley. Kyle can choose to investigate someone of his own choosing... etc.
The only decision you can make is who will turn into a mafioso for tonight.
Shhhhhh don't tell them!
Whew. I think that's it. Now, what to do? Lol.
I know a number of you have suggested targets for killing tonight, but I intend to target somebody well and truly off the radar. I don't want our killer running into anybody unexpected tonight and needlessly endangering themselves.
eg. running into a lookout, spree killer, doctor's heal, or even a busdriver who manages to swap our target with one of us/a citizen or neutral. From Day 1 I do not believe there is sufficient evidence to reliably discern worthy power role targets amongst the active players. On the other hand, I do think we've got a chance of finding one amongst the quieter players. With this in mind, I may choose the target myself.
I want to hear the most debate on subjects for the Consigliere and Drug dealing.
I still think the Lawyer is a good killer for tonight, and I can take over his job tomorrow night. I'm also open to using the 2nd Drug dealer instead for the killer if you guys still don't want to use both of them tonight.
Nobody's should go anywhere near Cartman. It's a guaranteed suicide mission.
Clyde, I'm curious who you're going to vote for in the election? I know you've stated you don't want to be elected in the daychat so that may excuse you if you don't vote for yourself, but on the other hand I wonder if it will make people question themselves as to why you didn't want to be Mayor. It's upto you of course what to do, but I am curious what your plan is.
Clyde also suggested we vote for Al and it's a good idea. Possibly 1/2 of us should vote for McDaniels (assuming he becomes a candidate) as well to hide our tracks.
Going near Cartman is NOT a guaranteed suicide mission. I can practically guarantee that Big Gay Al will be the subject of the spree killer's attention. Cartman on the other hand is going to be the subject of one person: the jailor and as far as I know, the spree killer's attack wouldn't affect the jailor since he kidnaps Cartman at the start of the night. And no one else is going to attack Cartman because they know he's getting jailed, which means a lookout probably won't be watching him because they won't know they won't be seeing anything. And if a lookout does see me visit Cartman at night for some inexplicable reason, I'll just explain that I'm an investigator trying to verify Cartman's claim. Which is what I'm doing anyway.
If Cartman is a lover, then I'll tell you in our secret chat and then you can take him out and merge to win the game after my death. If he's telling the truth we're pretty fucked anyway once he reveals everybody, so it's probably best to get that information now. Especially if Cartman makes a deal to not out everyone in the town (i.e make it look like he was lying) but then the jailor secretly kills off the mafia members each night with his now complete list.
I want you to seriously consider that possibility. Because without any investigative evidence, we'd have no choice but to believe Cartman was bsing during the day. And the only people that would know that he wasn't would be his own team, who can't kill him anyway. Finding out whether or not he is 100% a lover is incredibly important to set the tone of the rest of this game. I agree we shouldn't kill him tonight, but investigating him is an absolute must.
In terms of using a killer it's probably best to use the lawyer since it's not useful to us at all tonight and it can't really mess people up too much in this game anyway since their roles show up in the graveyard and they can change their will each night anyway. Whether or not you guys want to use both drug dealers is up to you but personally I don't see a reason not to. It would require a lot of town roles to claim in order to reveal any possible double ups before they came to the drug dealer conclusion.
You can kill whoever you want, though I'd suggest someone like Shelley. They seem like they're pretty good, and their frustration with the day 1 events means they're some kind of town role. Plus they didn't really make any friends in the day chat so I doubt they'll be the focus of anyone else's attention.
I appreciate what you're saying, but I'm going to try and convince you to change your mind.
Think about what we have to gain from investigating Cartman:
1. We learn he fits into the Lover category. If this is the case and he's telling the jailor everything then you're right gg and there's nothing we can do anyhow.
2. He's not a Lover, which means he's fucking with people, which means he's helping us, which means he's not our concern.
The jailor can only kill at night when there has been no lynch during the day. After day 1 this is unlikely to occur again. This means that the Jailor has to reveal his information publicly in order to bring about a death.
Even if Cartman does fit into the Lover investigation category any doc, subsequent jail, bodyguard, etc could prevent us from successfully killing him.
Lastly, even if you do investigate him, the best you can hope for is Godfather/ Citizen/ Lover category, which only proves that he fits into the largest investigation category in the game not that he is in fact a Lover. It's actually a genius citizen play because it draws a hell of a lot of mafia attention to a meatshield Town role.
If I was a Spree Killer I would visit Cartman even despite the jailor's prisoner immunity. The people who are most likely to be visiting Cartman are investigative roles (like yourself). These are the people the Spree Killer wants dead first because they're the people who can find him. Cartman also represents the single player most likely to garner attention tonight. I agree Al is likely to be visited by players too, but the Spree Killer could act either way.
Okay, let's run through the two scenarios. Again.
If Cartman is NOT a lover
1) Then he's not a town, since he's creating confusion and wasting the jailor's ability for a night, and drawing the spotlight on himself instead of possible scum
2) He's also psychic, since he was right when, at the time, he said that one of the 3 people running for mayor (me, Big Gay Al, Tweek) was scum.
3) Since he's not town, we can conclude he's not the citizen if the cit/gf/lover result comes up.
4) Following the logic of #3, then we would be able to conclude that he's the GF of the other team. So we would find and remove the GF of the enemy mafia. And this... is a bad thing?
5) If he does not come up as a lover, and we have confirmation that his findings are just ramblings trying to gain attention, we know to ignore him for the rest of the game, but the rest of town won't. They'll still be hanging on to his every word like it's the gospel, while we strategize our next move freely. Or we're going to spend every night going through this same argument as Cartman continues to feed the town and jailor information, and we'll have no idea whether or not we're completely fucked.
If Cartman IS a lover
1) Then we'll know that he is our top priority tomorrow night.
2) Once we kill him, the traitor in our own mafia will commit suicide.
3) We'll get a shit load of people on our team. I know you guys disagree with having a team of, what, 8 mafia over a team of 5, but I still find it preferable.
4) We'll stop Cartman from revealing any more night actions. It's bad enough that he revealed the other team's roles, since we're operating under the fact that he's telling the truth in this section. The last thing we need is for him to reveal the night actions of both teams, ours and theirs, every night.
5) We're probably fucked anyway, might as well know it so I don't waste time trying to BS a day chat that has us all pegged.
If I was a spree killer I would visit Big Gay Al or Tweek, as both were accused of being scum, and are both in the running for mayor, with Big Gay Al the clear winner. One of them is likely to be checked tonight by the investigator(s) and healed and bodyguarded, etc. If the spree killer goes for one of them he'll be guaranteed several kills. Going for Cartman will net him what? Maybe one or two investigators. I think you're more paranoid about Cartman being the target of the spree killer because you know I'm going to go there. The Spree Killer does not know this.
And don't forget that no lynch days are pretty easy in a setup with this many people. Look how hard it was to get lynches off last FM, it was like pulling teeth regardless of the target. When there's so many people in a setup, and a considerable portion lurkers, it's hard to get a large majority as compared to a smaller game.
The last FM was retarded. In every other FM there is a lynch every day.
I don't know you're going to visit him because I can order you to go where I decide.
The insinuation has been not that Cartman would reveal our actions but rather that he would reveal our roles. Is this true? If so then it only takes one night. eg. tonight for us to be fucked.
If he is Lover then what's to stop the Jailor just jailiing him again tomorrow night and rendering him immune from our attacks?
How does killing a Lover help us when all of our identities have already been revealed?
You think that he can't be a Citizen? Wasting a jailor's abilities for a night is an excellent trade-off for diverting the mafia's attentions. Additionally he gets to confer with the jailor and discuss who knows what.
Clyde and I have already come to the conclusion that Cartman is not the Lover, which following our reasoning means we're simply investigating a likely neutral, which will help us little.
You feel as though you are compelled to visit Cartman which makes Cartman a perfect target for the Spree Killer because of the high chance he hits a consigliere. He wants to hit a consigliere especially because if his identity is revealed to the mafia it is guaranteed he will not surive to the end which he needs to do to win. I assume town investigators will be smarter than to be visiting any of the mayor candidates. For one, they make excellent targets for the framer, and two finding out what the mayor may be is relatively unimportant at this stage of the game. A mayor even in evil hands is not an enormous threat to the Town just yet.
Ike, your post just made me think of something...
We've been racking our brains for roles Cartman could be aside from Masochist, Lover, and regular Shark, and so far have come up with nothing. What if Cartman really IS a Citizen? He makes a lot of noise by pretending to be a Lover, gets targeted by BOTH mafia teams in some way (either through killing or investigation), and is pretty much a shoe-in for a Spree Killer targeting. Boom; instant 2-3 mafia kills, possibly more if more scum target him. In the meantime, he's invulnerable in jail, and thus can't take any real damage from the ploy.
Anyways, we should stay away from Cartman and Al, imo.
No offense, Butters, but it seems like most of the town ALREADY has you pegged for scum. No one is going to believe an Invest claim from you after today. Your campaign for Mayor made too many people mistrust you.
I feel like we've been over this. Early merge = bad for us, not winning.
As Ike pointed out, it would be far from 100%. With 2 GFs, 11 Citizens, and 2 Lovers (15/36), we would know with roughly 42% certainty.
I agree on the Lawyer for the kill tonight. As for the Drug Dealers, at least one of us should act. However, I don't think we both should. Kyle has a lower profile than I do, so I think it should be him rather than me. As for targets, not sure about that.
I agree that Shelley might be a good choice for a kill.
As for voting, I plan to vote for Big Gay Al. We should do a 3/2 split between Big Gay Al and McDaniels, or a 3/1/1 between Al, McDaniels, and myself, whichever you guys prefer. The bigger the spread, the less likely we will be seen as a unified group. With Al, enough people expressed support that it won't be too surprising if he wins by a significant lead.
If people question why I didn't vote for myself, I have two reasons in mind; input would be nice. First, I could simply say that I didn't realize it was an option, and that I thought we HAD to vote for someone other than ourselves. Second, I could again reiterate that I never wanted to be elected Mayor, and that I thought Big Gay Al would do a better job scumhunting than I would. What do you guys think?
Finally, Ike, I was just wondering... who is your Ventriloquist smurf? I was trying to figure it out during the daytime, but for the life of me couldn't. It might help us to know something like that.
I understand that you and Clyde have come to the conclusion that Cartman is lying, but I have not. For one, look at Kyle. He tried to divert our attention away from Cartman and then when I called him out as the lover he stopped speaking entirely here. Maybe he's just AFK or maybe he knows we found him out. If Cartman is the lover and he gets jailed twice in a row, then yeah we're fucked. But that's something entirely out of our control at that point. I mean do you opt to not do anything when you find a sheriff out of fear the jailor will jail him to protect him at night? Frankly, I've never seen that strategy used but it is a possibility. I personally think that given the information we have at hand we should investigate Cartman to find out what exactly is going on so we can be better informed about our next move.
Knowledge is power, especially for the mafia, and if we're expected to play to our best abilities then we can't be making strategies with a giant question mark on the field. It's like playing chess where you don't know whether that's a queen or a pawn next to your king. You're probably fucked if it's a queen, but it's better to know and adapt than assume it's a pawn and get fucked.
I didn't know you had final say on our targets, so you're right then, you make the call, not me. So what the fuck am I even doing arguing with you at this point if you're just going to overrule my decision. I get that you already have one smurf but if you want two that's fine, override my decision and do whatever you want to do despite my input. I just assumed, incorrectly I guess, that when we picked our roles we were doing so to play to our strengths. Apparently you could've random.org'd them though for all you care.
And Clyde, I just saw your post. Now you're telling me that investigating Cartman is a bad idea, when in the "Cartman Problem" you agreed that I should investigate Cartman tonight. I'm confused.
Butters, I'm going to go through your last post bit-by-bit so we can maybe finally see eye-to-eye. What this team DOESN'T need is strife; we all need to get on the same page here. :|
Yeah, because NO town roles are supposed to draw the spotlight onto themselves rather than onto other, more powerful town roles... EXCEPT CITIZEN, which comprises of more than half of the town.
And yet I'm fairly convinced that either Al or Tweek is scum. It's not really that tough to guess - I mean, the MAJORITY of the town guessed that you were scum LONG before Cartman spoke up. :|
See above.
See above.
If he's the GF, we would have no way of knowing for sure. Beyond that, TOWN would have no way of distinguishing himself from a Lover, which would mean the Sharks have effectively gotten into bed with the town. But we could never know for sure based on your result, which means we would only speculate and argue (like we're doing now) more, wasting precious time and energy (like we're doing now).
Then again, if we wait until tomorrow, I can ask him to provide the list of roles for the Mafia that he didn't already give (e.g. us) and we'll know if he's lying or not for sure (whereas your method would leave a margin of error of more than 50%). In fact, my way of finding out his real identity is a hell of a lot more precise than yours, and frees you up to check someone else. Funny how that works out, isn't it?
Tomorrow night, when he gets BG'd, healed, jailed again, Spree Killer targeted, etc.? You mean that tomorrow night? If he really IS the Lover, he's untouchable for the rest of the game, until town is dead and can't protect him.
Thus reducing the total Mafia KPN and quadrupling the amount of people we have to kill.
Yeah, a team of 8 mafia versus a team of 20 town + neutrals, with only 1 kill per night. Sounds like a great way to lose.
Not really any way we can stop him if he's dead (and thus proven to be a Lover, and thus correct). If he dies, the Jailor will reveal all of our names. We will all be lynched or killed. Game over.
If he's alive, we can slowly work to tarnish his reputation, sow doubt in the minds of the town about his claims, and discredit him. And he will have no way of proving us wrong, because if we're subtle enough, he won't be able to tell town who to lynch without risking a modkill and loss.
Yeah, that way we could all just reveal and game-throw instead of playing out the game. Great idea. :|
The Spree Killer doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the Mafia team that Cartman doesn't belong to will want to know for damn sure whether or not he is actually a Lover, as will the town.
Frankly, we don't KNOW who the Spree Killer will target. There is a list of probable targets, and Cartman is pretty high up on it, along with Big Gay Al and Tweek. All the more reason to not target ANYONE on that list.
Are we on the same page now? Or do we need to keep arguing about this for the rest of night chat, and not have a chance to strategize? Because this shit is setting us back. :|
And yet, Kyle isn't in here sowing mistrust and confusion.
I'm not going to speculate on our Lover until we have information. We won't have that until tomorrow.
However, there is one good candidate in my mind - someone who doesn't seem to be working in the group's best interests. :|
No, I opt to find and kill the jailor. Christ. Have you played Mafia before?
Why don't we just put it to a vote? If you lose the vote, please shut up about it.
Bad metaphors aren't going to help us pick night targets.
Apparently, night 1 was my night to be butthurt over Ike's decision making. Night 2 is yours. Get over it and be a team player.
It's called a rapidly changing situation. I hadn't thought of the possibility that Cartman is a Citizen doing all of this SOLELY to get targeted by a Spree Killer and wipe out the Mafia and scum. Since that is a possibility, I think we should avoid visiting him. Again, we will know 100% whether or not he is a Lover tomorrow when I ask him what the roles are for the Mafia that he's not a part of. Checking him tonight when we will know for sure tomorrow is a stupid idea and a waste of time. Get over it.
Alright yeah, like I said I have no control over the situation so pick whatever you guys think is best. I have submitted my opinion and there's no point in arguing about it anymore. So you two can do what you want and I won't say another word about it. :|
Edit: Wow, I like how when you got pissy and threatened to quit I didn't give a dick attitude to you, I told you to relax and stick with us. Interesting how when I'm of the dissenting opinion your attitude changes quite drastically. I thought that discussing strategies was an important part of this night chat. I've always found conflicting viewpoints to be an important part of forming strategies, because it forces you to fix holes in your own when you defend it. Apparently you want us all to just be 'yes men' though? Alright, I'm shutting up now.
It hasn't changed; I'm still getting pissy. Only this time, I don't have booze to calm me down.
I don't want blind agreement. You're just using the same arguments that you've been using since Cartman revealed to push for us to spend time on him. I don't understand why you are pushing for this SO HARD, and it feels like we're going in circles, repeating endlessly. If you could make me understand why you want us to spend time on Cartman so much, I wouldn't be getting annoyed by it. But you just keep coming back to the same arguments, which will keep getting the same response from everyone else.
I have a few ideas as to why someone might do this. None of those ideas are good for my opinion of how we should handle your suggestions.
You can think what you want, but I'm not the lover if that's what you're trying to hint at. I'm just outspoken and that can be frustrating, as you of all people should know.
I'm done talking about Cartman, your plan sounds good, so what else would you like to talk about tonight? We've agreed that Shelley could be a good target. We can't do anything about any of the big three targets (Big Gay Al, Tweek, McDaniels). Is there any one else you think we should put our attention towards? Personally, it seems like most people are just letting them do all the talking while they sit back and spout random nonsense (like Jimbo and Gerald which is a funny coincidence since they voted for me, given the way this night chat has been going).
I'm fine with investigating Jimmy since he seems like another mid-level player between the ramblers and the town leaders.
I'm glad you bring up Jimmy, because I'd nearly forgotten. I'd be VERY interested to know what Jimmy is. His comments are few and far between, tend to not really contribute anything, and are often humorous. Lots of active lurking with that one.
I don't know what to do with Jimbo either. Though Gerald, I'm convinced, is flat out retarded.
Also, I wouldn't mind getting a solid read on McDaniels TOMORROW night. He seems to get lots of support in bursts, usually when another candidate gets questioned. There might have been some team-play going on with that. Not sure.
Oh and wtf is up with Wendy? If we don't investigate Jimmy I feel like Wendy should be the alternate. Her actions in the day chat confused the hell out of me and I have no idea what her alignment is now.
The question is... Is Muso really a gaylord?
lol.
Muso... what a fag.
So...
I have been invited to have coffee with "Doc" and Cartman.
Guys, guys, I feel like we're falling apart at the seams.
This is why us girls have to work so hard puttin' up with you guys' oversensitive pride. No more jabbing, okay? Girls can be pretty evil sometimes, and you don't want to face the wrath of Sumi. It involves soap and chainsaws.
Just a few things I'd like to address:
1. Though I don't mind being sent out to kill since my last will editing is probably not useful tonight, I don't understand why we don't send the smurf to kill every night till it gets killed lol. Sure, the smurf may come in handy occasionally. Though the chance of someone following me is almost zero, the chance is still there, and why jeopardize a regular player over a smurf is the question I'm wondering, since after tonight, we're assuming we're sending drug dealers to kill right?
2. I've actually not paid a whole lot of attention to Jimmy lol. I'll have to go back and read his posts.
3. There is a chance Doc is Al. Clyde is the one he trusts most, and he'll want to hear Cartman's explanation, of course. Clyde, are you able to talk to us and talk to them at the same time? Or are you chat-blocked? (Which I guess if you are you won't be able to answer this.) So... CLYDE WHERE ARE YOU. HOLLER IF YOU NEED HEEEEEELP!
I can talk in both chats at once. Doc has asked me to role-claim. Cartman claims to not actually be a Lover, and that it's an elaborate ploy to oust the Mafia. However, he refused to say this until he knew who the other person in Coffee chat was. He reveals to claim his "real" role because he doesn't trust me enough, even though he voted for me. I might also refuse to reveal until he does, but that might make me appear scummy. I don't want Cartman to turn around and reveal everything I say to the town. Advice? I can post excerpts if necessary and allowed. False?
Ah, of course, Cartman isn't lover after all. Be at ease, Waaagh. :)
If you're allowed, I suggest posting everything they're saying so we can get an idea.
1. Are we even allowed to send the Smurf to kill? I didn't think the Smurf was capable of carrying out night actions.
2. I'm sure you know it already but be very careful, Clyde. You can trust the Architect because he is proven Town so I'd try to follow him as much as possible. Maybe illustrate your fears this whole thing could be an elaborate non-lover Mafia ploy. See how Doc feels about the idea and if he wants a role-claim give it to him without hesitation. Just do whatever you have to do to get out of this without a scum finger pointed at you.
After you claim Enchantress they may expect proof in subsequent days/nights by recommending a target. We may be able to kill that target the night after and alter their will to suit your story.
Maybe start a new thread and copy all the messages across as well.
Somehow I missed reading this message before.
My Smurf alter-ego is Barbrady.
No.
Oh. Dang it. I thought when I read on Ventriloquist's role card that "has no night actions, but may perform kills" that it meant the Vent could send the smurf to kill...
Well nevermind then.
I see from the official order of operations that lookout comes before kills. Would that mean the lookout only sees the people whose actions preceded the lookout (thus he would never see drug dealers)? If someone from our Mafia went to kill someone, would the lookout find out the people who visited the dead person while he was alive, aka the Mafia member and possibly other people?
If you want to Clyde, you could claim investigator and then I could just feed you the information from my results. It might keep you alive in the long run, and it would mean the Doc and Cartman would "protect" you from accusations in the day chat. I dunno, something to think about. What's your good side investigation result again? Is it something BS-able? If not, invest might be the way to go.
Enchantress.
In that case it might be better to claim investigator. Otherwise they might be like "Okay, lure person X tonight to confirm" and then when person x doesn't get lured... bad news bears.
True! It is a risk certainly.
On the other hand if they were like Lure person X and didn't demand confirmation the following day, then we could kill person X the following night and use the Lawyer to alter their will so that it confirmed they had been lured.
If Clyde claims investigator they'll start expecting findings and that largely means none of us (including Butters) can use Butters' results to claim investigator afterwards.
It's a gamble either way.
Hmm...who should I fuck with.
Who claimed a PR, that should probably be my main target, sheriff or inves if possible.
Enchantress isn't exactly an easy role to claim, and that's my inves pairing, so wat do?
Don't claim until somebody forces you to :)
I don't know, buddy. Somebody claiming PR day 1 most likely isn't one. Maybe hit somebody loud because they'll probably report it and spread the misinformation to the rest of the population.
I may just hit Gerald, cause he's a fucking retard...
or of course, Yayap up to his usual shenanigans
Clyde has not talked since telling us he's been coffee-d lol.
Would this mean that it does indeed block his chats to us? :x
Maybe they poisoned his coffee.
Night actions for tonight are.
Kill Shelley
- Send Kenny
Investigate Jimmy (via Butters)
Drug deal Gerald
- Send Kyle
Abstaining:
- Muso
- Clyde
If you want to voice an alternative now's the time to do it.
Time to wet our blades.
I'm going to go ahead and claim Enchantress, if pushed. I don't want to risk getting checked and having the Doc out himself to reveal my invest lie. For now, however, I'm going to say that I don't want to reveal if Cartman doesn't.
Mmm. Ready when you are, Master Ike. -licks blade-
What shall I carve on her body with my dagger for the death note~?
(Though, why are we drug dealing Gerald? Is he even worth a night action? Lol.)
I think this might be an appropriate death note:
Four-and-a-half years I live wit' a buddy an' his family. I think I'm diggin' a guy's character... Boy, I'm a victim of disappointment in you.
Ike, any one of your mafia members can override your actions through pm or even in this thread.
You can choose who forgoes their night ability in exchange for a kill, but that's about it. This would essentially turn one of your mafia members into a mafioso for a night.
Remember, they can still choose not to kill, or to kill someone you don't want them to kill. Be careful.
For example, Clyde can choose to Drug deal someone even though you think he should abstain. Kenny can choose not to kill, or to kill someone else, even though you ordered him to kill Shelley. Kyle can choose to investigate someone of his own choosing... etc.
The only decision you can make is who will turn into a mafioso for tonight.
Shhhhhh don't tell them!
Whew. I think that's it. Now, what to do? Lol.