The Cartman Problem

[Clyde]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing the Cartman problem and what we plan to do about it.

If someone could compile a list of all of the things that Cartman supposedly asked False, that would be immensely helpful.

That would be an easy way of checking his claims - to simply re-ask False the things Cartman supposedly "asked", and see what lines up to what he said.

[Forum Mafia GM]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing the Cartman problem and what we plan to do about it.

If someone could compile a list of all of the things that Cartman supposedly asked False, that would be immensely helpful.

That would be an easy way of checking his claims - to simply re-ask False the things Cartman supposedly "asked", and see what lines up to what he said.
I'm down. Hit me with all you've got.

[Ike]

In reverse order, these were all the relevant posts of his I could find:


I'm just going to tell the jailor everything I know tonight anyways. FalseTruth said I was allowed to say anything I wanted in the jail chat.

You know I'm just going to turn around and ask FalseTruth myself, why don't you make your post green? I'll save you the trouble since I mostly talked to him about day1, I haven't gotten around to asking him what I can tell you day 2.

Can the lover reveal all the night actions of the mafia in day chat the following day?

Where did you learn to count? I count 37 game accounts. = 1 possible ventriloquists.
I found this an odd response because there ARE 38 names on there, it's just one of them has been doubled. It's like somebody else counted the names and he got the information from his memory of their post. That would suggest he was in the other mafia and they'd discussed it?

The only way I can prove who I am is to say something that would result in me being modkilled. If the other lover reveals then everything I have risked is for nothing since I don't think...

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/3904-FM-VIII-Gameplay-Discussion-Part-2-(How-Mafia-will-work)


I didn't get the full list for the other mafia yet, I only know 2 of them. Lovers chat is closed for the day....
If this is true I think it tells us who the other Lover is.

Mafia win conditions specifically say to kill the other lover and not their own. So I don't think my own mafia can kill me. And like I said, I talked to FT about day 1 reveal. I won't be modkilled...



Mafia win conditions specifically say to kill the other lover and not their own. So I don't think my own mafia can kill me. And like I said, I talked to FT about day 1 reveal. I won't be modkilled...

I'll have to talk to FT about that. But if my own mafia could target me then I had no chance to win since the start since they would know instantly who the lovers were when the lovers ignored the...

[Ike]

It is interesting that Cartman nominated you for mayor, Clyde, seeing as he has stated he intends to sell us all out.

Admittedly he claims he only knows the identities of 2 of the mafia on the opposing team.

[Clyde]

Yeah, I don't think Cartman is a Lover after all. Either that, or he intends to force a merge later in the game, and thus wants a Mafia Pardoner. If this is the case, you can anticipate him selling out non-mafia in order to force the town to lynch innocents. Either THAT or he has no choice to support me because opposing my nomination would reveal me as Mafia and thus get him modkilled, forcing the merger NOW and resulting in his loss.

Also, he got the 37 person count from MY list, in which I deleted the extra name. I searched, and there is only 1 Jason account registered on the forums.

False, can Lovers say whatever they want in Jailor chat, including revealing their fellow Mafia to the Jailor?


Everything else on that list is pretty cut-and-dried. Once day 1 ends, I will go through the thread and find other relevant Lover questions to ask.

[Ike]

Good, I think we agree then.

With this in mind the two scenarios I see are:

1. Cartman is a neutral who is going to harm town
2. Cartman is a townie and this is some sophisticated play to make us trip up.

i haven't thought this one through much, but it is possible

3. Cartman is an enemy mafia, but not a Lover

Either way, I think we should hold our nerve and keep our distance.

[Clyde]

I could see him being enemy, non-Lover mafia. It's actually a great play if he is - checking him will only reveal he is Mafia, not that he is or isn't Lover. So by claiming Lover publicly, he puts himself on town's side, ensuring a no-lynch. He can even tell the truth about his role or the roles in his Maf, and then manipulate the town into voting in a pro-Mafia manner.

[Butters]

It's quite an elaborate setup on Cartman's part to be asking about the information he can provide jailor if he is indeed faking. I still believe he's a lover, and I still think we should kill him. I'm not going to keep repeating the same arguments over and over again because that's pointless and there's obviously I'm the only one that thinks this way. So I'm okay with you guys killing whoever you want to.

Who would you guys like me to investigate tonight? I think it's likely that the mayor will be the target of a spree killer and the pardoner the target of the enemy mafia. So should I visit Cartman to verify his grave robber claim? Or to at least make sure he's not a masochist?

[Clyde]

I think you should check McDaniels or Jimmy.

[Kenny]

I'd be careful around Cartman. A sly lookout may have foreseen the possibility of a spree killer on Al and decide to follow someone not as prominent.
I have considered the possibility of him being a neutral as masochist, but I never anticipated that he might be against town, Ike. That's VERY interesting. If he's the serial killer, than this is indeed brilliant play, as he can literally just name 8 random people and have- Nope. Actually I just realized... Not gonna work. The moment they lynch someone wrong he might as well as say goodbye to his neck. He is either the lover, or the masochist. I can't find another role he could be, as nothing else you tell the jailer will be worth anything or rather he could be looking for that jailer attack since jailer can execute today.

[Butters]

If we're going to spare Cartman under the assumption that he's actually town or a masochist, I'd rather confirm that so we can make a more informed decision tomorrow.

And if a lookout confronts me on visiting Cartman, I'll claim investigator like I normally would. It's not like he's going to die while in jail, I'm not attacking the guy, I'm just verifying that he is indeed the lover. Lookouts are not a problem with that.

[Clyde]

If you are attacked while in jail, do you receive a notification that you were attacked but survived, like in SC2 mafia?

[Forum Mafia GM]

False, can Lovers say whatever they want in Jailor chat, including revealing their fellow Mafia to the Jailor?

Yes. You need to ask yourself a follow-up question to truly understand why this rule is the way it is.

[Forum Mafia GM]

If you are attacked while in jail, do you receive a notification that you were attacked but survived, like in SC2 mafia?
Yes.

[Butters]

So I guess this game is going to turn into a race against the clock, us trying to kill the other mafia before the town gets to both of us, since it's likely the jailor will release the list during the day for everyone to see. Except the other team has a disguiser....

[Clyde]

Yes.

Then Butters, we should not attack Cartman. If he gets attacked in jail and the only person who visited him is one of us, a Lookout could easily lynch us despite your invest claim.

@False: Working on a follow up question. Day chat is moving rather quickly, so I'm focusing on that mainly.

[Clyde]

So I guess this game is going to turn into a race against the clock, us trying to kill the other mafia before the town gets to both of us, since it's likely the jailor will release the list during the day for everyone to see. Except the other team has a disguiser....

You seem certain that Cartman really is the other team's Lover. Your post takes it as a given that he is telling the truth about everything that he's said. No one else on our team is convinced.

[Butters]

Then Butters, we should not attack Cartman. If he gets attacked in jail and the only person who visited him is one of us, a Lookout could easily lynch us despite your invest claim.

@False: Working on a follow up question. Day chat is moving rather quickly, so I'm focusing on that mainly.

I know, since it's likely he's getting jailed tonight, there's no point. Though investigating him is the only thing worth doing since it'll confirm/deny his lover status in case Cartman gives just the jailor the list of all maf in the game. And then they get picked off each night with the town agreeing to no lynch days every day.

And yes, I'm pretty convinced he's the lover. I see no reason to lie as extensively as he has during the day chat to go for a masochist win. He even offered to get jailed tonight. If he was a masochist why would he do that? If they find out he's telling the truth they'll likely keep him protected the rest of the game. It honestly doesn't make sense to me for him to be anything other than what he has claimed.

[Butters]

And the fact that no one else is as convinced as me is exactly why I'm going to investigate him tonight. So we can end this discussion of is he/is he not once and for all.

[Kenny]

Gawd, I really he is a stupid serial killer and it'll get a mislynch tomorrow which will help us.

[Kenny]

Lol False says we PM the votes in.
Aka, we have a chance at electing Clyde as mayor. xD Since it won't be revealed who voted for whom, right?

[Clyde]

Though investigating him is the only thing worth doing since it'll confirm/deny his lover status in case Cartman gives just the jailor the list of all maf in the game

Does investing a Lover return a Lover message, or a role message?


And yes, I'm pretty convinced he's the lover. I see no reason to lie as extensively as he has during the day chat to go for a masochist win. He even offered to get jailed tonight. If he was a masochist why would he do that?

Because a jailor execution counts as 1/2 necessary attacks. And it's relatively easy to convince a jailor to kill you by lying poorly (and his story is full of holes, as various people have pointed out).

@Kenny: Please don't vote for me. Mayor will be checked, and I will not hold up to intense scrutiny from the town. I would MUCH rather be Pardoner (and Pardoner would be FAR more helpful in the long run).

[Forum Mafia GM]

Lol False says we PM the votes in.
Aka, we have a chance at electing Clyde as mayor. xD Since it won't be revealed who voted for whom, right?
Wrong.

[Forum Mafia GM]

Does investing a Lover return a Lover message, or a role message?

Investing a lover returns a cit/gf/lover message.

[Clyde]

Investing a lover returns a cit/gf/lover message.

OHSNAP.

Okay, I say Butters checks Cartman then.

[Kenny]

Ah, so the voting results will be shown.
In that case, I shall vote for someone else.
But the problem is, Clyde, if no one votes for you, McDaniels is going to beat you out for pardoner.
Because I don't think the results of who voted for whom is tabulated and shown till the end of the election.
Or is that wrong?

[Ike]

Ah, so the voting results will be shown.
In that case, I shall vote for someone else.
But the problem is, Clyde, if no one votes for you, McDaniels is going to beat you out for pardoner.
Because I don't think the results of who voted for whom is tabulated and shown till the end of the election.
Or is that wrong?

I think it's better to lose the Pardoner than to lose Clyde.

The role isn't hugely useful seeing as; if the majority believes one of us is guilty enough to hang and Clyde steps in and pardons us they'll be convinced of Clyde's guilt AND ours. I can see how it could be useful in the end game but I think it the role would garner more attention to Clyde than it's worth.

[Clyde]

Yeah; we wouldn't be able to use it pretty much until LYLO. So the benefit is relatively small, and yet the risk to not only the person on trial but the person who gets Pardoner (me) and uses it to free a person who is guilty in the eyes of the town is pretty great. Big risk, relatively small reward = not worth it this early. I think we should all vote for Big Gay Al or McDaniels. If enough other people vote for me (I mean, if Al turns out to be Mafia, I'm sure they're having this same conversation right now), I will still get Pardoner. But it's not worth pushing. Notice how I got people to trust me - by NOT wanting power and actively encouraging people to not vote for me. xD