S-FM Tokens (12P)

[yzb25]

Role List (12 players)


1) Citizen
2) Citizen
3) Citizen
4) Citizen
5) Citizen
6) Citizen
7) Citizen
8) Citizen
9) Citizen
10) Mafioso
11) Mafioso
12) Mafioso

Special Voting Mechanics

Days 1 and 2 have a special voting system and 72 hour days. From day 3 onwards, the game will revert to the normal lynchvote w/ plurality. During day 1 and day 2, players will choose who to lynch 3 times, and two people will be lynched based on who accumulated the most votes throughout the day.

Specifically:

-Days 1 and 2 are each split into 3 24-hour cycles. Each cycle, every player MUST (vote)(/vote) somebody.
-You can change your vote freely during the cycle.
-At the end of each cycle, I will save the current VC then reset the votes. Details are given below.
-At EOD, the two players who accumulated the most votes over the 3 cycles will be lynched. Ties will be broken with RNG.
-Any player who did not vote during a cycle will be impeached.
-Once a player is impeached, if a majority of players write "IMPEACH [player]" in massive red capitals in the thread by EOD, they will die (in the game).

ALSO:

-During cycle 1, you may (vote)abstain(/vote). However, if you do not specifically vote to abstain, you will still be impeached.
-During cycle 2, on top of your normal vote, you may PM the host an "anti-vote" on a player.
-Anti-votes for each player (and who cast them) will be announced at the end of cycle 2, and two votes will be removed from the player for each anti-vote.
-You can only anti-vote once during the game.

Lastly, there are also healvotes:

-During the day, you can send a pm to the host voting to heal a player. You can vote for multiple players.
-On n1, the 2 players with the most healvotes will be healed.
-On n2, the player with the most healvotes will be healed.
-No more heals n3 onwards.
-Ties are broken with RNG.
-The Healvote winners will be announced at EOD.

Roles

Citizen

-You have power through the vote.

WC: Kill all the mafia.

Mafioso

-You know who all your team members are, from the start of the game.
-You share a night chat with them.
-On day 2, you also share a day chat with them. But only day 2.
-You share a factional kill that can be used once per night.

WC: Kill all the town.

Saving the vote count (dummy votes) ((not that important))

Before the game, I'll make dummy accounts for each player (i.e. Naz_1, Blinkskater_2). When a cycle ends, I will reset the votes, replace the previous votes with dummy votes, and then reopen the thread. This means that on future cycles, when you click on the VC at the top of the webpage, you'll see all the votes cast over all 3 cycles.

If [x] anti-votes are cast on a particular player by the end of cycle 2, I will switch the first [2x] dummy votes on that particular player to (vote)nullified vote(/vote). This means that the VC will also take into account anti-votes.

I'll include a link to the original vote in the dummy post replacing that vote. This means clicking on a dummy vote in the VC, nullified or not, will effectively direct to a link that leads to the original vote.

I will also update the OP, end-of-cycle-posts, and other relevant places with the vote count.

Other mechanics

-Game starts on day 1.
-Days 1 and 2 will be 72 hours. Subsequent days will be 48. Nights will be 24 hours.

Rules

Rules are the usual.

[Stealthbomber16]

A good way to do this is every time someone places a token they'd have to manually post the updated "token count".

Also RIP ColbyJack


-Produce at least 6 lines of game-relevant content per 24 hours of day.

-This can be 3 2 liners, 2 3 liners, or even 1 6 liner.
-I define a line as 20 words.
-Game relevant content includes:
1) Talking about placing a token, healvote, or lynch vote on someone (for win-con related reasons)
2) Talking about a read on someone.
3) Talking about hypothetical scum strategies and town strategies.

It notably does NOT include:

1) Copy-paste/quotations, even if game relevant.
2) Discussing the game, but not with your win-con in mind. To elaborate: Talking about placing a token on someone because they're a prick, while admirable and encouraged, will not count to your activity total.

[yzb25]

A good way to do this is every time someone places a token they'd have to manually post the updated "token count".

Also RIP ColbyJack

Ohshit good idea

[Stealthbomber16]

I really feel like there is so much missing potential in this setup. You could create some really crafty TPRs and mafia roles here.

The fact that the mafia share a day chat on specifically day 2 is very unique and I actually feel like the potential advantage that could be given by coordinating through the day chat is much more crucial than people believe it could be.

:thinking:

[yzb25]

I really feel like there is so much missing potential in this setup. You could create some really crafty TPRs and mafia roles here.

The fact that the mafia share a day chat on specifically day 2 is very unique and I actually feel like the potential advantage that could be given by coordinating through the day chat is much more crucial than people believe it could be.

:thinking:

I do feel an overwhelming temptation to add some funky roles. In particular, I played a lot with the idea of adding some funky neutrals that utilize the token system. But I have faith in the mechanics I have right now to produce an interesting enough game. Don't wanna get carried away as I often do with this sorta thing ^^.

Regardless, if you think this setup can be improved in some way, feel free to use it as a "base" for your own!

[Suntax]

I do feel an overwhelming temptation to add some funky roles. In particular, I played a lot with the idea of adding some funky neutrals that utilize the token system. But I have faith in the mechanics I have right now to produce an interesting enough game. Don't wanna get carried away as I often do with this sorta thing ^^.

Regardless, if you think this setup can be improved in some way, feel free to use it as a "base" for your own!

If this game works them a tokens 2 with swanky roles will be a must

[Otakudweeb69]

The line "you may place a token on any player but cannot take it off said player" & "you have a one time ability to take a token off of a player, whether you have voted them or not" contradict each other

[Stealthbomber16]

The line "you may place a token on any player but cannot take it off said player" & "you have a one time ability to take a token off of a player, whether you have voted them or not" contradict each other

The second line overrides the first.

[yzb25]

The line "you may place a token on any player but cannot take it off said player" & "you have a one time ability to take a token off of a player, whether you have voted them or not" contradict each other

Apologies for the ambiguity. Put slightly differently, even though you can't remove the tokens you place on people, you have a single one-use -1 token you can place on anyone as well. So, even though the +1 cannot be removed, you can use your single -1 on someone you +1'd, essentially "cancelling out" the +1.

Alternatively, you can potentially use the -1 on someone you haven't put a +1 on.

I'll try to come up with a less confusing way to present the mechanic. (p;edit I think using this +1, -1 thing might appeal to people's intuition of how it works more, so I'll rephrase the setup using that)

[Otakudweeb69]

Ah I got it I was confused and thought you couldn't remove your own vote or smth idk sounds like an interesting concept

[Iced_Monopoly]

yzb25 are you good to host/have this setup reviewed fpr signups?

[yzb25]

This is really random but I just figured out how to make this setup do what I wanted, after like 2 and a half friggin years. And the solution was really obvious >.<
Marshmallow Marshall whaddaya think?


yzb25 are you good to host/have this setup reviewed fpr signups?

Also I forgot about this sorry man lmao

[OzyWho]

This is really random but I just figured out how to make this setup do what I wanted, after like 2 and a half friggin years. And the solution was really obvious >.<
Marshmallow Marshall whaddaya think?



Also I forgot about this sorry man lmao
I haven't read the special mechanics, but just wanted to point out - you have a highly unusual town vs Mafia ratio.

The default is:
[Town count] = [Mafia count]x3 +1
3 mafia 10 town
4 mafia 13 town
Etc.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Review in progress. Some questions and concerns first :

- Why does the Mafia have a day chat on D2, and on D2 only?

- What is the title about?

- Being impeached "removes you from the game". That just means "you die", correct? Can an impeached player still win?

- The alternative voting system's definition is a bit cryptic. Can there be two lynches, one with the cumulation of votes over the 3 cycles and another with the "impeachment vote"? Is a "dummy vote" simply the votes of the previous cycle in a day? Please clarify.

- The alternative voting system can heavily punish people in some timezones (depending on day start time), and will almost always result in cycles with a lot of people never being able to contribute. I would suggest making it three 24 hours cycles.

- Typo : Citizens "have the power to vo-" in their rolecard.

- The optional Mafia abilities seem to give too much power to the Mafia if used. A 10 - 4 ratio is already quite unusual for a more or less normal setup.

[OzyWho]

- The alternative voting system can heavily punish people in some timezones (depending on day start time), and will almost always result in cycles with a lot of people never being able to contribute. I would suggest making it three 24 hours cycles.
I was curious about what MM will say regarding the timezones issue.

yzb, if you comply with MM's suggestion of 24 hours - I think it's worth considering making the setup smaller? Just an opinion.

[OzyWho]

yzb25
Crazy idea. But what do you think of combining this setups mechanic with this idea (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/45795-S-FM-292-Silent-Night-14P?p=841811&viewfull=1#post841811)? But with also additional ridiculously low post limit in between all those periods, like 5.

[yzb25]

Review in progress. Some questions and concerns first :

- Why does the Mafia have a day chat on D2, and on D2 only?

- What is the title about?

- Being impeached "removes you from the game". That just means "you die", correct? Can an impeached player still win?

- The alternative voting system's definition is a bit cryptic. Can there be two lynches, one with the cumulation of votes over the 3 cycles and another with the "impeachment vote"? Is a "dummy vote" simply the votes of the previous cycle in a day? Please clarify.

- The alternative voting system can heavily punish people in some timezones (depending on day start time), and will almost always result in cycles with a lot of people never being able to contribute. I would suggest making it three 24 hours cycles.

- Typo : Citizens "have the power to vo-" in their rolecard.

- The optional Mafia abilities seem to give too much power to the Mafia if used. A 10 - 4 ratio is already quite unusual for a more or less normal setup.

-I'll answer the first two questions last.

-you get killed. You can still win. I'll correct this ambiguity.

-essentially, players vote 3 times. Once for each 16 hour cycle. And the two players who have accumulated the most votes altogether at the end of the 3 cycles die. This means players are repeatedly choosing a lynch candidate throughout the day.

I expect this will make pressure votes much more serious. If you get voted at the start of the game, the vote functionally means more than a strong expression of suspicion - it can be used as a tangible threat, because votes that remain after 16 hours will physically bring that player closer to a lynch.

I also expect it to give more opportunities to build reads. Players are forced to make more public, game influencing decisions throughout the day. Players are essentially forced to produce at least one read per cycle (unless they choose to abstain during the first). If mafia do not tread carefully, they can easily betray ulterior motives.

It also gives the town the capacity to make loads of lynches at once. Typically, town can only make one lynch for each one (or more) evil kill. At EOD2, there will be 4 town driven kills and 1 scum kill.

The dummy votes is the best way I (currently) see to keep track of the votes in a simple, easy way. I'll make dummy accounts for each player, then, at the end of a cycle, remove the votes, then use the dummy accounts to reproduce the votes, then reopen the thread. It will spam a page with dummy votes, but it will have the intended effect of "saving" the votes for the next cycle. I can even link the original vote in each of the dummy voter's posts. This way, players can use the familiar interface to vote and keep track of the votes.

With impeachment, there can in theory be any number of lynches, but this is in practice intended to give town a means to effectively vote to modkill inactives if they wish. The high number of citizens and mafiosos makes individuals more expendable.

I hope the voting system and its motivations are clearer. I'll try and make the OP clearer later. If it's still not clear, lmk.

- This bothers me too, but players technically only need to check in once every 16 hours. They can vote whenever they want within a cycle. Some cycles will be slanted against some players, but they can potentially give people in weaker zones a meaningful opportunity to contribute in a time zone that suits them. I would at least place the start of cycle 1 and the end of cycle 3 at peak time, if such a thing exists. This would include the midpart of cycle 2 in peak time.

I originally made d1 and d2 72 hours, but that sounds long-winded and exhausting lol.

-Oh I'll fix that lmao

-okay, so now I'll address the mafia points.

For reasons above, even though the town/mafia ratio looks very mafia-sided, I actually think this setup is town favoured, and that's not even mentioning the healvote's potential to keep town leaders alive. The day 2 chat is a concession which I hope would help scums manage some of their associations and capitalize on their natural ability to induce chaos in this setup - or at least create paranoia that they are. If town makes it to d3, they should be well on their way to solving the game, with the wealth of information d1 and d2 presumably created. The optional mafia ability is intended to help offset that. I can also ask people to switch to the dummy account w/o resorting to COMs.

-title is from a previous iteration.

[yzb25]

I was curious about what MM will say regarding the timezones issue.

yzb, if you comply with MM's suggestion of 24 hours - I think it's worth considering making the setup smaller? Just an opinion.

That's true, and one should probably also lower the lynches per day from 2 to 1 in said smaller setup.


yzb25
Crazy idea. But what do you think of combining this setups mechanic with this idea (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/45795-S-FM-292-Silent-Night-14P?p=841811&viewfull=1#post841811)? But with also additional ridiculously low post limit in between all those periods, like 5.

I really like the roles in that setup. However, I would personally want to try the mechanics with minimal complications before experimenting with lots of roles.

That said, I by no means own this idea. You're free to take it or parts of it and create another setup.

[OzyWho]

I really like the roles in that setup. However, I would personally want to try the mechanics with minimal complications before experimenting with lots of roles.

You misunderstood. I was linking to a post that describes a game mechanic. It's that mechanic which I found to have a synergy with your setup.

[yzb25]

You misunderstood. I was linking to a post that describes a game mechanic. It's that mechanic which I found to have a synergy with your setup.

Ohh my bad. You mean having 4 or 5 designated hrs every day and closing the thread for the rest of the time.

I see the synergy now lol. I'ma need some time to chew on that. This is new to me

[OzyWho]

Ohh my bad. You mean having 4 or 5 designated hrs every day and closing the thread for the rest of the time.

I see the synergy now lol. I'ma need some time to chew on that. This is new to me
I think that I would need to "sell" it since I pitched it to you, so at least you aren't weirded out by the idea.

The idea was designed in order to combat a problem that this website has on it's games played lately.
The problem in question is the huge gap in activity between players.
Some make 200-300 posts per game day, while some others can barerly make 1-2 posts.
As a result - both sides think the other side is ruining the game for them.

It's funny actually. The most actives ones try to compensate for the inactive players by being more active themselves, which makes the inactive ones become more inactive due to more time has to be spent on reading - it's and endless cycle, at the end of which both sides think the other side ruined the game for them.

Almost everybody agrees that post limits is a horrible solution.
But so far - the mechanic I linked to you has been the only suggested alternative to lower the gap between players' activities.

I thought it will never see the light of day. In fact I still think so. But with the obvious synergy it has with your setup - maybe there is hope? :>

I'm myself am not convinced that it's a good idea. But I just pitched it you, you're the judge.

Marshmallow Marshall
Your thoughts?

[yzb25]

I think that I would need to "sell" it since I pitched it to you, so at least you aren't weirded out by the idea.

The idea was designed in order to combat a problem that this website has on it's games played lately.
The problem in question is the huge gap in activity between players.
Some make 200-300 posts per game day, while some others can barerly make 1-2 posts.
As a result - both sides think the other side is ruining the game for them.

It's funny actually. The most actives ones try to compensate for the inactive players by being more active themselves, which makes the inactive ones become more inactive due to more time has to be spent on reading - it's and endless cycle, at the end of which both sides think the other side ruined the game for them.

Almost everybody agrees that post limits is a horrible solution.
But so far - the mechanic I linked to you has been the only suggested alternative to lower the gap between players' activities.

I thought it will never see the light of day. In fact I still think so. But with the obvious synergy it has with your setup - maybe there is hope? :>

I'm myself am not convinced that it's a good idea. But I just pitched it you, you're the judge.

Marshmallow Marshall
Your thoughts?

I'm not sure whether my instinctive discomfort with the idea stems from an instinctive resistance to change or a genuine issue with the idea. I'm still making my mind up, but it seems like an objectively sound solution.

Whaddaya think of the idea I just suggested in the thread?

[Voss]

I don't think post limits are a horrible idea. It could even be dynamic, based on how many posts have been made by the low posters.

[Voss]

Oh I thought this was the AMA thread. Please don't let me detract from this thread. Apologies!!

[yzb25]

shit MM you're right the numbers are terrible for town LOL.

Ima take away a citi and a mafia. (p;edit and the optional ability)

p;edit 2 I think the numbers are still mafia-favoured but town's got so many perks I think this should be okay now

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I have holidays stuff going on, but I didn't forget you, don't worry :P

The numbers aren't mafia-favored anymore. I think balance is good now. Thanks!

About the 72 hours D1/D2, I think it's simply fitting with the setup's essence, and not "exhausting" or anything like that. If anything, what would be exhausing would be to play 16 hours phases, from my point of view at least. It's still up to you, though; that point is more about my opinion than about balance issues or similar concerns.

I don't want to be annoying, but remember to clarify the part about being "removed from the game" (i.e. dying) when impeachment happens. ;)

Thanks for the explainations about the voting system. It's definetly interesting. A few suggestions :

- Instead of making dummy votes, couldn't you simply save the vote counts from the previous cycles instead of spamming a thread with a ton of dummy accounts?

- If you keep the term "dummy vote", you would need to define it in the original post; not everyone reads the discussion below the setup post.

And ok for the title. I still wonder why someone would call this Tokens :P


~~


To address Ozy's points : Complete inactives and super-active players cannot be put in the same category, unless high posters would be purely and simply spamming shitposts, and even then. Not being active (not to be confused with lurking, which is a strategy that can be good when used correctly and when it doesn't last forever, usually) is NOT valid. It breaks the game. The slot becomes a dice roll when it comes to its alignment. There is absolutely no effort. That is much, much more damaging for the game than super-activity is. In the worst cases, people will just skip some parts of the thread, but it won't make them unable to play, nor will it cause a complete dice roll on a slot.

As for the idea from Aamirus that you linked, Ozy, the games would become a "succession of turbos", per MU's standards. The only difference would be that each turbo would be a single lynch. Turbos could be a good idea, eventually; as for the idea, I'm not sure it will ever happen, but who knows? Maybe it will become popular.

[OzyWho]

As for the idea from Aamirus that you linked, Ozy, the games would become a "succession of turbos", per MU's standards. The only difference would be that each turbo would be a single lynch. Turbos could be a good idea, eventually; as for the idea, I'm not sure it will ever happen, but who knows? Maybe it will become popular.
I don't know turbos. What does "each turbo would be a single lynch" even mean?

This setup's first 2 days have 3 cycles in them. 3 cycles put together is a single lynch. Not 3 lynches... but you know that since you read this setup... idk what you're saying.

3 cycles, with 4 phases of talking. A post limit between the phases so people with wallpost cases can make them and everyone has time to digest them.

Speak more specific than "it's turbos" plz. It doesn't tell me anything about what your issue is with the idea. Especially given the synergy with this setup.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I don't know turbos. What does "each turbo would be a single lynch" even mean?

This setup's first 2 days have 3 cycles in them. 3 cycles put together is a single lynch. Not 3 lynches... but you know that since you read this setup... idk what you're saying.

3 cycles, with 4 phases of talking. A post limit between the phases so people with wallpost cases can make them and everyone has time to digest them.

Speak more specific than "it's turbos" plz. It doesn't tell me anything about what your issue is with the idea. Especially given the synergy with this setup.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/games/standard-turbo/

Per MU's standards

And yes, my bad, 3 turbos for one lynch. Will explain further tomorrow

[yzb25]

I have holidays stuff going on, but I didn't forget you, don't worry :P

The numbers aren't mafia-favored anymore. I think balance is good now. Thanks!

About the 72 hours D1/D2, I think it's simply fitting with the setup's essence, and not "exhausting" or anything like that. If anything, what would be exhausing would be to play 16 hours phases, from my point of view at least. It's still up to you, though; that point is more about my opinion than about balance issues or similar concerns.

I don't want to be annoying, but remember to clarify the part about being "removed from the game" (i.e. dying) when impeachment happens. ;)

Thanks for the explainations about the voting system. It's definetly interesting. A few suggestions :

- Instead of making dummy votes, couldn't you simply save the vote counts from the previous cycles instead of spamming a thread with a ton of dummy accounts?

- If you keep the term "dummy vote", you would need to define it in the original post; not everyone reads the discussion below the setup post.

And ok for the title. I still wonder why someone would call this Tokens :P


~~


To address Ozy's points : Complete inactives and super-active players cannot be put in the same category, unless high posters would be purely and simply spamming shitposts, and even then. Not being active (not to be confused with lurking, which is a strategy that can be good when used correctly and when it doesn't last forever, usually) is NOT valid. It breaks the game. The slot becomes a dice roll when it comes to its alignment. There is absolutely no effort. That is much, much more damaging for the game than super-activity is. In the worst cases, people will just skip some parts of the thread, but it won't make them unable to play, nor will it cause a complete dice roll on a slot.

As for the idea from Aamirus that you linked, Ozy, the games would become a "succession of turbos", per MU's standards. The only difference would be that each turbo would be a single lynch. Turbos could be a good idea, eventually; as for the idea, I'm not sure it will ever happen, but who knows? Maybe it will become popular.

By removing those 2 slots, I did make the max game length 72 hours shorter, so I got much less of a problem adding on 48 hours. I presume some people will find it simpler and less demanding. I think I was viewing it from the POV of someone playing it constantly like me and you and getting really drained by 72h days, but if you prefer it too then it may just be me LOL.

Also you can "save" the votes?! That would make things way simpler. Can you demonstrate that in action?

[yzb25]

I think I realized my problem with the time restriction. The passage of time contributes a lot of the depth to the gameplay, even if we take it for granted.

The whole day, you're agonizing over the thread in the back of your mind, even if you're working or studying. The thought of what might be being posted or what you might need to say right now is present, and it creates a lot more psychology. I'm not sure people will be as attached to the game without that. It also removes those off-peak back-and-forths. Where only 2 or 3 people are on at a specific time and really go at each other.

I think I'm going to keep it vanilla for the first iteration. With regards to future iterations (if they happen), I feel more comfortable imposing some form of a post limit than restricting play time. I think putting an absurd post limit on cycle 2 like 2 or 3 posts could give people a good break and could stir some serious shit for cycle 3 lmao.

[yzb25]

yeah knowing this site there might have been like 4 impeachments if we stuck with 16h lmao this is probably for the best XDDD

[Marshmallow Marshall]

By removing those 2 slots, I did make the max game length 72 hours shorter, so I got much less of a problem adding on 48 hours. I presume some people will find it simpler and less demanding. I think I was viewing it from the POV of someone playing it constantly like me and you and getting really drained by 72h days, but if you prefer it too then it may just be me LOL.

Also you can "save" the votes?! That would make things way simpler. Can you demonstrate that in action?
Indeed, removing the slots balances the D1-D2 lenghts.

Well, copypasting the vote count does the job, no? Putting it on the opening post of the thread would make it easy to use, and would prevent spam from empty accounts.

I think I realized my problem with the time restriction. The passage of time contributes a lot of the depth to the gameplay, even if we take it for granted.

The whole day, you're agonizing over the thread in the back of your mind, even if you're working or studying. The thought of what might be being posted or what you might need to say right now is present, and it creates a lot more psychology. I'm not sure people will be as attached to the game without that. It also removes those off-peak back-and-forths. Where only 2 or 3 people are on at a specific time and really go at each other.

I think I'm going to keep it vanilla for the first iteration. With regards to future iterations (if they happen), I feel more comfortable imposing some form of a post limit than restricting play time. I think putting an absurd post limit on cycle 2 like 2 or 3 posts could give people a good break and could stir some serious shit for cycle 3 lmao.
Indeed, phase lenght is very important. But about being completely drained because of a game day, or always having the game as a back-of-the-head thought, that is a personal variable, and everyone has its own value to it. Not everyone has that, and I'm not so sure it's healthy to have it permanently (which is part of the reasons I stay away from phone playing). That all comes down to personal choices and philosophy, though.

2-3 posts may be a little bit... extreme? But I do agree that some phases could be more "light" to give people some time to breathe between the hardcore cycles.

yeah knowing this site there might have been like 4 impeachments if we stuck with 16h lmao this is probably for the best XDDD

Indeed :p

[yzb25]

Indeed, removing the slots balances the D1-D2 lenghts.

Well, copypasting the vote count does the job, no? Putting it on the opening post of the thread would make it easy to use, and would prevent spam from empty accounts.

Indeed, phase lenght is very important. But about being completely drained because of a game day, or always having the game as a back-of-the-head thought, that is a personal variable, and everyone has its own value to it. Not everyone has that, and I'm not so sure it's healthy to have it permanently (which is part of the reasons I stay away from phone playing). That all comes down to personal choices and philosophy, though.

2-3 posts may be a little bit... extreme? But I do agree that some phases could be more "light" to give people some time to breathe between the hardcore cycles.


Indeed :p

I chose this approach so people could use the VC at the top of the webpage and immediately learn the current vote number, without having to refer to a separate place for the rest of the votes, and adding those 12-24 votes onto the VC.

Without that, there'd be a lot of "the VC says this guy has 4 votes but he actually has 9 while this guy has 5 votes but actually has 7". With dummy votes, the spam is a little untidy but a chain of dummy votes wouldn't really affect people's ability to read the thread, I don't think.

w.r.t. the hypothetical post restriction on cycle 2, 3 posts would be PUSHING IT. I wanna force people to leave a single post explaining a controversial anti vote and then nothing else xD.

[OzyWho]

I would like to suggest adding 1 Mafia slot.

-Town could still afford exactly 3 mislynches, except the maximum amount of days would go up from 4 to 5.
-It's Vanilla vs Vanilla, except all the special Mechanics are in favor of the town. I think that tiny boost to Mafia is in order.


By the way. Maybe add a small sentence whether or not the player can put a anti-vote additionally to a regular vote during cycle 2 or it's either one or the other.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I chose this approach so people could use the VC at the top of the webpage and immediately learn the current vote number, without having to refer to a separate place for the rest of the votes, and adding those 12-24 votes onto the VC.

Without that, there'd be a lot of "the VC says this guy has 4 votes but he actually has 9 while this guy has 5 votes but actually has 7". With dummy votes, the spam is a little untidy but a chain of dummy votes wouldn't really affect people's ability to read the thread, I don't think.

w.r.t. the hypothetical post restriction on cycle 2, 3 posts would be PUSHING IT. I wanna force people to leave a single post explaining a controversial anti vote and then nothing else xD.
Fair, your way is probably better than mine here. Dummy it is.

You are such a sadistic host xD
I love it. Just... it might be a tiny little bit exaggerated. A limit of 8 posts would be ok lol.

I would like to suggest adding 1 Mafia slot.

-Town could still afford exactly 3 mislynches, except the maximum amount of days would go up from 4 to 5.
-It's Vanilla vs Vanilla, except all the special Mechanics are in favor of the town. I think that tiny boost to Mafia is in order.


By the way. Maybe add a small sentence whether or not the player can put a anti-vote additionally to a regular vote during cycle 2 or it's either one or the other.

Town would also need to kill one more mafia, and mafia would have stronger control of the day chat.
I'm not so sure the special vote system is town-favored. I would argue that it causes more chaos and early lynches (so less accurate lynches, usually) than it really helps the town.
The doctor vote does give a little buff, but it's far from unusual to have a doctor, even a weaker form of the role, in vanilla-ish setups.

None of that justifies adding a mafia back. Do you disagree?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Do you feel comfortable with the current state of the setup, yzb25? If you do, I think it's good to be approved and put on the Queue if you wish to host it soon.

[yzb25]

Fair, your way is probably better than mine here. Dummy it is.

You are such a sadistic host xD
I love it. Just... it might be a tiny little bit exaggerated. A limit of 8 posts would be ok lol.

Maaaan I SUPPOSE I could settle for 8 posts :3.


Town would also need to kill one more mafia, and mafia would have stronger control of the day chat.
I'm not so sure the special vote system is town-favored. I would argue that it causes more chaos and early lynches (so less accurate lynches, usually) than it really helps the town.
The doctor vote does give a little buff, but it's far from unusual to have a doctor, even a weaker form of the role, in vanilla-ish setups.

None of that justifies adding a mafia back. Do you disagree?

The discussion surrounding the healvote is kinda interesting. I never really thought it would be that town-favoured or scum-favoured. I added the healvote to reward people who build a strong rep. in the early game, irrespective of alignment, though (I'd hope) that typically makes it town-favoured lol.

w.r.t. the overall balance, I agree with your points about adding a fourth mafia. I also don't support adding it back. I also agree there is strong potential for the scum to create powerful hysteria - if it's capitalized on.

However, I'm actually quite optimistic about town's hit-rate during the early lynches. I believe early(ish) reads are generally better than later reads, ignoring the impact of mechanical developments and flips. I believe people's reads peak in accuracy, and then they get manipulated into doubting themselves. That's probably a separate discussion altogether, anyway. I'm not a mafia theorist lol.


Do you feel comfortable with the current state of the setup, yzb25? If you do, I think it's good to be approved and put on the Queue if you wish to host it soon.

I'm cool with that, assuming I wouldn't host in January. I got a lot to do this month.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Yay :P

About the lynch system and early lynch accuracy, early lynches are just statistically less good than late lynches flip-wise, although they are very useful for town to get info. That's another story, though, and doesn't really affect this setup's balance in its current state.

Approved. I will put you last in the Queue; hit me up when you want to host it.

[OzyWho]

Yay :P

About the lynch system and early lynch accuracy, early lynches are just statistically less good than late lynches flip-wise, although they are very useful for town to get info. That's another story, though, and doesn't really affect this setup's balance in its current state.

Approved. I will put you last in the Queue; hit me up when you want to host it.

I really would have preferred what I said in #34.

Let's compare 3 mafias vs 4 mafias games, assuming 3 mislynches D1+D2:


3 Mafias game:



Day #
Townie Count #
Mafia Count #


1
9
3


2
6
3


3
4
2


4
3
1



4 Mafias game:



Day #
Townie Count #
Mafia Count #


1
9
4


2
6
4


3
4
3


4
3
2


5
2
1



It's not only that the 2nd one seems prettier on paper (like, always town count vs mafia count difference is 1 at LYLO in almost all setups, but not here. Here its 2)

It's also about the fact that the setup is vanilla vs vanilla, except all the special mechanics, are HEAVILY TOWN FAVORED. That should be grounds enough to add that 1 mafia slot. The game doesn't change much - the town still can afford exactly 3 mislynches.

Marshmallow Marshall yzb25
I wish you guys reconsidered it.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

That is called MYLO (Mislynch and lose), and it's perfectly standard.

The only town-favored mechanic I see there is the healvote, though. A vanilla setup (that is how I analyze this setup, more or less) is not all about how many mislynches you can afford, it's also about how many good lynches you have to pull, and how much control over the thread the Mafia has. Giving them one more member gives them one more vote. It gives them one more head. It gives them one more voice. More manipulation power. There is a huge difference between 3 and 4 mafias in a team, and it's easily visible in scumchats (when the scums use it, at least).

I still completely disagree with you on that point; ultimately, though, it's up to Yzb. If the change was to go through, I would ask to at least put one more citizen (which would basically revert the setup to its previous state, by the way), probably two.

[yzb25]

I really would have preferred what I said in #34.

Let's compare 3 mafias vs 4 mafias games, assuming 3 mislynches D1+D2:


3 Mafias game:



Day #
Townie Count #
Mafia Count #


1
9
3


2
6
3


3
4
2


4
3
1



4 Mafias game:



Day #
Townie Count #
Mafia Count #


1
9
4


2
6
4


3
4
3


4
3
2


5
2
1



It's not only that the 2nd one seems prettier on paper (like, always town count vs mafia count difference is 1 at LYLO in almost all setups, but not here. Here its 2)

It's also about the fact that the setup is vanilla vs vanilla, except all the special mechanics, are HEAVILY TOWN FAVORED. That should be grounds enough to add that 1 mafia slot. The game doesn't change much - the town still can afford exactly 3 mislynches.

Marshmallow Marshall yzb25
I wish you guys reconsidered it.

If the game feels heavily town-sided once it's played, we can always reconsider the numbers. For a good bribe, I can hook you up with the alignment you prefer.

Oh wait no MM DONT READ THIS THIS IS GROWN UP TALK.

[Kenny]

9-3 is calculated to be balanced with 1 lynch and 1 kill happening every cycle. This setup here however seems to have 2 lynches instead of 1 happening the first two days. That lynch difference is enough to throw off the balance and warrant a more scum favoring rate, from the what I can see here.

[yzb25]

9-3 is calculated to be balanced with 1 lynch and 1 kill happening every cycle. This setup here however seems to have 2 lynches instead of 1 happening the first two days. That lynch difference is enough to throw off the balance and warrant a more scum favoring rate, from the what I can see here.

It would be very helpful if you could send me balanced vanilla-ish setups you know that are at least comparable to this game.

That goes to anyone else, too.

I thought 9-3 was balanced with PRs. And the addition of PRs is generally pro town. Raw 9-3 odds are scumsided.

[yzb25]

Currently, towns need to get at least 3/6 lynches right to win. They need a 50% success rate.

[yzb25]

Currently, towns need to get at least 3/6 lynches right to win. They need a 50% success rate.

If we could see the required success rate in other balanced vanilla setups that could glean strong insight

[Kenny]

Healvotes, in comparison to normal doctors, also seem heavily scumfavoring to me.

First of, not sure if I just missed it, but I think there's no mention of the scum being excluded from the anon voting process there. Gotta add that to the setup, or noone is of the heal targets is ever gonna get attacked.

Then, taking away a doctor also takes away one town player's ability to claim tpr, or to cc. Direct CCs are a townfavoring mechanic.

On top of that, healvotes are much easier to predict than one indivdual player's choice. You are dealing with a majority here, and this majority even has to make sure to not wildly vote different players, as that would result in the final target having to be chosen by the host.

[Kenny]

It would be very helpful if you could send me balanced vanilla-ish setups you know that are at least comparable to this game.

That goes to anyone else, too.

I thought 9-3 was balanced with PRs. And the addition of PRs is generally pro town. Raw 9-3 odds are scumsided.Raw 9-3 with 1 kill and 1 lynch happening every cycle, and everyone voting entirely randomly with no deduction whatsoever, is mathematically balanced to an exact 50-50 rate.

I can't send you any comparable setups with double lynches the first 2 days anyway. I've never played something like that myself.

[OzyWho]

If we could see the required success rate in other balanced vanilla setups that could glean strong insight
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/wiki/Mountainous
The most default vanilla vs Vanilla. If you want win rates, Mafiascum wiki is the place to search.

Vanilla + 1 cop = https://www.mafiauniverse.com/wiki/Cop_Setups
Vanilla + 1 Vigi = same as above with the cop, except 1 additional citizen



Those are the most standard setups.

Hope that helps

[Kenny]

Raw 9-3 with 1 kill and 1 lynch happening every cycle, and everyone voting entirely randomly with no deduction whatsoever, is mathematically balanced to an exact 50-50 rate.

I can't send you any comparable setups with double lynches the first 2 days anyway. I've never played something like that myself.I tried looking a bit for the source where I've seen that, and while I couldn't find it, I found some other numbers on the mafiascum wiki (named "Numbers, Part 1"), suggesting completely different odds with random behavior. I myself don't agree with their numbers (they're saying 4-1 results in a 25% town win rate, objectively with random pickings I'm getting 47% however, as one example), but I remembered something else.

This 50-50 rate for 9-3 does not assume random votes, but a 50% success rate in lynching scum. I.e. the town would win once 3 scum are lynched, and the scum would win once 3 town are lynched. 2 town + 2 scum lynches puts one at 3-1.

The actual odds for a random lynch to be scum are actually lower than the odds of a random lynch being town. Sorry for that misinformation.

[yzb25]

Healvotes, in comparison to normal doctors, also seem heavily scumfavoring to me.

First of, not sure if I just missed it, but I think there's no mention of the scum being excluded from the anon voting process there. Gotta add that to the setup, or noone is of the heal targets is ever gonna get attacked.

Then, taking away a doctor also takes away one town player's ability to claim tpr, or to cc. Direct CCs are a townfavoring mechanic.

On top of that, healvotes are much easier to predict than one indivdual player's choice. You are dealing with a majority here, and this majority even has to make sure to not wildly vote different players, as that would result in the final target having to be chosen by the host.

I largely agree with what you have to say here. The healvote is much weaker than a real doctor.

Also, the healvote results are announced, fyi, so it won't ever even stop the NK. Given the results are announced, I have to allow scums to win the healvote, otherwise the vote could be used for confirmation shenanigans.

I honestly think the most town-favoured aspect of the mechanic is that naiive scums might just vote eachother, a shady scum might win by RNG, then he'll basically be outed LOL.

[yzb25]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/wiki/Mountainous
The most default vanilla vs Vanilla. If you want win rates, Mafiascum wiki is the place to search.

Vanilla + 1 cop = https://www.mafiauniverse.com/wiki/Cop_Setups
Vanilla + 1 Vigi = same as above with the cop, except 1 additional citizen



Those are the most standard setups.

Hope that helps

The "mountainous" setup backs the current arrangement though. Without PRs, it suggests there should be 12 town for 3 mafia. Our setup has 9 town for 3 mafia but extra lynches.

Their setup demands town wins only 3/7 lynches against mafia, while ours demands town wins 3/6.

[yzb25]

I tried looking a bit for the source where I've seen that, and while I couldn't find it, I found some other numbers on the mafiascum wiki (named "Numbers, Part 1"), suggesting completely different odds with random behavior. I myself don't agree with their numbers (they're saying 4-1 results in a 25% town win rate, objectively with random pickings I'm getting 47% however, as one example), but I remembered something else.

This 50-50 rate for 9-3 does not assume random votes, but a 50% success rate in lynching scum. I.e. the town would win once 3 scum are lynched, and the scum would win once 3 town are lynched. 2 town + 2 scum lynches puts one at 3-1.

The actual odds for a random lynch to be scum are actually lower than the odds of a random lynch being town. Sorry for that misinformation.

In terms of raw odds, the current arrangement is certainly scumsided. Granted, it's normal for raw odds to be quite scumsided, to a point.

[yzb25]

In terms of raw odds, the current arrangement is certainly scumsided. Granted, it's normal for raw odds to be quite scumsided, to a point.

I haven't bothered to do the full computation, but I'd safely estimate the odds to be below 30% for town

[OzyWho]

Here is done EV math on a lot of setups if y'all interested:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=The_EV_Project

I haven't bothered to do the full computation, but I'd safely estimate the odds to be around 30% for town
Interesting.
Because, for example, White Flag's EV value is close to 50%. However - the actual win rate for Town is close to 30%:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=White_Flag_(Open_Setup)

This setup is quite unorthodox though.
Effectively 3 EoD's in 1 day for 2 days - EoD's typically give more info than anything else except flips.
Anti-votes being a thing, town core and reads lists are encouraged to establish earlier than usual.
The top townie is for sure living till Day3 - highly unusual.

Yeah, I do think the mechanics help town.
But we will see I hope.

[yzb25]

Here is done EV math on a lot of setups if y'all interested:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=The_EV_Project

Interesting.
Because, for example, White Flag's EV value is close to 50%. However - the actual win rate for Town is close to 30%:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=White_Flag_(Open_Setup)

This setup is quite unorthodox though.
Effectively 3 EoD's in 1 day for 2 days - EoD's typically give more info than anything else except flips.
Anti-votes being a thing, town core and reads lists are encouraged to establish earlier than usual.
The top townie is for sure living till Day3 - highly unusual.

Yeah, I do think the mechanics help town.
But we will see I hope.

Do you believe raw odds under or over estimate a town's actual odds? Do you believe it depends on the setup?

[yzb25]

I'm guessing a major issue with trying to balance setups is a general lack of data. 7 games is not enough to get a reliable statistical trend lol

[OzyWho]

Do you believe raw odds under or over estimate a town's actual odds? Do you believe it depends on the setup?
Idk tbh

If you're interested in setup balancing, this is probably your best source:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/23714-21-Game-Design-Core-Balance-%28by-Apoc%29

At the end of the day, mafia require 4 mislynches to win and town requires 3 lynches to win.
Sounds fair to me, the game is decided by the play of the players and with no team needing to feel like the underdog.


Probably this one has a lot about balance too, though more about general setup designing: https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/16071-13-How-to-design-a-setup-that-won%E2%80%99t-make-players-want-to-blacklist-you-afterwards-%28by-mhsmith0%29

[OzyWho]

yzb25
I think these 2 setups show greatly how much players don't care if the EV balance is shifted slightly one way or the other:
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/42462-S-FM-Simple-Forum-Mafia-(9P)
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/40669-S-FM-Super-Basic-(7P)
They are identical except one has 2 more citizens than the other. But nobody seems to care, because at the end of the day - everyone got a fair chance at winning and everyone got a game.
Somehow, the fact that one setup is easier/harder for either alignment than the other - people seem to not care about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Having said that.
The default is:
# mislynches for scum to win = # scum + 1
Which is exactly what you have here.

[yzb25]

I personally feel setups are passable so long as town and mafia have, at the very least, a 30% chance of winning. Idm if a setup leans one way or the other. In fact, I think skewed setups are interesting in their own right.

[Kenny]

Do you believe raw odds under or over estimate a town's actual odds? Do you believe it depends on the setup?W.r.t. the white flag odds as well, in my opinion one can explain this heightened mafia winrate with all those calculations being done with the expectation of every player having an equal chance to be lynched.

In practice this expectation isn't met most of the time. Town members are generally easier to lynch, for once because the mafia is organized and knows their own - when there are 3 of them this means 2 more uninformed votes are required to get a mafia member lynched, compared to a town member.

The other reason I see stems from the mafia having no need to push their own opinion with their vote. They have an interest in joining or supporting any train there is as long as it's not aimed at their own. The town on the other hand needs to push their own opinion to have a fair chance, as giving the lynch decision away could potentially lead to it falling in the hands of a player who wants the majority lynched and wins with every lynch decision they willingly take.

Avoiding those two issues would probably require a town mayor who completely handles all decisions entirely on his own or a town that somehow decides all lynches in full unison without getting influenced by any individual opinions, and without allowing that to happen through unorganized votes.

[Kenny]

I.e. raw odds overestimate the town's actual odds when the premise is for everyone to act randomly. On top of them also not applying when the town is not acting randomly, with scumslips and whatnot.

[yzb25]

Update: Altered the anti-vote slightly. It now removes 2 votes rather than 1.

Just wanna make sure it does a good job building that town core ;-)

This should be the last change I make.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

If the game feels heavily town-sided once it's played, we can always reconsider the numbers. For a good bribe, I can hook you up with the alignment you prefer.

Oh wait no MM DONT READ THIS THIS IS GROWN UP TALK.

Lol :D

Kenny is right, by the way. Heal votes < doctor, especially since they only last for two days. I could get behind the addition of a Citizen, but not much more, imo. Town should have a success rate that is quite close to 50% (not exactly 50% though, that's asking too much). The healvotes do balance that, though, because if the heals are successful, they buy another mislynch to the town. The setup might be slightly scum-favored as it is right now, but not to the point of being concerning imo. Adding a citizen would probably make it slightly town-favored; at this point, it's up to the Host.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

yzb25
I think these 2 setups show greatly how much players don't care if the EV balance is shifted slightly one way or the other:
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/42462-S-FM-Simple-Forum-Mafia-(9P)
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/40669-S-FM-Super-Basic-(7P)
They are identical except one has 2 more citizens than the other. But nobody seems to care, because at the end of the day - everyone got a fair chance at winning and everyone got a game.
Somehow, the fact that one setup is easier/harder for either alignment than the other - people seem to not care about it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Having said that.
The default is:
# mislynches for scum to win = # scum + 1
Which is exactly what you have here.

Exactly. We used to do that here too, when we had too many/not enough signs : we just added/removed Citizens to setups at the last second. There is always a margin of error to setup balance, and I'd say yzb's view on 30% chance of winning is quite accurate. 30% odds are pretty borderline and should be avoided, but it's not dramatic. Plus, this setup has a special vote system that hasn't really been tested. If the game turns out to be very wild and strange because of it, the Experimental label might be to consider here, but for now I think it's pretty good like this.

The anti-vote being buffed is a pro-town thing, by the way. That's a good change.

[yzb25]

I'm free to host this for the next few months

[OzyWho]

I'm free to host this for the next few months
This setup is already next in the queue list. :|

[Marshmallow Marshall]

This setup is already next in the queue list. :|

Yep! You can host right after Stealth's game.

[yzb25]

This setup is already next in the queue list. :|

o :3

[Marshmallow Marshall]

yzb25, are you willing to host this game right now, or do you wish to postpone it? It's your turn on the Queue.

[yzb25]

yzb25, are you willing to host this game right now, or do you wish to postpone it? It's your turn on the Queue.

I'm still down to host this.

Is there a guide or smth for noob hosts explaining how to close a thread and stuff? :3

[Marshmallow Marshall]

I'm still down to host this.

Is there a guide or smth for noob hosts explaining how to close a thread and stuff? :3

There's a big clickable banner on the top of all subsections of the FM section, and it links to this : http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/45519-FM-Important-Threads-amp-Guides?p=828747&viewfull=1#post828747. Plenty of lovely threads with guides, guidelines, rules, gameplay tricks, ladder, all of that stuff. You should find most of what you want to have FM-wise in this thread. As for the Host's Guide, here it is! (link) (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/27432-Forum-Mafia-Host-s-Guide)