S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[Quick]

Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

SETUP (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/36708-S-FM-Surreptitious-The-Game-of-Spies)



http://i.imgur.com/jevbMAu.jpg






Living Players

Graveyard



2. JealousTL
3. MattZed Replaced by Unknown1234
4. Gingerape
5. Alles_Paletti Replaced by Eggy
6. Yukitaka Oni
7. Shapelog
9. Spruance Replaced by secondpassing
10. Slayer Replaced by SuperJack
11. Titus
12. PLZLEAVEDUCKK
13. Calix
14.
15. Klingoncelt


RLVG: Citizen
Never Unlucky: Mafioso
Kovath : Friendly Neighbor








GROUP 1

GROUP 2

GROUP 3



Titus
Shapelog
Unknown1234
Klingoncelt
Alles_Paletti


Calix
JealousTL
SuperJack
PLZLEAVEDUCKK
secondpassing

[TR]

Gingerape
Kovath
Yukitaka Oni
Never Unlucky






When everyone has confirmed their role, and it is a good time for me to start the game, The game will start.

EOD 1:
00:00:00:00

SOD 2:
00:00:00:00

Day 2 post (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/37572-S-FM-210-Surreptitious-The-Game-of-Spies?p=634751&viewfull=1#post634751)

End of DP: I: Day 2
00:00:00:00

EOD DP: II:
00:00:00:00

SOD 3:
00:00:00:00

NEW GROUPS WILL BE GIVEN AT SOD 3!




GROUP 1

GROUP 2



Unknown1234
Titus
Gingerape
secondpassing
Shapelog
JealousTL


PLZLEAVEDUCKK
Firebringer
Eggy
Yukitaka Oni
Klingoncelt
Calix




End of DP: I: Day 3:
01:00:00:00

[Quick]

Game will begin when 13/15 players have confirmed by

01:01:50:00

[Quick]

13/15 players have confirmed.

With 3 Groups of 5 people each, it takes 8 to pick a group. 8

1. Never Unlucky
2. JealousTL
3. MattZed
4. Gingerape
5. Alles_Paletti
6. Yukitaka Oni
7. Shapelog
8. RLVG
9. Spruance
10. Slayer
11. Titus
12. PLZLEAVEDUCKK
13. Calix
14. Kovath
15. Klingoncelt

Game Starts now.

First half of the day ends in:

01:00:00:00

[Titus]

Group 2

I'm curious as to how good Never Unlucky is. Quick said he was good. I'm curious.

[Calix]

Group 1

Guess this is the part where we talk about the setup? Not sure if I understand it correctly myself, but each group has 1 or 2 scum in it, right?

Assuming that's correct, we already have a lot of information about which scum teams AREN'T possible in the game.

[Shapelog]

Lucky number 13 started the game boys.

Let's go.

[Never Unlucky]

Group 1

Group 2

I'm curious as to how good Never Unlucky is. Quick said he was good. I'm curious.

I can't say I'm good, but I can say that I don't have a bowl haircut.

If you're curious to see how 'good' I am, wouldn't you be voting for Group 3, my group?

[Calix]

Lucky number 13 started the game boys.

Let's go.

>says he wants to start the game off
>makes no attempt aside from saying "let's go" to actually get things going

Strong.

[Calix]

Also it doesn't look like the votes are appearing on the automated vote system. Quick might want to get that checked with the admins.

[Shapelog]

Yeah if I understand it right, there is 1 scum per group. Kinda like a cell mafia (where there are 5 cells, each cell has 1.) minus having a mayor decided the order the Cells get brought up.

Also this part of the game is usually when people just post random things tills someone trys to bring discussion into the game.

ALSO IDC IF THERE ARE NEW POSTS, I DON'T WANT TO REVIEW THEM SITE!

GO AWAY, LET ME FREAKING POST THIS.

[Quick]

Vote count isn't working. Cryptonic, can you help me out here?

[Titus]

Group 1


I can't say I'm good, but I can say that I don't have a bowl haircut.

If you're curious to see how 'good' I am, wouldn't you be voting for Group 3, my group?

Nope. I find people are at their best when they aren't facing a lethal firing squad.

[Calix]

Yeah if I understand it right, there is 1 scum per group. Kinda like a cell mafia (where there are 5 cells, each cell has 1.) minus having a mayor decided the order the Cells get brought up.

Also this part of the game is usually when people just post random things tills someone trys to bring discussion into the game.

ALSO IDC IF THERE ARE NEW POSTS, I DON'T WANT TO REVIEW THEM SITE!

GO AWAY, LET ME FREAKING POST THIS.

One of the groups has to have two scum, so either the scum will be inclined to vote for that group (because mislynching + killing a member from that group helps them achieve their win con faster) or they'll want to avoid it to lower the odds of scum being lynched. I feel like the latter is more likely though.

You can turn off that if you go to 'settings' by the way.

[Shapelog]

>says he wants to start the game off
>makes no attempt aside from saying "let's go" to actually get things going

Strong.

>Complains about not wanting to do anything
>Expects me not to do anything to follow that up
>Does something to follow it up
>????
>Profit

[Quick]

If nothing else, I will keep track of the group votes.

[Calix]

>Complains about not wanting to do anything
>Expects me not to do anything to follow that up
>Does something to follow it up
>????
>Profit

Responding to my post with trolling. Noted.

Moving on. Which site do you herald from and what's the standard 'meta' over there?

[Shapelog]

Nope. I find people are at their best when they aren't facing a lethal firing squad.

I disagree.

People need a Barrel of a 50. Cal in their face everyday.

One of the groups has to have two scum, so either the scum will be inclined to vote for that group (because mislynching + killing a member from that group helps them achieve their win con faster) or they'll want to avoid it to lower the odds of scum being lynched. I feel like the latter is more likely though.

You can turn off that if you go to 'settings' by the way.

Oh they can different amounts? I just this was going to be like cell lol.

Do you find it strange that Group 1 has 3 votes already given the bold?

[Calix]

I disagree.

People need a Barrel of a 50. Cal in their face everyday.


Oh they can different amounts? I just this was going to be like cell lol.

Do you find it strange that Group 1 has 3 votes already given the bold?

If we have 4 mafia and only 3 groups then one of them HAS to have 2 scum in it.

NU and I are the only people who have voted for Group 1. Titus voted for Group 2. Given that I voted first and NU followed me (nothing unusual there) I don't consider it strange.

Why haven't you voted?

[Never Unlucky]

Yeah if I understand it right, there is 1 scum per group. Kinda like a cell mafia (where there are 5 cells, each cell has 1.) minus having a mayor decided the order the Cells get brought up.

Also this part of the game is usually when people just post random things tills someone trys to bring discussion into the game.

ALSO IDC IF THERE ARE NEW POSTS, I DON'T WANT TO REVIEW THEM SITE!

GO AWAY, LET ME FREAKING POST THIS.

This post gave me a Spruance/Mesk feeling...

http://i.giphy.com/x0xhJ5BZdm1A4.gif


Group 1

Guess this is the part where we talk about the setup? Not sure if I understand it correctly myself, but each group has 1 or 2 scum in it, right?

Assuming that's correct, we already have a lot of information about which scum teams AREN'T possible in the game.

That is correct.

You're neglecting the 'Traitor' wildcard which would nuance your post.
Nope. I find people are at their best when they aren't facing a lethal firing squad.

Why though? Why would players who are safe for the day (i.e. they can't be lynched and feel no pressure) would be at their best?

Side-note: You and I have a similar avatar, you and I have similar posting styles(from what I can see so far)... I, too, am curious to see your play.

http://i.giphy.com/3WPKHcTih1xwQ.gif

[Titus]

This post gave me a Spruance/Mesk feeling...

http://i.giphy.com/x0xhJ5BZdm1A4.gif



That is correct.

You're neglecting the 'Traitor' wildcard which would nuance your post.

Why though? Why would players who are safe for the day (i.e. they can't be lynched and feel no pressure) would be at their best?

Side-note: You and I have a similar avatar, you and I have similar posting styles(from what I can see so far)... I, too, am curious to see your play.

http://i.giphy.com/3WPKHcTih1xwQ.gif

If you were lurking, it would be a scumclaim. Removing the pressure of fucking up gets more open and honest communication (by open and honest meaning your natural state, which could be a lying gambiter but you get the idea).

[Shapelog]

Responding to my post with trolling. Noted.

Moving on. Which site do you herald from and what's the standard 'meta' over there?

Will see where that gets you.

I am from Team liquids mafia subforum. I've played like over 15 or so games there, and currently in 1 like i said. If our database wasn't screw-up, I would say you could my personal meta quite easily.

As a site, TL usually spends D1 joking for the first half, looking for tone/meta/questionable posts, and then goes into more heavy discussion later on. Its pretty active compare to other sites (usually in a decent game now a days, 40 pages per cycle) and a good chuck of people are narcissist or funny. Minus a few are try hards.

Later in the day it changes with how the games go. I will say the site as a whole focuses a bit heavy on associative reads (I personally might breezily talked about 1 thought, but I typically wait till after a scum lynch.) and not enough of filter diving over all. VCA differs from person to person, case building is pretty good when looking at those players who been there more then 5 games.

Jealous also comes from TL as well.

[Calix]

That is correct.

You're neglecting the 'Traitor' wildcard which would nuance your post.

Forgot that was a thing.

20 minutes in and I can already tell that this is going to be one of those games where I have the setup open in a separate tab 24/7.

[Titus]

Forgot that was a thing.

20 minutes in and I can already tell that this is going to be one of those games where I have the setup open in a separate tab 24/7.

Oh you think this is complicated? I eat this setup for breakfast.

[Titus]

Never Unlucky, Do you perform better under pressure?

[Calix]

Will see where that gets you.

I am from Team liquids mafia subforum. I've played like over 15 or so games there, and currently in 1 like i said. If our database wasn't screw-up, I would say you could my personal meta quite easily.

As a site, TL usually spends D1 joking for the first half, looking for tone/meta/questionable posts, and then goes into more heavy discussion later on. Its pretty active compare to other sites (usually in a decent game now a days, 40 pages per cycle) and a good chuck of people are narcissist or funny. Minus a few are try hards.

Heads up, our ISO feature is a bit awkward to use, but we have an automated vote counter which is just at the top of the thread.

How D1 goes varies a bit on this site. Sometimes you get a lot of trolling/ shit-posting to start, but usually we have RVS/ setup spec/ meta/ odd posts for the start.

Not sure how this game will go at all, given that we have a lot of off-site players put together with some mod players and casuals. It's why I want to clear up any possible meta clashes sooner rather than later.


Later in the day it changes with how the games go. I will say the site as a whole focuses a bit heavy on associative reads (I personally might breezily talked about 1 thought, but I typically wait till after a scum lynch.) and not enough of filter diving over all. VCA differs from person to person, case building is pretty good when looking at those players who been there more then 5 games.

Jealous also comes from TL as well.

If you're referring to pre-flips, then I'm personally not a fan of those unless I'm looking at independent scum-reads.

I'll keep the rest in mind.

[Calix]

Oh you think this is complicated? I eat this setup for breakfast.

I have next-to-no experience with these kind of setups as it seems like something you'd find on MS more than here, so yeah I do feel like I am fumbling around.

[Quick]

Vote count reset. Try again.

[Never Unlucky]

Oh you think this is complicated? I eat this setup for breakfast.

Cocky, eh? I like this guy already.


Never Unlucky, Do you perform better under pressure?

I become the saltiest bitch (Though Duck is a serious contestant) you'll ever get to play with and think out loud.


If you were lurking, it would be a scumclaim.

I'm not following you.


Removing the pressure of fucking up gets more open and honest communication (by open and honest meaning your natural state, which could be a lying gambiter but you get the idea).
Fair enough.

[Calix]

Vote count reset. Try again.

Group 1

[Never Unlucky]

Not sure how this game will go at all, given that we have a lot of off-site players put together with some mod players and casuals. It's why I want to clear up any possible meta clashes sooner rather than later.

Which one am I?




Vote count reset. Try again.
Group 1

[Shapelog]

If we have 4 mafia and only 3 groups then one of them HAS to have 2 scum in it.

NU and I are the only people who have voted for Group 1. Titus voted for Group 2. Given that I voted first and NU followed me (nothing unusual there) I don't consider it strange.

Why haven't you voted?
Oh there is 4 mafia players rofl. I thought this was /m13.

Oh I miscounted then. I scrolled up too fast.

AS for not voting, I am honestly just going to put the vote on what ever group has the most votes when I get off (since I be back tomorrow if needed to change it), unless a certain player from a group really sticks out to me before then. That way we are more likely to get a group elected since we need 8. The only person I personally know is Jealous, and I never actually played with him IIRC (I hosted/cohosted games with him in it, and gave pointers etc.) so meta is kinda thrown out of the picture for me.

I also see no special benefit of trying to rush a group into the voting stage.

This post gave me a Spruance/Mesk feeling...

http://i.giphy.com/x0xhJ5BZdm1A4.gif



That is correct.

You're neglecting the 'Traitor' wildcard which would nuance your post.

Why though? Why would players who are safe for the day (i.e. they can't be lynched and feel no pressure) would be at their best?

Side-note: You and I have a similar avatar, you and I have similar posting styles(from what I can see so far)... I, too, am curious to see your play.

http://i.giphy.com/3WPKHcTih1xwQ.gif
There are people like me in this game?
YES!

(I actually get better later in the game, much like a AD carry)

http://i.imgur.com/l2Cmq2c.gif
Oh fuck, Traitors are in this game. I hate them.

[Titus]

Group 2

Never Unlucky, You accepted a challenge to be your best. Lurking is not your best. You wouldn't even be trying, thus scumclaim.

Second, salty hmmm. I tend to be more of the angrily annoyed variety. I'm sure some of you can attest.

Third, I'm a woman.

[Quick]

Vote count works now.

[Calix]

Which one am I?

You fall under the category that wears PTB's helmet.


Oh there is 4 mafia players rofl. I thought this was /m13.

Oh I miscounted then. I scrolled up too fast.

AS for not voting, I am honestly just going to put the vote on what ever group has the most votes when I get off (since I be back tomorrow if needed to change it), unless a certain player from a group really sticks out to me before then. That way we are more likely to get a group elected since we need 8. The only person I personally know is Jealous, and I never actually played with him IIRC (I hosted/cohosted games with him in it, and gave pointers etc.) so meta is kinda thrown out of the picture for me.

Content aside, the way you presented your vote decision feels townie to me.

Might be how you talk but I'm too lazy to check for myself so I'm just going to roll with it.

(it's too early to tell how easily we'll be able to gain a majority vote for groups so can't really comment there)


I tend to be more of the angrily annoyed variety. I'm sure some of you can attest.

I can confirm this.

[Never Unlucky]

Oh there is 4 mafia players rofl. I thought this was /m13.

Oh I miscounted then. I scrolled up too fast.

Excuses, ok...


There are people like me in this game?
YES!

No, it's not a good thing.


(I actually get better later in the game, much like a AD carry)

League of Legends loser, lol.


http://i.imgur.com/l2Cmq2c.gif
Oh fuck, Traitors are in this game. I hate them.

Happy to see another person using GIFs.


Group 2

Never Unlucky, You accepted a challenge to be your best. Lurking is not your best. You wouldn't even be trying, thus scumclaim.[/vote]

I'm lurking, huh?

[QUOTE]Second, salty hmmm. I tend to be more of the angrily annoyed variety. I'm sure some of you can attest.

Third, I'm a woman.

I'm turned off.

[Shapelog]

Oh you think this is complicated? I eat this setup for breakfast.
Hidden joke here,
Breakfast SETS you UP for the rest of the day.

Heads up, our ISO feature is a bit awkward to use, but we have an automated vote counter which is just at the top of the thread.

How D1 goes varies a bit on this site. Sometimes you get a lot of trolling/ shit-posting to start, but usually we have RVS/ setup spec/ meta/ odd posts for the start.

Not sure how this game will go at all, given that we have a lot of off-site players put together with some mod players and casuals. It's why I want to clear up any possible meta clashes sooner rather than later.



If you're referring to pre-flips, then I'm personally not a fan of those unless I'm looking at independent scum-reads.

I'll keep the rest in mind.
Oh you guys have RVS...That explains a lot rn.

It is also worth noting I have played 2 games on INTP Fourm's and 1 on OMGUS. OMGUS one is old though.

Personally I never founded the benefit of RVS. Maybe once in a blue moon, you might get a correct scum read due to pressure that results from it. But A) Mafia knows about it, B)Decent mafia can Counter it IMO, C)Mafia gets careful due to it, etc. At least in my opinion they do.

Personally I like approaching my sus. player with questions (which I try to predict the answer each alignment would say towards it) on d1 to determine their alignment better. Sometimes I am aggressive with it early on, other times I am more passive.


Not sure how this game will go at all, given that we have a lot of off-site players put together with some mod players and casuals. It's why I want to clear up any possible meta clashes sooner rather than later.
Reasonable enough

If you're referring to pre-flips, then I'm personally not a fan of those unless I'm looking at independent scum-reads.
Me either, that is why I told the newbies in the last newbie game i host how i felt about them and them doing them N1 without no scum flipping.

[Titus]

Excuses, ok...



No, it's not a good thing.



League of Legends loser, lol.



Happy to see another person using GIFs.

[QUOTE=Titus;633302]Group 2

Never Unlucky, You accepted a challenge to be your best. Lurking is not your best. You wouldn't even be trying, thus scumclaim.[/vote]

I'm lurking, huh?



I'm turned off.

No. I did not not say you were lurking.
Context: I said if you lurked it would be a scumclaim.
You: huh?
Me: *explains why Lurking would be a scumclaim*

[Calix]

Oh you guys have RVS...That explains a lot rn.

It is also worth noting I have played 2 games on INTP Fourm's and 1 on OMGUS. OMGUS one is old though.

Personally I never founded the benefit of RVS. Maybe once in a blue moon, you might get a correct scum read due to pressure that results from it. But A) Mafia knows about it, B)Decent mafia can Counter it IMO, C)Mafia gets careful due to it, etc. At least in my opinion they do.

Mostly I just use it because of a) it's a reliable way of getting a conversation going and b) tradition. I don't consider it something that would find scum by themselves unless said scum are inexperienced/ terrible under pressure.


Personally I like approaching my sus. player with questions (which I try to predict the answer each alignment would say towards it) on d1 to determine their alignment better. Sometimes I am aggressive with it early on, other times I am more passive.

What situations would determine wherever you are more aggressive/ passive?

[Titus]

Hidden joke here,
Breakfast SETS you UP for the rest of the day.

Oh you guys have RVS...That explains a lot rn.

It is also worth noting I have played 2 games on INTP Fourm's and 1 on OMGUS. OMGUS one is old though.

Personally I never founded the benefit of RVS. Maybe once in a blue moon, you might get a correct scum read due to pressure that results from it. But A) Mafia knows about it, B)Decent mafia can Counter it IMO, C)Mafia gets careful due to it, etc. At least in my opinion they do.

Personally I like approaching my sus. player with questions (which I try to predict the answer each alignment would say towards it) on d1 to determine their alignment better. Sometimes I am aggressive with it early on, other times I am more passive.


Reasonable enough

Me either, that is why I told the newbies in the last newbie game i host how i felt about them and them doing them N1 without no scum flipping.

Hi Professor.

None of us are your students. :wondering:

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I want to say a few things. One I am slightly intoxicated so forgive me for anything incredibly stupid that is more unintelligent than my normal vernacular. I am slightly perturbed that quick has used the hidden mechanic as a joke/personal gripe towards me. I am hardclaiming that I DO NOT KNOW MY ALIGNMENT. To paraphrase I was "knocked unconscious by a rival spy and when I awoke they had stolen my identity and I forgot who I was."

Not only am I a SELF AWARE "miller" per say, but I DO NOT KNOW MY ROLE OR ALIGNMENT UNTIL THE END OF NIGHT 1.

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.

This game is going to be extremely annoying for me because I feel it is as if I am culted. If I play as if im town (71.4%), and I lynch a scum, then find out I am actually scum tonight, I will be fucking livid.

I do want to say that if I had to guess I am a town role because I do not expect that quick assumed me, and maybe others?, would claim this right away and if a sheriff green checks a mafia that is basically gg for town.

WHY DOES HE START THE GAME WHEN I GO OUT TO DINNER.

-vote group3

[Quick]

I'm not saying I have a problem with what is happening in the thread right now, but keep ad homs to a min please. I want a clean game, not a shitfest.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Never Unlucky, Do you perform better under pressure?

Haven't caught up yet, need to get water before I can fucking reading comprension, but I will say that the #1 thing players from other sites SHOULD do as town, is ask about the playstyle of new players. I hard townread titus for this, probably more than warratns a strong town read.

Also titus=symmetra?

[Calix]

So Duck's claiming to have some kind of negative-utility rolecard that would mean that he essentially invalidates everything he says as NAI until Day 2.

It's not a mechanic that I've ever heard of before and this is meant to be 'balanced' so I'm not sure wherever a) he's telling the truth or b) this is one of his insane conspiracy theories that he's made up as part of a convoluted plan.

Both are equally possible when it comes to him.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

So Duck's claiming to have some kind of negative-utility rolecard that would mean that he essentially invalidates everything he says as NAI until Day 2.

It's not a mechanic that I've ever heard of before and this is meant to be 'balanced' so I'm not sure wherever a) he's telling the truth or b) this is one of his insane conspiracy theories that he's made up as part of a convoluted plan.

Both are equally possible when it comes to him.

Here is what we know:

1) If I am lieing, I am always mafia and doing this
2) I will likely have cooridnated this in night chat already and my partner will be going along with it in some way or fashion?

If you can find town or mafia motivation in what happened to me share it, and use it for or against me.

I have stated many times in previous games that I DO NOT plan my opening posts or plays. I do everything as it happens, if you think that is alignment indicative then read me in that way, because guess what I can't fucking tell you if you are right or wrong about me.
Calix Personally I feel our group would be bad to select because this site has a bad meta where activity is read as town. I would argue my activity and yours would make us "immune", do you agree with this, and what are your thoughts on that?

[Titus]

So Duck's claiming to have some kind of negative-utility rolecard that would mean that he essentially invalidates everything he says as NAI until Day 2.

It's not a mechanic that I've ever heard of before and this is meant to be 'balanced' so I'm not sure wherever a) he's telling the truth or b) this is one of his insane conspiracy theories that he's made up as part of a convoluted plan.

Both are equally possible when it comes to him.

There's two choices.
1) Vote Group 2 to lynch him to remove the hassle.
2) Ignore him and document changes. Compare the second version to his towngame and the first.

[Shapelog]

Might be how you talk but I'm too lazy to check for myself so I'm just going to roll with it.

(it's too early to tell how easily we'll be able to gain a majority vote for groups so can't really comment there)


Eh let me know if you want recent games (either from the site or from my games) since I got that tab open playing another game. I sure we can share past game links and such.

As for the groups, eh, depends on how the thread feels honestly. If they rest of the players have a mob mentality, then it will reach it prob by tomorrow for me in my timezone.


Excuses, ok...



No, it's not a good thing.



League of Legends loser, lol.



Happy to see another person using GIFs.

[QUOTE=Titus;633302]Group 2

Never Unlucky, You accepted a challenge to be your best. Lurking is not your best. You wouldn't even be trying, thus scumclaim.[/vote]

I'm lurking, huh?



I'm turned off.
Lol, I never have played a moba, I just know the terms. Why isn't it a good thing for there to be people how i act?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

There's two choices.
1) Vote Group 2 to lynch him to remove the hassle.
2) Ignore him and document changes. Compare the second version to his towngame and the first.

While I really liked your opening, I strongly agree with your point 2.

If you want to lynch me over the "mechanic", that I can understand. But to "ignore" me is one of the most INSANE things I have EVER heard. MY READS ARE 100% UNBIASED. Even If I am lynched, YOU should be paying attention to my reads. Everything I give will be from a town scum hunting perspective. You might not agree with the things I read, but to ignore them is one of the most anti-town things to do.

[Quick]

Eh let me know if you want recent games (either from the site or from my games) since I got that tab open playing another game. I sure we can share past game links and such.


RULES OF CONDUCT:
NO QUOTING ANYTHING FROM OUTSIDE THE GAME

Reread the rules.

[Calix]

Here is what we know:

1) If I am lieing, I am always mafia and doing this
2) I will likely have cooridnated this in night chat already and my partner will be going along with it in some way or fashion?

If you can find town or mafia motivation in what happened to me share it, and use it for or against me.

I have stated many times in previous games that I DO NOT plan my opening posts or plays. I do everything as it happens, if you think that is alignment indicative then read me in that way, because guess what I can't fucking tell you if you are right or wrong about me.
@Calix (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=27116) Personally I feel our group would be bad to select because this site has a bad meta where activity is read as town. I would argue my activity and yours would make us "immune", do you agree with this, and what are your thoughts on that?

1. Agreed because it makes no sense for town to try and write off their contributions from square one as "null"
2. Wait, did the mafia even have a N0 chat?

Voting for my own group means that I have little influence over who gets lynched today and if there's something I know, it's that nobody gives a flying fuck about what you have to say when you can't vote.

So hell fucking no am I doing that shit anytime soon, regardless of how we're read.


There's two choices.
1) Vote Group 2 to lynch him to remove the hassle.
2) Ignore him and document changes. Compare the second version to his towngame and the first.

Second option makes more sense. If anything, the unknown element in Group 2 makes it a hazard.

On second thoughts, I'm going to switch to Group 3. This is based on nothing but meta as I've played with 4/5 of the players in that block so I have a better chance of detecting which 1-2 of them are scum.

Group 3

[Kovath]

I want to say a few things. One I am slightly intoxicated so forgive me for anything incredibly stupid that is more unintelligent than my normal vernacular. I am slightly perturbed that quick has used the hidden mechanic as a joke/personal gripe towards me. I am hardclaiming that I DO NOT KNOW MY ALIGNMENT. To paraphrase I was "knocked unconscious by a rival spy and when I awoke they had stolen my identity and I forgot who I was."

Not only am I a SELF AWARE "miller" per say, but I DO NOT KNOW MY ROLE OR ALIGNMENT UNTIL THE END OF NIGHT 1.

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.

This game is going to be extremely annoying for me because I feel it is as if I am culted. If I play as if im town (71.4%), and I lynch a scum, then find out I am actually scum tonight, I will be fucking livid.

I do want to say that if I had to guess I am a town role because I do not expect that quick assumed me, and maybe others?, would claim this right away and if a sheriff green checks a mafia that is basically gg for town.

WHY DOES HE START THE GAME WHEN I GO OUT TO DINNER.

-vote group3

Why were you originally planning to vote your own group?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

1. Agreed because it makes no sense for town to try and write off their contributions from square one as "null"
2. Wait, did the mafia even have a N0 chat?

Voting for my own group means that I have little influence over who gets lynched today and if there's something I know, it's that nobody gives a flying fuck about what you have to say when you can't vote.

So hell fucking no am I doing that shit anytime soon, regardless of how we're read.



Second option makes more sense. If anything, the unknown element in Group 2 makes it a hazard.

On second thoughts, I'm going to switch to Group 3. This is based on nothing but meta as I've played with 4/5 of the players in that block so I have a better chance of detecting which 1-2 of them are scum.

Group 3

zzzzz I hope I am mafia, because this post has calix as my new top town. Her thinking literally has mimic'ed mine. While this is not exactly indicative that I am the same alignment as her (assuming I am infact town), it does show that she wants to be able to vote on people SHE KNOWS HOW TO READ. Town perspective from calix so far IMO.

Also, I want to say Calix not bandwagoning titus when she was gifted an option is potentially a

1) calix is town, titus is mafia
2) calix is town, titus is town and open minded (what I am slightly leaning towards)
3) calix is mafia WITH ME, titus is town.

I don't think I am ever mafia with titus based on this opening reaction by her.

[Titus]

While I really liked your opening, I strongly agree with your point 2.

If you want to lynch me over the "mechanic", that I can understand. But to "ignore" me is one of the most INSANE things I have EVER heard. MY READS ARE 100% UNBIASED. Even If I am lynched, YOU should be paying attention to my reads. Everything I give will be from a town scum hunting perspective. You might not agree with the things I read, but to ignore them is one of the most anti-town things to do.

The thing is, I have to take your word that you're trying to be town while not being town. You said you'd be salty if you lynched scum, that is an admitted bias against lynching scum.

The comparison process serves to vet you to see if you're true to what you're saying today.

[Titus]

zzzzz I hope I am mafia, because this post has calix as my new top town. Her thinking literally has mimic'ed mine. While this is not exactly indicative that I am the same alignment as her (assuming I am infact town), it does show that she wants to be able to vote on people SHE KNOWS HOW TO READ. Town perspective from calix so far IMO.

Also, I want to say Calix not bandwagoning titus when she was gifted an option is potentially a

1) calix is town, titus is mafia
2) calix is town, titus is town and open minded (what I am slightly leaning towards)
3) calix is mafia WITH ME, titus is town.

I don't think I am ever mafia with titus based on this opening reaction by her.

So you're one of the guys who thinks playstyle is AI.

Got it. Even if you're town, I want not to sheep you.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Why were you originally planning to vote your own group?

I have never been mis lynched, and I feel that I am good at making town circles and displaying my alignment. Calix is an active player and will provide content regardless of how right or wrong she will be. If it turns out we are both town as our alignments should be indicated by our play (mine on day2, hers now) then we have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance to hit the mafia based on rng alone.

I feel stronger about my town defending skills than I do my day 1 scum hunting skills. Look at all of my combined FM games, I have perfect town circles(the only mafia in my town circle past day 1 in ANY fm game, is mattzed - qt.314). I felt my group was a good chance to be able to town circle and scum hunt on POE rather than scum motivation which I have shown that I am hit or miss on. Play to my strengths.

I am mainly posting this for everyone, as I have discussed this with kovath in extensive detail on skype.

[Shapelog]

Not only am I a SELF AWARE "miller" per say, but I DO NOT KNOW MY ROLE OR ALIGNMENT UNTIL THE END OF NIGHT 1.

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.

This game is going to be extremely annoying for me because I feel it is as if I am culted. If I play as if im town (71.4%), and I lynch a scum, then find out I am actually scum tonight, I will be fucking livid.

I do want to say that if I had to guess I am a town role because I do not expect that quick assumed me, and maybe others?, would claim this right away and if a sheriff green checks a mafia that is basically gg for town.

WHY DOES HE START THE GAME WHEN I GO OUT TO DINNER.

-vote group3

Things about this post I do not like:

This game is going to be extremely annoying for me because I feel it is as if I am culted. If I play as if im town (71.4%), and I lynch a scum, then find out I am actually scum tonight, I will be fucking livid.

I do want to say that if I had to guess I am a town role because I do not expect that quick assumed me, and maybe others?, would claim this right away and if a sheriff green checks a mafia that is basically gg for town.
If that was the case, you (if u are telling the thruth) would be unaware IMO. Aside that, Never rely on Host WIFOM period in the game (if u don't know what WIFOM means, it means Wine in front of me aka useless talk.)

Also the top part is prob. the best situation you could be in if you were scum in this case.

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.
So you acknowledge the fact that there are new players, then want to lynch who ever the hell that guy is for something those said new players aren't going to understand? Can you please be a bit more specif about RLVG's meta?

What do you think of my posts since i consider myself a little troll?


I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG.
You don't need to know your alignment to not vote your own group... You really don't. Yes, you might lynch scum if you are actually aware miller who is also a basically a mole without a def. alignment. Just look for sus. and be normal.

Besides, if you care about if you hit mafia as mafia, and that is stopping you from voting your group, how is voting someone who not here any better for that?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

So you're one of the guys who thinks playstyle is AI.

Got it. Even if you're town, I want not to sheep you.

I am one of those guys who rather keep an known mafia alive who is producing town with out of the box solid reads than to keep a useless lurker town alive. I don't want you to ever sheep me, I want you to listen to what I have to say, use your brain, and then solve the game with me. The fact you even bring up that you are thinking about sheeping people is making my town read on you drop even quicker. Which is slightly scummy of me to be flipping on my top town read who happens to scum read me.

To the taking my word for it. You have to understand me. I live and die by my town roles. If I had to pick I would be town 90% of the time, mafia 10% of the time, neutral never. Not only do the statistics (71.4%, less if the person viewing this is town, more if the person viewing is mafia) say I am town, but I WANT to be town. I rather play a town agenda and try to solve the game. If I find out tomorrow that I am mafia, guess what I already solved the game and it isn't the same for me.

[Never Unlucky]

Lol, I never have played a moba, I just know the terms. Why isn't it a good thing for there to be people how i act?

You'll see it for yourself when Spruance'll "post".


Voting for my own group means that I have little influence over who gets lynched today and if there's something I know, it's that nobody gives a flying fuck about what you have to say when you can't vote.

No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.



Second option makes more sense. If anything, the unknown element in Group 2 makes it a hazard.

On second thoughts, I'm going to switch to Group 3. This is based on nothing but meta as I've played with 4/5 of the players in that block so I have a better chance of detecting which 1-2 of them are scum.

Group 3

I agree with this. Group 3 is composed of 0 new players/immigrants. It's a much better bet.

Group 3

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Things about this post I do not like:

If that was the case, you (if u are telling the thruth) would be unaware IMO. Aside that, Never rely on Host WIFOM period in the game (if u don't know what WIFOM means, it means Wine in front of me aka useless talk.)

Also the top part is prob. the best situation you could be in if you were scum in this case.

So you acknowledge the fact that there are new players, then want to lynch who ever the hell that guy is for something those said new players aren't going to understand? Can you please be a bit more specif about RLVG's meta?

What do you think of my posts since i consider myself a little troll?


You don't need to know your alignment to not vote your own group... You really don't. Yes, you might lynch scum if you are actually aware miller who is also a basically a mole without a def. alignment. Just look for sus. and be normal.

Besides, if you care about if you hit mafia as mafia, and that is stopping you from voting your group, how is voting someone who not here any better for that?

My post quality is going to be weak for the next several hours, I say this not as an excuse, but I will need to be more coherent to analyze posts by a player I have never seen before.

I am relying on host meta because the setup said the game would be BALANCED. A mafia miller is unfair with the possible roles and setup, you can disagree with me, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.

RLVG is a fine player, however in cat and mouse he ONLY posted troll comments and then went MIA for several days. Then I saw one or two more games where I believe he did not post at all? Other players who were in those games can comment on that, and what they think of RLVG's recent posting habits. If he steps his play up this game this is all out the window obviously.

I just discussed my thoughts on voting my own group. To your point, I like to play with skilled players who are willing to improve. In a recent game (qt.3.14) I went against lynching a very likely mafia because I respected their play and wanted to continue playing with them over other players who could have been mafia that I do not feel were playing as well. In this particular case I feel like lynching someone who is not going to post benefits the game experience whether or not it helps or hurts me in the game.

[Calix]

I should probably put in my two cents on Duck's meta.

A. He's prone to bragging about his FM play, references his own meta every other post, and flips on his reads a lot. This is NAI for him.

B. He also loves his insane gambits...which is also NAI. Textbook example of this is in Instant Mafia 2.0 (only 700-odd posts and I think it showcases Duck's usual play very well)

C. To call him an emotional player is the equivalent of calling the Prime Minster "fairly well-known in politics"

Thank me later.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You'll see it for yourself when Spruance'll "post".



No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.




I agree with this. Group 3 is composed of 0 new players/immigrants. It's a much better bet.

Group 3

I think this is a HARD TOWN SLIP from NU. (Jesus christ with my town reads).

"flip a coin on mckd(that is me) alignment."

THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THIS GAME WHO KNOWS MY ALIGNMENT IS THE MAFIA. Whether it is 3+me, or 4 people who know each other, they know my alignment. I think the way NU worded this post was NATURAL, not forced or fabricated and was completely TOWN.

also my vote fucked up at the start. Literally fuck up my vote in some way eveyr fucking game. group 3

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I should probably put in my two cents on Duck's meta.

A. He's prone to bragging about his FM play, references his own meta every other post, and flips on his reads a lot. This is NAI for him.

B. He also loves his insane gambits...which is also NAI. Textbook example of this is in Instant Mafia 2.0 (only 700-odd posts and I think it showcases Duck's usual play very well)

C. To call him an emotional player is the equivalent of calling the Prime Minster "fairly well-known in politics"

Thank me later.

FOllow up if you dont mind.

Do you feel that I would use this "duck meta" to manipulate others based on what they know of my meta, or is it more of my style and do what I think could be good based on the situation.

Keep in mind in WoM, as mafia I tried to fake rage to match my town play.

If you think the first option, you said my play is NAI, which means you should believe that I am being earnest? After WoM, on skype you pm'ed me it was obvious when I was faking my "gambit" or rage.

I don't know if i worded this in a way that made sense to what I was asking.

[Calix]

You'll see it for yourself when Spruance'll "post".

Spruance isn't as difficult to read as you make him out to be.


No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

[quote]Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.

Why are you discouraging lynches/ votes on us this early and categorising players like that? Given that most players aren't aware of who the 'difficult' targets will be, there's no reason that anyone should be flagging up XYZ as "don't lynch"

Explain why you did that or I'll suspect that you're trying to dissuade the newer scum players from getting into my line of sight.

It doesn't help that you've sheeped my vote on two occasions already and it's not even 100 posts into the game. I haven't even warmed up yet because it's 1am in the bloody morning.

[Shapelog]

Forgot to link these:



My tone for starts.

When I am aggressive, I am usually being a smart arse about it. Not in a bad way, just witty. And a course those posts tend to feel aggressive due to the post style.

Passive i am more mellow and jokey. Kinda like when I ask about what you make out of the voting so far on page 1.

it honestly very obv once the game gets going, IMO.
[QUOTE=Titus;633312]Hi Professor.

None of us are your students. :wondering:
Hi Ms.Titus,

I don't want your witty remarks. :weed:

Well i do if they hold alignment related info in them.

Here is what we know:

1) If I am lieing, I am always mafia and doing this
2) I will likely have cooridnated this in night chat already and my partner will be going along with it in some way or fashion?

If you can find town or mafia motivation in what happened to me share it, and use it for or against me.

I have stated many times in previous games that I DO NOT plan my opening posts or plays. I do everything as it happens, if you think that is alignment indicative then read me in that way, because guess what I can't fucking tell you if you are right or wrong about me.
Lol, the way you are talking about it seems a bit nature honesty.
At least in this post.



Calix Personally I feel our group would be bad to select because this site has a bad meta where activity is read as town. I would argue my activity and yours would make us "immune", do you agree with this, and what are your thoughts on that?
Lol then share that with the thread.

I will also chip in and say activity does not matter with my alignment, since i post like my sig. suggests.

[JealousTL]

Open request:

I've heard a few people stating their opinions for and against meta-reads. Since I have no experience with anyone here, will people be vigilant about meta? I am not a big fan of reading meta myself, but in this scenario where people have a lot of experience with one another, it could be a valuable tool. Sifting through the "he said, she said" is a tedious task but I have done it before to some success. So, in short, my request is that if you see something that rubs you the wrong way about someone in reference to their meta, please post it and be ready to defend it against the target's scummates. From what I see in the list of participants, the majority of you should be familiar with one another, so scum /should/ be in the minority if defending one another on meta reads.

[JealousTL]

Also, shit, one of my former posts somehow didn't post when I hit post. I will have to draft it again because it had pertinent information.

[Shapelog]

I actually just thought of something about Duck, But if I share it, it might change the idea since it would become invalid.

[Quick]

I am somewhat lenient with this rule, but there is a rule about quote manipulation. It is there so people are not making fake quotes saying someone said something they did not - ment to eliminate malicious quoting techniques, but I DO expect people to clean up their quote tags when they preview their posts.

So please, clean up quotes before making them, especially if you already see that someone misquoted the post you are quoting.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I actually just thought of something about Duck, But if I share it, it might change the idea since it would become invalid.

Might as well share it, that or twiddle our thumbs and discuss nothing...

[Calix]

FOllow up if you dont mind.

Do you feel that I would use this "duck meta" to manipulate others based on what they know of my meta, or is it more of my style and do what I think could be good based on the situation.

Keep in mind in WoM, as mafia I tried to fake rage to match my town play.

If you think the first option, you said my play is NAI, which means you should believe that I am being earnest? After WoM, on skype you pm'ed me it was obvious when I was faking my "gambit" or rage.

I don't know if i worded this in a way that made sense to what I was asking.

You do use it to manipulate others because if there's one thing you adore, it's being widely town-read. Hence why this move of yours stands out as it does.

The main advantages fake-claiming No-Alignment has as scum is to take yourself off the table for the lynch. However, mafia in that position would want their group voted so that the chances of a ML are higher. Also you could have drawn less attention to yourself by simply voting for a different group and thus save yourself that way.

However it's an extremely troll mechanic and I don't get why it would be included in this setup.

If I take it at face value, you are telling the truth. However, I'm not because I fully expect that this is Stage 1 of your WIFOM9000 master plan and that another layer is going to smack me in the face with the subtlety of a whale flopping out of water.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You do use it to manipulate others because if there's one thing you adore, it's being widely town-read. Hence why this move of yours stands out as it does.

The main advantages fake-claiming No-Alignment has as scum is to take yourself off the table for the lynch. However, mafia in that position would want their group voted so that the chances of a ML are higher. Also you could have drawn less attention to yourself by simply voting for a different group and thus save yourself that way.

However it's an extremely troll mechanic and I don't get why it would be included in this setup.

If I take it at face value, you are telling the truth. However, I'm not because I fully expect that this is Stage 1 of your WIFOM9000 master plan and that another layer is going to smack me in the face with the subtlety of a whale flopping out of water.

Meh, I agree with this analysis, minus the ending paragraph.
Kovath You asked a question then went back to your abyss. There is no netural in this setup, so WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?

[Calix]

Open request:

I've heard a few people stating their opinions for and against meta-reads. Since I have no experience with anyone here, will people be vigilant about meta? I am not a big fan of reading meta myself, but in this scenario where people have a lot of experience with one another, it could be a valuable tool. Sifting through the "he said, she said" is a tedious task but I have done it before to some success. So, in short, my request is that if you see something that rubs you the wrong way about someone in reference to their meta, please post it and be ready to defend it against the target's scummates. From what I see in the list of participants, the majority of you should be familiar with one another, so scum /should/ be in the minority if defending one another on meta reads.

This post makes no sense. If someone uses a meta reference to scum-read a player, then the mafia are going to jump in to defend that player?

Why do you think that scum would respond like that? The player would just retaliate against the meta read as they know their own meta better than anyone else's, no?

[JealousTL]

So the post that got eaten by the forum (pardon my noobness) was directed at an earlier post Calix but is mostly @Everyone because it pertains to how we should approach this game as town.

Calix said that there is going to be a 2/1/1 split of scum in the groups. That is not true. As I was reading the setup I noticed the conspicuous absence of an explanation as to how groups are chosen. After PMing Quick about it, I found out that the group distribution is random; this means we have to assume that it was done independently of alignment. If you don't trust me, contact him about it either in the setup thread, PM or QT (I'm not certain but it seems he prefers QT?).

This means we can't know if the groups are 2/0/2 or 2/1/1 or 3/0/1 or even 4/0/0. I'm sure many of you can understand the implications of this, but here are a few of them:

1. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches don't hit any scum, that does not necessitate that scum exists in that group.
2. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches we hit a fair amount of scum but the group does not re-assimilate into the other groups as per the rules, do not be surprised. We need to hunt further.
3. Scum could potentially have a lot more power in terms of selecting which group should be lynched or who is to be lynched than in a 2/1/1 set-up. Be conscious of bussing or subtle protection.

In short, please do not operate on the assumption that groups are split 2/1/1. Whatever that means to you, please share your thoughts.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This post makes no sense. If someone uses a meta reference to scum-read a player, then the mafia are going to jump in to defend that player?

Why do you think that scum would respond like that? The player would just retaliate against the meta read as they know their own meta better than anyone else's, no?

I know people hate when others do this, but I am a question stealer.

Personally I think mafia are more likely to defend the player in these scenarios because it is an easy way to bullshit some strong reason to town defend the other, and make the accuser look dumb with weak evidence.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

So the post that got eaten by the forum (pardon my noobness) was directed at an earlier post Calix but is mostly @Everyone because it pertains to how we should approach this game as town.

Calix said that there is going to be a 2/1/1 split of scum in the groups. That is not true. As I was reading the setup I noticed the conspicuous absence of an explanation as to how groups are chosen. After PMing Quick about it, I found out that the group distribution is random; this means we have to assume that it was done independently of alignment. If you don't trust me, contact him about it either in the setup thread, PM or QT (I'm not certain but it seems he prefers QT?).

This means we can't know if the groups are 2/0/2 or 2/1/1 or 3/0/1 or even 4/0/0. I'm sure many of you can understand the implications of this, but here are a few of them:

1. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches don't hit any scum, that does not necessitate that scum exists in that group.
2. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches we hit a fair amount of scum but the group does not re-assimilate into the other groups as per the rules, do not be surprised. We need to hunt further.
3. Scum could potentially have a lot more power in terms of selecting which group should be lynched or who is to be lynched than in a 2/1/1 set-up. Be conscious of bussing or subtle protection.

In short, please do not operate on the assumption that groups are split 2/1/1. Whatever that means to you, please share your thoughts.

2/0/2 would mean it would split the group into the other two groups right away, no?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Also, it cant be random, or if all 4 mafia go in one group, the game just ends lol.

[JealousTL]

This post makes no sense. If someone uses a meta reference to scum-read a player, then the mafia are going to jump in to defend that player?

Why do you think that scum would respond like that? The player would just retaliate against the meta read as they know their own meta better than anyone else's, no?

It is natural to defend yourself whether you are scum or not; the veracity of the defense is subjective. Remember that judging one's own meta is a subjective exercise whereas the collaborative reads of others is likely to average out to the truth, statistically speaking. That means if someone is defending their meta as being X but you have experience with it being Y, and see others erroneously saying that it is also X, then they could be implicated. Would it make sense for those others to defend this player even if they were of opposing alignments? Would a person be more likely to bus their teammate or defend them? Just things to think about and to speak your mind on, in the best interest of townies who don't have the experience to determine these things.

[JealousTL]

2/0/2 would mean it would split the group into the other two groups right away, no?

Good call, didn't consider that. I guess you can forget my dumb analysis.

/provennoob

[Calix]

So the post that got eaten by the forum (pardon my noobness) was directed at an earlier post @Calix (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=27116) but is mostly @Everyone because it pertains to how we should approach this game as town.

Calix said that there is going to be a 2/1/1 split of scum in the groups. That is not true. As I was reading the setup I noticed the conspicuous absence of an explanation as to how groups are chosen. After PMing Quick about it, I found out that the group distribution is random; this means we have to assume that it was done independently of alignment. If you don't trust me, contact him about it either in the setup thread, PM or QT (I'm not certain but it seems he prefers QT?).

This means we can't know if the groups are 2/0/2 or 2/1/1 or 3/0/1 or even 4/0/0. I'm sure many of you can understand the implications of this, but here are a few of them

Mafia's win condition state that they have to attain majority in a given group. There CANNOT be 3-4 Mafia in a given group because the Mafia would win straight away.

Like I said, this is MASSIVELY helpful to determining what scum team theories are not possible. For example, Spruance/ Calix/ Duck is confirmed to not exist as a scum team because we are in Group 2 and 3 Mafia cannot be in the same group.

I hadn't considered the possibility of there being 0 Mafia in a group, however. If that's the case then it has to be 2:2:0 or 1:1:2. Those are the only two combinations that can exist.

[JealousTL]

Working off of this correction, it seems natural that scum would try to steer the group vote away from the group that has two scum in it, no?

[JealousTL]

Mafia's win condition state that they have to attain majority in a given group. There CANNOT be 3-4 Mafia in a given group because the Mafia would win straight away.

Like I said, this is MASSIVELY helpful to determining what scum team theories are not possible. For example, Spruance/ Calix/ Duck is confirmed to not exist as a scum team because we are in Group 2 and 3 Mafia cannot be in the same group.

I hadn't considered the possibility of there being 0 Mafia in a group, however. If that's the case then it has to be 2:2:0 or 1:1:2. Those are the only two combinations that can exist.

Thankfully as @PLEASEDUCKK pointed out, there cannot be 0 scum in a group, because then the group would dissolve.

At least now I have a more concrete grasp of the setup because I now see the light.

[Shapelog]

My post quality is going to be weak for the next several hours, I say this not as an excuse, but I will need to be more coherent to analyze posts by a player I have never seen before.

That's fine, Still going to question you though :P


I am relying on host meta because the setup said the game would be BALANCED. A mafia miller is unfair with the possible roles and setup, you can disagree with me, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.
No set up talk is fine. What i am talking about is saying QT gave you/X player a certain role. Thats WIFOM since you don't actually know how/if QT did it.



RLVG is a fine player, however in cat and mouse he ONLY posted troll comments and then went MIA for several days. Then I saw one or two more games where I believe he did not post at all? Other players who were in those games can comment on that, and what they think of RLVG's recent posting habits. If he steps his play up this game this is all out the window obviously.
Ah, ok. It just sounded like the guy was trolly/a bit inactive.

Def. if anyone can comment about the bold please do so. But I make sense of what your saying at least.


I just discussed my thoughts on voting my own group. To your point, I like to play with skilled players who are willing to improve. In a recent game (qt.3.14) I went against lynching a very likely mafia because I respected their play and wanted to continue playing with them over other players who could have been mafia that I do not feel were playing as well. In this particular case I feel like lynching someone who is not going to post benefits the game experience whether or not it helps or hurts me in the game.
I prob. try to check this if i remember.

I don't honestly think I ever meet someone like that lol (leaving mafia alive.) The "lynching bad townie over maybe scum" makes sense to me as i def. have done that before. That alone doesn't really help me much with your alignment i must admit (other then if you don't do it) but nice to know I suppose.

I should probably put in my two cents on Duck's meta.

A. He's prone to bragging about his FM play, references his own meta every other post, and flips on his reads a lot. This is NAI for him.

B. He also loves his insane gambits...which is also NAI. Textbook example of this is in Instant Mafia 2.0 (only 700-odd posts and I think it showcases Duck's usual play very well)

C. To call him an emotional player is the equivalent of calling the Prime Minster "fairly well-known in politics"

Thank me later.

What is AI for him?

Open request:

I've heard a few people stating their opinions for and against meta-reads. Since I have no experience with anyone here, will people be vigilant about meta? I am not a big fan of reading meta myself, but in this scenario where people have a lot of experience with one another, it could be a valuable tool. Sifting through the "he said, she said" is a tedious task but I have done it before to some success. So, in short, my request is that if you see something that rubs you the wrong way about someone in reference to their meta, please post it and be ready to defend it against the target's scummates. From what I see in the list of participants, the majority of you should be familiar with one another, so scum /should/ be in the minority if defending one another on meta reads.

The bold makes no sense. #1 doesn't make sense due to that it requires us to know if the target is A scum, and b his team mates will come to his aid. And the #2 doesn't make sense due to that only working for players who aren't from this site. Basically #2 paints outsiders as scummy kinda.

Unless #2 refers to vets which then doesn't make sense since any of the vets should talk up if wrong meta is happening.

[JealousTL]

Thankfully as @PLEASEDUCKK pointed out, there cannot be 0 scum in a group, because then the group would dissolve.

At least now I have a more concrete grasp of the setup because I now see the light.

I meant @PLEASELEAVEDUCKK

[Calix]

It is natural to defend yourself whether you are scum or not; the veracity of the defense is subjective. Remember that judging one's own meta is a subjective exercise whereas the collaborative reads of others is likely to average out to the truth, statistically speaking. That means if someone is defending their meta as being X but you have experience with it being Y, and see others erroneously saying that it is also X, then they could be implicated. Would it make sense for those others to defend this player even if they were of opposing alignments? Would a person be more likely to bus their teammate or defend them? Just things to think about and to speak your mind on, in the best interest of townies who don't have the experience to determine these things.

Do you always type like you're masturbating furiously on a thesaurus? Just noticed that the way you talk is stilted and pings me as unnatural.

Given the nature of meta (something which can be checked as it is an account of previous plays) I don't see why scum would lie about their meta when sticking to the truth comes far more easily to them.

The other questions (interesting posting style, noting that) just cover the obvious about analysing player motivations.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Working off of this correction, it seems natural that scum would try to steer the group vote away from the group that has two scum in it, no?

I was thinking about this awhile ago. I think the opposite IF you think the group favors your 2 scum team. If the mafia team is calix/duck/x/x, we vote group 2 and sweep, it really is simple as that. Look at world of music where I was town read as mafia for high activity, and overwatch where calix was hard town read, partially due to activity (she was town though). The other players would have to bring very strong reads to keep up with our availability and high post counts.

[JealousTL]

The bold makes no sense. #1 doesn't make sense due to that it requires us to know if the target is A scum, and b his team mates will come to his aid. And the #2 doesn't make sense due to that only working for players who aren't from this site. Basically #2 paints outsiders as scummy kinda.

Unless #2 refers to vets which then doesn't make sense since any of the vets should talk up if wrong meta is happening.

I kinda implied in #1 that you, as a person eligible to make meta reads as a vet, would believe the meta to be scummy. #2, your analysis is exactly what I mean, I'm just giving further encouragement for people to generate discussion on such matters so that us newbies to the forum can have something to draw from. Seeing how defense/attack on different people splits has won me a game in the past in which I had no idea of what the meta was for anyone, so I would like to do the same here if the opportunity presents itself.

[Calix]

What is AI for him?

Tone/ emotional reads. Those would be the main differences between his town/ scum play. He's prone to raging as town and when he's scum, he has to live up to that and isn't always successful at making it sound genuine.

All of his crazy antics and play are just smoke and mirrors for that, in my opinion. I know that most players who have played with Duck would disagree here.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Tone/ emotional reads. Those would be the main differences between his town/ scum play. He's prone to raging as town and when he's scum, he has to live up to that and isn't always successful at making it sound genuine.

All of his crazy antics and play are just smoke and mirrors for that, in my opinion. I know that most players who have played with Duck would disagree here.

Thoughts on my tone so far? Also, do you see similarities between kovath in this game and IC? His questioning, and then disappearing?

I will say I have talked a lot with kovath about that game, and he does genuinely go afk, so I do not want that to be held against him as much as it seems odd for him to make an opening question and disappear without making an opening comment regarding something of his own opinion.

[Never Unlucky]

Spruance isn't as difficult to read as you make him out to be.

I was not saying he's hard to read. I meant that his trolling meta has always been detrimental to town. He sheeps, doesn't contribute, is the last town you'd wish is a TPR (IC...), and he fucking aggravates me.


A)Why are you discouraging lynches/ votes on us this early and B)categorising players like that? C) Given that most players aren't aware of who the 'difficult' targets will be, there's no reason that anyone should be flagging up XYZ as "don't lynch"

A)Because group 3 is made of players you'll lynch based on reads, not activity or WIFOM. It's just the obvious better vote.

B) Because it's how I see those players. It's my bias.
Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

C) You're not a "don't lynch" player. You're a close-to un-lynchable player, there is a difference. I've never seen someone make a decent case on you in the 3 games I've played with you.

[JealousTL]

Do you always type like you're masturbating furiously on a thesaurus? Just noticed that the way you talk is stilted and pings me as unnatural.

Given the nature of meta (something which can be checked as it is an account of previous plays) I don't see why scum would lie about their meta when sticking to the truth comes far more easily to them.

The other questions (interesting posting style, noting that) just cover the obvious about analysing player motivations.
Bluntly, yes. That is something that has been noted in my other forum mafia games on TeamLiquid (JealousTL = JealousTeamLiquid). I can't help it; English is not my first language, and I learned it more from foreign pedagogues and textbooks than I have from actual conversation. When my mind reaches for a word, I pick the word that best simulates the intention of my words as opposed to what is more palatable to my background and the direct translation as opposed to what most people are comfortable with. This is expounded by the fact that I am an English editor/tutor and thus when my hands touch the keyboard I unconsciously enter srsbznsmode.

You make a good point that a scum lying about their meta could make them stick out like a sore thumb to other experienced forum vets, but in my experience on Team Liquid it seems that some people tend to give free passes to others based on style, for example. I don't like that aspect of an experienced in-circle of players, and therefore am just asking for people to stay vigilant.

[Quick]

Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

I can assure you there were no shinanies going on with this.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I was not saying he's hard to read. I meant that his trolling meta has always been detrimental to town. He sheeps, doesn't contribute, is the last town you'd wish is a TPR (IC...), and he fucking aggravates me.



A)Because group 3 is made of players you'll lynch based on reads, not activity or WIFOM. It's just the obvious better vote.

B) Because it's how I see those players. It's my bias.
Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

C) You're not a "don't lynch" player. You're a close-to un-lynchable player, there is a difference. I've never seen someone make a decent case on you in the 3 games I've played with you.

If group 2 was selected, are you able to vote based on your reads and not personal bias against that player?

I don't want personal bias to shape your reads.

[Shapelog]

Might as well share it, that or twiddle our thumbs and discuss nothing...

Eh I share it, good mood so Why the hell not.

It is a bit WIFOMy i will admit, but if you hated playing scum so much (as it sounds like from your posts) then upon finding out your mafia, your activity/Morale/Content should drop accord as well. Moreover, in this game in particular, i feel like you would have a hard time hiding your distaste for being mafia.

It honestly isn't more then Tinfoil now that I written it down.

It is natural to defend yourself whether you are scum or not; the veracity of the defense is subjective. Remember that judging one's own meta is a subjective exercise whereas the collaborative reads of others is likely to average out to the truth, statistically speaking. That means if someone is defending their meta as being X but you have experience with it being Y, and see others erroneously saying that it is also X, then they could be implicated. Would it make sense for those others to defend this player even if they were of opposing alignments? Would a person be more likely to bus their teammate or defend them? Just things to think about and to speak your mind on, in the best interest of townies who don't have the experience to determine these things.
*Room Room*
*Turns the bus wheel, Bus goes sliding*
I mean my scum meta is littlery this post:
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/5d/5d532ed1ab5e81c9f9d98eba6b30bbc9a762093f9d13148b3d ee4ff7d2d17b09.jpg

About mafia defending others (since i now understand what your talking about kinda.) I can say mafia does do it, but it depends on the player quite honestly. It also depends on the context it is presented sometimes to determine if it is mafia defending or not.

In this game however, Mafia kinda would be dumb to try and shut down the meta discussion, especially if they are new. Snice it possibly could give them more reasons to cast sus.

[Calix]

Thoughts on my tone so far? Also, do you see similarities between kovath in this game and IC? His questioning, and then disappearing?

I will say I have talked a lot with kovath about that game, and he does genuinely go afk, so I do not want that to be held against him as much as it seems odd for him to make an opening question and disappear without making an opening comment regarding something of his own opinion.

You haven't gotten angry yet, so no thoughts.

I know he's out-of-town for the next few days so I expect that he will be largely inactive.

I might stop posting soon because I don't want to flood the thread and make it harder for other players to catch up. Nothing urgent is being discussed right now.


I was not saying he's hard to read. I meant that his trolling meta has always been detrimental to town. He sheeps, doesn't contribute, is the last town you'd wish is a TPR (IC...), and he fucking aggravates me.

I am aware of Spruance's meta, so the explanation was not needed. Are you going anywhere with this?


A)Because group 3 is made of players you'll lynch based on reads, not activity or WIFOM. It's just the obvious better vote.

B) Because it's how I see those players. It's my bias.
Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

C) You're not a "don't lynch" player. You're a close-to un-lynchable player, there is a difference. I've never seen someone make a decent case on you in the 3 games I've played with you.

A. But that was based on MY own experiences. You haven't played with Yuki so my point is far less applicable to you.

B. Okay?

C. Because said players are scrubs and I never roll scum these days. I'm starting to feel like all the hosts have banded together to help the shitty/ apathetic townies by forcing me to carry them every game.

[JealousTL]

About mafia defending others (since i now understand what your talking about kinda.) I can say mafia does do it, but it depends on the player quite honestly. It also depends on the context it is presented sometimes to determine if it is mafia defending or not.

In this game however, Mafia kinda would be dumb to try and shut down the meta discussion, especially if they are new. Snice it possibly could give them more reasons to cast sus.
I wasn't trying say mafia would try to shut down meta discussion, just that people should be critical of any seeming alliance during such discussions, which I encourage (despite my admitted dislike of meta-reads) simply because I don't know any of these people and thus they know more than I do.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Eh I share it, good mood so Why the hell not.

It is a bit WIFOMy i will admit, but if you hated playing scum so much (as it sounds like from your posts) then upon finding out your mafia, your activity/Morale/Content should drop accord as well. Moreover, in this game in particular, i feel like you would have a hard time hiding your distaste for being mafia.

It honestly isn't more then Tinfoil now that I written it down.

*Room Room*
*Turns the bus wheel, Bus goes sliding*
I mean my scum meta is littlery this post:
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/5d/5d532ed1ab5e81c9f9d98eba6b30bbc9a762093f9d13148b3d ee4ff7d2d17b09.jpg

About mafia defending others (since i now understand what your talking about kinda.) I can say mafia does do it, but it depends on the player quite honestly. It also depends on the context it is presented sometimes to determine if it is mafia defending or not.

In this game however, Mafia kinda would be dumb to try and shut down the meta discussion, especially if they are new. Snice it possibly could give them more reasons to cast sus.

(you can ask others that everything I am about to say in this post is a 100% honest regardless of my alignment, would never be wifom and is 100% accurate)

As town and mafia, I try 100% until the end. NO if ands or buts. In world of music, it was final 5, I was red checked, the town had auto and I fought for fucking hours trying everything in the book to win the game. I would be jovial as both alignments. I will say though IF I EVER ROLL NEUTRAL KILLING I WILL JUMP OFF THE FIRST BRIDGE I SEE IN REAL LIFE.


Also why the fuck am I the only one claiming something fucking abnormal. This is going to turn into some boy who cried wolf bullshit at this rate.

[JealousTL]

@PLEASELEAVEDUCKK Could you summarize what you mean by "claiming something fucking abnormal?"

[Shapelog]

Last post for tonight, getting tired from meds.

I kinda implied in #1 that you, as a person eligible to make meta reads as a vet, would believe the meta to be scummy. #2, your analysis is exactly what I mean, I'm just giving further encouragement for people to generate discussion on such matters so that us newbies to the forum can have something to draw from. Seeing how defense/attack on different people splits has won me a game in the past in which I had no idea of what the meta was for anyone, so I would like to do the same here if the opportunity presents itself.
Lol we were already doing the bold before you got here Jealous... well me and the C person was.

Also why would a vet think the meta would be scummy? And if so, who do you make of C guy/Girl's want to get all the meta out there?

Tone/ emotional reads. Those would be the main differences between his town/ scum play. He's prone to raging as town and when he's scum, he has to live up to that and isn't always successful at making it sound genuine.

http://i.imgur.com/jSs8d4n.gif

I horrible at reading Tone in my mind. Emotional reads I am better at since it kinda is easier to see since it would effect their typing.

Don't feel like quoteing so:

K guy is here (or at least is looking at this page/fourm depending on how it picks it up) so idk why he is not posting. His post looked like he was trying to get something done, yet when it closed, he lefted.

Can back Jealous typing being genuine. Should of seen it in TL.
Eh screw it I quote again.

ut in my experience on Team Liquid it seems that some people tend to give free passes to others based on style, for example. I don't like that aspect of an experienced in-circle of players, and therefore am just asking for people to stay vigilant.
TL is honestly sinful for that crap d1.

[Calix]

Bluntly, yes. That is something that has been noted in my other forum mafia games on TeamLiquid (JealousTL = JealousTeamLiquid). I can't help it; English is not my first language, and I learned it more from foreign pedagogues and textbooks than I have from actual conversation. When my mind reaches for a word, I pick the word that best simulates the intention of my words as opposed to what is more palatable to my background and the direct translation as opposed to what most people are comfortable with. This is expounded by the fact that I am an English editor/tutor and thus when my hands touch the keyboard I unconsciously enter srsbznsmode.

You make a good point that a scum lying about their meta could make them stick out like a sore thumb to other experienced forum vets, but in my experience on Team Liquid it seems that some people tend to give free passes to others based on style, for example. I don't like that aspect of an experienced in-circle of players, and therefore am just asking for people to stay vigilant.

Case in point for why self-meta on Day 1 is a good idea with this player list.

By style, do you mean typographical details? Duck wasn't lying when he said that high activity + contribution is read as town more often than not. It also helps if you know how to spell and punctuate your sentences correctly.

So yes, the gist of what you are saying is a valid one and the point below characterises you as a cautious, perhaps paranoid, player. It'll be interesting to see if that is maintained.


I wasn't trying say mafia would try to shut down meta discussion, just that people should be critical of any seeming alliance during such discussions, which I encourage (despite my admitted dislike of meta-reads) simply because I don't know any of these people and thus they know more than I do.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@PLEASELEAVEDUCKK Could you summarize what you mean by "claiming something fucking abnormal?"

I am the only player who has mentioned anything that is not standard mafia 101.

I am known for making bizarre plays, making my claim questionable even if I am town read. If a player like kovath rng'ed this mechanic than everyone would, and probably should instantly believe him.

Quick was excited for this save, I CANT be the only one who knows something that the rest of town does not. If nobody claims claims it means either they have positive changes, unknown changes, I am a fucked like goats in cabbage town, or one of the sides was too strong so this was done to make it somewhat more balanced (isolated mafia, vs few TPR's) or (Town is strong and has an invest, and I am actually a town)

Am I taking fucking crazy pills?

[JealousTL]

Last post for tonight, getting tired from meds.

Lol we were already doing the bold before you got here Jealous... well me and the C person was.

Also why would a vet think the meta would be scummy? And if so, who do you make of C guy/Girl's want to get all the meta out there?
Didn't say that you all weren't doing so :)

I obviously cannot speak definitively but I always favor those who try to pursue information and generate discussion by questioning others and their posting habits. My self-admitted naivete' is saying I shouldn't put too much weight on it but it makes me townlean in my heart.


Can back Jealous typing being genuine. Should of seen it in TL.
Eh screw it I quote again.

TL is honestly sinful for that crap d1.

Yea ): Makes me sad.


Case in point for why self-meta on Day 1 is a good idea with this player list.

By style, do you mean typographical details? Duck wasn't lying when he said that high activity + contribution is read as town more often than not. It also helps if you know how to spell and punctuate your sentences correctly.

So yes, the gist of what you are saying is a valid one and the point below characterises you as a cautious, perhaps paranoid, player. It'll be interesting to see if that is maintained.

Never said that it wasn't a good idea - just that it might not be objectively accurate, and that people can pick that apart given the right exposure to said person's posting style.

By style I meant more of demeanor, or direction. Are they trying to solve the game? Are they trying too hard, or not hard enough? Basically, does something not seem consistent with their townie play? Typing mannerisms could play a part in this, too.

I would rather say that I am analytical and questioning, but I can see the cautious/paranoid vibe there too. I wouldn't say I am averse to such a characterization. I'd rather be paranoid than give free passes.

[JealousTL]

I am the only player who has mentioned anything that is not standard mafia 101.

I am known for making bizarre plays, making my claim questionable even if I am town read. If a player like kovath rng'ed this mechanic than everyone would, and probably should instantly believe him.

Quick was excited for this save, I CANT be the only one who knows something that the rest of town does not. If nobody claims claims it means either they have positive changes, unknown changes, I am a fucked like goats in cabbage town, or one of the sides was too strong so this was done to make it somewhat more balanced (isolated mafia, vs few TPR's) or (Town is strong and has an invest, and I am actually a town)

Am I taking fucking crazy pills?

I see, thank you for being candid. I would say that it certainly does not make sense for you to paint a target on your back by stating something that seems unbelievable. It is covered by the penumbra of the setup rules from what I can tell though, so it is hypothetically viable.

WIFOM necessitates that I consider the option that you have done this in an effort to detract from constructive discussion, and that you throw ambiguity into the mix. However, I still feel that it is a greater possibility that you are truly concerned about your position and your win condition. I will have to re-read the setup rules to be more certain. As of now, I give your plight a slight townlean.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I see, thank you for being candid. I would say that it certainly does not make sense for you to paint a target on your back by stating something that seems unbelievable. It is covered by the penumbra of the setup rules from what I can tell though, so it is hypothetically viable.

WIFOM necessitates that I consider the option that you have done this in an effort to detract from constructive discussion, and that you throw ambiguity into the mix. However, I still feel that it is a greater possibility that you are truly concerned about your position and your win condition. I will have to re-read the setup rules to be more certain. As of now, I give your plight a slight townlean.

You cant have a townlean on me, I don't have an alignment....

That being said, If you consider this as a ploy to derail discussion, look at when and how I did it. I openly start by pointing guns aimed nowhere and directing them at me. This is not an issue, but shows I was not trying to deflect the pressure away from something it was already on. Then we look at the discussion aspect. I got home from the restaurant on page 2, rvs stage, aka shitpost and troll central. To think I would make such a major risky gambit to derail discussion during a time where there is no discussion is a major leap in my opinion.

The only reason to even entertain that thought is because it is within my range of play to do it as town, (maybe mafia?).

If we look at what doing this accomplishes, WHEN I did it, it ONLY makes sense as TOWN. However, I have stated earlier, that if this is fake, I am ONLY doing it as mafia. Therefore, it should show that I can only be telling the truth. If we want to live in conspiracy theory worlds, I want it discusses SOONER rather than later because NOW is the time when shitposting happens, so I rather not waste end of day discussions on whether or not I am a fucking lunatic.

I am having issues determining my alignment. There has been a fair amount of pressure and backing off of me that makes me unsure if I am mafia, and they are backing off of me or if I am town and mafia are distancing/not really yet pouncing on me. If I am town, mafia WILL pressure me, likely for things that do not warrant the level of pressure given.

[Gingerape]

Aww...shapelog already took the 'I didnt read the setup very well and I miscounted the number of mafia members play' I was totally going to use that so people would think never think I'm mafia if I didn't even know how many teammates I had.

Oh, I'll use this text color so people passively think I'm town since town is green ^^

..uwah! I was just thinking out loud! >~<

Mhm. I don't know which group to vote for..hmm...I'm sure that there's a 2/1/1 split! That seems the most fairest way to do it ^^

So I guess any group at this point would be fine to choose....

Calix said they played with 4/5 people in group 3 and seems super confident about their vote. I can agree with that for now!


Group 3

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Aww...shapelog already took the 'I didnt read the setup very well and I miscounted the number of mafia members play' I was totally going to use that so people would think never think I'm mafia if I didn't even know how many teammates I had.

Oh, I'll use this text color so people passively think I'm town since town is green ^^

..uwah! I was just thinking out loud! >~<

Mhm. I don't know which group to vote for..hmm...I'm sure that there's a 2/1/1 split! That seems the most fairest way to do it ^^

So I guess any group at this point would be fine to choose....

Calix said they played with 4/5 people in group 3 and seems super confident about their vote. I can agree with that for now!


Group 3

If you do not know Calix's alignment, why do you want to follow what she wants? What If she is mafia and you are giving mafia the group they want?

What do you think of my situation?

[Gingerape]

Duck...you are totally on drugs, and not the good kind!
Maybe you're right. I don't know her alignment...but if I invite now then I'll look like a little waffle!
You're just trying to trick me--you're not even an alignment, you're believable though. The host did say there were special hidden snowflake mechanics and I can totally buy into you being a traitor.
I...I mean a temporary amnesiac >~< sorry...I don't know why I said that ^^;

I'm really cute trustworthy. So if my group gets voted then I'll totally defend myself with uh.. honor! Please don't hurt me. I have so much to live for.

go home duck. You're drunk.

[Titus]

I want to lynch in two imo. I don't like the fact there's so much diversion from 2, when two arguably has easier to sort players (less skilled).

[Titus]

I buy Duck as the hidden mechanic referenced in the setup. I think he's honest there.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Duck...you are totally on drugs, and not the good kind!
Maybe you're right. I don't know her alignment...but if I invite now then I'll look like a little waffle!
You're just trying to trick me--you're not even an alignment, you're believable though. The host did say there were special hidden snowflake mechanics and I can totally buy into you being a traitor.
I...I mean a temporary amnesiac >~< sorry...I don't know why I said that ^^;

I'm really cute trustworthy. So if my group gets voted then I'll totally defend myself with uh.. honor! Please don't hurt me. I have so much to live for.

go home duck. You're drunk.


If it was mafia wars II still I could be the drug dealer!!

Oh god If I remember my role as mafia who is alone im going to break something, probably my wall. I think it is impossible for me to be a role like traitor or mafioso as that would mean mafia loses their night kill role for a night? and makes the whole amnesiac part of my role a waste. I could see myself as any mafia utility or town roles like universal backup/deputy.

If your group is selected, why would you be focused on defending yourself rather than finding who the mafia in the group is? In your mind you should know you are town, and have nothing to defend yourself from. Your scum hunting should be your defense.

[Gingerape]

Duckhunt. Oh! Well! If my group is selected to star in the second round show, then shouldn't I go ahead and tell you guys why not to vote me for miss unpopular?
I don't get a vote. So I'm not telling you guys who in the group to vote for. I'm just going to tell you guys not to vote me because I'm super adorable. important? town! And you definitely don't wanna lynch town >~< unless you're an evil evil mafia.
Yea...so only the really bad guys will vote for me. So for sure get them if they do. ^^

[Titus]

Duckhunt. Oh! Well! If my group is selected to star in the second round show, then shouldn't I go ahead and tell you guys why not to vote me for miss unpopular?
I don't get a vote. So I'm not telling you guys who in the group to vote for. I'm just going to tell you guys not to vote me because I'm super adorable. important? town! And you definitely don't wanna lynch town >~< unless you're an evil evil mafia.
Yea...so only the really bad guys will vote for me. So for sure get them if they do. ^^


Given the bright traitor crumb you left, not so sure I buy that.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Duckhunt. Oh! Well! If my group is selected to star in the second round show, then shouldn't I go ahead and tell you guys why not to vote me for miss unpopular?
I don't get a vote. So I'm not telling you guys who in the group to vote for. I'm just going to tell you guys not to vote me because I'm super adorable. important? town! And you definitely don't wanna lynch town >~< unless you're an evil evil mafia.
Yea...so only the really bad guys will vote for me. So for sure get them if they do. ^^


I mean each player has their own unique style. You are more than welcome and probably encouraged by others to defend yourself, but think about it. If you are in a store that was robbed and a cop enters, you don't start telling the cop why you are not the robber, but you might give a description of what you saw or what happened.

Oh jesus i am almost sober and that analogy was fucking atrocious.

#@ginger what is your read on titus. Do you think you are both town?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Given the bright traitor crumb you left, not so sure I buy that.

Do you think mafia would breadcrumb so openly like that?

If you believe this could be a real breadcrumb, and you believe I am part of the hidden mechanic, am I likely to be town then?

traitor+amnesiac would mean mafia only has a working team of 2 right now, and I do not see how that would be the case.

[Calix]

Ginger's posting style is going to drive me up the wall. Titus might be onto something with Ginger trying to signal to the mafia although it is extremely obvious and guaranteed to draw a shitload of attention to them.


I mean each player has their own unique style. You are more than welcome and probably encouraged by others to defend yourself, but think about it. If you are in a store that was robbed and a cop enters, you don't start telling the cop why you are not the robber, but you might give a description of what you saw or what happened.

Oh jesus i am almost sober and that analogy was fucking atrocious.

#@ginger what is your read on titus. Do you think you are both town?

You are being weirdly charitable about Ginger's posting, which I find at odds with how you treated Yuki. Care to explain what makes them different in your eyes? Because both are in the same boat posting-wise (in general, not this game)

Why do you ask about Ginger/ Titus being T/ T over any other scenario?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Ginger's posting style is going to drive me up the wall. Titus might be onto something with Ginger trying to signal to the mafia although it is extremely obvious and guaranteed to draw a shitload of attention to them.



You are being weirdly charitable about Ginger's posting, which I find at odds with how you treated Yuki. Care to explain what makes them different in your eyes? Because both are in the same boat posting-wise (in general, not this game)

Why do you ask about Ginger/ Titus being T/ T over any other scenario?

1) trying to be nicer( won't last long, but trying)
2) yuki seemed like a russian trying to talk english in third person, and openly refused to answer my questions


As for the question on her? read, they were the only interaction going on. Ginger will obviously only say they are town, and I was curious to their reaction to Titus who I have a very specific read right now which I won't comment on because it would defeat the purpose of me asking the question to ginger.

tldr: dead chat, trying to get discussion/reads/pre-flip associations (OMG PRE FLIP ASSOCIATIONS ARE BAD, I know I am bad, I liked them, fuck all of you).

[Gingerape]

Yay analogies! A cop comes into a gas store and locks the door. He says...'Hey! The five people in here line up right meow! We have evidence that one of you stole a Mountain Dew! Now...I would totally point out the guy who stole the Mountain Dew. But i don't know who it is. But I can empty my pockets and tell the occifer that I totally didn't steal it and I should go free. ^^

Titus basically hurt me with that last post. That's fine. I don't ....I don't like how he wants to vote group two based off past player experience, but whatever.
I don't think the host did that on purpose. Wait! Am I in the super experienced group!? Thanks host. You think I'm super experienced ^^ I won't let you down!

What's a T/T
Oh and I meant you'd be a amnesiac that turned into a traitor. Wouldn't mafia have three people then?like one for each group? Iunno. I could be confluffed

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Yay analogies! A cop comes into a gas store and locks the door. He says...'Hey! The five people in here line up right meow! We have evidence that one of you stole a Mountain Dew! Now...I would totally point out the guy who stole the Mountain Dew. But i don't know who it is. But I can empty my pockets and tell the occifer that I totally didn't steal it and I should go free. ^^

Titus basically hurt me with that last post. That's fine. I don't ....I don't like how he wants to vote group two based off past player experience, but whatever.
I don't think the host did that on purpose. Wait! Am I in the super experienced group!? Thanks host. You think I'm super experienced ^^ I won't let you down!

What's a T/T
Oh and I meant you'd be a amnesiac that turned into a traitor. Wouldn't mafia have three people then?like one for each group? Iunno. I could be confluffed

Fair point, I concede.

Group 3 is the best group based on name, IMO, but I can see hesitation with how little resistance there is to go to group 3.

Town versus Town and I don't think me being amnesiac traitor is a world because that would mean I forgot my role just to remember my alignment, but not know who my teammates are. If this is the case, it might make sense because I would show up town to investigative which would maybe balance the isolation?

That being said, I think it is most likely that I am citizen, universal backup, or deputy with a heavy emphasis on the latter two.

[JealousTL]

Ginger's posting style is going to drive me up the wall. Titus might be onto something with Ginger trying to signal to the mafia although it is extremely obvious and guaranteed to draw a shitload of attention to them.

Agreed on all points. This reminds me of certain posters where I come from. Their mannerisms leave an unpleasant taste in my mouth, especially D1, whether they are town or not. A similar poster once got a "day pass" for D1 because they were "trolling" like this and it was within their scope, and they ended up helping town immensely in D3. That same poster did the same thing, got lynched D1, flipped scum. In short, I find that people who post like this are trying to create an image that cannot be read either way. That is not beneficial to town, and I don't like it.

[Gingerape]

Oh jealous...if you don't like me then why don't you go ahead and vote for my group? Hmm?
Well you can say you're hesitant because half of my group hasn't really showed up yet so you're waiting to get reads on them before rushing into a vote situation. That's fine.

[Calix]

1) trying to be nicer( won't last long, but trying)
2) yuki seemed like a russian trying to talk english in third person, and openly refused to answer my questions


As for the question on her? read, they were the only interaction going on. Ginger will obviously only say they are town, and I was curious to their reaction to Titus who I have a very specific read right now which I won't comment on because it would defeat the purpose of me asking the question to ginger.

tldr: dead chat, trying to get discussion/reads/pre-flip associations (OMG PRE FLIP ASSOCIATIONS ARE BAD, I know I am bad, I liked them, fuck all of you).

1. Please keep trying, if for no other reason than so I can smirk at your attempts.

My favourite, the "I has secret reads but won't reveal them yet" - I'll just note this for later.


Fair point, I concede.

Group 3 is the best group based on name, IMO, but I can see hesitation with how little resistance there is to go to group 3.

Why would the amount of resistance matter? We've established that all of the groups have 1-2 scum in them and even though I had my theory that the scum would favour the 2-mafia group because of my idea, I'm starting to think that I was barking up the wrong tree. Even in the hypothetical scenario that the 2-mafia group got chosen and MLed a town, they'd still all-but-guarantee that one of their own would be lynched tomorrow.

I haven't properly run through the numbers and I'm running on fumes right now so this might be totally wrong.



Oh jealous...if you don't like me then why don't you go ahead and vote for my group? Hmm?
Well you can say you're hesitant because half of my group hasn't really showed up yet so you're waiting to get reads on them before rushing into a vote situation. That's fine.


Scum-reading is going to be super-annoying until most of the players show up. For all I know, none of the scum have even posted yet and we just end up eating each other alive.

zzz

[Gingerape]

i think scum would definitely not pick the 2 person group since they don't get to vote in the group. It's only the people from the other groups that get to vote isn't it?
Like then you have less mafia voting...and more chance of mafia getting hit.
So they would for sure not want their group to get chosen.

Wrong color :3

[JealousTL]

Oh jealous...if you don't like me then why don't you go ahead and vote for my group? Hmm?
Well you can say you're hesitant because half of my group hasn't really showed up yet so you're waiting to get reads on them before rushing into a vote situation. That's fine.

I'm just trying to be impartial. Jumping on you from a few posts when we're less than half-way through Day 1 would be stupid because it could taint your future participation. I would rather you operate as is most comfortable to you; I have no evidence to suggest that you won't be useful given the right time/situation.

[JealousTL]

i think scum would definitely not pick the 2 person group since they don't get to vote in the group. It's only the people from the other groups that get to vote isn't it?
Like then you have less mafia voting...and more chance of mafia getting hit.
So they would for sure not want their group to get chosen.

Wrong color :3

My thinking exactly.

With the odds stacked so far against their favor, I find it hard to believe they would roll the dice on confirmed that a group has 2 scum. Remember, if we lynch a scum from the 2 scum group, we would all know that there is 1 more scum in that group, thus making it a 1-in-4 situation as opposed to the other groups' 1-in-5. The math just seems too straightforward to ignore.

[Gingerape]

Thanks for buddying wif me jealous ^^ yes. It's weird how Kalix is so convinced the opposite is true.
Maybe she's.....-gasp- ....maybe she's....a big dummie ^^ hehe
I'm kidding Cayla.
Wha. I'm done here for now. I can't wait to play with this Yuka person soon.

[Calix]

Thanks for buddying wif me jealous ^^ yes. It's weird how Kalix is so convinced the opposite is true.
Maybe she's.....-gasp- ....maybe she's....a big dummie ^^ hehe
I'm kidding Cayla.
Wha. I'm done here for now. I can't wait to play with this Yuka person soon.

Nah, I've changed my mind. I initially thought that because I had this theory that the Mafia would try to go for a N1 win, but then I realised that I was wrong and the logic about the Mafia having less vote power just reinforces that.

I should really get some sleep but I can't.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

1. Please keep trying, if for no other reason than so I can smirk at your attempts.

My favourite, the "I has secret reads but won't reveal them yet" - I'll just note this for later.



This strikes me as odd. I asked someone a question to get information, and you expect me to give them the answer I am looking for?

Not to mention this is coming from someone who is notorious for never explaining town reads because they do not believe that is the objective of the game.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Wait for the game the whole day, fall asleep when this game started
Host troll me v(o.o(<

[Titus]

Do you think mafia would breadcrumb so openly like that?

If you believe this could be a real breadcrumb, and you believe I am part of the hidden mechanic, am I likely to be town then?

traitor+amnesiac would mean mafia only has a working team of 2 right now, and I do not see how that would be the case.

I am not going to place you as town or scum until you know which you are. I don't know enough to make any sort of informed judgment as to role balance.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Since Calix is op too strong
Group 2

[Titus]

1. Please keep trying, if for no other reason than so I can smirk at your attempts.

My favourite, the "I has secret reads but won't reveal them yet" - I'll just note this for later.



Why would the amount of resistance matter? We've established that all of the groups have 1-2 scum in them and even though I had my theory that the scum would favour the 2-mafia group because of my idea, I'm starting to think that I was barking up the wrong tree. Even in the hypothetical scenario that the 2-mafia group got chosen and MLed a town, they'd still all-but-guarantee that one of their own would be lynched tomorrow.

I haven't properly run through the numbers and I'm running on fumes right now so this might be totally wrong.



Scum-reading is going to be super-annoying until most of the players show up. For all I know, none of the scum have even posted yet and we just end up eating each other alive.

zzz

Assuming the likely assumption of even split scum, scum would still have a preference based on removing skilled townies or easier mislynches or both.

[Titus]

My thinking exactly.

With the odds stacked so far against their favor, I find it hard to believe they would roll the dice on confirmed that a group has 2 scum. Remember, if we lynch a scum from the 2 scum group, we would all know that there is 1 more scum in that group, thus making it a 1-in-4 situation as opposed to the other groups' 1-in-5. The math just seems too straightforward to ignore.

That group is also the easiest to blitz win in.

[JealousTL]

That group is also the easiest to blitz win in.
Very true. How should we preemptively plan for this possibility?

My thoughts are as follows: If we lynch from Group 3 (for example) and do not hit scum, it becomes 2-2. That's game lose for us, right? We have to be very careful with where and why we go to a certain group, it seems.

[JealousTL]

Now that I think about it, if Group 3 is in fact the 2 scum group and they blitzed the vote, it would be a strong strategy. The empirical chances of lynching town are 3/5, therefore the chance of scum winning D1/N1 is hypothetically around 60%. I will wait for counter-arguments and etc. before casting my vote, but it seems to me this G3 bandwagon came on too easily and therefore should be reversed.

[Calix]

This strikes me as odd. I asked someone a question to get information, and you expect me to give them the answer I am looking for?

Not to mention this is coming from someone who is notorious for never explaining town reads because they do not believe that is the objective of the game.

I was making a comment on what you were doing, not insinuating anything about your intentions or passing judgment. I'm aware that it's a common thing that players do.

I don't explain my town-reads much because focusing on town-reads in a game where scum have to be eliminated = stupid. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule but comparing it to "I won't share my reasoning (yet) because I want to see their reaction" is inaccurate as I don't hide my reasoning to see how people react.


Since Calix is op too strong
Group 2

This is 100% a meta-based read so it'll sound retarded but this makes me think Yuki could be scum. And the only reason I think that is because the "Calix OP" line is something he's said on two separate occasions where I was town and did well with lynching/ killing scum. (e.g., the Return to Normalcy game where I lynched Executioner D1 and killed a Mafia N1 as a Bodyguard and he made a similar comment on D2)

So with that in mind, the fact that his first instinct is to try and take me out makes me think he's scared that I'll do the same here.

He's also voting for the group that I am in after the group that he is in is in the lead so possible OMGUS element there. This is a flimsy-ass point, I know, but it's not like he commented on anything else so whatever.


Very true. How should we preemptively plan for this possibility?

My thoughts are as follows: If we lynch from Group 3 (for example) and do not hit scum, it becomes 2-2. That's game lose for us, right? We have to be very careful with where and why we go to a certain group, it seems.

I don't know if 2v2 parity makes us lose because surely the Mafia could just avoid the 2-scum group on D1, night-kill a townie from the 2-scum group and win by Night 1, right?

I asked and apparently it's in the setup thread but I can't find where this is explained. If someone could help out, it would be good.

[Calix]

Now that I think about it, if Group 3 is in fact the 2 scum group and they blitzed the vote, it would be a strong strategy. The empirical chances of lynching town are 3/5, therefore the chance of scum winning D1/N1 is hypothetically around 60%. I will wait for counter-arguments and etc. before casting my vote, but it seems to me this G3 bandwagon came on too easily and therefore should be reversed.

The only real counter-argument is the fact that like, 9/15 players have turned up iirc and the odds of all 4 scum having turned up yet are slim.

It has 4 votes at the moment and we're 12 hours in. Looking at the list, 4/5 of Group 3's players have turned up compared to like, 2/5 for Group 1, so for now I think it's the best choice. If everyone comes flooding in later than I'll reconsider but if activity remains low then I definitely think we should stick with that.

Given that I started the Group 3 vote, I know that it's not scum-motivated. What do you make of the individual voters on the train?

[Yukitaka Oni]

I was making a comment on what you were doing, not insinuating anything about your intentions or passing judgment. I'm aware that it's a common thing that players do.

I don't explain my town-reads much because focusing on town-reads in a game where scum have to be eliminated = stupid. Obviously there are exceptions to this rule but comparing it to "I won't share my reasoning (yet) because I want to see their reaction" is inaccurate as I don't hide my reasoning to see how people react.



This is 100% a meta-based read so it'll sound retarded but this makes me think Yuki could be scum. And the only reason I think that is because the "Calix OP" line is something he's said on two separate occasions where I was town and did well with lynching/ killing scum. (e.g., the Return to Normalcy game where I lynched Executioner D1 and killed a Mafia N1 as a Bodyguard and he made a similar comment on D2)

So with that in mind, the fact that his first instinct is to try and take me out makes me think he's scared that I'll do the same here.

He's also voting for the group that I am in after the group that he is in is in the lead so possible OMGUS element there. This is a flimsy-ass point, I know, but it's not like he commented on anything else so whatever.



I don't know if 2v2 parity makes us lose because surely the Mafia could just avoid the 2-scum group on D1, night-kill a townie from the 2-scum group and win by Night 1, right?

I asked and apparently it's in the setup thread but I can't find where this is explained. If someone could help out, it would be good.
Come on Calix, you maybe not a town this time b)o.o)^!

[Calix]

Also correct me if I made an error somewhere, but say if we chose a 1-scum group and lynched that scum.

That would activate the random assignment of the remaining group players to the other group, right?


When all members of the mafia are lynched from a group, the remaining members of that will join the remaining group(s) as evenly as possible but will be random what players will join what group where applicable.

Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't all of those remaining members be confirmed as town? Because the assignment of players to other groups can only happen when all of the scum in a given group are dead.

Best-case scenario isn't going for the 2-scum group, it's going for a 1-scum group, lynching correctly and having the remaining townies enter the other two groups which thus makes it harder for scum to gain majority in a given group and means that 4 players are removed from POE.

I mean, this assumes that we become god-tier scum-hunters within 48-odd hours even though we don't really know each other, but it's definitely possible.

[Calix]

Come on Calix, you maybe not a town this time b)o.o)^!

Quality post. I liked the part where you crawled out and reactively scum-read me for making a meta point.

This was no doubt followed up by you flawlessly countering my argument before offering your incisive opinions on the events in the thread.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Technically I started the group 3 train, but my vote fucked up.

@yuki what are your reads so far.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Quality post. I liked the part where you crawled out and reactively scum-read me for making a meta point.

This was no doubt followed up by you flawlessly countering my argument before offering your incisive opinions on the events in the thread.
Nah, take it easy Calix, I didn't say you are scum. It's just we maybe not on the same side this time, well....not on the same group at least <(o.o(v

[Yukitaka Oni]

Technically I started the group 3 train, but my vote fucked up.

@yuki what are your reads so far.
Catching up reading and....still confuse a bit about this (group vote mechanics) ~(o.o)~

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Also correct me if I made an error somewhere, but say if we chose a 1-scum group and lynched that scum.

That would activate the random assignment of the remaining group players to the other group, right?



Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't all of those remaining members be confirmed as town? Because the assignment of players to other groups can only happen when all of the scum in a given group are dead.

Best-case scenario isn't going for the 2-scum group, it's going for a 1-scum group, lynching correctly and having the remaining townies enter the other two groups which thus makes it harder for scum to gain majority in a given group and means that 4 players are removed from POE.

I mean, this assumes that we become god-tier scum-hunters within 48-odd hours even though we don't really know each other, but it's definitely possible.

Even if we do play well on day 1, do you think we will be able to out steer the 3-4 mafia?

If the groups were labeled "1 mafia" "1 mafia" "2 mafia", do you think we get more information from interactions in a 1 mafia group or a 2 mafia?

[Yukitaka Oni]

Even if we do play well on day 1, do you think we will be able to out steer the 3-4 mafia?

If the groups were labeled "1 mafia" "1 mafia" "2 mafia", do you think we get more information from interactions in a 1 mafia group or a 2 mafia?
Eh....setup 4 Mafia and...i think the host is going to put 2-1-1 rather than 3-1-0 or 4-0-0 in the group

[Calix]

Come on Calix, you maybe not a town this time b)o.o)^!


Nah, take it easy Calix, I didn't say you are scum. It's just we maybe not on the same side this time, well....not on the same group at least <(o.o(v

Uh no, it clearly states that I'm "maybe not a town this time" - this implies that I am MAFIA because there are only two factions in the game. The fact that you've cited me as a reason to vote for my group supports my point.

Nowhere do you refer to groups. Even if you were, why would you respond to my comment to state the obvious?


Even if we do play well on day 1, do you think we will be able to out steer the 3-4 mafia?

If the groups were labeled "1 mafia" "1 mafia" "2 mafia", do you think we get more information from interactions in a 1 mafia group or a 2 mafia?

Well if we lynched correctly in the 1-scum group, that would confirm 4/11 of the town, no? Mafia would obviously not want this because it narrows them down quickly and forces them to night-kill among said confirmed townies so they would have to be proactive in the chat to avoid this happening because associative tells aren't the main thing that will find scum this game.

Said night-kills would take them until Night 4. By that point, it is very likely that the other 1-scum group would have been eliminated (this would confirm 8/11 of the town)

However, lynching correctly in the 2-scum group not only gives us a confirmed scum flip but gives us a 25% chance of lynching correctly AGAIN the following day by RNG. A chance that goes up considerably when you factor in reads, associations, etc.

Due to the whole "4 confirmed town" thing, I think a 1-scum lynch is more informative. Too much to lose for scum to sit back and do nothing imo.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Uh no, it clearly states that I'm "maybe not a town this time" - this implies that I am MAFIA because there are only two factions in the game. The fact that you've cited me as a reason to vote for my group supports my point.

Nowhere do you refer to groups. Even if you were, why would you respond to my comment to state the obvious?



Well if we lynched correctly in the 1-scum group, that would confirm 4/11 of the town, no? Mafia would obviously not want this because it narrows them down quickly and forces them to night-kill among said confirmed townies so they would have to be proactive in the chat to avoid this happening because associative tells aren't the main thing that will find scum this game.

Said night-kills would take them until Night 4. By that point, it is very likely that the other 1-scum group would have been eliminated (this would confirm 8/11 of the town)

However, lynching correctly in the 2-scum group not only gives us a confirmed scum flip but gives us a 25% chance of lynching correctly AGAIN the following day by RNG. A chance that goes up considerably when you factor in reads, associations, etc.

Due to the whole "4 confirmed town" thing, I think a 1-scum lynch is more informative. Too much to lose for scum to sit back and do nothing imo.

I agree with the one mafia group if possible, the benefits are greater, and the risks are less for day 1.

I am fairly confident group 2 is NOT a 2 mafia group. I have town reads on calix and captain dictionary. This would mean either myself, spruance, or whoever the other guy in our group is mafia. If I am not night killed, learn I am town, then we have a good chance at hitting in our group on day 2.

I think the mafia in group 1 has not posted yet. Honestly I expected the mafia to pressure me for my role more than they have. This leads me to believe 1-2 of the mafia have not posted yet or a lot, or that I am mafia and they need to fucking soft claim this to me before I lynch them all lol.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Alcohol might be the worst thing ever invented. Act dumb while on it, then it wakes you up in the middle of the night, and can not go back to bed. Now a hangover. Like what am I doing with my life.

Cannn you feel the loveeeeeeee tonightttttttttttt.

SO what do we think the over/under is for RLvg's post count this game?
JealousTL hey

[JealousTL]

I don't know if 2v2 parity makes us lose because surely the Mafia could just avoid the 2-scum group on D1, night-kill a townie from the 2-scum group and win by Night 1, right?

I asked and apparently it's in the setup thread but I can't find where this is explained. If someone could help out, it would be good.
Lynching a townie from a 3v2 group makes us lose automatically because we create 2v2, then mafia lynches 1 of the 2 remaining townies and achieves majority at the end of N1, which is why I think that it is a solid strategy for scum to push a group where they have a 60% chance of winning on D1 when reads are less concrete.

Re: "What do you make of the individual voters on the train?"

Although I am slightly WIFOM on PLZLEAVEDUCKK I am leaning town on him for now. The rest, I have simply not seen enough to make a conclusion. I like that you are making moves in this game and more or less leading at the moment, but it might be a timezone thing. Either way, I don't necessarily suspect anyone in particular at the moment given that sheeping can be endemic and thus conceal whether a person is town or scum trying to profit. I'm suspicious of the relative strength of the motion. We know as per Quick that 13 players have confirmed, so the activity measure you have brought up is in my opinion a moot point. It could be a very vocal mafia group leading the charge or a very silent one allowing an existing motion to gain traction among townies, or anywhere in between. This may be my paranoia speaking, but switching a bunch of votes could lead to things. I would be more explicit but I don't want to reveal what I think scum should do in that scenario on the off-chance that this is the case.

[Gingerape]

someone said soft!
Oh. I totally change my mind from last night. I've given it some thought and the setup pretty much 100% is a 2/1/1 mafia setup right? If there were 0 mafia in a group then they would automatically get shuffled into a new group? Correct me if I'm wrong.

This game seems like it will be only a few days long if I'm thinking correctly.

So I'll go through all the day/night one options that I'm thinking can happen:

Ok so we pick a group with one mafia and lynch him (best ^^)
That also means mafia night actions wont matter a ton. But the group will be reshuffled...giving us a group with 2 mafia and a group with one...but...we get 4 absolute trusted townmembers that we can believe in.
As well as a larger majority vote in each group.

So we pick a group with 2 mafia and lynch a mafia (second best case scenario in my opinion)
That means mafia night actions aren't an immediate threat, and our investigative roles have a longer time to find these guys. It also means there's confirmed only one mafia in each group so it'll be harder for them to get a majority.


^^

Oh...now if we pick a group with 1 mafia and lynch a town....
Well, mafia will probably try to take out a member of town at night from their 2 person group to put pressure on us or they will win by the next morning. However it gives us a good 50% shot of hitting a mafia member since it will be 2/2 tomorrow.
i feel like this is pretty much the only course of action mafia will take if they want to win quickly.

If we pick a group with 2 mafia and lynch a town~
Oh. That's game over by the morning ~<3

[JealousTL]

Alcohol might be the worst thing ever invented. Act dumb while on it, then it wakes you up in the middle of the night, and can not go back to bed. Now a hangover. Like what am I doing with my life.

Cannn you feel the loveeeeeeee tonightttttttttttt.

SO what do we think the over/under is for RLvg's post count this game?
JealousTL hey

Hi! Just for the record, on days when I don't have a depressing amount of work to do, this time would probably be the absolute worst time to send me a shout-out. Anyway, anything in particular you wanted to discuss?

PS: Just drink a lot of water, really no way to get through it other than that IMO.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Lynching a townie from a 3v2 group makes us lose automatically because we create 2v2, then mafia lynches 1 of the 2 remaining townies and achieves majority at the end of N1, which is why I think that it is a solid strategy for scum to push a group where they have a 60% chance of winning on D1 when reads are less concrete.

Re: "What do you make of the individual voters on the train?"

Although I am slightly WIFOM on PLZLEAVEDUCKK I am leaning town on him for now. The rest, I have simply not seen enough to make a conclusion. I like that you are making moves in this game and more or less leading at the moment, but it might be a timezone thing. Either way, I don't necessarily suspect anyone in particular at the moment given that sheeping can be endemic and thus conceal whether a person is town or scum trying to profit. I'm suspicious of the relative strength of the motion. We know as per Quick that 13 players have confirmed, so the activity measure you have brought up is in my opinion a moot point. It could be a very vocal mafia group leading the charge or a very silent one allowing an existing motion to gain traction among townies, or anywhere in between. This may be my paranoia speaking, but switching a bunch of votes could lead to things. I would be more explicit but I don't want to reveal what I think scum should do in that scenario on the off-chance that this is the case.

hahaahahahaa putting mafia, group, vocal in the same sentence on this site is a real knee slapper. sc2mafia meta 101, scum lurk and waste our time.

Also I am going to reiterate this again, You can NOT have a town lean on me. IT IS ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. The one way it would be possible is if you scum read certain people and think they are against me, thus making me town barring any distancing/bussing. However, your post mentioned that you do not suspect anyone too heavily yet. I do not know my alignment, and we have already agreed that If I am lying, I am only lying as MAFIA!!

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Hi! Just for the record, on days when I don't have a depressing amount of work to do, this time would probably be the absolute worst time to send me a shout-out. Anyway, anything in particular you wanted to discuss?

PS: Just drink a lot of water, really no way to get through it other than that IMO.

I will discuss anything with anyone, you will notice I will be on the thread most of the time with minimal sleep. The site has a lot of people who view the thread then leave, so I like to just ping them out to encourage interaction.

I have read team liquid games, so I can see why this may be a bit different for you.

[JealousTL]

someone said soft!
Oh. I totally change my mind from last night. I've given it some thought and the setup pretty much 100% is a 2/1/1 mafia setup right? If there were 0 mafia in a group then they would automatically get shuffled into a new group? Correct me if I'm wrong.

This game seems like it will be only a few days long if I'm thinking correctly.

So I'll go through all the day/night one options that I'm thinking can happen:

Ok so we pick a group with one mafia and lynch him (best ^^)
That also means mafia night actions wont matter a ton. But the group will be reshuffled...giving us a group with 2 mafia and a group with one...but...we get 4 absolute trusted townmembers that we can believe in.
As well as a larger majority vote in each group.

So we pick a group with 2 mafia and lynch a mafia (second best case scenario in my opinion)
That means mafia night actions aren't an immediate threat, and our investigative roles have a longer time to find these guys. It also means there's confirmed only one mafia in each group so it'll be harder for them to get a majority.


^^

Oh...now if we pick a group with 1 mafia and lynch a town....
Well, mafia will probably try to take out a member of town at night from their 2 person group to put pressure on us or they will win by the next morning. However it gives us a good 50% shot of hitting a mafia member since it will be 2/2 tomorrow.
i feel like this is pretty much the only course of action mafia will take if they want to win quickly.

If we pick a group with 2 mafia and lynch a town~
Oh. That's game over by the morning ~<3
Decent post, I agree with more or less everything stated here. The 2/1/1 being confirmed was discussed before but restating it is no crime. Not sure I like your stating openly what mafia "should" do in the case of "1 mafia group and lynch town,' partially because I feel there is some potential for misdirection and that potential rises when town makes that evident. Either way, I am glad I didn't tunnel on you and you've posted something more-or-less constructive in terms of breakdown.

[JealousTL]

hahaahahahaa putting mafia, group, vocal in the same sentence on this site is a real knee slapper. sc2mafia meta 101, scum lurk and waste our time.

Also I am going to reiterate this again, You can NOT have a town lean on me. IT IS ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. The one way it would be possible is if you scum read certain people and think they are against me, thus making me town barring any distancing/bussing. However, your post mentioned that you do not suspect anyone too heavily yet. I do not know my alignment, and we have already agreed that If I am lying, I am only lying as MAFIA!!

I will say it openly, if I was scum I would try pretty hard. I think you said the same thing a few pages ago, but please correct me if I am wrong.

And as I said before, "townlean" is not the right term but the concept of "not a scumlean" still applies in the sense that I am inclined to believe that you are being earnest in your alignment ambiguity woes. If I had a scumlean on you it would be because you are scum that is lying, as you said. So the opposite of that is usually townlean, hence the potential confusion. I apologize for that, I will try to be more vigilant in the future with this wording. So, in short, I see you as "not a cognizant scum," as of now but that read is admittedly rather weak.


I will discuss anything with anyone, you will notice I will be on the thread most of the time with minimal sleep. The site has a lot of people who view the thread then leave, so I like to just ping them out to encourage interaction.

I have read team liquid games, so I can see why this may be a bit different for you.

I'm not that type. I generally only view the thread when I am ready to respond. I generally respond between 13:00-02:00 EDT depending on the day and schedule, but rarely deviating from that.

To be fair, as I had stated in the sign-up thread, I am by no means a vet on any forum, including TeamLiquid. The things I say are my impressions as a relative newbie to that forum's mafia games as well. I honestly don't know why I was chosen for an "experienced player" game ;-; All I did was lead a mislynch against Quick in D1.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I will say it openly, if I was scum I would try pretty hard. I think you said the same thing a few pages ago, but please correct me if I am wrong.

And as I said before, "townlean" is not the right term but the concept of "not a scumlean" still applies in the sense that I am inclined to believe that you are being earnest in your alignment ambiguity woes. If I had a scumlean on you it would be because you are scum that is lying, as you said. So the opposite of that is usually townlean, hence the potential confusion. I apologize for that, I will try to be more vigilant in the future with this wording. So, in short, I see you as "not a cognizant scum," as of now but that read is admittedly rather weak.



I'm not that type. I generally only view the thread when I am ready to respond. I generally respond between 13:00-02:00 EDT depending on the day and schedule, but rarely deviating from that.

To be fair, as I had stated in the sign-up thread, I am by no means a vet on any forum, including TeamLiquid. The things I say are my impressions as a relative newbie to that forum's mafia games as well. I honestly don't know why I was chosen for an "experienced player" game ;-; All I did was lead a mislynch against Quick in D1.

"all I did was lead a mislynch against Quick in D1"

Doing the fucking Lords work. You are honestly the hero town needs.

As for your read on me, it makes sense now. I was confused as first because to say you had a town lean on me with no context would be heavily mafia indicative at this point, but your reasoning and play has been seemingly from a town perspective. I am glad you cleared that up for me.

I am willing to switch from group 3 to my group to vote between slayer and spruance. If town decides they want to yolo it on me, we can uh... discuss that...

[JealousTL]

"all I did was lead a mislynch against Quick in D1"

Doing the fucking Lords work. You are honestly the hero town needs.

As for your read on me, it makes sense now. I was confused as first because to say you had a town lean on me with no context would be heavily mafia indicative at this point, but your reasoning and play has been seemingly from a town perspective. I am glad you cleared that up for me.

I am willing to switch from group 3 to my group to vote between slayer and spruance. If town decides they want to yolo it on me, we can uh... discuss that...

Hahaha xD I think I should include the fact that I was actually town and instigated a mislynch against Quick who was also town because I tunneled on his trolly behavior. That probably makes my story a bit more pathetic.

Glad I could get my point across. I feel like sometimes I write many words but I don't accurately convey my meaning. It sucks.

I would rather not be so hasty in such a decision, main reason being timezones and work/sleep schedules. I am thankful that this first day fell on a weekend, but I also feel a trepidation in targeting anyone for inactivity in the first ~16 hours. The next 8 hours should be interesting and I would be willing to vote for my group given my logic of not wanting a free Group 3 vote. Group 1 seems to be the more quiet group so far, however, so I'd rather they raise their activity soon. If I were to vote as of this moment, it would be them.

Actually, given that there is only 8 hours left and that will likely include me working for 2-3 more hours and sleeping for the rest, I will park my vote on Group 1. Not sure how you guys do the hotlink for Group 1, so hopefully I get this right (if not, please inform me on how to do this properly in the next 15-30 minutes):

-Group1

[Gingerape]

awoo.
Oh...sorry duck. I think you're an evil mafia.
It's not your fault.
I just think that the host thought of this scenario where mafia kinda all steer everyone for the group with two people in it and attempt a game winning mislynch on day 1.
Shhhh. I'll pet you if it makes you feel better.

I just...there's a special hidden mechanic in the game with you. And there's also one group that has two mafia instead of one.
I just think they coincide.

Sorry. I love you but you scare me and I irony want to vote your group because I believe it has 2 mafia. You're probably one of them and you don't know it ^^

[Calix]

Lynching a townie from a 3v2 group makes us lose automatically because we create 2v2, then mafia lynches 1 of the 2 remaining townies and achieves majority at the end of N1, which is why I think that it is a solid strategy for scum to push a group where they have a 60% chance of winning on D1 when reads are less concrete.

Re: "What do you make of the individual voters on the train?"

Although I am slightly WIFOM on PLZLEAVEDUCKK I am leaning town on him for now. The rest, I have simply not seen enough to make a conclusion. I like that you are making moves in this game and more or less leading at the moment, but it might be a timezone thing. Either way, I don't necessarily suspect anyone in particular at the moment given that sheeping can be endemic and thus conceal whether a person is town or scum trying to profit. I'm suspicious of the relative strength of the motion. We know as per Quick that 13 players have confirmed, so the activity measure you have brought up is in my opinion a moot point. It could be a very vocal mafia group leading the charge or a very silent one allowing an existing motion to gain traction among townies, or anywhere in between. This may be my paranoia speaking, but switching a bunch of votes could lead to things. I would be more explicit but I don't want to reveal what I think scum should do in that scenario on the off-chance that this is the case.

Nah, I usually like to lead and be in charge. I am actually being less vocal/ demanding than usual (due to not wanting to clog the thread and make it hard for people to catch up, RL commitments, etc) - it's just how I operate.

You make a good point about the 13/15 confirmed-sign players.

Also you are self-aware about the possibility but I can't help but read this part as townie paranoia.


hahaahahahaa putting mafia, group, vocal in the same sentence on this site is a real knee slapper. sc2mafia meta 101, scum lurk and waste our time.

Given that this isn't going to be a long-term game, having the scum choose to lurk would ruin the entire point of the game. I imagine that Quick would replace/ extend the day/ modkill as necessary so that all factions have a fair chance. It's not fair for town to end up turning on each other because the scum couldn't be arsed to turn up.


"all I did was lead a mislynch against Quick in D1"

Doing the fucking Lords work. You are honestly the hero town needs.

I am willing to switch from group 3 to my group to vote between slayer and spruance. If town decides they want to yolo it on me, we can uh... discuss that...

lmao

Although I don't wish to switch, I can meta-read Spruance to an extent, at least. I have no idea about Slayer, but apparently he's a mod player - have you played with him before? What is his playstyle like?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Hahaha xD I think I should include the fact that I was actually town and instigated a mislynch against Quick who was also town because I tunneled on his trolly behavior. That probably makes my story a bit more pathetic.

Glad I could get my point across. I feel like sometimes I write many words but I don't accurately convey my meaning. It sucks.

I would rather not be so hasty in such a decision, main reason being timezones and work/sleep schedules. I am thankful that this first day fell on a weekend, but I also feel a trepidation in targeting anyone for inactivity in the first ~16 hours. The next 8 hours should be interesting and I would be willing to vote for my group given my logic of not wanting a free Group 3 vote. Group 1 seems to be the more quiet group so far, however, so I'd rather they raise their activity soon. If I were to vote as of this moment, it would be them.

Actually, given that there is only 8 hours left and that will likely include me working for 2-3 more hours and sleeping for the rest, I will park my vote on Group 1. Not sure how you guys do the hotlink for Group 1, so hopefully I get this right (if not, please inform me on how to do this properly in the next 15-30 minutes):

-Group1

Imagine the quote /quote brackets as vote and type what you are voting for so

group 1

[Calix]

Jealous, you need to use vote tags.

[vote]GROUP X[./vote]

Remove the .

[JealousTL]

Thanks for the help, guys.

Group 1

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

awoo.
Oh...sorry duck. I think you're an evil mafia.
It's not your fault.
I just think that the host thought of this scenario where mafia kinda all steer everyone for the group with two people in it and attempt a game winning mislynch on day 1.
Shhhh. I'll pet you if it makes you feel better.

I just...there's a special hidden mechanic in the game with you. And there's also one group that has two mafia instead of one.
I just think they coincide.

Sorry. I love you but you scare me and I irony want to vote your group because I believe it has 2 mafia. You're probably one of them and you don't know it ^^

You might be right about me being mafia, and in the two mafia group. I actually really like this comment as it seems to be a read not easily thought of and outside of the box. The only downside is that would mean I hate my alignment, and that I am stuck with either a mod player or spruance LOL NO FUCK THAT.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Nah, I usually like to lead and be in charge. I am actually being less vocal/ demanding than usual (due to not wanting to clog the thread and make it hard for people to catch up, RL commitments, etc) - it's just how I operate.

You make a good point about the 13/15 confirmed-sign players.

Also you are self-aware about the possibility but I can't help but read this part as townie paranoia.



Given that this isn't going to be a long-term game, having the scum choose to lurk would ruin the entire point of the game. I imagine that Quick would replace/ extend the day/ modkill as necessary so that all factions have a fair chance. It's not fair for town to end up turning on each other because the scum couldn't be arsed to turn up.



lmao

Although I don't wish to switch, I can meta-read Spruance to an extent, at least. I have no idea about Slayer, but apparently he's a mod player - have you played with him before? What is his playstyle like?

The name has come up several times, but slayer is a generic name and could be a totally different person. Mod players are usually bad at handling pressure, so I think by pressuring him, and your meta read on spruance, we should be able to get a hit on day 1 from our group.

Potential problem if we town read them both as that means I am the most likely to be a hit, or if you are mafia and having a strong day 1 and then we will probably miss lynch twice in our group.

also PSA: early game reads for me flip on a dime, and while I have some players as extremely strong town and am not considering them for lynches, events in the game, even if they seem to not relate to that person, could cause me to do a complete 180 on them.

[JealousTL]

Nah, I usually like to lead and be in charge. I am actually being less vocal/ demanding than usual (due to not wanting to clog the thread and make it hard for people to catch up, RL commitments, etc) - it's just how I operate.

You make a good point about the 13/15 confirmed-sign players.

Also you are self-aware about the possibility but I can't help but read this part as townie paranoia.
I can respect both what you claim to be your standard approach and why you are not doing it as vehemently right now. I hope that we both stay in this game further so I can read you better/learn from you. I feel that the more vocal players tend to be the better players, because vocal players who suck get lynched early and learn the wrong lessons from their mistakes (in contrast to the generally accepted vocal=town hypothesis).

Townie paranoia is, as always for me, a definite possibility. However, from what I recall at this juncture, the strongest supporting evidence for voting G3 has been that vets are familiar with the players within, and that therefore there are strong players there. Correct me if I am mistaken. This by definition means that scum could be trying to silence or put under defensive pressure the strong players that would otherwise be working to solve the game as opposed to protect their own necks. This also still carries the possibility of a free 60% D1 win condition for scum, if scum has already voted. You've accepted that my 13/15 comment is a valid point; if we pessimistically assume that the other 2 players are still MIA, that means the 4 votes (going by your word here) for G3 make up nearly 1/3rd of the confirmed active player list, and a much greater fraction of the actively posting population. It can't be written off, hence my paranoia.

[Yukitaka Oni]

v)o.o)> c[_] v(o.o(v going to do nothing day 1

[JealousTL]

-_- Maybe I should switch to G3

[Calix]

The name has come up several times, but slayer is a generic name and could be a totally different person. Mod players are usually bad at handling pressure, so I think by pressuring him, and your meta read on spruance, we should be able to get a hit on day 1 from our group.

Potential problem if we town read them both as that means I am the most likely to be a hit, or if you are mafia and having a strong day 1 and then we will probably miss lynch twice in our group.

also PSA: early game reads for me flip on a dime, and while I have some players as extremely strong town and am not considering them for lynches, events in the game, even if they seem to not relate to that person, could cause me to do a complete 180 on them.

Spruance has a very...unique...meta, to put it nicely. Only seen him as scum once so I have to hope that he'll play the same way as it was a recent game. (Politico)

While we're on meta, I'd like to claim. I'm an important Town Power Role, otherwise known as Calix. I'm the same size as a waste bin and I'm just as full of shit. I'm the sort who posts/ contributes a lot regardless of alignment. Typically I'm aggressive, stubborn, and impulsive in how I play, have a bad tendency to tunnel and disregard town tells when pushing my scum-reads because I rarely jot them down and then I forget about them. I'd like to avoid that this game as it ended up badly last time.

Duck can opine on how he views me. I think I'm pretty decent at self-awareness but I could always be better.

[Calix]

v)o.o)> c[_] v(o.o(v going to do nothing day 1

>sees discussion on why we can't afford to fuck around on Day 1
>openly admits to not wanting to do anything on Day 1 after said discussion

Lynch this pls.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I can respect both what you claim to be your standard approach and why you are not doing it as vehemently right now. I hope that we both stay in this game further so I can read you better/learn from you. I feel that the more vocal players tend to be the better players, because vocal players who suck get lynched early and learn the wrong lessons from their mistakes (in contrast to the generally accepted vocal=town hypothesis).

Townie paranoia is, as always for me, a definite possibility. However, from what I recall at this juncture, the strongest supporting evidence for voting G3 has been that vets are familiar with the players within, and that therefore there are strong players there. Correct me if I am mistaken. This by definition means that scum could be trying to silence or put under defensive pressure the strong players that would otherwise be working to solve the game as opposed to protect their own necks. This also still carries the possibility of a free 60% D1 win condition for scum, if scum has already voted. You've accepted that my 13/15 comment is a valid point; if we pessimistically assume that the other 2 players are still MIA, that means the 4 votes (going by your word here) for G3 make up nearly 1/3rd of the confirmed active player list, and a much greater fraction of the actively posting population. It can't be written off, hence my paranoia.

I read all three groups as reasonably balanced. If mafia is voting for a group based on player names it would be because the scum in that group are unlikely to be lynched. For example, our group has calix and myself who both know that we are not going to get lynched barring something drastic. It does not even have to do with our ability to play the game, but I believe due to the site meta of activity = town ( false obviously). If we have two mafia in group 3, but I am the solo mafia in group 2, then I would tell the mafia to pick group 2 because I know I am never getting lynched.

Because of this I think it is more likely mafia is going to go for a group where their "star" players are and will be able to carry their team. Scum do not want to come out and put the spotlight on a strong player when they know they are town because that strong town play will show easily, and then good luck risking the night kill with likely bodyguards in the setup.

[Yukitaka Oni]

>sees discussion on why we can't afford to fuck around on Day 1
>openly admits to not wanting to do anything on Day 1 after said discussion

Lynch this pls.
Come on, why you aim me so badly? What about your illuminati buddy RLVG v(o.o(<?!?! I didn't make any plan yet

[Calix]

I can respect both what you claim to be your standard approach and why you are not doing it as vehemently right now. I hope that we both stay in this game further so I can read you better/learn from you. I feel that the more vocal players tend to be the better players, because vocal players who suck get lynched early and learn the wrong lessons from their mistakes (in contrast to the generally accepted vocal=town hypothesis).

Townie paranoia is, as always for me, a definite possibility. However, from what I recall at this juncture, the strongest supporting evidence for voting G3 has been that vets are familiar with the players within, and that therefore there are strong players there. Correct me if I am mistaken. This by definition means that scum could be trying to silence or put under defensive pressure the strong players that would otherwise be working to solve the game as opposed to protect their own necks. This also still carries the possibility of a free 60% D1 win condition for scum, if scum has already voted. You've accepted that my 13/15 comment is a valid point; if we pessimistically assume that the other 2 players are still MIA, that means the 4 votes (going by your word here) for G3 make up nearly 1/3rd of the confirmed active player list, and a much greater fraction of the actively posting population. It can't be written off, hence my paranoia.

NU, RLVG and Kovath aren't terrible, but you're dealing with the best ;) However RLVG has been doing his damnedest to impersonate ika in recent games while Kovath is busy for the next few days so that makes me wonder wherever they'll even turn up to respond to being voted for.

I don't want to speculate too much on the group choices until other players turn up and respond/ vote, so I'll cut that short.

NU/ Kovath are also more vocal players usually so I wouldn't agree with your theory because I don't think them being scum-read would deter them much FME.

[Calix]

Come on, why you aim me so badly? What about your illuminati buddy RLVG v(o.o(<?!?! I didn't make any plan yet

Because you're deliberately trying to vote for a player based on their experience, even though this has never bothered you before in previous games, you refuse to comment on anything that's happened and then you admit to wanting to slack off when it's been made clear that town can lose very quickly.

Please explain how you're helping the town. Go on, I'll wait.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Spruance has a very...unique...meta, to put it nicely. Only seen him as scum once so I have to hope that he'll play the same way as it was a recent game. (Politico)

While we're on meta, I'd like to claim. I'm an important Town Power Role, otherwise known as Calix. I'm the same size as a waste bin and I'm just as full of shit. I'm the sort who posts/ contributes a lot regardless of alignment. Typically I'm aggressive, stubborn, and impulsive in how I play, have a bad tendency to tunnel and disregard town tells when pushing my scum-reads because I rarely jot them down and then I forget about them. I'd like to avoid that this game as it ended up badly last time.

Duck can opine on how he views me. I think I'm pretty decent at self-awareness but I could always be better.

Your play is fine, I am telling you if you put more emphasis on building a town circle you would be a top tier player.

I feel making a tight town circle for reference would help you when your tunneling was wrong, so rather then being at square one, you have a town circle to go off of.

You seem to town shield scum in recent games, and tunnel on towns. I think a town circle would have made you flip on either your town shielding the scum, or your tunneling the towns.

also I didnt mean to actually vote group 1

group 3

[JealousTL]

You both make good points. WIFOM tells me, almost too good. I will leave my vote parked where it is, go to sleep, and hopefully wake up to a clearer tomorrow-that-is-actually-max-7-hours-from-now because i am getting slammed right now. Thank you for the discussion, it has been a refreshingly pleasant D1 for me for the most part.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Because you're deliberately trying to vote for a player based on their experience, even though this has never bothered you before in previous games, you refuse to comment on anything that's happened and then you admit to wanting to slack off when it's been made clear that town can lose very quickly.

Please explain how you're helping the town. Go on, I'll wait.

Now do you see why I flipped out on him in your last game, and how his follow ups have differed from ginger?

I will say it is likely NAI from him, and that his play did improve over time in the last game.

Group 3:
Not lynching kovath, I have probably the best day 2+ read on kovath here( my day 1 read on him is actually garbage)
yuki - noose
rlvg - wanted to noose him from the start
ginger- I have so many conflicting mafia and town tells that I would be hesitant on this lynch, and if it flips opposite I will probably be very mad with myself as there were plenty of tells to show they were the alignment they were
NU- I played with him yesterday when I was mayor and he literally said "I am to lazy to fake claim"... and then I didnt lynch him and lost to jester rng... sigh. I don't have much experience with him, but he seems to be posting and providing content so I think we will be able to make an educated decision on him.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Because you're deliberately trying to vote for a player based on their experience, even though this has never bothered you before in previous games, you refuse to comment on anything that's happened and then you admit to wanting to slack off when it's been made clear that town can lose very quickly.

Please explain how you're helping the town. Go on, I'll wait.
I told you I don't have a plan yet, not yet. Right now my vote is just to balance the group vote, buy some time. I can go no further at this point. You can't get anymore information from me right now v(o.o)^

[Yukitaka Oni]

Because you're deliberately trying to vote for a player based on their experience, even though this has never bothered you before in previous games, you refuse to comment on anything that's happened and then you admit to wanting to slack off when it's been made clear that town can lose very quickly.

Please explain how you're helping the town. Go on, I'll wait.
Oh wait, how can town loose very quickly v)O.o)v?!?!?!?! Did mafia can kill more than 2 town per night or something?!?!?!?!

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I told you I don't have a plan yet, not yet. Right now my vote is just to balance the group vote, buy some time. I can go no further at this point. You can't get anymore information from me right now v(o.o)^

Hey yuki, how are you doing.

Do you not worry that by "balancing" the group vote, it gives the mafia more power to controlling the decision. If 11 of us split our votes into three groups evenly, mafia will always get the group they want.

We will see I suppose.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I told you I don't have a plan yet, not yet. Right now my vote is just to balance the group vote, buy some time. I can go no further at this point. You can't get anymore information from me right now v(o.o)^

Hey yuki, how are you doing.

Do you not worry that by "balancing" the group vote, it gives the mafia more power to controlling the decision. If 11 of us split our votes into three groups evenly, mafia will always get the group they want.

We will see I suppose.

[Calix]

I told you I don't have a plan yet, not yet. Right now my vote is just to balance the group vote, buy some time. I can go no further at this point. You can't get anymore information from me right now v(o.o)^

Again, your explanation does not add up because you cited completely different reasoning when you actually voted for your group. The only other vote on Group 2 at the time was Titus while Group 3 was well ahead.

Town!Yuki wouldn't care about being pressured/ questioned because it's what you come to expect. You're being unusually responsive/ direct to me now that I've drawn attention to you.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Again, your explanation does not add up because you cited completely different reasoning when you actually voted for your group. The only other vote on Group 2 at the time was Titus while Group 3 was well ahead.

Town!Yuki wouldn't care about being pressured/ questioned because it's what you come to expect. You're being unusually responsive/ direct to me now that I've drawn attention to you.
It's just a joke Calix, Don't make it big. You're big horse around here, I ain't Firebringer to dare solo you 1v1
Why so serious about I poke you v(o.o(<?!?

[Calix]

It's just a joke Calix, Don't make it big.

"I didn't mean it guise. It was a joke! R/SM!"


You're big horse around here, I ain't Firebringer to dare solo you 1v1
Why so serious about I poke you v(o.o(<?!?

I like how you are trying to back down away from the spotlight.

How many bloody explanations do you have for your Group 2 vote? You've literally given 3 or 4 at this point.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Hey yuki, how are you doing.

Do you not worry that by "balancing" the group vote, it gives the mafia more power to controlling the decision. If 11 of us split our votes into three groups evenly, mafia will always get the group they want.

We will see I suppose.
I see...but we don't have real idea about which groups had the most mafia, I don't know which group to pick now. To be honest I even doubt my group right now...

[Calix]

I see...but we don't have real idea about which groups had the most mafia, I don't know which group to pick now. To be honest I even doubt my group right now...

What changed to make you doubt your group members?

[Yukitaka Oni]

"I didn't mean it guise. It was a joke! R/SM!"



I like how you are trying to back down away from the spotlight.

How many bloody explanations do you have for your Group 2 vote? You've literally given 3 or 4 at this point.
Stop please, you're not my target. <(o.o(v

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

"I didn't mean it guise. It was a joke! R/SM!"



I like how you are trying to back down away from the spotlight.

How many bloody explanations do you have for your Group 2 vote? You've literally given 3 or 4 at this point.

Fucking hilarious. I would say keep it up and I will night kill you, but by the time I remember my role you will already be night killed or confirmed mafia :P

[Yukitaka Oni]

What changed to make you doubt your group members?
I'm a Snow Eagle v)o.o)> I trust no one remember?

[Calix]

Stop please, you're not my target. <(o.o(v

"Calix-chan pls, you're drawing attention to the fact that I'm not doing anything in the thread."

And your target is? You weren't doing anything.

[Yukitaka Oni]

What changed to make you doubt your group members?
Blame MikeVipe for mafia game loading screen: Trust no one, except yourself
But i went deeper: I trust no one, not even myself
I already declared that every game i trust no one v(o.o(<

[Yukitaka Oni]

"Calix-chan pls, you're drawing attention to the fact that I'm not doing anything in the thread."

And your target is? You weren't doing anything.
i have to repeat again? I have no plan at the moment. I'm allow you to get any information from me but I am NOT allow you to order me or control my vote power. Don't cross the line Calix v)x.o)>

[Calix]

Blame MikeVipe for mafia game loading screen: Trust no one, except yourself
But i went deeper: I trust no one, not even myself
I already declared that every game i trust no one v(o.o(<

If you can't trust yourself, isn't that basically a scum claim? :laugh:

[Calix]

i have to repeat again? I have no plan at the moment. I'm allow you to get any information from me but I am NOT allow you to order me or control my vote power. Don't cross the line Calix v)x.o)>

"I have no plan." - This implies that you have no agenda in the thread.

"Stop, you're not my target." - This implies that I am distracting you from an agenda in the thread.

These two lines of thought do not go together.

How have I been trying to control your vote power? I have been questioning you/ asking you to contribute.

[Yukitaka Oni]

"I have no plan." - This implies that you have no agenda in the thread.

"Stop, you're not my target." - This implies that I am distracting you from an agenda in the thread.

These two lines of thought do not go together.

How have I been trying to control your vote power? I have been questioning you/ asking you to contribute.
I'm still confused about the group vote mechanics here. Since this is my first time playing with this group mechanism

[Yukitaka Oni]

If you can't trust yourself, isn't that basically a scum claim? :laugh:
Deceiving myself it's also a part of my plan in every game. Back to Koopalitic i even give a lot of hint that i am a scum, or even in mafia war I already claim i am a scum, amirite v(o.o(<?!?!?
Self-Hypothesis
Two plus two equal five

[Calix]

I'm still confused about the group vote mechanics here. Since this is my first time playing with this group mechanism

You haven't said how there ISN'T a discrepancy in the two thought processes I outlined in the post above, nor have you explained how or why you thought I was trying to control your vote.

What about the mechanics don't make sense to you?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I am like a crack whore obsessed with posting, so I will post where I am at with a brief synopsis rather than detailed ISO's.

1. Never Unlucky - not much from him so far but leaning town. I think if he does flip scum it confirms that calix and myself are town as his avoidance of group b as scum would mean that his partner in that group is likely to get lynched.
2. JealousTL - I see town motivation in his posts. I feel a town trying to solve the game vibe here.
4. Gingerape - Breadcrumbs so openly, too scummy to be scum type play? However, I have also seen well thought out logic, and I liked that she went along with my terrible analogy. I think mafia would have been more likely to just call me an idiot and move on rather than continue discussing it and trying to get both of us to the same place.
6. Yukitaka Oni - I personally saw the responses as NAI, but if calix believes Yuki is more defensive than normal, he began to conform more to his usual yuki self afterwards, and could be a mafia trying to correct behavior that got him pinged out.
7. Shapelog - had a scum read on him for his opening. Went back and reread the first page and realized he was not pulling a g4slight but referencing that the game started because 13 players confirmed, and not that he was player 13. I will need to third read his posts before I put him anywhere so he is null for me.
11. Titus - Pretty strong town so far. The considering of all possibilities and reevaluating them this early on is a good sign that they do not have perfect information.
12. PLZLEAVEDUCKK - Hi.
13. Calix - Don't even know what her mafia play is, but her play this game is definitely different. Players change their playstyle all of the time, and they should. Based on the play alone I am leaning town. I don't think finding the best course of action for town to take is AI as she would and should be doing it as both alignments. I think her questions have been from a town mindset this game. My worry is that she is being a bit too public relations focused. Will have to juggle if I think this is calix trying to adjust her play from previous games or if she is mafia and does not want to start a war.
14. Kovath- Never lynching him today, he is likely mafia. Yes I mean't what I just typed. He is busy so he will be a tough read for day 1, but town Kovath does not open the way he did this game. I do not want to lynch him because my day 1 read on him sucks, my day 2 read on him is amazing, and I forgot my third reason, but I promise you it sucked.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

i have to repeat again? I have no plan at the moment. I'm allow you to get any information from me but I am NOT allow you to order me or control my vote power. Don't cross the line Calix v)x.o)>

Was about to tell calix to back off of you thinking you were softing a PR here, then I remembered you did a similar post in the previous game as VT and it is just your posting style lol

[Yukitaka Oni]

You haven't said how there ISN'T a discrepancy in the two thought processes I outlined in the post above, nor have you explained how or why you thought I was trying to control your vote.

What about the mechanics don't make sense to you?
Let's say if everyone vote group 1, i know it doesn't mean game going to lynch entire player in the group, but does that mean the next day, people have to pick the group again or only can lynch the player in the group 1? It's kind of....confused v(o.o(<

[Yukitaka Oni]

Was about to tell calix to back off of you thinking you were softing a PR here, then I remembered you did a similar post in the previous game as VT and it is just your posting style lol
Sorry, i will not softclaim any role this time day 1. Gotta change my play style, doesn't mean I have any good plan at the moment...<(o.o)>

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Let's say if everyone vote group 1, i know it doesn't mean game going to lynch entire player in the group, but does that mean the next day, people have to pick the group again or only can lynch the player in the group 1? It's kind of....confused v(o.o(<

Pick any group on any day.

I also believe there is a hidden mechanic to prevent town from losing on night 1. There is no way with 4 votes that it is possible for town to lose after one miss lynch.

[Calix]

I am like a crack whore obsessed with posting, so I will post where I am at with a brief synopsis rather than detailed ISO's.

1. Never Unlucky - not much from him so far but leaning town. I think if he does flip scum it confirms that calix and myself are town as his avoidance of group b as scum would mean that his partner in that group is likely to get lynched.
2. JealousTL - I see town motivation in his posts. I feel a town trying to solve the game vibe here.
4. Gingerape - Breadcrumbs so openly, too scummy to be scum type play? However, I have also seen well thought out logic, and I liked that she went along with my terrible analogy. I think mafia would have been more likely to just call me an idiot and move on rather than continue discussing it and trying to get both of us to the same place.
6. Yukitaka Oni - I personally saw the responses as NAI, but if calix believes Yuki is more defensive than normal, he began to conform more to his usual yuki self afterwards, and could be a mafia trying to correct behavior that got him pinged out.
7. Shapelog - had a scum read on him for his opening. Went back and reread the first page and realized he was not pulling a g4slight but referencing that the game started because 13 players confirmed, and not that he was player 13. I will need to third read his posts before I put him anywhere so he is null for me.
11. Titus - Pretty strong town so far. The considering of all possibilities and reevaluating them this early on is a good sign that they do not have perfect information.
12. PLZLEAVEDUCKK - Hi.
13. Calix - Don't even know what her mafia play is, but her play this game is definitely different. Players change their playstyle all of the time, and they should. Based on the play alone I am leaning town. I don't think finding the best course of action for town to take is AI as she would and should be doing it as both alignments. I think her questions have been from a town mindset this game. My worry is that she is being a bit too public relations focused. Will have to juggle if I think this is calix trying to adjust her play from previous games or if she is mafia and does not want to start a war.
14. Kovath- Never lynching him today, he is likely mafia. Yes I mean't what I just typed. He is busy so he will be a tough read for day 1, but town Kovath does not open the way he did this game. I do not want to lynch him because my day 1 read on him sucks, my day 2 read on him is amazing, and I forgot my third reason, but I promise you it sucked.

>making reads lists

:laugh:

That aside, doing that is a dangerous play for scum because they can slip in so many ways by dumping all of their reads into one post for everyone to see.

Your #11 point seems like it would apply here, actually. Looks like everything you said has enough backing in the thread and isn't making any stretches or using hidden information which makes your "I don't have a rolecard" post seem more legit > WIFOM9000 master plan.

In regards to reads, I think the majority of the scum are inactive. It doesn't feel like there's been any kind of scum manipulation or disruption going on in the thread - most of it was just Jealous/ me/ you prancing around and singing kumbaya and nobody was trying to break that up at all.

I laugh at this.

[Yukitaka Oni]

You haven't said how there ISN'T a discrepancy in the two thought processes I outlined in the post above, nor have you explained how or why you thought I was trying to control your vote.

What about the mechanics don't make sense to you?
Beside, what if Traitor were lynched before all other mafia is died, does that mean game count him as town?!?!?!
Eh....too many questions I guess, you could just ignore it if you want to. I don't want to disturb your plan or your reading scum right now v(o.o(<

[Calix]

Let's say if everyone vote group 1, i know it doesn't mean game going to lynch entire player in the group, but does that mean the next day, people have to pick the group again or only can lynch the player in the group 1? It's kind of....confused v(o.o(<

Your query can be found here:


When all members of the mafia are lynched from a group, the remaining members of that will join the remaining group(s) as evenly as possible but will be random what players will join what group where applicable.I will be telling all the players what groups all players belong to at the beginning of DP: I for all days.
The group that was chosen will have a player lynched from that group.
The group that is chosen to lynch from cannot vote for lynch.
The same group may be chosen on consecutive days.
Mafia has to lynch from the Group that was chosen to lynch from.
All night actions proceed as normal.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Pick any group on any day.

I also believe there is a hidden mechanic to prevent town from losing on night 1. There is no way with 4 votes that it is possible for town to lose after one miss lynch.
I don't understand, there are 11 town, let's say if we mislynch today and mafia kill a town, that mean there are still 9 town left (am I right or there is something I am wrong?)

[Yukitaka Oni]

Your query can be found here:
Already read it but....I don't have any examples to understand it more clearly. That's my main problem

[Calix]

I don't understand, there are 11 town, let's say if we mislynch today and mafia kill a town, that mean there are still 9 town left (am I right or there is something I am wrong?)

Mafia's win condition is to gain majority among any one of the groups.

One of the groups has 2 scum. The other two groups has 1 scum.




GROUP 1


GROUP 2


GROUP 3



Titus
Shapelog
MattZed
Klingoncelt
Alles_Paletti
Calix
JealousTL
Slayer
PLZLEAVEDUCKK
Sprunce
Gingerape
RLVG
Kovath
Yukitaka Oni
Never Unlucky




So no, we cannot determine how many mislynches we have afforded to us. I am going to act as if we don't have any.

[Calix]

I'm only paging this because I suspect that the no-posters will also have queries over the setup and using the first 24 hours to ensure that people know what they're doing seems like the best move to me.

Anyhow, I'll be popping off for a bit. I expect SOMETHING to happen by the time I get back. Can't prod you all forever.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Mafia's win condition is to gain majority among any one of the groups.

One of the groups has 2 scum. The other two groups has 1 scum.




GROUP 1


GROUP 2


GROUP 3



Titus
Shapelog
MattZed
Klingoncelt
Alles_Paletti
Calix
JealousTL
Slayer
PLZLEAVEDUCKK
Sprunce
Gingerape
RLVG
Kovath
Yukitaka Oni
Never Unlucky




So no, we cannot determine how many mislynches we have afforded to us. I am going to act as if we don't have any.
I see. Thanks b)o.o)^!

[Yukitaka Oni]

No wonder why this setup have a lot of town power....

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

>making reads lists

:laugh:

That aside, doing that is a dangerous play for scum because they can slip in so many ways by dumping all of their reads into one post for everyone to see.

Your #11 point seems like it would apply here, actually. Looks like everything you said has enough backing in the thread and isn't making any stretches or using hidden information which makes your "I don't have a rolecard" post seem more legit > WIFOM9000 master plan.

In regards to reads, I think the majority of the scum are inactive. It doesn't feel like there's been any kind of scum manipulation or disruption going on in the thread - most of it was just Jealous/ me/ you prancing around and singing kumbaya and nobody was trying to break that up at all.

I laugh at this.

Did your first comment indicate you dislike the idea of read list or more that it is funny the person who does not know their alignment is trying to tell people their reads.

Read lists are just a staple of my play as every alignment. It

1) gives me a way to not get complacent on my reads and makes me remind myself of why I read people x
2) I am able to show a consistent (or be called out for inconsistent) game.

I am a bit worried that you are accepting my claim as true based on this post. You state that the game has just been US 4 prancing around. I don't need perfect information to give out accurate reads at this point in the game because I have been apart of everything, and as I am sure you know, I interject into fucking everything.

Then there is the whole "i don't think the scum have been manipulating us". I agree with this 100% if you are town, but if you are mafia this game it falls in line with what I would expect.

To clarify, if you just said "duck I think you could actually be telling the truth based on your reads list" I would expect it was because of my kovath read and not that my reads are feasible at this point in the game. You laugh at the main thing pointing to me being the real duck which I am sad about.

My dog keeps fucking up my train of thought, I don't even know where I was going or if I had a point in this entire post.

[Titus]

Calix, I am on board with frying Yuki as well. It's a joke in RVS screams lynch them from my own personal experience. I'd prefer group 2 but that desire is waning since I can only get Yuki there.

Basically, I am ok with Yuki or ginger flipping.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Calix, I am on board with frying Yuki as well. It's a joke in RVS screams lynch them from my own personal experience. I'd prefer group 2 but that desire is waning since I can only get Yuki there.

Basically, I am ok with Yuki or ginger flipping.

In a normal game I would lynch ginger, but with the potential to have 0 miss lynches, are you more confident that they are mafia or that they could be mafia and will give a lot of information from their flip?

Yuki is more of a day 2 player from my one game experience, but I am willing to entertain this lynch.

My lynch order from group 3(1 being want dead the most)

1)rlvg
2)kovath
3)yuki
4)Ginger
5)NU

I think my list might be a huge mistake though. RLVG is top just because of lack of activity, and the next three players in line all have reasonable spots to be pinged out for as scum. I think kovath being able to speak more, hes in the thread, and NU posting will help clear this up.

Hmm actually rlvg might just be a terrible lynch at this point.... fuck me.

[Kovath]

In a normal game I would lynch ginger, but with the potential to have 0 miss lynches, are you more confident that they are mafia or that they could be mafia and will give a lot of information from their flip?

Yuki is more of a day 2 player from my one game experience, but I am willing to entertain this lynch.

My lynch order from group 3(1 being want dead the most)

1)rlvg
2)kovath
3)yuki
4)Ginger
5)NU

I think my list might be a huge mistake though. RLVG is top just because of lack of activity, and the next three players in line all have reasonable spots to be pinged out for as scum. I think kovath being able to speak more, hes in the thread, and NU posting will help clear this up.

Hmm actually rlvg might just be a terrible lynch at this point.... fuck me.

Your one-game experience with Yuki was IM, wasn't it? How can you judge "day 2 player" off that?

What made you change your mind about RLVG?

Also, Calix is correct and I am currently out-of-town in a tournament. I will try my best but nowhere close to my normal activity levels. I'll be present for several-hour intervals around days.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Your one-game experience with Yuki was IM, wasn't it? How can you judge "day 2 player" off that?

What made you change your mind about RLVG?

Also, Calix is correct and I am currently out-of-town in a tournament. I will try my best but nowhere close to my normal activity levels. I'll be present for several-hour intervals around days.

Oh whoops, yeah that was an error by me. I was thinking about how he stepped up his game in the second half of the day and mistook it for a day 2, smh.

I changed my mind about rlvg because while I do not feel any of you, yuki, or ginger have enough mafia credit to be lynched currently, I see enough potential for mafia in you three where the odds are at least one of you is probably a hit, and rlvg is prob inno child. Well not inno child, but not a good lynch for day 1,

[Kovath]

Oh whoops, yeah that was an error by me. I was thinking about how he stepped up his game in the second half of the day and mistook it for a day 2, smh.

I changed my mind about rlvg because while I do not feel any of you, yuki, or ginger have enough mafia credit to be lynched currently, I see enough potential for mafia in you three where the odds are at least one of you is probably a hit, and rlvg is prob inno child. Well not inno child, but not a good lynch for day 1,

What do you even mean here lol, you first say he is probably a town role and then just say he's not a good lynch?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

What do you even mean here lol, you first say he is probably a town role and then just say he's not a good lynch?

We know that there is one mafia in every group. I started the game wanting to lynch him based on his recent activity. The game progressed, and three people in his group have been viewed as somewhat scummy. It is likely that one of the scummy people is actual scum. This means he is likely town. Upon rethinking as I was typing I realized, well he could still be in the group with 2 mafia, so maybe he is not town, but to lynch him under the assumption that he is in the 2 mafia group and over scummier players would be bad.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Your one-game experience with Yuki was IM, wasn't it? How can you judge "day 2 player" off that?

What made you change your mind about RLVG?

Also, Calix is correct and I am currently out-of-town in a tournament. I will try my best but nowhere close to my normal activity levels. I'll be present for several-hour intervals around days.
Leave it be, he didn't know i played more than 100 games

[Kovath]

Here is what we know:

1) If I am lieing, I am always mafia and doing this
2) I will likely have cooridnated this in night chat already and my partner will be going along with it in some way or fashion?

If you can find town or mafia motivation in what happened to me share it, and use it for or against me.

I have stated many times in previous games that I DO NOT plan my opening posts or plays. I do everything as it happens, if you think that is alignment indicative then read me in that way, because guess what I can't fucking tell you if you are right or wrong about me.


2. Wait, did the mafia even have a N0 chat?


zzzzz I hope I am mafia, because this post has calix as my new top town. Her thinking literally has mimic'ed mine. While this is not exactly indicative that I am the same alignment as her (assuming I am infact town), it does show that she wants to be able to vote on people SHE KNOWS HOW TO READ. Town perspective from calix so far IMO.

Also, I want to say Calix not bandwagoning titus when she was gifted an option is potentially a

1) calix is town, titus is mafia
2) calix is town, titus is town and open minded (what I am slightly leaning towards)
3) calix is mafia WITH ME, titus is town.

I don't think I am ever mafia with titus based on this opening reaction by her.

The setup has nothing at all about a scum N0 chat (unless it's a hidden mechanic in which case... fk me lol). So, this exchange strikes me as strange because Duck first suggests N0 coordination as what would probably be the case if he was mafia and had pre-planned this. Assuming that Duck has fully read through the setup, why wouldn't Duck immediately rule out that possibility for him as mafia in either his original post or after Calix brought it up? Or at least make some comment about it to reinforce his point that he wasn't lying in his claim?

Drunk Duck might be the explanation for this, however, and I don't think he was lying about being drunk lol. The primary no-lynch perspective otherwise I might see for this would be that he is approaching this game as town and thus brushes past it because then he would 'know' that he was town, but I am unsure whether he is able to so strongly believe it. All that said, there will probably be better lynches than Duck today.

[RLVG]

I don't know who Shapelog and Alles_Paletti is, but wow, MattZed and Titus in the same group? And Klingoncelt too?

I'm not voting Group 1, just hope that the three of them are not scum lol.

Group 2


Group 1

Guess this is the part where we talk about the setup? Not sure if I understand it correctly myself, but each group has 1 or 2 scum in it, right?

Assuming that's correct, we already have a lot of information about which scum teams AREN'T possible in the game.

I don't think we're ready to guess scum among MattZed, Titus and Klingoncelt.


Vote count isn't working. @Cryptonic (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=5896) , can you help me out here?

It requires to vote a player with the following existing name for it to work, so we can easily vote for banned players or admins that's not part of the game.
Assuming it has been fixed though in some way, but a headsup on how it originally works.


I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.

Sometimes I'm the most active player, believe it or not. Are you sure it's just nothing personal against me?
If that's the case, I'd like to have personal feelings to a minimum and more of the Mafia element instead.

Also this is scummy as fuck, "I think lynching him would be good for town REGARDLESS OF FLIP".


Also, I want to say Calix not bandwagoning titus when she was gifted an option is potentially a

1) calix is town, titus is mafia
2) calix is town, titus is town and open minded (what I am slightly leaning towards)
3) calix is mafia WITH ME, titus is town.

I don't think I am ever mafia with titus based on this opening reaction by her.

Are you attempting to set up a False Dilemma Titus and Calix?


RLVG is a fine player, however in cat and mouse he ONLY posted troll comments and then went MIA for several days. Then I saw one or two more games where I believe he did not post at all? Other players who were in those games can comment on that, and what they think of RLVG's recent posting habits. If he steps his play up this game this is all out the window obviously.

1. I don't only troll comment, I sometimes mix it with the serious though. Look on ThePaladin's & RLVG's Chess Game on that FM game, we were discussing seriously while playing Chess on the FM lol.

2. I went MIA because my computer commited suicide and I had to repair. Was replaced out due to no replying to the Host, I told them what happened and asked if there's a chance to replace in again on that same slot if something happened.

3. I'm a god damn European! I'm not going to be deep active with particular players.


THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THIS GAME WHO KNOWS MY ALIGNMENT IS THE MAFIA. Whether it is 3+me, or 4 people who know each other, they know my alignment. I think the way NU worded this post was NATURAL, not forced or fabricated and was completely TOWN.

I consider it a logical fallacy of some kind to assume that "the only people in this game who knows my alignment is the Mafia", some players might get a clear read based on what you're doing and how you're doing regardless of their own alignment. Also Town are prone to having both a clear scum and town read.


I am somewhat lenient with this rule, but there is a rule about quote manipulation. It is there so people are not making fake quotes saying someone said something they did not - ment to eliminate malicious quoting techniques, but I DO expect people to clean up their quote tags when they preview their posts.

So please, clean up quotes before making them, especially if you already see that someone misquoted the post you are quoting.

Thanks! It's extremely infuriating to look at lol.


I will say though IF I EVER ROLL NEUTRAL KILLING I WILL JUMP OFF THE FIRST BRIDGE I SEE IN REAL LIFE.

I keep quoting you because you say weird shit like this lol.

That totally werren't an appropriate sentence, just sayin'.


I am the only player who has mentioned anything that is not standard mafia 101.

I am known for making bizarre plays, making my claim questionable even if I am town read. If a player like kovath rng'ed this mechanic than everyone would, and probably should instantly believe him.

Quick was excited for this save, I CANT be the only one who knows something that the rest of town does not. If nobody claims claims it means either they have positive changes, unknown changes, I am a fucked like goats in cabbage town, or one of the sides was too strong so this was done to make it somewhat more balanced (isolated mafia, vs few TPR's) or (Town is strong and has an invest, and I am actually a town)

Am I taking fucking crazy pills?

What the fuck am I reading?

So let's unfuck it a bit, you're claiming to be Setup Power of some kind? Some kind of guy that can manipulate the setup?
And you think you're the only one with this Setup Power?
Which makes it more significant of that if anyone knew your alignment, they're scum?


I would rather say that I am analytical and questioning, but I can see the cautious/paranoid vibe there too. I wouldn't say I am averse to such a characterization. I'd rather be paranoid than give free passes.

That's a good personality, except I don't see enough questions for this claim.


I am having issues determining my alignment. There has been a fair amount of pressure and backing off of me that makes me unsure if I am mafia, and they are backing off of me or if I am town and mafia are distancing/not really yet pouncing on me. If I am town, mafia WILL pressure me, likely for things that do not warrant the level of pressure given.

Only way for you to not be sure of your alignment is if you have the role name of roles that's of two factions and you didn't ask the Host what it belongs to.
They are : Rolestopper, Voyeur, Follower, Motion Detector, Neopolitian.

I doubt you'd slip on something so critical though as to reveal you're a TPR of some kind.


Oh, I'll use this text color so people passively think I'm town since town is green ^^

Then I will use this color to make people passively think of my alignment.


Yea...so only the really bad guys will vote for me. So for sure get them if they do. ^^


Until a random Town decides to vote a Town because they think they're scum. Anyone can vote anyone except themselves.


traitor+amnesiac would mean mafia only has a working team of 2 right now, and I do not see how that would be the case.

AMNESIAC?!

Freudian slip or are you making a stupid slip of trying to gambit a role that's not in the game?


Very true. How should we preemptively plan for this possibility?

My thoughts are as follows: If we lynch from Group 3 (for example) and do not hit scum, it becomes 2-2. That's game lose for us, right? We have to be very careful with where and why we go to a certain group, it seems.

Night actions could lead to Scum being killed or preventing a kill, so even if we mislynch it doesn't necessarily mean we lose based on odds and lynching power.


Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't all of those remaining members be confirmed as town? Because the assignment of players to other groups can only happen when all of the scum in a given group are dead.

Exactly, we confirm players this way. The question is though, is a hidden mechanic going to give the Traitor a free pass if there's one?


SO what do we think the over/under is for RLvg's post count this game?

Dude, I were asleep. Stop trying to purposely paint me as scummy based on my absense. You don't even get a proper read of me if I don't even give you any material that you can cherrypick on.


Also I am going to reiterate this again, You can NOT have a town lean on me. IT IS ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE. The one way it would be possible is if you scum read certain people and think they are against me, thus making me town barring any distancing/bussing. However, your post mentioned that you do not suspect anyone too heavily yet. I do not know my alignment, and we have already agreed that If I am lying, I am only lying as MAFIA!!

True, there can't be a town lean and it's impossible, because by default this whole game you're scummy lol.
+1 points to Duck for being correct. I don't townlean him.


You might be right about me being mafia, and in the two mafia group. I actually really like this comment as it seems to be a read not easily thought of and outside of the box. The only downside is that would mean I hate my alignment, and that I am stuck with either a mod player or spruance LOL NO FUCK THAT.

MattZed is the most definitive mod player, so are you saying you could be in a team specifically with Zed and Spruance?

Stop painting yourself as scummy.


Come on, why you aim me so badly? What about your illuminati buddy RLVG v(o.o(<?!?! I didn't make any plan yet

Yeah, we're totally illuminati pals together, together with Sen(pai).
Considered though, an odd statement coming from you. Is it a subtle guess on teams?


NU, RLVG and Kovath aren't terrible, but you're dealing with the best ;) However RLVG has been doing his damnedest to impersonate ika in recent games while Kovath is busy for the next few days so that makes me wonder wherever they'll even turn up to respond to being voted for.

Since no one can understand this... PICTURE

https://gullahmama.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/dead-computer.jpg


14. Kovath- Never lynching him today, he is likely mafia. Yes I mean't what I just typed. He is busy so he will be a tough read for day 1, but town Kovath does not open the way he did this game. I do not want to lynch him because my day 1 read on him sucks, my day 2 read on him is amazing, and I forgot my third reason, but I promise you it sucked.

So your read on him sucks but you don't want to lynch him because he is likely Mafia.
Okay!


Calix, I am on board with frying Yuki as well. It's a joke in RVS screams lynch them from my own personal experience. I'd prefer group 2 but that desire is waning since I can only get Yuki there.

Basically, I am ok with Yuki or ginger flipping.

I don't think I ever have seen you want to lynch based on personal experience.


My lynch order from group 3(1 being want dead the most)

1)rlvg
2)kovath
3)yuki
4)Ginger
5)NU

I think my list might be a huge mistake though. RLVG is top just because of lack of activity, and the next three players in line all have reasonable spots to be pinged out for as scum. I think kovath being able to speak more, hes in the thread, and NU posting will help clear this up.

Hmm actually rlvg might just be a terrible lynch at this point.... fuck me.

So I'm on the top spite having not posted anything at all.
Werren't I a Town role when I was replaced out due to computer suiciding?

I really feel it's more personal.

Then there's Kovath who you don't want to lynch based on a shitty read, but I'm the more shitty read. LUL

[Never Unlucky]

Catching up.

You do use it to manipulate others because if there's one thing you adore, it's being widely town-read. Hence why this move of yours stands out as it does.

Reminds me of Calix.


The main advantages fake-claiming No-Alignment has as scum is to take yourself off the table for the lynch. However, mafia in that position would want their group voted so that the chances of a ML are higher. Also you could have drawn less attention to yourself by simply voting for a different group and thus save yourself that way.

This leads me to a concern. If he himself doesn't know his alignment, do the scum know his alignment (by POE or by seeing his name in the groupscum chat)? If not, that makes it a very good WIFOM play on his part. If his alignment is town, then he is discouraging the scum to push for him as he may be one of theirs.



Also, it cant be random, or if all 4 mafia go in one group, the game just ends lol.
About this setup spec discussion between Duck and JTL -- assuming this is 2-1-1, it makes up for a good NKA. Scum are most likely to kill a player from the group they have 2 members in as they just need to eliminate 2 players from this group rather than 4. Let's keep that in mind.


If group 2 was selected, are you able to vote based on your reads and not personal bias against that player?

I don't want personal bias to shape your reads.

Naturally, yes.

Jealous’s tone gives me a town feel so far. Early T-R on Jealous.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

The setup has nothing at all about a scum N0 chat (unless it's a hidden mechanic in which case... fk me lol). So, this exchange strikes me as strange because Duck first suggests N0 coordination as what would probably be the case if he was mafia and had pre-planned this. Assuming that Duck has fully read through the setup, why wouldn't Duck immediately rule out that possibility for him as mafia in either his original post or after Calix brought it up? Or at least make some comment about it to reinforce his point that he wasn't lying in his claim?

Drunk Duck might be the explanation for this, however, and I don't think he was lying about being drunk lol. The primary no-lynch perspective otherwise I might see for this would be that he is approaching this game as town and thus brushes past it because then he would 'know' that he was town, but I am unsure whether he is able to so strongly believe it. All that said, there will probably be better lynches than Duck today.

Oh I glossed over that line. Like I have told you many times, I do not plan or edit my posts ever.

-Calix questions my negative utility claim
-I think to myself what the fuck does this accomplish as town and mafia.
-Town has no reason to do it from what I see
-Mafia has no reason to do it by themselves as it just makes them stand out and puts a target on their back. This is where I got the idea that it has to be coordinated. I know there is no night 0 chat, but in trying to entertain a world from your guys perspective that is the way I went in my thinking.
-If anything this should show you that I am in fact no alignment because if I am mafia pulling a play, I clearly did not think it through. I guess you could think I was playing dumb and doing one of those "GUYS i THOUGHT THERE WERE ONLY 2 MAFIA, I CANT BE MAFIA", but I think you know me well enough to know that is not really my style.

I really do not think I am even making sense at this point

[RLVG]

-If anything this should show you that I am in fact no alignment because if I am mafia pulling a play, I clearly did not think it through.

Duck, answer me this.

I am a town role who received sufficient coloring, as in I'm a Town Role who's part of the Alignment.
Of course this means I will play out my own win condition over the fact I am a Town.

Where does this bring you? Did you seriously not get the same treatment?
What win condition are you aiming for, considering going for the opposite win condition is against the rules of the game?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I don't know who Shapelog and Alles_Paletti is, but wow, MattZed and Titus in the same group? And Klingoncelt too?

I'm not voting Group 1, just hope that the three of them are not scum lol.

Group 2



I don't think we're ready to guess scum among MattZed, Titus and Klingoncelt.



It requires to vote a player with the following existing name for it to work, so we can easily vote for banned players or admins that's not part of the game.
Assuming it has been fixed though in some way, but a headsup on how it originally works.



Sometimes I'm the most active player, believe it or not. Are you sure it's just nothing personal against me?
If that's the case, I'd like to have personal feelings to a minimum and more of the Mafia element instead.

Also this is scummy as fuck, "I think lynching him would be good for town REGARDLESS OF FLIP".



Are you attempting to set up a False Dilemma Titus and Calix?



1. I don't only troll comment, I sometimes mix it with the serious though. Look on ThePaladin's & RLVG's Chess Game on that FM game, we were discussing seriously while playing Chess on the FM lol.

2. I went MIA because my computer commited suicide and I had to repair. Was replaced out due to no replying to the Host, I told them what happened and asked if there's a chance to replace in again on that same slot if something happened.

3. I'm a god damn European! I'm not going to be deep active with particular players.



I consider it a logical fallacy of some kind to assume that "the only people in this game who knows my alignment is the Mafia", some players might get a clear read based on what you're doing and how you're doing regardless of their own alignment. Also Town are prone to having both a clear scum and town read.



Thanks! It's extremely infuriating to look at lol.



I keep quoting you because you say weird shit like this lol.

That totally werren't an appropriate sentence, just sayin'.



What the fuck am I reading?

So let's unfuck it a bit, you're claiming to be Setup Power of some kind? Some kind of guy that can manipulate the setup?
And you think you're the only one with this Setup Power?
Which makes it more significant of that if anyone knew your alignment, they're scum?



That's a good personality, except I don't see enough questions for this claim.



Only way for you to not be sure of your alignment is if you have the role name of roles that's of two factions and you didn't ask the Host what it belongs to.
They are : Rolestopper, Voyeur, Follower, Motion Detector, Neopolitian.

I doubt you'd slip on something so critical though as to reveal you're a TPR of some kind.



Then I will use this color to make people passively think of my alignment.



Until a random Town decides to vote a Town because they think they're scum. Anyone can vote anyone except themselves.



AMNESIAC?!

Freudian slip or are you making a stupid slip of trying to gambit a role that's not in the game?



Night actions could lead to Scum being killed or preventing a kill, so even if we mislynch it doesn't necessarily mean we lose based on odds and lynching power.



Exactly, we confirm players this way. The question is though, is a hidden mechanic going to give the Traitor a free pass if there's one?



Dude, I were asleep. Stop trying to purposely paint me as scummy based on my absense. You don't even get a proper read of me if I don't even give you any material that you can cherrypick on.



True, there can't be a town lean and it's impossible, because by default this whole game you're scummy lol.
+1 points to Duck for being correct. I don't townlean him.



MattZed is the most definitive mod player, so are you saying you could be in a team specifically with Zed and Spruance?

Stop painting yourself as scummy.



Yeah, we're totally illuminati pals together, together with Sen(pai).
Considered though, an odd statement coming from you. Is it a subtle guess on teams?



Since no one can understand this... PICTURE

https://gullahmama.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/dead-computer.jpg



So your read on him sucks but you don't want to lynch him because he is likely Mafia.
Okay!



I don't think I ever have seen you want to lynch based on personal experience.



So I'm on the top spite having not posted anything at all.
Werren't I a Town role when I was replaced out due to computer suiciding?

I really feel it's more personal.

Then there's Kovath who you don't want to lynch based on a shitty read, but I'm the more shitty read. LUL

First of all, I don't have anything personal against you. I was just concerned you would not be around to contribute. I literally say at the end of the post you are a bad lynch.

And second of all read my first post, because you just read everything from me out of context.

[RLVG]

And second of all read my first post, because you just read everything from me out of context.

Maybe I am, but this is Mafia so subliminal messages is a thing, breadcrumbing and all that jazz.
You're saying I read incorrectly?

[Yukitaka Oni]

I don't know who Shapelog and Alles_Paletti is, but wow, MattZed and Titus in the same group? And Klingoncelt too?

I'm not voting Group 1, just hope that the three of them are not scum lol.

Group 2



I don't think we're ready to guess scum among MattZed, Titus and Klingoncelt.



It requires to vote a player with the following existing name for it to work, so we can easily vote for banned players or admins that's not part of the game.
Assuming it has been fixed though in some way, but a headsup on how it originally works.



Sometimes I'm the most active player, believe it or not. Are you sure it's just nothing personal against me?
If that's the case, I'd like to have personal feelings to a minimum and more of the Mafia element instead.

Also this is scummy as fuck, "I think lynching him would be good for town REGARDLESS OF FLIP".



Are you attempting to set up a False Dilemma Titus and Calix?



1. I don't only troll comment, I sometimes mix it with the serious though. Look on ThePaladin's & RLVG's Chess Game on that FM game, we were discussing seriously while playing Chess on the FM lol.

2. I went MIA because my computer commited suicide and I had to repair. Was replaced out due to no replying to the Host, I told them what happened and asked if there's a chance to replace in again on that same slot if something happened.

3. I'm a god damn European! I'm not going to be deep active with particular players.



I consider it a logical fallacy of some kind to assume that "the only people in this game who knows my alignment is the Mafia", some players might get a clear read based on what you're doing and how you're doing regardless of their own alignment. Also Town are prone to having both a clear scum and town read.



Thanks! It's extremely infuriating to look at lol.



I keep quoting you because you say weird shit like this lol.

That totally werren't an appropriate sentence, just sayin'.



What the fuck am I reading?

So let's unfuck it a bit, you're claiming to be Setup Power of some kind? Some kind of guy that can manipulate the setup?
And you think you're the only one with this Setup Power?
Which makes it more significant of that if anyone knew your alignment, they're scum?



That's a good personality, except I don't see enough questions for this claim.



Only way for you to not be sure of your alignment is if you have the role name of roles that's of two factions and you didn't ask the Host what it belongs to.
They are : Rolestopper, Voyeur, Follower, Motion Detector, Neopolitian.

I doubt you'd slip on something so critical though as to reveal you're a TPR of some kind.



Then I will use this color to make people passively think of my alignment.



Until a random Town decides to vote a Town because they think they're scum. Anyone can vote anyone except themselves.



AMNESIAC?!

Freudian slip or are you making a stupid slip of trying to gambit a role that's not in the game?



Night actions could lead to Scum being killed or preventing a kill, so even if we mislynch it doesn't necessarily mean we lose based on odds and lynching power.



Exactly, we confirm players this way. The question is though, is a hidden mechanic going to give the Traitor a free pass if there's one?



Dude, I were asleep. Stop trying to purposely paint me as scummy based on my absense. You don't even get a proper read of me if I don't even give you any material that you can cherrypick on.



True, there can't be a town lean and it's impossible, because by default this whole game you're scummy lol.
+1 points to Duck for being correct. I don't townlean him.



MattZed is the most definitive mod player, so are you saying you could be in a team specifically with Zed and Spruance?

Stop painting yourself as scummy.



Yeah, we're totally illuminati pals together, together with Sen(pai).
Considered though, an odd statement coming from you. Is it a subtle guess on teams?



Since no one can understand this... PICTURE

https://gullahmama.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/dead-computer.jpg



So your read on him sucks but you don't want to lynch him because he is likely Mafia.
Okay!



I don't think I ever have seen you want to lynch based on personal experience.



So I'm on the top spite having not posted anything at all.
Werren't I a Town role when I was replaced out due to computer suiciding?

I really feel it's more personal.

Then there's Kovath who you don't want to lynch based on a shitty read, but I'm the more shitty read. LUL
That a lot of reading on leaveduck..

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Maybe I am, but this is Mafia so subliminal messages is a thing, breadcrumbing and all that jazz.
You're saying I read incorrectly?

I do not have an alignment. I am not TOWN or MAFIA.

[RLVG]

MRW multiple players quote my long, full post.

http://i.imgur.com/AybMHlj.gif

You're flooding the page this way, boiz.

[RLVG]

I do not have an alignment. I am not TOWN or MAFIA.

That's contradictory to what I got and I see nothing on the setup that whos this as a possibility.
Maybe I know a hidden mechanic myself, but it certainly ain't this.

Not to mention that the host explicitly put a rule to play out your win condition, not knowing yours just makes the rule invalid.
You're supposed to know your win condition.


YOU ARE TO PLAY TO YOUR WIN CONDITION. IF I THINK YOU ARE NOT AND I WARN YOU AND YOU DO IT ANYWAYS, I WILL EXPLAIN IN DETAIL TO THE MODS WHAT YOU HAVE DONE AND YOU WILL BE SUBJECTED TO PUNISHMENT IF THE MODS AGREE WITH ME

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

That's contradictory to what I got and I see nothing on the setup that whos this as a possibility.
Maybe I know a hidden mechanic myself, but it certainly ain't this.

Not to mention that the host explicitly put a rule to play out your win condition, not knowing yours just makes the rule invalid.
You're supposed to know your win condition.

Well you are going to have to accept that I do not have an alignment until the end of night 1, or try to get the town to lynch me. We can talk post game whether or not "forgetting" my alignment invalidates a rule. If you do not believe me, and read me mafia then you should be able to easily construct a case against me of why I am mafia. I will love watching you try to find something in my play that indicates I am mafia when I can't possibly know if I am.

[RLVG]

Well you are going to have to accept that I do not have an alignment until the end of night 1, or try to get the town to lynch me. We can talk post game whether or not "forgetting" my alignment invalidates a rule. If you do not believe me, and read me mafia then you should be able to easily construct a case against me of why I am mafia. I will love watching you try to find something in my play that indicates I am mafia when I can't possibly know if I am.

Making yourself a low-hanging fruit while negetating reads by stating you don't know your alignment is a way to avoid a lynch prematurely, which itself is a scummy move, only possible as the setup says that there's a hidden setup.

Unfortunately, I may have caught you in a string of gambits that contradict the setup, if you don't know your own alignment Day 1 when there's a possibility of dying by Lynch during Day 1, you can essentially go against your own win condition and you don't even know it. The setup promotes that everyone should know their own alignment by rolecard or otherwise the general win condition so they don't contradict a rule on the setup.

Because this claim is unbelieveable, I may have to request you to share what you received from the host (don't quote it).

[Calix]

I don't know who Shapelog and Alles_Paletti is, but wow, MattZed and Titus in the same group? And Klingoncelt too?

I'm not voting Group 1, just hope that the three of them are not scum lol. I don't think we're ready to guess scum among MattZed, Titus and Klingoncelt.

You overestimate their ability to play the exact same way as all alignments. I'm also not in the business of giving Day 1 passes to 'experienced' players.

It's been a while since I've played with you so I forget the finer details of your meta, exactly. However I wasn't a fan of this post. You get way too touchy over Duck's comments about wanting to policy-lynch you. (which he can't follow through on his own, thus meaning that you look like you're overreacting to the suggestion)

You're also misjudging his posts a lot.


Also this is scummy as fuck, "I think lynching him would be good for town REGARDLESS OF FLIP".

Dude, I were asleep. Stop trying to purposely paint me as scummy based on my absense. You don't even get a proper read of me if I don't even give you any material that you can cherrypick on.

...

MattZed is the most definitive mod player, so are you saying you could be in a team specifically with Zed and Spruance?

Stop painting yourself as scummy.


Night actions could lead to Scum being killed or preventing a kill, so even if we mislynch it doesn't necessarily mean we lose based on odds and lynching power.

Exactly, we confirm players this way. The question is though, is a hidden mechanic going to give the Traitor a free pass if there's one?

This is out of order but I also fucking hate these posts. You are low-key trying to justify town fucking up in advance. There is literally no town motivation to trying to make town MORE complacent in this setup when we have hidden mechanics and the potential to lose N1.

Second post just reeks of someone trying to keep his options open in the case that townies DO get confirmed.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Making yourself a low-hanging fruit while negetating reads by stating you don't know your alignment is a way to avoid a lynch prematurely, which itself is a scummy move, only possible as the setup says that there's a hidden setup.

Unfortunately, I may have caught you in a string of gambits that contradict the setup, if you don't know your own alignment Day 1 when there's a possibility of dying by Lynch during Day 1, you can essentially go against your own win condition and you don't even know it. The setup promotes that everyone should know their own alignment by rolecard or otherwise the general win condition so they don't contradict a rule on the setup.

Because this claim is unbelieveable, I may have to request you to share what you received from the host (don't quote it).

.... I can't tell if you are trolling or not at this point. If you do not go back and reread my first post (you quoted part of it, it is on page 2) then I can't discuss anything with you. I have literally already done this.

Why would I make myself low hanging fruit to avoid lynch? I have never been miss lynched, and with my group, I would ALWAYS be able to out talk a lynch over the other group members. Literally every comment you made on your long iso about me is a misrep or false. Do I really have to get out of bed and put effort into this right now zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[RLVG]

I have a friend visiting me and I'll be going to cinema soon, so I won't be around.

Back later!

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You overestimate their ability to play the exact same way as all alignments. I'm also not in the business of giving Day 1 passes to 'experienced' players.

It's been a while since I've played with you so I forget the finer details of your meta, exactly. However I wasn't a fan of this post. You get way too touchy over Duck's comments about wanting to policy-lynch you. (which he can't follow through on his own, thus meaning that you look like you're overreacting to the suggestion)

You're also misjudging his posts a lot.







This is out of order but I also fucking hate these posts. You are low-key trying to justify town fucking up in advance. There is literally no town motivation to trying to make town MORE complacent in this setup when we have hidden mechanics and the potential to lose N1.

Second post just reeks of someone trying to keep his options open in the case that townies DO get confirmed.

Why have you been so defendy of me this game? While RLVG's post certainly was bad, you have been consistently pro-duck this game. Even if you believe me, I still COULD be mafia.

[Calix]

Why have you been so defendy of me this game? While RLVG's post certainly was bad, you have been consistently pro-duck this game. Even if you believe me, I still COULD be mafia.

Calling out a shitty post =/= a defense of you. It was an attack on RLVG's shitty post and would have been done regardless of who he was talking to. Of course he disappears the moment I get on the thread -_-

I don't buy his logic about the win conditions. Players cannot attempt to game-throw if they do not know what their win condition is.

The fact that RLVG/ Yuki (two suspicious players in Group 3) are both voting for Group 2 for spurious reasons makes me skeptical of the odds of lynching correctly if Group 2 is chosen.

[Never Unlucky]

Playing in a ‘marathon’ game and a 15 player game at the same time is a bad idea. zzz


I want to lynch in two imo. I don't like the fact there's so much diversion from 2, when two arguably has easier to sort players (less skilled).

You'd prefer lynching from the easier to sort players than from the easier to read?


I buy Duck as the hidden mechanic referenced in the setup. I think he's honest there.

I, too, think he's honest. In that sense, I wouldn't support lynching today to flip the coin and would rather wait until Day 2 to see how his play style change with an alignment's win-con in mind.

You're just trying to trick me--you're not even an alignment, you're believable though. The host did say there were special hidden snowflake mechanics and I can totally buy into you being a traitor.
I...I mean a temporary amnesiac >~< sorry...I don't know why I said that ^^;


Throws shade while keeping a town tone.

Now that I think about it, if Group 3 is in fact the 2 scum group and they blitzed the vote, it would be a strong strategy. The empirical chances of lynching town are 3/5, therefore the chance of scum winning D1/N1 is hypothetically around 60%. I will wait for counter-arguments and etc. before casting my vote, but it seems to me this G3 bandwagon came on too easily and therefore should be reversed.
His reasoning and cautiousness is another thing I like about him. They seem town-motivated for me.
Considering removing my vote from my group in that regard.

Not liking GingerApe so far. The dude states the obvious and sheeps Calix’s and Jealous’s thoughts.

someone said soft!
Oh. I totally change my mind from last night. I've given it some thought and the setup pretty much 100% is a 2/1/1 mafia setup right? If there were 0 mafia in a group then they would automatically get shuffled into a new group? Correct me if I'm wrong.

This game seems like it will be only a few days long if I'm thinking correctly.

So I'll go through all the day/night one options that I'm thinking can happen:

Ok so we pick a group with one mafia and lynch him (best ^^)
That also means mafia night actions wont matter a ton. But the group will be reshuffled...giving us a group with 2 mafia and a group with one...but...we get 4 absolute trusted townmembers that we can believe in.
As well as a larger majority vote in each group.

So we pick a group with 2 mafia and lynch a mafia (second best case scenario in my opinion)
That means mafia night actions aren't an immediate threat, and our investigative roles have a longer time to find these guys. It also means there's confirmed only one mafia in each group so it'll be harder for them to get a majority.


^^

Oh...now if we pick a group with 1 mafia and lynch a town....
Well, mafia will probably try to take out a member of town at night from their 2 person group to put pressure on us or they will win by the next morning. However it gives us a good 50% shot of hitting a mafia member since it will be 2/2 tomorrow.
i feel like this is pretty much the only course of action mafia will take if they want to win quickly.

If we pick a group with 2 mafia and lynch a town~
Oh. That's game over by the morning ~<3

Feels like a person who’s IIOA. Null-read.


Decent post, I agree with more or less everything stated here. The 2/1/1 being confirmed was discussed before but restating it is no crime. Not sure I like your stating openly what mafia "should" do in the case of "1 mafia group and lynch town,' partially because I feel there is some potential for misdirection and that potential rises when town makes that evident. Either way, I am glad I didn't tunnel on you and you've posted something more-or-less constructive in terms of breakdown.

What makes you view Gingerape's post as constructive?

[Calix]

Playing in a ‘marathon’ game and a 15 player game at the same time is a bad idea. zzz

Seconded :(


Throws shade while keeping a town tone.


Not liking GingerApe so far. The dude states the obvious and sheeps Calix’s and Jealous’s thoughts.

Feels like a person who’s IIOA. Null-read.

This read progression confuses me. You claim he's throwing shade (although in a 'townie' way), then criticise him for sheeping/ stating the obvious...then you claim he uses IIOA (typically a scum tell)...and you concluded null...?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Calling out a shitty post =/= a defense of you. It was an attack on RLVG's shitty post and would have been done regardless of who he was talking to. Of course he disappears the moment I get on the thread -_-

I don't buy his logic about the win conditions. Players cannot attempt to game-throw if they do not know what their win condition is.

The fact that RLVG/ Yuki (two suspicious players in Group 3) are both voting for Group 2 for spurious reasons makes me skeptical of the odds of lynching correctly if Group 2 is chosen.

Yeah I was finally about to pass out, and then I read that contrived bullshit, and he just bounces without discussing it.... Quick literally specifically asked me about the gamethrowing rule in the signup thread, and this guy comes in here and says I have to be playing against my win condition because I do not know my own role? I think the host is aware of his fucking mechanics and made sure they would not breach his own rules....

Why are you skeptical about our odds in group 2 though? If I am in your POV and know I(calix) am town, then the only way our odds would be bad is IF the read on TL is wrong, and he is in fact mafia. RLVG would be pushing me so if he is mafia, we will assume I am town, you know you are town, I believe TL is town, and that would leave us with a 50/50.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Calling out a shitty post =/= a defense of you. It was an attack on RLVG's shitty post and would have been done regardless of who he was talking to. Of course he disappears the moment I get on the thread -_-

I don't buy his logic about the win conditions. Players cannot attempt to game-throw if they do not know what their win condition is.

The fact that RLVG/ Yuki (two suspicious players in Group 3) are both voting for Group 2 for spurious reasons makes me skeptical of the odds of lynching correctly if Group 2 is chosen.
Ok, I decided group 2 not because of you Calix, i pick 3 in group
- except Calix and plzduck
-> i pick the rest due to :ika: problem.
That's my reason for now

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Ok, I decided group 2 not because of you Calix, i pick 3 in group
- except Calix and plzduck
-> i pick the rest due to :ika: problem.
That's my reason for now

If Calix and I are both town, do you think we would have posted any less if we were mafia? This setup does not have the room for error to allow a lynch on someone who is lurking. I realize that I am partially advocating a group 2 lynch while criticizing you for it, but it seems you purely only want to lynch within lurkers, and not because of any town read on the other players.

[Never Unlucky]

Almost up-to-date.

In a normal game I would lynch ginger, but with the potential to have 0 miss lynches, are you more confident that they are mafia or that they could be mafia and will give a lot of information from their flip?

Yuki is more of a day 2 player from my one game experience, but I am willing to entertain this lynch.

My lynch order from group 3(1 being want dead the most)

1)rlvg
2)kovath
3)yuki
4)Ginger
5)NU

I think my list might be a huge mistake though. RLVG is top just because of lack of activity, and the next three players in line all have reasonable spots to be pinged out for as scum. I think kovath being able to speak more, hes in the thread, and NU posting will help clear this up.

Hmm actually rlvg might just be a terrible lynch at this point.... fuck me.

1) Lynching someone simply for being inactive when Quick has at least 2 replacements at his disposal is your #1? Why is he your top target?
If you want to lynch people based on their inactivity, why not vote for Group 2 [Spruance and or Slayer] or Group 1 [MZ, Alles_Palleti, Klingofthecelts]?

2) I know that you've said that you can 180 people you previously town-read, but I don't understand why Kovath is your #2 when you clearly stated that you weren't lynching him today because your D2 reads on him were better. He didn't post since you made your reads list either. Care to explain why he's #2?

He's also sitting in a similar spot as RLVG as he's only posted once. Why is RLVG more important of a lynch to you?

3 and 4) Other than Gingerape's town tone, I haven't noticed anything AI in their posts. I wouldn't (Vocally) support their lynch today.

I actually am considering Group 2 to be a better group to lynch from since I town-read Jealous, leantown Calix and have faith in DUCK's claim. It basically leaves me with two policy lynch options. (In contrast, my group has 2 PL targets and 3 players who aren't strongly read by anyone.)


Calix, I am on board with frying Yuki as well. It's a joke in RVS screams lynch them from my own personal experience. I'd prefer group 2 but that desire is waning since I can only get Yuki there.

Basically, I am ok with Yuki or ginger flipping.

Why is that?

[Yukitaka Oni]

If Calix and I are both town, do you think we would have posted any less if we were mafia? This setup does not have the room for error to allow a lynch on someone who is lurking. I realize that I am partially advocating a group 2 lynch while criticizing you for it, but it seems you purely only want to lynch within lurkers, and not because of any town read on the other players.
No, i want a little bit push to check if they're active or not.

[Yukitaka Oni]

!
........it's me or....my group....is suspicious.....the most....?

[Yukitaka Oni]

Hm.....maybe not

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Almost up-to-date.


1) Lynching someone simply for being inactive when Quick has at least 2 replacements at his disposal is your #1? Why is he your top target?
If you want to lynch people based on their inactivity, why not vote for Group 2 [Spruance and or Slayer] or Group 1 [MZ, Alles_Palleti, Klingofthecelts]?

2) I know that you've said that you can 180 people you previously town-read, but I don't understand why Kovath is your #2 when you clearly stated that you weren't lynching him today because your D2 reads on him were better. He didn't post since you made your reads list either. Care to explain why he's #2?

He's also sitting in a similar spot as RLVG as he's only posted once. Why is RLVG more important of a lynch to you?

3 and 4) Other than Gingerape's town tone, I haven't noticed anything AI in their posts. I wouldn't (Vocally) support their lynch today.

I actually am considering Group 2 to be a better group to lynch from since I town-read Jealous, leantown Calix and have faith in DUCK's claim. It basically leaves me with two policy lynch options. (In contrast, my group has 2 PL targets and 3 players who aren't strongly read by anyone.)



Why is that?

I don't mean this is a negative way although it is going to come across so. Are my posts not making sense? I feel like multiple people have asked questions that the very post they are quoting answers. It is entirely likely and probable that I am too out of it and am not being very crisp in my wording, so if so my bad. I do not care if people need to repeat myself, but I want to know if I am hallucinating or others just overlooked something.

Anywhoooooooo back to your questions

1) I dont plan or edit posts. I type as I think and unless its a typo I dont really backspace. I was thinking about my lynch order for that group and when I started I wanted to lynch rlvg ( purely off a now proven false assumption that he would not be posting). As I thought about each player in the group, i reevaluated and realized that there are a lot of scummy people in group 3, and if there are several scummy people, I should NOT be policy lynching RLVG.

Keep in mind I have also been advocating the whole time about the merits of voting group 2. You post the same conclusion about a potential 50/50 in slayer/spruance (although it might turn out not to be this simple).

2)Okay so this is one of those things where I am a special snowflake and I have my own duck way of doing things. I scum read Kovath, but my day 1 reads are wrong on him. This means he very likely could be town. I think his play is scummy, but I am more confident in my ability to accurately read him on day 2 that I think there are better lynches on people I am better able to read on day 1. He is #2 because his question and bounce style reminded me of his play in IC and several other games. He tends to ask more hollow and less thought provoking questions as non town roles. He is at a tournament so I don't want to make an error in reading him as others have in previous games from him not being able to respond.

In short I think he is and could be scum, but my day 1 reads on him are notoriously bad, and he has been out of town. Like you said he has a similar post count to rlvg. The difference for me is I thought rlvg had a recent history of no showing, but he had computer issues I did not know about. I mentioned others knew better and should chime in, I guess nobody really felt like clarifying for me.

3) I probably agree with you here? I think their next several posts will shift them from the middle for me. Probably a great lynch for information, bad lynch to risk a MYLO.

4) I mentioned this several times, and it is starting to feel like one of those too good to be true type scenarios. Calix never buddies me this hard, the other guy is either town or a really strong day 1 mafia play, who the fuck knows what I am, and we have two MIA. If B turns out to be a double mafia group, we could potentially just hit runner runner...

I don't know what to think. Every fucking word is a blur, nobody even mentions group 1, like what the fuck do we do with that group.

[Never Unlucky]

Seconded :(

:/




This read progression confuses me. You claim he's throwing shade (although in a 'townie' way), then criticise him for sheeping/ stating the obvious...then you claim he uses IIOA (typically a scum tell)...and you concluded null...?

Sheeping and stating the obvious = NAI.

He's thrown shade on Duck by mentioning the possibility of him being the traitor (which is a possibility), but he didn't push the idea and he kept his tone. It's the opposite of what Eggy and MattZed did in IC to you: they mentioned the possibility of you being scum and killing Mesk who was defending you for town cred and pushed the idea to discredit you. Ginger isn't doing this.

Yes, IIOA is a scum-tell just like town tone is a town-tell. I don't feel like any of these points are over-shadowing the other atm (especially after mislynching SP in BN who showed many scum-tells while still having a town tone), so I conclude null.

[Never Unlucky]

I don't mean this is a negative way although it is going to come across so. Are my posts not making sense? I feel like multiple people have asked questions that the very post they are quoting answers. It is entirely likely and probable that I am too out of it and am not being very crisp in my wording, so if so my bad. I do not care if people need to repeat myself, but I want to know if I am hallucinating or others just overlooked something.

It's not that your posts don't make sense, it's more that you contradict yourself (sometimes in the same post, lol) and flip-flop your opinions quickly. This is something my 'good buddy' Eggy does a lot as scum, so I am intrigued to know what goes through your head when you make said posts. It seems to be NAI for you though, so I'll just have to get used to it.


Anywhoooooooo back to your questions

1) I dont plan or edit posts. I type as I think and unless its a typo I dont really backspace. I was thinking about my lynch order for that group and when I started I wanted to lynch rlvg ( purely off a now proven false assumption that he would not be posting). As I thought about each player in the group, i reevaluated and realized that there are a lot of scummy people in group 3, and if there are several scummy people, I should NOT be policy lynching RLVG.

Keep in mind I have also been advocating the whole time about the merits of voting group 2. You post the same conclusion about a potential 50/50 in slayer/spruance (although it might turn out not to be this simple).
What would your Group 3 lynch priority be atm then?


2)Okay so this is one of those things where I am a special snowflake and I have my own duck way of doing things. I scum read Kovath, but my day 1 reads are wrong on him. This means he very likely could be town. I think his play is scummy, but I am more confident in my ability to accurately read him on day 2 that I think there are better lynches on people I am better able to read on day 1. He is #2 because his question and bounce style reminded me of his play in IC and several other games. He tends to ask more hollow and less thought provoking questions as non town roles. He is at a tournament so I don't want to make an error in reading him as others have in previous games from him not being able to respond.

In short I think he is and could be scum, but my day 1 reads on him are notoriously bad, and he has been out of town. Like you said he has a similar post count to rlvg. The difference for me is I thought rlvg had a recent history of no showing, but he had computer issues I did not know about. I mentioned others knew better and should chime in, I guess nobody really felt like clarifying for me.


3) I probably agree with you here? I think their next several posts will shift them from the middle for me. Probably a great lynch for information, bad lynch to risk a MYLO.
"A great lynch for information" -- How?

Neither Yuki nor Gingerape has had any serious interaction with anyone, so I don't see what information their flip would give. The only information they'd give is that Kovath, RLVG, [The one of them who hasn't been lynched], and I mechanically have more chance of flipping scum.


4) I mentioned this several times, and it is starting to feel like one of those too good to be true type scenarios. Calix never buddies me this hard, the other guy is either town or a really strong day 1 mafia play, who the fuck knows what I am, and we have two MIA. If B turns out to be a double mafia group, we could potentially just hit runner runner...

From an outside Calix - Duck interaction POV, I did not feel like she was buddying you. What makes you feel that way?


I think Jealous is a town. Fuck his typing style though.


I don't know what to think. Every fucking word is a blur, nobody even mentions group 1, like what the fuck do we do with that group.

Because there's nothing to be said about group 1. 3 inactive players asking to be PLed, Titus (null for me), and Shapelog being the scummiest with his "Oh, I didn't know there was X mafia" comment doesn't propose an educated lynch.

[Calix]

I actually am considering Group 2 to be a better group to lynch from since I town-read Jealous, leantown Calix and have faith in DUCK's claim. It basically leaves me with two policy lynch options. (In contrast, my group has 2 PL targets and 3 players who aren't strongly read by anyone.)

Why is the idea of a policy lynch option being entertained?


1) I dont plan or edit posts. I type as I think and unless its a typo I dont really backspace. I was thinking about my lynch order for that group and when I started I wanted to lynch rlvg ( purely off a now proven false assumption that he would not be posting). As I thought about each player in the group, i reevaluated and realized that there are a lot of scummy people in group 3, and if there are several scummy people, I should NOT be policy lynching RLVG.

Your logic is flawed. Scummy doesn't necessitate them being scum, so the switch to "RLVG is likely town" (or like an Innocent Child or something like that - it was in a different post so going off memory here) does not make sense.

I also don't see why you'd want to lynch a non-poster of all targets.


4) I mentioned this several times, and it is starting to feel like one of those too good to be true type scenarios. Calix never buddies me this hard, the other guy is either town or a really strong day 1 mafia play, who the fuck knows what I am, and we have two MIA. If B turns out to be a double mafia group, we could potentially just hit runner runner...

I don't know what to think. Every fucking word is a blur, nobody even mentions group 1, like what the fuck do we do with that group.

Firstly, I haven't been 'buddying' with you. Going from "this claim doesn't make much sense for mafia but could be a gambit" to "he's probably legit because of XYZ in his reads list" =/= buddying. Calling out RLVG's poor logic without sheeping your reasoning also doesn't qualify.

We also haven't played enough games together for you to go "Calix never does X this much"


:/

Sheeping and stating the obvious = NAI.

He's thrown shade on Duck by mentioning the possibility of him being the traitor (which is a possibility), but he didn't push the idea and he kept his tone. It's the opposite of what Eggy and MattZed did in IC to you: they mentioned the possibility of you being scum and killing Mesk who was defending you for town cred and pushed the idea to discredit you. Ginger isn't doing this.

Yes, IIOA is a scum-tell just like town tone is a town-tell. I don't feel like any of these points are over-shadowing the other atm (especially after mislynching SP in BN who showed many scum-tells while still having a town tone), so I conclude null.

I accept this explanation. I like the comparison in the second paragraph in particular.

[Yukitaka Oni]

So both town and scum try to pick group in the name of scum-hunting.
That mean one of the player who's trying to scum-hunting right now is a Mafia. But....that only can reduce a little bit risk so far....

[Yukitaka Oni]

Group 2 is not a good pick with so many afk/lurker so far. Beside nobody give a damn about them anyway...

[Never Unlucky]

Why is the idea of a policy lynch option being entertained?

Players who've posted:
Titus - null
Shapelog - null-leaning-scum
Calix - Lean-town
Jealous - Town
Duck - I trust his claim and would like to keep him at least until D2 to see how his role and play evolve.
Yuki - Null
Ginger - Null
Kovath - Null
RLVG - Null

This set-up obliges lynches to happen everyday. My mentor told me that PLs are forseeable when you don't have a strong scum-read on anyone, and this is the situation I'm in right now.

What idea do you entertain?

[Yukitaka Oni]

Players who've posted:
Titus - null
Shapelog - null-leaning-scum
Calix - Lean-town
Jealous - Town
Duck - I trust his claim and would like to keep him at least until D2 to see how his role and play evolve.
Yuki - Null
Ginger - Null
Kovath - Null
RLVG - Null

This set-up obliges lynches to happen everyday. My mentor told me that PLs are forseeable when you don't have a strong scum-read on anyone, and this is the situation I'm in right now.

What idea do you entertain?
Nah, I accept being called a null this time, my previous reason to vote group 2 and my plan was ruined by afk/lurkers. Going to change my plan