Setup Discussion for Starter Game.

[SuperJack]

Hello.

Once again we are starting a new starter game. And I am interested with feedback from the last game. (Both Players, Mentors and Viewers)
Last game used this Matrix6 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/36145-S-FM-Matrix6-(Beginners-Game)) which some players, for their first game, did not fully grasp how it worked. (This may be related to how well it was explained)
The general summery of how the starter game should be build around is:
- 7 to 9 players
- Simple Power roles
- Mostly Vanilla
- Normal Setup

If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso

[DarknessB]

Setup looks good to me. Would be helpful to go over some other rule considerations as well:


Last Wills -- Presumably allowed.
Posting Requirements -- 5 per day / host's discretion? I would recommend host's discretion to avoid players being able to remain in the game on a technicality even if they are not really participating.
Reserves -- We should have at least a couple of reserves lined up in case players choose to / need to be replaced.
In-Game Vets -- In the interest of shaking it up and spurring conversation, I would be in favor of say 2 more experienced players in this game, but not super experienced.
Mentors -- Can't hurt to allow the new players to have a mentor with whom they can chat with during the game realtime. Sort of like last time, except maybe emphasize that they can use the mentors as much as possible (telling the mentors this too).
Day / Night Cycles -- 48/24?

[Unknown1234]

Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.

[DarknessB]

My thoughts in blue below:


Well, being able to speak from the previous game, I liked the aspect of not knowing what town roles were in the game.
Last time around, a number of players were confused by the matrix. Given this is the first game for many players, the risk of confusing them seems higher than anything else. When I was a mafioso, it was perhaps easier to be able to identify which set up we were in knowing there was no consort, but all roles other then consort were possible. Apart from the deception, I think there were potential roles that may have been a problem (such as Jailor) because normally we intend to have lynching games.

how would the setup change if it was 7 players? As stated it is 7-9 but your setup is for 9 and would change if not 9.
7 is too small IMO -- you might very well be looking at 5-2 to start, which would go to 4-2 with a mislynch, 3-2 with a night kill. Don't want a very possible Day 2 LYLO situation for newcomers.

Interesting to look at maybe more unique roles in game? Don't know if people would get bored as a citizen, I wasn't a citizen so can't say for sure.
Again, it's a beginner's game so you'd rather keep it simple and focus on fundamentals of teaching players to scumhunt, etc. We don't want blingy roles in the game because that makes the game more about the TPRs and less about scumhunting. Better players win and lose based on their reads vs. based on night action madness.

[Cryptonic]

5v2 is a fine size for a small game. best for basic imo, 5v2, 72 hr days

[Yukitaka Oni]

I'm a citizen, i know the feel v(o.o(<

[Yukitaka Oni]

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

[DarknessB]

I would request DarknessB and another veteran player in the game v(o.o(< (no calix plz, too op for news)

The initial thought had been players with a little bit of experience, but who could benefit from some additional game time -- such as some of our recent newcomers -- Unknown, Mesk, Eggy or some medium experience players who want to practice a little more -- Gyrlander, Funce, AIVION, Mikecall, Secondpassing, etc.

[Cryptonic]

If no other option is reach it will basically be:
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Consort
Mafioso

Town would steamroll this

[DarknessB]

Town would steamroll this

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

[SuperJack]

Town would steamroll this

56.8% (44 games) are a town win. (Stealing information from the web)

[SuperJack]

The idea of this thread was if people have any other suggestions for the setup.

And if they dont, I'll stick with that basic one.

[Cryptonic]

56.8% (44 games) are a town win. (Stealing information from the web)

Link me, please.
Every one i've seen is 51:49 for 5v2 (2 less Citizens)

[Cryptonic]

See, look:

https://epicmafia.com/setup/693

[secondpassing]

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

[SuperJack]

Link me, please.
Every one i've seen is 51:49 for 5v2 (2 less Citizens)

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

Stolen from Line 2.

Oh, and I'm not argueing that 7 players is bad. I'm just saying that 7v2 isnt town steamroll.

[DarknessB]

I think some tips to playing the role should be included in the rolecard. Maybe like outline the usual goals of a citizen or some simple ways to decieve as mafia.

Absolutely not -- strategy is extremely subjective and we should not be endorsing approaches on the role card of all places. We have a Wiki and other sections for practice pointers. Players also have the option of a mentor to get advice on how to play a role. The host should not be attempting to push people into strategies in the game instructions.

[Cryptonic]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Matrix6

Stolen from Line 2.

Oh, and I'm not argueing that 7 players is bad. I'm just saying that 7v2 isnt town steamroll.

57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread

[DarknessB]

57% is a huge advantage, though. 14% spread

Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.

[Cryptonic]

Doesn't this assume mostly seasoned players though? Newcomers are not good at scumhunting for the most part. The last beginner's game showed that very clearly. I feel like it's a lot easier to play scum in a game of players who don't really know how to tease out scumreads.

But newcomers are also not skilled at playing scum, making scum reads easier. I personally think it evens out; def doesn't close a 14 pt spread. but yes, maybe a 5v2 would be hard for town. maybe 6v2 would be decent to try.

[Yukitaka Oni]

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

[SuperJack]

But newcomers are also not skilled at playing scum, making scum reads easier. I personally think it evens out; def doesn't close a 14 pt spread. but yes, maybe a 5v2 would be hard for town. maybe 6v2 would be decent to try.

Perhaps. Yes, with Doc he game may not end on night 2.

[Unknown1234]

To be fair, the Town lost the last beginner's game, which was not identical but very similar.

Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.

Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.

[DarknessB]

/obverse newbie game v(o.o(<
Gimme dead chat so i can read too. I wanna watch a game v)o.o)-)>

Speaking of which, SuperJack, please have a dead chat / observer's chat QT for this game. Don't think there was one last time.

[Cryptonic]

Not sure this comparison is fair, the detective checked a citizen but couldn't know for sure if he was evil or not with two mafioso's and only one performs the night kill.

Sheriff would be overpowered to a point where if Doctor finds sheriff and Doctor stays hidden, the sheriff could keep confirming people's roles. Last game the doctor/detective died n1/n2 respectively.

Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was

[Unknown1234]

Consort could find the Sheriff, too. Creates a confirmed town, but ties up Doc. It's a fair trade imo
Unless you're talking about the last setup, IDR what the last setup was

Last save was swapping detective and sheriff.
Swapping Mafioso instead of consort as well.

I guess that makes sense, just depends how long sheriff stays hidden and who he checks.

[MattZed]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

[SuperJack]

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback

[MattZed]

Only if the bus driver and doctor don't leave/ get feedback
I'd agree.

Also BD can't bus self.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Mafia have beguiler? Maybe?

[Unknown1234]

Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over

[MattZed]

The only problem would be is if game ends in one phase (Mafioso Lynched day 1, the other one run over night 1) just trying to think that it should be more scum reading others rather then trying to run them over
I'm proposing BD as an alternative to Sheriffs or other investigative precisely because it encourages reading people and trying to figure out who to try to run over.

If game ends N1, it's because the town played very well.

[DarknessB]

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.

[MattZed]

In terms of fundamentals, I would much rather new players learn how to use a core investigative role like Sheriff (which will appear in many future games for them) than a far more niche role like Bus Driver. I know MZ has a thing for BD, but I'm not sure we should have a no investigative game for newcomers.

A Sheriff is also beneficial in teaching other Town how to recognize soft / hard claims by Sheriffs, clearing players in Last Wills, and other nuts and bolts "how to play / how to react to investigative roles". BD is far more hero ball by the player who rolls it, which is less of the idea of a beginner game.
Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

[Cryptonic]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

[Gyrlander]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

HMMM That's a great idea. Maybe the begginers should choose what setup they want to play? (interesting or basic)

[Unknown1234]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

This.

[secondpassing]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

This x3

[powerofdeath]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

Yeah, I remember my first FM, slaol and ika were the hosts of cops and robbers and I remember how very different and unique the roles are, and it got me very hooked.

[SuperJack]

Then I implore someone to bring a game suitable for newbies yet unique and fun.

[MattZed]

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

[Cryptonic]

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

Lmao, not that unique. More Unique roles, Less Unique Mechanics lol

[MattZed]

Lmao, not that unique. More Unique roles, Less Unique Mechanics lol
What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

[Cryptonic]

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Neutral

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Neutral: Amnesiac, Executioner, Jester, Student, Survivor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.

[Cryptonic]

What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

Actress, Strongman, Sleuth, Drug Dealer, Fabricator, Grave Robber, Lawyer, Mortician, Tailor, Traitor, Ventriloquist, Architect, Armorsmith, Blacksmith, Body Double, Bulletproof, Enchantress, Gunsmith, Journalist, Nurse, Professor, Arms Dealer, Ghost, Magician, Ninja, Student, Soul Thief, Devourer, Electromaniac, Hunter, Joker, Killer Agent, Poisoner, Cult Leader, Acolyte, ect

[DarknessB]

Our new players will likely come from the mod. I think they know how to follow a cop and to put leads in last wills. If you want to help them learn fundamentals, don't give them the crutch of being able to count on an investigative role.

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?

[DarknessB]

This x3

This from the guy who wanted to put a MAYOR in the Beginner's Game. Because clearly, newbie Mayors in games have worked out so well -- FF7 was just a lovely game for the Town...

[DarknessB]

IMO, If you want to make new players stay, you should have a fun & exciting setup to show how interesting FM can be.
Include roles not in the mod, ect.

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

[DarknessB]

So what I'm gathering here is that you guys want me to host Illuminati as a newbie game.

Nah, Suicide Still Allowed was better. Or Lynch Fetish.

[Gyrlander]

The answer is S-FM Watermeloann. Nothing else needs to be said in this thread.

Please.

[DarknessB]

What unique roles do we really have? Tailor? Electromaniac?

Archaeologist.

[DarknessB]

In all seriousness, we could have a couple of interesting flourishes in the Beginner's Game, but the whole point is to keep it simple so people don't get overwhelmed and to give them a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is going to be like. It should be far more about scumhunting and Citizen play than TPR Madness. They will get enough TPR Madness when they sign up for FB's games, lol.

[Cryptonic]

In all seriousness, we could have a couple of interesting flourishes in the Beginner's Game, but the whole point is to keep it simple so people don't get overwhelmed and to give them a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is going to be like. It should be far more about scumhunting and Citizen play than TPR Madness. They will get enough TPR Madness when they sign up for FB's games, lol.

They aren't retarded, nor are they children. It's not their first time playing Mafia if we're pulling them from the Mod.
People who play the SC2 Mod are used to a high TPR setup. We should keep the same spirit to maintain interest.
You think someone who plays fast pace Mafia all the time wants to come and play a slow game where no one posts any information because they're not accustomed to so many players having no action? I personally don't think people would have a lot of fun. Would it increase skills? Sure, but that's not what these games are accomplishing. We want people to be interested in what FM has to offer, so a happy medium between SC2 Mafia + Basic Scum Hunting game is definitely the way to go.


Also, you state you want them to have a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is. Most regular S-FMs are not a follow the cop basic game with majority Citizens.

[MattZed]

Most S-FMs have investigative roles. Why would want to simulate something that isn't the case in 99% of games?
"99%" is a fair bit of an exaggeration. For instance, S-FMs 196, 197, and 199 did not have town investigative roles.

[MattZed]

They aren't retarded, nor are they children. It's not their first time playing Mafia if we're pulling them from the Mod.
People who play the SC2 Mod are used to a high TPR setup. We should keep the same spirit to maintain interest.
You think someone who plays fast pace Mafia all the time wants to come and play a slow game where no one posts any information because they're not accustomed to so many players having no action? I personally don't think people would have a lot of fun. Would it increase skills? Sure, but that's not what these games are accomplishing. We want people to be interested in what FM has to offer, so a happy medium between SC2 Mafia + Basic Scum Hunting game is definitely the way to go.


Also, you state you want them to have a decent simulation of what a regular S-FM is. Most regular S-FMs are not a follow the cop basic game with majority Citizens.
There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

[DarknessB]

There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

196 was experimental by admission, 197 was 100% role randomized and had a naive sheriff, 199 was a trolly game. This is the reason we're having a vanilla queue, lol.

[Cryptonic]

There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

To include only non-veteran FM players, so they don't rely on those types of players to lead discussion, ect.

[DarknessB]

There's nothing that says they can't just sign for any other S-FM. What's the point of having a starter game if it's identical to a non-starter game?

Holy shit -- I actually agreed with MZ on something?

[MattZed]

196 was experimental by admission, 197 was 100% role randomized and had a naive sheriff, 199 was a trolly game. This is the reason we're having a vanilla queue, lol.
They were all fairly good games and within the bounds of typical S-FMs. We're not as addicted to investigative roles as you might believe.

[Calix]

What exactly is the point of a starter game if it's similar to the mod?

If they don't like majority-vanilla games, then FM isn't for them. It's that simple. If they cannot adjust to Citizens, they aren't suited to play FMs.

If someone doesn't teach them the basics so that they know what they are doing (without relying on a bunch of night actions), then player quality is going to drop even more. (thus making people less inclined to play)

We achieve nothing but a temporary boost in activity with a TPR-fest.

[Cryptonic]

Holy shit -- I actually agreed with MZ on something?

It's not identical, so you're both wrong if you agree lol.

The point isn't to train their Forum Mafia skills, it's to gather interest and ensure they have an enjoyable time.


What's the point of having a super basic, low action game? How does this benefit a beginner's perception of Forum Mafia?

[DarknessB]

They were all fairly good games and within the bounds of typical S-FMs. We're not as addicted to investigative roles as you might believe.

The host admitted that 196 didn't work out amazingly well. 197 was a randomized nightmare with Mafia and SK winning together (trolly end). Much as I'd like to bash you, at least 199 was close. These were not 3 of our best games, lol.

[Cryptonic]

What exactly is the point of a starter game if it's similar to the mod?

If they don't like majority-vanilla games, then FM isn't for them. It's that simple. If they cannot adjust to Citizens, they aren't suited to play FMs.

If someone doesn't teach them the basics so that they know what they are doing (without relying on a bunch of night actions), then player quality is going to drop even more. (thus making people less inclined to play)

We achieve nothing but a temporary boost in activity with a TPR-fest.

That is a piss poor view to have. If they don't view Forum Mafia the way you see it, then they shouldn't play Forum Mafia? The point is to gather new members to increase the demand for ALL setups, not to increase the demand for vanilla setups only.

We want ANY new FM players, not just ones that want to play Citizen vs Mafioso, with a Doctor here and there.

[MattZed]

It's not identical, so you're both wrong if you agree lol.

The point isn't to train their Forum Mafia skills, it's to gather interest and ensure they have an enjoyable time.


What's the point of having a super basic, low action game? How does this benefit a beginner's perception of Forum Mafia?
We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.

But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
PowersThatBe, do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)

[Cryptonic]

Pulling players from the SC2 Mod will be more successful if they game more resembles what they're used to and currently enjoy. After they get interested in Forum Mafia, then they will possibly join a high-vanilla game. Maybe some won't, and will wait until a more experimental setup comes open.

If we were pulling players from other sites for this game, or people who have never played Mafia... Sure, then Vanilla would be the way to go. But not with the pool we're pulling players from.

[Cryptonic]

We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.

But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
PowersThatBe, do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)

Yea, that's what I'm saying. Did you see the setup I posted? It's like Max 4 TPR, and all 4 of those TPR could be Citizens.

A 1:1:1 Non-Town:TPR:Citizen setup is balanced

[Mesk514]

This is Panda's calling to redeem herself.... can i mentor?

[Calix]

That is a piss poor view to have. If they don't view Forum Mafia the way you see it, then they shouldn't play Forum Mafia? The point is to gather new members to increase the demand for ALL setups, not to increase the demand for vanilla setups only.

We want ANY new FM players, not just ones that want to play Citizen vs Mafioso, with a Doctor here and there.

You are the one trying to encourage low-quality players to flood the site without them knowing the basics of how to scum-hunt (which is why you'd pick FMs in the first place...), even though that will make future games worse and discourage people from playing.

None of the regulars are going to want to play with people who don't know how to scum-hunt properly, meaning that they leave for another site, and then the activity drops anyway once most of the new players get bored and go back to the mod. Why would they bother with a two-week FM when they can have a 20-minute mod game?

Again, your strategy is only going to increase activity in the short-term.

[DarknessB]

This is @Panda (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=28200)'s calling to redeem herself.... can i mentor?

Ever since Day 2 of last game, she's been too busy with her broads in Atlanta.

[PowersThatBe]

We don't need to go super basic or TPR fest. There's a comfortable middle ground here with a fair amount of citizens, something like potentially like the setup you proposed. That middle ground is where S-FMs tend to be, anyways.

But let's ask the participants of last time's starter game how they felt.
PowersThatBe, do you think you would have preferred to play the starter game with more or fewer TPRs? (or about the same?)


TBH, as being the only other TPR and having NO idea what I was doing... I feel like there should have been at least a min of 3 in the beginner game. I don't know if that would have helped anything, but with 9 players 2 mafia and 2 tprs and 5 citizens just made it so hard to figure everything out for brand new people.

Some players had more experience from other sites and that allowed them to figure more of the game out.

I feel like I just incoherently rambled.

[Cryptonic]

You are the one trying to encourage low-quality players to flood the site without them knowing the basics of how to scum-hunt (which is why you'd pick FMs in the first place...), even though that will make future games worse and discourage people from playing.

None of the regulars are going to want to play with people who don't know how to scum-hunt properly, meaning that they leave for another site, and then the activity drops anyway once most of the new players get bored and go back to the mod. Why would they bother with a two-week FM when they can have a 20-minute mod game?

Again, your strategy is only going to increase activity in the short-term.

I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.

[PowersThatBe]

And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.

[Calix]

I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.

Thank you for ignoring the rest of my post to pretend that I was insulting everyone who has ever played the mod. Pray tell, where do you think I come from that I cannot relate to this experience whatsoever?

If someone moves from the mod to FMs, their play IS going to be low-quality because they're not used to playing. Giving them a similar setup to one that they can just play in the mod isn't going to encourage them to stick around.

They will find it far easier to just continue playing the mod if they get the impression that FMs are just a longer version of them.

[Calix]

And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.

That would have led to mass role-claiming and using mechanics > reads to POE the scum.

[PowersThatBe]

That would have led to mass role-claiming and using mechanics > reads to POE the scum.

Maybe. Nothing can ever be said for certain.

[Cryptonic]

Thank you for ignoring the rest of my post to pretend that I was insulting everyone who has ever played the mod. Pray tell, where do you think I come from that I cannot relate to this experience whatsoever?

If someone moves from the mod to FMs, their play IS going to be low-quality because they're not used to playing. Giving them a similar setup to one that they can just play in the mod isn't going to encourage them to stick around.

They will find it far easier to just continue playing the mod if they get the impression that FMs are just a longer version of them.

Well it's a ridiculous statement to make. People from the mod already know how to scum hunt.
We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?". No, we're pulling in people who have at least shown some natural talent. Yes, someone is going to have low-quality FM skills, but they develop it by playing FM.

Just because a FM setup is similar to a SC2 Mod setup, does not mean the games get played the same. How are you coming to that conclusion?

[Calix]

Maybe. Nothing can ever be said for certain.

Romeo & Juliet had unique roles.

Everyone had claimed by Day 2 and scum conceded...in a Cult setup.

[Mesk514]

Ever since Day 2 of last game, she's been too busy with her broads in Atlanta.

you mean she's been busy with her broads playing Animal Crossing.

[MattZed]

And I would have preferred a game full of unique roles.
Do you mean unique in the sense that each person has a power role that they can't, even in theory, share with someone else, or that the roles are less commonly seen on the site?

[DarknessB]

I know this will shock you, but majority of us came to this site for FM from the Mod. The first games we played were not Mafiosox2, Sheriff, Doc, Cit. We played unique and fun setups that got us hooked on Forum Mafia.

So, please don't insult all of us by saying none of us know how to scum hunt.

With all due respect, some of the mod players are quite a bit less serious than FM players. This isn't necessarily their fault -- it's more that mod games are 1/2 hour long, are automatically set up by the computer / map, and are fairly predictable for the most part. Dicking around in a mod game isn't too much of a big deal -- you're either going to die fast or your night actions will save the day. Given games are overly quickly, no one really cares if you completely crap out in a mod game vs. an FM.

FM is an entirely different animal and I think there should be an emphasis on recruiting those players who would take well to it. Hardcore lurking, overdependence on night actions, no desire to scumhunt beyond night leads, and excessive trolling are very much negative things that diminish the overall FM experience here. Not saying that FM players aren't guilty of these things themselves, but we should want mod players to realize this isn't just the mod on a forum.

I myself started on the mod so I'm not denigrating mod players, but suggesting there are many of them who want the short attention span type game. If we don't distinguish FM from that type of experience, the quality of games is going to degrade terribly. It doesn't take many inactive players, trolling players, gamethrowing players, etc. to wreck a game -- often times, just one in fact. I see no reason why we shouldn't be shooting to get the cream of the crop from the mod vs. having tons of players who don't particularly take things seriously or want to play well.

[Calix]

Well it's a ridiculous statement to make. People from the mod already know how to scum hunt.
We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?". No, we're pulling in people who have at least shown some natural talent. Yes, someone is going to have low-quality FM skills, but they develop it by playing FM.

Just because a FM setup is similar to a SC2 Mod setup, does not mean the games get played the same. How are you coming to that conclusion?

How exactly does this recruitment of the mod players with "natural talent" work? What's the process?

I came to that conclusion based on my experiences with this site, where too many players focus on trying to solve the game using mechanics, setup speculation, host meta, etc, instead of meshing that with their reads on players.

This is something that should change in order to improve the quality of ALL games and it would be nice if we could make that a priority with the new players.

[DarknessB]

Romeo & Juliet had unique roles.

Everyone had claimed by Day 2 and scum conceded...in a Cult setup.

Our site is absolutely terrible with mass claims -- unique roles are not a good thing and give scum nowhere to hide. Many games with a lot of potential have ended with a boring Day 2 mass claim.

[DarknessB]

We're not going on the mod and being like "Hey Man, You sucked shit. You sheeped and lynched 3 fellow Town members and handed the game to the Mafia. Have you ever considered Forum Mafia?"

That's very close to, if not literally, how SuperJack recruits, Crypt -- were you not aware of the "ex-cons for FM" program? :)

[Cryptonic]

With all due respect, some of the mod players are quite a bit less serious than FM players. This isn't necessarily their fault -- it's more that mod games are 1/2 hour long, are automatically set up by the computer / map, and are fairly predictable for the most part. Dicking around in a mod game isn't too much of a big deal -- you're either going to die fast or your night actions will save the day. Given games are overly quickly, no one really cares if you completely crap out in a mod game vs. an FM.

FM is an entirely different animal and I think there should be an emphasis on recruiting those players who would take well to it. Hardcore lurking, overdependence on night actions, no desire to scumhunt beyond night leads, and excessive trolling are very much negative things that diminish the overall FM experience here. Not saying that FM players aren't guilty of these things themselves, but we should want mod players to realize this isn't just the mod on a forum.

I myself started on the mod so I'm not denigrating mod players, but suggesting there are many of them who want the short attention span type game. If we don't distinguish FM from that type of experience, the quality of games is going to degrade terribly. It doesn't take many inactive players, trolling players, gamethrowing players, etc. to wreck a game -- often times, just one in fact. I see no reason why we shouldn't be shooting to get the cream of the crop from the mod vs. having tons of players who don't particularly take things seriously or want to play well.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. We're not recruiting pure trolls, or idiots who don't know how to play. We go out of our way to invite people who have shown promise as an FM player.

I'm not saying to have a game identical to SC2 Mod, I'm saying give it a similar feel. Making them more comfortable with what they're doing, posting more. They are playing something similar to something that are confirmed to enjoy. I've never once stated to have a mass TPR game, but FM can be fun, balanced, and require scum hunting and NOT be 50 Citizens.

[Quick]

See, look:

https://epicmafia.com/setup/693

Epic mafia is not exactly the gold standard IMO.

[Cryptonic]

How exactly does this recruitment of the mod players with "natural talent" work? What's the process?

I came to that conclusion based on my experiences with this site, where too many players focus on trying to solve the game using mechanics, setup speculation, host meta, etc, instead of meshing that with their reads on players.

This is something that should change in order to improve the quality of ALL games and it would be nice if we could make that a priority with the new players.

You play with people. You are impressed with their play, their actions, ect. You initiate a conversation with them and invite them to play.

Yes, improving the quality of games is definitely a priority, but it is not the purpose of something like this. It is to increase overall traffic.


Please look @ the setup I posted and explain to me how a setup like that would discourage scum hunting.

[Calix]

If you're concerned about making it FEEL like a mod game, could you not work towards this with role-play?

I am in no way saying that will dress over anything but I think it could help with what you are referring to.

[Cryptonic]

Epic mafia is not exactly the gold standard IMO.

Obviously not, but the numbers are fairly accurate when you're working with such a large survey size.

[Cryptonic]

Our site is absolutely terrible with mass claims -- unique roles are not a good thing and give scum nowhere to hide. Many games with a lot of potential have ended with a boring Day 2 mass claim.

Agreed. You'll get a few Townies that will literally fake claim because logic.

[PowersThatBe]

Do you mean unique in the sense that each person has a power role that they can't, even in theory, share with someone else, or that the roles are less commonly seen on the site?


I mean like the mod. Every role unique instead of a few and mass citi

[Quick]

Then I implore someone to bring a game suitable for newbies yet unique and fun.

Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Mafioso
Mafioso

This setup takes the most skill of What is actually itt IMO.


As an aside:
1) adding an uber complicated setup is not newbie friendly
2) In my experience Mafia have a better chance of winning in a game with beginners.

[DarknessB]

You play with people. You are impressed with their play, their actions, ect. You initiate a conversation with them and invite them to play.

Yes, improving the quality of games is definitely a priority, but it is not the purpose of something like this. It is to increase overall traffic.


Please look @ the setup I posted and explain to me how a setup like that would discourage scum hunting.

I would think most of us would be concerned with quality over quantity though, given the size of most S-FMs and fact that it can only take one bad apple to ruin the entire bunch / an entire game. Perhaps part of that is greater policing by hosts, FM staff, and the community itself to discourage and / or penalize problematic behavior. I just feel like it's very easy for new players to not get it, not care that they are wrecking games with the behavior, and leave a string of dead slots before they lose interest in the game.

We obviously can't prevent people from signing for games, but I'd argue hosts, the FM staff, and the community should play a larger role in making sure that doesn't happen. As it is, I feel like everyone (especially hosts and FM staff) has an overly laissez-faire attitude and let the problem players fester until dedicated community members leave out of frustration over the decreased quality of play / unaddressed issues in games. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but the point is related in terms of quality > quantity IMO.

[DarknessB]

Sheriff
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Mafioso
Mafioso

This setup takes the most skill of What is actually itt IMO.


As an aside:
1) adding an uber complicated setup is not newbie friendly
2) In my experience Mafia have a better chance of winning in a game with beginners.

This is basically Camp Mafia without the tied lynch mechanic. I agree with Crypt that most newbies would find it excessively flat though and we should strive to be a little more lively in terms of fostering longer term interest in the game. On the other hand, I agree with Quick that the Mafia stand a better shot in beginner games because no one knows how to scumhunt and they are informed. Also, lurkers are often given a pass in beginner games because people aren't confident enough to push them.

[Calix]

Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.

If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)

Makes the game too swingy for my liking.

I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.

Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.

[Cryptonic]

I would think most of us would be concerned with quality over quantity though, given the size of most S-FMs and fact that it can only take one bad apple to ruin the entire bunch / an entire game. Perhaps part of that is greater policing by hosts, FM staff, and the community itself to discourage and / or penalize problematic behavior. I just feel like it's very easy for new players to not get it, not care that they are wrecking games with the behavior, and leave a string of dead slots before they lose interest in the game.

We obviously can't prevent people from signing for games, but I'd argue hosts, the FM staff, and the community should play a larger role in making sure that doesn't happen. As it is, I feel like everyone has an overly laissez-faire attitude and let the problem players fester until dedicated community members leave out of frustration over the decreased quality of play. I realize this is a bit of a tangent, but the point is related in terms of quality > quantity IMO.

I don't understand the correlation between people who ruin games and having a setup with fewer Citizens. Am I missing something?

[Quick]

Obviously not, but the numbers are fairly accurate when you're working with such a large survey size.

My point is, if you are going to take from a source where quality is not primary, what is even the point?

[MattZed]

This thread is going off on way too many tangents. The matter at hand is the next starter game.

This is SC2 Mafia. Our main player draw is going to be players from the mod. The point of the starter game is to draw them in, get them involved in FM, and hopefully teach them a thing or two about the differences between the mod and FM. The question to be answered is: what setup best optimizes these three goals?

Unknown and PTB, two players from the previous start game, have commented that they wouldn't have preferred an overly simple a game. While a simple game may be good for improving skills, it likely doesn't do well on the first two goals of drawing players and getting them involved.

Cryptonic posted a very nice setup, and what to do about this setup should be the next thing to discuss:

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Neutral

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Neutral: Amnesiac, Executioner, Jester, Student, Survivor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.

[Cryptonic]

My point is, if you are going to take from a source where quality is not primary, what is even the point?

Because both sides are of the same quality. When something has been played that many times, you have such a decent sample that the numbers are accurate regardless of skill level skew of a few hundred games.

[Quick]

This is basically Camp Mafia without the tied lynch mechanic. I agree with Crypt that most newbies would find it excessively flat though and we should strive to be a little more lively in terms of fostering longer term interest in the game. On the other hand, I agree with Quick that the Mafia stand a better shot in beginner games because no one knows how to scumhunt and they are informed. Also, lurkers are often given a pass in beginner games because people aren't confident enough to push them.

I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?

[DarknessB]

I don't understand the correlation between people who ruin games and having a setup with fewer Citizens. Am I missing something?

I was addressing more your point about the types of players that we recruit from the mod and needing to be very careful and deliberate about who we encourage to give FM a shot. It really only takes one player to ruin games and players from the outside who aren't familiar with our customs are often more likely to be that type of disruptive person.

The recruiting side is what relates to this discussion -- in the past, players with a heavy presence on the mod's ban list have been recruited to play FM by some members of the community, and I'd argue we need to very careful to ensure those players do not carry that behavior over to FM games, as has occurred in some cases.

[DarknessB]

I see your point on making the game "interesting" for newbies, but newbies are not going to think "this game didn't have enough PR to be fun for me." On top of that, why add more swing to a mafia game where accurate NA is a bigger deal for a newbie game?

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.

[Cryptonic]

Cryptonic, I still think your favourite 7-player setup is a better option. I would not risk skewing the odds of a Town: Mafia win too much in one direction.

If this setup was used, I don't agree with having a Neutral involved for a first game, given that it means the Mafia can also scum-hunt and thus takes away a part of scum-hunting. (the fact that Mafia are informed and Town are not)

Makes the game too swingy for my liking.

I like Quick's setup but I do not think that even the "veterans" on this site know what the optimal strategies for that kind of game are, so giving it to new mod players would be a nightmare.

Guess I might use it for the Vanilla S-FM queue though.

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

[Quick]

Because both sides are of the same quality. When something has been played that many times, you have such a decent sample that the numbers are accurate regardless of skill level skew of a few hundred games.

This argument could just go back and forth because we are considering different things. I'll just say one more time that just because on some other site somewhere that they have some semblance of balance is not a correlation coefficient for what we can expect here.

[MattZed]

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.
I worry that 3v7 would be a little too scumsided. There's also the matter that I think SJ is aiming more for 7-9 players. Perhaps 2v6 or 2v7?

[DarknessB]

I can agree that a Neutral can give too much swing, which would incite setup/host reads.

Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia
Hidden Mafia

Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Hidden Town
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

Possible Hidden Mafia: Actress, Consigliere, Consort, Drug Dealer, Janitor, Mafioso, Tailor.
Possible Hidden Town: Architect, Blacksmith, Bodyguard, Bus Driver, Citizen, Detective, Doctor, Escort, Mason, Mayor, Sheriff, Veteran, Vigilante.


This would also be balanced.

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

[Quick]

Several newbies from the last beginner's game, namely Unknown and PTB, made that exact point, saying they would have preferred more TPRs in their game, which only had two.

Yes, I see your point. Just asking if you are talking about Unknown or Unknown1234 because PTB is not an average player.

I would, however, like to make a suggestion for newbie games which is to have a sort of mentor or coach that can help the newbs along the way during the game.

[MattZed]

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.
None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

[DarknessB]

Yes, I see your point. Just asking if you are talking about Unknown or Unknown1234 because PTB is not an average player.

I would, however, like to make a suggestion for newbie games which is to have a sort of mentor or coach that can help the newbs along the way during the game.

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

[Cryptonic]

I'd argue we either kill a couple of the more complicated roles or basically just not roll them -- namely, Drug Dealer, Architect, Blacksmith, and Mayor. Our site is absolutely brutal with newcomers rolling Mayor (flashbacks to FF7) and they just encourage one person to lord over the game versus having everyone participate evenly. Not a good idea for a Beginner's Game IMO. Tailor is also a bit evil for a Beginner's Game. The rest is fairly accessible to the mod crowd.

The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.

[Cryptonic]

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing

[DarknessB]

The point of roles like Tailor & Drug Dealer being present in the game is the WIFOM it adds as being possible, not the actual presence of the role in the game.

Understood -- I would just suggest that our veterans often aren't good at dealing with that WIFOM, much less newcomers, so it might be a little cruel to them in a first game.

[DarknessB]

That's because no one wants to play a game they're not actually playing

Just depends on the mentors in question and how invested they are in helping new players. I was very active as a mentor in the first game and treated it like I was playing the game in terms of how I followed what was going on. I think we have enough overactive players (Calix, etc.) that we could make the mentor system work -- just needs clearer expectations on the role.

[DarknessB]

None of these roles are especially complicated. And putting them in is precisely the point. The second goal is to get players interested in FM in general, and one way to do that is to show them power roles they wouldn't be able to play in the mod.

But on the note of death-deception: I suggest Coroner be added as a possible town role.

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

[Cryptonic]

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.

Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.

[DarknessB]

Fair enough, but I don't see how Drug Dealer is cruel. It's an extremely common role.

I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.

[Calix]

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

[MattZed]

Messing with the graveyard is a level of mind-fuckery beyond which I think most beginners would appreciate. Many veterans hate stuff like that as well. Being able to trust the role reveals seems like a very fair thing for a beginner's game IMO.
We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: PowersThatBe, how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

[Quick]

We had mentors in the last Beginner's Game, except most of them did virtually nothing, lol. Need to pick ones who will be more invested in helping their mentee. Obviously, if the mentees don't want help, that's a different story, but I heard lots of cases of players suffering in silence without help from their mentors in that first game.

Right, I can see how that would be a problem. Possibly better to get people who are passionate about the game rather than necessarily the best players?

[Calix]

I feel like some players will already find it challenging enough to adjust to FMs and the site meta here. It's only fair that they have SOME reliable information as a foundation to go forth with.

There are plenty of games here where such roles are not used, so I don't think they're necessary.

This is referring to the roles that can change alignment flips.

[Cryptonic]

I'd like the Drug Dealer from Watermeloann personally, if we're going to troll them, lol.

It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?

[Calix]

Mafia Wars reference.

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him :)

[Unknown1234]

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him :)

Um.

[DarknessB]

We're doing a bit too much speculating about how players in the starter games would feel and not enough actually talking to our newer and prospective players.

Let's summon my mentee again: @PowersThatBe (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=27821) , how would you have felt if Tailor was a possible role in your starter game?

PTB was insanely overactive in that game -- he's not indicative of the average starting player. It's a beginner's game, MZ, not Illuminati. We want them not to be traumatized to the point that they never return. Let them trust the damn graveyard.

[MattZed]

Um.
The Drug Dealer in that S-FM... didn't quite work as it does in usual FMs.

[Calix]

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.

[DarknessB]

It's not to troll, it's to encourage discussion on things like feedback, figuring out who was bussed, was the roleblock real, ect.
How is Drug Dealer trolling?

Oh, the Watermeloann Drug Dealer was different than a normal one. When you got drugged, you couldn't use certain letters and if you did, you got modkilled, lol. Toadette fell into the trap and MZ cheated his way around it with find-replace on every post before submitting it.

[DarknessB]

I agree that having DB be a town-aligned Drug Dealer was indeed troll. Especially given what happened to him :)

For everyone's reference -- roleblocked by FB, recruited by Yuki, and the scum didn't attack (WIFOM trolling), so everyone was on my ass d2 thinking I was the attacking scum member. Gotta love dying because of a unfortunate convergence of three different night actions.

[Quick]

After thinking about this while talking it out itt I think the right course of action is to add few, read: few PR that you can't use in the mod and have those be most if not all the PR in the game.

[MattZed]

MattZed, I'm not sure that using your mentee as the voice to guide us with making a new starting S-FM is representative or impartial.
It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask Unknown1234 or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

[DarknessB]

It's better to ask him than to presume we automatically know what new players would want. We don't have to limit ourselves to PTB; he's just who I knew was online and that I could pull in here. It doesn't matter if you ask @Unknown1234 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=28243) or whatnot, the point is that we should be welcoming input from last game's players to decide the setup for this one.

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.

[MattZed]

Input is fine, but it's a BEGINNER'S GAME -- the whole point isn't to mind fuck them, but let them have the chance to figure stuff out without 18 levels of WIFOM. Many veterans dislike graveyard altering roles (other than Janitor) -- I have no idea why you would want to subject brand new players to it.
I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input before assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

[Calix]

I'm not sure you get my point about asking for input before assuming what starter game players would want.

I'm not overly attached to having a Tailor, but I don't consider it outside the realm of "possible new mechanics mod-experienced players can learn."

I would not say that Tailors or the like are common enough on our site to be a possibility in a beginner's setup.

Given it's already a game about paranoia, adding them in just seems excessive. As stated earlier, the possibility screws too much with Town's ability to trust the information that the Host gives them in the day post.

As Crypt mentioned, Actress/ Drug Dealer can create discussion. However, Tailor just creates chaos.

[Cryptonic]

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

[Calix]

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

Actress would cover the potentials that 1-use Tailor would do.

Tailoring a Town can be countered with Last Wills.

Having a Tailor suit Mafia seems redundant when you already have Actress. (a self-tailoring Mafia role) Tailor just makes the Mafia stronger because they have more flexibility.

Any positive benefits that Tailor would add to discussion are already covered by Actress.

[Unknown1234]

Not sure all the complicated roles would work, but I think a citizen game could potentially bore the new comers. So I would say having unique roles might be more interesting, the only issue would be balancing the setup

[Yukitaka Oni]

Not sure all the complicated roles would work, but I think a citizen game could potentially bore the new comers. So I would say having unique roles might be more interesting, the only issue would be balancing the setup
Change the name of citizen into another name but the power remain the same

[Unknown1234]

Change the name of citizen into another name but the power remain the same

How about Mayor?

[Quick]

If Tailor was in it, I think 1 Charge would be all it could have

I don't think that would be TOO bad. I guess it would depend what other/how many other PR were in the game. I mean Taylor with a combination with a few others depending on what they were could be pretty bad.

[Quick]

After thinking about this while talking it out itt I think the right course of action is to add few, read: few PR that you can't use in the mod and have those be most if not all the PR in the game.

To expand on this I don't think a list of 20 PR that could potentially be in the game is not appropriate. Maybe like 2-3 extra.

[Yukitaka Oni]

How about Mayor?
Just like Koopalitic or other game, the name only make the game more exciting. The power of role stay the same

[BananaCucho]

Tailor is the worst role that has been invented and should not exist

But what do I know I'm just a banana

[Cryptonic]

Tailor is the worst role that has been invented and should not exist

But what do I know I'm just a banana

Why

[BananaCucho]

Why

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

[Quick]

Actress, Strongman, Sleuth, Drug Dealer, Fabricator, Grave Robber, Lawyer, Mortician, Tailor, Traitor, Ventriloquist, Architect, Armorsmith, Blacksmith, Body Double, Bulletproof, Enchantress, Gunsmith, Journalist, Nurse, Professor, Arms Dealer, Ghost, Magician, Ninja, Student, Soul Thief, Devourer, Electromaniac, Hunter, Joker, Killer Agent, Poisoner, Cult Leader, Acolyte, ect

Triad.

[DarknessB]

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

Someone paste this explanation in the next time someone tries to run with a Tailor in a setup.

[Quick]

It's too op. Flips are supposed to give you at least some information to analyze. Tailors fuck that up. Unless a coroner or something exists to counter it (which almost never seems to be the case) it shouldn't exist because it takes the information you could have gotten from a successful lynch and turns it into fuckery.

Town is already uninformed and Mafia is a puzzle and the tool town uses to piece together is puzzle is flips and when they lynch a scum that flip should be a reward for successfully lynching, not "okay who mislynched town?" Further, if Tailor exists at all in the roles list that gives an edge to Mafia and they can fake their last wills to make it seem like Tailor exists if they want.

In games with a janitor at least you're clued in that a janitor exists when someone flips ??? in the graveyard, but with Tailor there is no such indication or confirmation until a Tailor is killed.

You make a good point, however, you must consider that Scum must be about their wits if they want to come up with a plausible role that that player could be. With games with mass claim it could be pretty difficult to say for example tailor a Sheriff as Doc.

[Kovath]

You make a good point, however, you must consider that Scum must be about their wits if they want to come up with a plausible role that that player could be. With games with mass claim it could be pretty difficult to say for example tailor a Sheriff as Doc.

Not especially. All you need to do is tailor a flip as the opposite alignment and some relatively reasonable role in order to scramble the minds of town.

[Quick]

Not especially. All you need to do is tailor a flip as the opposite alignment and some relatively reasonable role in order to scramble the minds of town.

Kinda? But for the latter that can depend on how good the players are in the game. What I am trying to say is that a sloppy Tailor could be disastrous for the scum.

[BananaCucho]

Kinda? But for the latter that can depend on how good the players are in the game. What I am trying to say is that a sloppy Tailor could be disastrous for the scum.

Any sloppy player can be disastrous to their team regardless of the role. The action is most likely discussed by the whole team in a night chat anyway. The role itself is still op regardless of the skill of who holds it

[Quick]

Any sloppy player can be disastrous to their team regardless of the role. The action is most likely discussed by the whole team in a night chat anyway. The role itself is still op regardless of the skill of who holds it

You argue I do not account for any player to be a detriment in this game. I'd argue if that's the case all things being equal, that the setup and to consider ALL the roles in the setup is what you may not be accounting for in your argument. Tailor by itself in the hands of scum is OP, no argument from me there. But to say it can't work in any setup is a bit much. You might as well throw away any negative utility Town role to not be valid. To take this to an extreme, why have PR at all?

[Kovath]

You argue I do not account for any player to be a detriment to town. I'd argue if that's the case all things being equal, that the setup and to consider ALL the roles in the setup is what you may not be accounting for in your argument. Tailor by itself in the hands of scum is OP, no argument from me there. But to say it can't work in any setup is a bit much. You might as well throw away any negative utility Town role to not be valid. To take this to an extreme, why have PR at all?

This is not a full-on response to Banana's point. You originally stated that a badly played Tailor can hurt scum. This is true, but is the case for any badly played role. The point made earlier in the thread was that a correctly, skillfully-utilized Tailor is far more powerful than the vast majority of roles from the same condition, i.e. ability to affect a game's result by one slot. It is true that Tailors can work in some setups, for instance ones with Coroners, just like many flavor setups have an OP role that is meant to be balanced by other factors; yet most setups with Tailors end up not having Coroners.

This is not an argument at all to take away PRs, it is a point that in many situations, Tailor simply far outclasses other roles in ability to damage the town while the setups often are not tailored (hah) to accomodate that edge.

[BananaCucho]

You argue I do not account for any player to be a detriment to town. I'd argue if that's the case all things being equal, that the setup and to consider ALL the roles in the setup is what you may not be accounting for in your argument. Tailor by itself in the hands of scum is OP, no argument from me there. But to say it can't work in any setup is a bit much. You might as well throw away any negative utility Town role to not be valid. To take this to an extreme, why have PR at all?

Now you're just exaggerating.

[Quick]

This is not a full-on response to Banana's point. You originally stated that a badly played Tailor can hurt scum. This is true, but is the case for any badly played role. The point made earlier in the thread was that a correctly, skillfully-utilized Tailor is far more powerful than the vast majority of roles from the same condition, i.e. ability to affect a game's result by one slot. It is true that Tailors can work in some setups, for instance ones with Coroners, just like many flavor setups have an OP role that is meant to be balanced by other factors; yet most setups with Tailors end up not having Coroners.

This is not an argument at all to take away PRs, it is a point that in many situations, Tailor simply far outclasses other roles in ability to damage the town while the setups often are not tailored (hah) to accomodate that edge.

Not having any PRs follows the same logic though. I mean where would it stop exactly? You could argue Sheriff is OP because it gives alignment checks on people, which is kinda the opposite of Tailor.

My point is not that Tailors are a good role, my point is that they CAN be a good role. If that's a problem, then obviously it is a bigger problem than just one OP role and people might have to consider what is considered a balanced setup and Admins might have to step in or have stricter guidelines on what is considered balanced.

[Kovath]

Not having any PRs follows the same logic though. I mean where would it stop exactly? You could argue Sheriff is OP because it gives alignment checks on people, which is kinda the opposite of Tailor.

My point is not that Tailors are a good role, my point is that they CAN be a good role. If that's a problem, then obviously it is a bigger problem than just one OP role and people might have to consider what is considered a balanced setup and Admins might have to step in or have stricter guidelines on what is considered balanced.

The point has already been made that flips are one of the most important pieces of information and in most games, the only piece of information players can 100% trust. And it is from there that one can begin to read interactions and so on, so it is an absolutely critical component of the game. A tailored flip can completely change the calculus and reads of a town, including how one would reach Sheriff checks for example (ex. I got a check different than what this guy flipped, is there a Framer? Now this is a constant worry).

Sheriff alignment checks are on a completely different level from that. Again, Tailors are just uniquely powerful because they target graveyard flips (and sometimes investigative actions as well).

[BananaCucho]

Not having any PRs follows the same logic though. I mean where would it stop exactly? You could argue Sheriff is OP because it gives alignment checks on people, which is kinda the opposite of Tailor.

My point is not that Tailors are a good role, my point is that they CAN be a good role. If that's a problem, then obviously it is a bigger problem than just one OP role and people might have to consider what is considered a balanced setup and Admins might have to step in or have stricter guidelines on what is considered balanced.

Tailored flips are public. Sheriff checks are private. Not the same. A sheriff doesn't check someone and have a message go out saying "the checked player is Mafia!", that would be op - instead town has to decide whether or not to trust the sheriff's claim, and then the flip validates or negates the claim. Tailor fucks that up to make it easier for scum to claim whatever the hell they want, sheriff even, and make their "checked" player flip Mafia. Its really op op

Not to mention most setups give sheriff a negative utility, like a mafia player who is check immune or setups with a sheriff but no doctor. Not really the same.

[Quick]

The point has already been made that flips are one of the most important pieces of information and in most games, the only piece of information players can 100% trust. And it is from there that one can begin to read interactions and so on, so it is an absolutely critical component of the game. A tailored flip can completely change the calculus and reads of a town, including how one would reach Sheriff checks for example (ex. I got a check different than what this guy flipped, is there a Framer? Now this is a constant worry).

Sheriff alignment checks are on a completely different level from that. Again, Tailors are just uniquely powerful because they target graveyard flips (and sometimes investigative actions as well).

I see your point, I do. But I am not so adamant that the game MUST play a certain way. This game is subjective, so I feel if a role is on the table, than it is a known component to the game and the game changes because of it. Is the Queen in chess OP? Why should a Queen be a valid piece? You would argue that both players have a queen, granted. But the same concept can and should be applied to Mafia. This whole game is a game based on limited information, so to say a certain role is strictly forbidden is shitty. Like you and banana argue that a shitty player can destroy either team. Same concept can apply to hosts as well. Shitty Hosts make shitty games and to say this is different than a player being bad is not seeing the whole picture.

[DarknessB]

As an interruption to this debate, I still think it's hilarious that we're consider Tailor, a role that many veterans strongly dislike, as evident by this thread, for a Beginner's Game. I mean, I know we're a trolly site, but this seems like a lot even for our standards. The WIFOM alone would fuck with everyone's heads -- I just see no reason to worry beginners about unreliable graveyard flips in addition to picking up everything else about Forum Mafia.

[Quick]

Tailored flips are public. Sheriff checks are private. Not the same. A sheriff doesn't check someone and have a message go out saying "the checked player is Mafia!", that would be op - instead town has to decide whether or not to trust the sheriff's claim, and then the flip validates or negates the claim. Tailor fucks that up to make it easier for scum to claim whatever the hell they want, sheriff even, and make their "checked" player flip Mafia. Its really op op

Not to mention most setups give sheriff a negative utility, like a mafia player who is check immune or setups with a sheriff but no doctor. Not really the same.

OK I think I misunderstand what a sheriff does because I am pretty certain that a sheriff does get a message saying "this player is guilty" or "this player is innocent"? So you argue that sheriff is counterbalanced, same can and should be said for Tailor, that is my whole point. Not that Tailor is even a good role for many setups. It has its utility, and if properly implemented I don't see that problem with it.

[Quick]

As an interruption to this debate, I still think it's hilarious that we're consider Tailor, a role that many veterans strongly dislike, as evident by this thread, for a Beginner's Game. I mean, I know we're a trolly site, but this seems like a lot even for our standards. The WIFOM alone would fuck with everyone's heads -- I just see no reason to worry beginners about unreliable graveyard flips in addition to picking up everything else about Forum Mafia.

I can't speak for everyone, I sure as hell am NOT arguing that Tailor should be in a beginners game. It is a very advanced role and that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't even suggest most Host to even add the role because of its complexity, but it can be done.

[BananaCucho]

I see your point, I do. But I am not so adamant that the game MUST play a certain way. This game is subjective, so I feel if a role is on the table, than it is a known component to the game and the game changes because of it. Is the Queen in chess OP? Why should a Queen be a valid piece? You would argue that both players have a queen, granted. But the same concept can and should be applied to Mafia. This whole game is a game based on limited information, so to say a certain role is strictly forbidden is shitty. Like you and banana argue that a shitty player can destroy either team. Same concept can apply to hosts as well. Shitty Hosts make shitty games and to say this is different than a player being bad is not seeing the whole picture.

Your analogies don't apply at all. Mafia is a game about an informed minority going against an uninformed majority - there has to be some sort of way for the uninformed to become informed in order for them to win. And that's what flips provide, and when town lynches a scum the result shouldn't be a disadvantage to the town.

To use your chess analogy properly, if I take your queen I should then have higher chances of winning from then on out for taking a piece you were trying to protect since its powerful.

[BananaCucho]

OK I think I misunderstand what a sheriff does because I am pretty certain that a sheriff does get a message saying "this player is guilty" or "this player is innocent"? So you argue that sheriff is counterbalanced, same can and should be said for Tailor, that is my whole point. Not that Tailor is even a good role for many setups. It has its utility, and if properly implemented I don't see that problem with it.

I meant a message go out to all players. There isn't a host announcement that the player is inno/guilty, but rather a private message to the sheriff.

Tailor flips are host announced as the suited role and alignment

[Quick]

Your analogies don't apply at all. Mafia is a game about an informed minority going against an uninformed majority - there has to be some sort of way for the uninformed to become informed in order for them to win. And that's what flips provide, and when town lynches a scum the result shouldn't be a disadvantage to the town.

To use your chess analogy properly, if I take your queen I should then have higher chances of winning from then on out for taking a piece you were trying to protect since its powerful.

OK, you are repeating yourself and not at all taking my points into consideration, I'm done.

[Quick]

I meant a message go out to all players. There isn't a host announcement that the player is inno/guilty, but rather a private message to the sheriff.

Tailor flips are host announced as the suited role and alignment

This is my last comment about this topic in this thread, but you might as well rule out No-reveal and partial reveal as well.

/done

[BananaCucho]

OK, you are repeating yourself and not at all taking my points into consideration, I'm done.

I am refuting your points in a respectful way. If your argument can't hold up that's not because I'm not taking your points into consideration. Nice try though.

[DarknessB]

I can't speak for everyone, I sure as hell am NOT arguing that Tailor should be in a beginners game. It is a very advanced role and that needs to be taken into consideration. I don't even suggest most Host to even add the role because of its complexity, but it can be done.

Good, my opinion of you just went up -- at least we can agree on this much, Quick.

[Quick]

Good, my opinion of you just went up -- at least we can agree on this much, Quick.

Thanks :)

[SuperJack]

Oh my. Seems that I have alot to read 0-o...

[SuperJack]

Before I go anywhere I'll place my vote on BananaCucho I noticed she was making intense reviews of power roles.

[SuperJack]

Ok. NO Tailor.

[SuperJack]

No Mayor

[SuperJack]

DarknessB
How many players came from a history of Ban-Lists?



About recruitment
-I am more likely to show interest with people already on the forums

-I will be asking people who have been on the forums, and shown they are able to debate and discuss
for example Exeter350 who may be interested.
Each and every player does deserve a chance.

-I can not make sure that every player that I find will have high levels of quality. If I stuck to that rule, a beginner game would never be possible.



I know that people on this site want more quality players, but they do no appear from no-where. We have never had a flow of only high-quality players
And let me make this clear. This site is NOT an Elitist site so we will have players whom other people will consider not up to their high standards.
Which is one of the reasons for their to be a beginner game. To bring in a selection of people, some may be very good, some may be not. But at the end of the day it's to see if they enjoy FM games, and want to play more. Their play can be improved.


So let me make clear of the Starter games goal:
The Goal of Starter game is to bring in Player from the Mod to Forum Mafia.

The goal is not to
Improve their Forum mafia Player.
Only Find High Quality Players.

[Cryptonic]

I agree with that entire post

[Quick]

I agree with that entire post

SuperJack's?

[Cryptonic]

Yea, with SuperJack's.

[BananaCucho]

I agree with agreeing with that post

[Cryptonic]

I agree with agreeing with that post

good work here guys, we got the job done

[SuperJack]

So I am going go to go with something very similar to what Cryptonic Suggested.
A half way between the Mod and a Vanilla game, excluding certain chaotic roles.
The exact role list will be discussed by anyone who is not a mentor yet observing the game.

The next step is organising Mentors, and how they should enact their role.

[SuperJack]

Sheeeeit.

This just became valid again.

[theoneceko]

Sheeeeit.

This just became valid again.

owo

i rly like the 3 joat, 9 citizen, 3 mafia setup being used in MU champs and 3rd line butterfly. i think theyre both good for starters ovo.

also Frinckles ur my fav host so far.i loved the atmowosphere of that setuwup.

[deathworlds]

Any beginner game should fit the following criteria
1.) No "hidden/random roles"
Giving the players a clear, fully described setup with no hidden information will give players a good stepping stone to more complex setups.
2.) Very small power to vanilla role ratio
More night actions can lead to unnecessary confusion, also we need to establish that forum mafia isn't nearly as dependent on night actions as the mod is, this is not an (night) action game, this is a deception game.
3.) Simple power roles
Once again, keeping it simple will give players a sense of the fundamentals behind forum mafia. Serial killers, escorts, and sheriffs are O.K. Reality benders, disguisers, and Serial-Arson-Fathers are not.
4.) No "special mechanics"
Should be self-explanatory, don't want to overwhelm players, establish fundamentals, etc, etc.
5.) uninformed majority vs informed minority
This is the core behind mafia ever since it's conception, as fun as scumfest saves might be, they certainly don't make up the majority of games that are played.

[secondpassing]

I was re-reading the old beginnner signup threads and I was wondering if making a "noob-friendly" setup actually gets new players into the door. Like I'm good with having mentors, but couldn't the setup be crazy with odd mechanics? It may end up feeling more familiar to new players, especially those that come from the mod. Having a crazy setup automatically promotes setup discussion and is very impressive. My first or second game was a hidden RLVG setup where I shot myself in the foot thinking I was the wrong alignment. My sense of awe towards the host continues to this day toward those who make craziness happen and has contributed to keeping me around FM. Additionally, a good portion of new players find discussion hard enough as it is so a push to talk about the mechanics of the game is a push sorely needed.

[theoneceko]

owo i agree.

iwonder if a "begginer" setup is rlyneeded. i didn't mind either of the first two setups i playeduvu

[secondpassing]

owo i agree.

iwonder if a "begginer" setup is rlyneeded. i didn't mind either of the first two setups i playeduvu

Yeah. Insanity was a great setup. We could always run it again or run something similar then just add [beginners welcome] at the end of it or something.

[theoneceko]

however,a game just for nuwubies will makeus feel spesshul uvu. that'dprob be main reaoson i join one lol. it's like a wlelcoming party. uwu!!!

[theoneceko]

Yeah. Insanity was a great setup. We could always run it again or run something similar then just add [beginners welcome] at the end of it or something.

wedon't even need [beggginers welcum]that just soundscringe imo OWO

[theoneceko]

begginers shoulddecide for themselveswhether they want to play a setu.p. uwu

[deathworlds]

A couple of things we should consider when deciding what to do for a beginners game then, if we decide to have one at all.

A.) What our objective specifically is, or rather, what we hope to accomplish by hosting beginner games.
B.) What appeals to new players?

I believe our goal is to recruit players, and to have those players improve over time. If this isn't the case, we should clarify with each other.

My first game of forum mafia was S-FM 96: Gang Wars (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/21619-S-FM-96-Gang-Wars), it was an appealing setup to me, just because I was obsessed with scumfest saves at the time (and that was the only signups up when I wanted to join in) but it didn't really teach me much about mafia, or any of the principles behind it, it was pretty much just a night action game.
We were all new at some point, so why don't we share what appealed to us as new players? We can use that information to better craft a setup, instead of talking about the theory behind it.

[theoneceko]

myfisrt gmae was 3rd line buterfly. i loved scumhutning and all thePRs were cool uwu

uwuthat setup willalways ahvehe spessshul palce in my heart owo

[theoneceko]

myfisrt gmae was 3rd line buterfly. i loved scumhutning and all thePRs were cool uwu

uwuthat setup willalways ahvehe spessshul palce in my heart owo

@beeendnckles HLKDX!!!!!!!!

uwu

[secondpassing]

A couple of things we should consider when deciding what to do for a beginners game then, if we decide to have one at all.

A.) What our objective specifically is, or rather, what we hope to accomplish by hosting beginner games.
B.) What appeals to new players?

I believe our goal is to recruit players, and to have those players improve over time. If this isn't the case, we should clarify with each other.

My first game of forum mafia was S-FM 96: Gang Wars (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/21619-S-FM-96-Gang-Wars), it was an appealing setup to me, just because I was obsessed with scumfest saves at the time (and that was the only signups up when I wanted to join in) but it didn't really teach me much about mafia, or any of the principles behind it, it was pretty much just a night action game.
We were all new at some point, so why don't we share what appealed to us as new players? We can use that information to better craft a setup, instead of talking about the theory behind it.

A)I think our objective should be to entice all the people that go through the forums to give FM a shot
B)Crazy setups and a welcoming atmosphere

S-FM 170: Happy Fluffy Times (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/34078-S-FM-170-Happy-Fluffy-Times) was the first setup I ever played and as said, it was hidden. I think I read a forum game before that to get a feel for all the deception that could be done with words, and just jumped right in. I ended up losing my first few games, often because I was unable to provide town-tells and thus lynched early on. I got better by playing more, and listening and testing out the suggestions made by stronger players who would help me post-game. The human aspect of FM really appealed to me and finding ways to communicate and anti-communicate. It also helped that I love reading.

I don't really think the purpose of a beginner game is to get people good at FM, just to get people to play. People should get better, but first players need to enjoy playing, then they'll get to know us. And if they know us, they'll stick around.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

Yeah. Insanity was a great setup. We could always run it again or run something similar then just add [beginners welcome] at the end of it or something.

It was great. However, I'm not so sure it's representative of the normal games on the site... I tend to agree with Deathworlds on the criterias for newbie-friendly games.
Insert shameless advertisement for La Cosa Nostra, my setup, here

Throwing a suggestion out there, tell me if you like it.
Some hosts could explicitely state they accept mentors in their games. Mentors could help a new player get into the game. They obviously wouldn't be playing, and would know all the info their pupil knows, including his role. They could talk to the pupil privately about anything, but never post anything publicly. They would have to be approved privately by both the host and the pupil before officially being mentors in the game; they would need to have a good knowledge of the game, of the FM rules and of the setup. The info about mentor-pupil pairings approved by the Host would be publicly available.

[Marshmallow Marshall]

A couple of things we should consider when deciding what to do for a beginners game then, if we decide to have one at all.

A.) What our objective specifically is, or rather, what we hope to accomplish by hosting beginner games.
B.) What appeals to new players?

I believe our goal is to recruit players, and to have those players improve over time. If this isn't the case, we should clarify with each other.

My first game of forum mafia was S-FM 96: Gang Wars (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/21619-S-FM-96-Gang-Wars), it was an appealing setup to me, just because I was obsessed with scumfest saves at the time (and that was the only signups up when I wanted to join in) but it didn't really teach me much about mafia, or any of the principles behind it, it was pretty much just a night action game.
We were all new at some point, so why don't we share what appealed to us as new players? We can use that information to better craft a setup, instead of talking about the theory behind it.

A)
We want new players to enjoy their experience here. That's how they will stay with us in a good way, and how they will become a part of the community. Newbie games would help them knowing what they have to do and what they can do, while creating a fun and welcoming environment.

B)
My first game was S-FM Pulp Fiction, by Suntax. I stayed because of four things:
- Most important thing was that FM was the exact thing I was looking for, because people actually used logic, unlike...
- Stealthbomber16 was nice and helped me. Having someone who nicely took the time to explain me things a little bit without wearing "newbie gloves" was really good.
- Suntax's hosting skills (a lot of good roleplay, a lot of colors (yes, it's that dumb)).
- A beautiful setup. Although it might not have been the most stable and balanced in history, it was very refreshing for someone who came from the mod.


Basically, having newbie games with good setups (which is always good anyway) and creating a welcoming atmosphere is a good start. Having mentors would be the cherry on the top.

[Kovath]

My first game (if I remember correctly) was FM XI, Assassin's Creed themed.

It was a fun time. I also had no clue what I was doing. There's a balance.

[Ganelon]

My first game was Which Witch is Which

[SuperJack]

I'm just gonna ask them when enough people are signed up

[theoneceko]

I'm just gonna ask them when enough people are signed up

+1; i strowonglybelieve the newbies should decdiee for themeslseveles




uwu

[naz]

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/41256-S-FM-240-Instant-Mafia-IV

[theoneceko]

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/41256-S-FM-240-Instant-Mafia-IV

uwu

ACK +1 for the "low commitment"

partof the fun for me in FM is the intensity, but a shorter game could be considered

[Kovath]

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/41256-S-FM-240-Instant-Mafia-IV

Aye, Instant Mafia is a fun game even for non-newbies.

There's a reason it's been run a lot in the past.

[Ganelon]

My first game was Which Witch is Which
This is a decent game for players used to the mod

[Renegade]

Define "new player".

[Marshmallow Marshall]

My first game was Which Witch is Which
Ohh yes, that was a good one.

I'm just gonna ask them when enough people are signed up
Ask what to whom? I'm confused.

The first game I played was just a one day game where if a mafia was lynched, town wins. Town lynch, mafia win. Its easy because no mechanics to discuss and low commitment (i think 72 hours was what the game was given?) so its a nice intro and good way to get foot in the door uwu

Edit: instant mafia is the setup
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/41256-S-FM-240-Instant-Mafia-IV
It's a pretty good setup for training and having a short game. It however isn't fully representative of FM (game's lenght, basically nightless, no flip or vote count analysis). Still a good one to host relatively often, though.

Define "new player".

Someone who plays FM for the first or second time, I'd say?

[Marshmallow Marshall]

It was great. However, I'm not so sure it's representative of the normal games on the site... I tend to agree with Deathworlds on the criterias for newbie-friendly games.
Insert shameless advertisement for La Cosa Nostra, my setup, here

Throwing a suggestion out there, tell me if you like it.
Some hosts could explicitely state they accept mentors in their games. Mentors could help a new player get into the game. They obviously wouldn't be playing, and would know all the info their pupil knows, including his role. They could talk to the pupil privately about anything, but never post anything publicly. They would have to be approved privately by both the host and the pupil before officially being mentors in the game; they would need to have a good knowledge of the game, of the FM rules and of the setup. The info about mentor-pupil pairings approved by the Host would be publicly available.

:calix::calix::calix: B u m p . :calix::calix::calix:

[SuperJack]

I will ask them if they want simple game (Sheriff,Doc,Mafioso,Consort n Citizens.
A Taste of Sc2Mafia 1.0 i previously hosted (With most likely re-addressed the setup)
Or a taste of The Smiths.

That way they can either go simple/Familiar/Different

And I would ask the signees what they want,