Next starter game.

[SuperJack]

I'm looking to start another one. Just some questions.
7 or 9 player setup?
What improvements can be made from last game?
9999999999

[Calix]

I'm looking to start another one. Just some questions.
7 or 9 player setup?
What improvements can be made from last game?

- Depends on how much support you get.
- Have replacements on hand :) Jokes aside, you should make sure you have some backups.

[Gyrlander]

- Depends on how much support you get.
- Have replacements on hand :) Jokes aside, you should make sure you have some backups.

He had :)

[DarknessB]

Posting requirements and replacement of inactive players, greater communication with mentors about the role -- more training hydra than FAQ, some sort of optional preroll discussion about strategy, more clarification on how to ask host questions, replacements / reserves, I'll keep thinking...

[Calix]

He had :)

Is likkle Isaloser joining in this time? :)

[Frozen Angel]

I think the best way for this community to grow is to make a circular newbie (or as you call it starter) games thread with Matrix 6 setup.

You may let 3 more experienced people to play in each game (not limiting them to be town- setup must stay unbreakable) just to show newbies how stuff are happening here. Thats a simpler method to apply mentorship. this way even if the players lose to a very good experienced scum team they will learn so many stuff and you may run this more frequently.

I completly support this and will help you out in anyway you want.

[Gyrlander]

Is likkle Isaloser joining in this time? :)

I'll probably do, I was a reserve but no one left the other game :__(. And burn in hell, Catflix.

[Frozen Angel]

If its going to be runned for complete newbies who don't know whats mafia I suggest to apply a very simple setup (like matrix 6). This way they learn to scum haunt instead of playing a chess with their actions.

[MattZed]

I think the "newbie game with experienced players in it" idea Frozen is proposing should work.

For the record, I don't like Matrix6 as a setup. It's a bit swingy, with town having more of a disadvantage in the detective setups vs. the sheriff setups. Also seems to have confused some people last game as to how it works.

One thing to improve from last time is having replacements on standby; these don't need to be newbies, and probably should be the mentors frankly.

[DarknessB]

I think the best way for this community to grow is to make a circular newbie (or as you call it starter) games thread with Matrix 6 setup.

You may let 3 more experienced people to play in each game (not limiting them to be town- setup must stay unbreakable) just to show newbies how stuff are happening here. Thats a simpler method to apply mentorship. this way even if the players lose to a very good experienced scum team they will learn so many stuff and you may run this more frequently.

I completly support this and will help you out in anyway you want.

I understand Mafiascum goes with the "experienced player" concept in beginner games, but I'm not sure that's the mechanic we should be using here. From observing some of those games and talking to other players, I feel like that dynamic is a bit awkward and leads to sheeping of those players. I'd rather have the beginners take the volition to make things happen on their own (or not and see why that's bad) versus relying on three players who know what they're doing. I think that a well-run mentor program seems like a better option for our site in terms of the pureness of the experience for beginner players.

[Veri]

Have a host that actually cares about the game would help.

Delaying the EOD post that would literally take less than 3 minutes to write/copy for 24 hours or just ignoring when town loses because a player is afk 2 out of 3 days isn't what I'd call doing a good job as host.

I also got the impression that most of the mentors didn't help out enough - Mesk for example didn't even get the setup and that's something you should discuss with your mentor imo. Encourage the players and mentors to interact with each other during the game.

And make sure that all the players are newbies - Panda did have quite some experience and I think if she had been scum (and had actually participated in the game), town really wouldn't have had a chance.

[Calix]

I think the "newbie game with experienced players in it" idea Frozen is proposing should work.

For the record, I don't like Matrix6 as a setup. It's a bit swingy, with town having more of a disadvantage in the detective setups vs. the sheriff setups. Also seems to have confused some people last game as to how it works.

One thing to improve from last time is having replacements on standby; these don't need to be newbies, and probably should be the mentors frankly.

I think trying out the next game with 2-3 experienced players would be a decent experiment, just to see how people take to it. No reason for us to only use one mentoring path.
SuperJack, I can link you to other basic 7-9 Player setups if you get a demand for them.

[Forum Mafia GM]

The best way to learn to play Forum Mafia is by playing with people more experienced than you. When you get fooled in a game and make mistakes, you remember for the future. You increase your arsenal with their playstyles and learn how to question by being questioned.

[Frozen Angel]

The point is there shouldn't be a god in game. thats why they add 3 to make sure 1 of the experianced players are town. Their existansce inside the game make the newbie slots to feel their on their own. The hydra mentorship is good but thats making newbies shipping more experianced. and the experienced people will be more involved in game which help newbies to see how this thing must be done.

everything has its pros and cons but if you want it to be more frequently with a happily mentorship system (which is not bothering your mentors becuase its like a burden to play a game without being in it over and over again) and if you want newbies to see how mentors actually interact including more experianced inside the game is beneficial.

But as you said the burden of proficiency or sheeping might be advertised which is completly on the mentors in the game (as one of them is town obviously)

[DarknessB]

Experienced players is a terrible idea which many people who have tried out MS beginners games hate. Good luck to them if Calix were one of them and rolled scum. It'd be a game of sheeping the loud veteran without any thought. It's a massive conflict of interest to be playing in a game with your own wincon and trying to teach at the same time. I want no part of this terrible idea and think it will wreck the beginner program.

[DarknessB]

With three of them, then the game becomes watching the loud veterans argue and sheeping ones of the three. It just totally destroys the environment of everyone picking up the game together and encourages passivity among the new players. They can sit back and let the vets hash it out, then lay down their votes.

[Frozen Angel]

Experienced players is a terrible idea which many people who have tried out MS beginners games hate. Good luck to them if Calix were one of them and rolled scum. It'd be a game of sheeping the loud veteran without any thought. It's a massive conflict of interest to be playing in a game with your own wincon and trying to teach at the same time. I want no part of this terrible idea and think it will wreck the beginner program.

The reason so many people can't play in MS games is becuase of its long timeline. I never got the impression someone hate the game becuase of a experienced player in it.

[DarknessB]

I would be fine, however, with players with a little bit of experience playing these games as a halfway compromise, like Gyrlander, AIVION, etc. That makes more sense than putting people in who could conduct the entire daytime chat by themselves.

[DarknessB]

The reason so many people can't play in MS games is becuase of its long timeline. I never got the impression someone hate the game becuase of a experienced player in it.

Firebringer, among others, specifically mentioned that he found the mechanic to be odd and offputting given the conflict of interest. This was a while ago however when he first picked up MS so it's possible his views have changed.

[Calix]

I would be fine, however, with players with a little bit of experience playing these games as a halfway compromise, like Gyrlander, AIVION, etc. That makes more sense than putting people in who could conduct the entire daytime chat by themselves.

Gyrlander and AIVION are still new though. I was under the impression that Gyrlander was joining as a legitimate new player.

[Frozen Angel]

With three of them, then the game becomes watching the loud veterans argue and sheeping ones of the three. It just totally destroys the environment of everyone picking up the game together and encourages passivity among the new players. They can sit back and let the vets hash it out, then lay down their votes.

That happens if you assume newbies are sheeps. They will try to grasp the idea. first mislynch? second mislynch ? oh god they will try to win the game and don't fall in the third trap.

There are so little games I lost as mafia. I shouldn't be mafia? The experiance of losing to a veteran mafia is way way way more valuable than losing to a newbie mafia becuase you don't grasp the idea of game.

[Gyrlander]

From what I saw, newbie players know how to play, more or less like me. I won't be a difficulty for them as Calix said until she teaches me the ways.

PS: Annd I was a replacement, if you didn't notice (A secret one :P)

[Calix]

While there is the issue of conflicting interests with having 'veteran' players in the game, I feel that the mentors would be more detached and apathetic if they are on the side-lines.

The first game had those types: TDL didn't read the game, while Banana didn't mentor until Mesk was at L-1 and didn't explain the setup properly.

[Frozen Angel]

I would be fine, however, with players with a little bit of experience playing these games as a halfway compromise, like Gyrlander, AIVION, etc. That makes more sense than putting people in who could conduct the entire daytime chat by themselves.

yeah MS put people in 3 categories , they put one IC , 2 SE's and the rest will be filled with newcomers.

[DarknessB]

Gyrlander and AIVION are still new though. I was under the impression that Gyrlander was joining as a legitimate new player.

Both of them have played 3-4 or more games -- don't consider that to be particularly new. But fine, could have players like Secondpassing or Funce who have logged a few more games, but who would like to work on their scumhunting, etc.

[DarknessB]

While there is the issue of conflicting interests with having 'veteran' players in the game, I feel that the mentors would be more detached and apathetic if they are on the side-lines.

The first game had those types: TDL didn't read the game, while Banana didn't mentor until Mesk was at L-1 and didn't explain the setup properly.

That's more of an issue with the instructions and communications to the mentors than anything else. Solicit ones who will be active and tell them from the outset that this is like a real game in terms of time commitment.

[Frozen Angel]

even if you don't include more experianced people in game , the point for being a mentor is not to make the reads and guide the slot. its to answer their questions and learn them the tricks. which make newbies more detached from the game becuase they see someone in the background who they expect to be more valuable than this.

If mentors lead the slot newbies won't try anything on their own.

If they don't newbies feel detached and lost and they can't learn as much as playing with veterans.

[DarknessB]

even if you don't include more experianced people in game , the point for being a mentor is not to make the reads and guide the slot. its to answer their questions and learn them the tricks. which make newbies more detached from the game becuase they see someone in the background who they expect to be more valuable than this.

If mentors lead the slot newbies won't try anything on their own.

If they don't newbies feel detached and lost and they can't learn as much as playing with veterans.

I honestly disagree. I think the purpose is to be in the trenches with the newbies and walk them through how to think about scumhunting and how they might approach things. I feel like the more passive mentor approach was what caused a lot of the poor play in this game. Not one mentor other than myself warned against pre-flip associations which was half the reason the scumhunting was so dreadful. Also, given we are the mentors, mentees aren't going to feel as comfortable approaching us unless we make it clear that we are a partner and invested in their success. Being passive is why RL mentor programs fail too -- I'd argue that more active mentors (not posting for them, but getting into the weeds actively), would have taught them more than detached mentors did this game.

[Frozen Angel]

I honestly disagree. I think the purpose is to be in the trenches with the newbies and walk them through how to think about scumhunting and how they might approach things. I feel like the more passive mentor approach was what caused a lot of the poor play in this game. Not one mentor other than myself warned against pre-flip associations which was half the reason the scumhunting was so dreadful. Also, given we are the mentors, mentees aren't going to feel as comfortable approaching us unless we make it clear that we are a partner and invested in their success. Being passive is why RL mentor programs fail too -- I'd argue that more active mentors (not posting for them, but getting into the weeds actively), would have taught them more than detached mentors did this game.

The point is I'm sure your mentee would learn more if she was playing with you and you told that in game. This way they can challenge the main ideas of a mafia game and learn them on their own.

Teaching is a very sensitive job. If you teach them how should they resolve the problem with giving them the solution they will get challenged again later if they face the same scenario with different variables. But if you put them in scenario teaching them to learn by experiance from their mistakes they will learn how to think. If they do they can solve any other similar problem later on.

[Frozen Angel]

But thats just point of views.

It's my view as a teacher.

[DarknessB]

The point is I'm sure your mentee would learn more if she was playing with you and you told that in game. This way they can challenge the main ideas of a mafia game and learn them on their own.

Teaching is a very sensitive job. If you teach them how should they resolve the problem with giving them the solution they will get challenged again later if they face the same scenario with different variables. But if you put them in scenario teaching them to learn by experiance from their mistakes they will learn how to think. If they do they can solve any other similar problem later on.

That's a HUGE conflict of interest though. If we're both in the same game, we don't know if we're the same alignment. If I'm scum and know she's Town, then I'm either not playing to my win condition by helping her read players or slots, or I'm deliberately misleading her. It just doesn't work to do in-game mentoring in a game where everyone is against each other.

[Cryptonic]

That's a HUGE conflict of interest though. If we're both in the same game, we don't know if we're the same alignment. If I'm scum and know she's Town, then I'm either not playing to my win condition by helping her read players or slots, or I'm deliberately misleading her. It just doesn't work to do in-game mentoring in a game where everyone is against each other.

And that's Mafia. If you're blindly following someone in the game, even if they are your mentor, then that is a great learning experience to not be a sheep. They should be questioning everything, noticing contradictions, ect.

[DarknessB]

And that's Mafia. If you're blindly following someone in the game, even if they are your mentor, then that is a great learning experience to not be a sheep. They should be questioning everything, noticing contradictions, ect.

I'd rather not set up beginners to fail like that. If you give someone a mentor, you're basically saying you should be at least someone deferential to this person. Mentors in-game who might be secretly against you just sounds like a giant mind-fuck to the newbies.

[Frozen Angel]

You both are trying to apear town.

if your town and she's town she may learn your honest way of thinking but she will challenge it instead of accepting it.

if your mafia and she's town she learn that she can't just trust people appearing town like that and will get the puzzling grasp of mafia even after failing. or she will catch you and that will be her most enjoyable moment in game to solve the puzzle.

If your both mafia she learn how to be manipulative and learn to put thoughtful townie like posts. and will learn the tactics of manipulation from a experienced teammate who will help her if she get in trap.

If your town and she is mafia she has a great challenge to overcome and I know most of the newbies will do it (I basically witnessed more newbie scum teams overcoming the town veterans than vise versa and I'm sure about it). And the game will be extremely fun for them

[Frozen Angel]

I'd rather not set up beginners to fail like that. If you give someone a mentor, you're basically saying you should be at least someone deferential to this person. Mentors in-game who might be secretly against you just sounds like a giant mind-fuck to the newbies.

the game is a giant mind fuck anyway. Let them to get challenged fast is the best way they will be more active intelligent selfaware players later.

[Calix]

I'd rather not set up beginners to fail like that. If you give someone a mentor, you're basically saying you should be at least someone deferential to this person. Mentors in-game who might be secretly against you just sounds like a giant mind-fuck to the newbies.

You act like the newbies aren't supposed to make mistakes...but that's the entire point of a newbie game. What better way of learning the rule of "don't trust the loud/ experienced person" than by actually being duped by one?

It's not a mind-fuck. It's part of the game.

[Frozen Angel]

and I must mention that don't think it's a very easy situation for veterans participating in game. They will be challenged for proficiency definietly.

[Cryptonic]

I also agree that making mistakes is the best way to learn. When something memorable happens, either thru amazement or embarrassment, you remember that. That lesson will stick with you and prevent you from making the same mistake twice. If you are a sheep in a game and just following the lead of a loud person, and you end up losing cause that loud person was scum.. Maybe next time you're going to question this loud person, instead of sitting back and following.

I do agree that a mentor shouldn't specifically be in a game to help a specific person, but veterans can mentor people in the same game by offering advice like "We should be asking questions about x" and things like that so players know what to look for.

That's just my opinion, though. I feel the best way to learn something is by failing. You don't get better at anything by competing with people worse than you. This doesn't just go for FM, it goes for all aspects of life.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Please put a Judge role. And when He call court, host post the Song of Phoenix Wright v)o.o)>

[Veri]

I agree with Cryptonic and DarknessB.. Having a mentor in the same game seems pointless to me.
If you can't trust your mentor, where is the difference between your mentor and any other veteran?

It might be true that you learn faster the hard way - but you don't need a mentor to betray you then. Other, more experienced players can help out the newer ones without having one specific mentor assigned. Having a mentor in the game and finding out that he (who was supposed to help me) just betrayed me and basically took advantage of me trusting him because he's my mentor would just demotivate me and I probably wouldn't wanna play another game then.

I think it should be either newbies and vets mixed without mentors or mentors who aren't playing themselves - you just expect different things from a mentor than from just another player. Getting deceived by someone who is supposed to be helping you isn't part of the game.

[DarknessB]

I agree with Cryptonic and DarknessB.. Having a mentor in the same game seems pointless to me.
If you can't trust your mentor, where is the difference between your mentor and any other veteran?

It might be true that you learn faster the hard way - but you don't need a mentor to betray you then. Other, more experienced players can help out the newer ones without having one specific mentor assigned. Having a mentor in the game and finding out that he (who was supposed to help me) just betrayed me and basically took advantage of me trusting him because he's my mentor would just demotivate me and I probably wouldn't wanna play another game then.

I think it should be either newbies and vets mixed without mentors or mentors who aren't playing themselves - you just expect different things from a mentor than from just another player. Getting deceived by someone who is supposed to be helping you isn't part of the game.

This is what I was trying to get at in a far more articulate way, lol. Mafia is already difficult enough for new players in terms of knowing who to trust and who to scumread. On top of that, you would be adding a host / game assigned mentor who is ostensibly supposed to help the new player, but who might secretly be against them and undermining them? You've just made the game even harder for the new player since they don't know whether to trust any other player OR their game assigned mentor. Why give them another level of WIFOM to hash through? A mentor who might not be 100% on your side isn't going to facilitate open and candid conversation. To be fair, you'd have to put down as a disclaimer (PLEASE NOTE THAT YOUR MENTOR MAY NOT BE YOUR SAME ALIGNMENT AND YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DECISION OF WHETHER / HOW MUCH TO TRUST HIM OR HER). At that point, any newbie with any common sense is not going to use the mentor that much given the risk of the mentor having a hidden agenda.

Veri is completely right -- if you insist on the vet / newbie combination games, assigned in-game mentors are an unnecessary and terrible idea, which will just make things more difficult for the newcomers. They will also risk alienating new players -- who wants to be betrayed by someone the game itself has assigned to help you? That's not a part of Mafia.

[Frozen Angel]

I agree with Cryptonic and DarknessB.. Having a mentor in the same game seems pointless to me.
If you can't trust your mentor, where is the difference between your mentor and any other veteran?

It might be true that you learn faster the hard way - but you don't need a mentor to betray you then. Other, more experienced players can help out the newer ones without having one specific mentor assigned. Having a mentor in the game and finding out that he (who was supposed to help me) just betrayed me and basically took advantage of me trusting him because he's my mentor would just demotivate me and I probably wouldn't wanna play another game then.

I think it should be either newbies and vets mixed without mentors or mentors who aren't playing themselves - you just expect different things from a mentor than from just another player. Getting deceived by someone who is supposed to be helping you isn't part of the game.

the experinaced players in your game are not your mentors.

No newbie need a mentor to teach them stuff. They only need to see the ideas and try them out on their own.

[DarknessB]

the experinaced players in your game are not your mentors.

No newbie need a mentor to teach them stuff. They only need to see the ideas and try them out on their own.

With all due respect, I've heard that many of the new players felt unsupported by their mentors and could have used far more assistance than they received. I understand your philosophy on this question, but the actual feedback that has been received is completely the opposite.

[Frozen Angel]

as I said its just my idea. not forcing anyone to implement it. but the way last game was may lead in background fight that just make newbies confused.

"Mentors" are not god. they basically don't know much more than the newbies beside the old ideas and tactics used in a game. they can't use them as mentors and they can't show newbies how they work.

Newbies must make their own playstyle on their own.

[Frozen Angel]

With all due respect, I've heard that many of the new players felt unsupported by their mentors and could have used far more assistance than they received. I understand your philosophy on this question, but the actual feedback that has been received is completely the opposite.

If they want someone else to play with them their better not playing at all. If they have questions they may receive an answer.

thats how cruel this life is.

[DarknessB]

as I said its just my idea. not forcing anyone to implement it. but the way last game was may lead in background fight that just make newbies confused.

"Mentors" are not god. they basically don't know much more than the newbies beside the old ideas and tactics used in a game. they can't use them as mentors and they can't show newbies how they work.

Newbies must make their own playstyle on their own.

Of course, but given the experience disparity between mentors and mentees, mentees are often hesitant to reach out / be pushy with their mentors unless a good rapport is struck first. As in, mentors are the ones helping mentees, so mentees don't feel like they should be as pushy unless the mentor has made it very clear that all annoying questions are welcomed, please message me as much as you want, etc. This is the same dynamic with real-world mentors in academic / job related contexts. If the mentors aren't very proactive and don't reach out, the relationship is just one on paper and doesn't help the mentee at all. Given we all want to help new players, that could be / should have been a bigger emphasis than it was during the beginner game.

[DarknessB]

If they want someone else to play with them their better not playing at all. If they have questions they may receive an answer.

thats how cruel this life is.

The entire point of being a mentor was to help the mentees though. Making them feel like they have you come to you doesn't facilitate that help, especially when there is an experience disparity and you are doing them the favor. In real life, everyone hates mentors who don't reach out -- because the mentee isn't going to say anything (being afraid of stepping on the mentor's toes) and will instead feel like the mentor doesn't want to help. I've seen this in many context (either first-hand or by hearing about other's experiences).

[Frozen Angel]

My point is It's not like teaching someone how to bike. they need to test tactics to learn. You can't teach experience. you may show it though.

I'm not saying the mentor mentee has no pros but I have critical issues with it becuase I know

1 - some mentors won't do anything
2 - some mentors will just give their reads to their mentee and play the game for them

and mentees will just be outten in a gladiator field without knowing anything about anything! some will be puppets some will be extremely confused and they won't learn so much.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm a teacher I know how to teach.

yes you must answer to your student.

You must be active and you must feel responsible. thats not my point.

I'm saying in this game they shouldn't have someone they fully trust who is doing the job for them. I feel its damaging the main idea of the game. If you want to have newbies who can face the challenges and the no-trust nature of the game you must put them in the same situation sinsce the start.

[DarknessB]

I'm a teacher I know how to teach.

yes you must answer to your student.

You must be active and you must feel responsible. thats not my point.

I'm saying in this game they shouldn't have someone they fully trust who is doing the job for them. I feel its damaging the main idea of the game. If you want to have newbies who can face the challenges and the no-trust nature of the game you must put them in the same situation sinsce the start.

Yes, but there's a halfway balance to strike there. You don't teach someone to drive without showing them how to adjust their mirrors, telling them about the pedals, or how to switch gears. There's a danger in just putting the student behind the wheel and saying nothing. That's what I think happened here in many cases. I'm not saying play the game for the mentees, but often times, they could have used a nudge in the right direction which either came too late or not at all.

[DarknessB]

My point is It's not like teaching someone how to bike. they need to test tactics to learn. You can't teach experience. you may show it though.

I'm not saying the mentor mentee has no pros but I have critical issues with it becuase I know

1 - some mentors won't do anything
2 - some mentors will just give their reads to their mentee and play the game for them

and mentees will just be outten in a gladiator field without knowing anything about anything! some will be puppets some will be extremely confused and they won't learn so much.

Honestly, I don't think anyone did #2 or anywhere close. From what I've heard, I was the most active mentor by far and Veri was coming up with her own reads (like pegging Dougler as scum as of Day 1 -- much as many vets would have done due to his inactivity and vote-and-run approach) and writing her own posts -- we just discussed what she thought at regular intervals and bounced thoughts off each other. #1 was far more the problem and that could be fixed by having the game host define the role of mentor more clearly or try to solicit mentors who are more on board with an active vs. passive approach.

[Sino]

I also agree on the fact that you shouldn't have a mentor playing the game with you, for already mentionned reasons.

Now, about my own experience of the beginners game, i feel like newbies only need the mentor to get started in the game, so only d1.

They need to help them getting started, feel comfortable d1, and let them play the game by themselves.

Day 1 was when i really felt uncomfortable, having no idea what to say when accused doesn't really make the game fun, but once i reached d2, i really had my fun arguing with PTB.

Also, about my interaction with Frozen Angel, it's true we didn't talk that much, maybe i needed a bit more interaction with her d1, but now i feel like i've learned some things by myself, so i can really understand her point of view about this.

[Frozen Angel]

I said its not like a bike and your giving me examples for that *facepalm* no one needs a mentor to deduce, They need to start deducing when they see others are doing that as well.

No nudge. Nudging is the worst gift you can give them. If they don't build their own playstyle and just repeat your way of playing they will fail every single game after this , I can promise you that.

Its not something can be fixed by putting more active mentors. There shouldn't be a mentor in the first place. I suggest the existence of a white beard (maybe the mod himself) who answers everyone without guiding them.helping them to stand on their feet without pushing them forward .

Including experienced people in the game instead of putting them in shadows help the game to be more competitive, If experienced players are nice who challenge each other and newbies they will start doing the same and they will learn and make their own playstyle.

[Frozen Angel]

I also agree on the fact that you shouldn't have a mentor playing the game with you, for already mentionned reasons.

Now, about my own experience of the beginners game, i feel like newbies only need the mentor to get started in the game, so only d1.

They need to help them getting started, feel comfortable d1, and let them play the game by themselves.

Day 1 was when i really felt uncomfortable, having no idea what to say when accused doesn't really make the game fun, but once i reached d2, i really had my fun arguing with PTB.

Also, about my interaction with Frozen Angel, it's true we didn't talk that much, maybe i needed a bit more interaction with her d1, but now i feel like i've learned some things by myself, so i can really understand her point of view about this.

I was trying to be there with you helping you understand what is really worth pushing and whats not without stating my reads to you. Not sure how successful was I :(

[DarknessB]

I said its not like a bike and your giving me examples for that *facepalm* no one needs a mentor to deduce, They need to start deducing when they see others are doing that as well.

No nudge. Nudging is the worst gift you can give them. If they don't build their own playstyle and just repeat your way of playing they will fail every single game after this , I can promise you that.

Its not something can be fixed by putting more active mentors. There shouldn't be a mentor in the first place. I suggest the existence of a white beard (maybe the mod himself) who answers everyone without guiding them.helping them to stand on their feet without pushing them forward .

Including experienced people in the game instead of putting them in shadows help the game to be more competitive, If experienced players are nice who challenge each other and newbies they will start doing the same and they will learn and make their own playstyle.

We're obviously going to need to agree to disagree on this. Not everyone learns in the way that you've described, nor the way that I have. Everyone is different with some people preferring a more active approach and some people preferring to explore on their own. One size does not fit all. I don't happen to agree with your philosophy, nor you with mine, but that's a good thing, because there will be people who learn better under either approach.

P.S. We had a "white beard" in this game -- that was SuperJack, the game host. Hosts in games here are supposed to answer questions put in green to them and players can PM them with mechanics or other non-strategy-related game issues. That having been said, I think SuperJack wasn't as active with that as needed at times -- for example, issues involving interpretation of the matrix and reputation bars, but that's something to strive for more in future games.

[Calix]

Have you two ever just considered running BOTH types of games? Not everyone operates the same way. Case in point, the messages from Veri and Sino in this thread.

Have a game where the new players get a private mentor, then have the next game be one where you play with 2-3 veteran players. That's considerably more flexible for the player base than one-size-fits-all.

[Frozen Angel]

That's why I said its my and only mine view probably.

I beleive no idea is wrong by its own.they may seem weaker or stronger but being wrong is simply wrong.

[DarknessB]

Have you two ever just considered running BOTH types of games? Not everyone operates the same way. Case in point, the messages from Veri and Sino in this thread.

Have a game where the new players get a private mentor, then have the next game be one where you play with 2-3 veteran players. That's considerably more flexible for the player base than one-size-fits-all.

Let's just make S-FM Watermeloann the official beginner game -- that satisfies all parties.

In all seriousness though, I would be fine with trying out both and seeing what works better. We could even alternate them just because some people are going to like one style more than the other. I still maintain that the veteran players in the newcomer-veteran games should not be sharks, but more slightly experienced players looking to improve themselves.

[Frozen Angel]

May I have a link to the setup?

[Calix]

May I have a link to the setup?

http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/36145-S-FM-Matrix6-(Beginners-Game)

[Calix]

Oh, if you meant a link to S-FM Watermeloann, that was a joke post.

That S-FM was completely troll.

[Veri]

There shouldn't be a mentor in the first place.

Just curious, if you think like that, why did you agree to be a mentor in the first place?


I know for a fact that Sino was very overwhelmed d1 and told me that he doesn't want to play another FM game after this one. That opinion might have changed d2 as he got a bit more comfortable with the game but he didn't enjoy d1 which imo was because he just didn't know what to say.

Sure, he learned something by doing it by himself but so did I - in fact I think I would have learned even more than some of the other players if I hadn't died d1 because I was more active from the beginning thanks to my mentor encouraging me.


I'm not saying having a mentor is the only right way, but if you assign mentors they should also help, at least in the very beginning.

[DarknessB]

May I have a link to the setup?

That was actually a joke re: S-FM Watermeloann. That setup was the ridiculously convoluted thing ever. If you really want to see the gore:
http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33199-S-FM-162-Watermeloann

Here's the setup, lol:



2 Mafia
- Drug Dealer: Drug a player at night. They are prevented from using any 2 letters of the alphabet for the rest of the game. They also trip such balls that they are unable to explain what is happening.
- Manipulator: Force a player to act on another player. You also have 2 charges of manipulating the host. You may activate this during the day and for the rest of the day all questions will be ignored until the end of day. At that time any you have submitted answers for will be answered that way. These answers will never be corrected.

8 Town
- Tailor: Dress a player in any color of clothing. You may choose between white, black, gray, red, green, yellow, purple, orange, brown, and pink. You are in blue.
- Clock Maker: At night you decide the order of night actions for the following night
- Lookout: You watch your target from your house, observing things about their night.
- Hero of Time: You may travel through time to any night and check a player for what happened to them that night. You may also travel into the future to a time after you die to make a single post. You must submit this action (picking the day) before you die.
- Donald Trump: Everyone else is a loser. You ruin peoples evenings and prevent them from doing things. You also earn money nightly that you can use to purchase items.
- Citizen: the last citizen earns a gun and a vest
- Citizen
- Citizen

1 Evil
- Archeologist: using https://geoguessr.com you must get a score of 12,500 or higher in a 5 round single player mode and submit the screenshot of all 5 location scores and the total for the night. If you do you earn an item at night that will allow unique actions.

1 Benign
- Watermeloann: You have made a very bad name to yourself

Win Conditions
Survive to see the Town eliminated
Survive to see the Mafia and Evil eliminated
Survive to see the Town eliminated
Have every player alive in the game lynch you in a single day, this ends the game

lynch mechanics
- lynhces can not occur until a code word is said
the code words are
I, have, made, a, very, bad, name, to, and myself. They will cycle.
Days will continue until a lynch occurs and at each 24 hour interval if the codeword was said the hammer vote will be plugged in

special mechanics
- if Drug Dealer sends the same person drugs 3 times it will cause an event where everyone except him is given an anonymous account for the day
- the Tailor's clothes are immune to changing account
- I havent locked down Archeologist items yet but they will be growing in insanity
- Trump items will be real world items found on amazon. if they can be used in the game they will be allowed to be. 1 per night
- after the game has dwindled to 6 players 3 random players will be returned to the game on anonymous accounts
- after the game has fallen to 3 original players 2 more random players will be returned to the game on anonymous accounts
- after the game has fallen to only 1 remaining original player 1 more random player will be returned to the game
- Watermeloann will not be in the returning players. However you, Orpz, may enter the game as Watermeloann if you want should this occur and you random properly :D

Some minor changes were made as we went along to keep things in line.

Noteable changes made pre-game were

Clue style grave making the Tailor a Coroner instead of a weird Lookout/Hero of Time interacting Fruit Vendor
Watermeloann had his Green hat on
Roles being less than specific when it came to alignment and win condition
Watermeloann could ask and receive his appropriate win condition.
Role cards being non-uniform
Quoting feedback was allowed
PMs were allowed
No Last Wills
Guns and Vests were given leeway. Day shooting was going to be allowed and Vests would be stronger like to avoid lynches.
Anon accounts could not claim their old account and didn't keep the clothes from Tailor since Tailor was buffed
Clarification that Town does win together, not just by living to the win.


Noteable progress made as game went on to keep things reasonable

Quoting role cards was made acceptable
Lynch was activated the moment I realized it was triggered
Guns and Vests were actually made even better as Frog suggested he would give away his vest and I had no rule for it being illegal
The second and third player return mechanic were scrapped to give the game a decent end time. Having 3 more people enter the game would have extended it further, and by the point it activated everyone's body was ready for a finale.
The Lynch requirement didn't cycle but ended instead
By nature of how they operated Donald Trump's Store and the Archeologist's items were made as we went. I had pre-game ideas for the Archeologist, but I ran out.
I felt bad that Town randomed into 3 Town on the first revive but the balance worked out in the end with a 4-1 at the time of the rule removal. Bringing back scum at that point would have been an auto-town-loss imo.

[NoctiZ]

Honestly I don't think these kind of mentor games are really needed.

When I was addicted to the sc2mafia mod I joined the forums shortly after I started playing. I really wanted to play and read a lot of past S-FMs to gather experience and I was also warmly welcomed by Bunny and I participated in one of her games as my first game. She answered questions I had and other than that I just tried to play the best I could. I wasn't good of course but I had fun and kept playing and found my own style relatively fast. I think making your own experiences is very important.

It makes sense to have a mentor that can explain abbreviations or other technical terms to you but I don't think mentors should be in the game you're playing. My fiddy cents.

[Sino]

Just curious, if you think like that, why did you agree to be a mentor in the first place?


I know for a fact that Sino was very overwhelmed d1 and told me that he doesn't want to play another FM game after this one. That opinion might have changed d2 as he got a bit more comfortable with the game but he didn't enjoy d1 which imo was because he just didn't know what to say.

Sure, he learned something by doing it by himself but so did I - in fact I think I would have learned even more than some of the other players if I hadn't died d1 because I was more active from the beginning thanks to my mentor encouraging me.


I'm not saying having a mentor is the only right way, but if you assign mentors they should also help, at least in the very beginning.

Well, that's why i said mentor should really help mentees get started, we would want the mentee to have fun and keep playing by himself once he reached that important point.

[Frozen Angel]

Just curious, if you think like that, why did you agree to be a mentor in the first place?


I know for a fact that Sino was very overwhelmed d1 and told me that he doesn't want to play another FM game after this one. That opinion might have changed d2 as he got a bit more comfortable with the game but he didn't enjoy d1 which imo was because he just didn't know what to say.

Sure, he learned something by doing it by himself but so did I - in fact I think I would have learned even more than some of the other players if I hadn't died d1 because I was more active from the beginning thanks to my mentor encouraging me.


I'm not saying having a mentor is the only right way, but if you assign mentors they should also help, at least in the very beginning.

I'm not saying having someone who can answer your questions and giving you ideas about the game theory is bad.

I'm saying having someone else playing with you and pushing you toward a certain point is bad.

I did my best to never give out any readlist to sino or asking him directly to do anything in game. I answered all his questions and we talked about his concerns. I warned him when I sensed his logic is wrong and stuff like that, (but tbh we didn't talk much) and i'm sure thats all a mentor must do.

and I'm sure you guys are not seeing mentorship like that.

[DarknessB]

Honestly I don't think these kind of mentor games are really needed.

When I was addicted to the sc2mafia mod I joined the forums shortly after I started playing. I really wanted to play and read a lot of past S-FMs to gather experience and I was also warmly welcomed by Bunny and I participated in one of her games as my first game. She answered questions I had and other than that I just tried to play the best I could. I wasn't good of course but I had fun and kept playing and found my own style relatively fast. I think making your own experiences is very important.

It makes sense to have a mentor that can explain abbreviations or other technical terms to you but I don't think mentors should be in the game you're playing. My fiddy cents.

You were also joining FM in the golden age of SC2Mafia where the mod was still under development and we had tons of players. We're having a little bit of a tougher time now with map development / SC2 done and a lot fewer FM players around.

[Frozen Angel]

Honestly I don't think these kind of mentor games are really needed.

When I was addicted to the sc2mafia mod I joined the forums shortly after I started playing. I really wanted to play and read a lot of past S-FMs to gather experience and I was also warmly welcomed by Bunny and I participated in one of her games as my first game. She answered questions I had and other than that I just tried to play the best I could. I wasn't good of course but I had fun and kept playing and found my own style relatively fast. I think making your own experiences is very important.

It makes sense to have a mentor that can explain abbreviations or other technical terms to you but I don't think mentors should be in the game you're playing. My fiddy cents.

not mentors. veteran players who are just playing their game. They just need to know its a newbie game and they need to explain their actions more.

[NoctiZ]

You were also joining FM in the golden age of SC2Mafia where the mod was still under development and we had tons of players. We're having a little bit of a tougher time now with map development / SC2 done and a lot fewer FM players around.

True, but games were filled with experienced players either way. I see no difference. People who want to commit will find a way to do so and keep playing forum games. Offering people to mentor you to give advice or explanations is a good idea, but not in the same game. I see no good reason for that.

[NoctiZ]

not mentors. veteran players who are just playing their game. They just need to know its a newbie game and they need to explain their actions more.

I find that troublesome. Are veteran players intentionally playing worse to explain their play to newbies? It makes more sense to have real mentors on the sideline who can give their thoughts on the game and I mean as if they were playing the game but letting the mentee do all the work.

I see it working best when the mentee does most of the leg work and the mentor gives advice on other possibilities the mentee hasn't considered. This would require regular communication between mentor and mentee during a game and a mentor interested enough to read a game.

Only problem I see would be a lack of volunteers because the mentors could not play in the game in my scenario.

[Frozen Angel]

The point is to have a simpler game that force people to scum haunt instead of playing a chess of night actions and confusing mechanics. to have newbies gathered together so neither feel left alone in a confusing dark universe

[NoctiZ]

The point is to have a simpler game that force people to scum haunt instead of playing a chess of night actions and confusing mechanics. to have newbies gathered together so neither feel left alone in a confusing dark universe

Sure but eyeballing the thread most advocate having veterans and newbies in a game where the veterans mentor the newbies. I don't see that working out well. Maybe if you make it a kind of lover setup where mentor and mentee are of the same faction and can always chat during the day. Feel like that'd help immensely.

[Calix]

Sure but eyeballing the thread most advocate having veterans and newbies in a game where the veterans mentor the newbies. I don't see that working out well. Maybe if you make it a kind of lover setup where mentor and mentee are of the same faction and can always chat during the day. Feel like that'd help immensely.

I think you are arguing for a setup that we used last game :p

[Frozen Angel]

I find that troublesome. Are veteran players intentionally playing worse to explain their play to newbies? It makes more sense to have real mentors on the sideline who can give their thoughts on the game and I mean as if they were playing the game but letting the mentee do all the work.

I see it working best when the mentee does most of the leg work and the mentor gives advice on other possibilities the mentee hasn't considered. This would require regular communication between mentor and mentee during a game and a mentor interested enough to read a game.

Only problem I see would be a lack of volunteers because the mentors could not play in the game in my scenario.

never said that. Not playing worse. Just in a way that make sense for a newbie. If their explaining a logial fallacy they must explain the full idea. If their using abbrivations they must say and explain what it stands for. If they find a scumtell they must explain it.

Their just playing their game while their "nice/not toxic" and "completly transparent about what their doing" Its not playing worse,

and your saying Mentors again. if their inside the game they have their own slots. Their playing their own game. the point is newbies are playing their own game as well while they see some more experienced players play.

and I already explained why nudging a newbie toward a direction is "Bad"

[DarknessB]

I find that troublesome. Are veteran players intentionally playing worse to explain their play to newbies? It makes more sense to have real mentors on the sideline who can give their thoughts on the game and I mean as if they were playing the game but letting the mentee do all the work.

I see it working best when the mentee does most of the leg work and the mentor gives advice on other possibilities the mentee hasn't considered. This would require regular communication between mentor and mentee during a game and a mentor interested enough to read a game.

Only problem I see would be a lack of volunteers because the mentors could not play in the game in my scenario.

This is how I would prefer it works. Basically what we ran except more active mentors who could help smooth over issues like no one knowing what to say on d1 or clearly problematic strategies like everyone trying to peg the two scum at the same time (which no one got right the entire game, may I add). Shows you the shortcomings of pre-flip associations right there.

[Frozen Angel]

Sure but eyeballing the thread most advocate having veterans and newbies in a game where the veterans mentor the newbies. I don't see that working out well. Maybe if you make it a kind of lover setup where mentor and mentee are of the same faction and can always chat during the day. Feel like that'd help immensely.

:|

No one is mentoring anyone.

Everyone play their own game while their in a place suitable for learning the game.

[DarknessB]

I think you are arguing for a setup that we used last game :p

Except one where the mentors actually try (a little harder). :)

[DarknessB]

:|

No one is mentoring anyone.

Everyone play their own game while their in a place suitable for learning the game.

The confusion is arising because proposals have morphed since this thread started. You seemed to be initially proposing vet-newbie with in-game mentor assignments as well, unless that was just a source of miscommunication. Now you seem to be proposing just vet-newbie.

[Frozen Angel]

This is how I would prefer it works. Basically what we ran except more active mentors who could help smooth over issues like no one knowing what to say on d1 or clearly problematic strategies like everyone trying to peg the two scum at the same time (which no one got right the entire game, may I add). Shows you the shortcomings of pre-flip associations right there.

This is how it shouldn't work. No Mentors should do any digging for any mantee. Its just forcing a game style on someone else. If you want someone to learn deduction let them learn it themselves. telling them the solution is just pushing them in a certain way which I consider bad becuase I think I saw enough results for that.

[NoctiZ]

:|

No one is mentoring anyone.

Everyone play their own game while their in a place suitable for learning the game.

Yes, I get that you're advocating for something completely different. Stop bringing it up. This is my idea and I'm also indirectly responding to all the people that mentioned mentors in this thread. God it's like you're stuck on repeat.




This is how I would prefer it works. Basically what we ran except more active mentors who could help smooth over issues like no one knowing what to say on d1 or clearly problematic strategies like everyone trying to peg the two scum at the same time (which no one got right the entire game, may I add). Shows you the shortcomings of pre-flip associations right there.

Heh I can see that. Probably more helpful to have a mixed group playing and have other veterans on the side talking to the mentees but not really playing. New players don't have to be afraid about not knowing stuff because they can always secretly ask their out-of-game mentor.

[DarknessB]

This is how it shouldn't work. No Mentors should do any digging for any mantee. Its just forcing a game style on someone else. If you want someone to learn deduction let them learn it themselves. telling them the solution is just pushing them in a certain way which I consider bad becuase I think I saw enough results for that.

Again, this works much better for certain people and much worse for others. That's the value in running both types of games. Some people like having a bit more help to start and others don't. There was also the option of not having a mentor, which several new players chose. I don't see why we should deprive people of the chance of having a mentor if they want one though (at least in the all newbie games).

This kind of reminds me of the hilarious tokamak fascist post where we're going to force everyone to use preset names in the mod because he doesn't like others to have the choice of a custom name, lol.

[Frozen Angel]

The confusion is arising because proposals have morphed since this thread started. You seemed to be initially proposing vet-newbie with in-game mentor assignments as well, unless that was just a source of miscommunication. Now you seem to be proposing just vet-newbie.

Ok I feel like I'm talking with a stone. I say the newbie game must be a normal game with a very simple setup and few veterans. no one mentor anyone else inside the game. People will play the game with the knowledge their playing it with newbies But they won't just make cases for them.

That's obviously stupid.

Everyone play to their wincon. Newbies will face a challenge and no one beside them is there to solve it. Like a normal mafia game.

that was what I was saying sinsce the start. Please read my posts before answering back.

[NoctiZ]

This is how it shouldn't work. No Mentors should do any digging for any mantee. Its just forcing a game style on someone else. If you want someone to learn deduction let them learn it themselves. telling them the solution is just pushing them in a certain way which I consider bad becuase I think I saw enough results for that.

No one is saying to tell them the solution though but I get that mentees are likely to sheep the ideas of the mentors even if he might just be playing devil's advocate.


Another idea is having veterans outside of the game observe newbies and take notes on their playstyle and after the game they could talk about what could've been "better". Kinda like a feedback talk but the veteran would point out posts where the new player might not have thought everything through for example. Just to expand their horizons with new perspectives.

[Yukitaka Oni]

We need a game with full of newbie
And a game with full of veteran player

[Frozen Angel]

Again, this works much better for certain people and much worse for others. That's the value in running both types of games. Some people like having a bit more help to start and others don't. There was also the option of not having a mentor, which several new players chose. I don't see why we should deprive people of the chance of having a mentor if they want one though (at least in the all newbie games).

This kind of reminds me of the hilarious tokamak fascist post where we're going to force everyone to use preset names in the mod because he doesn't like others to have the choice of a custom name, lol.

Please just agree that your going to disagree with me.

[NoctiZ]

Ok I feel like I'm talking with a stone. I say the newbie game must be a normal game with a very simple setup and few veterans. no one mentor anyone else inside the game. People will play the game with the knowledge their playing it with newbies But they won't just make cases for them.

That's obviously stupid.

Everyone play to their wincon. Newbies will face a challenge and no one beside them is there to solve it. Like a normal mafia game.

that was what I was saying sinsce the start. Please read my posts before answering back.

Did you not see the posts yet where people said we want to be more inviting to new players who might be afraid of jumping into a game without any help? That's why people are proposing alternatives. If new players feel comfortable playing regular games then that's all fine and dandy.

[DarknessB]

No one is saying to tell them the solution though but I get that mentees are likely to sheep the ideas of the mentors even if he might just be playing devil's advocate.


Another idea is having veterans outside of the game observe newbies and take notes on their playstyle and after the game they could talk about what could've been "better". Kinda like a feedback talk but the veteran would point out posts where the new player might not have thought everything through for example. Just to expand their horizons with new perspectives.

I actually did #2 already and have conveyed thoughts to many of the new players on what went right and what didn't from my vantage point. Feedback is always a good thing in terms of improvement.

[Frozen Angel]

Did you not see the posts yet where people said we want to be more inviting to new players who might be afraid of jumping into a game without any help? That's why people are proposing alternatives. If new players feel comfortable playing regular games then that's all fine and dandy.

Its not a regular game

Its a game with a simple setup and designed to be helpful for them to learn. The existence of veterans who are trying to win make them see how the stuff works but their still newbies how are testing the borders

I can't just push the pic inside your mind if you can't see what I'm saying.

[NoctiZ]

I actually did #2 already and have conveyed thoughts to many of the new players on what went right and what didn't from my vantage point. Feedback is always a good thing in terms of improvement.

Yeah that's good. Maybe if it's a game with the official premise of getting feedback it might entice newer players to sign up more readily. (if they even want feedback).

[DarknessB]

Did you not see the posts yet where people said we want to be more inviting to new players who might be afraid of jumping into a game without any help? That's why people are proposing alternatives. If new players feel comfortable playing regular games then that's all fine and dandy.

Agreed -- and no one is forcing new players to play in a beginner's game (as is required by MS). They can sign up for the normal games if they feel up for a greater challenge to start. It's just a good idea to have options for people who want different levels of support as they integrate into playing FMs. Also, it's never a bad idea to forge connections / friendships between players. That's how we get people to stick around -- if you're not making friends with anyone here, odds are, you won't.

[DarknessB]

Yeah that's good. Maybe if it's a game with the official premise of getting feedback it might entice newer players to sign up more readily. (if they even want feedback).

Yeah, no one should be forced to get feedback, but it's a good idea to have several veteran players read through the game and generate thoughts for those who want them. You don't even have to be a great player to do so (I don't consider myself amazing). Sometimes, it's those who have struggled though things themselves who understand how to teach others to work past them as well.

[NoctiZ]

Its not a regular game

Its a game with a simple setup and designed to be helpful for them to learn. The existence of veterans who are trying to win make them see how the stuff works but their still newbies how are testing the borders

I can't just push the pic inside your mind if you can't see what I'm saying.

The point is that you're making veterans alter what they'd say usually just to help new players. What if the veterans want to gambit to win? Telling them bullshit will not help new players if the premise of the setup is to help ease new players into the game.

Your premise itself makes the veterans alter their playstyle or alternatively it won't really help new players at all. A regular game would be a lot better. A simple setup is good enough already for most new players to feel less anxious about joining a game. And for the ones who still won't join: That's why we're proposing different ideas.

[NoctiZ]

Agreed -- and no one is forcing new players to play in a beginner's game (as is required by MS). They can sign up for the normal games if they feel up for a greater challenge to start. It's just a good idea to have options for people who want different levels of support as they integrate into playing FMs. Also, it's never a bad idea to forge connections / friendships between players. That's how we get people to stick around -- if you're not making friends with anyone here, odds are, you won't.

Yeah honestly I just signed for the first game I saw had open sign ups and Bunny messaged me asking if it was my first time playing and all that jazz. So she was my first friend on here and I already felt like I wanted to play more on this site. Connections are always good.

A setup that prohibits toxicity is probably a given in that case.

[DarknessB]

Its not a regular game

Its a game with a simple setup and designed to be helpful for them to learn. The existence of veterans who are trying to win make them see how the stuff works but their still newbies how are testing the borders

I can't just push the pic inside your mind if you can't see what I'm saying.

Yes, the idea is to alternate and run both styles of newcomer games:

1. The game we just ran, but with perhaps slightly more active mentors, if mentees prefer.
2. Newcomer-veteran games like MS does.

Different people will respond to different styles -- there's not a right or wrong answer because it depends how each person learns best, which is going to vary.

[Frozen Angel]

I'm done with this conversation.

good night everyone :)

pedit : No one wil do anything to help anyone else win. They want to gambit? yeah they will do that. newbies face a scum gambit in their first experiance. they win? congrats to them.They loose? they learnt to never get down with the same gambit ever again. You can't see the picture obviously .

good bye.

[NoctiZ]

I'm done with this conversation.

good night everyone :)

pedit : No one wil do anything to help anyone else win. They want to gambit? yeah they will do that. newbies face a scum gambit in their first experiance. they win? congrats to them.They loose? they learnt to never get down with the same gambit ever again. You can't see the picture obviously .

good bye.

So.. a regular game then? Sounds good to me :)

[DarknessB]

Yeah honestly I just signed for the first game I saw had open sign ups and Bunny messaged me asking if it was my first time playing and all that jazz. So she was my first friend on here and I already felt like I wanted to play more on this site. Connections are always good.

A setup that prohibits toxicity is probably a given in that case.

Sure, there should probably be stricter host rules on abuse, language, etc. We don't want players to feel like they are being personally attacked or to have a bad experience. Hosts should be even more careful in beginner games about things like punctuality in posting flips / cards, answering in-game questions, replacing inactive players, etc.

[NoctiZ]

Sure, there should probably be stricter host rules on abuse, language, etc. We don't want players to feel like they are being personally attacked or to have a bad experience. Hosts should be even more careful in beginner games about things like punctuality in posting flips / cards, answering in-game questions, replacing inactive players, etc.

Yeah exactly. Just tagging a setup as "newbie friendly" might already be more inviting and if everyone makes an effort it'll probably help in making them long-time players.

[Frozen Angel]

So.. a regular game then? Sounds good to me :)

A regular game when people know most of the players are newbie and the setup is way easy. and veterans are trying to explain their thoughts more transparently.

Its not a troll shit show or a crazy mechanical setup. Its a game designed for newbies to test stuff out.

Now I started to feel that I'm getting insulted. If your going to continue this conversation be like someone who is criticizing an idea not demolishing it.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Yeah exactly. Just tagging a setup as "newbie friendly" might already be more inviting and if everyone makes an effort it'll probably help in making them long-time players.
Tag: friendly newbie
- newbie get in the game: next 10 minutes being policy lynched by DarknessB.
(very.....friendly) lol...

[Calix]

A regular game when people know most of the players are newbie and the setup is way easy. and veterans are trying to explain their thoughts more transparently.

Its not a troll shit show or a crazy mechanical setup. Its a game designed for newbies to test stuff out.

Now I started to feel that I'm getting insulted. If your going to continue this conversation be like someone who is criticizing an idea not demolishing it.

Nobody is arguing for a mechanics-based setup. We are just suggesting that we have a variety of newbie games for the different types of players. Nobody is belittling your point of view, they are just suggesting alternatives.

[DarknessB]

Tag: friendly newbie
- newbie get in the game: next 10 minutes being policy lynched by DarknessB.
(very.....friendly) lol...

Not cool -- you're spoiling my plan, Yuki! :)

[Frozen Angel]

Nobody is arguing for a mechanics-based setup. We are just suggesting that we have a variety of newbie games for the different types of players. Nobody is belittling your point of view, they are just suggesting alternatives.

I accepted that Their idea is not worng like 3 pages ago,

I feel ignored and insulted when i'm overly explaining something sinsce page 1 and at the end I receive "So , Just a regular game?"

[NoctiZ]

A regular game when people know most of the players are newbie and the setup is way easy. and veterans are trying to explain their thoughts more transparently.

Its not a troll shit show or a crazy mechanical setup. Its a game designed for newbies to test stuff out.

Now I started to feel that I'm getting insulted. If your going to continue this conversation be like someone who is criticizing an idea not demolishing it.

All I've been doing is criticizing the bolded part because that makes it a different dynamic. How far do you even go to be transparent about your thoughts, who judges what is transparent enough? Don't most players already explain their thoughts coherently enough because they want to convince other people of whatever they're saying? And can you be gambiting and also be transparent about your thoughts all the time? It's a contradiction in my eyes.

It seems like a similar idea to the one Darkness and I were discussing albeit ours is a bit more fleshed out in the aspect of helping new players out by being "transparent" by which we mean clarifying many things and being intentionally non-confusing.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Not cool -- you're spoiling my plan, Yuki! :)
It's happen on mafia camp and Koopalitic Lol...

[DarknessB]

It's happen on mafia camp and Koopalitic Lol...

I think you mean Colder War -- I didn't play Koopolitics. Also, I failed both times to get the policy lynch off. I've sort of given up on them now.

[Yukitaka Oni]

I think you mean Colder War -- I didn't play Koopolitics. Also, I failed both times to get the policy lynch off.
Mafia camp you trying to policy me ( it was my 2nd game so I consider myself as a newbie)
Koopalitic I try to get a lynch train on newbie player.
Cold War I bait myself to get a scum train on you and town train on me
---> it's all about lynch policy lol

[Frozen Angel]

All I've been doing is criticizing the bolded part because that makes it a different dynamic. How far do you even go to be transparent about your thoughts, who judges what is transparent enough? Don't most players already explain their thoughts coherent enough because they want to convince other people of whatever they're saying? And you be gambiting and also be transparent about your thoughts all the time? It's a contradiction in my eyes.

It seems like a similar idea to the one Darkness and I were discussing albeit ours is a bit more fleshed out in the aspect of helping new players out by being "transparent" by which we mean clarifying many things and being intentionally non-confusing.

No one is judging anything and no judging is required. You play your game and when your calling someones OMGUS instead of saying their omgusing you explain the scum tell in a more detailed perspective.

If your talking about preflip accusations you will explain why their wrong.

Its just something I assume obvious as these veterans are playing with newbies how are seeing these stuff for the first time. Its not playing against your wincon , Its just being a little bit over explainy becuase you're there to teach some newbies some lessons after all. Regardless of your alignment.

[DarknessB]

Mafia camp you trying to policy me ( it was my 2nd game so I consider myself as a newbie)
Koopalitic I try to get a lynch train on newbie player.
Cold War I bait myself to get a scum train on you and town train on me
---> it's all about lynch policy lol

Remember, you were in fact scum in Camp Mafia and no one believed me. :)

Colder War was a total shitshow, I agree with that. Day 1 was insane and it was going to be a really fun and heated game, but for the host flaking on us...

[Frozen Angel]

and thats something that must be reminded to the veteran players to consider, That their not playing with experienced players.

Nothing else.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Remember, you were in fact scum in Camp Mafia and no one believed me. :)

Colder War was a total shitshow, I agree with that. Day 1 was insane and it was going to be a really fun and heated game, but for the host flaking on us...
I still feel ashamed to use the tactic spreading hatred and shitpost to stop town from reading each other
I made a bad name to myself by using this dirty trick v)o.o)v :wm: v(o.o(v

[NoctiZ]

No one is judging anything and no judging is required. You play your game and when your calling someones OMGUS instead of saying their omgusing you explain the scum tell in a more detailed perspective.

If your talking about preflip accusations you will explain why their wrong.

Its just something I assume obvious as these veterans are playing with newbies how are seeing these stuff for the first time. Its not playing against your wincon , Its just being a little bit over explainy becuase you're there to teach some newbies some lessons after all. Regardless of your alignment.

Okay but no one says something without any explanation and expects people to follow. They only do that when they don't really care about it anyway or when they're trying a gambit (as in reaction testing for example). Idk if it's just you having a different experience from MS but if someone wanted to seriously peg someone with a scum tell then they'd explain or get asked about their short post since people expect their POV and an explanation. It's really just a regular game from my perspective and with what Darkness and I have been talking about it'll basically be what you're saying.

[Cryptonic]

Maybe I'll start playing SFMs again after FM.

[DarknessB]

Maybe I'll start playing SFMs again after FM.

Yes -- we need you to make S-FMs great again!

[Frozen Angel]

Okay but no one says something without any explanation and expects people to follow. They only do that when they don't really care about it anyway or when they're trying a gambit (as in reaction testing for example). Idk if it's just you having a different experience from MS but if someone wanted to seriously peg someone with a scum tell then they'd explain or get asked about their short post since people expect their POV and an explanation. It's really just a regular game from my perspective and with what Darkness and I have been talking about it'll basically be what you're saying.

I respect your perspective.

I'm done criticizing your idea.

I'm done explaining my perspective.

I feel overly satisfied with myself on this topic and I don't want to continue talking about it at all. Good night.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Yes -- we need you to make S-FMs great again!
Build a mafia wall first bro v)o.o)>

[NoctiZ]

Maybe I'll start playing SFMs again after FM.

Oh man, remember the investigator game where everyone was invest and some could get the opposite results and every day was compiling claims and making tables and trying to deduce who was scum and who wasn't and creed failed and then I failed because of that and you won the game? Good times. Re-read that one recently.

[Cryptonic]

Oh man, remember the investigator game where everyone was invest and some could get the opposite results and every day was compiling claims and making tables and trying to deduce who was scum and who wasn't and creed failed and then I failed because of that and you won the game? Good times. Re-read that one recently.

Hahahahahaahahah good times.
I always loved how creed would always claim Neutral when he was scum in normal games. Like 5 games I played with him and he claimed Survivor as Mafia lol.

[Calix]

Oh man, remember the investigator game where everyone was invest and some could get the opposite results and every day was compiling claims and making tables and trying to deduce who was scum and who wasn't and creed failed and then I failed because of that and you won the game? Good times. Re-read that one recently.

Are you talking about that RLVG-hosted Sheriff game?

[NoctiZ]

I respect your perspective.

I'm done criticizing your idea.

I'm done explaining my perspective.

I feel overly satisfied with myself on this topic and I don't want to continue talking about it at all. Good night.

Wow, fiery demon much? (Hah get it, because you're so emotional when your name suggests you are someone who can keep a cool head? Ayyyooo)

You didn't even criticize anything. You just whined and complained I didn't get "the picture" and failed to write up a concise post of what exactly your game is supposed to be and why it is what we should want. That's such an illogical way of discussing anything.

Please, it was simply a civil discussion. You shouldn't get mad when you feel that someone didn't understand your point, it simply means you didn't explain it well enough. Take that as your first feedback from me. Maybe it'll help you in games. ;)


Okay, I think I exhausted all my ideas in these posts. Gonna observe which setups will emerge from this. Good ideas everyone!

[NoctiZ]

Hahahahahaahahah good times.
I always loved how creed would always claim Neutral when he was scum in normal games. Like 5 games I played with him and he claimed Survivor as Mafia lol.

I loved those signature moves of everyone back in the day. D1s were so much fun.


Are you talking about that RLVG-hosted Sheriff game?

Oh yeah I might be.

[SuperJack]

Three fucking pages? I hate you guys.

[Calix]

Three fucking pages? I hate you guys.

Yo scrub, want me to help host a game or two for the newbs?

[NoctiZ]

Three fucking pages? I hate you guys.

Yeah, felt like a mafia game in here.

[Cryptonic]

SuperJack

[The Godfather]

SuperJack has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


SuperJack ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/8508') (1 [L-0]): Cryptonic ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596496')

[SuperJack]

Let me read FFS.

[Cryptonic]

lol no

[DarknessB]

SuperJack has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


SuperJack (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/8508) (1 [L-0]): Cryptonic (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596496)

This is basically all that needs to be said. :D

[DarknessB]

Yo scrub, want me to help host a game or two for the newbs?

That depends -- how good at you at replacing players and posting references to non-existent last wills? :)

[Sino]

That depends -- how good at you at replacing players and posting references to non-existent last wills? :)

And delaying day starts.

[Frozen Angel]

Wow, fiery demon much? (Hah get it, because you're so emotional when your name suggests you are someone who can keep a cool head? Ayyyooo)

You didn't even criticize anything. You just whined and complained I didn't get "the picture" and failed to write up a concise post of what exactly your game is supposed to be and why it is what we should want. That's such an illogical way of discussing anything.

Please, it was simply a civil discussion. You shouldn't get mad when you feel that someone didn't understand your point, it simply means you didn't explain it well enough. Take that as your first feedback from me. Maybe it'll help you in games. ;)


Okay, I think I exhausted all my ideas in these posts. Gonna observe which setups will emerge from this. Good ideas everyone!

I never got frustrated while discussing this.

You didn't give out an idea , it was darkness idea's which I criticized already.

I hate being ignored and repeating myself over and over again. I hate it with my whole heart

It's not my duty to discus this with you. I suggested my point of view and I beleive I explained it enough. so I feel I did more than I had to do.

Its a civil discussion , sure. It's a useful discussion? no. so I prefer to don't waste my time with it anymore.

[DarknessB]

And delaying day starts.

I have a townread on this guy now -- good contribution to discussion.

[Sino]

I have a townread on this guy now -- good contribution to discussion.

What a poor attempt at buddying.

[DarknessB]

What a poor attempt at buddying.

Wow, where were these sharp reads and pushes during the Beginner's Game? At least you are picking it up now. :)

[SuperJack]

Ok

MattZed The Matrix 6 setup is very balanced. (Proven with lots of games)
Detevtive/Sheriffs are balanced with Doctors/Vests/Consorts
But if you have suggestions do show me.
And yeh, I have learnt my lesson about replacing people.

Veri Yes I may of delayed the EOD posts, If I posted them earlier then either then night would of been longer, or I would of been unable to be their after 24 hours. I have a set time to make the posts because its the time everything where I know I'm free (Unless Emergency takes place, which it did once.)
And yes, Panda may of had experience, she had played a few games before on her Animal Crossing forum. She was no veteran though. But once the game had started, its something I wish I actually did, since sometimes the game did need experienced players to push it further into discussion. And it's most likely something I will add next time.
And the game in the end was not "Who is the winner" its just about people getting the feel for forum mafia on this forum. Make some new friends ect.

I had hoped that Panda was going to post, as she -DID- come online and read the mail, and view the topic. Yet I could not wait around to see if she did. I had other games going on myself where participating in, along with work and family stuff. So I had missed Panda's bout of inactivity. Yet also no one brought it up with me until after the game had finished.



About the Mentors
The Primary reason I brought mentors into the newbie game was so that the players could have someone to talk to, someone already part of the community they could get to know, and support each other.
When I join with new people on the forums, I don't just talk about the game, I get to know the new player aswell. I had hoped that the Mentors would do what I had.

The Secondary reason was to help them with the game. I did not want the Mentors playing the games for them, or doing most of the handy work (Which is why I didn't make them Hydras). The game with the new players is so that the New players can get a feel to what Forum Mafia is like, I expected the new players to make mistakes as that is perhaps the best way of learning (For example, I will never again vote early in a 3v2).

And I do apologise that some mentors didn't do as much as others form your PoV. I didn't want to sit in the chat and push the mentor to mentor. I just kind of excepted them to.
And from what I understand, some players didn't want a mentor to hold their hand, once they got going in the game they where fine.


What will most likely happen next time
I will include both Experienced (not Veteran) players, and allow Mentors in the next game, If a player wishes for one. (So both, like Calix said)
Give a more detailed job of what I wish the Mentors to do.

[Sino]

Wow, where were these sharp reads and pushes during the Beginner's Game? At least you are picking it up now. :)

Heh, better late than never !

[Cryptonic]

So I can't join?

[DarknessB]

So I can't join?

Only as S-FM Batman.

[NoctiZ]

I never got frustrated while discussing this.

You didn't give out an idea , it was darkness idea's which I criticized already.

I hate being ignored and repeating myself over and over again. I hate it with my whole heart

It's not my duty to discus this with you. I suggested my point of view and I beleive I explained it enough. so I feel I did more than I had to do.

Its a civil discussion , sure. It's a useful discussion? no. so I prefer to don't waste my time with it anymore.

I gave out many ideas and one of them coincided with whatever Darkness said. Great that you chose to ignore those.

And you claiming to not be frustrated while earlier you said you actually felt insulted or took something personally (whatever it was, I'm too lazy to quote now) is boggling my mind. And don't you say those two are not the same thing lmfao

I merely presented my ideas and you chose to throw a fit when your poorly explained idea was not completely understood by myself for lack of cohesion. Getting mad and not properly clarifying made this a "useless" discussion. Also you're still wasting your time with it despite saying a few times you wouldn't anymore. It's hilarious that you claim to not be frustrated and then go on to show that you really are. It's really quite entertaining to me.


Hey guys, I think I'm winning this game of mafia. Now sheep me to lynch Frozen :fb:

[SuperJack]

So I can't join?

No. But you can be a Mentor.

[Calix]

No. But you can be a Mentor.

Do I get to host any of them? :(

[SuperJack]

I gave out many ideas and one of them coincided with whatever Darkness said. Great that you chose to ignore those.

And you claiming to not be frustrated while earlier you said you actually felt insulted or took something personally (whatever it was, I'm too lazy to quote now) is boggling my mind. And don't you say those two are not the same thing lmfao

I merely presented my ideas and you chose to throw a fit when your poorly explained idea was not completely understood by myself for lack of cohesion. Getting mad and not properly clarifying made this a "useless" discussion. Also you're still wasting your time with it despite saying a few times you wouldn't anymore. It's hilarious that you claim to not be frustrated and then go on to show that you really are. It's really quite entertaining to me.


Hey guys, I think I'm winning this game of mafia. Now sheep me to lynch Frozen :fb:

You have been on this site for to long today and made to many posts.

You now have to join the next S-FM and play against me.

[SuperJack]

Do I get to host any of them? :(

Sure you can host them and I can be a Mentor if you wish.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Counter claim.
I am citizen!

[Calix]

Sure you can host them and I can be a Mentor if you wish.

Deal. Gotta catch them all.

[NoctiZ]

You have been on this site for to long today and made to many posts.

You now have to join the next S-FM and play against me.

Oh feck me. I was fearing this. It was bound to happen. Someone calling me out on not playing anymore in a while.

Ehh, maybe after July when I'm done with exams. Though I might be going to England during the time from August 1st until the middle of August, sometime inbetween that. What do you say, I crash at your place for a few days while I'm there? Sounds like a plan right?

[SuperJack]

Oh feck me. I was fearing this. It was bound to happen. Someone calling me out on not playing anymore in a while.

Ehh, maybe after July when I'm done with exams. Though I might be going to England during the time from August 1st until the middle of August, sometime inbetween that. What do you say, I crash at your place for a few days while I'm there? Sounds like a plan right?

FUCK YEH.

I'll just kick my partner out and you can have their place in my bed :)

[SuperJack]

Deal. Gotta catch them all.

Why that reference 0-o

[Calix]

27116,2

5

:)

[NoctiZ]

FUCK YEH.

I'll just kick my partner out and you can have their place in my bed :)

I mean it doesn't have to be the bed :love:

but it'd be a real possibility. I'm just not sure on where to stay during the time there, I know a few people I wanna meet but not everyone can let me stay at their place and idk any inns or the like which are not very expensive. I'll have to plan this through lol

[SuperJack]

8508,5

[SuperJack]

Calix

[SuperJack]

Calix was Punched to death.

[Calix]

Calix

SuperJack

[The Godfather]

SuperJack has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


SuperJack ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/8508') (1 [L-0]): Calix ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596561')

[DarknessB]

My thoughts are in teal.


Ok

@MattZed (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=10188) The Matrix 6 setup is very balanced. (Proven with lots of games)
Detevtive/Sheriffs are balanced with Doctors/Vests/Consorts

I agree with this. I think MattZed's point is to add some variety and avoid our beginner program becoming a rip off of Mafiascum's. Perhaps some of us in this group such as you, me, Calix, MattZed, Crypt, whomever else has an opinion, can do some brainstorming on good basic setups to run.

But if you have suggestions do show me.
And yeh, I have learnt my lesson about replacing people.

That's good to hear. You should also stick that directly in the game rules and provide warnings to players who aren't meeting the threshold just because they may not be as cognizant as beginners.

@Veri (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=8871) Yes I may of delayed the EOD posts, If I posted them earlier then either then night would of been longer, or I would of been unable to be their after 24 hours. I have a set time to make the posts because its the time everything where I know I'm free (Unless Emergency takes place, which it did once.)

I mean, you can always adjust night length as long as it's around 24 hours. Hosts do that all the time. I think players just don't like when they are waiting around for a flip / for night to start because it means a delay in the game. It also makes us look less organized and isn't as good of an impression on the beginners.

And yes, Panda may of had experience, she had played a few games before on her Animal Crossing forum. She was no veteran though. But once the game had started, its something I wish I actually did, since sometimes the game did need experienced players to push it further into discussion. And it's most likely something I will add next time.

Panda had experience, but she was also being a little pushy about it during Day 1 with overuse of jargon that many of us had never heard of, like RQS. Just something to be mindful of -- you shouldn't need a glossary in front of you to follow a Beginner's FM Game. As a shameless plug, I do encourage players to use the Wiki, however, which is being updated with a lot more FM content, including the glossary. If anyone has terms they want defined, respond here or PM me.

And the game in the end was not "Who is the winner" its just about people getting the feel for forum mafia on this forum. Make some new friends ect.

Sure, but effectively, the Town could not win because Panda was not around to vote, which many of the new players found very frustrating. It's the idea that they would rather lose a well-played game than win a poorly played one.

I had hoped that Panda was going to post, as she -DID- come online and read the mail, and view the topic. Yet I could not wait around to see if she did. I had other games going on myself where participating in, along with work and family stuff. So I had missed Panda's bout of inactivity. Yet also no one brought it up with me until after the game had finished.

Perhaps this is a good idea for non-playing veterans to be monitoring the game, or for you to have a co-host who can watch the game closer during those times that you cannot. Especially given we are dealing with beginners here, we really want to strive for the best experience that we can. I think the flat 5 post rule would have helped too because Panda should have been pulled before LYLO. Replacing a player out at LYLO isn't fair to anyone in the game given the new slot.

About the Mentors
The Primary reason I brought mentors into the newbie game was so that the players could have someone to talk to, someone already part of the community they could get to know, and support each other.
When I join with new people on the forums, I don't just talk about the game, I get to know the new player aswell. I had hoped that the Mentors would do what I had.

Agreed -- part of the idea is to strike up friendships and make people feel more connected to the community, which has been a success in terms of the new players and mentors bonding together during and after the game.

The Secondary reason was to help them with the game. I did not want the Mentors playing the games for them, or doing most of the handy work (Which is why I didn't make them Hydras). The game with the new players is so that the New players can get a feel to what Forum Mafia is like, I expected the new players to make mistakes as that is perhaps the best way of learning (For example, I will never again vote early in a 3v2).

Mistakes are fine, but people having no idea how to start the game and mentors not helping there isn't a mistake. I just felt like there could have been a bit more support especially during Day 1 or about things like pre-flip assocations, which doomed the Town, but no other mentor mentioned but me.

And I do apologise that some mentors didn't do as much as others form your PoV. I didn't want to sit in the chat and push the mentor to mentor. I just kind of excepted them to.
And from what I understand, some players didn't want a mentor to hold their hand, once they got going in the game they where fine.

I think the issue was trying to encourage the mentors to ask their mentees what they wanted and cater to that preference. I.e. some mentees wanted very hands on / close coordination, and others wanted more hands off / let me do what I want. Both are completely fine. What's less fine is where the mentee really wants help but doesn't feel comfortable approaching the mentor who as been AFK, which I understand occurred a lot. In other words, mentors should be as active as the mentee wants to make the experience good for them.

What will most likely happen next time
I will include both Experienced (not Veteran) players, and allow Mentors in the next game, If a player wishes for one. (So both, like Calix said)
Give a more detailed job of what I wish the Mentors to do.

This makes sense to me. I would also propose carefully reviewing the rules for activity requirements, perhaps adding a co-host, perhaps augmenting materials about how to play (Wiki, etc.), and trying to solicit mentors further in advance.

[DarknessB]

Sure you can host them and I can be a Mentor if you wish.

I feel very sorry for whichever newbie draws that short straw... :)

In all seriousness, either co-hosts or a host that is going to be VERY attentive to the game. I know that's not always possible because of schedules, but there were bunches of host-type questions in-game that were never answered.

[DarknessB]

I mean it doesn't have to be the bed :love:

He wants it to be the bed -- beggars can't be choosers, Noctiz.

[NoctiZ]

He wants it to be the bed -- beggars can't be choosers, Noctiz.

Hey, no worries, anything for my dear friends and shitposters

[SuperJack]

I mean it doesn't have to be the bed :love:

but it'd be a real possibility. I'm just not sure on where to stay during the time there, I know a few people I wanna meet but not everyone can let me stay at their place and idk any inns or the like which are not very expensive. I'll have to plan this through lol

Well if you're serious, I'll have to discuss it with you-know-who, and we don't currently have a spare bed in the spare bedroom. Just my wardrobe 0-o. But inflatable mattresses are always somewhere,

[Frozen Angel]

NoctiZ

I hate you

I'm not frustrated.

I just really hate you.

You remind me of someone ... Who I will kill if I find her.

You remind me of the day I commited suicide!

but lets not go oftopic ok?

I'm not discussing this. I did my job and explained a completely applicable reasonable way for implementing newbie games and explained its pro's and con's in detail. I read all your posts and ideas and about those who were actually about this matter you were just repeating darkness or the parts I am agreed with and weren't the point of discussion.

And about the idea of having mentors for whoever they want it : I agree that might help if the mentor don't play the game for the slot or just let it go. I explained the pros and cons and I was trying to make a discussion here while some people like you just want to take a stance and attack whoever else.

I won't ever do any other favors for this community. I know you didn't ask for it but meh!

I'm really restricted about the punishments I assign.

oh and please Go get lost and never mention me again.

Thank you

[Frozen Angel]

oh and the fact i hate you has no relation to this discussion. Its just you remind me of someone. don't take it personal

[NoctiZ]

Well if you're serious, I'll have to discuss it with you-know-who, and we don't currently have a spare bed in the spare bedroom. Just my wardrobe 0-o. But inflatable mattresses are always somewhere,

I don't know really, probably depends on how close you are to London. If it's quite a trip then I would probably not make it but I think it'd be cool if we could atleast meet up once just for shits and giggles, maybe hit up a bar or something if even. We'll discuss this further if I'm committing to the trip. :D

[SuperJack]

DarknessB

Yes I'm hoping that the clever clogs on Setups can help here create some. But at the end of the day, the setups will be basic and that may mean. yes, they will be very simile to other site versions.

And Yeh I could adjust the night lenghts, but I had a lot on my plate to deal with and it was much easier to be on and make players wait until that time. Just because of my personal timing thats all.

I recognized the issues with day 1. And that why having people who have played it before to push day 1 discussion is a good idea.
If it was not for Panda, I am sure day 1 would of been a lot less eventful.

[SuperJack]

I don't know really, probably depends on how close you are to London. If it's quite a trip then I would probably not make it but I think it'd be cool if we could atleast meet up once just for shits and giggles, maybe hit up a bar or something if even. We'll discuss this further if I'm committing to the trip. :D

LOL NOPE.

Not London pal, I'm opposite side of England. But I'm sure I can pop down their to see you!

[NoctiZ]

NoctiZ

I hate you

I'm not frustrated.

I just really hate you.

You remind me of someone ... Who I will kill if I find her.

You remind me of the day I commited suicide!

but lets not go oftopic ok?

I'm not discussing this. I did my job and explained a completely applicable reasonable way for implementing newbie games and explained its pro's and con's in detail. I read all your posts and ideas and about those who were actually about this matter you were just repeating darkness or the parts I am agreed with and weren't the point of discussion.

And about the idea of having mentors for whoever they want it : I agree that might help if the mentor don't play the game for the slot or just let it go. I explained the pros and cons and I was trying to make a discussion here while some people like you just want to take a stance and attack whoever else.

I won't ever do any other favors for this community. I know you didn't ask for it but meh!

I'm really restricted about the punishments I assign.

oh and please Go get lost and never mention me again.

Thank you

See, you're just being ridiculous when you say that I was just trying to attack anyone and I'm not sure people would agree with your assessment of this. And I find it cute that you repeat you hate me. If it's not really about me then don't bring it up again and again you emotional demon. :calix:

[SuperJack]

Frozen Angel

Noctiz is a pretty swell fella, dont let this one topic make you have a permanent judgement on the fello


And NoctiZ leave it and dont reply to her :P you will only cause this rift to continue

[Frozen Angel]

I am an emotional demon.

and you just mentioned me again.

Just drop it before I rage. You will hate yourself after it.

[NoctiZ]

LOL NOPE.

Not London pal, I'm opposite side of England. But I'm sure I can pop down their to see you!

Heh it's no problem even if you couldn't make it down there, after all not everyone can be expected to do so at any time. I'll stay in touch and let you know what's up though. :)

[Cryptonic]

No. But you can be a Mentor.

Ok, fine.

I have a brand new friend who wants to try FM but he doesn't have an account yet. Can he sign up?
I'll be his Mentor.

[NoctiZ]

Frozen Angel

Noctiz is a pretty swell fella, dont let this one topic make you have a permanent judgement on the fello


And NoctiZ leave it and dont reply to her :P you will only cause this rift to continue

I can't help myself, I just gotta mention her.

Frozen Angel

:toadette:

[SuperJack]

Heh it's no problem even if you couldn't make it down there, after all not everyone can be expected to do so at any time. I'll stay in touch and let you know what's up though. :)

Awesome. Lets not invite the other English scrubs though like Mikecall ;)

[NoctiZ]

Ok, fine.

I have a brand new friend who wants to try FM but he doesn't have an account yet. Can he sign up?

Only if I can be your new friend.

[DarknessB]

@DarknessB (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php?u=11837)

Yes I'm hoping that the clever clogs on Setups can help here create some. But at the end of the day, the setups will be basic and that may mean. yes, they will be very simile to other site versions.

And Yeh I could adjust the night lenghts, but I had a lot on my plate to deal with and it was much easier to be on and make players wait until that time. Just because of my personal timing thats all.

I recognized the issues with day 1. And that why having people who have played it before to push day 1 discussion is a good idea.
If it was not for Panda, I am sure day 1 would of been a lot less eventful.

Oh yeah -- the setups should be very basic. Really some combination of the roles we saw / could have seen in this game -- Citizen, Sheriff, Doctor, Detective / Lookout, maybe a Body Double, maybe Vigilante, Mafioso, Consigliere, Consort, etc. We don't need anything even a step up like a Mayor which could cause a lot of chaos.

The night length issue is solved by having co-hosts since they can balance the duties / timing. I think for this game, it'd be a really good idea just to have an extra set of eyes on the game, because we don't want beginners suffering in silence and they may less inclined to raise issues on their own.

Re: Day 1, the mentors hopefully will assist with that process as well. I get that RVS is somewhat unlikely for a Beginner's Game, but even some basic setup speculation or more informed RQS would be nice.

[NoctiZ]

Awesome. Lets not invite the other English scrubs though like Mikecall ;)

Yeah, let's make it super exclusive and not invite others for absolutely no reason! :D

[SuperJack]

Ok, fine.

I have a brand new friend who wants to try FM but he doesn't have an account yet. Can he sign up?
I'll be his Mentor.

No. All new people have to go through me. I require Dic pics from each of them to prove they are not the same person, or a smurf. And I will use the Dic Pic database we have to comfirm this.

[DarknessB]

Ok, fine.

I have a brand new friend who wants to try FM but he doesn't have an account yet. Can he sign up?
I'll be his Mentor.

Not fair -- I want Crypt to be my mentor.

[SuperJack]

Oh yeah -- the setups should be very basic. Really some combination of the roles we saw / could have seen in this game -- Citizen, Sheriff, Doctor, Detective / Lookout, maybe a Body Double, maybe Vigilante, Mafioso, Consigliere, Consort, etc. We don't need anything even a step up like a Mayor which could cause a lot of chaos.

The night length issue is solved by having co-hosts since they can balance the duties / timing. I think for this game, it'd be a really good idea just to have an extra set of eyes on the game, because we don't want beginners suffering in silence and they may less inclined to raise issues on their own.

Re: Day 1, the mentors hopefully will assist with that process as well. I get that RVS is somewhat unlikely for a Beginner's Game, but even some basic setup speculation or more informed RQS would be nice.

Yeh Which is why Calix will hopefully host it. She is a good girl.

[Cryptonic]

No. All new people have to go through me. I require Dic pics from each of them to prove they are not the same person, or a smurf. And I will use the Dic Pic database we have to comfirm this.

Ok, that's fine.

Your setup is added to a special queue that goes through me. I will use the queue database to confirm when this can begin.

[Calix]

Yeh Which is why Calix will hopefully host it. She is a good girl.

Are we just using NotMatrix6 or can I use a range of basic setups?

[SuperJack]

Ok, that's fine.

Your setup is added to a special queue that goes through me. I will use the queue database to confirm when this can begin.

I'm hosting this in Arrows section, so Arrow is in charge of allowing it to play.

[SuperJack]

Are we just using NotMatrix6 or can I use a range of basic setups?

Depends, Darkness is saying that we shouldn't plagiarise things that are proven to work, so you may have to pretend to create your own. Perhaps ask other people to create some newbie setups.

[DarknessB]

Yeh Which is why Calix will hopefully host it. She is a good girl.

It's a good idea to divide up the tasks anyway. You are very good at recruiting people whereas Calix is very detail-oriented and would be good at running the game itself, I can work on some of the Wiki resources for new players, etc.

[Calix]

Depends, Darkness is saying that we shouldn't plagiarise things that are proven to work, so you may have to pretend to create your own. Perhaps ask other people to create some newbie setups.

Snark has been ignored. I am taking that as a yes.

[DarknessB]

Are we just using NotMatrix6 or can I use a range of basic setups?

I think that was a point of discussion with MattZed's preference not to run Matrix6 every time as the beginner setup (to avoid becoming a Mafiascum clone). Would be good to brainstorm some ideas as a group / run some setups past a bunch of us before picking one.

[DarknessB]

Depends, Darkness is saying that we shouldn't plagiarise things that are proven to work, so you may have to pretend to create your own. Perhaps ask other people to create some newbie setups.

This was actually MattZed's point that I was conveying on his behalf, but sure, you can attribute it to me as well, lol.

[Calix]

I think that was a point of discussion with MattZed's preference not to run Matrix6 every time as the beginner setup (to avoid becoming a Mafiascum clone). Would be good to brainstorm some ideas as a group / run some setups past a bunch of us before picking one.

Sure, I can look for some more on the MS wiki; they have a lot of ideas to spice it up a bit :)

Should I link them here?

[DarknessB]

Sure, I can look for some more on the MS wiki; they have a lot of ideas to spice it up a bit :)

Should I link them here?

Since this thread is becoming a bit off-topic / long, maybe it's best to start a new one in Forum Mafia Parking just so the discussion there can be solely focused on the beginner setups, and not on other stuff too.

[MattZed]

I actually just don't like Matrix6 as a setup. I would rather rig it to have 1 Cop 100% of the time and no other TPRs. The setups that roll with a Detective are a bit harder for town in a way that I think is just unnecessary.

[Calix]

I actually just don't like Matrix6 as a setup. I would rather rig it to have 1 Cop 100% of the time and no other TPRs. The setups that roll with a Detective are a bit harder for town in a way that I think is just unnecessary.

I guess this:

Mafioso
Consort
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

would also not bother you?

[SuperJack]

I actually just don't like Matrix6 as a setup. I would rather rig it to have 1 Cop 100% of the time and no other TPRs. The setups that roll with a Detective are a bit harder for town in a way that I think is just unnecessary.

DUDE prove it. Explain how it was unbalanced.

[SuperJack]

I guess this:

Mafioso
Consort
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

would also not bother you?

I read something about this being broken.

[SuperJack]

I read something about this being broken.

Or did I? Maybe Im confusing myself.

[DarknessB]

I actually just don't like Matrix6 as a setup. I would rather rig it to have 1 Cop 100% of the time and no other TPRs. The setups that roll with a Detective are a bit harder for town in a way that I think is just unnecessary.

Detective is a comparatively weak investigative role, I agree with that much.

[SuperJack]

Detective is a comparatively weak investigative role, I agree.

Which is why the Consort was not included.

Detective would have a 50/50 on scum.
And if he did get feedback there is a 50/50 chance that player is scum not doctor.

From their he works out who is what.

[Cryptonic]

I guess this:

Mafioso
Consort
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

would also not bother you?

Yea! I love this setup.
Becomes more Balanced if Consort and do Roleblock & NK same night if alone.

[SuperJack]

Yea! I love this setup.
Becomes more Balanced if Consort and do Roleblock & NK same night if alone.

So B of Matix 6 lawls

[DarknessB]

Yea! I love this setup.
Becomes more Balanced if Consort and do Roleblock & NK same night if alone.

The only thing I don't like is that every role is set -- i.e. no possibility of any other configuration like with Matrix. It's fundamentally sound though. You might also consider whether to enable or disable LWs in terms of the Sheriff's leads.

[Calix]

So B of Matix 6 lawls

You do realise that basically ALL the basic setups are covered by Matrix6, right?

The only problem people seem to be having with that setup is the Detective role.

[MattZed]

I guess this:

Mafioso
Consort
Sheriff
Doctor
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

would also not bother you?
Not as big of a fan because it gives 2 unique TPRs town can claim, but like Crypt said it's better if consort can roleblock and kill alone.

[Calix]

Not as big of a fan because it gives 2 unique TPRs town can claim, but like Crypt said it's better if consort can roleblock and kill alone.

Yeah, that is a given, otherwise it risks turning into Follow The Cop.

Also I'm not doing Last Wills.

And the point is that scum learn to counter-claim convincingly.

[DarknessB]

Yeah, that is a given, otherwise it risks turning into Follow The Cop.

Also I'm not doing Last Wills.

And the point is that scum learn to counter-claim convincingly.

I don't feel like anyone really used their last will that effectively in the first beginner game anyway. I would rather have the focus be on action in the game while you are alive vs. writing a great last will.

[MattZed]

I'm open to other TPR possibilities. Town needs at least something; 5v2 is a 77% Mafia win with random kills. You can throw a Bus Driver in there for shits and giggles.

[Orpz]

I also agree that making mistakes is the best way to learn. When something memorable happens, either thru amazement or embarrassment, you remember that. That lesson will stick with you and prevent you from making the same mistake twice. If you are a sheep in a game and just following the lead of a loud person, and you end up losing cause that loud person was scum.. Maybe next time you're going to question this loud person, instead of sitting back and following.

I do agree that a mentor shouldn't specifically be in a game to help a specific person, but veterans can mentor people in the same game by offering advice like "We should be asking questions about x" and things like that so players know what to look for.

That's just my opinion, though. I feel the best way to learn something is by failing. You don't get better at anything by competing with people worse than you. This doesn't just go for FM, it goes for all aspects of life.

I completely agree. I made so many mistakes my first few games (still do!) and through all these years I remember explicitly the details of the game and what I learned from it moving forward. In my second game, I was Slenderman and basically a MM against a whole slew of experienced players and was quickly caught and killed. I lost, but even today I still remember all the tells I gave off and what I could have done better. I was even place on Crypt's S-FM ladder at one time.

We shouldn't be afraid of losing S-FM games. We should be more worried about not improving! And as Crypt says, this applies to all aspects of life :)

[DarknessB]

I'm open to other TPR possibilities. Town needs at least something; 5v2 is a 77% Mafia win with random kills. You can throw a Bus Driver in there for shits and giggles.

I think this is a terrible idea for a newcomer game, lol. Many veterans don't know how to play BD well even.

[MattZed]

I think this is a terrible idea for a newcomer game, lol. Many veterans don't know how to play BD well even.
Everyone has to learn somewhere.

[Calix]

Everyone has to learn somewhere.

The dude who ""balances"" the setups, everyone! :>

[DarknessB]

Everyone has to learn somewhere.

Yeah, the idea isn't to give beginners a trolly setup that won't be like what they would typically encounter in most games. It's far more useful to learn how to use a Sheriff or Doctor or Escort / Consort than a Bus Driver.

[MattZed]

Yeah, the idea isn't to give beginners a trolly setup that won't be like what they would typically encounter in most games. It's far more useful to learn how to use a Sheriff or Doctor or Escort / Consort than a Bus Driver.
I don't think Bus Driver is an especially trolly role. Maybe a little underpowered, but we'd have to see.

To be clear, the setup I'm proposing is:
Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

[ika]

just make bus driver unable to target self and your good to go.

if bus driver can self target its basicly an inviclbie townie

[DarknessB]

I don't think Bus Driver is an especially trolly role. Maybe a little underpowered, but we'd have to see.

To be clear, the setup I'm proposing is:
Mafioso
Mafioso
Bus Driver
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen
Citizen

I would rather see this as a Vanilla S-FM than a Beginner's Game, but others can disagree of course. More value to me in teaching beginners how to work with Cops and Doctors.

[Cryptonic]

The only thing I don't like is that every role is set -- i.e. no possibility of any other configuration like with Matrix. It's fundamentally sound though. You might also consider whether to enable or disable LWs in terms of the Sheriff's leads.

What's wrong with that, though?
No last wills, either.

[Cryptonic]

Not as big of a fan because it gives 2 unique TPRs town can claim, but like Crypt said it's better if consort can roleblock and kill alone.

But then Mafioso Counter Claims, Town doesn't lynch between the two, and Consort roleblocks and both claim roleblocked.

The setup is specifically against rolecalling.

There are also Citizens.

[DarknessB]

What's wrong with that, though?
No last wills, either.

Nothing's wrong with that in particular -- just seems a little boring, lol.

[Cryptonic]

Nothing's wrong with that in particular -- just seems a little boring, lol.

I don't see how. The fun in Mafia comes from misleading, lying, and finding the lies.
I think it's boring when half a game is trying to figure out the rolelist and comparing it to the graveyard and trying to apply broken statistics to lynch options.

[MattZed]

But then Mafioso Counter Claims, Town doesn't lynch between the two, and Consort roleblocks and both claim roleblocked.

The setup is specifically against rolecalling.

There are also Citizens.
My point is that, unless you're at LYLO, the TPRs can claim and town won't lynch without a CC. If no CC, then they're immune to lynch; but if there's a CC then town should pick between them and lynch the other tomorrow. The Mafioso ends up either losing a 1v1 or getting lynched the next day.

Of course, in a 5v2 most of the game is probably LYLO. 1v1'ing a TPR is still precarious, though.

[DarknessB]

7 or 9 player setup?

I know we've talked about this before, but I would suggest 9 players, just like the last game. 7 player games are over very quickly and I think most new players would like to time to settle in and get used to the game before it ends. The length felt appropriate here in terms of letting players get to know each other and the game, but not too long. 7 players would be cutting off a day essentially. In a 7 player game (assuming 5-2 start), one mislynch is 4-2, night kill is 3-2. Going into a 3-2 LYLO on Day 2 seems way too fast to me.

[Cryptonic]

My point is that, unless you're at LYLO, the TPRs can claim and town won't lynch without a CC. If no CC, then they're immune to lynch; but if there's a CC then town should pick between them and lynch the other tomorrow. The Mafioso ends up either losing a 1v1 or getting lynched the next day.

Of course, in a 5v2 most of the game is probably LYLO. 1v1'ing a TPR is still precarious, though.

No, because town can't claim without being cc'd. If Mafia doesn't CC TPR or doesn't claim TPR first, then they will lose regardless. That's the way the setup is.
You can't lynch between the TPR claims, because then you risk losing your TPRs. The only time you are forced to lynch between TPR and scum CC is when both TPRs claim and both Mafia's CC. And that's only possible if Citizen is killed n1. Better to listen to both Sheriff's results on who is guilty & innocent most the time.

Worst case scenario for Mafia:

5v2 - Mafia kills Citizen
4v2 - both Mafia CC TPR, lynch between Sheriff claims because Doctor prevents Sheriff from dying if he's alive. Consort shouldn't CC the Sheriff, because Consort is more important to Mafia; Consort CC's Doctor. Mafioso Lynched, Consort blocks Doctor, kills Sheriff.
3v1 - MYLO 50/50 between 2 Doctor claims.

How is that not balanced?

and I guarantee you, Doctor will NOT out themselves.


Also, you said lynch one and then the other tomorrow:

5v2 Mafia kills Citizen
4v2 2 Sheriff Claims, Town lynches Sheriff, Mafia kills Citizen
2v2, Town loses.

^that's why it's bad lol

[MattZed]

What. Why are you assuming D1 is no-lynch?

[Cryptonic]

What. Why are you assuming D1 is no-lynch?

Yea if D1 lynch is Mafia, obviously Mafia is fucked regardless of what happens.
Are you saying d1 TPR claims?

Also, what prevents Citizen from claiming TPR?

[MattZed]

Yea if D1 lynch is Mafia, obviously Mafia is fucked regardless of what happens.
Are you saying d1 TPR claims?

Also, what prevents Citizen from claiming TPR?
I'm saying D1 TPR claims to prevent themselves being mislynched, yeah.

What should stop Cit is knowing that town tends to win more if Citizens rarely fakeclaim. That, and the fact that this could draw out a CC from the real sheriff and just mess everything up.

[Cryptonic]

I'm saying D1 TPR claims to prevent themselves being mislynched, yeah.

What should stop Cit is knowing that town tends to win more if Citizens rarely fakeclaim. That, and the fact that this could draw out a CC from the real sheriff and just mess everything up.

So, hypothetically, what TPRs claim on D1

[Firebringer]

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

[DarknessB]

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

This is so scummy...

Firebringer

[The Godfather]

Firebringer has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Firebringer ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15644') (1 [L-0]): DarknessB ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596799')

[Firebringer]

OMGUS vote for you:
DarknessB

[The Godfather]

Firebringer has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Firebringer (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15644) (1 [L-0]): DarknessB (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596799)

[DarknessB]

Real response below:


Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Basically, it would put everyone in a crummy position. The mentor would have to be deceiving the mentee, the mentee might not trust the mentor as much (given the risk of being on different teams), or the mentor would have to play less aggressively (putting the mentee's experience above being competitive in the game). The whole thing is just rife with conflict of interest and against the point of a mentor. Mentors are supposed to be 100% on a mentee's side and acting in the mentee's best interests.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

Honestly, I don't think this was a problem at all and in fact, quit the opposite was the issue where mentors were absentee and mentees were clamoring for more help and direction, but not getting it from their mentors. I think mentees realize they are the ones playing the game and aren't just going to hand over the keyboard to the mentors to make posts. That having been said, there's a lot of value to active mentors who are really taking the opportunity to teach their mentees and expose them to ways of thinking about scumhunting, defending themselves, reading other players, etc. No one is saying do the work for the mentee, but being engaged is necessary, or else it's almost silly to be a mentor and just answer mechanical questions about how to vote and whatnot.

[SuperJack]

I don't remember anyone suggesting about mentors being in the game.
All that was suggested was putting in people who have a bit of fm experience just to help get things rolling.

[Frozen Angel]

Can you all stop lynching each other?

Also on topic of mentors.
I think mentors should be completely neutral party.

I know where Frozen was coming from, but I do think its a conflict of interest if the experienced players get scum roles and are trying to fuck up the town or vice versa. Its hard to teach someone when you are also have motivation to not teach them really how to scum hunt.

Mentors should be neutral, but I don't know how active they should be in the teaching process. How involved shoudl they become before they are just telling their Mentee what to think and post without actually helping them along with that.

:|

No you have no idea where I'm coming from . and it appears no one understand me.

just throw what I was saying away.

[Frozen Angel]

I don't remember anyone suggesting about mentors being in the game.
All that was suggested was putting in people who have a bit of fm experience just to help get things rolling.

yeah you did understand!

FA wants to give you a hug! :P

[Fatalis]

IMO there's no need for 'starter games', just have vanilla or near-vanilla setups that anyone can join. That should provide a wide skill range of players.

[Firebringer]

:|

No you have no idea where I'm coming from . and it appears no one understand me.

just throw what I was saying away.

;(
I love you Frozen.

[Yukitaka Oni]

Ya all are Fking town. I'm the confirmed scum
My role isJudge

[Gyrlander]

Ya all are Fking town. I'm the confirmed scum
My role isJudge

W8 I'll reveal as Marshall so you can lynch crypt, db and calix at the same time. Ty

[Yukitaka Oni]

W8 I'll reveal as Marshall so you can lynch crypt, db and calix at the same time. Ty
Calix
Cryptonic
eh? Who's the last one lol

[The Godfather]

Calix has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Calix ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/27116') (1 [L-0]): Yukitaka Oni ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596879')

[Frozen Angel]

Stop lynching poor Calix

I like her

and clearly you can't lynh her ever!

[Gyrlander]

Stop lynching poor Calix

I like her

and clearly you can't lynh her ever!

Okey, we'll let her live. At a cost.

Frozen Angel

[The Godfather]

Frozen Angel has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


Frozen Angel ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/27123') (1 [L-0]): Gyrlander ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596919')

[DarknessB]

Changed vote threshold to avoid further trolling.

[NoctiZ]

I completely agree. I made so many mistakes my first few games (still do!) and through all these years I remember explicitly the details of the game and what I learned from it moving forward. In my second game, I was Slenderman and basically a MM against a whole slew of experienced players and was quickly caught and killed. I lost, but even today I still remember all the tells I gave off and what I could have done better. I was even place on Crypt's S-FM ladder at one time.

We shouldn't be afraid of losing S-FM games. We should be more worried about not improving! And as Crypt says, this applies to all aspects of life :)

That was your second game? Pretty sure I was an Escort in that game and figured you out as a fake Escort claimer.. or maybe I'm mixing things up. Either way it was one of my earlier games, too. That was a lot of fun. :D

[BananaCucho]

Jesus what is this thread, a discussion or a game

Wall posts everywhere

[GoatseOntheCupboard]

/sign also [boat]banananacochoo[boat\]

[Whad]

There have been a lot of good ideas suggested here, and it looks like you will try a variety of different styles of beginner games. I just wanted to express that I'm available and willing to either play in games with new players or to mentor players in any capacity needed. This account here is new, but I have several years of FM experience under my belt on other sites and teaching/mentoring is something that I am passionate about!

Cheers,
Whad.

[Mesk514]

Cheers,
Whad.


This signature, that avatar, that hair cut = priceless! sign me up.