S-FM 171 Suicide Still Allowed

[MattZed]

WELCOME TO SUICIDE STILL ALLOWED
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Resveratrol.pdb.gif

Quick Links:
Setup (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/33231-S-FM-Suicide-Allowed)
Day 1 Start (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/34456-S-FM-174-Suicide-Still-Allowed?p=549314#post549314)
Night 1 Start (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/34456-S-FM-174-Suicide-Still-Allowed?p=550710#post550710)
Day 2 Start (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/34456-S-FM-174-Suicide-Still-Allowed?p=550833#post550833)

Players:
1. Thornholt
2. Kat-chan
3. deathworlds
4. Suntax
5. Toadette
6. RLVG
7. Spruance
8. NotPanda

[MattZed]

IT IS NOW DAY 1.

ANOTHER Vampire? How is that even possible? The townsfolk readied their suicide pills and prepared for another hunt. It should be just as easy this time, right?



https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5578/15011664395_d373b1471a.jpg

Living Players:
Thornholt
Kat-chan
deathworlds
Suntax
Toadette
RLVG
Spruance
NotPanda

Dead Players:
No one... yet.





Day 1 Ends at 8:00 PM PDT January 9th. (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+long+until+8:00PM+PDT+January+9th%3F)

5

[Spruance]

My suicide pill is ready! :P

Happy hunting

[MattZed]

*host bumps thread because it seems people have missed that the game started* <_<

[Toadette]

MattZed

[MattZed]

At least one player received their rolecard late. All rolecards have now been sent out.

[Thornholt]

Didn't miss it, trying to relax from people pissing me off in the other game. And just cause I find it funny and it'll help with relaxing: LET'S DO THE SAME THING! IT'LL WORK AGAIN!

RLVG

[Thornholt]

See ya to,orrroa, girlfriend is waiting for me

[deathworlds]

Sup scrubs. I'm probably not going to be talking much this day, because I don't know 5/7 of you, and I would like to get a read on your playstyles :)

[deathworlds]

Sup scrubs. I'm probably not going to be talking much this day, because I don't know 5/7 of you, and I would like to get a read on your playstyles :)

I retract this statement.

I will contribute greatly to town discussion.

[Toadette]

Didn't miss it, trying to relax from people pissing me off in the other game. And just cause I find it funny and it'll help with relaxing: LET'S DO THE SAME THING! IT'LL WORK AGAIN!

RLVG

I am going to agree with host WIFOM: MattZed made RLVG the bad guy again to try to trick us

RLVG

[deathworlds]

Let's state what we know right now.

We have 1 positive outcome of a lynch, and that is lynching the Vampire Lord (who I will now refer to as the VL).

We have 2 negative outcomes of a lynch, and that is lynching a Citizen, or a Jester. However lynching the Jester is really bad, because it increases the chances of the VL killing more citizens by converting a citizen upon lynch.

There are only 2 ways to kill the VL and that is via lynch or by taking a pill and the VL targeting you.

First we have to determaine if the VL will intentionally try to kill the jester. The VL hunting the Jester provides a few pros and cons.

PROS:
No risk in hunting jesters, because jesters can't take a pill.

CONS:
Doesn't play to the win condition of killing the citizens.
Removes potential distractions from the game, further unifying the town.

So what we need to determain is if the VL plans to play a high risk game, or a low risk game.

[deathworlds]

Spruance

[Toadette]

Let's state what we know right now.

We have 1 positive outcome of a lynch, and that is lynching the Vampire Lord (who I will now refer to as the VL).

We have 2 negative outcomes of a lynch, and that is lynching a Citizen, or a Jester. However lynching the Jester is really bad, because it increases the chances of the VL killing more citizens by converting a citizen upon lynch.

There are only 2 ways to kill the VL and that is via lynch or by taking a pill and the VL targeting you.

First we have to determaine if the VL will intentionally try to kill the jester. The VL hunting the Jester provides a few pros and cons.

PROS:
No risk in hunting jesters, because jesters can't take a pill.

CONS:
Doesn't play to the win condition of killing the citizens.
Removes potential distractions from the game, further unifying the town.

So what we need to determain is if the VL plans to play a high risk game, or a low risk game.

Or we can just lynch RLVG and win day 1 like last time :)

[deathworlds]

Or we can just lynch RLVG and win day 1 like last time :)

I would much rather pressure players today.

[Toadette]

I would much rather pressure players today.

Okay you do that.

Serious post - lynch every day, nobody suicide is probably the best strategy to win.

[Toadette]

Oh and if you're the vampire, you should just reveal yourself so we can lynch you and win. MattZed will give you MVP so it's all good :)

[deathworlds]

Okay you do that.

Serious post - lynch every day, nobody suicide is probably the best strategy to win.

Sounds like someone wants to make sure that his targets are zero risk.

[Toadette]

Sounds like someone wants to make sure that his targets are zero risk.

Sure, WIFOM that all you want. Vampire beware!

But honestly, suiciding at night gives unnecessary night kills to the vampire and makes his job a ton easier. We run better odds of winning by lynching every day without suicides.

[deathworlds]

Sure, WIFOM that all you want. Vampire beware!

But honestly, suiciding at night gives unnecessary night kills to the vampire and makes his job a ton easier. We run better odds of winning by lynching every day without suicides.

I honestly doubt that the VL will plan on randomly targeting people. I believe that he will have some amount of reasoning behind his attacks/lack of attacks.

[Toadette]

I honestly doubt that the VL will plan on randomly targeting people. I believe that he will have some amount of reasoning behind his attacks/lack of attacks.

Obviously. But realistically, unless EVERYONE suicides AND the vampire chooses to attack (he can choose to sit at home all cozy), the odds of someone that the vampire is attacking taking him out by suicide is very low. Odds are the person suiciding dies and turns a 1NK into a 2NK, 3NK, etc

[Toadette]

I guess what I'm trying to say is we have a better chance winning using all our lynches than trying to suicide hoping the vampire attacks us.

[deathworlds]

I understand where you're coming from. However this isn't a game of odds.

[Toadette]

I understand where you're coming from. However this isn't a game of odds.

Quit talking to me like I'm an idiot. Of course I know this isn't a game of odds. I understand exactly what this is.

[deathworlds]

Quit talking to me like I'm an idiot. Of course I know this isn't a game of odds. I understand exactly what this is.

I'm not trying to talk to you like an idiot, and I apologize if I came across that way.

[Toadette]

I'm not trying to talk to you like an idiot, and I apologize if I came across that way.

It's alright, I get a little on edge the later it gets.

[Kat-chan]

I retract this statement.

I will contribute greatly to town discussion.


Sup scrubs. I'm probably not going to be talking much this day, because I don't know 5/7 of you, and I would like to get a read on your playstyles :)

very fishy IMO ... first saying you will not talk now you will contribute though uuu very spicy


Let's state what we know right now.

We have 1 positive outcome of a lynch, and that is lynching the Vampire Lord (who I will now refer to as the VL).

We have 2 negative outcomes of a lynch, and that is lynching a Citizen, or a Jester. However lynching the Jester is really bad, because it increases the chances of the VL killing more citizens by converting a citizen upon lynch.

There are only 2 ways to kill the VL and that is via lynch or by taking a pill and the VL targeting you.

First we have to determaine if the VL will intentionally try to kill the jester. The VL hunting the Jester provides a few pros and cons.

PROS:
No risk in hunting jesters, because jesters can't take a pill.

CONS:
Doesn't play to the win condition of killing the citizens.
Removes potential distractions from the game, further unifying the town.

So what we need to determain is if the VL plans to play a high risk game, or a low risk game.

Nice re-posting the rules always help :D I mean we all knew all of that from before so it looks to me that you are trying to look helpful. Too tryhard for the first day IMO.


I guess what I'm trying to say is we have a better chance winning using all our lynches than trying to suicide hoping the vampire attacks us.

Yeah I mean we can use the suicide trick later when there are less players and when the chances are bigger


I understand where you're coming from. However this isn't a game of odds.

Actually, this setup is kinda random so it is about luck as well

deathworlds

[Thornholt]

what does WIFOM stand for? Wife infamously fatale or mediocre? work in families of mafia? winnable income format of moviemaking?

[Spruance]

self-defense mechanism activated.


deathworlds

[Suntax]

hello bitches
the comrade has arrived to not contribute for my new strat
brilliant plan we should all not say when we suicide as we will suicide at some point as it is a must for this game.

[RLVG]

Attempts a red herring to focus a joke projected at making attention towards me, by claiming Host has made me the same role as before just to trick you guys.

Toadette

[NotPanda]

Good evening o/

I was wondering, what exactly is the point of the Jester role? Like, in what way should it be considered when dealing with the game state? :o

[deathworlds]

Good evening o/

I was wondering, what exactly is the point of the Jester role? Like, in what way should it be considered when dealing with the game state? :o

We really can't do much about a jester except avoid lynching it.

[deathworlds]

what does WIFOM stand for? Wife infamously fatale or mediocre? work in families of mafia? winnable income format of moviemaking?

WIFOM is a refrenece to The Princess Bride, and it stands for Wine in Front of Me.

[deathworlds]

self-defense mechanism activated.


deathworlds

What a great way to respond to a vote.

[NotPanda]

We really can't do much about a jester except avoid lynching it.

... Yeah much like we can't do anything but try our best to avoid townies right? lol

I meant, what's the added game value of the Jester? In what way is he to be considered from Town, other than that the Jester role passes over to someone else for some reason?

[deathworlds]

... Yeah much like we can't do anything but try our best to avoid townies right? lol

I meant, what's the added game value of the Jester? In what way is he to be considered from Town, other than that the Jester role passes over to someone else for some reason?

Lynching the Jester is slightly worse than lynching a Citizen, however it is not game ending because Town doesnt lose when Jester is lynched. But we do turn a Citizen into a distraction, and the Citizen losses the ability to take the pill. I.E reducing our odds of winning.

[NotPanda]

Oh I see, so basically it prevents suicide related strategies huh?

I suppose that shouldn't be too much of a problem since the suicide mechanic in this format doesn't seem to be /too/ effective if we want the best odds right

[deathworlds]

Oh I see, so basically it prevents suicide related strategies huh?

I suppose that shouldn't be too much of a problem since the suicide mechanic in this format doesn't seem to be /too/ effective if we want the best odds right

Yeah, before we try any guessing on the VL's play we just wait for him to kill someone.

[RLVG]

Serious suggestion. Should we No Lynch just to see what kind of player the Vampire is based on if he attacks someone or stays back?

[deathworlds]

Serious suggestion. Should we No Lynch just to see what kind of player the Vampire is based on if he attacks someone or stays back?

I think we should lynch.

The question is who do we lynch.

[RLVG]

I think we should lynch.

The question is who do we lynch.

Why lynch the first day in this specific game? We could get far more information just based on what the Vampire is doing.

If lucky, he'll even get rid of the fucking Jester.

[deathworlds]

The thing is we won't know if he gets rid of the jester.

This is really the closest thing to a vanilla game I've ever played and I'm a wee bit confused on what we should do.

[Kat-chan]

^

Guys just look at him
- he comes in and acts helpful on Day 1
- he makes a long ass post about what's obvious (too tryhard rlly)
- then he insists on lynching somebody (ofc vamp wants that)
- then acts innocent like he doesn't know what to do

Imo a legit lynch we have here

[Spruance]

We have a 1/8 + 1/6 + 1/4 = 13/24 (.5417) chance to lynch the vampire if we lynch day 1 (and all after)

and this if we lynch day 2 ( and all after)
1/7, 1/5 1/3 = 71/105 (.6762)

Obviously lynching day 1 in this setup is risky, but there is another factor that is difficult to calculate
If the jester is in the remaining 3, it is possible he would force no lynch and the vampire, being intelligent would target the jester and win the tie.
Also the odds for not lynching day 1 include the fact that no one suicides and doesn't figure in the random jester kill, and our odds for success would be greatly diminished if the jester was lynched and a citizen took the bullet, whereas lynching day 1 accounts for that in the extra person left over on the last day (3 people left).

I think we should take the risk and not lynch day 1 as it increases our odds of success as long as no one suicides and we are careful not to lynch the jester.

[NotPanda]

Wait, so we don't lynch day 1? No suicides either? How do you suggest we clear our win condition then?

[deathworlds]

I am going to agree with host WIFOM: MattZed made RLVG the bad guy again to try to trick us

RLVG

Toadette wants to lynch 1 of the power players here without reason. This really screams scum to me.



Or we can just lynch RLVG and win day 1 like last time :)

See previous response


Okay you do that.

Serious post - lynch every day, nobody suicide is probably the best strategy to win.

Wants the VL to have no risk in killing people. Very scummy alligned post


Oh and if you're the vampire, you should just reveal yourself so we can lynch you and win. MattZed will give you MVP so it's all good :)

Troll Post


Sure, WIFOM that all you want. Vampire beware!

But honestly, suiciding at night gives unnecessary night kills to the vampire and makes his job a ton easier. We run better odds of winning by lynching every day without suicides.

Discussing probability, however the VL would like to target risk free targets. Scum friendly post


Obviously. But realistically, unless EVERYONE suicides AND the vampire chooses to attack (he can choose to sit at home all cozy), the odds of someone that the vampire is attacking taking him out by suicide is very low. Odds are the person suiciding dies and turns a 1NK into a 2NK, 3NK, etc

States obvious statistics.


I guess what I'm trying to say is we have a better chance winning using all our lynches than trying to suicide hoping the vampire attacks us.

Further discusses statistics.


Quit talking to me like I'm an idiot. Of course I know this isn't a game of odds. I understand exactly what this is.

Lashes out.


It's alright, I get a little on edge the later it gets.

Apologizes.

I really don't like Toadettes posts.

Toadette

[Kat-chan]

Lol we got a vamp right here guys lets get him

[Toadette]

Attempts a red herring to focus a joke projected at making attention towards me, by claiming Host has made me the same role as before just to trick you guys.

Toadette

Blah blah blah

[Toadette]

Serious suggestion. Should we No Lynch just to see what kind of player the Vampire is based on if he attacks someone or stays back?

OMG. WE ARE NOT NO LYNCHING

[Toadette]

Toadette wants to lynch 1 of the power players here without reason. This really screams scum to me.


lol you definitely haven't seen me play before

[deathworlds]

lol you definitely haven't seen me play before

lol I don't need to see someone play before to see their scum posts.

[Toadette]

lol I don't need to see someone play before to see their scum posts.

K.

[Kat-chan]

OMG. WE ARE NOT NO LYNCHING

Can we like lynch the deathworlds guy? he is so obvious

[deathworlds]

Can we like lynch the deathworlds guy? he is so obvious


lol okay i guess im obvious scum gg wow

Lol obvious jester play is obvious.

[Spruance]

I agree with RLVG that we shouldn't lynch today.

We don't have to skip if you guys don't want, but nothing productive will likely result until the game has been more narrowed down.

p.s. don't suicide night 1 lmao

[Spruance]

deathworlds

[Suntax]

I'm going to suicide night 1
or am I
in any case comrade suntax will live on in us all
I need to settle my kids down
give me a bit to get up to speed

[NotPanda]

Wait, so we don't lynch day 1? No suicides either? How do you suggest we clear our win condition then?


OMG. WE ARE NOT NO LYNCHING

Care to elaborate/

[RLVG]

The Vampire hasn't done anything evil yet, soooo he's not exactly evil, yet.

[Kat-chan]

Wow what a useless day then ... If we decide not to lynch then let's somehow end the day :D

[NotPanda]

Could he have done anything evil yet though? :")

[RLVG]

Could he have done anything evil yet though? :")

Vampires like to rape virgins apparently, but they're no roleblocker so theory is debunked.

Maybe it's a Happy Little Vampire Alucard who realized that his father Count Dracula was bad and decided to be all good.

#vampirelivesmatter

[Suntax]

You should all die
by all i mean deathworlds and jatchan scummy as he'll you two one is prob a jest and on vamp Lord
Deathworlds

[Kat-chan]

IMO deathworlds is the vamp for all the reasons I gave somewhere there :D Let's kill him and end this game Day 1 again :3

[Spruance]

1/8 + 1/6 + 1/3 + 1/4 (chance of suicide killing the vampire lord assuming he attacks) = 21/24 = 7/8 (.875) chance of winning.

This method is risky as if more than one person suicides we will lose, if the vampire doesn't attack night 2 our chances return to 13/24, if the jester is lynched day 2 then it will not work, or if the jester is alive in the remaining 3 and chooses not to side with the town.

If we do lynch today, and ONE person suicides night 2, our chances would be okay.

This obviously isn't a very safe method, but if you guys have someone in mind then we can vote on it I guess.

[Toadette]

1/8 + 1/6 + 1/3 + 1/4 (chance of suicide killing the vampire lord assuming he attacks) = 21/24 = 7/8 (.875) chance of winning.

This method is risky as if more than one person suicides we will lose, if the vampire doesn't attack night 2 our chances return to 13/24, if the jester is lynched day 2 then it will not work, or if the jester is alive in the remaining 3 and chooses not to side with the town.

If we do lynch today, and ONE person suicides night 2, our chances would be okay.

This obviously isn't a very safe method, but if you guys have someone in mind then we can vote on it I guess.

This is not the correct way of looking at it.

If we lynch every day with no suicides, we get at least 3 lynches. No lynch is purely random given we're voting who we think is scummy. That's 3 chances to peg the scum.

If people suicide with a low chance of killing the vampire, we get less lynch opportunities since the KPN will be higher.

Actually given there's 8 players, if we approach this strategy we could no lynch today to turn the final day into LYLO instead of MLYLO but I'd rather lynch given someone won't follow that plan and probably suicide

[Toadette]

Deathworlds

[Spruance]

Well I don't see an error in it.

1/8 chance we lynch the vampire lord today. Assuming we fail, a townie will die, and the vampire lord will kill night 1.

1/6 chance we lynch the vampire lord day 2. Assuming we fail, a townie will die, and one person will suicide, and the vampire lord will kill night 2. As there would be 5 people left in the game, 4 of them are potential targets, leaving the chance that the suicided person is targeted 1/4.

If the suicider is not targeted, there are 3 people left in the game, making it a 1/3 chance to lynch the vampire lord day 3. This assumes, though, that the jester is either already dead or is willing to vote with the town.

[Toadette]

Well I don't see an error in it.

1/8 chance we lynch the vampire lord today. Assuming we fail, a townie will die, and the vampire lord will kill night 1.

1/6 chance we lynch the vampire lord day 2. Assuming we fail, a townie will die, and one person will suicide, and the vampire lord will kill night 2. As there would be 5 people left in the game, 4 of them are potential targets, leaving the chance that the suicided person is targeted 1/4.

If the suicider is not targeted, there are 3 people left in the game, making it a 1/3 chance to lynch the vampire lord day 3. This assumes, though, that the jester is either already dead or is willing to vote with the town.

Because the odds of lynching the vampire are never purely random. We get to read each others motivation. You're assuming we just random lynch every day which is not going to happen. The most random lynch would be today.

[Spruance]

So then our odds would be higher then, right?

Assuming we have a higher than random odds of lynching the vampire lord.

[Toadette]

Think of Mafia odds that we lynch the scum as more likely if we have more lynches, versus purely random odds.

More lynches is good. If we no lynched today and someone suicides, we lose a lynch opportunity.

If the vampire doesn't ever attack, we gain a lynch.

[Suntax]

Nahh I'm backing off death seems like a good guy
unvote

[Spruance]

So are you assuming, then that a suicide is a random odd as well? Or just that coordination that involves only one person suiciding is difficult.

I'm just saying that if we do lynch day 1, our odds decrease significantly if either more than one person suicides, we lynch the jester, or no one suicides.
For these reasons it may be wise to not lynch as it leaves more margin for error, but like I said earlier I am fine either way.

[Toadette]

So are you assuming, then that a suicide is a random odd as well? Or just that coordination that involves only one person suiciding is difficult.

I'm just saying that if we do lynch day 1, our odds decrease significantly if either more than one person suicides, we lynch the jester, or no one suicides.
For these reasons it may be wise to not lynch as it leaves more margin for error, but like I said earlier I am fine either way.

How can you coordinate one person suciding without tippingnoff the scum? Too high risk

[Toadette]

Nahh I'm backing off death seems like a good guy
unvote

Suntax

[Suntax]

Comrade toadette why vote me in just a lowly depressed suicidal maniac

[Toadette]

Comrade toadette why vote me in just a lowly depressed suicidal maniac

Deal with it

[Kat-chan]

Nahh I'm backing off death seems like a good guy
unvote

I don't wanna start a bandwagon or anything but I really do feel weird about the guy just look at his posts O.o He comes says he won't be active but that he will contribute. Then tries to look helpful on Day 1. It is too tryhard IMO. The guy really doesn't want to die :D

Toa-chan don't vote for this Russian the other guy is moar kill worthy

[deathworlds]

I don't wanna start a bandwagon or anything but I really do feel weird about the guy just look at his posts O.o He comes says he won't be active but that he will contribute. Then tries to look helpful on Day 1. It is too tryhard IMO. The guy really doesn't want to die :D

Toa-chan don't vote for this Russian the other guy is moar kill worthy

Dying day 1 on the first game after my two season hiatus would be embarrassing :wm:.

[Suntax]

I don't wanna start a bandwagon or anything but I really do feel weird about the guy just look at his posts O.o He comes says he won't be active but that he will contribute. Then tries to look helpful on Day 1. It is too tryhard IMO. The guy really doesn't want to die :D

Toa-chan don't vote for this Russian the other guy is moar kill worthy

Your tunneling od him with no fully developed argument since your only argument is he does not wanna get lynched like everyone else

Also in gonna omgus toadette because I can Toadette

[Kat-chan]

Yeah because Day 1 is always random af :D

[deathworlds]

Yeah because Day 1 is always random af :D
Yeah.. In the mod.

I provided good reasoning behind why toadette is prob VL.

[Toadette]

Yeah.. In the mod.

I provided good reasoning behind why toadette is prob VL.

Pfff your "reasoning" is such a stretch.

[Kat-chan]

Yeah.. In the mod.

I provided good reasoning behind why toadette is prob VL.

Yeah your legit reasoning
- She wants to get rid of powerful player (He was the vamp last game and we lynched him Day1, it was just a joke)
- She stated obvious (you did the same)

very legit IMO

[Toadette]

Yeah your legit reasoning
- She wants to get rid of powerful player (He was the vamp last game and we lynched him Day1, it was just a joke)
- She stated obvious (you did the same)

very legit IMO

You. I like you.

Deathworlds

[Toadette]

Less than 6 hours. Doubt we'll get a lynch off.

I blame Mr No-Lynch king RLVG

[Toadette]

I really don't get though how we win day 1 last game

And this game no one wants to lynch?

[Kat-chan]

Well probably lynching day 1 wont change anything and if we lynch the vamp again day 1 we wont have a game again ... but without lynching its no fun!

[Kat-chan]

You. I like you.

Deathworlds

You. Wanna form an alliance?

[Suntax]

Deathworlds isbloody innocent I tell you your basing your lunch on no facts

[Kat-chan]

Because there can be no facts lol

[MattZed]

IT IS NOW NIGHT 1.

Despite their previous successes, the town could not find a vampire to murder today. Frustrated, they returned home. Would anyone attempt the gambit they had prepared?



http://img14.deviantart.net/0f39/i/2007/328/d/b/pill_bottle_by_ppdigital.jpg

Living Players:
Thornholt
Kat-chan
deathworlds
Suntax
Toadette
RLVG
Spruance
NotPanda

Dead Players:
No one... yet.






Night 1 Ends at 8:00 PM PDT January 10th. (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+long+until+8:00PM+PDT+January+10th%3F)

[MattZed]

IT IS NOW DAY 2.

It appears the town was not as lucky tonight. When they awoke, three of their fellow townsfolk were dead, and there were no vampire corpses to be found.

RLVG, Kat-chan, and deathworlds are dead.

RLVG left a last will:

You may think of me as the stubborn player who keeps staying around, making all these suicide jokes for empathy and blabla across different games.
Because of this, it gives me the perfect amount of WIFOM for certain players.

It's a long shot, but eh... CHEERS! If the Vampire doesn't get me, then uhhh FAIL, my gambit ain't working out.

deathworlds also left a last will:

Allahu Akbar!

Hopefully the VL targeted me if not. I suspect any of the following people and suggest you look over their posts.

Toadette and Spurance.

If they don't die tonight I suggest pressuring and lynching them.



https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5578/15011664395_d373b1471a.jpg

Living Players:
Thornholt
Suntax
Toadette
Spruance
NotPanda

Dead Players:
RLVG
Kat-chan
deathworlds





Day 2 Ends at 8:00 PM PDT January 12th. (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=how+long+until+8:00PM+PDT+January+12th%3F)

3

[Toadette]

What did I tell you? Turned a 1 night kill into 3. GOOD JOB GUYS.

Now we only get 2 chances to lynch. Given someone else most likely suicides, this could very well be our last chance.

[Toadette]

So I'm pretty sure Kat-chan was night killed, given that deathworlds and RLVG both suicided with a last will. Kat-Chan was probably killed in an attempt to frame deathworlds.

I don't know why deathworlds thought he would be targeted. He really didn't think that through.

I have a few things I need to do then I'll be back to do a thought dump given the remaining players. Since it's only 5 of us we should be able to do a quick run down of things.

[NotPanda]

That was extremely stupid of them

> tfw you take the suicide pill even though you have no proper facts or assumptions to work with

-_-

[Thornholt]

lol, that's a really bad start compared to the 1rst game XD. Also, we now know it wasn't RLVGa second time.

[NotPanda]

Lol of course, there is no real reason to assume that RLVG would be the vampire the second time around rofl

Well, bakatto suspected death worlds, and he killed himself, and they're both gone.

Uh, Suntax seemed fairly certain of deathworlds innocence. Maybe he can elaborate?

[Spruance]

lol...

Our chances of winning just decreased from over 80% to under 50%

Do we know that the jester is still alive?

[Spruance]

Comrade toadette why vote me in just a lowly depressed suicidal maniac

I think Suntax is jester

[Spruance]

deathworlds most likely suicided so we didn't waste a lynch on him.

I trust Toadette because he types a lot more than a vampire lord would.

Suntax is most likely jester.

I am willing to give NotPanda the benefit of the doubt.

I know that I am a citizen.

Therefore I propose we lynch Thornholt due to his lack of posting compared to the rest of us and his unfounded raw accusations.

Obviously I could be wrong since there are no leads in this game, and really the only thing I know to be absolutely true is that I am a citizen and so is Toadette.

Suntax could very well be a trolling citizen, and if this were true then Thornholt could be jester and NotPanda could be the vampire lord.

Even if no one suicides we are not guaranteed another lynch because it is essentially a 1/3 chance to lynch the jester (unless we decide to lynch me or Toadette).

I propose we lynch NotPanda today (becuase Thornholt riskily trolled on his first post) and if no one suicides, then we can lynch tomorrow as well.

notpanda

[Thornholt]

lol just because I made a joke and didn't post a lot (because of colder war), doesn't make meeither of those roles. I'll re-read the thread and give you my point of view

[Suntax]

Spurance I was joking around if your going off a shit post then your fucking stupid
Spurance

[Thornholt]

Toadette wants to lynch 1 of the power players here without reason. This really screams scum to me.




See previous response



Wants the VL to have no risk in killing people. Very scummy alligned post



Troll Post



Discussing probability, however the VL would like to target risk free targets. Scum friendly post



States obvious statistics.



Further discusses statistics.



Lashes out.



Apologizes.

I really don't like Toadettes posts.

ToadetteWow, I've never seen Toadette lashing so much. And deathworlds was making a pretty solid statement on her.

Quoted the statement.

Toadette

[Thornholt]

Blah blah blah

she even quoted dracula from hotel Transylvania! XD

[Toadette]

Wow, I've never seen Toadette lashing so much. And deathworlds was making a pretty solid statement on her.

Quoted the statement.

Toadette

What

[Toadette]

Spurance I was joking around if your going off a shit post then your fucking stupid
Spurance

Yeah I agree with the sentiment that is this jester. 100% OMGUS votes up to this point, trying to bait people into voting him.

[Toadette]

Wow, I've never seen Toadette lashing so much. And deathworlds was making a pretty solid statement on her.

Quoted the statement.

Toadette

Honestly, this is just such a bad post it makes me cringe so much. Thornholt was in RLVG's game with me, and witnessed my actual emotional outbursts, but is jumping on deathworlds last will here and exaggerating 1 post I made this game. Very very opportunistic. NotPanda is not as suspicious as this guy.

Thornholt

[Spruance]

Your call xd

We most likely won't get two chances though

thornholt

[Thornholt]

You outbursted in more than one post. You went against deathworlds a lot... and he turned out town. You also kept suggesting no one suicides and wanted town to lynch.

And now you're pointing your finger at me because I agree with most of what was said (of which you were against) on day 1.

Spruance, please re-read the thread and consider who you know wasn't town (the 3 dead). Then tell me who you really think looks like scum. If you do still find me and not panda to be those. Then go ahead, but know that you're probably going to mislynch.

[Toadette]

You outbursted in more than one post. You went against deathworlds a lot... and he turned out town. You also kept suggesting no one suicides and wanted town to lynch.

And now you're pointing your finger at me because I agree with most of what was said (of which you were against) on day 1.

Spruance, please re-read the thread and consider who you know wasn't town (the 3 dead). Then tell me who you really think looks like scum. If you do still find me and not panda to be those. Then go ahead, but know that you're probably going to mislynch.

Thornholt, TvT fight does not make one of the two people scum.

You probably killed Kat-chan to try to frame deathworlds. This argument you're making makes that very obvious. Since deathworlds suicided, you're going for the next best thing.

[Thornholt]

Thornholt, TvT fight does not make one of the two people scum.

You probably killed Kat-chan to try to frame deathworlds. This argument you're making makes that very obvious. Since deathworlds suicided, you're going for the next best thing.

Didn't even think of that... kind of weird of you to say that... as no one was going against me while someone was on you... wait who was it? Oh right! deathworlds...

Keep slipping, Toadette. once I'm dead, you'll get a kill and as long as no one suicides, it'll be 2v1 on you. Better think of a strategy and quick

[Spruance]

thornholt

We have time to talk this out... in the case that notpanda is vampire lord there is only one vote left to lynch and then if we are wrong we are at the mercy of the jester's vote, and if someone suicides then we lose entirely.

[NotPanda]

deathworlds most likely suicided so we didn't waste a lynch on him.

Waste? You do realize it's better for the town if they lynch someone in terms of numbers? Like, killing the vampire through suicide early on is nothing more than luck, killing yourself early on is sheer idiocy since you're only culling town numbers. It's much better to minimize losses considering the vampire is killing someone at night. Like what Toadette said, suicide isn't going to solve this.


I trust Toadette because he types a lot more than a vampire lord would.

Great argument! Because vampires usually always type x amount of words/day and he's above that margin right? -_-


Suntax is most likely jester.

Based on what!?!?


I know that I am a citizen.

Yeah, I doubt someone would state otherwise -_-


Therefore I propose we lynch Thornholt due to his lack of posting compared to the rest of us and his unfounded raw accusations.

Request a name change to kettle


Obviously I could be wrong since there are no leads in this game, and really the only thing I know to be absolutely true is that I am a citizen and so is Toadette.

Yeah, you seem to be insisting on this rofl


Suntax could very well be a trolling citizen, and if this were true then Thornholt could be jester and NotPanda could be the vampire lord.

Or you could be saying 'hey! I'm innocent!', say that Toadette is innocent too so maybe he'll defend you, and proceed to blame the others. Which is what you're basically doing now.


Even if no one suicides we are not guaranteed another lynch because it is essentially a 1/3 chance to lynch the jester (unless we decide to lynch me or Toadette).

I mean, if lynch you we win the game


I am willing to give NotPanda the benefit of the doubt.

I propose we lynch NotPanda today (becuase Thornholt riskily trolled on his first post) and if no one suicides, then we can lynch tomorrow as well.

notpanda

This guy xD

Yeah, he blamed like 3 people in his post rofl

Also, 'riskily trolled'?


Spurance I was joking around if your going off a shit post then your fucking stupid
Spurance

He said some stupid stuff, but remember that this is just a game, chill with the language dude


Honestly, this is just such a bad post it makes me cringe so much. Thornholt was in RLVG's game with me, and witnessed my actual emotional outbursts, but is jumping on deathworlds last will here and exaggerating 1 post I made this game. Very very opportunistic. NotPanda is not as suspicious as this guy.

Thornholt

'Emotional outbursts' xD

---

Regardless, I think we shouldn't forget that with the small amount of information we have now, we have to look at who is saying what to blame the others. In this case, I think Spruance is using a bunch of non-arguments to blame a bunch of people rofl.

For now,

Spruance

[Thornholt]

isn't suntax pat of this game too? he barely talked...

[Toadette]

Didn't even think of that... kind of weird of you to say that... as no one was going against me while someone was on you... wait who was it? Oh right! deathworlds...

Keep slipping, Toadette. once I'm dead, you'll get a kill and as long as no one suicides, it'll be 2v1 on you. Better think of a strategy and quick

What slips? You're pathetic.

[Thornholt]

notpanda's post made me rethink the RLVG game... you indeed di show an outburst... and were town compared to me who outbursted as scum.

I'm taking back what I said. Notpanda's case makes sense. I'm also suspicious of suntax eho barely talks... though his game is stopped... so he's probably taken by RL stuff.

Spruance

[Toadette]

Hmmm

[Toadette]

I don't really see the scumtell in Spruance at all

[Thornholt]

I don't really see the scumtell in Spruance at all

We're goiing in circles now. Reaad the thread and give mme your thoughtts tooadette. Perhaps we can wwork together onn this.

And that's how the cookie crumbles. *cough* *cough*

[Toadette]

We're goiing in circles now. Reaad the thread and give mme your thoughtts tooadette. Perhaps we can wwork together onn this.

And that's how the cookie crumbles. *cough* *cough*

What if I'm still not sure on you and don't want to work with you

But I will honor your request

[Toadette]

I don't like how Thornholt jumps on me

When NotPanda doesn't jump on board, he switches to Spruance

If I had to choose between Thornholt and Spruance, Thornholt feels scummier

[Toadette]

Also, Thornholt votes Spruance and is the 3rd person to vote him

NotPanda and Suntax's votes don't count because they misspelled them

Thornholt tried to early hammer Spruance and failed

Thornholt

That's why he switched. Thornholt scum.

[Toadette]

Spurance I was joking around if your going off a shit post then your fucking stupid
Spurance


Wow, I've never seen Toadette lashing so much. And deathworlds was making a pretty solid statement on her.

Quoted the statement.

Toadette


Waste? You do realize it's better for the town if they lynch someone in terms of numbers? Like, killing the vampire through suicide early on is nothing more than luck, killing yourself early on is sheer idiocy since you're only culling town numbers. It's much better to minimize losses considering the vampire is killing someone at night. Like what Toadette said, suicide isn't going to solve this.



Great argument! Because vampires usually always type x amount of words/day and he's above that margin right? -_-



Based on what!?!?



Yeah, I doubt someone would state otherwise -_-



Request a name change to kettle



Yeah, you seem to be insisting on this rofl



Or you could be saying 'hey! I'm innocent!', say that Toadette is innocent too so maybe he'll defend you, and proceed to blame the others. Which is what you're basically doing now.



I mean, if lynch you we win the game



This guy xD

Yeah, he blamed like 3 people in his post rofl

Also, 'riskily trolled'?



He said some stupid stuff, but remember that this is just a game, chill with the language dude



'Emotional outbursts' xD

---

Regardless, I think we shouldn't forget that with the small amount of information we have now, we have to look at who is saying what to blame the others. In this case, I think Spruance is using a bunch of non-arguments to blame a bunch of people rofl.

For now,

Spruance


notpanda's post made me rethink the RLVG game... you indeed di show an outburst... and were town compared to me who outbursted as scum.

I'm taking back what I said. Notpanda's case makes sense. I'm also suspicious of suntax eho barely talks... though his game is stopped... so he's probably taken by RL stuff.

Spruance

This looks bad Thornholt.

[Thornholt]

if you so desire. Like I said... if I die, vamp gets a kill. so don't suicide. you'll be 2v1. And Toadette, you're at a big risk after that since 2 cits will have died who accused you of being scummy.

I wiithdrew on you becausse you seem to lash only wwhen playing toewn. Pretty sure onlay you underrstands that last sentence and what to do with it.

I'm town, and I believe you are too.

[Toadette]

if you so desire. Like I said... if I die, vamp gets a kill. so don't suicide. you'll be 2v1. And Toadette, you're at a big risk after that since 2 cits will have died who accused you of being scummy.

I wiithdrew on you becausse you seem to lash only wwhen playing toewn. Pretty sure onlay you underrstands that last sentence and what to do with it.

I'm town, and I believe you are too.

No, you're making this "you look bad because a citizen who accused you died" thing up.

If we mislynch you we pretty much lose given the jester won't help the vote, so we have to get this vote right. I'm more confident you're scum than any other player left.

[Toadette]

NotPanda, I saw you reading. Chime in.

[Thornholt]

No, you're making this "you look bad because a citizen who accused you died" thing up.

If we mislynch you we pretty much lose given the jester won't help the vote, so we have to get this vote right. I'm more confident you're scum than any other player left.

That actually depends on the jester. He could choose to side with town too. I honestly just hope I didn't misread you. Otherwise I need to work on my reading :/

[Spruance]

The most likely outcome of this game is that Suntax (the salty jester), Thornholt and NotPanda (both of whom I accused and one who is guilty), will lynch me today, and the vampire lord will meta someone into suiciding will he kills Suntax to make sure the jester doesn't side with the town. (aka we lose).

I understand that since I am new to forum mafia some of my posts may make me seem guilty, but I am not. If you have to lynch me to see that, then so be it. My suggestion would be to not suicide and hope the vampire lord targets Suntax out of fear of suicides. As long as you do not vote Toadette tomorrow, it should be a 50/50 chance of winning the game.

I do not think at this point Thornholt is guilty, and if you must know why, I don't think the vampire lord would have posted I'm town in bold and underline.

Therefore, right or wrong, until I am lynched (or Toadette convinces me otherwise) my vote will remain on NotPanda.

NotPanda

[Toadette]

The most likely outcome of this game is that Suntax (the salty jester), Thornholt and NotPanda (both of whom I accused and one who is guilty), will lynch me today, and the vampire lord will meta someone into suiciding will he kills Suntax to make sure the jester doesn't side with the town. (aka we lose).

I understand that since I am new to forum mafia some of my posts may make me seem guilty, but I am not. If you have to lynch me to see that, then so be it. My suggestion would be to not suicide and hope the vampire lord targets Suntax out of fear of suicides. As long as you do not vote Toadette tomorrow, it should be a 50/50 chance of winning the game.

I do not think at this point Thornholt is guilty, and if you must know why, I don't think the vampire lord would have posted I'm town in bold and underline.

Therefore, right or wrong, until I am lynched (or Toadette convinces me otherwise) my vote will remain on NotPanda.

NotPanda

Town doesn't like to give up because town know they are town so this post feels weird

[Suntax]

To say this why would I get jester again as I did in the first one
Thornholt I am however certain issues with work are limiting my internet time

[Toadette]

I'm still inclined to think Thornholt is the vampire

[Toadette]

To say this why would I get jester again as I did in the first one
Thornholt I am however certain issues with work are limiting my internet time

Vote Thornholt then

[Thornholt]

Seems like we need notpanda and suntax to give us their thoughts. How are you so sure suntax is the jester?

[Toadette]

Seems like we need notpanda and suntax to give us their thoughts. How are you so sure suntax is the jester?

His votes are all OMGUS, he's trying to appear scummy

He won't vote trains that will result in a lynch.

[Thornholt]

Toadette, try using the same principle I used on you. How do you normally act when town/scum? Now think back on our other games, how did I act as town/scum? I do already have some sort of meta.

If that doesn't convince you, then I guess my read was wrong and I hope jester plays with town on the next day.

[Spruance]

I'm not giving up, I was just stating what the most likely scenario was as like you said, Suntax, Thornholt and NotPanda all voted me to some degree, which is enough to lynch me.

I still think it's NotPanda, and like you said he was viewing the thread and yet hasn't responded, most likely because he hasn't been adequately pressured.

[Thornholt]

What if jester actually claims... we lynch him but agree that whoever turns jester lynches with town? That could work right?

Or would it go against the rules since the now jester neefs to be lynched to win?

I think I lost myself in my argument

[Thornholt]

I'm not giving up, I was just stating what the most likely scenario was as like you said, Suntax, Thornholt and NotPanda all voted me to some degree, which is enough to lynch me.

I still think it's NotPanda, and like you said he was viewing the thread and yet hasn't responded, most likely because he hasn't been adequately pressured.

True... if all 3 of us are actually town, then all he has to do is wait on someone to get 2 votes then jump in to finish the game.

let's see how he handles the pressure then...

NotPanda

[Toadette]

Fine. I'll let NotPanda respond and if I don't like his response enough, I'll hammer.

NotPanda, come tell us why you're not vampire or I'll hammer you.

[NotPanda]

Relax guys, I didn't close my tabs while I was playing WoW kek

Eh lets see, general thoughts and questions

> Toadette, why do you think Thornholt is mafia?
> Spruance, how come you say Thorn is mafia, but you vote me? Like, I don't get why you're being so self-sacrificial in your posts if you're /sure/ you're townie.
> Thornholt, what are your thoughts currently? I get why you voted me now, but in general, who is vamp?

Generally, about the jester - how does he add in? Like, one of the remaining players is a jester, in what way does that help town? Does it? If this is a remake, then this is still my first game. Don't be too hard on me lol

[Thornholt]

hypothesis... if vamp killed jester, then we're 4 towns..... are we sure the jester didn't get killed?

My guess for vamp is:

Suntax - Someting tells me jester got killed...
Toadette - My biggest town read
Spruance - Seems desperate, biggest scum read
NotPanda - 50/50 reads

[NotPanda]

Well,

Spruance

I read most scum talk from him. You and toadette were arguing, but that was based on facts, he is just blaming to deflect attention from himself.

[Thornholt]

Well,

Spruance

I read most scum talk from him. You and toadette were arguing, but that was based on facts, he is just blaming to deflect attention from himself.



Fine by me, will wait on toadette's opinion though

[Thornholt]

2 hours left, come on toadette!

[Toadette]

I'm not voting spruance. Vote notpanda.

Are days only 24 hours?

[Toadette]

2 hours left, come on toadette!

We have 26 hours, not two. Did you realize that?

[Thornholt]

2 hours left, come on toadette!

nevermind, 14 hours left. I miscalclated... PHEW!

[Toadette]

Well,

Spruance

I read most scum talk from him. You and toadette were arguing, but that was based on facts, he is just blaming to deflect attention from himself.

How is his talk scum talk? I don't see it.

[Thornholt]

nevermind, 14 hours left. I miscalclated... PHEW!

oh wait... 8 PM not am... so 18 plus 6... plus 8... plus 12.... 26

God I'm so bad lolol

[Toadette]

nevermind, 14 hours left. I miscalclated... PHEW!

If you click the wolfram link, it shows the amount of time left which is 26 hours

I'm not convinced by NotPandas defense and weak vote on Spruance.

[Thornholt]

If you click the wolfram link, it shows the amount of time left which is 26 hours

I'm not convinced by NotPandas defense and weak vote on Spruance.

So we're going for panda then?

[Toadette]

So we're going for panda then?

At the moment that's where I'm leaning. Don't hammer Spruance if Suntax votes him. Still time left tonight to do some analysis.

[Thornholt]

At the moment that's where I'm leaning. Don't hammer Spruance if Suntax votes him. Still time left tonight to do some analysis.

so should I vote then? Suntax could hammer if I do.

[Thornholt]

btw, I posted another new setup. 10 players, with a different take on the game. Care to share your opinion?

LINK TO SETUP (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/34515-S-FM-Tales-from-the-Holt-of-Thorns-A-Court-Disorderly-Confused)

[Thornholt]

At the moment that's where I'm leaning. Don't hammer Spruance if Suntax votes him. Still time left tonight to do some analysis.

what makes you so sure about spruance though?

[NotPanda]

How is his talk scum talk? I don't see it.

Because he is making baseless assumptions to assign blame, just read my post

[Spruance]

Because he is making baseless assumptions to assign blame, just read my post

So the post that you made said that three townies did not survive the night. Does that mean all three of them were citizens or could one of them been the jester?

[Spruance]

mb not sure why I quoted NotPanda lol

[MattZed]

So the post that you made said that three townies did not survive the night. Does that mean all three of them were citizens or could one of them been the jester?
The text was merely for flavor; roles are not revealed upon death.

[Thornholt]

The text was merely for flavor; roles are not revealed upon death.

so like I said, jester might have died...

[Toadette]

so like I said, jester might have died...

Unlikely. Suntac is obvious jester.

[Thornholt]

Unlikely. Suntac is obvious jester.

well then panda it is

notpanda

I probably won't be around by the end of the day so I'm putting my vote in advance

[Spruance]

notpanda

I'll be around so we can discuss it further.

[NotPanda]

I honestly don't see why you'd vote for someone who's pointing out that someone is clearing simply assigning blame and pulling out arguments out of thin air, rather than the guy who's blaming and pulling out stuff out of thin air

[Spruance]

notpanda

I am going to go off on a limb and trust Thornholt.

Toadette it's now on you to finish the game once and for all.

[Thornholt]

I honestly don't see why you'd vote for someone who's pointing out that someone is clearing simply assigning blame and pulling out arguments out of thin air, rather than the guy who's blaming and pulling out stuff out of thin air

I am sriously confused.. from what I can tell:

Spruance won't vote for toadette or Thornholt, believes suntax is jester

Toadette won't vote for spruance, believes suntax is jester

NotPanda won' t vote for Thornholt

Thornholt is confused, believes suntax might be vamp

[Spruance]

Kat-chan would have had to be the jester then, and he didn't sound much like a jester in his posts. Also I don't think Zed would have said townies if Kat-chan were the jester. I think we have to take the risk and assume that Suntax is jester at least for the purposes of today.

[Toadette]

I really don't feel like rereading

NotPanda

[The Godfather]

NotPanda has been lynched! Stand by for the host's review and day-end post!


NotPanda ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/27584') (3 [L-0]): Spruance ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=551238'), Thornholt ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=551229'), Toadette ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=551277')
Spruance ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/27577') (1 [L-2]): NotPanda ('http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=551099')

[MattZed]

GAME OVER. THE TOWN HAS WON
Congratulations to Thornholt, Kat-chan, deathworlds, Toadette, RLVG, and Spruance!

The remaining town members gathered to lynch NotPanda. He proclaimed his innocence and tried to shift the blame, but the town would not be swayed. As the noose went around his next, NotPanda tried to assume bat form to escape; unfortunately, the sun was still up and his transformation caused him to instantly turn into dust. The vampire threat was eliminated.


I'm pleased with how this game went. The suicides, if anything, probably helped eliminate suspects.

[MattZed]

If I were to redo this setup, I would probably remove/redo the Jester role. With the suicides shortening this and probably future games, I doubt they have the 50% winrate they'd need to be competitive. Suntax was spotted rather easily in this game, but I am not sure how much better anyone could have done.

NotPanda did a fine job as first-time scum. Everyone has to go through that experience sometime. Hope to see you back for more of my setups!

deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.

Especially good job to Toadette, Thornholt, and Spruance for being to able to lynch the correct target in a 3v1v1. I'll let you three fight it out for MVP.

[DarknessB]

ika

[deathworlds]

deathworld's and RLVG's suicides made me lul. I take a lot of pleasure in knowing that I gave you an night action, and that you used it to kill yourself.


Just goes to show that people REALLY like having a button to press at night.

Toadette

For leading the town upon my death.

[DarknessB]

Maybe there should be two Jesters next time. Seems like Town keeps wining these games with decent margin to spare.

[Sen]

I doubt they have the 50% winrate they'd need to be competitive.
It's alright if some factions and/or players have it tougher than others. Third party factions are the most difficult to win with in most setups.

[Toadette]

ika

ika inspired me to lynch NotPanda

In the end it was NotPanda or Thornholt for sure, definitely not Spruance lol. Obvious Suntax was Suntax

[DarknessB]

ika

ika inspired me to lynch NotPanda

In the end it was NotPanda or Thornholt for sure, definitely not Spruance lol. Obvious Suntax was Suntax

You are wise and fair, Toadette. :toad:

[MattZed]

It's alright if some factions and/or players have it tougher than others. Third party factions are the most difficult to win with in most setups.
While this is true and no setup can be perfectly balanced, it's my design philosophy to give all factions a roughly equal win chance, skill and other factors being equal.

I may actually make the Jester an instant solo-win.

[DarknessB]

While this is true and no setup can be perfectly balanced, it's my design philosophy to give all factions a roughly equal win chance, skill and other factors being equal.

I may actually make the Jester an instant solo-win.

I think that's probably right. Better it be the skill of the players that dictates the outcome (to the greatest extent possible) vs. the likelihood of victory for the factions built into the setup. Reminds me of the Illuminati game where it was just an uphill fight for scum based on the setup that rolled.

What's nice also is that you have two different data points on how this game has gone with the two runs through of it.

[MattZed]

5

Heh.

[Sen]

I may actually make the Jester an instant solo-win.[/COLOR]
If you are going for balance, then it'd be probably better to replace the Jester altogether.
This is the only site I've ever seen where the Jester isn't bashed to death by players and mods alike; besides being the easiest role to win with, it's one of the few roles that punish the Town for lynching someone of a different faction.

Have you played Assassins in the Palace? It's a setup where there's a King and an Assassin. When lynched, the Assassin has one shot at figuring out the King and killing him, so the Assassin tries to live long enough to narrow down the living players while having more time to figure out his target.

You could make your Jester an Vampire Slayer (a flavour name for an Assassin) instead, and make it so he has one chance to kill the Vampire Lord after getting lynched. If he does it, the game ends and only the Jester/Slayer wins. If not, well, the Town gets punished for the mislynch by getting an extra death. That way you get to keep your third faction role which the Town should avoid lynching, while also giving it a win condition that requires some thinking at the very least.

Still, I think Jesters are bad in general, and should be kept away from normal, balanced setups.

MattZed

[MattZed]

If you are going for balance, then it'd be probably better to replace the Jester altogether.
This is the only site I've ever seen where the Jester isn't bashed to death by players and mods alike; besides being the easiest role to win with, it's one of the few roles that punish the Town for lynching someone of a different faction.

Have you played Assassins in the Palace? It's a setup where there's a King and an Assassin. When lynched, the Assassin has one shot at figuring out the King and killing him, so the Assassin tries to live long enough to narrow down the living players while having more time to figure out his target.

You could make your Jester an Vampire Slayer (a flavour name for an Assassin) instead, and make it so he has one chance to kill the Vampire Lord after getting lynched. If he does it, the game ends and only the Jester/Slayer wins. If not, well, the Town gets punished for the mislynch by getting an extra death. That way you get to keep your third faction role which the Town should avoid lynching, while also giving it a win condition that requires some thinking at the very least.

Still, I think Jesters are bad in general, and should be kept away from normal, balanced setups.

MattZed
Easy? I'm of the opinion that Jester is harder to win with than Survivor or pretty much any town or scum faction. You need to dodge night kills and get a lynch on you, all the while I've told everyone a Jester exists in the setup. As I had it in this game, a Jester lynch gives town the same numbers as a mislynch, and a nightkill on a Jester is basically a wasted kill.

AitP is hard enough for the Assassin as it is. Making him have to be lynched first is just unreasonable.

Like I said, I have considered scrapping the role entirely, but I am liking the solo win the more I think about it.

[Sen]

Easy? I'm of the opinion that Jester is harder to win with than Survivor or pretty much any town or scum faction. You need to dodge night kills and get a lynch on you, all the while I've told everyone a Jester exists in the setup.
There's a single role in this game with the ability to kill at night. If you get the only NK in the game to target you as a Jester, that says more about your play than about the role.


As I had it in this game, a Jester lynch gives town the same numbers as a mislynch, and a nightkill on a Jester is basically a wasted kill.
You are planning on making it an insta-win when lynched, which is effectively punishing the Town for lynching someone who doesn't share their victory conditions.

I was doing a Google search to see if I could find a discussion on the subject, and funnily enough, I found one on this site: http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/10343-Opinions-on-Jester-s-in-Forum-Mafia
It's an interesting poll.

That thread also included a link to a wiki article which sums up the idea very well:

Jester is held in profound distaste partly because it is easy to win with (any village idiot can get lynched Day 1) and partly because even in the best case it punishes Town for lynching someone who is not of their alignment. (...) Jester is generally considered a bastard role. (...) Most people will probably still tell you to simply not use Jesters.

That said, I only mentioned all of this because you said something about liking balance, and a Jester bring anything but that to a game. But there's nothing wrong with having one in your game if that's what you want.

[MattZed]

There's a single role in this game with the ability to kill at night. If you get the only NK in the game to target you as a Jester, that says more about your play than about the role.


You are planning on making it an insta-win when lynched, which is effectively punishing the Town for lynching someone who doesn't share their victory conditions.

I was doing a Google search to see if I could find a discussion on the subject, and funnily enough, I found one on this site: http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/10343-Opinions-on-Jester-s-in-Forum-Mafia
It's an interesting poll.

That thread also included a link to a wiki article which sums up the idea very well:


That said, I only mentioned all of this because you said something about liking balance, and a Jester bring anything but that to a game. But there's nothing wrong with having one in your game if that's what you want.
Does anyone actually empirical data on how well Jesters do in getting themselves lynched? What you've said and the quote you've cited are making it sound like Jester's succeed about 75% of the time. I think the figure, in a setup like mine, is probably closer to 25%. This is a huge difference and a point that needs to be settled in discussing if Jesters are balanced.

I don't really see a problem in punishing players for lynching someone. Sure, it's not ultra vanilla, but the point of such adding another faction, such as a jester, is to add nuance to the "find my faction, lynch the other faction" paradigm.

If I made the Jester an instant solo win, my goal would be a roughly 33-33-33 winrate among town-vamp-jester, and I don't think the setup would be too far off from that.

[Sen]

I doubt there's any data; this is a game without a fixed set of rules, and a playerbase with different skill levels. That said, whether a Jester achieves or not their victory, it's undoubtely the easiest win condition to achieve, since all you have to do is getting lynched, in a game where the Townies -and particularly the ones who are new to the game- are just too eager to see "slips" and "scum reads" in the most meaningless things, and where the scum is happy to lynch anyone as long as it's not one of them. That's like playing basketball and having a win condition of "miss a shot".

As for the problem with punishing the players for lynching a Jester, it's because it punishes the Town fr doing their job; whether the Jester is unexperienced and thus is blocking lynches, spamming or being generally annoying, or experienced and slowly but effectively "slips" in the scummiest way, the Town are just doing their job: getting rid of someone who is either scum or a someone preventing them from achieving their win con, and punishing someone for doing what they are supposed to is not cool.

[MattZed]

I doubt there's any data; this is a game without a fixed set of rules, and a playerbase with different skill levels. That said, whether a Jester achieves or not their victory, it's undoubtely the easiest win condition to achieve, since all you have to do is getting lynched, in a game where the Townies -and particularly the ones who are new to the game- are just too eager to see "slips" and "scum reads" in the most meaningless things, and where the scum is happy to lynch anyone as long as it's not one of them. That's like playing basketball and having a win condition of "miss a shot".

As for the problem with punishing the players for lynching a Jester, it's because it punishes the Town fr doing their job; whether the Jester is unexperienced and thus is blocking lynches, spamming or being generally annoying, or experienced and slowly but effectively "slips" in the scummiest way, the Town are just doing their job: getting rid of someone who is either scum or a someone preventing them from achieving their win con, and punishing someone for doing what they are supposed to is not cool.
I really must disagree with your sentiment that "it's undoubtely the easiest win condition to achieve," at least in a setup with a confirmed jester. There are three outcomes for a jester: You get lynched, you get night killed, or the game ends with you alive. Anything you do to try to look suspicious is done in the context that everyone is looking for that. See: Suntax this game. If you're obvious, no lynch for you. If you're subtle you increase your chances of being NK'd.

Again, I don't see what Jester is doing as a problem, just something different. I'm trying to make the game more nuanced than a simple round of "lynch the scummiest player day after day until all the scum are dead or we are." I don't see why "town should be better off for eliminating a non-town" has to be a thing.

[Thornholt]

My MVP vote would go to Toadette honestly. The way she played definitely gave me a clue towards reading her as town. Near the end I was really confused.

Toadette

[Orpz]

S-FM Ladder has been updated! (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/27398-S-FM-Ladder)

[NotPanda]

boo should have stayed on the thornholt train, realized too late that was the easy way out rofl

[SuperJack]

boo should have stayed on the thornholt train, realized too late that was the easy way out rofl

You did well. ^^ Gj.

[Spruance]

Maybe do 6 citizens 2 jesters and 1 vampire lord xd