M-FM XXVI The Frozen Throne Gamethread

[King Terenas Menethil]

The Frozen Throne
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/87/Warcraftiii-frozen-throne-boxcover.jpg

The Scourge Army
The Lich King (Ner’Zhul)
Anub’arak
Kel’Thuzad

Illidan's Legion
Illidan Stormrage
Prince Kael’Thas
Lady Vashj

Defenders of Lordaeron
Arthas
Antonidas
Lady Jaina Proudmoore
Malfurion Stormrage
Uther the Lightbringer
Muradin Bronzebeard
Shandris Feathermoon
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner
Tyrande Whisperwind
Medivh
Falric
Marwyn
Thrall
Little Timmy

Players
1 M-FM Silvermoon (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15621-M-FM-Silvermoon)
2 M-FM Quel’thalas (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15622-M-FM-Quel-thalas)
3 M-FM Lordaeron (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15623-M-FM-Lordaeron)
4 M-FM Hearthglen (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15624-M-FM-Hearthglen)
5 M-FM Stratholme (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15625-M-FM-Stratholme)
6 M-FM Dalaran (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15626-M-FM-Dalaran)
7 M-FM Northrend (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15627-M-FM-Northrend)
8 M-FM Plaguelands (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15628-M-FM-Plaguelands)
9 M-FM Andorhal (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15629-M-FM-Andorhal)
10 M-FM Frostmourne (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15630-M-FM-Frostmourne)
11 M-FM Anasterian Sunstrider (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15631-M-FM-Anasterian-Sunstrider)
12 M-FM Invincible (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15632-M-FM-Invincible)
13 M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15633-M-FM-King-Magni-Bronzebeard)
14 M-FM Kil’jaeden (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15634-M-FM-Kil-jaeden)
15 M-FM Archimonde (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15635-M-FM-Archimonde)
16 M-FM Mal’ganis (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15636-M-FM-Mal-ganis)
17 M-FM Princess Calia Menethil (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15637-M-FM-Princess-Calia-Menethil)
18 M-FM Tichondrius (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15638-M-FM-Tichondrius)
19 M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15639-M-FM-Captain-Luc-Valonforth)
20 M-FM Sheep (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15640-M-FM-Sheep)



Graveyard
1 M-FM Silvermoon (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15621-M-FM-Silvermoon)- Footman
15 M-FM Archimonde (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15635-M-FM-Archimonde)- Beguiler
8M-FM Plaguelands (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15628-M-FM-Plaguelands) - Footman
17M-FM Princess Calia Menethil (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15637-M-FM-Princess-Calia-Menethil)- Detective
12 M-FM Invincible (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15632-M-FM-Invincible)- Enforcer
10 M-FM Frostmourne (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15630-M-FM-Frostmourne)- Architect
14 M-FM Kil’jaeden (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15634-M-FM-Kil-jaeden)- Footman
13 M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15633-M-FM-King-Magni-Bronzebeard)- Footman
11 M-FM Anasterian Sunstrider (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15631-M-FM-Anasterian-Sunstrider)- Escort
18 M-FM Tichondrius (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15638-M-FM-Tichondrius)- Blacksmith

Setup (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/27189-M-Fm-The-Frozen-Throne)
Day End (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=saturday+8%3A00+pm+cst)

11

Notes
Ask Questions in Green
Receive Answers in Red
Avatars must be chosen day 1. After that no switching them.
Invisible Mode isn't mandatory.
Day 1 is 24 hours.
Also if a majority want nights to be longer than 24 hrs to 48 I will change them, but atm they are 24 hr nights. PM me if you want them longer. N1 will be 48 hrs.
Good Luck and Have Fun

[M-FM Dalaran]

And it starts

[M-FM Invincible]

And it starts

So it does, how do you do?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

M-FM Invincible

Not so invincible now are we?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

You can vote him, it just won't end in a lynch if it's him. The gallows won't work on him.

[M-FM Hearthglen]

M-FM Dalaran

Because avatar is creepy.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Also before anyone even THINKS about doing it, I just want to throw out there that anyone who starts speculating about the possible roles in exact detail will receive a good old-fashioned whooping from me. Trying to meta the host does jack shit.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

I think the host included roles that match the setup.

Can we play fight? I call the pillow.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I think the host included roles that match the setup.

Can we play fight? I call the pillow.

You can have it since you'll be biting down on it..

I don't care if you want to talk about possible roles, that's all fine and dandy but I don't want to see shit like "everyone post your complete role list of what you think is a possible setup and why". Shit makes me mad because it's useless. We will probably have more information to use on D2 to complete a possible role list anyway but you can only assume how many citizens there are in the game which is why it's overall pretty stupid in my eyes and less than useful.

[M-FM Kil'jaeden]

M-FM Mal'ganis
For speculating on roles.

I suspect that typing these names will get very annoying very quickly.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Kiljaeden, you thought that was serious? I just said the mod followed the rules. lol

Plaguelands, duh.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Kiljaeden, you thought that was serious? I just said the mod followed the rules. lol

Plaguelands, duh.

You say duh, I have seen some shit.

[M-FM Kil'jaeden]

Kiljaeden, you thought that was serious? I just said the mod followed the rules. lol

Plaguelands, duh.

You thought that was a serious vote?

[M-FM Dalaran]

I don't care if you want to talk about possible roles, that's all fine and dandy but I don't want to see shit like "everyone post your complete role list of what you think is a possible setup and why". Shit makes me mad because it's useless. We will probably have more information to use on D2 to complete a possible role list anyway but you can only assume how many citizens there are in the game which is why it's overall pretty stupid in my eyes and less than useful.
M-FM Plaguelands
I found the wolf guys. Gg

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I found the off-siter guys. Gg

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Aren't we not supposed to com hunt?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Aren't we not supposed to com hunt?

It was just stating a fact that using the term "wolf" is not common on this site. But after all, anyone could say that. I didn't plan on prying any further.

[M-FM Tichondrius]

M-FM frostmourne

Because you killed my grandmother.

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

Introduction to Topology

M-FM Kil'jaeden

his nammmme is tOo forrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreing

^learn to recognize symptoms of a stroke

I'm bringing sexy back

[Leech]

You can have it since you'll be biting down on it..

I don't care if you want to talk about possible roles, that's all fine and dandy but I don't want to see shit like "everyone post your complete role list of what you think is a possible setup and why". Shit makes me mad because it's useless. We will probably have more information to use on D2 to complete a possible role list anyway but you can only assume how many citizens there are in the game which is why it's overall pretty stupid in my eyes and less than useful.

TLDR.

[M-FM Frostmourne]

M-FM frostmourne

Because you killed my grandmother.

You got it all wrong. Your father killed your grandmother. Maybe you should kill your father?

[M-FM Silvermoon]

Hello everyone!

[M-FM Silvermoon]

M-FM Plaguelands

[M-FM Silvermoon]

There's no reason not to post speculation.

[M-FM Tichondrius]

There's no reason not to post speculation.

This is very true.

[M-FM Hearthglen]

TLDR.

M-FM Archimonde


Srs vote. He's too impatient.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

There's no reason not to post speculation.

There's no reason to take these speculations into account for anything at this point.

[M-FM Stratholme]

Still didnt got that mount out of stratholme such a pain.

[Spider]

Woof

[M-FM Dalaran]

General Mechanics + Rules
Lynch is set at 51% of Town.

Architect- Target 2 people during the day to bring into a night chat anonymously together. You get 1 post in the night chat, sent in during the day, and you have permissions to read the night chat.

Armorsmith- Armor a player with a manual use bullet proof vest at night.
They may use this bulletproof vest in addition to their night actions.
You may not give a bulletproof vest to yourself.
Bulletproof vests protect from an infinite amount of basic night kills.

Blacksmith- Arm a player with a 1-use gun at night.
They must sacrifice their night action to use the gun at night.
Cannot give yourself a gun.

Bodyguard- Guard a player at night. Should they be attacked you will protect them. You will take the attack for them, and deal the damage back to the attacker. You cannot be healed to prevent death from a successful guard.
You may not guard yourself.

Bus Driver- Swap 2 players at night. Those that visit one will effect the other.
Should your swapping cause a killing role to attempt to kill itself it's attack will pierce invulnerability. You may swap yourself.

Footman- No night action. Your Last Will will be public upon your death.

Coroner- Autopsy a dead player at night.
You will learn their Role, Death Description, Night Targets, and Last Will.

Detective- Track a player at night. You will learn the player that they visited.
Your Track will bypass invisibility.

Doctor- Heal a player at night. This player can survive an additional attack at night.
You can not heal yourself. Doctor can prevent conversions to mafia/cult.


Enchantress- Lure a player at night. They will be forced to target you for that night.
Repel a second player. Should the second player visit you they will visit and effect the player you Lured. You can not Lure or Repel yourself.

Escort- Role Block a player at night. This prevents them from using their action unless they are Immune to role blocking.
Should you role block an immune player you will be notified.
You can not Role Block yourself.

Investigator- Inspect a player at night to learn their Investigator Pairing.
You can not Inspect yourself.

Jailor- Jail a player during the day.
You may only Jail following days in which a player was not day killed.
They are removed from any night chat the following night.
They are prevented from acting that night, regardless of Immunity to role block.
They are prevented from taking damage from basic kills.
You may anonymous interrogate them.
You may Execute them.
Executions bypass all Invulnerability.
Captives are released at the start of the next day.
You may not Jail yourself.

Journalist- Interview a player during the day.
At the start of the following night the player will be notified of the interview and will write an Article for you to anonymously publish the following morning.
You may not Interview yourself.

Lookout- Watch a player at night. You will observe all players that visit the Watched player. Your Watch will bypass Invisibility.

Shaman- Manipulate a dead player to force them to act out their night power once again. You may force dead players to visit yourself. Cannot use killing roles. If role is out of charges shaman bypasses it with one free use after that the shaman can't use them anymore. If they died with 3 charges then shaman can use it 3 times but not consecutively. X3 Charges

Sheriff- Check a player at night. You will learn the player's alignment. Town/Mafia/Cult

Spy- Spy on a player at night. You will detect any feedback that player gets.
You also detect the Orange Mafia night kill.

Veteran- Alert at night to kill all visitors. The kill doesn’t pierce immunity.

Vigilante- Shoot someone at night and attempt to kill them.
You may not shoot yourself. 3x Charges.





What is considered the town?

And without some speculation as to how roles will play out or what roles are in the game we are in for a very dull D1. Even if the discussion itself is of little value to the game itself it will still provide some insight to the level of skill a player has, the amount of attention he pays to detail and how he reasons things out. All these things are invaluable tools to players that would hunt for a slip or divine the motive behind a players words.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

I am a government and a nation
i win

[M-FM Frostmourne]

I am a government and a nation
i win

i am the sword that killed the host. I think i win.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

i am the sword that killed the host. I think i win.

Who would say you won if there is no host? take that

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

M-FM Dalaran

I don't like people who are fake. You've faked being new, but anyone actually new here would be referring to mafia and not wolves because that's the common reference here. I could see where someone was going with you being the offsister but even an offsiter would know that a majority of the town to lynch means a majority of the living players. The speech also suggests that he's trying to put forth that he's knowledgeable as the offsiter does. He also attempts to minimize the value of all content given.

It goes without saying, this is a serious vote.

[M-FM Frostmourne]

Who would say you won if there is no host? take that

How would i know? im just a sword.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

M-FM DalaranIt goes without saying, this is a serious vote.

That quick?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

That quick?

How long is the required waiting period before voting someone who is faking who they are? Sheep me.

[M-FM Dalaran]

M-FM Dalaran

I don't like people who are fake. You've faked being new, but anyone actually new here would be referring to mafia and not wolves because that's the common reference here. I could see where someone was going with you being the offsister but even an offsiter would know that a majority of the town to lynch means a majority of the living players. The speech also suggests that he's trying to put forth that he's knowledgeable as the offsiter does. He also attempts to minimize the value of all content given.

It goes without saying, this is a serious vote.

Because I said 1 word in a post I am a fake person? That is just not a nice thing to say at all. That point half way through where you crossed over from talking to me to advising the town (In white) left too much room for me to make assumptions on what you meant. Could you clarify what you trying to say? And yes; I consider the posts today to be pretty void of content.

This game I am going to try to focus on tone. The tone of the day chat plays a huge part in how productive we are as a whole. Today we are all friends and on pretty even footing. I believe we can be productive and keep it light at the same time. There is no need to totally skip out on content so we can giggle and troll. Maybe tomorrow we will be calling etch other imbeciles and get hostile but I see no reason to waste a glorious day of chat.

[King Terenas Menethil]

What is considered the town?


Everyone in the game in this case. So all 20. You need 11 of them to lynch.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

We are not all friends. Not even close. There's at least six enemies to me in the game. So don't even try it.

If you have tone to focus on, then today's posts are not "devoid of content" your words.

Let's try assuming you are new.

You are new. You come onto a site, called sc2mafia, and assume wolves rather than mafia are in the setup. Nothing even remotely suggest wolves. This limits the possibility that you're new to very remote at best as someone new would assume mafia. The fact you attempted to reinforce this with a question that even a moderate player of social deduction could figure out. 51% of the town must logically mean 51% of the group. It's not like we automatically eliminate scum votes from the lynch. That would make the game boring and pointless. Such a question is fake.

So if you want me to move, I'll need to see something genuine from you.

[Spider]

Woof. You are so mean. But you have typed some words which. Woof.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Genuine you say?

Well for starters I really do not care if you move or not. I am reading your FoS as: This player is pretending to be from another site so he is scum. Well that tickles me pink and I doubt anyone would read as much and agree to jump in your train bid.

I do not think you actually believe I am trying to make myself look like I am from another site. Obviously the question was silly. All I had to do to get that answer was look at the votes to lynch. I find players are more willing to ask questions when its the 'norm' and not an outstanding action. I do not think I have ever played an open game where someone asked some question and I had to stop and say "Man, I didn't even think of that". It helps to have multiple people's thoughts to dig through and those simple discussions often lead to some interactions (Just look at ours)

I like to give people the benefit of a doubt so I am trying to avoid focusing on the possibility you are just trying to leech some town cred by misrepresenting me. That said I see your posts as more of a reaction fish than anything else. It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

I did forget to emphasize the tone also indicated you were impersonating the outsider. My bad.

What exactly are you claiming I misrepresented? I actually do think you're trying to make yourself look like the offsiter or new. Whatever it is, it is not you, and that is scummy. So if you want to play the game, drop the pretenses.

As you said, All I had to do to get that answer was look at the votes to lynch?. Then why ask? Games on this site, players have no difficulty asking questions. Also, trying to create a site norm, is also very agenda driven posting, rather than scumhunting posting.

It does help to have multiple people's thoughts and if I'm completely baseless, they will let me know. Regardless, we are totally out of RVS now so I feel fine taking a shot even if wrong.

[M-FM Dalaran]

When interviewed by a journalist would my response be posted verbatim or is the article revised by the journalist for publishing the following day? For example would I be able to include a message for the journalists eyes only?

[M-FM Lordaeron]

I am reading your FoS as: This player is pretending to be from another site so he is scum.

10/10 makes me cry everytime reading and I am agreeing
Give wizard city Dalaran a chance.

Mal'ganis, do you have a better case?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

It's page 1, of course not. He could be lying town, but whatever it is, it's not helpful and needs to stop.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Sure Heres a few.


I found the wolf guys. Gg
How serious I am in this post

You've faked being new ... The speech also suggests that he's trying to put forth that he's knowledgeable
You directly contradict yourself here in the same comment. This suggests you are just trying to come up with reasons to say I am evil and that you do not even believe in what you are writing. Am I pretending to be new or am I pretending to be experienced? Kindly make up your mind.

He also attempts to minimize the value of all content given.
This was in response to me explaining the value I saw in talking about the setup. There is no way you can make a logical connection there unless you want to reference posts I had not even made at the time you said this.

We are not all friends. Not even close. There's at least six enemies to me in the game. So don't even try it. Insinuating I was talking about alignment (Painful bid for town cred here)

Even in this latest post you ask questions that I literally just answered. Prior to our conversation I did poke a player which I also wrote in the last post. Please take a moment and read my last post. This is starting to look like you do not care what it is I am saying. That your questions are just to give the impression to others that you are attempting to find scum.

You seem to be trying hard to grasp at straws. Why are you so desperate to make me look scummy? I would be very interested in hearing you explain yourself.

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

TLDR.

fuck you

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

just refreshed page and like 20 new posts popped up, what the fuck

i now understand the struggle of archimonde

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

What are your thoughts on Daralan, Captain?

[Spider]

Woof. You are extreamly slow at refreshing. Woof.

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

What are your thoughts on Daralan, Captain?

Town

[M-FM Dalaran]

What are your thoughts on Daralan, Captain?

Well then. I was not going to chase it here but I read you as experienced as in you have played at least a few games, too much to be this dodgy unintentionally. I read your push on me as hollow and an effort to appear to be scum hunting while fishing for town points. I see you as leaning slightly scummy and am interested to see how you react to a bit of pressure.

M-FM Mal'ganis

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

And there's the OMGUS. I was wondering how long it would take.

Captain, explain to me how Darlan is town please. Maybe he's deliberately being fake but there's nothing real about his posting so far.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Why explain your scummy actions or even explain how 'faking com leads' relates to alignment when you can just dodge questions. You do realize I am just going to keep poking you until you hit the rest of the towns radar or you take a moment and make some sense.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

Mal'Ganis does not feel like town

[Spider]

Woof. M-FM Lordaeron touches people. Woof.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

Woof. M-FM Lordaeron touches people. Woof.

I have you know Im a government so we touch a lot

[M-FM Dalaran]

Mostly pockets?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Why explain your scummy actions or even explain how 'faking com leads' relates to alignment when you can just dodge questions. You do realize I am just going to keep poking you until you hit the rest of the towns radar or you take a moment and make some sense.

Faking com makes you harder to read. Townies want to be easy to read. I kinda figured this was common sense. There's zero reason to make yourself harder to read.

You can keep poking me but anyone who actually knows me (rather than attempt to impersonate me) knows that I'm aggressive but trying to be more cooperative. So yes, I do want people to explain how you actually are town and how breaking out of RVS is scummy which you certainly are implying is scummy.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Faking com makes you harder to read. Townies want to be easy to read. I kinda figured this was common sense. There's zero reason to make yourself harder to read.

You can keep poking me but anyone who actually knows me (rather than attempt to impersonate me) knows that I'm aggressive but trying to be more cooperative. So yes, I do want people to explain how you actually are town and how breaking out of RVS is scummy which you certainly are implying is scummy.

To be direct- I never tried to pretend to be you. I have no idea who you are and I have no idea where this idea came from. I consider com hunting a total waste of time because if you are wrong all those 'meta tells' you were playing off have screwed up your read. Also a lot of people seemingly depend on others reading their coms for their defense (Which I find slightly BM.) "If you knew me this is how I play every time I am town." Thats a shitty cop out and half breaks the purpose of having accounts to begin with. If the host wanted com meta he would not have us playing on anons to begin with.

I think you are scummy because you misrepresent what I am saying. You dodge questions and your FoS doesn't look like you put very much thought into it. You seemingly did not even bother to read my answers to your questions and you contradict yourself in your statements.

I try to be open minded. I am not saying "I am certain you are scum". I am just saying some of your behavior sets off alarms for me and the lack of explanation from you as to your thought process behind your comments makes me extremely uncomfortable.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Dalaran, I've asked you what you dodged. You haven't answered me. I don't know what it is I'm not explaining.

You haven't given an explanation for your pointless questions (the journalist is another).

It's incredibly frustrating that I'm trying to have a dialogue and all I'm getting is unexplained conclusions. If you are town, this is not helping and we are having an epic failure of communication.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Depending on the answer you may be able to give a sort of private message to the journalist when he interviews. This would be very useful for things like the journalist confirming himself to that player via code or communicating information you do not want to be public. Such as if you were healed/role blocked some specific night and want that info known to confirm a doc/escort claim down the road.

These are all very useful things you can do with a journalist depending on how the host plays the role.

I agree that we have some communication issues. The rest of the information is in the previous posts.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

All theoretically accurate, but it should have been asked pregame. The fact you're just asking now looks like grandstanding. The thread has been open for weeks if not months to elaborate. The journalist question comes to light now, really? It looks like diversionary tactics but maybe I'm on tunnel vision. That's my problem. It's useless baseless setup spec. Plus, we have no way of knowing a journalist even exists.

The biggest thing that gives me pause is scum engaging in that after multiple references to punishing a player for such seem a little foolish and suboptimal for scum.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Honestly, I can totally see where Mal'ganis is coming from and I at the same time I can understand Dalaran's explanations (even if I do not agree with some of his ideas). What I'm seeing here though is a lack of proportionality between the inconsistencies found and the conclusions drawn from them. What I mean is that what you guys are arguing as scummy isn't scummy enough to seriously FoS someone.

This conflict can be solved more easily if you stop posting a lot at once and rather ask a concise question you want answered from the other. It makes it a lot more likely that you will find what you are looking for in the other.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

I should reflect on this some and today is international table top gaming day. Going out to friends for fun. :) I will check in periodically but I'm not sure if I'll be able to get a day 1 lynch off.

Plaguelands, I'd like you to elaborate on how Dalaran can be town. Even if I was wrong (still don't think I was but I'm more open), let's at least get a town out of this.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Plaguelands, I'd like you to elaborate on how Dalaran can be town. Even if I was wrong (still don't think I was but I'm more open), let's at least get a town out of this.

Well, I didn't say that whatever he said makes him town, but it doesn't make him scum in my eyes either. He's rather neutral leaning slightly scummy to me. I'll explain.


M-FM Plaguelands
I found the wolf guys. Gg

He is using off-site lingo. We can only draw the conclusion from this that he either slipped and is from another site or he is faking being from another site to be harder to read. It's not a big deal either way.


What is considered the town?

And without some speculation as to how roles will play out or what roles are in the game we are in for a very dull D1. Even if the discussion itself is of little value to the game itself it will still provide some insight to the level of skill a player has, the amount of attention he pays to detail and how he reasons things out. All these things are invaluable tools to players that would hunt for a slip or divine the motive behind a players words.

I agree the question he asked is contradicting the impression you'd get from someone using the word "wolf", namely as you said: This person is new because he cannot draw an obvious answer by himself. Then he does a 180 and starts talking from experience/knowledge, giving off the impression that he has a few games under his belt and therefore formed a solid opinion on how a D1 should look like (an opinion I don't agree with completely but there has always been opposing opinions like this on D1).


This is enough to explain what problem you have with Dalaran because at this point you have put a FoS on him. So why do I not see Dalaran as scummy as you do? It's because the conclusion you can draw from Dalaran's play so far cannot lead to him being scum.

Why would a player fake being new? The obvious answer to me is: He wants to avoid attention by seeming less skilled than he is. Who would want to seem like that? Scum.. and TPRs. Also citizens faking TPRs, if we want to add another WIFOM layer. I wouldn't FoS someone based on that, I'd probably only call him out to that.

Now for another matter: he didn't even succeed at faking being new. As I explained, the opinion he gave looked to be from someone who is experienced. So can we really say that Dalaran tried to fake being new if he didn't even seriously try and failed at this in the very same post he attempted it?

I hope this accurately reflects my view on why Dalaran's behaviour doesn't seem scummy to me up to that point.

Now because you also touched upon it: It is indeed questionable why Dalaran would ask questions now instead of pre-game, especially because the answers to them are not very hard to figure out. They are very simple questions and thinking of them should have happened pre-game. This seems pretty scummy because as you said, it's an attempt to gain easy townpoints (even if not many, I don't award town points like candy, don't know about you guys). Dalaran's defense though is that he wanted to create the norm that asking questions should be normal (if I understood that correctly). While unnecessary because people have always asked questions during games the whole time I've been on this site, I can see where he is coming from and while his defence does not clear him completely in my eyes, I decided to give him the benefit of doubt because it's D1 and the game has just started out.

Conclusion overall: Slightly scummy, nowhere near enough to cast a vote on him. Talking and asking him questions would have sufficed in my eyes. It makes me assume though that Dalaran does not react well to pressure.

[Spider]

Woof. All honestly, I did not read the setup untill the game started. Woof.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

Woof. All honestly, I did not read the setup untill the game started. Woof.

Perfect example of everyone.

[M-FM Sheep]

I am here now. For some reason I can't help but feel like I got the shit name.

Glad I got in here in time, I doubt there would be modkills on day 1, but you never know.

[M-FM Sheep]

Perfect example of everyone.

What is a setup?

[M-FM Sheep]

Well, I didn't say that whatever he said makes him town, but it doesn't make him scum in my eyes either. He's rather neutral leaning slightly scummy to me. I'll explain.



He is using off-site lingo. We can only draw the conclusion from this that he either slipped and is from another site or he is faking being from another site to be harder to read. It's not a big deal either way.



I agree the question he asked is contradicting the impression you'd get from someone using the word "wolf", namely as you said: This person is new because he cannot draw an obvious answer by himself. Then he does a 180 and starts talking from experience/knowledge, giving off the impression that he has a few games under his belt and therefore formed a solid opinion on how a D1 should look like (an opinion I don't agree with completely but there has always been opposing opinions like this on D1).


This is enough to explain what problem you have with Dalaran because at this point you have put a FoS on him. So why do I not see Dalaran as scummy as you do? It's because the conclusion you can draw from Dalaran's play so far cannot lead to him being scum.

Why would a player fake being new? The obvious answer to me is: He wants to avoid attention by seeming less skilled than he is. Who would want to seem like that? Scum.. and TPRs. Also citizens faking TPRs, if we want to add another WIFOM layer. I wouldn't FoS someone based on that, I'd probably only call him out to that.

Now for another matter: he didn't even succeed at faking being new. As I explained, the opinion he gave looked to be from someone who is experienced. So can we really say that Dalaran tried to fake being new if he didn't even seriously try and failed at this in the very same post he attempted it?

I hope this accurately reflects my view on why Dalaran's behaviour doesn't seem scummy to me up to that point.

Now because you also touched upon it: It is indeed questionable why Dalaran would ask questions now instead of pre-game, especially because the answers to them are not very hard to figure out. They are very simple questions and thinking of them should have happened pre-game. This seems pretty scummy because as you said, it's an attempt to gain easy townpoints (even if not many, I don't award town points like candy, don't know about you guys). Dalaran's defense though is that he wanted to create the norm that asking questions should be normal (if I understood that correctly). While unnecessary because people have always asked questions during games the whole time I've been on this site, I can see where he is coming from and while his defence does not clear him completely in my eyes, I decided to give him the benefit of doubt because it's D1 and the game has just started out.

Conclusion overall: Slightly scummy, nowhere near enough to cast a vote on him. Talking and asking him questions would have sufficed in my eyes. It makes me assume though that Dalaran does not react well to pressure.

I appreciate the day 1 effort. Even on this site's meta.

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

And there's the OMGUS. I was wondering how long it would take.

Captain, explain to me how Darlan is town please. Maybe he's deliberately being fake but there's nothing real about his posting so far.

I plead the fifth

my explanation would cause behaviors to change and make it harder for me to form reads

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I appreciate the day 1 effort. Even on this site's meta.

I try. I am of the belief that D1 is actually useful. On that topic: a debate on debate.org has been brought to my attention where behavioral analysis on D1 was debated and I felt myself agreeing with the pro-advocate. I wonder if I'm allowed to post it.

Am I allowed to post a link leading to debate.org?

If not, try to google it if you are interested in such a thing. Beware though that it's rather lengthy. If my little wall of text made any of you irritated because it was already too long for you, do not bother looking it up.


For the sake of creating activity I'd like to ask people to post what they think of the current situation of Dalaran vs Mal'ganis. And no, it does not have to be as long as my read. I'd just like to see people post as a change of pace. I think fondly of the early FMs where D1 was actually full of activity.

[Spider]

Woof. My think? Woof. You are all being just a bunch of showoffs. Woof.

[King Terenas Menethil]

When interviewed by a journalist would my response be posted verbatim or is the article revised by the journalist for publishing the following day? For example would I be able to include a message for the journalists eyes only?

Journalist just picks a target and they get to make an interview that will be posted at day start. No article revisions.



Am I allowed to post a link leading to debate.org?
Sure


Due to a decent amount of players still not showing up day 1 and like every other day will be 48 hours. Nights also will be 48 hours. Sorry about messing with the times, just want to make sure people get to post.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

As I received permission, here is the debate for anyone who cares to take a look: http://www.debate.org/debates/Mafia-Debate-Behavioral-Analysis-On-D1/1/

[M-FM Silvermoon]

Woof. My think? Woof. You are all being just a bunch of showoffs. Woof.

Woof. You missed a pun. Showoofs. Woof.

[Bug]

What stops us from claiming our true names and lynching within contested claims?

[Bug]

Also fuck I wish I got someone from Hearthstone

[Spider]

What stops us from claiming our true names and lynching within contested claims?

Woof. The Death Note. Woof.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

What stops us from claiming our true names and lynching within contested claims?

The rules?

[Spider]

Woof

[M-FM Lordaeron]

Also fuck I wish I got someone from Hearthstone

But you are the last high elven king of the quel'thalan. He is both a mage and warrior, dat hacker

[Leech]

M-FM Archimonde


Srs vote. He's too impatient.

I agree with this guy.

M-FM Archimonde

[M-FM Dalaran]

Well, I didn't say that whatever he said makes him town, but it doesn't make him scum in my eyes either. He's rather neutral leaning slightly scummy to me. I'll explain.



He is using off-site lingo. We can only draw the conclusion from this that he either slipped and is from another site or he is faking being from another site to be harder to read. It's not a big deal either way.



I agree the question he asked is contradicting the impression you'd get from someone using the word "wolf", namely as you said: This person is new because he cannot draw an obvious answer by himself. Then he does a 180 and starts talking from experience/knowledge, giving off the impression that he has a few games under his belt and therefore formed a solid opinion on how a D1 should look like (an opinion I don't agree with completely but there has always been opposing opinions like this on D1).


This is enough to explain what problem you have with Dalaran because at this point you have put a FoS on him. So why do I not see Dalaran as scummy as you do? It's because the conclusion you can draw from Dalaran's play so far cannot lead to him being scum.

Why would a player fake being new? The obvious answer to me is: He wants to avoid attention by seeming less skilled than he is. Who would want to seem like that? Scum.. and TPRs. Also citizens faking TPRs, if we want to add another WIFOM layer. I wouldn't FoS someone based on that, I'd probably only call him out to that.

Now for another matter: he didn't even succeed at faking being new. As I explained, the opinion he gave looked to be from someone who is experienced. So can we really say that Dalaran tried to fake being new if he didn't even seriously try and failed at this in the very same post he attempted it?

I hope this accurately reflects my view on why Dalaran's behaviour doesn't seem scummy to me up to that point.

Now because you also touched upon it: It is indeed questionable why Dalaran would ask questions now instead of pre-game, especially because the answers to them are not very hard to figure out. They are very simple questions and thinking of them should have happened pre-game. This seems pretty scummy because as you said, it's an attempt to gain easy townpoints (even if not many, I don't award town points like candy, don't know about you guys). Dalaran's defense though is that he wanted to create the norm that asking questions should be normal (if I understood that correctly). While unnecessary because people have always asked questions during games the whole time I've been on this site, I can see where he is coming from and while his defence does not clear him completely in my eyes, I decided to give him the benefit of doubt because it's D1 and the game has just started out.

Conclusion overall: Slightly scummy, nowhere near enough to cast a vote on him. Talking and asking him questions would have sufficed in my eyes. It makes me assume though that Dalaran does not react well to pressure.


So with everything I have posted your read comes down to: Everything I have done is neutral but because I asked host questions I am slightly scummy? I do like the post though. Its nice to see another player came to actually play instead of trying to float by into the late game.

[M-FM Hearthglen]

I agree with this guy.

M-FM Archimonde

Da fuque?


Oh, and the Dalaran/Mal'ganis thing it T/v./T

[M-FM Plaguelands]

So with everything I have posted your read comes down to: Everything I have done is neutral but because I asked host questions I am slightly scummy? I do like the post though. Its nice to see another player came to actually play instead of trying to float by into the late game.
You could summarize my post like that if you only look at what people do and completely dismiss how they're doing something. Which is kinda stupid. Take scum for example: They will attempt to scumhunt to seem like they're town aligned. It's important for us to figure out how they're doing it to catch them. To use your style of defense they'd say "So everything your read on me boils down to is that I'm scum because I'm trying to scum hunt?"

[M-FM Frostmourne]

YES, YESSSS.

- ''FROSTMOURNE HUNGERS''

[M-FM Dalaran]

You could summarize my post like that if you only look at what people do and completely dismiss how they're doing something. Which is kinda stupid. Take scum for example: They will attempt to scumhunt to seem like they're town aligned. It's important for us to figure out how they're doing it to catch them. To use your style of defense they'd say "So everything your read on me boils down to is that I'm scum because I'm trying to scum hunt?"

I agree that how a player goes about something can show motive. But you did not say as much in your read earlier.

Would you say that Mal'ganis intentionally misrepresent my comments, that is it just a communication issue, or that it is his issue with tunnel vision?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I agree that how a player goes about something can show motive. But you did not say as much in your read earlier.

Would you say that Mal'ganis intentionally misrepresent my comments, that is it just a communication issue, or that it is his issue with tunnel vision?

Sigh. At this point I don't even know if you're intentionally misrepresenting what someone said or if you just don't notice it yourself. How could you not see that the entire paragraph about you asking the questions was about how you asked them. If it was simply that you were asking questions at all I could dismiss that, but there is more to Mafia than just actions, there's intent and motive.

Now to explain what I mean that you're misrepresenting what people say: For one, Mal'ganis felt that you were twisting his words. Now I hadn't looked at that too closely (because you don't notice straight away when it doesn't happen to you), but you were able to do just that twice in a row with my posts. It's like your whole play so far consists of discrediting people and that's not what a town player should do.

Now for your question, earlier I said that I think this could be resolved by asking concise questions to the other, but I'm fairly confident that when I go through the conversation again I will find the same phenomenom that I've experienced already.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Let's take a look at this early interaction. For context, Mal'ganis has already voted you (a vote that I think came too early based on too little) and given the reason that you are fake. After you asked him for clarification, he explained himself.


We are not all friends. Not even close. There's at least six enemies to me in the game. So don't even try it.

If you have tone to focus on, then today's posts are not "devoid of content" your words.

Let's try assuming you are new.

You are new. You come onto a site, called sc2mafia, and assume wolves rather than mafia are in the setup. Nothing even remotely suggest wolves. This limits the possibility that you're new to very remote at best as someone new would assume mafia. The fact you attempted to reinforce this with a question that even a moderate player of social deduction could figure out. 51% of the town must logically mean 51% of the group. It's not like we automatically eliminate scum votes from the lynch. That would make the game boring and pointless. Such a question is fake.

So if you want me to move, I'll need to see something genuine from you.
I believe that the conclusion you can come to so far, depending on what perspective you have, can very well be the same that Mal'ganis came to in the highlighted part. As I explained in my read, this wouldn't be enough for myself however to push a vote onto you.

Genuine you say?

Well for starters I really do not care if you move or not. I am reading your FoS as: This player is pretending to be from another site so he is scum. Well that tickles me pink and I doubt anyone would read as much and agree to jump in your train bid.

I do not think you actually believe I am trying to make myself look like I am from another site. Obviously the question was silly. All I had to do to get that answer was look at the votes to lynch. I find players are more willing to ask questions when its the 'norm' and not an outstanding action. I do not think I have ever played an open game where someone asked some question and I had to stop and say "Man, I didn't even think of that". It helps to have multiple people's thoughts to dig through and those simple discussions often lead to some interactions (Just look at ours)

I like to give people the benefit of a doubt so I am trying to avoid focusing on the possibility you are just trying to leech some town cred by misrepresenting me. That said I see your posts as more of a reaction fish than anything else. It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though.
In the part I highlighted, you misrepresent what he said. It's not that you're pretending to be from another site. It's that you've made it clear you're from another site and yet asked such a silly question for reasons we can only assume but the ones I can think of do not help your case. Now, you said you wanted to create the norm where asking questions is normal and even somewhat expected. Do you honestly believe that this is how you could make this happen? The question at best helped to clear a confusion. The result is that you wouldn't come close to what you expect, it'd make people ask questions if they're confused.

Your later journalist question was way better suited for this purpose.


[...]

You directly contradict yourself here in the same comment. This suggests you are just trying to come up with reasons to say I am evil and that you do not even believe in what you are writing. Am I pretending to be new or am I pretending to be experienced? Kindly make up your mind.

[...]
In this highlighted part, you misrepresent what he said again. He said that you want to seem knowledgable, not experienced. Yet you said he does. Is being knowledgable the same as being experienced? Not necessarily, depending where you're coming from. You can be knowledgable while being new, not because you play a lot of Mafia but because you have gained this knowledge through one way or another. If he really meant knowledgable as in experienced is something only he can now. If he meant experienced then I can only point to my read and say that yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone pretending to be new to then contradict this image by wanting to show that he's an experienced player.

The rest of the defense in the post I quoted last is okay but still amouns to you trying to discredit him as a player rather than discrediting his arguments. One might think they're the same thing but I believe there's a difference.

Now for you saying he is misrepresenting what you said, please give me some quotes. I can only see that you're very obviously misrepresenting what others are saying but I'm having a harder time finding where Mal'ganis does the same to you.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

[...]
In this highlighted part, you misrepresent what he said again. He said that you want to seem knowledgable. Yet you said he's saying that you're experienced. Is being knowledgable the same as being experienced? Not necessarily, depending where you're coming from. You can be knowledgable while being new, not because you play a lot of Mafia but because you have gained this knowledge through one way or another. If he really meant knowledgable as in experienced is something only he can know. If he meant experienced then I can only point to my read and say that yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone pretending to be new to then contradict this image by wanting to show that he's an experienced player.

The rest of the defense in the post I quoted last is okay but still amounts to you trying to discredit him as a player rather than discrediting his arguments. One might think they're the same thing but I believe there's a difference.

Now for you saying he is misrepresenting what you said, please give me some quotes. I can only see that you're very obviously misrepresenting what others are saying but I'm having a harder time finding where Mal'ganis does the same to you.

Fixed the highlighted part to clear up misunderstandings.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Sigh. At this point I don't even know if you're intentionally misrepresenting what someone said or if you just don't notice it yourself. How could you not see that the entire paragraph about you asking the questions was about how you asked them. If it was simply that you were asking questions at all I could dismiss that, but there is more to Mafia than just actions, there's intent and motive.

I saw the paragraph. It contains you talking about what my motives could be. It does not talk about 'how' I went about this. It skips the how and cuts to the read in most respects. I do not feel that in any way I misrepresented what you said there. My response was to suggest that the read makes more sense with that additional information.


In the part I highlighted, you misrepresent what he said. It's not that you're pretending to be from another site. It's that you've made it clear you're from another site and yet asked such a silly question for reasons we can only assume but the ones I can think of do not help your case. Now, you said you wanted to create the norm where asking questions is normal and even somewhat expected. Do you honestly believe that this is how you could make this happen? The question at best helped to clear a confusion. The result is that you wouldn't come close to what you expect, it'd make people ask questions if they're confused.

This is moderately obnoxious and would not be an issue at all if people were not com hunting. I am not from another site. Let that be the end of that. I guess there is a bold line between trolling and pointing things out that can not be blurred.

I wanted conversation and I have it. I am rather happy with all the discussion that has come from an odd host question. We could after all still be laughing about the origin of our names right now.


In this highlighted part, you misrepresent what he said again. He said that you want to seem knowledgable, not experienced. Yet you said he does. Is being knowledgable the same as being experienced? Not necessarily, depending where you're coming from. You can be knowledgable while being new, not because you play a lot of Mafia but because you have gained this knowledge through one way or another. If he really meant knowledgable as in experienced is something only he can now. If he meant experienced then I can only point to my read and say that yes, it doesn't make a lot of sense for someone pretending to be new to then contradict this image by wanting to show that he's an experienced player.

Because I substituted the word experienced for knowledgeable I am twisting his words? Honestly. Read his post. Its the same message either way. If you are going to be that technical its going to be a very long game and you will find such issues in every interaction. I do not feel that I twisted his message in the slightest and I am surprised you do not see this as him twisting my words. He said I am trying to appear that I am new and he also said I am trying to appear I am knowledgeable. You would have to amend the way you view the intention of my post to something really strange in order to make any sense of that. I would sooner call it a contradiction because that makes sense to me. Its a logical conclusion that fits. And if you read through the posts and came to this conclusion I will just take your answer as you do not see him manipulating my words at all.

[M-FM Dalaran]

The rest of the defense in the post I quoted last is okay but still amouns to you trying to discredit him as a player rather than discrediting his arguments. One might think they're the same thing but I believe there's a difference.

I agree that there is a very big difference and I do not believe I cut to character assassination at any point. The closest thing I have said is "It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though." I pointed out that his original FoS was weak which is something you agree with. And I pointed out that he is manipulating my words which you disagree with. Neither of these things discredits him as a player any more than you are discrediting me as a player here. Its an attack on the argument presented and not on the player making it.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

You've also said I have dodged questions multiple times, and implied that was scum motivated. I asked you what questions I missed, and you have yet to respond. Also, such behavior is very unlikely to be scum motivated. Scum have no incentive to miss questions at all because it removes their opportunity to persuade others that they are town.

Substituting my words for a word that is easier to discredit is scummy. Appearing knowledgable and experienced are two totally separate things. Appearing knowledgable engenders a feeling of trust to get people to follow you because this guy knows what he's doing. It's a pretty common scum tactic.

Appearing experienced on the other hand obviously is not alignment indicative. That also makes someone a threat to every opposing faction in the game. It is something that rarely helps out anyon in an anonymous com game with no PR information out.

I am also interested in hearing your response to #92 for the section where I have supposedly misrepresented you.

Finally, when I also want D1 to be useful, the slightest thing scummy can be used for a serious vote. A wagon should develop on that player. It is frustrating that players still want to troll around when Day 1 has the closest thing to a natural state and scum cannot fashion a narrative to the game

[M-FM Dalaran]

I will respond in a little while. I found that they leaked 4 episodes of the new Game of Thrones : ). 2 left

I did not respond yesterday because I felt like you were really getting frustrated. When I was pushing I did not really notice there could be somewhat of a language barrier and I felt somewhat guilty for it.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

You two have completely taken the spotlight

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I saw the paragraph. It contains you talking about what my motives could be. It does not talk about 'how' I went about this. It skips the how and cuts to the read in most respects. I do not feel that in any way I misrepresented what you said there. My response was to suggest that the read makes more sense with that additional information.

With "how" I mean the way someone is doing something. For me, that would be how you are asking the question (as opposed to only the what: you are asking the question). This includes for me: What your question is, what your motive could be for asking this specific question. I am of the belief that I already talked about these things in my read. As such I disagree that I did not mention the "how" in my read.



This is moderately obnoxious and would not be an issue at all if people were not com hunting. I am not from another site. Let that be the end of that. I guess there is a bold line between trolling and pointing things out that can not be blurred.
You can even find tells in trolling believe it or not and I am of the belief that anything said in a FM is said intentionally. This obviously then leads to the question of the use of the word "wolf" so it's natural that this would strike people as odd, however annoying you find that. It's not about COM hunting, it's about finding out the motive for using an uncommon word.



Because I substituted the word experienced for knowledgeable I am twisting his words? Honestly. Read his post. Its the same message either way. If you are going to be that technical its going to be a very long game and you will find such issues in every interaction. I do not feel that I twisted his message in the slightest and I am surprised you do not see this as him twisting my words. He said I am trying to appear that I am new and he also said I am trying to appear I am knowledgeable. You would have to amend the way you view the intention of my post to something really strange in order to make any sense of that. I would sooner call it a contradiction because that makes sense to me. Its a logical conclusion that fits. And if you read through the posts and came to this conclusion I will just take your answer as you do not see him manipulating my words at all.

In the end however the fact remains that Mal'ganis feels like you misrepresented what he was saying. You could've asked him how you had done so, I'm sure the dialogue between you two could've been more constructive that way. What I saw was that you tried getting answers from him to some vague question and it was not clear to me if it was hidden inbetween one of the posts or if you just wanted answers to some specific accusations and I for one had no clue what question you were referring to when you asked him repeatedly and even told him you wouldn't let the matter drop. But maybe I'm the odd one here in that regard, this specific aspect is not a big deal to me either way though, keep in mind that if you want clear answers you need to ask clear questions.


I agree that there is a very big difference and I do not believe I cut to character assassination at any point. The closest thing I have said is "It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though." I pointed out that his original FoS was weak which is something you agree with. And I pointed out that he is manipulating my words which you disagree with. Neither of these things discredits him as a player any more than you are discrediting me as a player here. Its an attack on the argument presented and not on the player making it.

It is the tone however that makes me think that it is more of discrediting the player with some arguments though, especially one of your early arguments that his accusation boils down to you pretending to be a new player is why you're scum (and I already argued that I think this is not really accurate from my POV). It aims to make the player in question seem "dumb" for his actions if you didn't realize. There were some who agreed with you, people who haven't done jack shit this game I might add and these will see Mal'ganis automatically as the weak side throughout the dialogue without even giving a thought of their own. If I had name what you did with one word, I'd say "manipulation".

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Yes Lord but it was not my intention. I expected my vote to break us out of RVS and have everyone start engaging in the thread rather than spamming. Instead, when I tried to pull others into to have a more dynamic discussion I got nothing.

I am pretty sure Plague is town from his responses. Given his dialogue contributions, I don't expect to be voting him unless there is a cult or cop guilty. His actions are trying to stop what he sees as a TvT fight or at least has a decent possibility. Because I am unlikely to get a lynch there because LOL day 1, I am giving Plaguelands wideroom to see what he uncovers. I think he's wrong but it is important not to get so caught up in our own opinions being right.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

You've also said I have dodged questions multiple times, and implied that was scum motivated. I asked you what questions I missed, and you have yet to respond. Also, such behavior is very unlikely to be scum motivated. Scum have no incentive to miss questions at all because it removes their opportunity to persuade others that they are town.

Substituting my words for a word that is easier to discredit is scummy. Appearing knowledgable and experienced are two totally separate things. Appearing knowledgable engenders a feeling of trust to get people to follow you because this guy knows what he's doing. It's a pretty common scum tactic.

Appearing experienced on the other hand obviously is not alignment indicative. That also makes someone a threat to every opposing faction in the game. It is something that rarely helps out anyon in an anonymous com game with no PR information out.

I am also interested in hearing your response to #92 for the section where I have supposedly misrepresented you.

Finally, when I also want D1 to be useful, the slightest thing scummy can be used for a serious vote. A wagon should develop on that player. It is frustrating that players still want to troll around when Day 1 has the closest thing to a natural state and scum cannot fashion a narrative to the game

I agree that D1 accusations can be based on stuff that is a bit weaker than usual, but you should still ask yourself if what the accused said is enough to warrant a lynch. I believe we don't have to lynch on D1 but I also do not think that not lynching on D1 is an entirely good thing. It really depends on the flow of the game and the way this game looks, pretty much every scum is still hiding in the shadows. I'd hate for this to be a game where all scums are low-caliber or low-activity players and just get dragged along to the late game.

I guess what I want to say is that accusing and pressuring on D1 is useful so you can base future analyses with D1 in mind too, but you shouldn't focus on one specific player (especially this game) because the unnoticed scums will just stand by and escape your notice.

And yes, I'd also still like to know about the misrepresenting of Dalaran, hope he will clear that up.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

EBWOP: I got mostly nothing.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

You two have completely taken the spotlight

You can still try to give your own opinions on the matter. Mafia does not consist of a conflict between a couple of people happening and eveyone else standing by, you know.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Plaguelands, I agree with all you just said, but I feel the unvote tags are here for a reason. A vote is not a dayvig. Finding something scummy, getting a wagon going and escaping RVS rather than waiting for something lynchable is important. (Response to 101)

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I am pretty sure Plague is town from his responses. Given his dialogue contributions, I don't expect to be voting him unless there is a cult or cop guilty. His actions are trying to stop what he sees as a TvT fight or at least has a decent possibility. Because I am unlikely to get a lynch there because LOL day 1, I am giving Plaguelands wideroom to see what he uncovers. I think he's wrong but it is important not to get so caught up in our own opinions being right.

Honestly, I'm not trying to paint Dalaran as scum on D1. But I want to see what's up with the inconsistencies I'm seeing. I'm still happy to keep Dalaran for the moments because he is active and he can hold his ground and I like to give people a bit of leeway on D1, but it'd be nice if we can clear some things up before the day ends. Because as of right now, he just doesn't seem especially towny to me. Maybe he can redeem himself.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Plaguelands, I agree with all you just said, but I feel the unvote tags are here for a reason. A vote is not a dayvig. Finding something scummy, getting a wagon going and escaping RVS rather than waiting for something lynchable is important. (Response to 101)

Yes, it's good to cast your vote, not disagreeing. It just felt that you were pretty convinced that Dalaran was scum the way you worded your early posts, but I guess I'm mistaken.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Honestly, I'm not trying to paint Dalaran as scum on D1. But I want to see what's up with the inconsistencies I'm seeing. I'm still happy to keep Dalaran for the moments because he is active and he can hold his ground and I like to give people a bit of leeway on D1, but it'd be nice if we can clear some things up before the day ends. Because as of right now, he just doesn't seem especially towny to me. Maybe he can redeem himself.

Fair enough. Confirmation bias can be deadly.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Yes, it's good to cast your vote, not disagreeing. It just felt that you were pretty convinced that Dalaran was scum the way you worded your early posts, but I guess I'm mistaken.

I was and still am but it is important to take a step back and chill.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Triple post: I'm going to be away for an hour. In the meantime I'd enjoy it if there are some people who would like to ask me specifically anything to do so and if you don't want to ask me anything then give your thoughts on the current situation (or even on some other people whose posts were few but something struck you as odd so far).

[M-FM Plaguelands]

To actually get forward in this game we should start asking direct questions to a few players at a time. That'd probably be a good idea starting Day 2 because I believe all the low-activity people won't answer them this close to the night deadline.

[M-FM Lordaeron]

Like half the players are inactive.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Silvermoon, why did you orginally vote Plaguelands?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Silvermoon, why did you orginally vote Plaguelands?

Good question, although I assume that the answer can be derived from the post following his vote.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

The post doesn't explain why a theory disagreement is alignment indicative.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Here is kind of a play by play. It also outlines some of the questions I asked.


That point half way through where you crossed over from talking to me to advising the town (In white) left too much room for me to make assumptions on what you meant. Could you clarify what you trying to say?
This would be the first question I asked in which I did not receive a response. It was in reference to this line:

The speech also suggests that he's trying to put forth that he's knowledgeable as the offsiter does.
This is also the exact line we have been chewing on about manipulation earlier. I was confused about it then and asked for clarification. Earlier in the post he said I was pretending to be new and here it appears to me he is saying I am appearing to be 'experienced'
-------------

We are not all friends. Not even close. There's at least six enemies to me in the game. So don't even try it.
...
You are new. You come onto a site, called sc2mafia, and assume wolves rather than mafia are in the setup. Nothing even remotely suggest wolves. This limits the possibility that you're new to very remote at best as someone new would assume mafia. The fact you attempted to reinforce this with a question that even a moderate player of social deduction could figure out. 51% of the town must logically mean 51% of the group. It's not like we automatically eliminate scum votes from the lynch. That would make the game boring and pointless. Such a question is fake.
And my response

I like to give people the benefit of a doubt so I am trying to avoid focusing on the possibility you are just trying to leech some town cred by misrepresenting me. That said I see your posts as more of a reaction fish than anything else. It is poor form to make demands after dodging questions though.
This is probably the point I began to get a little more aggressive. I did not care for the connection between the two posts or the story that came with it. The 'Im a townie' line looked forced and the post itself did not look genuine to me.

All of post 47 is a strong indicator of where I felt manipulated and direct questions I asked and did not get a response to.

You directly contradict yourself here in the same comment. This suggests you are just trying to come up with reasons to say I am evil and that you do not even believe in what you are writing. Am I pretending to be new or am I pretending to be experienced?

You seem to be trying hard to grasp at straws. Why are you so desperate to make me look scummy? I would be very interested in hearing you explain yourself.
Theres 2 questions that were in post 47. One is pretty direct and the other is more asking for reasoning/open.

His next post is half an hour later and asking Captain Luc what he thinks of me. I read this as totally dodging the question and avoiding clarifying what he said.

Well then. I was not going to chase it here but I read you as experienced as in you have played at least a few games, too much to be this dodgy unintentionally.
Here I call him dodgy and vote him for avoiding my questions.


And there's the OMGUS. I was wondering how long it would take.
Captain, explain to me how Darlan is town please. Maybe he's deliberately being fake but there's nothing real about his posting so far.

Why explain your scummy actions or even explain how 'faking com leads' relates to alignment when you can just dodge questions. You do realize I am just going to keep poking you until you hit the rest of the towns radar or you take a moment and make some sense.
These next two posts is him deflecting attention to Captain and me not letting go. I through in the faking com leads bit to try to get him to start talking. I find that asking an easy question can get people to start answering a more difficult one.


Faking com makes you harder to read. Townies want to be easy to read. I kinda figured this was common sense. There's zero reason to make yourself harder to read.

You can keep poking me but anyone who actually knows me (rather than attempt to impersonate me) knows that I'm aggressive but trying to be more cooperative. So yes, I do want people to explain how you actually are town and how breaking out of RVS is scummy which you certainly are implying is scummy.
Here he dose not answer any questions but suggests his intention was to get chat on track. This is something I do like. But I nowhere said anything about breaking out of RvS being a scummy thing. The discussion only had one soft reference by him hinting that this could be his intention. This would be an example of something I felt he had twisted my words with.


To be direct- I never tried to pretend to be you. I have no idea who you are and I have no idea where this idea came from. ...

I think you are scummy because you misrepresent what I am saying. You dodge questions and your FoS doesn't look like you put very much thought into it. You seemingly did not even bother to read my answers to your questions and you contradict yourself in your statements.

I try to be open minded. I am not saying "I am certain you are scum". I am just saying some of your behavior sets off alarms for me and the lack of explanation from you as to your thought process behind your comments makes me extremely uncomfortable.
Here I clarify my issues again. The first line is in reference to him saying I impersonated him. This is the first real hint I took that we may have somewhat of a communication issue. I ease up at the end a bit for that reason.

Dalaran, I've asked you what you dodged. You haven't answered me. I don't know what it is I'm not explaining.

You haven't given an explanation for your pointless questions (the journalist is another).

It's incredibly frustrating that I'm trying to have a dialogue and all I'm getting is unexplained conclusions. If you are town, this is not helping and we are having an epic failure of communication.

He never asked me what questions he dodged. The post also reeks of frustration.

I agree that we have some communication issues. The rest of the information is in the previous posts.
I back off even more here. I was getting a little frustrated myself and had somewhat decided it was a communication issue. That I was not getting anywhere and just frustrating the player so I went to bed.

After this the conversation mainly crosses over to myself and Plague. After reading through the interaction again and doing somewhat of a play-by-play I still feel quite a bit of what I asked is pretty clear. It bothers me that Plague painted my responses as so beguiling but hopefully this gets us all on the same page.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Response to post 99


This obviously then leads to the question of the use of the word "wolf" so it's natural that this would strike people as odd
I did intentionally use the word. I knew it was out of place and I thought it may draw attention although not anywhere near this extent. I did not think much before using it. The idea tickled me so I did it. There is no more logic to be found there then when someone said a player touches people and he said he was government. I said "Do you mostly touch their pockets"


In the end however the fact remains that Mal'ganis feels like you misrepresented what he was saying. You could've asked him how you had done so, I'm sure the dialogue between you two could've been more constructive that way. What I saw was that you tried getting answers from him to some vague question and it was not clear to me if it was hidden inbetween one of the posts or if you just wanted answers to some specific accusations and I for one had no clue what question you were referring to when you asked him repeatedly and even told him you wouldn't let the matter drop. But maybe I'm the odd one here in that regard, this specific aspect is not a big deal to me either way though, keep in mind that if you want clear answers you need to ask clear questions.
I was working up pressure, putting him off balance and asked maybe one open ended question. This works well with some players. They start talking to get you off their case and look to explain things. You can see what it is they choose to explain as opposed to what they neglect to explain which is nice. Also you get a nice emotional base line for their play style which you can use later.


It is the tone however that makes me think that it is more of discrediting the player with some arguments though, especially one of your early arguments that his accusation boils down to you pretending to be a new player is why you're scum (and I already argued that I think this is not really accurate from my POV). It aims to make the player in question seem "dumb" for his actions if you didn't realize. There were some who agreed with you, people who haven't done jack shit this game I might add and these will see Mal'ganis automatically as the weak side throughout the dialogue without even giving a thought of their own. If I had name what you did with one word, I'd say "manipulation".
You are right. The way it was worded that was a low blow and I should not have taken it like that. I do not think it would have changed much if I had worded it in a more friendly way. He jumped straight to 'He did this, This looks scummy to me' and I challenged the read. His defense that he wanted to get the conversation on track makes sense.

I agree that you can find tells in trolling. And I disagree that you effectively addressed the 'how' in your reasoning. If you had I would not have asked about it. But there is not much point and going back and forth on that.

[Leech]

To actually get forward in this game we should start asking direct questions to a few players at a time. That'd probably be a good idea starting Day 2 because I believe all the low-activity people won't answer them this close to the night deadline.

M-FM Plaguelands

Srs, vote this time.

[M-FM Dalaran]

M-FM Plaguelands

Srs, vote this time.

What are your thoughts on Plague?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

M-FM Plaguelands

Srs, vote this time.
It is your chance to disprove my claim.

What do you think of the situation Dalaran vs Mal'ganis after everything that's been said? Give me an explanation that shows you've been paying attention.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

There's a lot you said Dalaran so I'll read carefully again but I can say that your posts do clear some things up. Brb addressing the post

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Here is kind of a play by play. It also outlines some of the questions I asked.


This would be the first question I asked in which I did not receive a response. It was in reference to this line:

This is also the exact line we have been chewing on about manipulation earlier. I was confused about it then and asked for clarification. Earlier in the post he said I was pretending to be new and here it appears to me he is saying I am appearing to be 'experienced'
-------------

And my response

This is probably the point I began to get a little more aggressive. I did not care for the connection between the two posts or the story that came with it. The 'Im a townie' line looked forced and the post itself did not look genuine to me.

All of post 47 is a strong indicator of where I felt manipulated and direct questions I asked and did not get a response to.


Theres 2 questions that were in post 47. One is pretty direct and the other is more asking for reasoning/open.

His next post is half an hour later and asking Captain Luc what he thinks of me. I read this as totally dodging the question and avoiding clarifying what he said.

Here I call him dodgy and vote him for avoiding my questions.



These next two posts is him deflecting attention to Captain and me not letting go. I through in the faking com leads bit to try to get him to start talking. I find that asking an easy question can get people to start answering a more difficult one.


Here he dose not answer any questions but suggests his intention was to get chat on track. This is something I do like. But I nowhere said anything about breaking out of RvS being a scummy thing. The discussion only had one soft reference by him hinting that this could be his intention. This would be an example of something I felt he had twisted my words with.


Here I clarify my issues again. The first line is in reference to him saying I impersonated him. This is the first real hint I took that we may have somewhat of a communication issue. I ease up at the end a bit for that reason.


He never asked me what questions he dodged. The post also reeks of frustration.

I back off even more here. I was getting a little frustrated myself and had somewhat decided it was a communication issue. That I was not getting anywhere and just frustrating the player so I went to bed.

After this the conversation mainly crosses over to myself and Plague. After reading through the interaction again and doing somewhat of a play-by-play I still feel quite a bit of what I asked is pretty clear. It bothers me that Plague painted my responses as so beguiling but hopefully this gets us all on the same page.

It's good to know from your perspective where you felt the conversation was getting nowhere. I agree that it looked like he was deflecting attention by asking what Luc thought, but I also saw it as an attempt to involve a third party to get a different perspective and to get more activity going.

I did think that the impersonating bit was a bit weird because I noticed no such thing. Maybe Mal'ganis can explain (I don't think I've read an explanation for that).


Response to post 99


I did intentionally use the word. I knew it was out of place and I thought it may draw attention although not anywhere near this extent. I did not think much before using it. The idea tickled me so I did it. There is no more logic to be found there then when someone said a player touches people and he said he was government. I said "Do you mostly touch their pockets"

Fair enough I guess, I can relate to the feeling.



I was working up pressure, putting him off balance and asked maybe one open ended question. This works well with some players. They start talking to get you off their case and look to explain things. You can see what it is they choose to explain as opposed to what they neglect to explain which is nice. Also you get a nice emotional base line for their play style which you can use later.

This is true, it's just that from my perspective the conversation was getting out of hand at that point and I felt like it wasn't constructive anymore so I was a bit surprised.


You are right. The way it was worded that was a low blow and I should not have taken it like that. I do not think it would have changed much if I had worded it in a more friendly way. He jumped straight to 'He did this, This looks scummy to me' and I challenged the read. His defense that he wanted to get the conversation on track makes sense.

I agree that you can find tells in trolling. And I disagree that you effectively addressed the 'how' in your reasoning. If you had I would not have asked about it. But there is not much point and going back and forth on that.

Alright, fair enough. No complaints from my end.

[M-FM Dalaran]

I am pretty disappointed in the amount of players who have been so unwilling to really participate in D1 chat. Hopefully that will change before the day ends. And with at least 3 vocal players who have a disdain for lurkers a policy lynch is a real possibility.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I am pretty disappointed in the amount of players who have been so unwilling to really participate in D1 chat. Hopefully that will change before the day ends. And with at least 3 vocal players who have a disdain for lurkers a policy lynch is a real possibility.

It's not like we'll have any other option if this activity keeps up. I hope this game won't get broken by modkills.

I'd be sorely disappointed if I had to switch to a different site to get my fill of FMs.

[M-FM Dalaran]

It's not like we'll have any other option if this activity keeps up. I hope this game won't get broken by modkills.

I doubt it will come to that with the solid list of reserves stacked up. For inactivity anyways, we could always get a bus driver that flys off the hinges giving people hugs.
Sometime after the game you gotta tell me how you came across this D1 debate. It looks like the kind of news letter I wouldn't mind subscribing to. Although I think bossy is just about a loon given that the topic dose not exclude looking back to D1 on future days.


On a side note I would be interested in hearing something from Andor other than barking and soft hints. Some of her posts are straight post farming.

[M-FM Invincible]

I should be back to this in about 4-5 hrs. I will then go full steam of post on the game. Work has been hectic for me so I don't have as much time.

So if anyone has anything direct they need me to answer they need to make it clear.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I should be back to this in about 4-5 hrs. I will then go full steam of post on the game. Work has been hectic for me so I don't have as much time.

So if anyone has anything direct they need me to answer they need to make it clear.

What are your thoughts on Archi's vote?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Plaguelands, I can't explain more about the impersonation bit without revealing my com.

I've got housework and company coming over. I'll try to be back by deadline but I don't think it will matter.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Plaguelands, I can't explain more about the impersonation bit without revealing my com.

I've got housework and company coming over. I'll try to be back by deadline but I don't think it will matter.

Oh, if you meant it like that then don't worry about it. Here I was thinking he was impersonating your playstyle or something you said in this game. My bad.

[M-FM Invincible]

Home people!

I've been loosely following on the arguments on hand and I do have some thoughts on it in general. Its all subjective and all a playstyle argument. Like I see both sides and think that both of you are just being stupid truthfully.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

hi i am new, i havent read the thread yet but i will and get back to you guy s:)

ilu

[King Terenas Menethil]

Day 1 is Over
Night Ends (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=tuesday+8%3A00+pm+cst)
Night Actions must be submitted 3 Hours before night ends.

[King Terenas Menethil]

Day 2


M-FM Silvermoon was killed last night. She was Shandris Feathermoon, a Footman.



The Scourge Army
The Lich King (Ner’Zhul)
Anub’arak
Kel’Thuzad

Illidan's Legion
Illidan Stormrage
Prince Kael’Thas
Lady Vashj

Defenders of Lordaeron
Arthas
Antonidas
Lady Jaina Proudmoore
Malfurion Stormrage
Uther the Lightbringer
Muradin Bronzebeard
Shandris Feathermoon(Footman)
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner
Tyrande Whisperwind
Medivh
Falric
Marwyn
Thrall
Little Timmy

Players
2 M-FM Quel’thalas (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15622-M-FM-Quel-thalas)
3 M-FM Lordaeron (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15623-M-FM-Lordaeron)
4 M-FM Hearthglen (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15624-M-FM-Hearthglen)
5 M-FM Stratholme (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15625-M-FM-Stratholme)
6 M-FM Dalaran (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15626-M-FM-Dalaran)
7 M-FM Northrend (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15627-M-FM-Northrend)
8 M-FM Plaguelands (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15628-M-FM-Plaguelands)
9 M-FM Andorhal (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15629-M-FM-Andorhal)
10 M-FM Frostmourne (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15630-M-FM-Frostmourne)
11 M-FM Anasterian Sunstrider (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15631-M-FM-Anasterian-Sunstrider)
12 M-FM Invincible (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15632-M-FM-Invincible)
13 M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15633-M-FM-King-Magni-Bronzebeard)
14 M-FM Kil’jaeden (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15634-M-FM-Kil-jaeden)
15 M-FM Archimonde (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15635-M-FM-Archimonde)
16 M-FM Mal’ganis (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15636-M-FM-Mal-ganis)
17 M-FM Princess Calia Menethil (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15637-M-FM-Princess-Calia-Menethil)
18 M-FM Tichondrius (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15638-M-FM-Tichondrius)
19 M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15639-M-FM-Captain-Luc-Valonforth)
20 M-FM Sheep (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15640-M-FM-Sheep)


Graveyard
1 M-FM Silvermoon (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15621-M-FM-Silvermoon)- Footman

Setup (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/27189-M-Fm-The-Frozen-Throne)
Day End (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=thursday+8%3A00+pm+cst)

10

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Day 2


M-FM Silvermoon was killed last night. She was Shandris Feathermoon a Footman



The Scourge Army
The Lich King (Ner’Zhul)
Anub’arak
Kel’Thuzad

Illidan's Legion
Illidan Stormrage
Prince Kael’Thas
Lady Vashj

Defenders of Lordaeron
Arthas
Antonidas
Lady Jaina Proudmoore
Malfurion Stormrage
Uther the Lightbringer
Muradin Bronzebeard
Shandris Feathermoon(Footman)
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner
Tyrande Whisperwind
Medivh
Falric
Marwyn
Thrall
Little Timmy

Players
2 M-FM Quel’thalas (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15622-M-FM-Quel-thalas)
3 M-FM Lordaeron (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15623-M-FM-Lordaeron)
4 M-FM Hearthglen (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15624-M-FM-Hearthglen)
5 M-FM Stratholme (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15625-M-FM-Stratholme)
6 M-FM Dalaran (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15626-M-FM-Dalaran)
7 M-FM Northrend (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15627-M-FM-Northrend)
8 M-FM Plaguelands (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15628-M-FM-Plaguelands)
9 M-FM Andorhal (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15629-M-FM-Andorhal)
10 M-FM Frostmourne (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15630-M-FM-Frostmourne)
11 M-FM Anasterian Sunstrider (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15631-M-FM-Anasterian-Sunstrider)
12 M-FM Invincible (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15632-M-FM-Invincible)
13 M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15633-M-FM-King-Magni-Bronzebeard)
14 M-FM Kil’jaeden (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15634-M-FM-Kil-jaeden)
15 M-FM Archimonde (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15635-M-FM-Archimonde)
16 M-FM Mal’ganis (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15636-M-FM-Mal-ganis)
17 M-FM Princess Calia Menethil (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15637-M-FM-Princess-Calia-Menethil)
18 M-FM Tichondrius (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15638-M-FM-Tichondrius)
19 M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15639-M-FM-Captain-Luc-Valonforth)
20 M-FM Sheep (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15640-M-FM-Sheep)


Graveyard
1 M-FM Silvermoon (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/member.php/15621-M-FM-Silvermoon)- Footman

Setup (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/27189-M-Fm-The-Frozen-Throne)
Day End (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=thursday+8%3A00+pm+cst)

10



Detective here plaguelands visited Silvermoon and Silvermoon died. Doc on me

Gg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Oh right

-vote mfm plaguelands


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

to vote, use the vote tag name here [ /vote]

[vote]M-FM Plaguelands

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

nothing happened to me last night other than host heckling me about my last will's....appropriateness

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

only 1 kill last night. Doctor or Arthus Conversion?

[M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard]

Hi everyone~
I did not realize this started by the time the day is over ;_; But it's okay! I'm here now! <3

I didn't have anything important that happened to me. I find two mafias set up very interesting. Us town should be active involved with discussion. I think the mafia would want to avoid from killing each other too early, and we should try our best to actually make them mishit, while scumhunting and finding an easy scum lynch every day.

By the way, to vote properly, use the bracket [ vote ] name [ /vote ] without any spaces so they can count properly.

Hmm a detective gave us a lead that M-FM Plaguelands visited the dead player. Plagueland better need to explain himself or he will be a good lynch today!!

M-FM Plaguelands

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

Hi everyone~
I did not realize this started by the time the day is over ;_; But it's okay! I'm here now! <3

I didn't have anything important that happened to me. I find two mafias set up very interesting. Us town should be active involved with discussion. I think the mafia would want to avoid from killing each other too early, and we should try our best to actually make them mishit, while scumhunting and finding an easy scum lynch every day.

By the way, to vote properly, use the bracket [ vote ] name [ /vote ] without any spaces so they can count properly.

Hmm a detective gave us a lead that M-FM Plaguelands visited the dead player. Plagueland better need to explain himself or he will be a good lynch today!!

M-FM Plaguelands

how would you feel if I said you were scum?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

M-FM Plaguelands

Spelling needs to be exact. Rather surprised by this given day 1, but that's the way it goes. I guess.

Princess, why did you follow Plaguelands?

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

M-FM Plaguelands

Spelling needs to be exact. Rather surprised by this given day 1, but that's the way it goes. I guess.

Princess, why did you follow Plaguelands?

Not sure just had an inkling I've never played fm mafia before only on sc2


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[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

m-fm plaguelands

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Glad I found some scum. Don't listen to shit he says, too much chance, 90% he is evil

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

Glad I found some scum. Don't listen to shit he says, too much chance, 90% he is evil

Why 90%? Are you not confident in your night results? Are you...bullshitting us?

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Why 90%? Are you not confident in your night results? Are you...bullshitting us?

Well there is always the chance he visited silvermoon and didn't kill her... but the chances of him visiting the same person as the death would be 10% or less in my estimation

[M-FM Northrend]

Detective here plaguelands visited Silvermoon and Silvermoon died. Doc on me

Gg


I find this troubling for 2 reasons.

1) You open the day with your claim instead of probing and seeing who jumps on the pro-plaguelands train

2) You assume anyone who visits a dead player must be the killer.

In any case, because you DID open up with a claim, we will HAVE to wait for plaguelands to defend himself.

Until then, why did you think it was appropriate to claim your role and insufficient lead after one night?

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

I see. That's a valid concern.

To me, that percentage is 0%. Guilty until proven innocent.

[M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth]

I find this troubling for 2 reasons.

1) You open the day with your claim instead of probing and seeing who jumps on the pro-plaguelands train

2) You assume anyone who visits a dead player must be the killer.

In any case, because you DID open up with a claim, we will HAVE to wait for plaguelands to defend himself.

Until then, why did you think it was appropriate to claim your role and insufficient lead after one night?

What about his lead is insufficient to you?

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Looks like some scum defending scum to me! Doc on me!


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[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Northrend, the guy has claimed new yesterday. Most likely he's playing to sc2 arcade meta where results are released immediately, which makes his claim more believable. You are right that it is suboptimal to do it the way he did.

Sure it is possible that Plague is town, but we got enough to get a claim and investigate.

[M-FM Northrend]

Hi everyone~
I think the mafia would want to avoid from killing each other too early, and we should try our best to actually make them mishit, while scumhunting and finding an easy scum lynch every day.


I don't understand what the point of this post was other than informing the two rival mafia factions (or possibly the other rival faction if you are a part of one) that they should avoid hitting each other. Your view of this setup is not form a town point of view and it's not helpful to town. I also don't like the bandwagon on Plaguelands off of a visiting role based on one players accusation without plaguelands having addressed this yet. By all means, continue the bandwagon.

My sheeple list is growing:
M-FM Princess Calia Menethil
M-FM Mal'ganis
M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard
M-FM Captain Luc Valonforth

[M-FM Northrend]

Northrend, the guy has claimed new yesterday. Most likely he's playing to sc2 arcade meta where results are released immediately, which makes his claim more believable. You are right that it is suboptimal to do it the way he did.

Sure it is possible that Plague is town, but we got enough to get a claim and investigate.

I agree, but based on Day 1, it should be noted that Plaguelands doesn't need to be pressured to talk.

[M-FM Northrend]

What about his lead is insufficient to you?

Silvermoon was very brief on Day 1. He entered, voted Plaguelands, and left without participating in conversation. If I were a roleblocker or an investigative type, I would have targeted Silvermoon as well. The fact that Plaguelands visited Silvermoon is therefore not suspicious to me.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

I agree that Bronzelands post is wierd. Definitely worth looking into.

Yet, that next post looks a hell of a lot like coaching Plague to claim investigatives. Stating there are possibilities is enough.

[M-FM Northrend]

Yet, that next post looks a hell of a lot like coaching Plague to claim investigatives. Stating there are possibilities is enough.

You're right. I am being overly defensive for someone else. I'm going to give it a few hours to let others weigh in first.

Are players allowed to post codes?

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

To me, the Bronzelands post is wierd because it supposes that scum lynches are "easy" and we can fool them easily. That's not the case most likely. It supposes that the scum think like he does, which is suggestive...

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I agree, but based on Day 1, it should be noted that Plaguelands doesn't need to be pressured to talk.

Are you fucking kidding me? This guy is obvious scum. I have a lead and he hasn't even claimed a role and you're already defending him.


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[M-FM Mal'ganis]

If Silvermoon was killed by two killing roles, how would that be reflected?

[Leech]

M-FM Plaguelands

Srs, vote this time.

M-FM Plaguelands

[M-FM Northrend]

M-FM Plaguelands

Your input in this game is highly valued Archimonde.

It seems that your posts have been short but well heard. Yesterday you also voted for Plaguelands but have yet to reply to anyone's questions directing or regarding you.

What is your take on how Town players should act during the day? Scum/ObviousTown/AFK?

[Leech]

What is your take on how Town players should act during the day? Scum/ObviousTown/AFK?

None of the above.

[M-FM Northrend]

If Silvermoon was killed by two killing roles, how would that be reflected?

Not claiming to be a mod, but there are no death descriptions.

There are a few scenarios.

1) Vet alerted night 1.
2) Doc
3) The Scourge targeted Arthas or Sylvanas
4) One faction found the invulnerable from the opposing faction

I think it would be in the interest of the Town that if a Town was targeted, they should not be forthright claiming to have been attacked.

[M-FM Northrend]

None of the above.

It it because you have no interest in how Town should play?

[Leech]

I think it would be in the interest of the Town that if a Town was targeted, they should not be forthright claiming to have been attacked.

Reasoning?

[M-FM Northrend]

Reasoning?

Why are you chasing the straw man?

[King Terenas Menethil]

You're right. I am being overly defensive for someone else. I'm going to give it a few hours to let others weigh in first.

Are players allowed to post codes?

Sure

[King Terenas Menethil]

If Silvermoon was killed by two killing roles, how would that be reflected?

No death descriptions so it will just show up that they died.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

You are forgetting both sides attacking the same guy
Jailor
Roleblocker

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Well jailor's unlikely with this site meta.

[M-FM Northrend]

I'm going to give it a few hours to let others weigh in first.


X XX XXXX XX XXX XXXXX X XX XXXXXX. XXXX XXXXX X XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXX XXXXX XXX XX XX XXXXX. XX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX XXX # XXX XXX #. X'X XXXXXXX XX XXX XXX XXXX XXXXX XX XXX XXXXXXXXX. X'X XXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XX XXX XXX XXXXX XX XXXX XXX.

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

Dude, if you want porn, there's better sites for that. Maybe you can find mobstr porn.

[M-FM Northrend]

Dude, if you want porn, there's better sites for that. Maybe you can find mobstr porn.

I'm more of a foot man myself. :p

[M-FM Northrend]

Archimonde there's plenty to discuss. You can't expect to glide through the game this way.

[M-FM Kil'jaeden]

So we have a player who has claimed detective with Plaguelands visiting the dead person. However, I'm slightly uncomfortable with how the wagon has been progressing, and with the claim itself.

I find it unhelpful to run up a wagon on Plaguelands while he is not here, and would like him to at least post a defence/claim/something else before we all rush to lynch him. Not doing so just deprives us of information on him and his wagon, which is not something we want.

Additionally, I find it odd how readily people have trusted Princess's claim, and how Princess herself went from saying Plaguelands was def. scum before saying there was a 90% chance of him being scum, before immediately saying he was def. scum again.

This could be a case of scum sending who they perceive as a weaker/expendable player to try and get rid of a person they thought would be unlikely to be lynched while costing us a mislynch/avoiding doc protection.

However, if we do proceed to believe Princess, and Plaguelands does flip scum, then I believe Northrend is worth taking a look at, with his defence and coaching of Plaguelands.

Just my two cents.

[M-FM Dalaran]

What about his lead is insufficient to you?

The potential fact that this was a mafia kill and that a witch is in the mafia roles list. Although sitting on this lead could also have ended up badly.


M-FM Plaguelands

What is it going to take to get you to contribute something?
#Dirty Lurker


Until Plague is online M-FM Lordaron
I would not mind seeing some pressure on this guy. His D1 actions seemed to consist of some buddying with players even slightly defending me followed by some excuses for his lack of contribution although he was around and able with plenty to talk about.

I have a few ideas on the plague conversation but would rather let him defend himself before I post them. That said we have plenty we can talk about between the players who are already online and it would be productive for us to avoid 100% focusing on this one night action.

Just because its not specifically statedDoes jailors jailing provide night immunity to his jailed target?

[Spider]

Woof. Await the accused to Defend. Woof.

Woof. In B4 Exe lilz. Woof.

Woof. Why would detective claimer show like that is not town. Woof. Not something a Mafia would doo. Woof. Perhaps he is Detective. Woof. Perhaps he is gambiting. Woof.

Woof. Don't forget it's 2 teams of 3. Woof. So unlikely able to gather large gsoup to vote. Woof. But the accusation was clear and easy for anyone to jump on to. Woof.

Only 1 Death. Woof. woof.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Woof. Why would detective claimer show like that is not town. Woof. Not something a Mafia would doo. Woof. Perhaps he is Detective. Woof. Perhaps he is gambiting. Woof.

Tracker- Track a player at night learning whom they visited, or Watch a player at night observing all those that visited them.

Even if he did nail a scum here it doesn't mean he is not on the opposing mafia faction team. This is something mafia would do in this setup with 2 mafia teams. This is something to consider.

[M-FM Dalaran]

@Andorhal
At some point will you be dropping the dog act? If not at some point today could you give an in depth read on a player?. Im really looking for something that shows your reasoning.

[Spider]

Woof. BotD. I'll see what I can do tonight. Busy busy untill then. Woof.

Woof. Feel like it would be to early for mafia to pull gambit like that. Woof.

Woof. Also no, A Dog I remain. Woof. Helps me concentrate. Woof.

[Spider]

Woof. Also, been said that mafia not want to kill each other yet, so unlikely to be evil. Woof. What ever the case, anyone who has defended the accused should be kept an eye on. Woof.

But whatever the case, two players that can visit have been revealed. And detectives future results are threatened if witch/roleblocker alive. Woof.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Come on guys, lets get this day over with. Lynch the baddie and doc on me. Town wins, gg

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Woof. Also, been said that mafia not want to kill each other yet, so unlikely to be evil. Woof. What ever the case, anyone who has defended the accused should be kept an eye on. Woof.

But whatever the case, two players that can visit have been revealed. And detectives future results are threatened if witch/roleblocker alive. Woof.

Exactly, i dont know why forum mafia is so different, but there are 6 evils! We don't have a lot of time. Anyone stalling for an obvious killer is definitely suspicious.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Woof. Feel like it would be to early for mafia to pull gambit like that. Woof.
I disagree. And if this was mafia its probably a solitary action. Not a coordinated one given they did not have feedback to look at in night chat.


Come on guys, lets get this day over with. Lynch the baddie and doc on me. Town wins, gg
I am not sure what to make of this statement. Lynch control is a thing and we will want to preserve the day chat lynching in the last 30 minutes of the day.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I disagree. And if this was mafia its probably a solitary action. Not a coordinated one given they did not have feedback to look at in night chat.


I am not sure what to make of this statement. Lynch control is a thing and we will want to preserve the day chat lynching in the last 30 minutes of the day.

Gotcha, there is something to be said for making people talk. Just keep an eye on the prize (dead maf at end of day 2), and keep a bigger eye on the dipshits that defended him who will be outed by the invest roles tonight because of their obvious defense of obvious evil.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

also, for RP reasons *twirls around like a princess*

[M-FM Dalaran]

Exactly, i dont know why forum mafia is so different, but there are 6 evils! We don't have a lot of time. Anyone stalling for an obvious killer is definitely suspicious.

The difference is that in the mod everyone has a nice power role and the town can depend on leads from their power roles to give them something to go on and lynch the scum. In FM there are plenty of games where there is only 1 town power role and the rest of the town is citizens. You do not depend on night actions so much as you depend on reading other players. The mafia can win with their night actions and do not need to scum hunt. The town need to scum hunt and pressure players to look for scum slips.
Past that as I have said- even if the feedback you provided is true and we lynch plague with him flipping mafia; that doesn't mean you are confirmed town. Only that you are very likely not part of plagues mafia team.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

The difference is that in the mod everyone has a nice power role and the town can depend on leads from their power roles to give them something to go on and lynch the scum. In FM there are plenty of games where there is only 1 town power role and the rest of the town is citizens. You do not depend on night actions so much as you depend on reading other players. The mafia can win with their night actions and do not need to scum hunt. The town need to scum hunt and pressure players to look for scum slips.
Past that as I have said- even if the feedback you provided is true and we lynch plague with him flipping mafia; that doesn't mean you are confirmed town. Only that you are very likely not part of plagues mafia team.

Sounds more fun! Sucks that I won't be confirmed town though. Am I really the only "power" role?! Are the rest of you all citizens? ROLECALL

[M-FM Plaguelands]

A lot has happened quickly so I'll try to address everything I can because I've got a lot I want to say. Maybe we will start out with some scenarios. What could have happened during the night and what was the result of those actions? I'll compile anything I can think of and find in the setup (and I'll also add other scenarios that do not have anything to do with night actions).

1. A town BD bussed me with the killer. To me a likely scenario, I'd consider myself a target I'd want to protect as a town Bus Driver considering I contributed a lot and tried to scumhunt when possible and also tried to encourage activity. The only problem is that without the Bus Driver revealing we won't know if this happened as bussing does not leave feedback. On the upside a BD reveal would reveal a scum player and avert this possible mislynch. The BD would also very likely not be scum allied with me because that action would be very weird for scum to take. If an allied BD would want to protect me he would swap me with someone towny. If they wanted to kill me they'd want to swap me with someone scummy (the killer that Princess followed? risk of unintentionally framing me).
2. A framer framed me. It's possible that someone framed me because I looked towny and they wanted to cause a mislynch if an investigative role checked me. (Unlikely in my eyes though, I will explain later in this post)
3. Princess was blackmailed. Unlikely because her behaviour does not suggest that at all.
4. Princess was witched. Is that likely? Who knows, maybe the Witch is trying to find scum by using their action and seeing what happens and as Princess had only one post yesterday it's possible she was deemed scummy.
5. A reaction test. The fact that she claimed being new speaks contrary to that but on the other side it might all be fake to set up a strong reaction test. The way she is pushing the lynch it could be either way.
As far as I can see these are all the possible night actions and other scenarios.

1. A gambit. I do not find that super unlikely. Consider this: It's usually not expected that scum would try a gambit this early. This leads to a more believable train and causes a mislynch. Now if the gambiting player presents himself as a towny player and even uses one of the scenarios from the spoiler above to prove why he is still town even though his result was not correct then that scum team would be in a way better position than before. It is however questionable why they would not try to kill me instead if they wanted me dead this much and try such a risky gambit instead which relies on the gambiting player being a player that can seem sincere. I could only see this gambit as a continuation of a failed night kill but even then.. ehh.

Any other scenarios are not possible. Why? I will claim now as this statement will lead to that conclusion soon anyway: I am a footman. As a small proof I'll post my last will.. it'll be slightly redacted though because of sensitive information.



His first 3 posts are a bit of trolling, nothing much. Don't mind, that's fine in the beginning.
#45 he agrees with Dalaran that Mal'ganis FoS as "pretending to be from another site = scum", asks Mal'ganis to make a better case (immediately dismissing Dalaran as scum). At the very least he is interested in involving himself but he gives very little in this post.
#56 he claims "Mal'ganis does not feel like town" it'd be nice if he gave reasoning. kind of scummy in my eyes to exclaim such a thing without explaining
#58 is a troll post. meh, its the first day so I'll let it slide
#69 claims that no one has read the setup. In context he is slightly defending Dalaran and buddying with Andorhal.
#84 troll post again.
#98 "you two have completely taken the spotlight" I assume this is supposed to be a defense as to why he hasn't posted a lot. I say it's bs and he could've added his opinion at any time.
#111 "like half the players are inactive" nice deduction Sherlock. That's no excuse for you to do the same

My conclusion from everything he has done is that he is pretty scummy atm. He was available throughout the 48h and has barely contributed anything. He had several opportunities to do so seeing as he commented even at times where the discussion was at its most active point. He even chose to post troll posts instead of anything of value. Makes me think that he wanted just wanted to seem active without contributing. Might also just be inexperienced.


[REDACTED]

M-FM Silvermoon: Has voted me early in the day because I apparently looked like I didn't want to allow any kind of speculations being made. However she did not entirely explain her reasonings and even though she has posted one more time later in the game it was just a troll post regarding a pun. 1/2 out of 4 posts and nothing of much value. For someone so aggressive early it's surprising that he did not involve himself in any discussions at a later point even though he was seemingly there.

M-FM Andorhal: This player wants to float to the late game. The tone in his posts makes me think that he is an experienced player but he chooses not to contribute a lot on D1 to stay under the radar. Him calling us "showoffs" underlines the impression that he is experienced.. or that he is unskilled, but I find that unlikely.

M-FM Archimonde: Even though he has posted throughout the day (a bit at the beginning and near the end of the day) he did not contribute anything. His vote on me copied the format of Hearthglen's vote on Archimonde and makes me think that all he did that day was troll. He actively chose not to say anything useful on anything despite quoting me twice (and one time even saying TL;DR when it was just 5 lines of text). He made no effort to share any of his opinions. Honestly one of my bigger scum suspects coming out of the day for me.

M-FM Hearthglen: Despite not saying a lot he did give his opinion on a current conflict and that's a lot better than most of the people that day have done. Contrary to that the fact that chose not to say a lot makes it a lot harder to look at his behaviour meaning he is able to hide his thoughts and his strategy going into the game. Someone like Andorhal, who has not contributed a lot, is a lot easier to read because you can analyze his strategy going into the game from the way he behaves.

[REDACTED]

I want everyone to make an effort to ask questions to low-activity players to get them to contribute. Make sure the activity picks up during the game. As of n1 there is not much to say otherwise. I hope the reads are of help. Good luck.
PS: Oh and just because M-FM Lordaron was the first read I made doesn't mean he is the scummiest of them all. Just one of many scummy people.

If that quote is real or not is up to you to decide. Anyway, I'll come to the juicy part. Why did you decide to investigate me, Princess? I mean honestly, saying "uh dunno just a feeling" isn't really a good reasoning. Usually you'd use your action on someone you read as scummy. Why'd you use it on me? Did you read me as scummy? Can you go through my posts and point out what is scummy about them to back up your action? Saying it was based on a gut feeling seems pretty weak to me to be honest.

Now, I did say that scum trying for a gambit is unlikely. This still stands even though Princess has gotten a lot scummier over the course of her posts but that doesn't quite refute the fact that a scum gambit would not be a good idea. I'm not sure if I'd give Princess the benefit of doubt for now because she claims to be new and that's maybe what is making me read her as scummy. If I would give her the benefit of doubt though the only possibility left is that one of the different night actions I mentioned interfered with the investigation and as such threw up me visiting the dead Silvermoon.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

A lot has happened quickly so I'll try to address everything I can because I've got a lot I want to say. Maybe we will start out with some scenarios. What could have happened during the night and what was the result of those actions? I'll compile anything I can think of and find in the setup (and I'll also add other scenarios that do not have anything to do with night actions).

1. A town BD bussed me with the killer. To me a likely scenario, I'd consider myself a target I'd want to protect as a town Bus Driver considering I contributed a lot and tried to scumhunt when possible and also tried to encourage activity. The only problem is that without the Bus Driver revealing we won't know if this happened as bussing does not leave feedback. On the upside a BD reveal would reveal a scum player and avert this possible mislynch. The BD would also very likely not be scum allied with me because that action would be very weird for scum to take. If an allied BD would want to protect me he would swap me with someone towny. If they wanted to kill me they'd want to swap me with someone scummy (the killer that Princess followed? risk of unintentionally framing me).
2. A framer framed me. It's possible that someone framed me because I looked towny and they wanted to cause a mislynch if an investigative role checked me. (Unlikely in my eyes though, I will explain later in this post)
3. Princess was blackmailed. Unlikely because her behaviour does not suggest that at all.
4. Princess was witched. Is that likely? Who knows, maybe the Witch is trying to find scum by using their action and seeing what happens and as Princess had only one post yesterday it's possible she was deemed scummy.
5. A reaction test. The fact that she claimed being new speaks contrary to that but on the other side it might all be fake to set up a strong reaction test. The way she is pushing the lynch it could be either way.
As far as I can see these are all the possible night actions and other scenarios.

1. A gambit. I do not find that super unlikely. Consider this: It's usually not expected that scum would try a gambit this early. This leads to a more believable train and causes a mislynch. Now if the gambiting player presents himself as a towny player and even uses one of the scenarios from the spoiler above to prove why he is still town even though his result was not correct then that scum team would be in a way better position than before. It is however questionable why they would not try to kill me instead if they wanted me dead this much and try such a risky gambit instead which relies on the gambiting player being a player that can seem sincere. I could only see this gambit as a continuation of a failed night kill but even then.. ehh.

Any other scenarios are not possible. Why? I will claim now as this statement will lead to that conclusion soon anyway: I am a footman. As a small proof I'll post my last will.. it'll be slightly redacted though because of sensitive information.

[SPOILER=Incomplete Last Will]

If that quote is real or not is up to you to decide. Anyway, I'll come to the juicy part. Why did you decide to investigate me, Princess? I mean honestly, saying "uh dunno just a feeling" isn't really a good reasoning. Usually you'd use your action on someone you read as scummy. Why'd you use it on me? Did you read me as scummy? Can you go through my posts and point out what is scummy about them to back up your action? Saying it was based on a gut feeling seems pretty weak to me to be honest.

Now, I did say that scum trying for a gambit is unlikely. This still stands even though Princess has gotten a lot scummier over the course of her posts but that doesn't quite refute the fact that a scum gambit would not be a good idea. I'm not sure if I'd give Princess the benefit of doubt for now because she claims to be new and that's maybe what is making me read her as scummy. If I would give her the benefit of doubt though the only possibility left is that one of the different night actions I mentioned interfered with the investigation and as such threw up me visiting the dead Silvermoon.

You were talking a lot. I didn't like your avatar, I didn't even read the whole thread, just skimmed it when deciding who to follow. Dumb luck, really. Enjoy being dead, scum.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

A lot has happened quickly so I'll try to address everything I can because I've got a lot I want to say. Maybe we will start out with some scenarios. What could have happened during the night and what was the result of those actions? I'll compile anything I can think of and find in the setup (and I'll also add other scenarios that do not have anything to do with night actions).

1. A town BD bussed me with the killer. To me a likely scenario, I'd consider myself a target I'd want to protect as a town Bus Driver considering I contributed a lot and tried to scumhunt when possible and also tried to encourage activity. The only problem is that without the Bus Driver revealing we won't know if this happened as bussing does not leave feedback. On the upside a BD reveal would reveal a scum player and avert this possible mislynch. The BD would also very likely not be scum allied with me because that action would be very weird for scum to take. If an allied BD would want to protect me he would swap me with someone towny. If they wanted to kill me they'd want to swap me with someone scummy (the killer that Princess followed? risk of unintentionally framing me).
2. A framer framed me. It's possible that someone framed me because I looked towny and they wanted to cause a mislynch if an investigative role checked me. (Unlikely in my eyes though, I will explain later in this post)
3. Princess was blackmailed. Unlikely because her behaviour does not suggest that at all.
4. Princess was witched. Is that likely? Who knows, maybe the Witch is trying to find scum by using their action and seeing what happens and as Princess had only one post yesterday it's possible she was deemed scummy.
5. A reaction test. The fact that she claimed being new speaks contrary to that but on the other side it might all be fake to set up a strong reaction test. The way she is pushing the lynch it could be either way.
As far as I can see these are all the possible night actions and other scenarios.

1. A gambit. I do not find that super unlikely. Consider this: It's usually not expected that scum would try a gambit this early. This leads to a more believable train and causes a mislynch. Now if the gambiting player presents himself as a towny player and even uses one of the scenarios from the spoiler above to prove why he is still town even though his result was not correct then that scum team would be in a way better position than before. It is however questionable why they would not try to kill me instead if they wanted me dead this much and try such a risky gambit instead which relies on the gambiting player being a player that can seem sincere. I could only see this gambit as a continuation of a failed night kill but even then.. ehh.

Any other scenarios are not possible. Why? I will claim now as this statement will lead to that conclusion soon anyway: I am a footman. As a small proof I'll post my last will.. it'll be slightly redacted though because of sensitive information.

[SPOILER=Incomplete Last Will]

If that quote is real or not is up to you to decide. Anyway, I'll come to the juicy part. Why did you decide to investigate me, Princess? I mean honestly, saying "uh dunno just a feeling" isn't really a good reasoning. Usually you'd use your action on someone you read as scummy. Why'd you use it on me? Did you read me as scummy? Can you go through my posts and point out what is scummy about them to back up your action? Saying it was based on a gut feeling seems pretty weak to me to be honest.

Now, I did say that scum trying for a gambit is unlikely. This still stands even though Princess has gotten a lot scummier over the course of her posts but that doesn't quite refute the fact that a scum gambit would not be a good idea. I'm not sure if I'd give Princess the benefit of doubt for now because she claims to be new and that's maybe what is making me read her as scummy. If I would give her the benefit of doubt though the only possibility left is that one of the different night actions I mentioned interfered with the investigation and as such threw up me visiting the dead Silvermoon.

You never even claimed who you visited?!

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

You never even claimed who you visited?!

Ah, footman is citizen.

gotcha.

Anyway, it sure took him a fucking long time to make this fake last will, eh?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Princess, your whole being seems so fake, everything you say seems like it was specifically said to seem overly new. Even things like looking into the setup. New != stupid. Are you telling me you couldn't even look into the setup to confirm that the role of the footman visits no one? Especially after we had one dead footman already. This impression in turn raises the possibility for me that this could be a gambit.
Now you corrected yourself but that doesn't remove the post before that.

However the outright rudeness throughout this day in turn leaves the impression of a reaction test.

I also crumbed my role before today already but I'd be surprised if many picked up on it.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Princess, your whole being seems so fake, everything you say seems like it was specifically said to seem overly new. Even things like looking into the setup. New != stupid. Are you telling me you couldn't even look into the setup to confirm that the role of the footman visits no one? Especially after we had one dead footman already. This impression in turn raises the possibility for me that this could be a gambit.
Now you corrected yourself but that doesn't remove the post before that.

However the outright rudeness throughout this day in turn leaves the impression of a reaction test.

I also crumbed my role before today already but I'd be surprised if many picked up on it.

I would bother to respond to this, but it's all 100% bullshit because footmen don't visit dead people.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I would bother to respond to this, but it's all 100% bullshit because footmen don't visit dead people.

You are 100% bullshit because detectives don't visit footmen who are able to move. Same shit. Prove that your claim is better than mine. That's what this is about. All you've done so far is claim a role and a night action that supposedly makes me scum. This ain't an arcade mode, little Princess. This is a battle of words and wits. Prove that your word is better than mine.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

You are 100% bullshit because detectives don't visit footmen who are able to move. Same shit. Prove that your claim is better than mine. That's what this is about. All you've done so far is claim a role and a night action that supposedly makes me scum. This ain't an arcade mode, little Princess. This is a battle of words and wits. Prove that your word is better than mine.

Well, genius, I'm sure you've played mafia before right?

I can't prove anything until you die and your role is revealed to be the KILLER.

Of course, the other option is to lynch me.

But that would be fucking stupid.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Well, genius, I'm sure you've played mafia before right?

I can't prove anything until you die and your role is revealed to be the KILLER.

Of course, the other option is to lynch me.

But that would be fucking stupid.

There is literally nothing else I can say. You can type whatever you want all day. You can play psychological games, but a scum can type anything they want. The only thing that matters is what the night actions say, and they said you visited silvermoon. The very fact that you claim a role that can't even visit means you are 100% evil.

Do people know if they are witched?

[M-FM Stratholme]

Hi there, I got attacked and healed this night whysoever someone had a huge interest in me it seems. Anyway I dont like princess early claim, continued by post farming with 0 content responses and not even seeing the slight possibility of a good amount of scenarios.

Also I´m content to believe plaqulands defence, his day1 posts were pretty pro town to me, him claiming footman is not beneficial to him, since it lowers his defence against a detective claim and the fast votes on him are suspiscious.

Against him stands that Princess could be "new" and northrends chainsaw defence, but that are rather weak points, if you ask me.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Hi there, I got attacked and healed this night whysoever someone had a huge interest in me it seems. Anyway I dont like princess early claim, continued by post farming with 0 content responses and not even seeing the slight possibility of a good amount of scenarios.

Also I´m content to believe plaqulands defence, his day1 posts were pretty pro town to me, him claiming footman is not beneficial to him, since it lowers his defence against a detective claim and the fast votes on him are suspiscious.

Against him stands that Princess could be "new" and northrends chainsaw defence, but that are rather weak points, if you ask me.

...

this town has downs. i swear.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Well, genius, I'm sure you've played mafia before right?

I can't prove anything until you die and your role is revealed to be the KILLER.

Of course, the other option is to lynch me.

But that would be fucking stupid.

No darling, you are completely disregarding the possibility that other night actions have interfered which is very possible. Your problem is that you close your eyes to possibilites and tunnel vision onto one view you have perceived to be the most likely in the past and do not sway from that. Have you ever considered the possibility that should you really be town that we both may be town and lynching either of us will result in the death of the other?

Anyway, I'll be working on a read on you now.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I don't understand. He asks for "more proof" There is literally none.

How does anyone think analyzing what someone types, WHICH THEY CHECK AND ANALYZE FOR INCONSISTENCES BEFORE POSTING, is more effective than FOLLOWING A LEAD THAT HAS NO COUNTERCLAIMS.

Come the fuck on, learn to play mafia guys.

FOOTMEN CANT VISIT. PLAGUELANDS VISITED SILVERMOON. SILVERMOON DIED.

It's pretty simple.

[M-FM Stratholme]

Do people know if they are witched?

since it isnt specified in the setup you can assume that the usual setting counts, wich is they dont get notified, if youw ant a host answer ask in green.

[M-FM Dalaran]

A lot has happened quickly so I'll try to address everything I can because I've got a lot I want to say. Maybe we will start out with some scenarios. What could have happened during the night and what was the result of those actions? I'll compile anything I can think of and find in the setup (and I'll also add other scenarios that do not have anything to do with night actions).

1. A town BD bussed me with the killer. To me a likely scenario, I'd consider myself a target I'd want to protect as a town Bus Driver considering I contributed a lot and tried to scumhunt when possible and also tried to encourage activity. The only problem is that without the Bus Driver revealing we won't know if this happened as bussing does not leave feedback. On the upside a BD reveal would reveal a scum player and avert this possible mislynch. The BD would also very likely not be scum allied with me because that action would be very weird for scum to take. If an allied BD would want to protect me he would swap me with someone towny. If they wanted to kill me they'd want to swap me with someone scummy (the killer that Princess followed? risk of unintentionally framing me).
2. A framer framed me. It's possible that someone framed me because I looked towny and they wanted to cause a mislynch if an investigative role checked me. (Unlikely in my eyes though, I will explain later in this post)
3. Princess was blackmailed. Unlikely because her behaviour does not suggest that at all.
4. Princess was witched. Is that likely? Who knows, maybe the Witch is trying to find scum by using their action and seeing what happens and as Princess had only one post yesterday it's possible she was deemed scummy.
5. A reaction test. The fact that she claimed being new speaks contrary to that but on the other side it might all be fake to set up a strong reaction test. The way she is pushing the lynch it could be either way.
As far as I can see these are all the possible night actions and other scenarios.

1. A gambit. I do not find that super unlikely. Consider this: It's usually not expected that scum would try a gambit this early. This leads to a more believable train and causes a mislynch. Now if the gambiting player presents himself as a towny player and even uses one of the scenarios from the spoiler above to prove why he is still town even though his result was not correct then that scum team would be in a way better position than before. It is however questionable why they would not try to kill me instead if they wanted me dead this much and try such a risky gambit instead which relies on the gambiting player being a player that can seem sincere. I could only see this gambit as a continuation of a failed night kill but even then.. ehh.

Any other scenarios are not possible. Why? I will claim now as this statement will lead to that conclusion soon anyway: I am a footman. As a small proof I'll post my last will.. it'll be slightly redacted though because of sensitive information.

[SPOILER=Incomplete Last Will]

If that quote is real or not is up to you to decide. Anyway, I'll come to the juicy part. Why did you decide to investigate me, Princess? I mean honestly, saying "uh dunno just a feeling" isn't really a good reasoning. Usually you'd use your action on someone you read as scummy. Why'd you use it on me? Did you read me as scummy? Can you go through my posts and point out what is scummy about them to back up your action? Saying it was based on a gut feeling seems pretty weak to me to be honest.

Now, I did say that scum trying for a gambit is unlikely. This still stands even though Princess has gotten a lot scummier over the course of her posts but that doesn't quite refute the fact that a scum gambit would not be a good idea. I'm not sure if I'd give Princess the benefit of doubt for now because she claims to be new and that's maybe what is making me read her as scummy. If I would give her the benefit of doubt though the only possibility left is that one of the different night actions I mentioned interfered with the investigation and as such threw up me visiting the dead Silvermoon.

Some odd notes that may save people some time:
Framers frame makes the target appear to be mafia as well as appear to have visited the factional kill
Bus driver does not leave feedback
There is a mafia version of the Bus driver in the roles
Witch does not leave feedback

This is unfortunate turn because I did read you as town. If this is a gambit I hope it will not take up too much time. If not we can trust the detective lead and go for the lynch or debate hypothetical situations. I can say that if any of the 3 above mentioned roles had a hand in the situation it would in fact create a potential for Plague to be a footman and Princess to be a detective. Reguardless of Princess alignment I trust that the feedback is either real and should be trusted to be what she received or its all a gambit which will be revealed after some period of time.

Unless some new information comes up or Princess reveals this to be a gambit I would be in favor of lynching Plague. I read the player as town from his day chat but I am a huge fan of following the conclusion that makes the most sense. The two I would consider is that Plague is mafia caught by a detective or that a framer framed plague.

Do mafia hand pick the player that is sent for the night kill or is it random?

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

IS PMING ALLOWED?

[M-FM Dalaran]

since it isnt specified in the setup you can assume that the usual setting counts, wich is they dont get notified, if youw ant a host answer ask in green.

It is specified in the setup:
Witch- Manipulate a target at night and force them to visit a second target.
You may cause self targets.
You may send the manipulated target to yourself.
If your self target causes a killing role to visit itself it's kill will bypass night invulnerability.
Your manipulation gives no feedback.

[M-FM Stratholme]

It is specified in the setup:
Witch- Manipulate a target at night and force them to visit a second target.
You may cause self targets.
You may send the manipulated target to yourself.
If your self target causes a killing role to visit itself it's kill will bypass night invulnerability.
Your manipulation gives no feedback.

It actually is? okay my bad, I could swear the first time I readed the setup it wasnt there.

[M-FM Stratholme]

IS PMING ALLOWED?

I can tell you that Pming isnt allowed and will never be, you could just aswell make a skype group and speak with everyone there, if it would be, since there is no way for others to find out with whom you are Pming.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I can tell you that Pming isnt allowed and will never be, you could just aswell make a skype group and speak with everyone there, if it would be, since there is no way for others to find out with whom you are Pming.

thank you, sorry for being an idiot in general guys. I'll tone it down from here on out. didn't mean to come out too early, I know d2 invest claims are usually looked upon with suspicion, i just noticed jester/exec not possible and figured we need to start out on the right foot.

Anyway, Plague isn't a footman.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

To be clear, can someone explain why the hell I would want to do a "gambit"? There are no neutral roles... I am either town and gamethrowing... or I am evil and dead tonight (to town power role) or dead tomorrow (to lynch) if plaguelands isn't evil.

If literally the only defense anyone can muster against me is I am taking a "gambit" please explain to me why a pro forum mafia player that is evil would pretend to be detective day 2?

[M-FM Dalaran]

thank you, sorry for being an idiot in general guys. I'll tone it down from here on out. didn't mean to come out too early, I know d2 invest claims are usually looked upon with suspicion, i just noticed jester/exec not possible and figured we need to start out on the right foot.

Anyway, Plague isn't a footman.

Take a moment to consider the scenario's which plague mentioned. They are all potential reasons you could have indeed received this feedback and he could be a footman. This is why not everyone will immediately jump on the train and lynch. (That and whatever happens will hopefully happen 36 hours from now with a lot of talking in between)

Also just because it was not mentioned Princess could be controlled by a Ventriloquist. I also believe this is unlikely.

My vote stays on Lordaron although I do support this lynch.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Take a moment to consider the scenario's which plague mentioned. They are all potential reasons you could have indeed received this feedback and he could be a footman. This is why not everyone will immediately jump on the train and lynch. (That and whatever happens will hopefully happen 36 hours from now with a lot of talking in between)

Also just because it was not mentioned Princess could be controlled by a Ventriloquist. I also believe this is unlikely.

My vote stays on Lordaron although I do support this lynch.

stop wasting your vote and vote the lead, we have so many afk players, advance the game. only scum random vote when there is a lead. You look like a scum pretending to be town really really hard

[M-FM Stratholme]

To be clear, can someone explain why the hell I would want to do a "gambit"? There are no neutral roles... I am either town and gamethrowing... or I am evil and dead tonight (to town power role) or dead tomorrow (to lynch) if plaguelands isn't evil.

If literally the only defense anyone can muster against me is I am taking a "gambit" please explain to me why a pro forum mafia player that is evil would pretend to be detective day 2?

Noone says you cant be detective, but that doesnt mean that plaquelands is 100% scum, since we have 6-7 enemies in the town it would be fatal to mislynch and from the looks like the chance is high that plaque was framed/witched/bussed e.t.c. (dalaran quotet eralier that framer sends his target to the factional night kill wich is different from sc2mafia btw)

[M-FM Dalaran]

To be clear, can someone explain why the hell I would want to do a "gambit"? There are no neutral roles... I am either town and gamethrowing... or I am evil and dead tonight (to town power role) or dead tomorrow (to lynch) if plaguelands isn't evil.

If literally the only defense anyone can muster against me is I am taking a "gambit" please explain to me why a pro forum mafia player that is evil would pretend to be detective day 2?

Because it gives the town information. If you were say; a citizen and wanted to see how Plague would react you could say you were a detective and caught him killing last night. The same reason its good to put pressure on players even if you do not want to lynch them at the time.

[Leech]

I have a VERY BAD FEELING about M-FM Stratholme.

That is all.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Noone says you cant be detective, but that doesnt mean that plaquelands is 100% scum, since we have 6-7 enemies in the town it would be fatal to mislynch and from the looks like the chance is high that plaque was framed/witched/bussed e.t.c. (dalaran quotet eralier that framer sends his target to the factional night kill wich is different from sc2mafia btw)

"highly likely"

Is that what you call <10% chance? What are the chances framer/witch/bus hit him the same night I did, the same night he visited silvermoon?

Scum #3 located.

You guys are making this too easy.

[M-FM Dalaran]

Noone says you cant be detective, but that doesnt mean that plaquelands is 100% scum, since we have 6-7 enemies in the town it would be fatal to mislynch and from the looks like the chance is high that plaque was framed/witched/bussed e.t.c. (dalaran quotet eralier that framer sends his target to the factional night kill wich is different from sc2mafia btw)

Why do you think its a high chance he was framed/witched/bussed?

[M-FM Stratholme]

Why do you think its a high chance he was framed/witched/bussed?

Since, I see him as town, he was pro town active yesterday and we have 6-7 random mafia roles that could be Framer/witch/Bus driver, it would be obv to assume that mafia or scourge used at least one role to miscredit him after his strong lead yesterday.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Since, I see him as town, he was pro town active yesterday and we have 6-7 random mafia roles that could be Framer/witch/Bus driver, it would be obv to assume that mafia or scourge used at least one role to miscredit him after his strong lead yesterday.

More like you're dead tomorrow buddy

[M-FM Plaguelands]

My read of Princess (posts as of now: 199):

Post#130 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476475&viewfull=1#post476475)
My first impression is: Who talks like that? Who says that?
I sure as hell didn't claim that I was new in my first FM. What benefit does it have? That people will forgive me bad plays? If this is the impression then the conclusion we can take for this game is that Princess is either just really new and inexperienced and doesn't give any thoughts about her paly.. or this is a setup for a gambit or various other weak plays.
Post#133 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476592&viewfull=1#post476592)
It's the very first post of Day2. Additionally this claim is very fishy. "Doc on me" trying to show confidence but directing town's actions at the same time. Manipulation if you ask me. On the other hand it's reinforcing that this is a new player as claimed before and it works because everyone here has played the Mafia mod before. The "Gg" seems weird though.
Post#134 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476594&viewfull=1#post476594)
More reinforcement that this person wants to be seen as new or genuinely is new.
Post#141 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476605&viewfull=1#post476605)
She claims that she has not given her action any thought and went by gutfeeling. I dare say without coming across as too full of myself that with a bit of thought you would find much better targets than me after D1. And Princess took another opportunity to claim that she is new. 4/4 posts so far.
Post#142 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476606&viewfull=1#post476606)
Voted correctly this time
Post#143 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476607&viewfull=1#post476607)
Is pushing town aggressively to follow her lead without giving it too much thought. Who says that? Nothing is even confirmed yet. Especially telling others to not let me talk. It's a clear sign of manipulation. The funny thing is that you even follow it up by saying that there's a "90% chance" of me being scum after being so completely convinced of me being scum just in that sentence before.
Post#145 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476609&viewfull=1#post476609)
You try to explain yourself and you are willing to think of the possibility that I'm town but it does not explain this absolute conviction you have shown before. There's a disparity between your explanation and your behaviour.
Post#149 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476613&viewfull=1#post476613)
Two manipulations in one post. First one is trying to instill the idea that Captain Luc is scum and allied to me. Second manipulation being the doc thing again. You do not even try to contribute in any different way.
Post#157 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476623&viewfull=1#post476623)
You bash Northrend for saying that I'll show up and then you use the timezone difference to explain your reasonings. Really? He made a good point and you should've used the time to pressure someone else until I show up and you immediately attack him for a good idea.
Post#181 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476660&viewfull=1#post476660)
An attempt to undermine discussions of the day and to focus town's attention on me again before I even made a post.
Post#182 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476661&viewfull=1#post476661)
That's not true and does not contribute at all.
Post#184 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476663&viewfull=1#post476663)
Once again trying to manipulate everyone to see me as definite scum. This time even using insults which have no use other than to see their reactions (which is why one of the possibilities for me was that this is a reaction test, but it can't be if she goes to such lengths to get me lynched). Also throwing around words like "obvious evil", more manipulation.
Post#185 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476664&viewfull=1#post476664)
Pure troll post. Most likely made to reinforce the impression that this is a new player. It's utterly worthless.
Post#187 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476666&viewfull=1#post476666)
Sad that you won't be confirmed town, rhetorical questions. Even misreading Dalaran's post slightly to say "Am I really the only "power" role?!". This post reeks of the same fakeness and another attempt to reinforce being new. At this point it has happened so often that I absolutely cannot believe it anymore.
Post#189 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476668&viewfull=1#post476668)
Gives short answers, does not comment on anything else. Her explanation on why she targeted me is very unsatisfying. I can't see someone like this signing up to this FM. Not giving a thought about her night action, not bothering to contribute, being very irritating. I'd imagine you'd look at the other games and see how they went before you played your first game (for example during the time you sign up and the start of the game there's lots of possibilities to check out different games).
Post#190 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476669&viewfull=1#post476669)
I can't take this post seriously at all. I colored my claim with a green color so it stands out. You can't tell me Princess wouldn't immediately think of Citizen when I say Footman. It's the only role that can't take an action and that every mafia player knows no matter if he played RL mafia, the arcade mod or elsewhere. It also suggests that it's D2 and she apparently hasn't taken a look into the setup to know this? Ultimately my conclusion is that it's just another low-effort post to seem new once again.
Post#191 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476670&viewfull=1#post476670)
She corrects herself but the "damage" is done.

I'll stop here because I have responded to her other comments already.

As much as I said that her claim seemed believable in the beginning, going over it in detail I feel like I made a 180 and I am a lot more sure that she's scum.

M-FM Princess Calia Menethil

[M-FM Dalaran]

Since, I see him as town, he was pro town active yesterday and we have 6-7 random mafia roles that could be Framer/witch/Bus driver, it would be obv to assume that mafia or scourge used at least one role to miscredit him after his strong lead yesterday.

I agree that he would make a good target. Although I still only see the framer as the only real viable option in there. Maybe a mafia bus driver swapping the role preforming the kill with plague. Witch I think is very unlikely and town aligned BD is just too much of a coincidence.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I don't understand. He asks for "more proof" There is literally none.

How does anyone think analyzing what someone types, WHICH THEY CHECK AND ANALYZE FOR INCONSISTENCES BEFORE POSTING, is more effective than FOLLOWING A LEAD THAT HAS NO COUNTERCLAIMS.

Come the fuck on, learn to play mafia guys.

FOOTMEN CANT VISIT. PLAGUELANDS VISITED SILVERMOON. SILVERMOON DIED.

It's pretty simple.

Oh, you claim you check your posts for inconsistencies before you click the "submit" button? LOL that's hilarious. It sure does not seem that way. It's also a false assumption to make. You can't analyze posts? Yeah, okay.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Oh, you claim you check your posts for inconsistencies before you click the "submit" button? LOL that's hilarious. It sure does not seem that way. It's also a false assumption to make. You can't analyze posts? Yeah, okay.

No but thats what you guys claim to do. you're just mad because these start every couple months and you lose day 2. peace out broha

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

My read of Princess (posts as of now: 199):

Post#130 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476475&viewfull=1#post476475)
My first impression is: Who talks like that? Who says that?
I sure as hell didn't claim that I was new in my first FM. What benefit does it have? That people will forgive me bad plays? If this is the impression then the conclusion we can take for this game is that Princess is either just really new and inexperienced and doesn't give any thoughts about her paly.. or this is a setup for a gambit or various other weak plays.
Post#133 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476592&viewfull=1#post476592)
It's the very first post of Day2. Additionally this claim is very fishy. "Doc on me" trying to show confidence but directing town's actions at the same time. Manipulation if you ask me. On the other hand it's reinforcing that this is a new player as claimed before and it works because everyone here has played the Mafia mod before. The "Gg" seems weird though.
Post#134 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476594&viewfull=1#post476594)
More reinforcement that this person wants to be seen as new or genuinely is new.
Post#141 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476605&viewfull=1#post476605)
She claims that she has not given her action any thought and went by gutfeeling. I dare say without coming across as too full of myself that with a bit of thought you would find much better targets than me after D1. And Princess took another opportunity to claim that she is new. 4/4 posts so far.
Post#142 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476606&viewfull=1#post476606)
Voted correctly this time
Post#143 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476607&viewfull=1#post476607)
Is pushing town aggressively to follow her lead without giving it too much thought. Who says that? Nothing is even confirmed yet. Especially telling others to not let me talk. It's a clear sign of manipulation. The funny thing is that you even follow it up by saying that there's a "90% chance" of me being scum after being so completely convinced of me being scum just in that sentence before.
Post#145 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476609&viewfull=1#post476609)
You try to explain yourself and you are willing to think of the possibility that I'm town but it does not explain this absolute conviction you have shown before. There's a disparity between your explanation and your behaviour.
Post#149 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476613&viewfull=1#post476613)
Two manipulations in one post. First one is trying to instill the idea that Captain Luc is scum and allied to me. Second manipulation being the doc thing again. You do not even try to contribute in any different way.
Post#157 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476623&viewfull=1#post476623)
You bash Northrend for saying that I'll show up and then you use the timezone difference to explain your reasonings. Really? He made a good point and you should've used the time to pressure someone else until I show up and you immediately attack him for a good idea.
Post#181 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476660&viewfull=1#post476660)
An attempt to undermine discussions of the day and to focus town's attention on me again before I even made a post.
Post#182 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476661&viewfull=1#post476661)
That's not true and does not contribute at all.
Post#184 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476663&viewfull=1#post476663)
Once again trying to manipulate everyone to see me as definite scum. This time even using insults which have no use other than to see their reactions (which is why one of the possibilities for me was that this is a reaction test, but it can't be if she goes to such lengths to get me lynched). Also throwing around words like "obvious evil", more manipulation.
Post#185 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476664&viewfull=1#post476664)
Pure troll post. Most likely made to reinforce the impression that this is a new player. It's utterly worthless.
Post#187 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476666&viewfull=1#post476666)
Sad that you won't be confirmed town, rhetorical questions. Even misreading Dalaran's post slightly to say "Am I really the only "power" role?!". This post reeks of the same fakeness and another attempt to reinforce being new. At this point it has happened so often that I absolutely cannot believe it anymore.
Post#189 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476668&viewfull=1#post476668)
Gives short answers, does not comment on anything else. Her explanation on why she targeted me is very unsatisfying. I can't see someone like this signing up to this FM. Not giving a thought about her night action, not bothering to contribute, being very irritating. I'd imagine you'd look at the other games and see how they went before you played your first game (for example during the time you sign up and the start of the game there's lots of possibilities to check out different games).
Post#190 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476669&viewfull=1#post476669)
I can't take this post seriously at all. I colored my claim with a green color so it stands out. You can't tell me Princess wouldn't immediately think of Citizen when I say Footman. It's the only role that can't take an action and that every mafia player knows no matter if he played RL mafia, the arcade mod or elsewhere. It also suggests that it's D2 and she apparently hasn't taken a look into the setup to know this? Ultimately my conclusion is that it's just another low-effort post to seem new once again.
Post#191 (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/30542-MFM-XXV-The-Frozen-Throne?p=476670&viewfull=1#post476670)
She corrects herself but the "damage" is done.

I'll stop here because I have responded to her other comments already.

As much as I said that her claim seemed believable in the beginning, going over it in detail I feel like I made a 180 and I am a lot more sure that she's scum.

M-FM Princess Calia Menethil


this guy is going to be so butthurt he just typed all that just to die.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

No but thats what you guys claim to do. you're just mad because these start every couple months and you lose day 2. peace out broha

This barely makes sense. So do you say we claim to check each post for inconsistencies before posting? If so, no, I don't. Scums would because they have to pretend to be someone else. And it's highly likely that scums will miss an inconsistency or two in their play which is why analyzing posts works.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

This barely makes sense. So do you say we claim to check each post for inconsistencies before posting? If so, no, I don't. Scums would because they have to pretend to be someone else. And it's highly likely that scums will miss an inconsistency or two in their play which is why analyzing posts works.

All im saying, is if i was evil, i would check my posts carefully before posting to make sure I didn't let some evidence slip I was evil. (you)

town has nothing to hide from being 100% honest and open. (me)

does that make sense to your tiny brain?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

Take a moment to consider the scenario's which plague mentioned. They are all potential reasons you could have indeed received this feedback and he could be a footman. This is why not everyone will immediately jump on the train and lynch. (That and whatever happens will hopefully happen 36 hours from now with a lot of talking in between)

Also just because it was not mentioned Princess could be controlled by a Ventriloquist. I also believe this is unlikely.

My vote stays on Lordaron although I do support this lynch.
Now that you mention the Ventriloquist, I find it super likely. Why do you find it unlikely? It's a possible role and has been played before. It'd make sense to possess Princess too just because she gave such a good foundation to work with based on her only post D1.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Now that you mention the Ventriloquist, I find it super likely. Why do you find it unlikely? It's a possible role and has been played before. It'd make sense to possess Princess too just because she gave such a good foundation to work with based on her only post D1.

yeah because i definitely don't seem like the person who'd make this as their avatar

[M-FM Plaguelands]

All im saying, is if i was evil, i would check my posts carefully before posting to make sure I didn't let some evidence slip I was evil. (you)

town has nothing to hide from being 100% honest and open. (me)

does that make sense to your tiny brain?

Yeah, if I was evil I'd do so too, that's what I said. And you literally just reversed the roles from what I said. How are you even bringing anything useful to the table? If you are truthfully a detective the only thing useful about you is your night action and even that would be wasted on you. I find it soooo likely that you are vented. I just really really wish that no player in their right mind would play like you do.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Yeah, if I was evil I'd do so too, that's what I said. And you literally just reversed the roles from what I said. How are you even bringing anything useful to the table? If you are truthfully a detective the only thing useful about you is your night action and even that would be wasted on you. I find it soooo likely that you are vented. I just really really wish that no player in their right mind would play like you do.

So I'm ruining your forum mafia in two ways?

[M-FM Dalaran]

Now that you mention the Ventriloquist, I find it super likely. Why do you find it unlikely? It's a possible role and has been played before. It'd make sense to possess Princess too just because she gave such a good foundation to work with based on her only post D1.

Its what I have been chewing on while I keep up with chat. In your situation I am fighting confirmation bias that you are town. I have always been against believing in obscure situations to justify that someone is town and I need to go back through your posts again to see how I read you. Right now I am just following the chat to see how I feel about whats said as its said without any kind of hindsight. I am not in any rush.

[M-FM Northrend]

this guy is going to be so butthurt he just typed all that just to die.

I guarantee he won't be lynched today.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I guarantee he won't be lynched today.

well then fuck this shit

[M-FM Dalaran]

@Princess
Would you be willing to look at another player and say what you think of them? Try to put yourself in their shoes explaining why they would say what they said from your perspective.

[M-FM Northrend]

@Princess - contribute something useful, or hold your peace after your claim. You sound like a whiny 11 year old from SC2 Mafia which suggests a few things:

1) You're 11
2) You actually are Town but don't know how to play as Town
3) You're vented to act annoying as phuck to get yourself lynched

[M-FM Plaguelands]

So I'm ruining your forum mafia in two ways?

I can think of one way: You sign up to play FM but instead pretend like you just started a game of the SC2 mod.

My biggest gripe is that you are unwilling to put yourself in other people's shoes. You cannot see any other perspective and you do not even try to analyze anything or think about why someone would be doing a certain thing. The problem is not that you're new, the problem is that you're unwilling to play.

That is if you really are new and town. Which I find unlikely at this point as I said.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I can think of one way: You sign up to play FM but instead pretend like you just started a game of the SC2 mod.

My biggest gripe is that you are unwilling to put yourself in other people's shoes. You cannot see any other perspective and you do not even try to analyze anything or think about why someone would be doing a certain thing. The problem is not that you're new, the problem is that you're unwilling to play.

That is if you really are new and town. Which I find unlikely at this point as I said.

I'm just trying to make sure everyone knows you're evil. I'm not going to empathize with you, because you're scum. Of course you point out the 5% chance of you not being scum.

I expect you to have said everything you've said so far, what else would you do, its your job. It's just pointless for me to play these games because I know that you're scum. People can either believe me, or not. But there are no guarantees there is another invest role at all.

That one guy coming out and saying he was healed, btw, means that I'm not the other evil team having "targeted" you for killing and noticed you were immune.

"M-FM Plaguelands visited Silvermoon last night."

"Silvermoon was found dead".

I'm sorry, but nothing will ever be 100% certain in this game, thats what makes it a game. If it was 100% certain this game would be not fun. I got, with only very unlikely things happening, that you are: LYING about your role, and VISITED the dead person. I can say with 90ish% certainty (probably more statistically if people targeted randomly, probably around 90% if people targeted based on day 1 chat) that you are scum.

And you know what? In mafia, if you are 90% someone is scum, thats about as sure as you are ever going to be.

Me "putting myself in your shoes" etc, and going along with your arguments will only fuel the towns doubts about my claim. I have nothing to gain from going along with your hypothetical scenarios. The only way I come out of this day on top, and as a success, is if you are dead by the end of it.

So please, town, take my 90% certainty, no chance of neutral roles, and trust my sincereity.

Plaguelands is a scum.

[M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard]

how would you feel if I said you were scum?

I'll be sad ;_;

[M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard]

I have two strong town reads and Princess is one of them. I will keep my vote on Plaguelands. From my experience, there are usually 1 really active scum from each team, 1 lurker scum, and the third could be either or between. That being said. I think Plaguelands is one of the active scum.

The only way for me to be convinced Plaguelands is town, is that someone else come up and defend Plaguelands.

[M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard]

Come on guys, lets get this day over with. Lynch the baddie and doc on me. Town wins, gg

It's better to maximize the day's length so we could talk and find any information from some of the lurkers.

[M-FM King Magni Bronzebeard]

Sounds more fun! Sucks that I won't be confirmed town though. Am I really the only "power" role?! Are the rest of you all citizens? ROLECALL

I am sure we have like 4-5 PRS and like 7 footmen.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

I am sure we have like 4-5 PRS and like 7 footmen.

Is that standard? Is the "random" a weighted random?

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I'm just trying to make sure everyone knows you're evil. I'm not going to empathize with you, because you're scum. Of course you point out the 5% chance of you not being scum.

I expect you to have said everything you've said so far, what else would you do, its your job. It's just pointless for me to play these games because I know that you're scum. People can either believe me, or not. But there are no guarantees there is another invest role at all.

That one guy coming out and saying he was healed, btw, means that I'm not the other evil team having "targeted" you for killing and noticed you were immune.

"M-FM Plaguelands visited Silvermoon last night."

"Silvermoon was found dead".

I'm sorry, but nothing will ever be 100% certain in this game, thats what makes it a game. If it was 100% certain this game would be not fun. I got, with only very unlikely things happening, that you are: LYING about your role, and VISITED the dead person. I can say with 90ish% certainty (probably more statistically if people targeted randomly, probably around 90% if people targeted based on day 1 chat) that you are scum.

And you know what? In mafia, if you are 90% someone is scum, thats about as sure as you are ever going to be.

Me "putting myself in your shoes" etc, and going along with your arguments will only fuel the towns doubts about my claim. I have nothing to gain from going along with your hypothetical scenarios. The only way I come out of this day on top, and as a success, is if you are dead by the end of it.

So please, town, take my 90% certainty, no chance of neutral roles, and trust my sincereity.

Plaguelands is a scum.
What I see in this post is a complete turnaround from your previous behaviour. You have purposefully avoided using your brain for the whole game and this is the first post where you've shown some thought and actually made arguments as to why I am scum. Good job.

Now, I somehow remembered to check the setup again because of your post so thanks to you.

There is a tailor in this game. I see this as the main thing that'd make this gambit work. It came to me an hour ago or something and as I wanted to check the setup I forgot what I wanted to do..
Let's say you are the Tailor (might just be an ally of you too). You dress me at night, push a lynch on me during the next day and BAM you are confirmed as a power role. How's that sound? The big reason why this is not so unlikely is because the Tailor is a fairly decent role but nothing too extraordinary. It's not like the Ventriloquist where you have to kind of double your activity and can possess someone (which is why this role is not used often, it's bothersome) and it has uses like these where you can try a gambit and if it works it pays off immensely.
Now if you also had a Ventriloquist on the same team then that'd just be the icing on the cake but that's not likely at all I think.

At this point I'm convinced that you're scum.

Regarding your post: If it's unlikely that an action interfered with your investigative result, what is the chance then that you found a killing scum on N1? The game of probability is a bitch because anything can be statistically unlikely. It's not a great argument. If you can base your probability on a bit of reasoning then that makes your claim a lot more sensible.
Besides, FM20 had some of the most statistically unlikely shit happening but it did happen. On N1 even. Two doctors using both of their two actions on the same targets, a Cult Leader recruiting a Scum Leader, the same Cult Leader getting found out by a Cop, the Bus Driver switching the Cult Leader's original target that was the Unique Beast role with the Scum Leader to make the Scum Leader recruit happen.. all on N1.

So stop holding onto this "90%" bullshit. It's pulled out of thin air. I mean who does that anyway? You don't just pick a completely random player to investigate as you did. Atleast I know I would never do that and I hope most of the people here would atleast agree about that..

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

What I see in this post is a complete turnaround from your previous behaviour. You have purposefully avoided using your brain for the whole game and this is the first post where you've shown some thought and actually made arguments as to why I am scum. Good job.

Now, I somehow remembered to check the setup again because of your post so thanks to you.

There is a tailor in this game. I see this as the main thing that'd make this gambit work. It came to me an hour ago or something and as I wanted to check the setup I forgot what I wanted to do..
Let's say you are the Tailor (might just be an ally of you too). You dress me at night, push a lynch on me during the next day and BAM you are confirmed as a power role. How's that sound? The big reason why this is not so unlikely is because the Tailor is a fairly decent role but nothing too extraordinary. It's not like the Ventriloquist where you have to kind of double your activity and can possess someone (which is why this role is not used often, it's bothersome) and it has uses like these where you can try a gambit and if it works it pays off immensely.
Now if you also had a Ventriloquist on the same team then that'd just be the icing on the cake but that's not likely at all I think.

At this point I'm convinced that you're scum.

Regarding your post: If it's unlikely that an action interfered with your investigative result, what is the chance then that you found a killing scum on N1? The game of probability is a bitch because anything can be statistically unlikely. It's not a great argument. If you can base your probability on a bit of reasoning then that makes your claim a lot more sensible.
Besides, FM20 had some of the most statistically unlikely shit happening but it did happen. On N1 even. Two doctors using both of their two actions on the same targets, a Cult Leader recruiting a Scum Leader, the same Cult Leader getting found out by a Cop, the Bus Driver switching the Cult Leader's original target that was the Unique Beast role with the Scum Leader to make the Scum Leader recruit happen.. all on N1.

So stop holding onto this "90%" bullshit. It's pulled out of thin air. I mean who does that anyway? You don't just pick a completely random player to investigate as you did. Atleast I know I would never do that and I hope most of the people here would atleast agree about that..

I don't know what else to say. Except you visited the dead. And I'm a detective. Seeing as how you think I am the one that is evil, leads me to believe you are 100% scum.

If town is smart they will hang you today. It would be a shame to waste an opportunity to lynch such lying scum.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

As for the argument of me being scum: If I was scum I would literally be the worst scum player ever. This is the exact opposite of how you be scum, if jester/exec is not possible. I have no out if you are town. with more town than scum, it would be retarded of me to do a 1 for 1 trade.

town, i beg of you. vote plaguelands as scum of the day

[M-FM Mal'ganis]

I am pretty certain that Princess believes their post for the very reason outlined by Plaguelands. It sounds like Princess is playing an Sc2mod. There is next to zero reason to claim that way if not a detective/tracker. If Plaguelands flips footman, Princess is next on the chopping block.

There are incredibly low odds of a witch or evil bus driver. A town bus driver would claim so Princess would have a real guilty, so we can eliminate that. If they were active enough to post the action, they are active enough to claim.

An evil bus driver would require the role to get zero feedback, which I think is inconsistent with bus driver in this setup. Does bus driving leave feedback?

A witch doesn't leave feedback, but the odds are remote. Plaguelands was very townie looking at the end of Day 1, so I doubt a scumteam would witch him to frame his as checking Plague is not that townie. Even removing the scenario of Plague being townread, that leaves a (1/19 * 1/17) chance for this scenario to be true.

My concern is we have a scum tracker who wanted to see if Plague was a PR. That makes a lot more sense than town tracking what appeared to be town.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I don't know what else to say. Except you visited the dead. And I'm a detective. Seeing as how you think I am the one that is evil, leads me to believe you are 100% scum.

If town is smart they will hang you today. It would be a shame to waste an opportunity to lynch such lying scum.

Of course I would believe it the way you've been playing. I'd expect a new player to behave a loooot differently than you did and I'm reading you as scum. Not much to say about that. I've given a lot of thoughts and made lengthy posts, now it's up to the town to decide if they are inclined to believe me or not. Although there's still a lot of time to go back and forth on this.

I will try to find the time to make more reads either way, you'll see them in my last will (which will be public upon my death no matter when that will be). Will start on them after tomorrow my time though.

[M-FM Dalaran]

There is a tailor in this game. I see this as the main thing that'd make this gambit work. It came to me an hour ago or something and as I wanted to check the setup I forgot what I wanted to do..
Let's say you are the Tailor (might just be an ally of you too). You dress me at night, push a lynch on me during the next day and BAM you are confirmed as a power role. How's that sound? The big reason why this is not so unlikely is because the Tailor is a fairly decent role but nothing too extraordinary. It's not like the Ventriloquist where you have to kind of double your activity and can possess someone (which is why this role is not used often, it's bothersome) and it has uses like these where you can try a gambit and if it works it pays off immensely.
Now if you also had a Ventriloquist on the same team then that'd just be the icing on the cake but that's not likely at all I think.

At this point I'm convinced that you're scum.

I do not agree with this situation. If this was the case he would not have revealed first thing in the day. He probably would have waited to get a signal from his tailor that the night action went through.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

As for the argument of me being scum: If I was scum I would literally be the worst scum player ever. This is the exact opposite of how you be scum, if jester/exec is not possible. I have no out if you are town. with more town than scum, it would be retarded of me to do a 1 for 1 trade.

town, i beg of you. vote plaguelands as scum of the day

That's why I find the Tailor to be one of the very likely roles in the game. Otherwise this gambit would barely make sense for scum that wants to survive the game. It'd just backfire if I was footman but who knows what was planned anyway except for the scums.

[Spider]

Woof. Wish I had time to type. Woof.

I'm split, But I feel that the princesses input sounds real. Woof.

Problem is, Mafia can scum hunt since they have the other team to look for. So being a scum hunting town pro does not make you town. Woof.

Woof, also plagues abiboilt it high, so he the chef can really butter the bread. Woof.

[M-FM Plaguelands]

I do not agree with this situation. If this was the case he would not have revealed first thing in the day. He probably would have waited to get a signal from his tailor that the night action went through.

That'd be the case if he is the Tailor himself, which would make sense. Who else would you act out the gambit? I don't think there's any need to relay that task to anyone else except for the Tailor.

[M-FM Princess Calia Menethil]

Of course I would believe it the way you've been playing. I'd expect a new player to behave a loooot differently than you did and I'm reading you as scum. Not much to say about that. I've given a lot of thoughts and made lengthy posts, now it's up to the town to decide if they are inclined to believe me or not. Although there's still a lot of time to go back and forth on this.

I will try to find the time to make more reads either way, you'll see them in my last will (which will be public upon my death no matter when that will be). Will start on them after tomorrow my time though.

Yeah, and you fit the profile of a butthurt person who TRY HARD day 1 to come across as town, as layed out by mal'ganis above, so that no one would track you. You are now butthurt that you got tracked when a pro mafia player wouldn't of tracked you, and I have thus ruined your day.

Come on guys, only 5 votes for plaguelands so far... how many do we need to put him on trial?