Trenix's Suggestions/Feedback

[Trenix]

Rev: I have modified this post:
Denied.
Compromise.
Accepted.


Feedback

- All these new settings on startup are becoming unnecessary, complicating, and lengthy. That's not very userfriendly for newbs. Rev: I'll include some crash-course instructions in the chat log, along the lines of "Press 'Choose Variant' and then 'Start' to get going quickly!".
- The PM system is way too revealing. It's pointless to use because it will get you killed. Rev: It's highly OP otherwise. I like the balance.
- Many people get kicked out of the game in the beginning, there is a lot of unnecessary lag. Rev: Not much I can do about that.

Bugs

- Random generated names could have duplicates, meaning that two players can have the exact same name.
- Role list stays up when looking through chat log.


Suggestions

- Make it easier for a spy to see who's speaking, whether a mason or mafia. Possibly add a color identification.
- When a player selects a female model, she should get a randomly generated female name.
- Random generated names should be more noticeable for the users. It's difficult to see what name you've received.
- Reduce the length for some of the random generated names, some names have titles that stand out and are rather lengthy in the graveyard and action panel. Rev: I'll reduce the chance but there will always be some oddball long ones. It's unavoidable.
- When a player PMs, an icon should appear above the players head for a few seconds. It definitely shouldn't be caught in the logs. Rev: I will never make any part of the game reliant on a world-graphics notification. There are many, many reasons for this.
- Spy should be able to hear PMs. Rev: How does that make sense? If the Spy can hear it, so can everyone else. Besides, if I added this, it would be a huge nerf to PMs on top of the current nerfs.
- Replace escort with bartender (AKA barman). Beer is definitely a role-block and makes way more sense than an escort. Rev: Blizzard must not win.
- Replace consort with conartist. It was a very bad idea to make a role which used to be part of the town; mafia. It actually got me killed a few times and I still am having difficulty accepting it. Conartists fits nicely and is definitely a distraction. Rev: Blizzard must not win.
- There should only be one serial killer in game, there is too many killings otherwise. Either that, or only let him kill every other day. Rev: I won't force a limit like that. It's also unlikely that I'll add a limitation to SK kills.
- During the lynching phase, there should be a timer that counts down the whole duration, rather than just the last 30 seconds. Many people actually believe that they're required to vote because of this misleading timer. Rev: The timer is there to instill a sense of urgency. If a lot of people ask for this, then I'll change it.

System Suggestions

-> Suspect System

Like the graveyard system, make a list that players could make themselves for possible suspects. To add a suspect, simply right click the player. I wouldn't recommend it being a command because typing is just a waste of time. To remove a suspect, click a x button next to the name on the list. I could even already think of roles that could reveal a player's suspect list. For example, an undertaker could reveal and add possible suspects from a dead player. A thief from the mafia, is able to find out a living player's possible suspects.

Rev: I'll pass on this suggestion. One of the reasons for this is that it's too convoluted.

-> Achievement System

Simply add achievements which could give us rewards. Some examples...

- Last Man Standing: Be the last one alive.
- Civilized: Win as a citizen five times.
- Bandwagon: Be the last vote to send a player to trial.
- Reckless: Kill 20 players during the course of the game.

This is a great way to get players to actually play those avoided roles. I'm sure you can think of many more achievements.

Rev: I won't add achievements until I know for sure how much more space the banks can handle. Achievements need a LOT of stats collecting and it'll probably break everything until I can get the limit increased. I really want to add them, though.

Suggestions For Additional Roles
Since you've confirmed that you will make many more.

Town
Judge [Max:1] - If there is a tie for the lynching, the judge will decide who should be picked. The judge will also be the only one to determine the outcome of trials, until he is dead of course. However, the judge is unable to vote.
Priest [Max:1] - Is unable to vote. If he's attacked, he will miraculously come back to life meaning that he's immune to death. The only way to kill him is by lynching. Can also cure possessed players into a citizen.
Psychiatrist - Can turn serial killers and schizophrenics into citizens.
Dentist - Makes a player unable to speak for the next discussion, however the player can still vote and defend himself in trial.
Miller - Is innocent but appears as mafia to sheriff.
Judas - Is innocent but becomes a traitor after he's put on trial and then determined innocent. A Traitor will become part of the mafia with no abilities, besides voting and discussing at night.

Mafia
Body Guard [Max:1] - Protects a mafia member from a possible vigilante attack.
Terrorist - Terrorizes a player into not speaking for the next discussion, player can still vote and defend himself in trial.

Neutral
Cult Leader [Max:1] - Instead of killing, turns people into followers. They're able to talk at night and win whenever everyone is part of their cult. Followers return back to their original roles once cult leader is dead.
Possessed OR Schizophrenic- Is able to speak to the dead, can only kill two people and must be the last man standing in order to win.

Orange = Last Added/Updated

[FearMyWrench]

IMO, if there was private messaging, power roles would be absurdly overpowered. That's what balances the investigator in a way... the fact that if you find evidence and you want everyone to know, you also become a target. If you could bypass that and just private message people who you investigated as town and rally some votes without the mafia knowing? I don't think it would be very balanced.

[Trenix]

IMO, if there was private messaging, power roles would be absurdly overpowered. That's what balances the investigator in a way... the fact that if you find evidence and you want everyone to know, you also become a target. If you could bypass that and just private message people who you investigated as town and rally some votes without the mafia knowing? I don't think it would be very balanced.


I played a similar Mafia game in Warcraft III where you were able to private message without a problem. It didn't make anyone overpowered, sure an investigator could private message. Yet, so could the mafia, tricking other players to believe he's a detective and so on. I loved to do that actually, it really made the game fun. Currently, there is way too much going on. I like to mess with people one at a time. Not saying to remove speaking locally, just allow us to PM as well.

[Faceless]

I like the idea of moving around but I agree that only being able to speak locally is what balances Sheriffs and Investigators. I agree that it would be really fun to mess with people but I think if I was Sheriff I could just PM around and get a list of everyone's roles/suspected roles in about 2-3 nights without ever exposing myself. Then when the time was right I could announce my role, get doctors to heal me, and just start railing off the mobsters' names until they're all lynched.

As for naming, that's a really good point. Having a default Player name is almost an advantage because you're a bit harder to distinguish from the other Players, causing an unintended advantage. I suggest making 2-3 lists of names (first, middle, last) and have nameless players randomly assigned names so that they're unique and don't have the advantage of being nameless. I think people let their name default just because it makes them less likely to lynching if they have a boring name.

[Trenix]

Why don't I get a response? :-\

[Dark.Revenant]

Actions speak louder than words. PM is currently an optional feature.

[Trenix]

Actions speak louder than words. PM is currently an optional feature.


I've noticed that, but how do you get it to work?

[Dark.Revenant]

It tells you at the beginning. "-pm Justin Bieber baby baby baby oh, baby baby baby no..."

[Trenix]

It tells you at the beginning. "-pm Justin Bieber baby baby baby oh, baby baby baby no..."


Wow, I've never noticed that. Alright, thanks for that advice.

[Faceless]

I really really like the idea of dentist/terror roles. Though I'm not sure dentist should be available to town because a role on the town's side like that could screw over the town more than help it. And when I say screw it over, I mean more than a dumb vigilante would.

I had a similar idea for the neutral cult leader idea, but I'm not sure that it would be balanced. If there was a way to balance it then it'd be really cool to have as an option.

[Trenix]

I really really like the idea of dentist/terror roles. Though I'm not sure dentist should be available to town because a role on the town's side like that could screw over the town more than help it. And when I say screw it over, I mean more than a dumb vigilante would.


I think a vigilante could do far worse, since they could kill innocent people. A dentist could only make someone stop talking. They're still able to vote, so I don't see how they could mess everything up. I mean, even consort can block roles, which I also believe is far worse than silencing someone for just a day.

[Faceless]

I suppose it would rely heavily on the situation. Vigilantes can and will screw the town over, but I feel like discussions play the biggest role when it comes to people dying. If one person can't talk, it can completely change the outcome of a game. He wouldn't be able to share his findings, influence the lynchings, defend himself from lynchings, or get other points across. Maybe he knows who the last Mafioso is but can't tell the others because a dentist blocked him, thus allowing the Mafioso to kill yet another person.

I think it would definitely be more common to see a vigilante screw the town, but in the event that a dentist manages to really mess things up it could be a bit worse. As I said, depends heavily on the situation and game setup.

By the way, the Witness idea sounds like a cool one. How would the Miller work, though?

[Trenix]

If one person can't talk, it can completely change the outcome of a game. He wouldn't be able to share his findings, influence the lynchings, defend himself from lynchings, or get other points across. Maybe he knows who the last Mafioso is but can't tell the others because a dentist blocked him, thus allowing the Mafioso to kill yet another person.

I see, I agree with the trial part. Maybe allow him to at least speak at his trial to explain to everyone that he was silenced.



By the way, the Witness idea sounds like a cool one. How would the Miller work, though?


It's just a way to get people off guard, you test their alignments. Mafia members could defend themselves saying, "I'm not the mafia! I'm the miller!". So they would be most likely watched cautiously, or just a target for the vigilante.

[Shepard]

The Miller looks like it could be a very interesting role.

[Wabuffett]

The problem I have with certain roles e.g. Millers, Body Guards, Drug Dealers, and Jesters, is that they punish correct play.

In a setup with 14 players max, I would recommend against even introducing them, as they'd be included in the random roles.

My two cents.

[Trenix]

[size=2][font=arial]The problem I have with certain roles e.g. Millers, Body Guards, Drug Dealers, and Jesters, is that they punish correct play.

Correct play? Correct play is to deceive each other until the biggest liars win. These roles would just add a twist, making it more challenging and fun. Right now it's obviously basic, which is fine. However, there isn't much to do and talk about, it's all about actions. That's probably why most players want a 1 minute day length game. This is not supposed to be an action game...

With the Jester, you're right. I never thought about a priest provoking the mafia to kill him so he could take one mafia member down. So I switched his role, making him survive one attack. That way, he would have a very large voice for the town, as a preacher should. We need some more random roles to spice the game up.

[Dark.Revenant]

I might add roles later in the day, but for now I'm implementing some of your suggestions/feedback.

I will wait until I have written a SHA-1 algorithm before implementing points/ranks. It IS coming, though.

[Trenix]

I might add roles later in the day, but for now I'm implementing some of your suggestions/feedback.

I will wait until I have written a SHA-1 algorithm before implementing points/ranks. It IS coming, though.


Nice to hear! I update my suggestions regularly as I play, you have a nice game coming along. Tell me what you think about the judas.

[Trenix]

Nice, I'll keep this up for people who wanna take a look at it. Afterwards I might keep some up but remove the ones that were denied. Obviously I didn't expect you to accept all of them. But here's some replies...


Terrain doesn't look very mafia related. Rev: It's SC2. What do you expect?

To be more specific, I would of expected a more urban area rather than a rural one. You could add roads, cars, city lights, all the good stuff but definitely not crops. I have a map called Infestation: Takeover, which is pretty much a apocalyptic setting, however it still looks pretty urban. My project is abandoned currently, but you could check it out to get an example of a somewhat urban setting.


Day 1 shouldn't have lynchings, only a discussion. The discussion's length should be cut in half as well. Rev: The discussion is going from 40 to 30 seconds in the next update. However, if you don't want a lynch on day 1, then either wait until the end of the day or choose to start at night.

I don't believe it's the discussion time that's the problem, I think it's more of the lynching on the first day. Players don't enjoy voting on the first day because of the possible suspicion, which I don't blame them for. All this time we wait and nothing gets really done. It's good for an introduction and possibly some PMing, but that's about it. I don't like the night start because someone always dies and the players that do die, didn't even have a chance to play. Extremely bad idea for new players. Speaking of new players, lynching on the first day also promotes them to vote, making them suspects or possibly killing an innocent player.

[Wabuffett]

Miller - Correct play is to lynch those found guilty, and the correct play for a cop is to check those he has no read on. Having the guilty run a risk of being innocent punishes town for the otherwise optimal play, and the risk is unavoidable. For the same reason, I don't believe in an immune-to-detection godfather in a 13-man game, with say 4 mafia, 1 of which is hooker, 2 cops, 1 doc, and the balance citizen. Save the crazy setups for large games.

Body Guard - Vig is supposed to seek out mafia and SK as best he can, and eliminate them. Not only does a body guard punish the role (note invulnerable GF does too, but not as strongly since this should be followed with a lynch), but also revealing the vig? You can say this is for strategy, but it's just hurting an already weak role (vig).

Drug Dealer - See Miller.

TLDR: Town should be working through the record, tracing mafia where they lie, not playing coin-flip games on whether or not to trust what little info they have. Mafia should be about analysis, not fun-fun mish-mash.

[Trenix]

[size=2][font=arial]Miller - Correct play is to lynch those found guilty, and the correct play for a cop is to check those he has no read on. Having the guilty run a risk of being innocent punishes town for the otherwise optimal play, and the risk is unavoidable. For the same reason, I don't believe in an immune-to-detection godfather in a 13-man game, with say 4 mafia, 1 of which is hooker, 2 cops, 1 doc, and the balance citizen. Save the crazy setups for large games.

There is always more people part of the town than mafia. So I believe it's quite fair. Sheriffs have the power to figure out who's mafia, which some people actually believe is overpowered. In my opinion, it has probably the biggest power in the town faction. With this power can have it's disadvantages. So therefore, a sheriff may be unlucky detecting the miller as the mafia. This also gives mafia a defense, which could be countered if you actually know the real miller. In addition, the investigator can figure out if the miller is actually a miller, since he will not have weapons.



Body Guard - Vig is supposed to seek out mafia and SK as best he can, and eliminate them. Not only does a body guard punish the role (note invulnerable GF does too, but not as strongly since this should be followed with a lynch), but also revealing the vig? You can say this is for strategy, but it's just hurting an already weak role (vig).

DR has replied about the doctor's part with revealing the player. So I guess the revealing part shouldn't be implemented, but a body guard still sounds like an interesting role.



Drug Dealer - See Miller.

I figured that the drug dealer should probably be limited on the amount of players, or the targeted player should only show as a drug dealer for just one day.



TLDR: Town should be working through the record, tracing mafia where they lie, not playing coin-flip games on whether or not to trust what little info they have. Mafia should be about analysis, not fun-fun mish-mash.


Still feel mafia is about deception. It's not about searching every player until you find the mafia. We're here to lie and mess with each other, acting like we know but being surprised when we're wrong.

[Dark.Revenant]

To be more specific, I would of expected a more urban area rather than a rural one. You could add roads, cars, city lights, all the good stuff but definitely not crops. I have a map called Infestation: Takeover, which is pretty much a apocalyptic setting, however it still looks pretty urban. My project is abandoned currently, but you could check it out to get an example of a somewhat urban setting.


Mafia traditionally takes place in an Italian village. I had that in mind when making the terrain.

[Omgproberush]

Yeah, the terrain feels fine to me. It feels like a small time town, which is what it's supposed to.

[Wabuffett]

There is always more people part of the town than mafia. So I believe it's quite fair. Sheriffs have the power to figure out who's mafia, which some people actually believe is overpowered. In my opinion, it has probably the biggest power in the town faction. With this power can have it's disadvantages. So therefore, a sheriff may be unlucky detecting the miller as the mafia. This also gives mafia a defense, which could be countered if you actually know the real miller. In addition, the investigator can figure out if the miller is actually a miller, since he will not have weapons.

Look at the power roles. Doc, cop, vig, consort, investigator, mason, godfather, hooker, serial killer. While they, for the most part, add variance, they also come with a great deal of strategy.
To me, miller looks like a role that's added for the sake of variance, and any strategy shift is focused on mitigating the damage.



Still feel mafia is about deception. It's not about searching every player until you find the mafia. We're here to lie and mess with each other, acting like we know but being surprised when we're wrong.


Exactly. It's about deception and deduction. When I lose, I want it to be because the mafia tricked us, not because we nabbed the miller instead of the last mafia.

[Trenix]

Look at the power roles. Doc, cop, vig, consort, investigator, mason, godfather, hooker, serial killer. While they, for the most part, add variance, they also come with a great deal of strategy.
To me, miller looks like a role that's added for the sake of variance, and any strategy shift is focused on mitigating the damage.

Serial killers kill role-blocks when they're blocked. So this type of "variance" it's not something that's new.



Exactly. It's about deception and deduction. When I lose, I want it to be because the mafia tricked us, not because we nabbed the miller instead of the last mafia.


The game is about discussing, not using your actions to figure out who's who. If the miller told you various of times to not kill him because he's innocent, if you proceed with it, then it's you're own fault. You should of used an investigator to figure out if he was lying. Basically, you're asking for a game with pure actions and conformity, rather than discussions and explanations. Why you think people actually enjoy trials?

By the way, these ideas are not all from the top of my head. The miller is an actual role in the real mafia game.

[Wabuffett]

Serial killers kill role-blocks when they're blocked. So this type of "variance" it's not something that's new.

Which I disagree with. By the way, where did you read that?
I don't see it mentioned at http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Serial_killer and explicitly denied at


Killers will not kill.


The game is about discussing, not using your actions to figure out who's who. If the miller told you various of times to not kill him because he's innocent, if you proceed with it, then it's you're own fault. You should of used an investigator to figure out if he was lying.

You should let a miller go because he pleads innocent? What do mafia claim in your games? Should I have an investigator check each guilty mafia, just in case? Why not have him check each innocent reading too; we can't be too sure if there's a godfather there.

What's the point of the cop role, (not to mention also the investigator role, which you advocated using to detect millers), if one can't use "actions to figure out who's who"?

A miller role, is found, is more-or-less a guaranteed mislynch, but clearly does nothing if not targeted.

I hate follow the cop games too, but my solution is not to make the cop start a mislynch. It's to add a hooker, and a lot more citizens instead of other town power roles, but I'm sure you already knew the alternatives.

[Dark.Revenant]

That Serial Killer kill-your-roleblocker property is optional, jsyk.

[Trenix]

Which I disagree with. By the way, where did you read that?
I don't see it mentioned at http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Serial_killer and explicitly denied at


Killers will not kill.

It was added because it was a cool idea. It doesn't have to be the exact mafia game, just close to it. The mafia game is always altered...



You should let a miller go because he pleads innocent? What do mafia claim in your games? Should I have an investigator check each guilty mafia, just in case? Why not have him check each innocent reading too; we can't be too sure if there's a godfather there.

What's the point of the cop role, (not to mention also the investigator role, which you advocated using to detect millers), if one can't use "actions to figure out who's who"?

A miller role, is found, is more-or-less a guaranteed mislynch, but clearly does nothing if not targeted.

I hate follow the cop games too, but my solution is not to make the cop start a mislynch. It's to add a hooker, and a lot more citizens instead of other town power roles, but I'm sure you already knew the alternatives.


You can always customize the games the way you like. If you really despise miller that much, then don't add it. Just remember that the sheriff knows right away that a player is a mafia. I don't see how that isn't fair, it can easily alter a game to the town's advantage.

[Wabuffett]

Just fyi, you can't say that serial killers killing roleblockers is nothing new, so there's no problem against more variance, and then say it's added recently as a cool new idea.

As for sheriff instantly knowing, well, mafia can instantly kill too. Gee, things look really simple when we ignore time.

I respect creativity, but I don't believe many of the mafia roles (e.g. Cult Leader, Paranoid Gun Owner, Bomb, Arsonist/Firefighter, Bus Driver, Miller) should be implemented in a game with max size 14. It just doesn't work, and even if I wished to avoid them, they'd mess up the random.

If someone else has questions, I'd be happy to discuss further, but for now, I've made my case.

[Shepard]

I respect creativity, but I don't believe many of the mafia roles (e.g. Cult Leader, Paranoid Gun Owner, Bomb, Arsonist/Firefighter, Bus Driver, Miller) should be implemented in a game with max size 14. It just doesn't work, and even if I wished to avoid them, they'd mess up the random.


QFT.

[Dark.Revenant]

You know, when I add hard-hitting roles like that, there will be check box options in the random roles for excluding certain sets of roles, such as those chaotic ones.

[Trenix]

Just fyi, you can't say that serial killers killing roleblockers is nothing new, so there's no problem against more variance, and then say it's added recently as a cool new idea.

It's nothing new as in, it's already in the game. So adding more roles like that wouldn't not make things any different.



As for sheriff instantly knowing, well, mafia can instantly kill too. Gee, things look really simple when we ignore time.

Once again, there is fewer mafia than there is people. Much fewer...



You know, when I add hard-hitting roles like that, there will be check box options in the random roles for excluding certain sets of roles, such as those chaotic ones.


I was just about to suggest that. There should be a system which will allow you to select roles that you want for the randomize setup. Also about...


Many people get kicked out of the game in the beginning, there is a lot of unnecessary lag. [b][i][color=red]Rev: Not much I can do about that.

Is there many triggers that startup at once? Is there triggers that are intensively long? Maybe you should break them up with timers, having them slowly start up in the beginning, rather than all at once. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't mind if they'd have to wait with a message saying, "Map Initializing". It's better to not drop players.


Rev: The discussion is going from 40 to 30 seconds in the next update. However, if you don't want a lynch on day 1, then either wait until the end of the day or choose to start at night.

I mean to say that discussions should only be short for the first day only, now it feels like they're just way too short.

[Trenix]

Been updating the original post a lot. Hope you could check it out, especially with the pm system. You're able to PM people who are not in your conversation in the night phase.

[THE BOSS]

the thing im finding is theres alot of cheating using skype ...

[Trenix]

the thing im finding is theres alot of cheating using skype ...


The only real form of cheating is being dead and revealing the mafia, sheriff, ect. Other than that, I don't see how a player who's part of the town and a player is part of the mafia, can work together to cheat. I use ventrilo with my friend and we begin lying to each other on even there. Even as he was dead, he has mislead me into killing my own sheriff, thinking I was going to kill one of his mafia members. You gotta remember that if you screw your team over, you will be the one who will also lose in the end. Just because you're dead, doesn't mean you're out of the game.

[Faceless]

Trenix has a point. I use ventrilo with my friends when I play and I usually lie to them just as much as I lie to the strangers in town.

I'm sure there are some people who would cheat using a 3rd party communication thing like vent or skype. I wouldn't be too worried about those people though-- they're usually too dumb to be a threat. What bothers me is how people spill roles in afterlife chat which leads to people telling their living friends over vent/skype. It'd be hard to correct that without totally removing the chat though, so it's best to just deal with it I think.

[Nameless]

the thing im finding is theres alot of cheating using skype ...


The only real form of cheating is being dead and revealing the mafia, sheriff, ect. Other than that, I don't see how a player who's part of the town and a player is part of the mafia, can work together to cheat. I use ventrilo with my friend and we begin lying to each other on even there. Even as he was dead, he has mislead me into killing my own sheriff, thinking I was going to kill one of his mafia members. You gotta remember that if you screw your team over, you will be the one who will also lose in the end. Just because you're dead, doesn't mean you're out of the game.


If I play on skype with some buddies this is generally what we do as well. We go on mute til trial time and whenever we type we go on mute for an extended period. The only talking we do usually happens at night, and even then we lie. The only time we come out with who we are is when we reveal it to everyone (Usually in death, unless we are sheriffs). One of my friends has a 90% Hooker/Consort pick rate though and he always manages to role block our other friend almost every night. We don't tell each other who's who, as it ruins the game. Anyone who is helping the mafia when they are in the town is having fun losing I guess. I don't see the point in it, it's more fun to randomize names and keep playing the guessing game.

[Eldrazor]

Yes, I've used the b.net chat to chat with other people too, usually when I'm dead. However, it was not in my best interest, as one of the people I played with was afraid of me because I'm pretty good at the game, and he always tried to get to know who I chose as name. Because he recognised my playing style, I got killed the first night half of the time... :/ That led me to not picking a name at all and being silent or playing noob until I could kill a mafia member/serial killer.
One game, he convinced me he was sheriff through the chat and made me kill someone else. Next night, I was dead.
So really, I don't see skype being any useful. Next to that you can use it to your advantage, and say dead sheriff skyper X told you Y was mafia.

[Trenix]

No reply from DR? =\

[Dark.Revenant]

There, I replied.

Also, don't expect developers to take many suggestions. I'm actually probably one of the most malliable ones you'll meet, and even then I turn down most suggestions. Don't feel disheartened if I say no to a suggestion> :P

[Faceless]

I'm actually surprised you reply as much as you do. It's pretty cool to be able to come onto the forums and know that you're replying to people.

[Trenix]

I'm back to updating my thread. Enjoy DR.

[Trenix]

Updated thread quite a bit. A response would be appreciated and I hope you take recognition of the name selection removal. ;D Bout time we fight back on harassment and racism.

[Dark.Revenant]

Replied.

[Trenix]

Fair enough, updated a bit more. Would be nice to get a response for my suggested roles.