Is removing points in game a good idea?

[st.rage]

I was playing a game and some mods were there too. Three people were caught Skyping in game (Xersus, flapjack, and someone else, Lacata I think) and the Mod removed 1000 (or all if they had less) points from each of them.

Is this a really good idea? They're probably just going to reload an old bank file

[Slaol]

If they do that we will notice and their point ban will swift and mighty.

This was I that removed the points. The 3 were skypers.

[Squidypie]

The lord taketh, but how bout them giveths? Who was the Summer MVP?

[Slaol]

The lord taketh, but how bout them giveths? Who was the Summer MVP?

I'm very busy with RL and the FM, and seeing as how the reviewing of the replays takes hours for full accurate effect, I haven't found time yet to complete it.
"hurrdurr, you were on Sc2" This is like the second time I have played in almost 2 weeks. Only because Raptor was bugging me haha.
But yes, the lord Slaol will givith to the appropriate champion shortly.

[Squidypie]

Sorry sorry, no rush, I just saw the "judging will take place today" and figured it was already done but that for some reason the results weren't going to be posted.

[Raptorblaze]

I gave an entire game bonus points because they'd gamethrew just before and I had to force what would've otherwise been a guaranteed mafia win. (3 mafia, an sk and a mason leader, one of the mafia proceeds to lynch train the godfather to try and give the SK the win). Authorized the point removal because we kicked them the first time, explained why, and they did it AGAIN the very next game when they knew we were watching.

[st.rage]

as long as they get the punishment they deserve Im fine

[kyle1234513]

im not ok with this, its an alternate punishment that isnt posted anywhere on this website. the standard being point ban, wl, kv, and ban.

in my opinion it would only be deemed fair if the standard punishment was still implemented in addition to this alternate punishment, where this alternate punishment would only be added on because of the warning. (players guilty of rule breaking should still get the standard punishment)

[Slaol]

The standard punishment is still being followed through with.

[Mateo]

this is a bad idea

[Cryptonic]

I agree that it's bad. It is never specified ANYWHERE in the game rules that committing crimes will result in points being taken away. Saying one thing and doing another is never a good thing. If it's going to be done, clauses should be added to encompass things like removing points.

[Slaol]

I have actually already told Raptor we need to designate which ingame offenses will result in point deductions, kicks, stumpifying, etc. This will be publicized upon completion.

[Mateo]

It's one thing for a mod or admin to kick a cheater or gamethrower as it only affects that game. But the power to make long-term changes to someone's account completely bypasses due process.

[Mateo]

Also lol @ taking points from gamethrowers...

[Cryptonic]

Personally, I think the only time points should be taken away is if it's a confirmed point hacker. Then you can remove points until the point ban kicks in. Otherwise, isn't being on WL/KV/BL already punishment enough for the crimes?

Also, removing 1000 points seems really excessive.

[kyle1234513]

Personally, I think the only time points should be taken away is if it's a confirmed point hacker. Then you can remove points until the point ban kicks in. Otherwise, isn't being on WL/KV/BL already punishment enough for the crimes?

Also, removing 1000 points seems really excessive.

i had thought the specific punishment for rule breaking in a moderated room, or after being warned was just double the normal punishment.(i would rather see this than point deduction)

[ika]

Personally, I think the only time points should be taken away is if it's a confirmed point hacker. Then you can remove points until the point ban kicks in. Otherwise, isn't being on WL/KV/BL already punishment enough for the crimes?

Also, removing 1000 points seems really excessive.

I wasnt there for it but i am agreement with point deduction but somewhat against the exteme amount rap did, but i do want to requote what rap said


I gave an entire game bonus points because they'd gamethrew just before and I had to force what would've otherwise been a guaranteed mafia win. (3 mafia, an sk and a mason leader, one of the mafia proceeds to lynch train the godfather to try and give the SK the win). Authorized the point removal because we kicked them the first time, explained why, and they did it AGAIN the very next game when they knew we were watching.

so it sounds liek they were being repeats which IMO makes the point take-away more justified in this case, also raport compenstated the players that had the game ruined by giving them point (im guessing like 10-15ish) i remmeber raptor would take pplz point away for afking as well but be much more leanent about it.

overall i think once slaol/rap/smods figure out what the takeaway will be it will be more clear-cut

@kyle, they do things like that already. raport stated they did this again

[Blazer]

5 words.

"In-game points are like rep"

Think about that ^.^

[Mateo]

Again, the problem here is the lack of due process, regardless of the occasion. Admins and mods are required to submit a report and replay and have it reviewed by a third party. This completely subverts that system.

[kyle1234513]

I wasnt there for it but i am agreement with point deduction but somewhat against the exteme amount rap did, but i do want to requote what rap said



so it sounds liek they were being repeats which IMO makes the point take-away more justified in this case, also raport compenstated the players that had the game ruined by giving them point (im guessing like 10-15ish) i remmeber raptor would take pplz point away for afking as well but be much more leanent about it.

overall i think once slaol/rap/smods figure out what the takeaway will be it will be more clear-cut

@kyle, they do things like that already. raport stated they did this again

its supposed to be a standard system, do X, and Y happens to you in return. not, do X, and Y happens and i personally am adding something else to the punishment. it just has to be standard punishment, + mod warning = x2 punishment. not standard punishment, + custom punishment.

i still feel taking points away is completely meaningless, unless its enough to prevent prefer, blacklist, or custom name. otherwise its like nothing happened at all, it would be like taking 5000 points away from landstander, or any other player above 20k, would they even notice?

[Admiral]

I don't normally defend the moderation team but really they can (with few exceptions) do whatever the fuck they want. Whether or not that alienates the playerbase in the end is another thing.

[Raptorblaze]

Clarifications:
The amount of bonus points I gave out was 10 per player

The points being taken away was due to them having been previously warned that what they were doing was against the rules. Truthfully, I just told Slaol I authorized anything up to 1000 or their current point level, whichever was lower. I left the amount in his hands.

In case there is any questions about me forcing the mafia win after the first gamethrow, A mason leader and SK could not have defeated 3 mafia when the mafia had majority that day. Realistically, mafia should have lynched one of the two, and then the other one the next day. SK kills are totally irrelevant to that outcome.

Slaol reported the replays for us, and they underwent (or will undergo, I haven't checked them yet) reviews as normal. The point removal was an immediate punishment for not heeding the warning.

[kyle1234513]

Clarifications:
The amount of bonus points I gave out was 10 per player

The points being taken away was due to them having been previously warned that what they were doing was against the rules. Truthfully, I just told Slaol I authorized anything up to 1000 or their current point level, whichever was lower. I left the amount in his hands.

In case there is any questions about me forcing the mafia win after the first gamethrow, A mason leader and SK could not have defeated 3 mafia when the mafia had majority that day. Realistically, mafia should have lynched one of the two, and then the other one the next day. SK kills are totally irrelevant to that outcome.

Slaol reported the replays for us, and they underwent (or will undergo, I haven't checked them yet) reviews as normal. The point removal was an immediate punishment for not heeding the warning.

but you are missing our point, its either the current system works, and the point deduction has zero purpose, or the current system doesnt do enough, which is it?

[pat_power]

I think it's a bit of

I don't normally defend the moderation team but really they can (with few exceptions) do whatever the fuck they want. Whether or not that alienates the playerbase in the end is another thing.
and a bit of

the current system doesnt do enough

[Slaol]

but you are missing our point, its either the current system works, and the point deduction has zero purpose, or the current system doesnt do enough, which is it?

The point deduction is a part of the current system. Just less discussed.

[Raptorblaze]

Full disclosure, here's the guidelines we wrote back in June for the -points command. Any member of the Upper Council (myself, rev, oops, lix) can grant one time exceptions to these rules in extenuating circumstances, but this is all that the blues are allowed to do on their own.

When to give points

A valid point restoration request
Special events (in small amounts)
At the end of a game meant to test features/find bugs (in small amounts)


When to take points

Gamethrow/Blatant Skype Cheating/Lag cheating etc. (100 or less)
Confirmed Point Hacker who we've decided not to permanently point ban.


When to use -points to tempban someone
BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL WHEN DOING THIS

Attacking/Harassing staff members over several games
Obvious point hacking of any kind
Chronic Gamethrowing (i.e. when someone has several reports and is only awaiting an actual banlisting to be updated)
When a player is supposed to be banned, but their ban listing is not currently functioning properly.


@Kyle, you're confusing the timescales. In-game moderation's purpose is to limit immediate damage, the report system is to limit long term damage. This was an immediate action to make it clear there were serious consequences involved.

edit: Small amounts = one game's victory or less approximately.

[kyle1234513]

will the points taken then be restored after the punishment has been served?

[Raptorblaze]

will the points taken then be restored after the punishment has been served?

No, if you've been warned and you continue to blatantly offend infront of an admin I have no sympathy for you.

[Squidypie]

This is a bit extrajudicial, but I think I remember flapjack and Xerxes so let the tyrants tyrannize trialless targets till they try to tyrannize too-far. It's all good until they get it wrong.

[kyle1234513]

No, if you've been warned and you continue to blatantly offend infront of an admin I have no sympathy for you.

sympathy has nothing to do with whats fair. if the punishment is over, then the points should be restored. otherwise its like saying why not just leave everyone who makes it to ban list on the ban list. "you gamethrew, i have no sympathy for you, stay banned" what makes it special that he gamethrew in front of an admin vs all regular players.

and even if its just a warning that warranted the punishment, then repeat offenders who have made it off watchlist, kickvote, or banlist, down to regular player by time expiring, and then gamethrow or something, again shouldnt they get a "permanent" punishment because their first time served was a warning already?

[Raptorblaze]

sympathy has nothing to do with whats fair. if the punishment is over, then the points should be restored. otherwise its like saying why not just leave everyone who makes it to ban list on the ban list. "you gamethrew, i have no sympathy for you, stay banned" what makes it special that he gamethrew in front of an admin vs all regular players.

and even if its just a warning that warranted the punishment, then repeat offenders who have made it off watchlist, kickvote, or banlist, down to regular player by time expiring, and then gamethrow or something, again shouldnt they get a "permanent" punishment because their first time served was a warning already?

I'm not sure what your goal is, but all you're doing is making me realize I'd rather permanently list people at differing levels.

[kyle1234513]

I'm not sure what your goal is, but all you're doing is making me realize I'd rather permanently list people at differing levels.

/agree

my goal is that points shouldn't be messed with at all, the kick from the current game is enough. unless point hacking.

[ika]

/agree

my goal is that points shouldn't be messed with at all, the kick from the current game is enough. unless point hacking.

Points are points, changing them can show people that staff are serious about their job, kick can sometime equal the same outcome but at the same time if you just kick them over and over they will most likely just go into another game and do it again. Taking points away might knock some sense into the player not to do something like that.

[Raptorblaze]

/agree

my goal is that points shouldn't be messed with at all, the kick from the current game is enough. unless point hacking.

I guess the easiest way to analogize it for you is this:

When you commit a crime, you are sometimes fined in addition to serving time.
The government does not return your fine upon time being served.

If we catch you committing a crime midgame, you will be warned. If you continue you will be fined points.
Your points will not be returned upon conclusion of your full sentence.

[Mateo]

and it also shows people there is no point in playing the game because the points they work for can be taken away at the drop of a hat by a pissed-off admin.

[Mateo]

I guess the easiest way to analogize it for you is this:

When you commit a crime, you are sometimes fined in addition to serving time.
The government does not return your fine upon time being served.

If we catch you committing a crime midgame, you will be warned. If you continue you will be fined points.
Your points will not be returned upon conclusion of your full sentence.

Yea, you get fined as well as jail time AFTER A TRIAL.

[Thesis]

I gave an entire game bonus points because they'd gamethrew just before and I had to force what would've otherwise been a guaranteed mafia win. (3 mafia, an sk and a mason leader, one of the mafia proceeds to lynch train the godfather to try and give the SK the win). Authorized the point removal because we kicked them the first time, explained why, and they did it AGAIN the very next game when they knew we were watching.
I was in that game :D

[Squidypie]

If they win by cheating and have a history of it, then their points are at least partially ill-gotten gains.


By the way, if you keep track of who you give bonus points to on the forums somewhere, then we will be able to find point hackers very easily ( it seems every game there's some guy with upwards of 20 points per game average that achievements don't even come close to compensating for)

What do the best players average? Sometimes I see people with more than 60-80% wins.

[Raptorblaze]

If they win by cheating and have a history of it, then their points are at least partially ill-gotten gains.


By the way, if you keep track of who you give bonus points to on the forums somewhere, then we will be able to find point hackers very easily ( it seems every game there's some guy with upwards of 20 points per game average that achievements don't even come close to compensating for)

What do the best players average? Sometimes I see people with more than 60-80% wins.

We actually have a spreadsheet for it somewhere, but it's exceedingly rare for anyone to have been given more than maybe 100 points total.

[Raptorblaze]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuOg7NHn6hfndG1jbEF4aE9oZ09RaXU3M3NyWXdpa VE&usp=sharing

I advise copying that, as the link should be view only. It allows you to use their stats and their achievements to determine if they're likely hacked. It also has a field for any bonus points we're aware of them being awarded.

[Helz]

/agree

my goal is that points shouldn't be messed with at all, the kick from the current game is enough. unless point hacking.

Let consider that we have an issue with backed up player reports. What you are saying is that players that will be banned/watch listed/kick listed (when their report is handled) should have free reign in that lapse of time? I do not agree with this.

I feel that if you violate the rules you should be at the mercy of the developers and staff. Immediate action after 2 games in a row of confirmed cheating is grace.


If you feel like it needs to be addressed lets move for a Temporary Ban until the report can be handled in order to protect the players that follow the rules. Those players got off crazy easy.

[Slaol]

Why is this topic so active? lol. This is a less well known but long standing part of the process.
Flapjack was kicked, thus warned.
Lacari and Xersus witness the end game of the entire game flip by Raptorblaze, thus EVIDENTLY warned.
They went into the next game with us and did it again. lol

[AppleyNO]

I would like to point out that games are judged by anyone who has been given authorization to do so.

Admins have authorization to do so.

Admins decided that the game they were in had players that have been gamethrowing. They used -kick.

Admins played another game with these players, and found them to be again gamethowing. They used -points.

Admins have the ability to give punishments. The punishments are up to Admins. The report recommendations (they are recommendations) can be overwritten and changed by Admins.

We have a standard process of punishing players, but it was obvious -shout and -kick did not deter these players from gamethrowing again, so the Admins gave out a punishment.

The discussion shouldn't be about if the Admins had the power to do this, because they did.

[st.rage]

Why is this topic so active?

It's because im so popular

[st.rage]

Also I think taking 1000 points isn't really fair. If one person already had lets say 1000000 points, they could easily win it back in a roulette game. Why not take a percentage?

[Slaol]

lets say 1000000 points, they could easily win it back in a roulette game

No they couldnt

[Admiral]

Do I remember incorrectly that I could modify my bank to also include wins and losses?

[Raptorblaze]

Also I think taking 1000 points isn't really fair. If one person already had lets say 1000000 points, they could easily win it back in a roulette game. Why not take a percentage?

They couldn't because 1000000 points causes the map to ban said player.

[Mateo]

I would like to point out that games are judged by anyone who has been given authorization to do so.

Admins have authorization to do so.

Admins decided that the game they were in had players that have been gamethrowing. They used -kick.

Admins played another game with these players, and found them to be again gamethowing. They used -points.

Admins have the ability to give punishments. The punishments are up to Admins. The report recommendations (they are recommendations) can be overwritten and changed by Admins.

We have a standard process of punishing players, but it was obvious -shout and -kick did not deter these players from gamethrowing again, so the Admins gave out a punishment.

The discussion shouldn't be about if the Admins had the power to do this, because they did.

Again, THE PROBLEM is that a long-term punishment is being given out by someone who is personally affected by said behavior. That is BIAS. ALL staff reports HAVE to be processed by an independent third party because otherwise a single staff becomes judge, jury and executioner.

In addition, when in-game with someone, you don't have access to the tools that are available when watching reviews. There have been several cases when people were unjustly punished because an admin/mod was WRONG, kicking innocent people (even fred has done this, and YOU apples). But unlike kicking, this punishment affects more than just one game. What if one of you fucks up and takes points from an innocent person? Are we gonna have a new sub forum for point restores from staff mistakes? How long will they have to wait before they get their points back? Or are you gonna tell them tough shit?

How can you punish point hackers for not respecting the legitimacy of the bank file when you are guilty of the same thing? Like taking points for being afk, are you fucking serious? Who here has never joined a game of mafia then had someone knock on the door or have to go to the bathroom? So the choices are go afk and lose points, or leave the game and get reported for role quitting? Give me a fucking break.

[Raptorblaze]

Oi, the point Kyle and Matt are missing here is that we've never had any kind of trial based system. Reports are submitted to us and we look at them and make sure they are valid, there is no TRIAL and there never has been. Reporters do not argue for convictions, they only provide evidence which we then examine and we only allow people to defend themselves after the fact. The reason people cannot review their own reports is to ensure no single staff member can frame a person. All staff moderation actions are supposed to be reported, so all said actions would eventually be reviewed and if an error was made either apologized for or fixed depending on the situation.

We are moderators, not a court of law.

This is the internet, not America (or your nation of choice).

I'd like to point out that trial based systems are inherently flawed as well. We objectively review reports and decide if they violate set rules or not, while in a trial the end judgement is based solely on the ARGUMENTS presented, not the actual evidence and is inherently subjective. In many ways our system is superior in terms of fairness.

@Matt, on your point about pointhackers, they HACKED game files. We used programmed and known methods. There is a massive difference.

I also strongly discourage any moderation actions during games. It's really hard to fix a broken game. I kicked the gamethrower in order to maintain who was supposed to win.

[creedkingsx]

Doing to end this with mod abuse reports can be made. When that happens, we judge objectively.
Most of us hate each other, anyway.
CASE CLOSED, THE OUTLINE FOR IN GAME PUNISHMENTS HAS BEEN POSTED ABOVE, PM FOR ANY OTHER QUESTIONS.

Rap can re-open this later, if he wishes.