New Neutral Benign role - Suicidal

[kyle1234513]

edit - updated version

name- Martyr
alignment- neutral benign
invest message - arson/jester/Martyr
goal - die at night to mafia
abilities - none
options - can die at night to neutrals on/off default off
can die at night to town on/off default off




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name - suicidal
alignment - neutral benign
invest grouping - jester arson suicidal
win objective - die at night to the mafia (kidnapper counts)
if you die to neutral killer, vigi, jailor, or get lynched during the day, you lose.
abilities - none.
(should neutral killer and mafia target the same night then suicidal still wins)
(disguiser death also counts as a mafia kill)

pros - doesn't need to survive to win
cons - can be tricky to get the mafia to target you.

overall impact, i think it works better than jester because its not out to cause chaos and waste lynches. instead it functions to try and draw mafia attention towards yourself.

the theory behind this role is to try and make yourself seem important for the town, without seeming like doctor should be healing you.

(also name is a bit meh, feel free to suggest something better)

[Cryptonic]

what about games without Mafia?

[kyle1234513]

what about games without Mafia?

then its a powerless role and can not spawn, just like coroner without options, or a janitor.

[Cryptonic]

What does it add to the game?
Will it change the way people currently play other roles?
Why does the Mafia care if they kill it or not?
Why did you choose to specifically make it only if Mafia kills them?
Won't they just vote w/ Mafia 99% of the time in exchange for being killed before the end?

[kyle1234513]

What does it add to the game?
a different role that needs to think about what they say to achieve their goal.

Will it change the way people currently play other roles?
no or maybe a little, mafia will care, town not so much.

Why does the Mafia care if they kill it or not?
they don't know if hes suicidal or not, they just see him as helping the town and mafia feels better off without him. so its more harmful to mafia because they end up wasting a night.

Why did you choose to specifically make it only if Mafia kills them?
if its just die at night then all he has to do is do nothing and just wait for it to happen, if its just mafia then at least some creative wording is involved.

Won't they just vote w/ Mafia 99% of the time in exchange for being killed before the end?
this is a theory, however i believe its more beneficial to be pro town over claiming suicidal to the mafia.
if suicidal claims too early then he would be lynched or killed by the town. or ignored. and if its too late then NK or town has a high chance of already hitting the suicidal at night or figuring out who he is.
i believe that suicidal claiming late and siding with mafia is very situational because it would leave a lot of evil roles unfound where town lacks voting power.

[Squidypie]

I like the idea of someone who gets rewarded for being killed at night (i suggested survivor is too easy to play as is and should get rewarded for being shot)

Bullet-catcher? Martyr? Pariah? Victim? Grim? Wretched?

[Cryptonic]

I don't think he risks being lynched by revealing too early. Why would town waste a lynch on a non-anti-town player x.x

[Nick]

I like the idea of someone who gets rewarded for being killed at night

If benign neutral. This. Don't care who killed.

[kyle1234513]

I don't think he risks being lynched by revealing too early. Why would town waste a lynch on a non-anti-town player x.x

its the same scenario for town as executioner or a survivor. if the neut benign swings for mafia then it sucks for town, but it happens. could just as easily go pro town.

and if mafia want to kill the survivor at 3/1/1, and keep no lynching till the survivor dies, then its mafias choice to do that as well.

and some towns just hate any non town, and readily lynch non town on the spot.

[Squidypie]

What does it add to the game?
a different role that needs to think about what they say to achieve their goal.

Will it change the way people currently play other roles?
no or maybe a little, mafia will care, town not so much.

Why does the Mafia care if they kill it or not?
they don't know if hes suicidal or not, they just see him as helping the town and mafia feels better off without him. so its more harmful to mafia because they end up wasting a night.

Why did you choose to specifically make it only if Mafia kills them?
if its just die at night then all he has to do is do nothing and just wait for it to happen, if its just mafia then at least some creative wording is involved.

Won't they just vote w/ Mafia 99% of the time in exchange for being killed before the end?
this is a theory, however i believe its more beneficial to be pro town over claiming suicidal to the mafia.
if suicidal claims too early then he would be lynched or killed by the town. or ignored. and if its too late then NK or town has a high chance of already hitting the suicidal at night or figuring out who he is.
i believe that suicidal claiming late and siding with mafia is very situational because it would leave a lot of evil roles unfound where town lacks voting power.


I gotta believe that the vast majority of time he won't reveal himself to be what he is to maf. Rather he'll pretend at sheriff or bodyguard to get maf to shoot him, but if it needs to be maf that gets him he needs to wait until neut killing is dead, which may be extremely difficult. The only time he'll sincerely admit to his role (since town will frequently claim to be him) is in pms to a confirmed townie.

He a reverse-jester. Jester acts like maf to get town to lynch slightly favoring maf, he acts like a dangerous town to get killed favoring town.

[Azuriae]

I honestly like the idea behind this one. It'll force the neutral to try and act super pro-town.

Although there may be some flaws, I think this has potential.

[Cryptonic]

I honestly like the idea behind this one. It'll force the neutral to try and act super pro-town.

Although there may be some flaws, I think this has potential.

I agree.
Things I'd change:
1) cause a negative effect to happen to the kill (i.e die or roleblocked next night or blackmailed next day/ect)
2) wins regardless of who kills them. (obviously easiest if they get killed by scum)

[Gerik]

This would be a decent concept, but it is lacking in two areas.

1. It is not truly benign. All other benign roles can win with any faction and have the potential to screw with any faction (settings permitting). Jester's suicide can hit maf, town, cult, sk, etc. With the "target always town" setting off, exec can target any faction. Amnesiac can take a role from any faction. Survivor can survive with anyone. But this role would require the mafia to exist in the game to even be present, and then if it is in the game it needs the mafia to kill them. So it exists only to waste the mafia's night kill. It's like a neutral citizen without the vest. Pretty pointless. If it is truly going to be benign, it should have to die at night to any faction. Maybe even count conversions by the cult as "kills" and have it die when converted somehow.

2. In conjunction with the above: There is no penalty for killing it. So it seems like it would be very easy for it to announce its role and just trade its allegiance for the guarantee that it will be killed and get its win. What makes jester such a good role is that it makes people second guess the lynch. Not only does lynching a jester waste a lynch, but it also kills someone at random. It could kill someone from YOUR faction. Maybe even YOU. That could cause you to lose. So you have to weigh the possibilities. With this role, you just kill it and if you hit the suicidal guy, oh well, try again next time. That's no good. I propose a punishment of some kind. I've come up with two that I think would be fitting.


A- The modified jester punishment- kill one random member of the killer's faction. ex. If vigilante kills it, a random towny will die with it. If mafia kills it, a random mafia member will die. Neutral killers that kill it will die (though I guess you could also make it a random neutral killer so that a NK could attack the suicidal guy and hope it gets the arson killed, lol)

B- Direct trade. Suicidal guy's killer dies with it. Pretty self-explanatory. You could even give the role a night visit that doesn't do anything (ie. jester's annoy ability) to allow it to try and jump in the path of a veteran or mass murderer.

This way, it could change how people play other roles. Vigilantes might be less inclined to random shoot. Mafia/neutral killers can no longer kill indiscriminately. This also opens up the strategies of this role, and in turn, other roles. They could act pro-town hoping to be shot, or they could act scummy and try to lure a vigilante or jailor to them. Scum roles can use this as a defense when jailed. Town power roles can WIFOM this in order to discourage attacks by scum.

It obviously would not win if it uses the -suicide command or if it gets modkilled. Jester suicide is up for debate. On one hand, it would be hilarious if that happened, especially if exec targeted jester (triple benign win!) but it would then essentially make the role immune to jester, which kind of defeats the purpose of jester, so it probable shouldn't count. I guess it could be an option, though.

[Gerik]

For anyone in need of a TL;DR-


I agree.
Things I'd change:
1) cause a negative effect to happen to the kill (i.e die or roleblocked next night or blackmailed next day/ect)
2) wins regardless of who kills them. (obviously easiest if they get killed by scum)

[UltimaNecros]

He should be Guaranteed a win if the mafia kills him but his additional options should be
Wins if killed by neutral role at night
Wins if killed by town role at night

Also i think instead of taking out a target with him he should have the ability to autoreveal his killer to the entire town the next morning but only IF the killer met his win paramters (I.E. if killed by nuet win was on and his killer is revealed and killed by town is off then the town would know who to lynch , but if town death win was on and his killer is revealed then the mafia/nnuetral roles would know the threat if a townie killed him.) i think this would add some flavor to setups if this role was added. but i think the reveals killer in morning should be a setup option along with kills killer next night but kills killer/reveals killer shouldnt be allowed to both be active.

[Azuriae]

Also, change the name to Martyr. c:

[yzb25]

Assuming we go with Gerik's idea and the killer dies, that seems horrible if the killer kills him n1 and just dies. Bg / vet fear is bad enough. And it actually ends up favoring the town slightly because mafia and neutrals have to random kill someone every night, a vigi and jailor won't kill most nights.

Assuming we go with Ultima's idea and the killer is revealed, that would heavily favour town and allow for an auto confirm vigilante. It favours town which is what Gerik tried to avoid.

I think who has to kill him should be randomized. He should either have to get killed by a town, a mafia, or a neutral. This makes more sense as who a benign ends up siding with is generally random and subjective, not a pre-determined core mechanic of the role itself (apart from when an exe always targets town). And on the first couple of nights, he is immune to attacks. Because getting a win based on pure luck seems a little dumb. I mean, at least the survivor has to do SOME typing to insta win the game.

Options:

1 alignment can kill him to get the win on / off (auto on)
2 alignments can kill him to get the win on / off
3 alignments can kill him to get the win on / off
Immune first 2 nights on / off (auto on)