Neutral Killing very broken right now?

[yzb25]

The mafia setups nowadays are extremely similar. They tend to go something like this: 3 mafias, a neutral killing, then two weaker neutrals then a balanced town with a variety of different roles as well as a guaranteed doctor and sheriff.

Generally, the random function in the game fits pretty well. All of the roles in a type of random will tend to do a similar function and will have a similar level of power. For example, all of town investigative will be relatively powerful (exc. sheriff) and designed at catching evils.

However, the neutral killing random (which nearly everyone uses in their saves) is extremely unbalanced. Seriously, look back at games in your replays. And you'll find that Arsonist will rarely actually kill anyone meanwhile the serial killer will snipe someone every night he's alive. Right now arsonist is extremely underpowered and Serial Killer is extremely over-powered (in terms of who will kill more people, not which is more easier to win as). What makes it worse is serial killer, arsonist or mm cannot be excluded from the randoms (apart from neutral evil). This means the neutral killing has a wide, wide range of power inside (in terms of how many towns will get killed NOT ARSONIST BEING UNDERPOWERED PLEASE NO MORE, NO MORE!!!).

Saves with more than 1 neutral killing random become extremely unstable and random due to this and almost impossible to balance. Even though many games town can come out on top of a serial killer + 3 maf game. Look back through your replays and count the number of games the evils (especially the mafia) managed to pull a win when the neutral killing was an arsonist .

(the arsonist gives a lot more time for town to investigate and find mafia because he is not an insta kill - he will kill all the town on n5 AS OPPOSED TO: killing them one by one and reducing the amount of visits / help the town can provide because it dies earlier. The serial killer helps other evils when he kills a town because he stops them protecting / investigating. However the arsonist does not benefit the other evils when he's the last evil alive when there's 4/5 players remaining and he kills 3 or 4 to secure a tie-win.)

But what is so wrong with this? Well, basically the main function of adding a neutral killing into a save is to make life harder for the town alignment specifically. Think about it, 4 maf would make it too hard for town so if a save looks to easy people will say "town has it too easy, add another neutral killing". The neutral evils in general are there to make life harder for the town and in the modern save there is almost always 1 neutral killing. Because arsonists kill much less people at a much slower rate, often whether the neutral killing is a serial killer or an arsonist will break the game.

Balance of individual roles doesn't really matter because that can be fixed in a setup. However when the setup randoms have roles of such varying ability e.g. an arsonist who does far less damage to the town than serial killer.

There have been counter-arguments of people saying there are alternatives to using the neutral killing random. For example using more neutral evils, guaranteeing there is a serial killer / arsonist. However, this doesn't change the fact 90% of saves use the broken random neutral killing. Sitting here and saying "well the save could be fixed if hosts put the effort in" will not make hosts put the effort in! Neutral killings have been commonly used for months now, what makes you think they'll stop now?

So this is why you, developers of mafia, need to do something about the neutral killing random. You ultimately are the only ones who can physically change the neutral killing random to make it balanced or change the neutral killings themselves so you can keep the neutral killing random the same.

[Slaol]

Generally, in each random set, you get an array of roles. Take Investigative for example.
You have Sheriff- his minimum for information is pretty high, as his answers are very finite. However he does not have as high of a maximum as he learns no information for checking Town.
You have Investigator- his minimum is a bit lower, since scum is capable of claiming roles in the pairings and possibly dodging a lynch. However he learns more information upon checking a Town member than Sheriff.
You have Detective- his minimum is lower still than Investigator, since the claims scum can make become even larger, and the Detective has to match movement with feedback. However, he learns information about Town and scum, and can easily spot certain roles. Kills, Blackmails, Witching, etc.
Then you have Lookout- his minimum is the lowest by far, since he could spend the entire game NOT watching the right players, and can not aggressively go at his leads. However, in any given night he could find multiple scums.

It is not intended for all roles to have exactly the same impact, but for roles in random classes to represent a sort of scenario of 'High minimum/low maximum or Low minimum/high maximum'.

In Neutral Killing you have Serial Killer, Arsonist, and Mass Murderer.
Serial Killer is clearly the base- he generally nets a single kill per night consistently, and is in easy control of his power.

Arsonist is the middle- he generally nets just under a kill per night (if he could ignite), and his control is high if he can predict who will survive. This weakens the Arsonist, but allows him to survive longer as his options to hide behind, in the roles list, remain open. Also, the norm of having the alert not be on gives him Witch, Cult, and possibly other options to hide behind. Lower minimum, higher maximum.

Mass Murderer is the pinnacle of low minimum, high maximum. He could spend the entire game not being able to kill because of poor WIFOM, or could manage up a 5 KPN game depending on settings. He simply gives away the guarantee for the possible.

I generally am not a fan of Mass Murderer, and it took me about 11-12 months to actually appreciate it, but the random slot is generally balanced. It just needs the right minds behind Arsonist and Mass Murderer as they are harder to play. Mastering Arsonist or Mass Murderer is one of the best things a person could do for their Mafia experience.

[Fubby]

Arson should have an immune to detection option Imo. When arson is in game I basically assume town will win.

[powerofdeath]

I win as arson almost all the time, if I ever flip arson lol

Have sheriff detect arson off

[maccabbe]

My main problem with arsonist is that his low/high averages too low because he quite simply kills less players on average compared to sk and mm. This seems due to 3 reasons:
1. The first night is "wasted" (douse vs attack)
2. Every time they decide to attack a player (burn) they are losing an attack (douse)
3. Some of arsonist's douses will die

Why not have arsonist be allowed them to burn (previously doused) and douse (new players) at the same time? Arsonist could then save up his douses and be in the same situation he is now but if he decides to burn every night he can, he won't attack <1/2 of what the sk does. Arsonist would still be slower than sk to react to accusations and can't kill n1 so this would raise his low. Considering MM kill 5+ players in one night often compared to arsonists (mm has a higher high) AND arsonists only kill 1 big group or 2 small groups while that mm can go on to kill (mm has a higher low) at least consider making this an option.

If not, at least let him douse 2 players n1.

[Slaol]

The situation for Arsonist that makes him superior is a defensive situation.
99/100 times Arsonist will not alert if he douses someone. This allows Arsonist a place to hide.
Further defense is that, the Arsonist.. keeps people alive. What this does is allow the Roles List to keep possibilities open, where as the Serial Killer and Mass Murderer will slowly remove their places to hide.
Arsonist is the defensive, secretive, Neutral Killing role. This then allowing for "#OMGTHEREWASANARSONISTMVPMVPMVPWOWWOWWOW" when there is an, out of nowhere, ignite from he Arsonist.

I have no issue with Arson being given immunity to Sheriff like he gets in a few saves (I know Cryptonic uses this one), but the point for Arsonist is that he sacrifices a slight ability to kill for significantly increased detection immunity compared to Serial Killer. This is a part of why Bus Driver was a horrible pairing, and Jester is now better. Bus Driver was a claim he could NOT make at all. Now Jester is a decent defense. So, now, Arsonist can even be directly checked by an Investigator and potentially escape. Also- Arsonist clearly has the 'pierce invulnerability' and 'pierce healing' additions that buff it a bit.

Arsonists minimum is lower as he could do little to nothing, but his maximum is higher because he (theoretically) has an easier time hiding. It just so happens that most Towns are WAY overpowered, and there are too many weapons against him. Please check this thread http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showthread.php/20901-Steggies-s-Mafia-Stats to show that Arsonist is only slightly behind Serial Killer in a series of 200 games. Mass Murderer.... people can't WIFOM.

[yzb25]

People are misunderstanding the point I'm trying to make. (it's probably my fault, honestly.) It's not that one killing is easier to win with in comparison to another, it's the effect the killing has on the other 14 players. As people got better at mafia, saves are given an extra neutral killing to kill the town quicker and give them less time to think of a potential answer. It may just be me, but has anyone else noticed how games generally have had less days where "you're not sure who could win" in comparison to old mafia, ages ago? Anyway, that's a bit of a tangent and I don't want to start a whole other debate.

Basically, games where Arsonist wins, is generally by waiting it out until the end, then killing 3 or 4 people to secure a tie with the final person remaining. Now, most games the neutral killing will lose right? Even though I have seen people win with it before, usually an arsonist won't douse a few then burn, douse a few then burn, and so on. He tends to only do it in two big bunches at most, because he will have to waste a night to unleash all the douses. This means that in most games with the arsonist most of the town will survive his douses because once he's discovered everyone goes "ZOMG ARSONIST LYNCH HIM BEFORE HE BURNS US ALL!!!", there's a much higher priority to kill an arso in comparison to other town.

However, a mass murderer and a serial killer will keep killing people up until the moment he's lynched.

Basically, arsonist does little to act as a way to give town less nights in comparison to the other neutral killings who will always at least kill a few before they die, unless he wins, that is (which doesn't happen often).

[Deantwo]

here is a fun idea for you

replace your Neutral Killing with a Neutral Evil... that way people won't be able to tell if there is an Arsonist early on...

D2: "no SK kill! possible Arsonist!"
D3: "still no MM kill! even more possible Arsonist!"
D4: "i am investigator and #5 is Arsonist/Jester!"
N4: Arsonist panic and ignite the 3 doused
D5: Arsonist is lynched by Town and Mafia

in my setup i have Neutral Evil instead of Neutral Killing... so everyone will have to wonder if it is really an Arsonist... as it could also be Cultist or Witch... ^^

i did at one point have Sheriff unable to detect Arsonist... but then everyone complained about my setup... >_>

[Slaol]

Yzb25- the arsonists you are playing with cant Mafia. That's really the short answer. I detailed the long answer explaining the difference in expected impact from the killing roles, but once we give the players roles we are no longer in charge. And, simply, people can't really play the game with intent or focus. Arsonist has 2 achievements- Disco Inferno, and Hoist by His Own Molotov. One rewards the Arsonist for pulling out the victory the way the role is meant to be played, one rewards him for suiciding. Which one do you see people with? People can't play the game, it's that simple.

[kyle1234513]

Yzb25- the arsonists you are playing with cant Mafia. That's really the short answer. I detailed the long answer explaining the difference in expected impact from the killing roles, but once we give the players roles we are no longer in charge. And, simply, people can't really play the game with intent or focus. Arsonist has 2 achievements- Disco Inferno, and Hoist by His Own Molotov. One rewards the Arsonist for pulling out the victory the way the role is meant to be played, one rewards him for suiciding. Which one do you see people with? People can't play the game, it's that simple.

its not that people cant play arson, its that the game ends on day 6.
sheriff calls him out on day 3.
invest calls out the silent jester
mafia death notes that # is immune at night
arson gets roleblocked on any night
jailor jails the arson, and arson either escapes and loses a night, or gets executed because the jailor doesn't believe you are the doctor (with there being a confirmed doc in the list, none in the graveyard, and 2 town protectives and 2 town randoms)
consig calls him out
mafia kills any of the 4 people that have been doused over 4 nights. (alternatively arson can luckily douse the mafia, but then he would only be helping the town)

theres just too many ways to completely ruin the arson.

an unnoticed arson in a long night game is deadly(10+ nights). but any other time arson is the weakest of the neutral killers because games are too short to make full use of the arson.

[cxx]

Arso is not meant to be played "dousing 5 or more people, then ignite". That's about the least efficient way to play arso.
Arso is kind of broken in pubs, because usually the killing patterns are non-logical and mafia players reveal themselves by their voting behaviour.

[yzb25]

Ugh, I feel like Deantwo is the only one who understands what I'm getting at here. It's not that Arsonist is hard to win as,

IT'S THAT IF A GAME HAS A SERIAL KILLER / MASS MURDERER, THE SK / MM ARE FAR MORE LIKELY TO KILL ALOT MORE TOWN THAN IF THERE WAS AN ARSONIST, YET THEY ARE ALL IN THE NEUTRAL KILLING SET DESPITE HAVING VERY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF ABILITY

(Sorry about caps)

Slaol, I'm going to address your argument directly. I see what you're getting at that some roles are more... neutral than others. Like, sheriff is going to give a high minimum of evidence but a low maximum, while lookout could give the town pointless information but at the same time catch many evils. You said the killings followed the same pattern. I disagree. Arsonist does not have a higher minimum than serial killer / mass murderer because there is a much higher chance he won't kill anyone in comparison to his other players. He also has a lower maximum than the serial killer because he has to ignite which gives him one less day to kill (douse) someone. But your pattern certainly follows for mass murderer / sk and the investigatives.

[Cryptonic]

Here are some tips to make your Arsonist stronger:

1) Make Arsonist be able to spawn from both Neutral Killing & Neutral Evil.
- This makes it so there can be a surprise Arson along side a SK, or there can be 2 Arsons.
2) Make Arsonist immune to Sheriff detection.
- Nothing's a bigger kick in the balls than dousing 1-3 people and then being found be a Sheriff. This causes Arsonist to be difficult to lynch, like a witch.

However, if you're turning off Sheriff detecting Arsonists, I recommend either removing Arsonist's immunity or making it so people know they are doused. I prefer the latter, because it prevents the Arsonist from getting randomly shot before he kills anyone.

This will allow the Arson to kill more before being found out.

Also, Arson is mathematically weaker than the other Neutral Killings.
SK KPN = 1
Arson KPN = n-m, where n is the number of nights and m is the number of times igniting (usually 1)
MM KPN = 0-14

[cxx]

So what? That applies to multiple pairings. And Neutral Killing is not even the worst.
The roles in a pairing are by no means equal in their power, it's about the purpose they serve. There is no Town Power Level 1. Or a Neutral Killing Level 2.

I also use the settings Cryptonic mentioned and recommend them.

[powerofdeath]

here is a fun idea for you

replace your Neutral Killing with a Neutral Evil... that way people won't be able to tell if there is an Arsonist early on...

D2: "no SK kill! possible Arsonist!"
D3: "still no MM kill! even more possible Arsonist!"
D4: "i am investigator and #5 is Arsonist/Jester!"
N4: Arsonist panic and ignite the 3 doused
D5: Arsonist is lynched by Town and Mafia

in my setup i have Neutral Evil instead of Neutral Killing... so everyone will have to wonder if it is really an Arsonist... as it could also be Cultist or Witch... ^^

i did at one point have Sheriff unable to detect Arsonist... but then everyone complained about my setup... >_>

My set up is 3 random any that exclude town and mafia. Town could easily think arson never exists.
At the end Arson can easily win

[RLVG]

Here are some tips to make your Arsonist stronger:

1) Make Arsonist be able to spawn from both Neutral Killing & Neutral Evil.
- This makes it so there can be a surprise Arson along side a SK, or there can be 2 Arsons.
2) Make Arsonist immune to Sheriff detection.
- Nothing's a bigger kick in the balls than dousing 1-3 people and then being found be a Sheriff. This causes Arsonist to be difficult to lynch, like a witch.

Or give the Arsonist the ability to target-kill a previously doused person rather then all of the doused victims.
This shows the Arsonist visiting the victim (exposed to Det / Look) but a tactical kill would help a lot.

[yzb25]

Ok, even if the goal of the random parings isn't to make all the roles in those parings balanced (and if they're not balanced add an option for them to be excluded e.g. citizen and mason are far weaker than sheriff and doctor so they can be excluded from town core) IT SHOULD BE! Because if the random pairings in a save are not of similar ability and similar purpose, the save becomes extremely unstable and who will win becomes more dependent on which team gets the best roles.

By fluke or by intention, in most random pairings all the roles are pretty similar in effect on the metagame, power and purpose. All but arsonist, that is.

I feel like people are literally just ignoring me straight up. I'm going to remove anything that so much suggests ease in the first post because I think it's misleading everyone. I'm going to say it like this:

In the mean average game of mafia, how many kills would an arsonist get, a sk get or a mm get, bearing in mind over half the time arsonist never gets to ignite a single dousing.

I EDITED MY FIRST POST PLEASE RE-READ IT AS IT MAY BE MORE CLEAR WHAT I'M TRYING TO GET AT NOW.

[cxx]

You just compare how many kills they can do to players without healing and immunity.
You are ignoring that you can't compare them on a scale that simplistic.

[yzb25]

You just compare how many kills they can do to players without healing and immunity.
You are ignoring that you can't compare them on a scale that simplistic.

YES I CAN! I JUST DID!!!!! BRAAAAGH *eats insides*. THAT IS THE POINT OF THIS WHOLE THREAD. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHETHER SK OR ARSO IS BETTER, IT'S NOT ABOUT WHETHER SK OR ARSO IS EASIER, IT'S NOT ABOUT HOW GOOD ARSO IS WHEN PLAYED AT A HIGH LEVEL, IT'S ABOUT HOW ARSONIST GETS A LOT LESS KILLS THAN SERIAL KILLER AND MASS MURDERER, EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE BOTH IN NEUTRAL KILLING, ONE OF THE MOST USED RANDOMS IN THE GAME, AND NEITHER CAN BE EXCLUDED!!!

NEITHER!!!

What this means is one kills the town alot more quickly than the other which means one is far more beneficial for evils and far more harsh to the town.

[cxx]

Sigh, how about you reduce town roles to plain kill capabilities next?

[yzb25]

I haven't got a problem with one role being more powerful than another. It's the responsibility of the host to balance the game, not the makers. It's how they're paired together in the same random with no way to change it. Like, the only thing the makers really need to balance, ever, is the save system and make it as flexible as possible. That way saves can be as stable and balanced as possible. Please listen to me CXX.

[maccabbe]

Has anyone actually mentioned a reason arsonist shouldn't be able to be excluded from random killing?

[Damus_Graves]

Arson is OP and UP the whole reason he is discussed about being UP is because of his pairing. It is a really bad pairing he gets into all the time. He has a potential 1 kpn average. He just takes them all in one night. MM is far far worse than Arson because of the pitfalls it is libel to hit, such as town coordinating themselves to avoid him.

Serial Killer is a perfect Neutral killing role. It needs no buff or debuff. Arson really just needs more thought and prediction, as well as MM, to be successful. Really the only problem with them is the playerbase as the roles themselves are fantastic. Arson has an unlimited number of douses to use. His only weakness is if his target gets killed early.

In all honesty I like the arson role it just takes more work than SK does. My biggest win, that got me my favorite badge and color, was an arson playing against the likes of DR, Yayap, and others. It just took more work than an SK would..It seems im repeating myself a lot but what I say is true

[yzb25]

Has anyone actually mentioned a reason arsonist shouldn't be able to be excluded from random killing?

I dunno maccabbe why don't you READ THE POSTS AND FIND OUT?

In response to Damus, again, like many others, you seem to have misunderstood me. Take this scenario:

A host is setting up a save with 3 mafia, 1 neutral benign and 11 town. One person says "the town is too powerful, add another neutral killing." One of the main purposes of adding the neutral killing in modern saves is to make it harder for the town. However, if a mass murderer or serial killer is picked, the town will find it alot easier than if an arsonist was picked. Because arsonist tends to get a lot less kpn in comparison to the serial killer, (due to more ways an arsonist can end up not having a kill in comparison to a sk) as well as the arsonist killing everyone later, which gives town more time to investigate and protect and find the other evils. Generally, a town would prefer to play against an arsonist as opposed to a serial killer / mm and, in fact, a lot more. This makes the neutral killing random arrangement imbalanced because depending on which neutral killing is picked town has very different chances of winning and, in fact, this is usually the main determiner as to whether the town wins or not.

Wouldn't you agree?

[Lazers]

Arsonist is an evil survivor with a sneaky ass kill

If you're patient and avoid investigation, it's easy as fuck to win as arso

[kyle1234513]

Arsonist is an evil survivor with a sneaky ass kill

If you're patient and avoid investigation, it's easy as fuck to win as arso


assuming it isn't 6 people left, you have only 1 doused, hopefully 1 maf is remaining, and town isn't asking a rolecall and since your last to claim doctor its bandwagon on you >.>

[Slaol]

The answer is this,
Arsonist is a different play style. He can not pick people off as the game goes, and if you tried to play Serial Killer as an Arsonist you will fail. However, if you wait 7 nights to start killing as Serial Killer and hope to have any chance of winning you are equally as foolish as you will not be able to replicate the KPN moving forward.

Arsonist is a different play style. The same people complaining that Arsonist isn't Serial Killer complain that Citizen isn't (insert any role here) and can't understand the play style, so they can't succeed with it.

Change your frame of reference, imagine that no other role existed. How would you win in a game that was just Arsonists against town? It happens here on the site in Arson themed games... Why can't it happen in Sc2?

[kyle1234513]

The answer is this,
Arsonist is a different play style. He can not pick people off as the game goes, and if you tried to play Serial Killer as an Arsonist you will fail. However, if you wait 7 nights to start killing as Serial Killer and hope to have any chance of winning you are equally as foolish as you will not be able to replicate the KPN moving forward.

Arsonist is a different play style. The same people complaining that Arsonist isn't Serial Killer complain that Citizen isn't (insert any role here) and can't understand the play style, so they can't succeed with it.

Change your frame of reference, imagine that no other role existed. How would you win in a game that was just Arsonists against town? It happens here on the site in Arson themed games... Why can't it happen in Sc2?

because saves that aren't 9/3/3 are instantly labled troll saves designed for host to win in..... or farm achievments.

I tried a 5mafia, 3sks, 2witch, 5neut benign save. it caused so many leave trains so fast.... (where sks aren't night immune, and secret ballot voting)

arson just needs more nights for it to be better suited for the common sc2mafia game.
more creative saves would also make it work better.
overall arson is fine where it is. and its up to the host to make it a fair chance for neutral killer to spawn arson, and for arson to have a good fighting chance to win if skillful.

[Apache]

it's a fact that mafia rarely wins in a game where the arsonist is the only neutral killing. i'd request options in the neutral killing random category to exclude any of the 3 too.
also arsonists are not hidden in most games, if there is no neutral kill the first 2 nights people know there is one. unless it's in the neutral evil slot and there's another neutral killing, then it's often surprising, if a sheriff comes up "hey dat guy is actually arsonist lol" or suddenly the whole town is dead
unfortunately my save has 2 any randoms with only neutral non-killing roles allowed. would be awesome if i could allow arso but not sk/mm here

[Kirdaiht]

If you believe the arsonist is imbalanced in favour of town, what is preventing you from replacing the random neutral killer by either a set serialkiller or a mass murderer?

[yzb25]

Am I speaking in a really confusing way, because nearly everyone still thinks I'm talking about arsonist winning rather than the effect on the town alignment if the neutral killing is a serial killer or an arsonist, or are you just having a discussion that should be held elsewhere on this thread for the hell of it? If this was about Arsonist being underpowered I would call this thread "arsonist up need buff now wth darkrevenant" and if I'm talking about how two roles are put in a random that everyone uses to make life harder for the town, however because arsonist has a much lower KPN than the serial killer, neutral killing random is imbalanced I call the thread "Neutral Killing is very underpowered right now".

Is the ragey nature of my comments mentally blocking out what I'm saying and forcing you to just assume something so you don't have to read through the painful, badly structured rage?

Apache and Kird seem like the only ones who understands me, Slaol still seems to think I'm complaining that Arsonist is underpowered and is categorizing me with the same group that call citizen underpowered, err, Kyle actually IS complaining that Arsonist is underpowered and I am now catergorizing HIM in the same group that call citizen underpowered, err, I'm going to guess Lazers read as much as he wrote.

Cool, cool. This thread's going far.

EDIT: Changed first post again. Re-read it if you can't be arsed to look through the arguments I've had so you can be up to date.

[kyle1234513]

Am I speaking in a really confusing way, because nearly everyone still thinks I'm talking about arsonist winning rather than the effect on the town alignment if the neutral killing is a serial killer or an arsonist, or are you just having a discussion that should be held elsewhere on this thread for the hell of it? If this was about Arsonist being underpowered I would call this thread "arsonist up need buff now wth darkrevenant" and if I'm talking about how two roles are put in a random that everyone uses to make life harder for the town, however because arsonist has a much lower KPN than the serial killer, neutral killing random is imbalanced I call the thread "Neutral Killing is very underpowered right now".

Is the ragey nature of my comments mentally blocking out what I'm saying and forcing you to just assume something so you don't have to read through the painful, badly structured rage?

Apache and Kird seem like the only ones who understands me, Slaol still seems to think I'm complaining that Arsonist is underpowered and is categorizing me with the same group that call citizen underpowered, err, Kyle actually IS complaining that Arsonist is underpowered and I am now catergorizing HIM in the same group that call citizen underpowered, err, I'm going to guess Lazers read as much as he wrote.

Cool, cool. This thread's going far.

EDIT: Changed first post again. Re-read it if you can't be arsed to look through the arguments I've had so you can be up to date.

so to sum up your complaint, you want all neutral killers to be created equal. and you want a neutral killer option to exclude MM, exclude SK, exclude arson.
neut killer can only be 3 options. any exclusions = just make a confirmed NK of your choice into your save instead of using NK.
and if you actually want to make a formal change to any of the roles you should make something up yourself and suggest it.

otherwise.... its up to you alone to make your save fair and balanced based on already existing options. sheriff unable to detect arson is more than enough balance in favor of arson to give arson a strong fighting chance in the game.

[maccabbe]

so to sum up your complaint, you want all neutral killers to be created equal. and you want a neutral killer option to exclude MM, exclude SK, exclude arson.
neut killer can only be 3 options. any exclusions = just make a confirmed NK of your choice into your save instead of using NK.
and if you actually want to make a formal change to any of the roles you should make something up yourself and suggest it.

otherwise.... its up to you alone to make your save fair and balanced based on already existing options. sheriff unable to detect arson is more than enough balance in favor of arson to give arson a strong fighting chance in the game.

If there are 3 roles and you can exclude one then there are still 2 roles the neutral could be. I would like to be able to setup a game with sk/mm and wd/cult/witch/arsonist instead of sk/mm/arsonist and wd/cult/witch so I don't have to switch between mass murderer and sk manually, It wouldn't even be a difficult option to add.

If I understand correctly yzb25's problem with arsonist isn't that he is harder to win than sk/mm but rather that his kpn is significantly smaller which results in town having more time to find mafia/cult/witch, making these roles (and not arsonist) harder to win with when the nk flips arsonist.

[Damus_Graves]

Arsom has a one kpn rating. His kills kist happen all at once.

[Cryptonic]

Arsom has a one kpn rating. His kills kist happen all at once.

minus a kill for every night he burns, so that's less than 1 :p

[Damus_Graves]

Yeah my math was off his KPN is .5 at best.

[yzb25]

so to sum up your complaint, you want all neutral killers to be created equal. and you want a neutral killer option to exclude MM, exclude SK, exclude arson.
neut killer can only be 3 options. any exclusions = just make a confirmed NK of your choice into your save instead of using NK.
and if you actually want to make a formal change to any of the roles you should make something up yourself and suggest it.

otherwise.... its up to you alone to make your save fair and balanced based on already existing options. sheriff unable to detect arson is more than enough balance in favor of arson to give arson a strong fighting chance in the game.

Yeah you guys have more or less figured out my long convoluted sentences, now. Erm I just want to note to you that I don't mind that the neutral killings have very unequal KPN but they are all in the neutral killing slot and cannot be excluded. This is what makes it very broken.

I did have suggestions previously but many people got confused that I was saying arsonist is underpowered so I removed them for now. But basically it was really functional and obvious things. e.g. an option is added to nerf serial killer so that he can never kill for 3 nights in a row, and it will tell him "he has to rest". Because serial killer will even kill role-blockers too so the only real obstacles stopping a serial killer are town protective.

Also even though it is possible to fix, unfortunately us sitting here and saying that won't stop the 90% of saves that use the neutral killing random, just like how us putting a giant banner saying "we won't change citizen" doesn't stop people moaning about a delayed citizen update :P.

[Lazers]

Yeah my math was off his KPN is .5 at best.

You mean 0.5 at least if nothing goes wrong

2 kills with 3 nights, 3 kills with 4 nights, etc. rapidly approaches a KPN of 1

[Cryptonic]

You mean 0.5 at least if nothing goes wrong

2 kills with 3 nights, 3 kills with 4 nights, etc. rapidly approaches a KPN of 1

Usually it's just n-1, because most Arsonists only burn once.

[kyle1234513]

i usually get 2 burns off as arson, burning every 3rd night. so I kill 4 people throughout the game. unless I get RB'd
it seems to work well, in which case I win the tie, or town will side with the arson before the mafia. because "arson is hard to win as, I want him to win because I can no longer win"

[yzb25]

OVERVIEW:::

NEUTRAL KILLING BROKEN BECAUSE:

Arsonist has a far lower KPN than serial killer and, some may say a bigger problem, because he burns late he gives the investigative time to investigative before they die. Neutral killings have a relatively low win-rate so there is a notable chance Arsonist can get lynched before he burns. This means town will find an Arsonist much easier to deal with than a serial killer. However, this isn't about the win rates. Arsonists have only a slightly smaller winrate than serial killer, or at least according to those stats that dude posted, whoever he is 0.0

I AM NOT COMPLAINING THAT ARSONIST IS UNDERPOWERED OR HE IS HARD TO WIN WITH.

The reason that this is so bad is, well, in the modern day the neutral killing random that is added to 90% of games is to make the game harder for the town. Neutral killings aren't necessarily interesting in the same way cult is because we see neutral killings all the time nowadays unlike cult. It is purely to make things harder for the town alignment. Adding a neutral killing increases the overall KPN of evils and results in more dead townies even quicker.

However, because arsonist kills far less slowly than the serial killer, depending on whether the neutral killing is an Arsonist or a Serial Killer will be a main determiner for how difficult the game is for the town because, as said earlier, the higher KPN of the serial killer makes games harder for town as opposed to if it was an arsonist.

Even though alternatives to using neutral killings have been supplied e.g. just adding a guaranteed neutral killing like arsonist or serial killer, doesn't change the fact 90% of saves still use the broken neutral killing.

That's why I think an option that stops the serial killer killing every night should be added and auto-on to make sure no matter what random killing spawns, the odds for the town are roughly equal for each and saves can be truly balanced.

Thanks for reading, any disagreements can be discussed over pm like slaol and I are currently doing.

P.S. please try to avoid posting any more on this page so people can see this and just debate with me. Awareness has been raised of my point of view, now. And if you have anything else you want to discuss related to this topic please start another thread.

P.S.S. I'm really surprised with the level of attention this thread has got. Thankyou everyone who posted, read or even just quickly viewed and skimmed. You've really helped this thread grow and get attention. Looking back it was extremely ungrateful of me to rage.

[Apache]

now can we add these options to the random categories i suggested? neutral evil can exclude sk, arso and mm aswell, why not neutral killing
this one has no options at all

[maccabbe]

Just remembered I started a similar thread a while ago, here was the best response I found:

This change would open a huge can of worms for everyone, like me, who find 1 of each random to not exactly match.
Vig/Jailor/Vet = high risk, high reward. BG = not.
Doctor/BG/Escort = stop attacks. BD = exchange who gets attacked
Sheriff/Invest/Detective = offensive. Lookout = reactant/defensive.
Sheriff/Doc/Citizen = original roles (Core). Mason = lol, not core at all.

They are better as is, not worrying about power or technical use.

[yzb25]

I agree with you in the sense that when you get really, really indepth you start to see imbalances in the other randoms too, but this is a huge imbalance that I think needs our attention. Because of the crucial role neutral killing plays in the metagame and because it's a stand-alone role that single handedly is expected to deter on the town, it is far more important than the imbalances in the other randoms. For the other randoms, if one town random is one thing due to how many towns there are it's very likely another town is another thing which balances everything allotogether. However if there is an arsonist, there is an arsonist. And if there's a serial killer, there's a serial killer.

[TheDarkestLight]

I am just going to input something...

Neutral Killers are supposed to have lower win-rates and be weaker, - at least thats how I think it should be- and they aren't supposed to be able to roflstomp the town. Imagine if you are a solo Godfather in the Mafia, how hard would that be? That's basically the same as a Neutral Killer. Neutral Killers are supposed to take intelligence to play.
SK: Forces you to keep the Scum -including yourself-/Town balance equal -until you make the winning kills however-, which I personally think should be at a 1.5/1 ratio, so having 3 town and 2 scum. If the town know who you are however, you need it to be at a 1/1 ratio, so lets say 3 town and 2 Mafia, no single group can lynch you, and you could possibly convince the town to lynch the mafia instead of you.
Arsonist: Don't Herp de derp lets douse the guy who's gonna get killed. If you ever read my guide to MM, do the opposite of what that says, where as MM goes for the high priority people, this guy needs to take the lower ones. So avoid colored names, the players 1, 5-10, and 15, and people with obnoxious names that will likely get them killed. The exception to this is someone who has protective roles on them and seems unkillable.
Mass Murderer: My Favorite role in the game, and the role I play best as. As I said with the Arsonist, your priority is the opposite of the Arsonist's apart from the targets getting healed, whom you should pay a friendly visit to because it's highly likely that if they are getting healed they are a PR, so BG won't be a problem.

[Cryptonic]

I am just going to input something...

Neutral Killers are supposed to have lower win-rates and be weaker, - at least thats how I think it should be- and they aren't supposed to be able to roflstomp the town.

Yea, that's why they have 40-45 pts for a win.

[cookies4you]

There should be an "Ignite upon Death" option for Arsonist.

BURN EVERYONE WHEN YOU DIE.

[kyle1234513]

There should be an "Ignite upon Death" option for Arsonist.

BURN EVERYONE WHEN YOU DIE.

as awesome as that is, it gives arson way too much power. and if arson dies he cant win making it useless..... but would totally be awesome.

[yzb25]

Muh people are starting to go off topic. This thread is not for this kinda thing. I'm not sure if TheDarkestLight is proposing a counter-argument or if he's just putting random input. If he is putting random input I ask that you please take other conversations to do with neutral killing elsewhere, as opposed to conversations about Serial Killer having a higher KPN than Arsonist which results in games with Serial Killer being harder for the town. If you are inputting I'd like to note that this thread is not about how hard it is for the neutral killing to win but rather the effect adding a neutral killing random to a save has on the town alignment.

cookies4you actually came up with a pretty decent idea. Because that will make up for the problem that if Arsonist is lynched his douses will be meaningless in terms of deterring on town. Maybe that could be a toggle-able option that the night he dies / the night after the day he dies his burns will go off so Arsonist is actually a scary character, for the town.

[Lazers]

shut up stop

arsonist is fine, it has its surprise niche

SK is fine, it has its consistent niche

MM is fine, it has its burst KPN niche

MM usually has the same KPN as an arso anyway, if anything you're trying to say that SKs are OP which is so fucking retarded you'd make my testicles look intelligent

[TheDarkestLight]

Muh people are starting to go off topic. This thread is not for this kinda thing. I'm not sure if TheDarkestLight is proposing a counter-argument or if he's just putting random input. If he is putting random input I ask that you please take other conversations to do with neutral killing elsewhere, as opposed to conversations about Serial Killer having a higher KPN than Arsonist which results in games with Serial Killer being harder for the town. If you are inputting I'd like to note that this thread is not about how hard it is for the neutral killing to win but rather the effect adding a neutral killing random to a save has on the town alignment.

cookies4you actually came up with a pretty decent idea. Because that will make up for the problem that if Arsonist is lynched his douses will be meaningless in terms of deterring on town. Maybe that could be a toggle-able option that the night he dies / the night after the day he dies his burns will go off so Arsonist is actually a scary character, for the town.

It was a counter argument, also it was to give slight insight as to what you're supposed to do because some people complain about how things are weak when they play it wrong.

Also the Arsonist thing would be useless, and it appears that it will be a kind of troll option. It does not help the Arsonist whatsoever. Does the random guilty voter dies for Jester change anything? Yes, it makes the town not want to lynch him. If the Arsonist had this option on, he could just claim arson and say, "Oh I'm Arson and you can't lynch me or else all my doused targets will die, so instead you have to let me finish dousing the rest of you so you can die anyway."

There is absolutely no problem with Neutral Killers right now.

[Damus_Graves]

Don't make your arguments attacks. There are better ways to get your point across.

:|

[TheDarkestLight]

:|

I apologize sir. I will attempt to refrain myself from doing such again.

[Deantwo]

You guys are misunderstanding the subject of this thread again.

The problem (as for as I understand), is about the RANDOM CATEGORY Neutral Killing (http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Neutral_Killing) and not the roles in it.

Just wanted to make this clear.

It is right now possible to find out what role came out of this random category pretty much from day 2 or 3.
I guess this could be solved by the host if he simply use Neutral Evil instead, but yeah.

[Kirdaiht]

You know, this entire problem can be avoided by taking balance in account when you build your save. Don't mash a bunch of randoms together and expect it to work, but try to work out the possibilities.
If you find that your save will be too easy on the town if the neutral-killer rolls an arsonist, don't use neutral killing in your save. Try a confirmed serial-killer or a mass murderer instead.
There is really nothing wrong with the arsonist as it is, and any change that would make the impact of an arsonist equal to the serial-killer would most likely result in over-powering the arsonist or under-powering the serialkiller.

[Lazers]

You guys are misunderstanding the subject of this thread again.

The problem (as for as I understand), is about the RANDOM CATEGORY Neutral Killing (http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/index.php?title=Neutral_Killing) and not the roles in it.

Just wanted to make this clear.

It is right now possible to find out what role came out of this random category pretty much from day 2 or 3.
I guess this could be solved by the host if he simply use Neutral Evil instead, but yeah.

Killing roles are obvious for a reason. Because they can, uh, kill. Other neutrals don't have that ability, so they rely on stealth instead. How is this an issue? That isn't even considering that other killing slots function basically the same way

[yzb25]

Muh, I was scared this would happen xD. The thread has grown so ridiculously huge that people aren't even bothering to read it and are reading the last couple of posts, so the same counter arguments are coming up again -_-.

This thread relies on one simply logical idea: PEOPLE DYING AT A SLOWER RATE = MORE TIME FOR TOWN TO WORK OUT WHO IS EVIL WHICH MEANS = MORE LIKELY WIN FOR TOWN. If one NK kills the town faster than another then he would make the game harder for the town, generally.

NOTE: Deantwo was kinda close but uh, what this thread is about is the fact than in the neutral killing random you get Arsonist, Serial Killer and MM. The main reason they're added to saves nowadays is to make it harder for the town. Let's face it, we see NKs every game, and they are rarely incorporated in an interesting way, as opposed to the cult.

The problem is with this is that they deter on the town to different levels. Arsonist has a much lower KPN than a Serial Killer because his douse targets could die, he needs a night to set his burns off and if he gets lynched all his hard work is for nothing. On the other hand SK is a consistent (kills rbers anyway) fighter that even if he's lynched d5 still managed to contribute a decent 3 or 4 kills to the game and deter on town.

Now, there are solutions to this. For example, SIMPLY NOT USING NEUTRAL KILLING RANDOM AND USING MORE NEUTRAL EVILS/BENIGNS INSTEAD XD. But the problem is that even if we sit here and say how things should be, it doesn't change things for everyone else. 90% of mafia saves are standard 9-3-3s or slight variations and the key feature of the 9-3-3 is there are always 3 maf and THERE IS ALWAYS A NK RANDOM TO DETER ON TOWN.

Now, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ARSONIST BEING HARDER TO WIN WITH, OR SERIAL KILLER BEING EASIER TO WIN WITH. This thread is about PURELY what I just said. Anything else can be discussed elsewhere.

The best proposed solution to make SK have the same KPN as the other NKs I've seen is making it so that the SK has some sort of limit on his consistency e.g. every third time he tries to kill he must rest instead or something.

P.S. Lazers, if you're not going to listen and just throw accusations at people, you may as well not bother even debating. I will never be able to pull you to my side with that attitude. So you may as well leave or directly address my debate.

P.S.S. Yeah TheDarkestLight, Arsonist killing doused at night probably wouldn't resolve the problem well. Arsonist is a very fragile role and making even small changes can screw everything up. But I still feel like you're not getting what I mean?

[Damus_Graves]

Your problem is that Arson doesnt kill as consistently as SK but then you say thats not the problem. Then you say that is the problem. I believe that this thread has run its course. If you'd like me to reopen it for continued discussion please PM me with a clearly stated discussion topic as well as the reason for your desire to reopen it.