Improving Forum Mafia

[FalseTruth]

Vote in the poll. This is regarding any future Forum Mafia games hosted by any Moderators.

-If we include suggestion forum roles, we will have to modify them so that they fit in a forum setting.

-If we do IRC chats, there will be one for each faction to talk in. I'm not sure how we can restrict day/night. Maybe we won't to encourage collaboration.

-If we create anonymous names for everyone, they will probably be themed after whatever story the FM is based upon.

-If we have 25 players or more we can either split the game or cap at 35. Vote in poll to decide which you like better.

Feel free to suggest other stuff below.

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Might suck for jailor, but I'd have to say it's somewhat mandatory with the name changes.

Also can we split up the game if it's fucking HUGE? It really sucks waking up to thirty pages and 80 more when you get back.

[FalseTruth]

Might suck for jailor, but I'd have to say it's somewhat mandatory with the name changes.

Also can we split up the game if it's fucking HUGE? It really sucks waking up to thirty pages and 80 more when you get back.

Everyone has an extra vote, you can vote for that now. Also, if the game is more than 35 we are 100% going to split or cap it. You will have to remove vote to vote again.

[Yayap]

I know of an exploit that moderators(I don't have that) can use to determine who the jailor is. As well as the real names behind anonymous profiles. So If you plan on having a jailor or anonymous profiles, I highly recommend not having the mafia game on these forums.

Hint: Procyon used the exploit to find the German SK.

[FalseTruth]

I know of an exploit that moderators(I don't have that) can use to determine who the jailor is. As well as the real names behind anonymous profiles. So If you plan on having a jailor or anonymous profiles, I highly recommend not having the mafia game on these forums.

Hint: Procyon used the exploit to find the German SK.

People can cheat in may ways regardless of where we play the game. If we play on a different site, people can still send PMs or talk on Skype. Playing on another forum would also force everyone on this site to move to another AND we would lose views/hits that should be going to Rev for making this all possible (it generates ad revenue). Dark.Rev essentially has the final say on who becomes a moderator and if those people(including myself) choose to abuse that, there is little we can do to prevent it.

[CaressMeTenderly]

Well, it's obvious people want anonymity, at the very least. I don't know if moving it to a different forums is necessary and yeah Rev loses hits.

[NorthStar]

We want an anonymous game, but keep it on this forum. Make sure mods don't cheat either, you're role models to the community after all. =D

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Can't vote now, already did earlier.

[FalseTruth]

Can't vote now, already did earlier.

Remove your vote.

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Never noticed that button. Not even back on the forums before we switched back to this.

[philie]

I'm really torn apart.
Firstly i think anonymity wont add anything new to the table - people will figure each other out anyway.
It will however make 1st night kills more random.
Other than that i enjoy seeing old faces in new environment and want to keep the name meta a bit.

Cap it to 35. I'm pretty sure some people don't wanna play again, and narks should just sit out a game because he's been trolling 2 times in a row.
It is more entertaining with loads of people.

Irc is a great idea but i like the slow pace of forums, plus we're still in diff timezones and cant keep the pc on for the messages to always stay. PM should be limited to 2 a day however and go through the mods.

Add roles, but keep it classic. Cult is fun because he is a common enemy for town mafia and neutrals. Mason is fun and needed to counter cult. To support mason you would need a large amount of cit.
Detective/arsonist/escort from sc2 are great and fairly balanced roles.

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Replace citizens to Recrutis (on night kill by mafia, are recruited) cult, mason leader (can recruit town power roles).

We used to do Recruit-town mafia on WC3.

it was insane.

[Auckmid]

I still think that we should have a game where we only have limited information about the set-up.

[CaressMeTenderly]

Random/closed set ups heavily deteriorates the logic aspect of the game.

[Auckmid]

Random/closed set ups heavily deteriorates the logic aspect of the game.

Open set-ups in a Forum Mafia game run much more smoothly if there were plenty of Town roles to fake. However, in the previous 3 Forum Mafia's, there were too many unique roles so that Scum couldn't hide for long.

[Auckmid]

I'm not sure how we can restrict day/night.
Simple. All you say is "I am God. If you decide to comunicate with your fellow Mafia's during the day, I shall kill you with me thumb.

[Elixir]

We only really need 1 set of 35ish Anon accounts.

We can just redistribute them each game rather than making a new set every time.

[Yayap]

We only really need 1 set of 35ish Anon accounts.

We can just redistribute them each game rather than making a new set every time.


As long as the original names accounts don't have access to viewing the game, the other moderators shouldn't be able to compare IP addresses. Should work.

And yes, you can easily change the passwords to the accounts when setting up a new game as an admin. Use to do that all the time on a diff forum.

[Elixir]

Should we drop it back to 3 mafia a side? Or is 4 balanced in the bigger games.

[FalseTruth]

Should we drop it back to 3 mafia a side? Or is 4 balanced in the bigger games.

I suggest 1 mafia team with 6 members.

[monster]

My suggestions:

- Cap the game at 40, but introduce mod-kill rules - 2 mandatory posts per day, no heavy trolling, etc.

- 2 mafia clans with four people - each mafia clan has KPN = members/2, rounding up, addtionally buffed with some nice power roles. Alternatively we can have a single mafia clan with 6-7-8 people.

- no SK, in these setups the SK can't win alone, a SK can only win as part of a cult

- possibility of jester, executioner, amnesiac, witch, but not specified in the setup to add uncertainty, you have 4-5 neutral slots, and that is all the info players get.

- citizen to town power role ratio of 2:1 - this is to reduce the roleclaiming problem, you can alternatively just introduce some random town slots - make it a semi-closed setup.

The end result will be something like:
40 players - 28 town 8 mafia 4 unknown neutral - at least 18 people are citizens(sigh, I know how this community feels about citizens)
4 expected KPN - 1 more than the current game and also more coordinated

[FalseTruth]

40 is not going to happen. People are already complaining about how they cant keep track of all these people during the day. I've already talked to Elixir about this and the farthest we're willing to go is 35.

The 2 mafia clans do not seem to be working particularly well, and I think we need a change from this. We should definitely try out a buffed up single mafia team. More collaboration, more schemes, more drama, more fun.

I agree with no SK

Random Neuts sound good, although I feel like a witch should be specified. Witch had/is having a HUGE role in how this game is currently playing out. You have no idea. It's really great to watch.

I disagree with the citizens. I think we should add random town roles, get rid of masons/cult, and try a different experience more similar to SC2 mafia. We can also add roles from the suggestions forum to add variety. This way evil roles can claim practically anything and townies would have to convuluted logic like Yayap does to figure shit out. Because it's easier for evil roles to hide in the setup, I think it would be ideal to have a lower KPN than the current game has.

[monster]

My suggestion about the citizens is not cos I like being citizen that much, but because I don't like games being solved by simple role claims - situations like "we kill the doubleclaims, we kill all who refuse to claim and gg". Now that I think about it - having some random town slots is definitely the best way to solve this, plus it will give a sc2mafia feel to the game. Obviously there should still be citizens but in more moderate numbers. I mean having a town of 20 power roles is kinda OP by default.

35 people with a 6-mafia clan and 4-5 neutrals sounds like a fair distribution of power. But KPN = members/2 should stay. If you lower it, the town will feel like they don't need to lynch the first 4-5 days.

Btw, I really want to see a daylight vigilante in the game - it is just so funny as a concept.

Also when Zack the witch dies you should reveal all his actions, you made me very curious. :)

[Elixir]

My suggestion about the citizens is not cos I like being citizen that much, but because I don't like games being solved by simple role claims - situations like "we kill the doubleclaims, we kill all who refuse to claim and gg". Now that I think about it - having some random town slots is definitely the best way to solve this, plus it will give a sc2mafia feel to the game. Obviously there should still be citizens but in more moderate numbers. I mean having a town of 20 power roles is kinda OP by default.

35 people with a 6-mafia clan and 4-5 neutrals sounds like a fair distribution of power. But KPN = members/2 should stay. If you lower it, the town will feel like they don't need to lynch the first 4-5 days.

Btw, I really want to see a daylight vigilante in the game - it is just so funny as a concept.

Also when Zack the witch dies you should reveal all his actions, you made me very curious. :)


Daylight Vig? So what he can just pm a mod, reveal, and shoot some fuck in the face during the day?





So crazy it just might work

[monster]

Yeah, the daylight vigi is a normal vigi that kills during the day instead of night. Excellent to murder the scum when they least expect it. :)

[Deolrin]

BTW, is it possible to create a separate account for Dark.Revenant, with user status, and have him play with us?

[AscendedOne]

I'd say 30 people max.... Cut out some of the trolls. Everything said should have a reason behind it, not just meaningless spamming.....

SK only really works in smaller games so ya agreed.....

I'd say a single mafia team would have made since for when we had cult, but if were gonna skip the cult, we should have two mafia teams. Town should be against multipul factions, not just a single mafia and neutrals in 30 player games.

[FalseTruth]

Also when Zack the witch dies you should reveal all his actions, you made me very curious. :)

Okay, don't get your hopes up, its not THAT crazy, but he did have a significant impact. He is about to do a LOT more tonight.

You will know everyone's night actions as soon as the game ends--its all in an excel spreadsheet.

[FalseTruth]

BTW, is it possible to create a separate account for Dark.Revenant, with user status, and have him play with us?

Yes, but as soon as he logs on to his former account with admin privileges, he would immediately see all the chats instantly. Also, he is extremely busy with other stuff, I don't know if he can even make the time commitment.

[Elixir]

Also when Zack the witch dies you should reveal all his actions, you made me very curious. :)

Okay, don't get your hopes up, its not THAT crazy, but he did have a significant impact. He is about to do a LOT more tonight.

You will know everyone's night actions as soon as the game ends--its all in an excel spreadsheet.


Did my night 1 action make it to the spreadsheet?

It was amazing.

[FalseTruth]

Also when Zack the witch dies you should reveal all his actions, you made me very curious. :)

Okay, don't get your hopes up, its not THAT crazy, but he did have a significant impact. He is about to do a LOT more tonight.

You will know everyone's night actions as soon as the game ends--its all in an excel spreadsheet.


Did my night 1 action make it to the spreadsheet?

It was amazing.

Yes, it did.

[Raiden]

- Anonymous is mandatory. People seem not to realize that big names could also be wrong, and they end up to be trusted more than unknown players, regardless of their faction.

- NO CODES. Can't stress this enough.

- Higher cap at 28, lower cap at 20. Hopefully we'll have ~40 people for the next game(s). More than 30 people is fail, too many posts, too much time required.

- While i find it very fun to have multiple enemy factions, i might agree with the 1 buffed mafia clan idea.

- Cult. I like it, I don't find it overpowered just because they won the first forum mafia. Even in this game, without masons, they lost to a mayor. It's balanced and very fun in my eyes.

- SK. Required for KPN value. I agree it is too weak tho, it needs some backup. Winning with the witch may be a step further in that direction.

- Amnesiac. I liked the concept, should be used properly.

- Witch. See above, should win when town loses, regardless of who else is alive at that moment.

- Jester and executioner. Liked them.

- Citizens should be no more than 1:1 ratio within the town, and there must be some kind of recruiting faction. Every game there is at least one lurking citizen (mrzwach, ozymandias, sas), not counting the trolls.

- Randoms are fine, but i'd say no more than 2 random town and 1 random neut, picked from all of the available roles (yes even double sk).

[Elixir]

An Idea for the cult I had was to limit the cult leader to 2 recruits, but have him start with a Ritualist who can also save up to 2 people and cult-anize them assuming the Ritualist picks the right target. (for more info on Ritualist see goons post somewhere, but the people who get saved by a ritualist lose their role)

Cult cannot kill a target whom the Ritualist has picked.

This makes the Cult Leader have to make a conscious decision as to who to recruit, and the Ritualist has to predict who the other killing roles are going to kill (includes sks, vigis, gunsmith guns, mafia... probably not jailor though) -- Person ritualized can claim doc'd if questioned by a town killer.

[Elixir]

Fucking no edit:

Also the doctor(s) will have a choice every night. They can go to heal, or go to prevent cult but not both. It's their choice.

If a Ritualist goes to someones house and a Doc goes to the same person to prevent cult, the Ritualist will save the life and the Doc will prevent Cult.
If the Doc goes to Save Life, however, he will be notified he saved the life, but the person will be culted.

[Deolrin]

Love the ritualist idea, but I don't believe it is really needed.
Cult is not OP, it is fine as it is.

[Raiden]

I started thinking of a few roles we could use in the next forum mafias. Not all of them will be fitting, not all of them will be fun, but i enjoy the brainstorming.

First attempt: http://www.thecouncilofmages.com/forum/index.php/topic,2171.0.html

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Let's add Cursed/Zombie, oh god.

[Yayap]

I've had a few ideas of my own, but I think I'll keep them to myself in the event I ever decide to host a game.

Hint: Mixing of current roles, must chose what action to take. Adding in a few roles from the Catalog of interesting roles.


My personal opinion, the Sheriff needs a buff. Sheriffs could only detect 50% of non town roles.
2 immune GFs, immune Cult leader, SK, jester and witch can't be detected by sheriff. + an amnesiac who may or may not be bad.

I was pretty much forced to ignore any of my investigation results.

Also starting at 3 KPN and needing 10 days of lynching bad guys made the town weak.
They could get all their lynching right and still loose because of the order they lynch.

[monster]

Also starting at 3 KPN and needing 10 days of lynching bad guys made the town weak.
They could get all their lynching right and still loose because of the order they lynch.


You have to consider the following: 1 townie trolled and got himself modkilled, jailor mislynched, gunsmiths guns killed two townies and a third gun is in the hands of a SK tonight. If those 4(5) people were alive right now the town would be celebrating an easy win. Instead they will wake up with a lost majority. Yes, you could make an argument that the town is slightly underpowered in this setup, but it is not like they are playing flawlessly and still losing.

[FalseTruth]

Also starting at 3 KPN and needing 10 days of lynching bad guys made the town weak.
They could get all their lynching right and still loose because of the order they lynch.


You have to consider the following: 1 townie trolled and got himself modkilled, jailor mislynched, gunsmiths guns killed two townies and a third gun is in the hands of a SK tonight. If those 4(5) people were alive right now the town would be celebrating an easy win. Instead they will wake up with a lost majority. Yes, you could make an argument that the town is slightly underpowered in this setup, but it is not like they are playing flawlessly and still losing.

Just a heads up, town is going to win this game.

[Yayap]

Just a heads up, town is going to win this game.


Maybe so, but the SK is sorta helping the town. And with the exception of Day 2, town has not myslynched anyone. I just wonder how many days it will take to clean up all the confirmed scum now and how many townies will be left standing at the end.

[monster]

Just a heads up, town is going to win this game.


Ohhh you troll, there is almost no chance town is winning this. They have to lynch SK- 2xRed -3xOrange to win - that is 6 days + they have to have 2 people left last day to be a majority over the witch. The only way town is winning is if the SK killed the 2 red mafia tonight, nothing else.

[FalseTruth]

Just a heads up, town is going to win this game.


Ohhh you troll, there is almost no chance town is winning this. They have to lynch SK- 2xRed -3xOrange to win - that is 6 days + they have to have 2 people left last day to be a majority over the witch. The only way town is winning is if the SK killed the 2 red mafia tonight, nothing else.

Actually, they were going to win if there was no witch in the game. But the witch decided to add 1KPN and fuck the town.

[Inca_Killa]

Disallow all Devinci bullshit.


Biggest letdown this game was the constant secret bullshit. Its not like whispering in sc2, its hard to explain but...meh, whatever. If its not disallowed i'm not playing the next one :(.

[Yayap]

Disallow all Devinci bullshit.


Biggest letdown this game was the constant secret bullshit. Its not like whispering in sc2, its hard to explain but...meh, whatever. If its not disallowed i'm not playing the next one :(.


Do you know how hard it would be to do that? I agree on disallowing codes that require extra programs to decode but some coded messages like Freds should be allowed since anyone and everyone can find them.

[Raiden]

Da Vinci is ok, as long as there are not 40 billion players like this game. You simply can't review all posts AND doublecheck them for Da Vinci.

[philie]

if the da vinci stays the advantage organized groups gain from it should be accounted for.

[Yayap]

You have to remember Philie that sending coded messages is always risky. I didn't send any to Claw to tell him I understood his plan simply because I didn't want anyone else to see the coded message and I had no way of sending him a cipher without cheating.

Everytime I find a coded message, I always ask myself who was it for? Some random townie, or an organized group.
If it's an organized group then I start piecing the dots together really really fast based on who I believe to have understood the coded message.

[MileS]

I thought the extreme emphasis on codes sucked some of the fun out of this game, plus I just don't get a lot of the logic of townies using coded messages when Mafia members can pick up on them and use them to their advantage.

The codes the Red Mafia was using should DEFINITELY be disallowed.

[chocopaw]

Next time when a mod comes too late for the ending of a day, make the next day begin at time of hammer vote +24h, not time of night thread created +24h. That was a bit frustrating, and the roles with night action could already pm anyway.

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

I find codes stupid and totally over powering, really. The town has no real way to establish a code with itself and to distinguish who is a fellow town member (other than mason). It pretty much effectively adds a DAY chat to the already-having NIGHT chat that mafias, masons, and cult use.

[Darth Sand]

I find codes stupid and totally over powering, really. The town has no real way to establish a code with itself and to distinguish who is a fellow town member (other than mason). It pretty much effectively adds a DAY chat to the already-having NIGHT chat that mafias, masons, and cult use.


Ye, that's basically it. The difference to sc2 pms is that you always know who sends them to whom and if you have a spy they can even be read fairly easily, but you never know which posts contain codes.
Using codes as a group that knows each other is in contrast quite easy, you can agree on special words so you know where to look for your code or even use stuff like oops put together (it's amazing that he came up with it but it was pure luck that Illidan used the one right program to discover it).
As a town member on the other hand there's no way to organize those codes and you never know who gets them and who doesn't.
And if you want to allow certain codes but others not... where to draw the line? For example, we used the program of oops for our codes but with a lot more work we could have en- and decoded the same thing without this program.

[Yayap]

And if you want to allow certain codes but others not... where to draw the line?

Where I would draw the line: If you can read the code without any external program. Pen and paper should be the only thing extra thing required.

A few Examples:
Can any of us read binary? no.

Can we read the first letter of everyword, phrase, paragraph? yes

Can any of us read numbers like what I did in FM2? yes: the most obvious coded message sent. Just takes time.

Can we read invisible ink? yes/no :only if you want to highlight everyones posts, but if you get caught then you are busted and everything you said gets out. And the amount of people quoting posts makes this type extremly risky. And with the ever the backgroung color changing between 2 shades, you can get busted using it very fast. Just look at Rumpel.

Can we read wingding font? no

Can we read symboles? Depends on type. Wingdings no. Hyroglifs... maybe but pictures weren't allowed

Can we read BSing reverse phychology? some of us can... I'd like to see someone try to prevent that.

[FalseTruth]

Actually, you can read binary if you know how.

[Raiden]

Can any of us read numbers like what I did in FM2? yes: the most obvious coded message sent. Just takes time.


Absolutely no. If you allow any number, you are also allowing binary or more complicated number based cyphers such as Procyon's RSA.



Can we read invisible ink?


You CAN read invisible ink, however, if you allow highlighting based codes, you are also allowing claw and oops code.



symbols and weird fonts


Again, no. If you allow picture based codes, i can encode anything into a symbol of my choice.

I don't even like positioning based codes, but they are actually the only kind that cannot be completely hidden in any way.

[Inca_Killa]

Actually, you can read binary if you know how.


Reading Binary is not that easy and takes a large amount of time, who in their right mind would do that? xD.

[Darth Sand]

Actually, you can read binary if you know how.


Reading Binary is not that easy and takes a large amount of time, who in their right mind would do that? xD.


Yeah, but it's possible, so if you want to have the rule "no codes where you need something else than your brain, pencil and paper" you technically can't exclude binary.

[Zack]

Allow hidden messages that every single player in the game has the ability to notice and tell what they mean. In other words, nothing extremely complicated like binary and no external programs.

PMs are probably not allowed because it would be extremely painful for the moderators to moderate... Like every time wait for a mod to pass the message after posting "player1 has pmed player2". Not very fun to do, so I get why PMs are off.

Now, a separate website or forum could be used for turned-on PMs, a site that everyone can view and you can send personal messages to players, but when you do it displays to everyone else that you sent a message and to who - exactly like the PMs on SC2 mafia work. Then in the role list we'l have random town with a possible Spy, but not a directly added spy. Spy will get a special account on that site and will be able to view all sent messages.

Is there a website/forum/program we can use for this? I have no idea, i'm just suggesting, heh

[Goonswarm]

We will post the spreadsheet at the end for all interested. Some funny shit went down.

[AscendedOne]

Spreadsheet including roles or what? Explain goonswarm....

[S.A.S.Cnl.Alpha]

Actions, AscendedOne.

FalseTruth hinted at the EPIC DOINGS AND TOTAL GAME MANIPULATION done by Zack. He said he'll give us a spreadsheet on what Zack did. We're going to be getting a spreadsheet after the game ends too; for every single action done and each night.


yes i know a semicolon doesn't fit
suck it

[Goonswarm]

Spreadsheet including roles or what? Explain goonswarm....


Excel spreadsheet with all players/roles/actions per night and reactions per night.