The new investigative pairings.

[Force20]

Most of them are fine. However, some of them I have criticisms on.

1. Lookout/Arsonist: Once again, the Arsonist is in a shit pairing. Everyone should know how hard it is to fake a Lookout (unless you're an Agent). As such, once the Arsonist is detected by the Investigator, it's game over for him.

2. Jester: Why is he paired with Mayor, Mason Leader, and GF? Everyone ALWAYS makes the GF detection immune, therefore, it's very very very easy to confirm a Jester once an investigator tracks them. Beforehand, investigators often mistook jesters for godfathers, but now, the only way a jester can get lynched is if he acts like a retard and never gets checked.

3. Survivor/Amnesiac: Once again, they are in a shit position because they can possibly be paired with GF and Framer. And besides, even if neither are detection immune, town will just kill them off anyways.

4. Framer: Now, they can roflstomp all over sheriffs, but if an investigator checks them, then they are screwed. This is because I don't believe Framers can frame players as framers.

5. Coroner: It literally has no pairing. No non-unique town role should be this easy to confirm.
__________________________________________________ _________________

Suggestions:
1. Pair Survivors and Amnesiacs seperately. They're already mostly anti-town as it is, make them loners again.

2. Bring back the cit/sin alignment. It always consists of Citizens and Jesters, but also includes roles that can be immune to detection.

3. Coroner should be paired with Arsonist because Coroners are much easier to fake. It also makes sense because both roles use oil, Coroner use it to determine deaths, and Arsonist uses it to burn people down.

4. Lookout should actually be placed with Detective and Agent because those three combined basically the watchers.

5. Spy should go with Framer because Framer needs a pairing in the event an investigator checks them.

[creedkingsx]

Lookout is easy to fake.
Play intelligently.
Don't claim Day 1.
They can.
Didn't realize we put coroner alone...

End result doesn't change.
It is already still there. Difference is Jester isn't.
Coroner will always be lynched which was the problem before.
Would agree with this if the rest weren't as is.
PM check, framer insta dies.

[Slaol]

Most of them are fine. However, some of them I have criticisms on.

1. Lookout/Arsonist: Once again, the Arsonist is in a shit pairing. Everyone should know how hard it is to fake a Lookout (unless you're an Agent). As such, once the Arsonist is detected by the Investigator, it's game over for him.

2. Jester: Why is he paired with Mayor, Mason Leader, and GF? Everyone ALWAYS makes the GF detection immune, therefore, it's very very very easy to confirm a Jester once an investigator tracks them. Beforehand, investigators often mistook jesters for godfathers, but now, the only way a jester can get lynched is if he acts like a retard and never gets checked.

3. Survivor/Amnesiac: Once again, they are in a shit position because they can possibly be paired with GF and Framer. And besides, even if neither are detection immune, town will just kill them off anyways.

4. Framer: Now, they can roflstomp all over sheriffs, but if an investigator checks them, then they are screwed. This is because I don't believe Framers can frame players as framers.

5. Coroner: It literally has no pairing. No non-unique town role should be this easy to confirm.
__________________________________________________ _________________

Suggestions:
1. Pair Survivors and Amnesiacs seperately. They're already mostly anti-town as it is, make them loners again.

2. Bring back the cit/sin alignment. It always consists of Citizens and Jesters, but also includes roles that can be immune to detection.

3. Coroner should be paired with Arsonist because Coroners are much easier to fake. It also makes sense because both roles use oil, Coroner use it to determine deaths, and Arsonist uses it to burn people down.

4. Lookout should actually be placed with Detective and Agent because those three combined basically the watchers.

5. Spy should go with Framer because Framer needs a pairing in the event an investigator checks them.

Arson's is an improvement. Lookout results are easier to fake than Bus Driver's feedback. Not perfect, but a +1.

Jester's makes Godfather not immune to detection a more viable thing, as well as giving Jesters an incentive to NOT bring attention to themselves. Jester + Invest = failure. Be subtle.

Survivor/Amnesiac are about a million times better. Just Benigns matched with Witch = death. This is a chance for survival.

Framers can, and basically strictly, frame as Framers if it is available.

Coroner is not in games or impactful enough to be a 100% guarantee lynch when found out to be a 'Janitor'.

[Deantwo]

from the two posts above explain nicely...

the changes in Investigative Pairings (http://wiki.sc2mafia.com/en/index.php/Template:InvestigativeClues) isn't perfect... but it's indeed better then it was ^^

i am mostly waiting for EU map to be updated... as i haven't even tried playing with new Investigative Pairings or roles... T_T

[BorkBot]

I personally think the most skewed pairing is the mafioso/sk/vigilante one.

I thought doctor/sk worked better.

Witch should be paired with Lookout for balance reasons: witch actually knows something about people visiting others.

Arsonist could easily go with Coroner.

[kyle1234513]

i liked the old pairings better because invests could just put in their last will - loner, citsin, weapons, knives, spends time with people.

now the invest has to write out mafioso/sk/vigi, jest/surv/cit, lookout/arson, exec/sheriff, it takes up more space in the last will then it used to, which is a -1 in my book.

[BorkBot]

i liked the old pairings better because invests could just put in their last will - loner, citsin, weapons, knives, spends time with people.

now the invest has to write out mafioso/sk/vigi, jest/surv/cit, lookout/arson, exec/sheriff, it takes up more space in the last will then it used to, which is a -1 in my book.
This is mostly just because people aren't used to the new pairings yet.

[ika]

i liked the old pairings better because invests could just put in their last will - loner, citsin, weapons, knives, spends time with people.

now the invest has to write out mafioso/sk/vigi, jest/surv/cit, lookout/arson, exec/sheriff, it takes up more space in the last will then it used to, which is a -1 in my book.

thats what many ppl did before and what ppl do now. but really how many ppl use the lw or even read it

[kyle1234513]

This is mostly just because people aren't used to the new pairings yet.

but then what are you going to shorten it down to? just the first letter? e/s, a/l, j/s/c, mf/sk/vig

we either need to abreviate all the roles or rework new characteristics of the roles into the description that the invest recieves. (preferably a single word that defines the group)

[BorkBot]

but then what are you going to shorten it down to? just the first letter? e/s, a/l, j/s/c, mf/sk/vig

we either need to abreviate all the roles or rework new characteristics of the roles into the description that the invest recieves. (preferably a single word that defines the group)

moving, unsusp, coroner, tracker, witch/doc, plumber, invest/consig/disguiser (not sure here), chains, lookout/arsonist (not sure here), secretive, leader, judge, arsenal, killer, framer

[louiswill]

Though I disagree in some parts, this is a good topic.

For godfather's part, this actually give me the power to lynch survivor when people out of lead.--which I always glad to ruin their victory.

But anyway, godfather pairing with citizen and survivor isn't that much different. -- people wont vote citizen innocent, now they can.

It is a improvement for citizen without changing the role itself.

think of playing citizen, citizen is important, etc etc..you do not want to let a possible godfather sit there and kill...

[yzb25]

Most of them are fine. However, some of them I have criticisms on.

1. Lookout/Arsonist: Once again, the Arsonist is in a shit pairing. Everyone should know how hard it is to fake a Lookout (unless you're an Agent). As such, once the Arsonist is detected by the Investigator, it's game over for him.

2. Jester: Why is he paired with Mayor, Mason Leader, and GF? Everyone ALWAYS makes the GF detection immune, therefore, it's very very very easy to confirm a Jester once an investigator tracks them. Beforehand, investigators often mistook jesters for godfathers, but now, the only way a jester can get lynched is if he acts like a retard and never gets checked.

3. Survivor/Amnesiac: Once again, they are in a shit position because they can possibly be paired with GF and Framer. And besides, even if neither are detection immune, town will just kill them off anyways.

4. Framer: Now, they can roflstomp all over sheriffs, but if an investigator checks them, then they are screwed. This is because I don't believe Framers can frame players as framers.

5. Coroner: It literally has no pairing. No non-unique town role should be this easy to confirm.
__________________________________________________ _________________

Suggestions:
1. Pair Survivors and Amnesiacs seperately. They're already mostly anti-town as it is, make them loners again.

2. Bring back the cit/sin alignment. It always consists of Citizens and Jesters, but also includes roles that can be immune to detection.

3. Coroner should be paired with Arsonist because Coroners are much easier to fake. It also makes sense because both roles use oil, Coroner use it to determine deaths, and Arsonist uses it to burn people down.

4. Lookout should actually be placed with Detective and Agent because those three combined basically the watchers.

5. Spy should go with Framer because Framer needs a pairing in the event an investigator checks them.


The new roles generally screw up the game xD.


One age-old problem was that the cult/mason pairing was intended for cults to act like masons. However cults would have the problem of no ml to secure the deal. I miss the days of noob sks claiming doc on the spot xD. Also the old jester/gf mechanic was cool. Also I loved the amne/surv/witch placement however I always felt it should just be witch/surv as the amne too was unnecessary. I despise how all the investigative msgs are getting turned into their enemy role equivalent (e.g. consort/escort, kidnapper / jailor), slowly but surely. I guess a few equivalents add their own metagame but we have enough. What about this:

"your target acts like he has some level of secret control over the town. He may be a witch doctor or a mason leader or even the godfather." (If gf is detectable)
This fixes the cult/mason problem (but only potentially because the host has to choose to add a witch doctor - one of the things I like the most about it).

Then we change it to:

"your target cares little for others. He seems to be a witch or a survivor."

Then we can do "your target seems insignificant but may have hidden power. He's probably just a citizen or amnesiac but he may be more important - a mayor." (and gf if gf is undetectable).

^Think about that for a moment. That will mainly take effect if mayor cannot be healed. It forces you to think twice about revealing the potential mayor to the town especially in end game. But at the same time if it's end game this may be your only chance.

I don't like the kidnapper role in general. It just seemed... unnecessary. Nor did I like the agent because it also seemed unnecessary. But they've been added now and I doubt they'll be removed so...

"Your target has entire arsenals of weapons. They seem like a vigilante or a mass murderer."

"Your target is paranoid and reserved. They seem to be a veteran or a kidnapper."

"Your target has execution equipment. They must be a jailor or a sk."

"Your target has cheap weapons capable of small warfare. They're probably a mafioso or a bodyguard.

^This may sound insane. And it kinda is. But think about it. If someone was a jailor before they were easily confirmed by mafioso/vigi/jailor. So it's actually quite similar in that sense. We haven't lost the old hilarious protective claims from doc/sk because of bg/mafioso. The veteran/kidnapper is simply interesting. Like the way bm/lookout is simply interesting. Vet/mm and kidnapper/jailor is so boring but it'd be interesting to see new crazy tactics imported. Vigi/mm is pretty much the old mafioso vs vigi. And sks are kinda imba right now so i think their invest msg should only delay the inevitable once they're checked (Let's be honest sk + maf work through the town so quickly).

So that leaves doc + beguiler + agent + spy

"Your target watches others from a vehicle. He must be a bus driver, detective or an agent".

"Your target is insane. He is probably a jester, but he could be an arsonist or a spy."

"You cannot make any direct conclusions from your target. Through elimination they must be disguiser, doctor, or beguiler

The bd/detective/agent is the new consort/escort/bg: bg is randomly added on because there's nowhere else to put it xD. Arsonist has been in long need of more survival strategies. So I've given him the old-school jester act to help the poor arsonist out. Beguiler/doctor/disguiser may seem random. But both mafia roles are just mafiosos upgraded with more survival capabilities. This is how I always looked at them. Giving them the chance to do an oldschool doctor claim seems appropriate for their roles.

Jeez, that was long. I doubt anyone will bother to read that xDDD

[MrMostache]

I don't think Lookout is easy to fake as an Arsonist. You will have to write random numbers and hope the town will overlook your clues.

[Cryptonic]

I don't think Lookout is easy to fake as an Arsonist. You will have to write random numbers and hope the town will overlook your clues.

Oh right, BD was so much easier to fake lol.

[CmG]

Oh right, BD was so much easier to fake lol.

Both is silly. Pair Arso with Doctor or some other town role who can't easily prove itself.

[kyle1234513]

Oh right, BD was so much easier to fake lol.

BD is super easy to fake in pub games, people outright say "i was bused last night"

and you could always say you swapd yourself with a dead person nights before, not like the dead can speak.

lookout is much harder to fake, all it takes is 1 townie to say "i did not visit that person on that night"

[CmG]

It's not. It's stupid. If you have a skype friend in game you are right. What about the games where no bd is present? He gets lynched/Killed and its your turn the next day. I did the swapping myself with a dead person thing a lot. Works 2 out of 10 times. If you are a lurking Arso nobody will believe it. If it's later than N2 nobody will believe it. The mafia knows your identity if you do fake claims like that. It's a bad pairing.

Why hould lookout be harder? Just do your trolololo Graveyard claims. Dead persons LW. Take em. Claim they visited this n that.

Bus driver is harder to fake because. 60% of games have no bus drivers. They create feedback for 2 people.

Lookout doesn't leave any feedback at all.

Think first!

[kyle1234513]

i always swap myself as bus driver, it keeps me alive longer and i almost always run someone over. only 1 person would have to confirm. i just completley disagree with lookout being easy to fake. it just isnt, if you are wrong on one count or if you dont have maf buddies going INNO they will hang you and vote guilty on the spot.

bus driver you can always say i swapd myself with a dead person each and every night, make people believe maf just wants you in particular dead.

[creedkingsx]

i always swap myself as bus driver, it keeps me alive longer and i almost always run someone over. only 1 person would have to confirm. i just completley disagree with lookout being easy to fake. it just isnt, if you are wrong on one count or if you dont have maf buddies going INNO they will hang you and vote guilty on the spot.

bus driver you can always say i swapd myself with a dead person each and every night, make people believe maf just wants you in particular dead.

The chances of you being attacked are the same as the chances of the person you target getting attacked.

[kyle1234513]

The chances of you being attacked are the same as the chances of the person you target getting attacked.

not if you use the same shiny colorful name each and every game. people begin to learn who you are, and eventually hate your guts.

i admit the possibility, and i always figure if i swap myself with someone who does get atkd, theyre more valuble than a bus driver.

[Voss]

The chances of you being attacked are the same as the chances of the person you target getting attacked.

Mathematically speaking, this is not completely true as mafia cant target teammates, and the bus driver makes it possible that they do

[cxx]

i always swap myself as bus driver, it keeps me alive longer and i almost always run someone over. only 1 person would have to confirm. i just completley disagree with lookout being easy to fake. it just isnt, if you are wrong on one count or if you dont have maf buddies going INNO they will hang you and vote guilty on the spot.

bus driver you can always say i swapd myself with a dead person each and every night, make people believe maf just wants you in particular dead.

Only a noob town would fall for this. If you swap yourself every night, it is impossible for you to be investigated as a bd/arso, unless your fake swap target also is. If you claim to have swapped yourself with dead persons, their roles are (in general) clear evidence that you're lying.

So, I think GF should be detectable in most setups now. I would rather pair GF with jester and mayor than with survivor and citizen.

[Raptorblaze]

There is no 100% satisfactory way to pair up the roles. Witch/Doctor/Witchdoctor was just too awesome not to do, Coroner is extremely circumstantial and we wanted to get rid of people killing them the moment they were checked so it's a slight buff to the role. I feel the majority of our changes are an improvement. Also I don't see how you can complain about framer considering he didn't change at all.

[BorkBot]

I think game mechanics should be a more important factor in making the pairings than how "awesome" it looks to put certain role names together.

[Cryptonic]

I think game mechanics should be a more important factor in making the pairings than how "awesome" it looks to put certain role names together.

I agree. I haven't played since the new roles were released, but I think they were pumped out and implemented too fast to have the optimal investigative pairings possible.

[Lazers]

I agree. I haven't played since the new roles were released, but I think they were pumped out and implemented too fast to have the optimal investigative pairings possible.

IMO they're far better than they were

Having 4+ roles in each pairing was fucktarded, and some of the pairings were unworkable in a gameplay sense

[creedkingsx]

not if you use the same shiny colorful name each and every game. people begin to learn who you are, and eventually hate your guts..

Pro-tip: Don't do that.
LOL

[CmG]

Arso/Doctor is still the best pairing an Arso could wish for. Especially with disabled dousing feedback. Will get him shot by mafia eventually or protected by another Doc or Bodyguard. gets other docs misslynched too huehue

[ika]

Pro-tip: Don't do that.
LOL

whats real fun it to prefer vet and say rage quit if town. everyone vistis you. ive seenp ppl make hilarity with that

[Raptorblaze]

I think game mechanics should be a more important factor in making the pairings than how "awesome" it looks to put certain role names together.

When DR realizes its a thing, awesomeness trumps role mechanics.

[Damus_Graves]

I believe Raptorblaze was referring to:

"Witch/Doctor/Witch Doctor was too beautiful to not group."

And you have to admit it does have some traits of that quality within it.

[BorkBot]

Doctor/Witch Doctor makes perfect sense. I think the witch is out of place though.

[louiswill]

Doctor/Witch Doctor makes perfect sense. I think the witch is out of place though.

they all brew herbs? old old old fashioned potions...sort like :?

[CmG]

Nah those times are long over. A modern witch orders her stuff over amazon.com or ebay

[Damus_Graves]

they all brew herbs? old old old fashioned potions...sort like :?

No.
They both heal.

[Doresain]

Keep in mind, two more town roles to come - hard to say how they will impact the pairings.

[creedkingsx]

No.
They both heal.

Witch heals?
oh

[Damus_Graves]

Witch heals?
oh

I didn't know Both included three things instead of two. :p

[CmG]

Keep in mind, two more town roles to come - hard to say how they will impact the pairings.

Everyone paired with [DETACTED] is a loser.

[Markers]

Can someone PLEASE explain to me when, where, and how an esc/cons would pretend to be a plumber. They should have stayed with BG.

[creedkingsx]

Doctor/Witch Doctor makes perfect sense. I think the witch is out of place though.


they all brew herbs? old old old fashioned potions...sort like :?


No.
They both heal.


Witch heals?
oh


I didn't know Both included three things instead of two. :p

You never specified which of the three which were on subject you were talking about, nor why you suddenly decided to not include one. :o

[Damus_Graves]

You never specified which of the three which were on subject you were talking about, nor why you suddenly decided to not include one. :o

There was a post in there that talked about Doc + Witch Docs making more sense, which was then questioned with this post:

they all brew herbs? old old old fashioned potions...sort like :?
Thus my response had been made.

:p

[creedkingsx]

There was a post in there that talked about Doc + Witch Docs making more sense, which was then questioned with this post:

Thus my response had been made.

:p

Doctors don't brew potions. O.o

[Damus_Graves]

Doctors don't brew potions. O.o

They used to during the Medieval periods and before. It was called a Salve if I remember correctly.

[Titus]

Maybe one of the new roles would pair better with arson, even though it did improve. Can someone pm me the link to vote on the new roles?

[Mugy]

Maybe one of the new roles would pair better with arson, even though it did improve. Can someone pm me the link to vote on the new roles?

Voting is now over, and you need to be a member of R&D to access to vote thread.