S-FM 207 Island Conflict

[Calix]

Never Unlucky has at various times attempted to prod a number of players, including Mesk, myself, Spruance, Kovath, and others. He's been more proactive in prodding, which tends to be a Town quality, in terms of getting thoughts out of people. Admittedly, many of his prods haven't been successful, but it's something, especially given how this game began.

Town-reading someone for the ability to poke players. Not a town tell, darling. That's just standard FM play 101.

What would the success of his prods have to do with his alignment? Filler much.

After the game say that again. Eggy is scum. More likely than any other player here.

Yeah I bloody well will at this atrocity of a slot. How the hell is that making him your strongest scum-read?

[Spruance]

Yeah I bloody well will at this atrocity of a slot. How the hell is that making him your strongest scum-read?

because he bloody well is lmao

[Calix]

And yes Calix, those statements slightly contradicted themselves but they were used in different contexts. I said people play the same as all alignments, hence their play style. I said Calix is always a town read because his play style is always pressuring people and giving reads, which is commonly associated with playing like town. I have to reconcile my personal viewpoints with the general ones at some point.

Why are you using the third person to refer to me when your post is supposed to be directed at me? O_o

'he'

You'd be ten times more productive if you just made a long wallpost about how you view the game of mafia in general, to be honest. Would be useful for future games too.

lmao

[Calix]

Given how this thread blew up, expect my reads to do a 180 when I wake up tomorrow and have the chance to properly read all the new posts.

[Kovath]

How have you reached that strong of a conclusion on Eggy given he's posted one or something in this game? By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?

Spruance just explained that it's because Eggy "slipped" in his post, not because Eggy only made one post. Ignoring the quality of Spruance's argument, why did you boil it down to an incorrect characterization like this?

[DarknessB]

Is there only one page? Ive never opened a thread with only one page lol.. feels strange

-vote kovath

Since we're discussing it at length, this is Eggy's one post in the game so far -- an RVS vote which was post #16 of the game overall. I'm amazed that Spruance strong scumreads Eggy for that lofty contribution to the game.

[Spruance]

Why are you using the third person to refer to me when your post is supposed to be directed at me? O_o

'he'

You'd be ten times more productive if you just made a long wallpost about how you view the game of mafia in general, to be honest. Would be useful for future games too.

lmao

You accuse me of making non contribution posts but honestly read your post again and tell me it contributes any more than mine.

[DarknessB]

Spruance just explained that it's because Eggy "slipped" in his post, not because Eggy only made one post. Ignoring the quality of Spruance's argument, why did you boil it down to an incorrect characterization like this?

You're misrepping my post. Eggy's one post is an RVS vote, which I just pulled out. That anyone hard scumreads someone based on making just one post (and an RVS vote at that) is astonishing to me. The "given he's posted one or something in this game" is my own thought, not Spruance's.

[Calix]

You accuse me of making non contribution posts but honestly read your post again and tell me it contributes any more than mine.

You would almost have a valid point were it not for the fact that I have contributed considerably more than you have. Not lurking for half of the game will do that.

I was being serious with my suggestion, by the way. You keep referring to this magical unicorn playstyle of yours which is too hipster for us mainstream plebs. Why don't you enlighten us with telling us all about it?

[Spruance]

You would almost have a valid point were it not for the fact that I have contributed considerably more than you have. Not lurking for half of the game will do that.

I was being serious with my suggestion, by the way. You keep referring to this magical unicorn playstyle of yours which is too hipster for us mainstream plebs. Why don't you enlighten us with telling us all about it?

Then it wouldn't work anymore.

[Kovath]

You're misrepping my post. Eggy's one post is an RVS vote, which I just pulled out. That anyone hard scumreads someone based on making just one post (and an RVS vote at that) is astonishing to me. The "given he's posted one or something in this game" is my own thought, not Spruance's.

No, I didn't misrep your logic. He said that he scumread Eggy based on the CONTENT of that one post. Yet you asked this question: "By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?" Thus you boiled it down to a question of activity and the actual making of the post itself, rather than what was in it.

[DarknessB]

No, I didn't misrep your logic. He said that he scumread Eggy based on the CONTENT of that one post. Yet you asked this question: "By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?" Thus you boiled it down to a question of activity and the actual making of the post itself, rather than what was in it.

Feel free to read that post and tell me where the "slip" was then. You're arguing semantics and it's making me suspicious of you for pushing such a silly point. I wasn't responding to Spruance's reasoning, I was responding to the fact that there was literally one post (an RVS vote) and nothing scummy seeming in it.

[Calix]

This DB/ Kovath interaction caught my eye. Kind of lagging in terms of brain power but my initial impressions are that it makes Kovath look better and DB look worse. Kovath calls out DB on simplifying Spruance's argument. DB immediately characterises it as a misrepresentation and when pushed further, tries to deflect the matter by asking Kovath to point out the slip in Eggy's post. I don't see an adequate explanation for the original point that Kovath made, thus this looks like a derailing tactic to sidestep the main issue.

Suspecting Kovath for pushing on semantics is also absurd for the simple reason that some players scum-hunt that way. DB, please explain how pushing that 'minor' point is scummy, otherwise it just looks like you are reactive-scum-reading Kovath...which you were criticising earlier with MiniZed/ Spruance if I recall correctly.

Don't let me interrupt the budding discussion though - I've been looking forward to a DB vs Kovath confrontation for some time, ehehehe.

How have you reached that strong of a conclusion on Eggy given he's posted one or something in this game? By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?

Since we're discussing it at length, this is Eggy's one post in the game so far -- an RVS vote which was post #16 of the game overall. I'm amazed that Spruance strong scumreads Eggy for that lofty contribution to the game.

Spruance just explained that it's because Eggy "slipped" in his post, not because Eggy only made one post. Ignoring the quality of Spruance's argument, why did you boil it down to an incorrect characterization like this?

You're misrepping my post. Eggy's one post is an RVS vote, which I just pulled out. That anyone hard scumreads someone based on making just one post (and an RVS vote at that) is astonishing to me. The "given he's posted one or something in this game" is my own thought, not Spruance's.

No, I didn't misrep your logic. He said that he scumread Eggy based on the CONTENT of that one post. Yet you asked this question: "By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?" Thus you boiled it down to a question of activity and the actual making of the post itself, rather than what was in it.

Feel free to read that post and tell me where the "slip" was then. You're arguing semantics and it's making me suspicious of you for pushing such a silly point. I wasn't responding to Spruance's reasoning, I was responding to the fact that there was literally one post (an RVS vote) and nothing scummy seeming in it.

[Kovath]

Feel free to read that post and tell me where the "slip" was then. You're arguing semantics and it's making me suspicious of you for pushing such a silly point. I wasn't responding to Spruance's reasoning, I was responding to the fact that there was literally one post (an RVS vote) and nothing scummy seeming in it.

Here is your post:

How have you reached that strong of a conclusion on Eggy given he's posted one or something in this game? By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?

Do I think Spruance's reasoning was pure shiet? Yes. But my question toward you isn't at all related to the validity of Spruance's point - it was in relation to your question, "By the same logic, wouldn't RLVG be scum?" You argue that Eggy did not make any posts of content, and so his contribution was essentially equivalent to RLVG's, who hasn't even posted at all, thus equating Spruance's read to a scumread on nothing -> therefore a scumread on RLVG would have been equally valid. But that was NOT Spruance's argument, and that is why I asked why you boiled it down so.

Again, it doesn't matter how weak or strong Spruance's original point was; his read had nothing to do with activity, which is what you (either intentionally or unintentionally) characterized it as: "Hey, if you have this logic why don't, or why couldn't, you scumread RLVG too?". Regardless of how substantive Eggy's post actually was, it did have words that Spruance claims to interpret in a certain way.

Perhaps you were projecting your own thoughts on this discussion, though your wording more suggests what should be going on in Spruance's mind since he's scumreading an RVS post. But still, I don't think that necessarily warrants this kind of reaction to my questioning. Now you default to "You tell me where the slip was," "semantics," and "this is a silly point to argue".

[Kovath]

Speaking of which, an ongoing conversation is not an excuse for you lurker / shitposter types to go into hibernation.

[DarknessB]

This DB/ Kovath interaction caught my eye. Kind of lagging in terms of brain power but my initial impressions are that it makes Kovath look better and DB look worse. Kovath calls out DB on simplifying Spruance's argument. DB immediately characterises it as a misrepresentation and when pushed further, tries to deflect the matter by asking Kovath to point out the slip in Eggy's post. I don't see an adequate explanation for the original point that Kovath made, thus this looks like a derailing tactic to sidestep the main issue.

Suspecting Kovath for pushing on semantics is also absurd for the simple reason that some players scum-hunt that way. DB, please explain how pushing that 'minor' point is scummy, otherwise it just looks like you are reactive-scum-reading Kovath...which you were criticising earlier with MiniZed/ Spruance if I recall correctly.

Don't let me interrupt the budding discussion though - I've been looking forward to a DB vs Kovath confrontation for some time, ehehehe.

I was criticizing Spruance's scumread from the lack of objective evidence behind it -- one RVS post without any clear slip in it. You're correct that some players scumhunt with semantics, but it can also be used as a tactic to misrep players.

Kovath has been giving me shade over a series of posts now -- first, his post about how I was overly focused on "game theory" (ignoring the fact that he was making a game theory point in that very same post and spend copious amounts of time at the beginning of the game talking about policy lynch logistics). Then, his suggesting I wasn't focused on alignments despite a number of posts to that effect on MiniZed, Never Unlucky, and Spruance. And, now this semantics nonsense.

I have the same bad vibe on him that I did on Whad in Return to Normalcy if that helps anyone who played / observed that game.

[Spruance]

Speaking of which, an ongoing conversation is not an excuse for you lurker / shitposter types to go into hibernation.

Is real life a good reason to go afk?

[Calix]

I was criticizing Spruance's scumread from the lack of objective evidence behind it -- one RVS post without any clear slip in it. You're correct that some players scumhunt with semantics, but it can also be used as a tactic to misrep players.

Kovath has been giving me shade over a series of posts now -- first, his post about how I was overly focused on "game theory" (ignoring the fact that he was making a game theory point in that very same post and spend copious amounts of time at the beginning of the game talking about policy lynch logistics). Then, his suggesting I wasn't focused on alignments despite a number of posts to that effect on MiniZed, Never Unlucky, and Spruance. And, now this semantics nonsense.

I have the same bad vibe on him that I did on Whad in Return to Normalcy if that helps anyone who played / observed that game.

It sounds like you are scum-reading bad play more than scum play. I recall that a lot of your catch-up posts related to Spruance, Gyrlander and MiniZed. Now I'd consider those to be the lowest-hanging-fruit in the thread, thus making it look like you are picking on easy targets.

Pushing a player for a perceived mischaracterisation =/= throwing shade. Ironically, you are throwing shade on him by characterising his push in that manner.

>correct that some players scum-hunt with semantics
>semantics nonsense

Legit.

Want to explain that vibe instead of forcing people to read a game just to understand your fee-fees?

[Calix]

Is real life a good reason to go afk?

Must have been some really good porn you found, eh?

[Spruance]

Must have been some really good porn you found, eh?

ooooh got em

[Kovath]

Going to bring up some of the posts DB is referring to about his contribution focusing on alignments.

Flagging this post for further consideration. I might understand if Never Unlucky was trying to soft claim having received some night feedback later in the game, but asking strategy questions about scum roles during Day 1 for no particular reason is odd at best, scummy at worst. I don't like it.

I have no idea why Never Unlucky is asking random, almost WIFOM, questions about different roles. It feels a bit weird to me like he's either strategizing about how to play certain roles or attempting to look helpful by engaging in setup speculation as opposed to reads -- i.e. IIOA. I'd almost say there's a kernel of borderline scum coaching given the other questions about the supernatural role too. I just haven't seen Town do this very often in any sort of a helpful way so it catches me strangely.

Focusing on yourself is the definition of survivalist in nature. Yes, we've seen examples of players adopting this approach who weren't scum, but scum have a lot more of a motivation to stay alive to winning the game, especially solo scum like the supernatural. If you're Town, you should be scumhunting and questioning players, not moping about yourself.

I'm going to ignore the nonsense about "being prepared", but just saying this admission of being self-centered is anti-town at best and scummy at worst.

#1: There's this constant demurring of actually giving a read off any of this - he defaults to "this feels strange" or, as in the last post, "this could be anti-town or could be scummy!" So, do some work and delve into the slot and give a judgment on which you think it is.

#2: The last quote is referring to MiniZed, yet the actual content of the post itself has little to do with MiniZed and his posts, instead being a more general exposition on considering survivalist play. See last sentence of #1. It feels to me like he's just taking the point made by others and conceded by MiniZed himself to make this kinda theoretical post - yet still refuses to give an ultimate alignment read.

Why in god's name were you planning on roleplaying again? The idea is to find the scum, not occupy the day with nonsense. The only saving grace you might have would be if this is some attempt to channel SuperJack and roleplay / post nonsense to avoid a d1 lynch or n1 target. While that has tended to be townplay (at least when done by SJ), it's brutal for the quality of the game. That having been said, you just admitted you were going to roleplay regarding of what you rolled so I guess even that explanation is gone.

Again.

[DarknessB]

It sounds like you are scum-reading bad play more than scum play. I recall that a lot of your catch-up posts related to Spruance, Gyrlander and MiniZed. Now I'd consider those to be the lowest-hanging-fruit in the thread, thus making it look like you are picking on easy targets.

Pushing a player for a perceived mischaracterisation =/= throwing shade. Ironically, you are throwing shade on him by characterising his push in that manner.

>correct that some players scum-hunt with semantics
>semantics nonsense

Legit.

Want to explain that vibe instead of forcing people to read a game just to understand your fee-fees?

I've made that mistake before for sure -- equivocating bad play with scum play. Most notably the fiasco know as Final Fantasy. Fair point there and I will reread the game so far to see if I missed anything.

To be fair, I don't recall having said that much on Gyrlander, mostly because there wasn't much to review. The others (Spruance, MiniZed, and Never Unlucky) at least had a decent amount of content. In comparison, others that I didn't have much to say about haven't themselves said much of anything -- e.g. Eggy (1 post, RVS), Mesk (mostly fluff), and RLVG (0 posts). Kovath's posts during the early-game were mostly meta discussion with you about how one could ever scumread Gyrlander, which was a policy discussion, if anything. You were mostly prodding the game along and didn't seem to have much controversial that caught my eye.

The vibe is the sense that players who are overly technical with their reads can be using them in order to push for mislynches. Whad was doing that a lot during Day 1 of Return to Normalcy, and in the same way, I feel like Kovath has taken some odd shots -- most notably, the one criticizing me for policy discussion, especially when he himself has done a lot of that earlier on (and in fact, in the same post containing the criticism). The Spruance point seems to be poking me for not addressing the "slip" part of Spruance's explanation, which I asked Spruance to explain in another response.

I'm not suggesting that we go with Firebringer-like gut reads vs. analysis, but I feel the other extreme has problems too because if you go technical enough, you can make anyone seem scummy with semantics. TLDR: Digging around overly deeply with semantics-type arguments in order to portray someone as scummy is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

[Kovath]

Spruance, one line posts just clog the game and don't give us much to analyze. This isn't a chat room -- if you need time to think about what to say, take that time, but these responses are crap and anti-town at the very least.

I know I haven't played with Spruance in some time, but he seems more feeble in this game than in others he's played lately? Do you regard that as AI in any way? I mean, we're literally having a conversation about how it's useless to try to read people because they act the same whether they're scum or not. This is in lieu of any actual reads from him or contribution.

I feel like players who are intent on having meta conversations vs. engaging in the actual game are more likely to be scum. Spruance has played enough by this point that he should know a thing or two about scumhunting. He lasted a while in the M-FM if I recall, so why the sudden regression in player ability? Maybe he's having problems pretending to scumhunt if he's scum? There's also the risk of this just being another Spruance being Spruance type game though. Ugh...

I feel like Spruance is playing a little too cautiously with these reads. Annotations in cyan:

Basically, 4/5 Town-reads have been active, the null pile is a mixed bag (more inactive than active, IMO), and the one scum read has been virtually AFK. Either Spruance is equivocating posting with being Town-sided or he's being risk-averse by town-reading the active players so they don't push him.

I still don't quite see the work and judgments being done here beyond examining Spruance's reads list in terms of surface impressions of activity / content. Yet again, no committal alignment analysis of any sort, no attempt to cohere a narrative.

This is not necessarily indicative of scumplay, but I am trying to explain where my perspective on DB's overall contribution comes from.

[Calix]

I still don't quite see the work and judgments being done here beyond examining Spruance's reads list in terms of surface impressions of activity / content. Yet again, no committal alignment analysis of any sort, no attempt to cohere a narrative.

This is not necessarily indicative of scumplay, but I am trying to explain where my perspective on DB's overall contribution comes from.

You should read DB's posts in Return to Normalcy for a comparison. He was a Citizen there.

That may help you clarify by yourself wherever you are scum-reading him for legitimate reasons or playstyle variations.

[DarknessB]

I still don't quite see the work and judgments being done here beyond examining Spruance's reads list in terms of surface impressions of activity / content. Yet again, no committal alignment analysis of any sort, no attempt to cohere a narrative.

This is not necessarily indicative of scumplay, but I am trying to explain where my perspective on DB's overall contribution comes from.

I'd like to apologize to Kovath for not immediately chantingat everyone within my first 15 minutes reading the thread or wasting everyone's time with a giant thread about how one could theoretically scumread Gyrlander. Sorry I let you all down.

[Calix]

1. I've made that mistake before for sure -- equivocating bad play with scum play. Most notably the fiasco know as Final Fantasy. Fair point there and I will reread the game so far to see if I missed anything.

2. To be fair, I don't recall having said that much on Gyrlander, mostly because there wasn't much to review. The others (Spruance, MiniZed, and Never Unlucky) at least had a decent amount of content. In comparison, others that I didn't have much to say about haven't themselves said much of anything -- e.g. Eggy (1 post, RVS), Mesk (mostly fluff), and RLVG (0 posts). Kovath's posts during the early-game were mostly meta discussion with you about how one could ever scumread Gyrlander, which was a policy discussion, if anything. You were mostly prodding the game along and didn't seem to have much controversial that caught my eye.

3. The vibe is the sense that players who are overly technical with their reads can be using them in order to push for mislynches. Whad was doing that a lot during Day 1 of Return to Normalcy, and in the same way, I feel like Kovath has taken some odd shots -- most notably, the one criticizing me for policy discussion, especially when he himself has done a lot of that earlier on (and in fact, in the same post containing the criticism). The Spruance point seems to be poking me for not addressing the "slip" part of Spruance's explanation, which I asked Spruance to explain in another response.

4. I'm not suggesting that we go with Firebringer-like gut reads vs. analysis, but I feel the other extreme has problems too because if you go technical enough, you can make anyone seem scummy with semantics. TLDR: Digging around overly deeply with semantics-type arguments in order to portray someone as scummy is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

1. Why do you keep bringing up so many previous games this round?

2. Not saying 'that much' on Gyrloser doesn't detract from my point. Spruance did not have a decent amount of content when you started catching up.

Your vague statement in relation to me sounds like you are deliberately avoiding an in-depth read in an attempt to get me to ignore/ side with you. Not going to get away with that, lovie.

3. You can push for mislynches with all types of reads.

So you are accusing Kovath of being a hypocrite. Want to go into more detail using his posts and explain why that makes him suspicious then?

4. I still do not see how Kovath misrepresented what you did to Spruance's argument to begin with.

[Calix]

I'd like to apologize to Kovath for not immediately chantingat everyone within my first 15 minutes reading the thread or wasting everyone's time with a giant thread about how one could theoretically scumread Gyrlander. Sorry I let you all down.

Ah yes, if it isn't the smell of sarcasm and seething aggression directed at the main player pushing you, complete with exaggerations of their comments on Gyrloser as "wasting everyone's time with a giant thread" (where I'm pretty sure he was complaining about lynching Gyrloser, not scum-reading him)

Scummy emotional response detected.

[MiniZed]

Okay, for the reference, and i am really tired of always reading this so I am going to say this. It's people like Calix+Darkness and I as well that make people not want to give reads. I for one have realized how frustrated it is to be called stupid/dumb/doesn't read constantly and it makes me not want to participate. Keep in mind when it comes to this game that NOBODY wants to be told they suck. Does that REALLY encourage discussion?

Mesk514:

okay I'm ready for another game of proving I am always town.... this shit is kinda getting old... someone host a game and give me scum.

She starts off once again being her usual self and announcing that she is town once again like always...

Okay, who wants to have a nice drunk calm conversation with me about why I'm always town. Offer expires at 2am Mountain time as after 6+ hours of being drunk I often get a head ache

Nothing stops her from saying that she is always town. There's nothing like saying you are town constantly in attempt to convince them you're town..... except, maybe being helpful. (Hypocricy detected, shut the fuck up if someone comments here, I feel like shit)

you were too slow so you get the meh answer...

because it's a fact.

ta duuuhh

3/4 messages have been spent on her saying she's town. It feels more forced this game.

you whore, how dare you go against the facts of nature.

Poor reaction to a vote, claiming it's a "fact" that she is always town. This doesn't seem natural for Mesk if you ask me.

how would you like me to speculate when the only conversation thats going is me?

would you like to analyze myself

okay

mesk=town

i know its getting old, but its true.

She has said it again! I'm only recording this to prove my point that she has been more desperate about her 'title' this game.

I havent disappered, and if i did... its 3am i think that should be acceptable..

anyway... Never Unlucky came out very very determined to have a convo with you, Calix.. do you not see that as potential buddying? get the smart ones attention then hide in plain sight?
"4. Explain why they are likely to use their ability N1."... answering a question with a question seems more like an trying to get change the route of the conversations so one doesn't dwell on a certain aspect

Spruance always comes off as dumb town or scum, but the only smart thing they've done before is that the old saying is that I'm always town, and he's totally recognized it... although he could know for a fact i am town... could be buddying


kovath hasn't said anything

eggy placed a policy vote

calix is calix

My problem with this is it's basically throwing unnecessary share towards NU claiming it's buddying. However, being in a game, everyone knows it's more of redemption then clear sight buddying. This reads list also comes early in the game for Mesk, which seems unusual to me.

hush up you troll, nothing i ever say is weird as fuck compared to half the things the rest of this community says.

She now appears to be directing shade off herself and trying to put it on others. Who the fuck cares if they do it worse? If you kill one person and someone else kills 3, does that make you any more innocent?

Leaning Null/Scum for now. Moving on.

Gyrlander:

Geez, Calix has already said I'm useless and we haven't pass the 1st page

I agree Mesk feels a little weird with the "I'm Mesk I'm always town". Either she's bored of being town, or she feels the need of telling us repeatively.

Feels bad man. I can slightly see some pity touching here, (Hypocricy detected, apparently) and i'm not a big fan of it. Otherwise, it looks like Gyrlander is paying attention to the game more then usual.

I'm pretty sure you guys should stop talking about lurking. It just encourages it.

I don't mind this, if Gyrlander is going to share his opinion, he should be able to, not to mention that it's a valid point. Disappointed by the point below it.

Shut the fk up and play the game you scrublord.

I think this is a little strange. Normally you read me as scum in every game and claim that I'm useless as fuck but this one you say "my way of not giving a fuck is town-read"... That's my meta and it is really strange you're trying to town-read me for it.

-vote Calix

He is looking at connections and commenting on Calix's shift in her every game behavior. I like what he's done so far, even though it's little as of this moment.

Null. I do think he is giving off a more town vibe than usual. Next.

DarknessB:

MiniZed? One is already too many...

-vote MiniZed

He knew who I was, so I find it weird he needed to pretend that he didn't know who I was. Unless of course, its RP.

I have no idea what you're trying to say with this response -- please use words, not emoticons. Yes, Mesk says that she's always Town and typically enjoys projecting that message, especially during Day 1. For what it's worth, I don't think she was as vocal with her being Town message during Return to Normalcy when she rolled scum, but I'm not basing an entire read on some weak one-time meta. Null read for now until she posts more.

Feels like a slight defense on Mesk's behalf, going to note it down for now. His opinion is also based on her second game, so I don't know why it is really taken into consideration.

I have no idea why Never Unlucky is asking random, almost WIFOM, questions about different roles. It feels a bit weird to me like he's either strategizing about how to play certain roles or attempting to look helpful by engaging in setup speculation as opposed to reads -- i.e. IIOA. I'd almost say there's a kernel of borderline scum coaching given the other questions about the supernatural role too. I just haven't seen Town do this very often in any sort of a helpful way so it catches me strangely.

This feels one-sided. Why don't you take into considering why SCUM would do this though? There is no reason to do this on any alignment, unless out of curiosity. If scum were to do this, it makes no sense because asking this question would be very bad in terms of being hidden. I'm noting the lack of consideration on both sides.

Focusing on yourself is the definition of survivalist in nature. Yes, we've seen examples of players adopting this approach who weren't scum, but scum have a lot more of a motivation to stay alive to winning the game, especially solo scum like the supernatural. If you're Town, you should be scumhunting and questioning players, not moping about yourself.

I'm going to ignore the nonsense about "being prepared", but just saying this admission of being self-centered is anti-town at best and scummy at worst.

I haven't said this is purposeful, but yet you make it seem like I'm doing this on purpose. I have been feeling shit, may sound like I'm making excuses but at this point i don't care, I just did not want to abandon the game in my current position. Also, trying to tell me what I should be doing, (stating the obvious) is a massive discredit as I think i've done fine in certain games.

You are ignoring how I play? Fine. I don't care if you don't get it, I can't benefit until I get myself comfortable in the game. If that is impossible for you to believe, so be it.

This is off the charts cringeworthy, lol. Justifying an OMGUS vote as roleplaying? I have no problem with you using a smurf, but it shouldn't be affecting your actual substantive ability to play the game. If this is your scumplay, it's really shit the bed since the Beginner's Game...

You SERIOUSLY need to stop the discredit, it's annoying as fuck, and i'm pretty sure not only for me. Also, if you think i'm hiding behind a smurf, I find that to be completely ridiculous. There is no reason, considering my intentions coming into this game as a smurf weren't completely different. I always troll, and i don't think a bit of trolling will hurt anything.

Why in god's name were you planning on roleplaying again? The idea is to find the scum, not occupy the day with nonsense. The only saving grace you might have would be if this is some attempt to channel SuperJack and roleplay / post nonsense to avoid a d1 lynch or n1 target. While that has tended to be townplay (at least when done by SJ), it's brutal for the quality of the game. That having been said, you just admitted you were going to roleplay regarding of what you rolled so I guess even that explanation is gone.

Why not? If i can't have a bit of trolling and be judged for it, it seems unreasonable for you to say that. If you've seen me play, I do get to my points, whether it is early day 1 or not shouldn't be a bad thing.

I know I haven't played with Spruance in some time, but he seems more feeble in this game than in others he's played lately? Do you regard that as AI in any way? I mean, we're literally having a conversation about how it's useless to try to read people because they act the same whether they're scum or not. This is in lieu of any actual reads from him or contribution.

As i've been reading, you've only covered people who are low hanging fruit. Did you miss all the posts made by anyone else? I mean, Calix if you won't call him out for ignoring posts then I guess I will.

Why is Eggy your lead scum candidate? Seems odd to be voting someone who isn't even here -- I feel like that shuts down conversation vs. adds to it, especially when there's no justification provided for the vote.

What purpose was your vote serving then? You voted me early on, left for about a day, then come back and start talking, even though i wasn't even around for most of that time. That's hypocritical to say.

Scum. I don't agree with his play, feels like he's using his 'power' image to pick on the weaker players as of this moment. I guess i'll continue.

Kovath:

Oh, I guess I should elaborate that "low-key trying to feebly dodge a PL" -> more what I thing would come from scum!lander than town!lander, who would just be "lolololo I'm town and I know it so I don't give a shit what you think or about the possibility of a PL".

Why do you believe Gyrlander would need to try to survive a PL attempt? He almost rarely gets PL'd, and I don't see any reason for him to stop based on him being scum. It's even in Unknown's signature.

This is a bit more of tenuous thing, but he also ignored Gyrlander's post asking "What the fk is a MiniZed?" yet responded to DB's post + vote.

I admit that the posts aren't really similar in content other than confused / semi-negative tone + mention of MiniZed, but nevertheless another incongruity highlighting being more attentive to votes.

Kovath has been drawing attention to a few useless posts, including his first post. It feels like a lowkey way of drawing attention away from the conversation. What do you SERIOUSLY think I could say to "What the fk is a MiniZed" that would be useful at all?

You know what, I'm getting pumped for this train now. I want answers.

-vote MiniZed

You really sheeped Calix's vote. You know what? Because you left me nothing to be answered when I got back. no questions, nothing.

The "OMGUS" part is what was being stressed, not the "vote" part. Are you deliberately responding obtusely like this?

Also, I also said that I completely forgot what OMGUS stood for, and nobody answered. Are people really that sassy this game?

Never Unlucky is gone too...

And these other lurkers

::

It's comments like these that feel wrong. You comment on how people are not around, but you really DON'T try to get people to come. Try getting something worth talking about going instead of sitting around and waiting for Calix to do it.

You're usually reticent with your townreads, or at least explaining them. Is there something distinctive about them being more tone-based this game?

I don't mind this. The fact you are willing to comment on Calix, someone that most people would just say "confirmed town" is actually showing positive notes.

Spruance just explained that it's because Eggy "slipped" in his post, not because Eggy only made one post. Ignoring the quality of Spruance's argument, why did you boil it down to an incorrect characterization like this?

I like this. It's not looking at the quantity, it's looking at the quality of the posts being looked at. Why are people not considering every part of a problem/comment?

Speaking of which, an ongoing conversation is not an excuse for you lurker / shitposter types to go into hibernation.

Get them Involved, don't just say "speak" when does that ever work?

Null. I've been seeing better results from Kovath towards the end that I like. Hope it continues.

Eggy! The exciting read.

Is there only one page? Ive never opened a thread with only one page lol.. feels strange

-vote kovath

Don't really follow this vote. Also, what need is there to point out that it's only on the first page? Almost as if he intended to miss the first chunk of the day.

Null, evidently.

Never Unlucky:

-vote Calix

The new kid won't get outted easily this time.

Brings up recent game. Most people would try to ignore it and play different in order to win, but the fact that he hasn't shows a bit.

I cannot tell why, but I really do not like this post. Probably because it looks a lot like my own last game scum opening post.



How are you assuming that I was "very determined" to have a conversation with Calix? How is having a conversation with someone "buddying"?

Lol. Calix's 4 point wasn't a question. It was rather a statement I did understand, so I asked her to explain to me where she was coming from with it.

How is Eggy's vote a policy vote?

@Spruance Warning. I will not tolerate your trolling/lurking/refusing to collaborate/not following shitty meta this game.

I will say, however, that I do not approve of comparing yourself with how others play. It really DOESN'T WORK. That could be comparing RLVG with PLZLEAVEDUCKK (Random example to prove my point)

And AI. You didn't post a single time and got replaced.

Fuck, I meant null-lean-town, I swear. I got mixed up.

Interesting wording. You treat the mistake as more of a scum-slip by being so defensive.

I still don't know what I did wrong to get outed in Politico other than mentionning I was a noob in my first post (Which is sort of what Mesk is doing here with her "always town" rule).

@DarknessB , what are your reads so far?

-vote DarknessB

Continuing to bring up the previous game, which I still feel means they are more likely to be town, but this is a very early impression. Also prompts others to contribute, lousy question but none the less.

Grand Witch
"Has a two charge ability to redirect the actions of players at night. Can select up to 2 players per night and redirect each of them individually into any other player."

Voodoo Doctor
"Has a one-time ability to randomly redirect all players’ night actions into other players."

If a player does not submit an action for a night and the Voodoo Doctor/Grand Witch uses its night ability, is the said player forced to commit an action? ie: Blowgun warrior chooses not to shoot a poison dart N1 and the SN uses its ability. Would the Blowgun warrior be forced to do a night action?

@Iced_Monopoly

I don't think this is scum saying this. IMO they wouldn't be so blatant and obvious about questions that could be interpreted as scum asking them, ESPECIALLY since they have the redemption mood.

I really have no fucking idea why I asked both those questions. The answers don't even interest me.

Spruance shitposting rather than coming back on some things after 147 posts...
Yet again REFUSING to do anything beneficial to the town.

-vote Spruance

Slight odd defense of themself by overreacting again to something understandable.

The vote is odd, too. I still feel like scum NU would have hopped on my train.

Town-lean. Like this slot ATM.

Spruance:

^^^

Such an odd way to agree with something.

Well there are 7 good guys and 2 mafia and 1 serial killer. There will be a night kill until all 3 of them are dead. (assuming we never lynch me) 3/9 chance of lynching a bad guy day 1, 6/9 chance of a mislynch. Then 1/7 chance the mafia hit the serial killer, and 6/7 chance they hit a townie. Day 2 57.1% chance 5 good guys 2 mafia and 1 serial killer. (assuming I'm alive and we don't lynch me) 3/7 chance of lynching a bad guy and 4/7 chance of lynching a good guy. If mislynch then 2/6 chance of serial killer killing a mafia and 4/6 chance of killing a townie. Day 3 4/7*4/6=38.1% chance 3 good guys 2 mafia and 1 serial killer, which is most likely GG. So there is only about a 21.7% chance that we get to Day 3 with the same amount of good guys as bad guys. My point is vigilante shouldn't shoot night 1 if there is a mislynch because it will more than likely screw us over. We just need to play the odds and chill.

Everyone could assume this, so in reality it just clogs/distracts the thread. Why post this?

I said both... I specified TPR or not to emphasize that "reading" people provides little and usually no information.

I don't mind that he is actually being mature and commenting in a better way, compared to his usual play of "if you don't agree with me I don't like you."

-vote Never Unlucky

Before you ask yes I am voting him because he voted me and I disagree with his viewpoint.

Spoke too soon. This is probably Town, scum wouldn't vote like this to stand out.

My argument is day 1 is RNG I can make reads as people start to slip. I'm not going to go back and look at how each individual person played in past games, I evaluate based on how they progress and react in the game I am playing. If you want to lynch me because I disagree with mainstream opinion then by all means lynch away.

I still don't like the "searching for slips" aspect. You can't expect slips to come TO YOU, you have to encourage conversation to GET THEM.

If you care so much about my reads here they are.

p.s. Calix don't you dare ask me to explain them!



TOWN
Spruance
Calix
Mesk514
Never Unlucky
MiniZed

SCUM
Eggy


NULL
RLVG
Kovath
Gyrlander
DarknessB

that one scum-read shocks me. I'm shocked you have me as town though, doesn't feel right.

because he scum slipped lmao

Using the only 'slip' he finds to encourage a lynch. Not a good style, but nonetheless feels town motivated.

YOU always play like town. Most experienced players with no lives always play like town, at least day 1. Other people perhaps not as much.

You can always find inconsistencies, you just have to put effort in to find them. If they aren't there, then you're probably right, but saying someone always plays like town doesn't work.

Join Date: May 2016

"feels strange"

What is the value of this post?

Leaning town for Spruance.

I don't care if my reads suck, if you say i didn't read, if you think I am too scummy, good for you. I'm not in a good position right now, and so I figured it would be best that I wrote this to avoid doing nothing. I'll be back.

[Kovath]

I've made that mistake before for sure -- equivocating bad play with scum play. Most notably the fiasco know as Final Fantasy. Fair point there and I will reread the game so far to see if I missed anything.

To be fair, I don't recall having said that much on Gyrlander, mostly because there wasn't much to review. The others (Spruance, MiniZed, and Never Unlucky) at least had a decent amount of content. In comparison, others that I didn't have much to say about haven't themselves said much of anything -- e.g. Eggy (1 post, RVS), Mesk (mostly fluff), and RLVG (0 posts). Kovath's posts during the early-game were mostly meta discussion with you about how one could ever scumread Gyrlander, which was a policy discussion, if anything. You were mostly prodding the game along and didn't seem to have much controversial that caught my eye.

The vibe is the sense that players who are overly technical with their reads can be using them in order to push for mislynches. Whad was doing that a lot during Day 1 of Return to Normalcy, and in the same way, I feel like Kovath has taken some odd shots -- most notably, the one criticizing me for policy discussion, especially when he himself has done a lot of that earlier on (and in fact, in the same post containing the criticism). The Spruance point seems to be poking me for not addressing the "slip" part of Spruance's explanation, which I asked Spruance to explain in another response.

I'm not suggesting that we go with Firebringer-like gut reads vs. analysis, but I feel the other extreme has problems too because if you go technical enough, you can make anyone seem scummy with semantics. TLDR: Digging around overly deeply with semantics-type arguments in order to portray someone as scummy is somewhat of a scumtell to me.

No... it wasn't. Gyrlander discussion was a part of my early game discussion, I was scumreading him and Calix was townreading him so we discussed it. I'm pretty sure I didn't have more than 5 or so posts specifically focusing on Gyrlander meta and spent a large amount of effort responding to and about other slots like NU and Mesk, followed by the MiniZed episode.

I didn't even state a scumread on you - I just asked why you incorrectly characterized Spruance's argument as an activity one. Perhaps it was in yours, but I asked a simple question about why you acted as if Spruance was just doing a shitread on nothing that might as well have been equal to a scumread on RLVG without considering things from his perspective. You're the one who further pushed it into misrep territory and now into a reactionary suspicion read on me. Yet even now despite this "somewhat of a scumtell" you're not committing to a scumread on me.

I asked you to move from policy into more concrete textual analysis. I had done so of it myself, but not to that extent or to where it formed a significant component of my contribution. You focus on one post - the one where I ask that you more to slot-specific stuff - where I introduced it with an interjection on the lurker discussion as if it is indicative of, or discredits, my own point, to the exclusion of the remainder of my posts. It does not.

[Kovath]

I'd like to apologize to Kovath for not immediately chantingat everyone within my first 15 minutes reading the thread or wasting everyone's time with a giant thread about how one could theoretically scumread Gyrlander. Sorry I let you all down.

I had a concrete reason to scumread Gyrlander, not a "theoretical one." And no, I wasn't scumreading everyone either.

[Calix]

For future reference as I want to comment on those reads later, #278 = MiniZed's giant wallpost of reads.

The main thing that bugs me about it when skimming through it was his attitude and his emotional outbursts.

It reminds me too much of his M-FM play, so it makes it hard for me to trust what he is saying since I was duped by Hanzo last time. And he cites external factors for it which makes it even more irritating because you can't really verify that.

But aside from that gripe, I didn't see many glaring errors in logic or whatnot when reading that. Might actually be town although I will respond in full before giving a definitive judgment.

-vote DarknessB

Since those two are at heads and I doubt they are both on a scum team together.

[Never Unlucky]

Man, Unknown, I really liked your post. I take back saying you weren't a major contributor to town.

I do have some questions/concerns though.

1. Why are you smurfing?

2. I do not agree with one point you made on Kovath. I think that he's actually been drawing attention to useless-LOOKING posts and made some very legitimate points about them (DarknessB's major misrep).

3. Is being defensive AI iyo?

[Never Unlucky]

-vote DarknessB

You still haven't given the reads I asked you c:

[MiniZed]

Man, Unknown, I really liked your post. I take back saying you weren't a major contributor to town.

I do have some questions/concerns though.

1. Why are you smurfing?

2. I do not agree with one point you made on Kovath. I think that he's actually been drawing attention to useless-LOOKING posts and made some very legitimate points about them (DarknessB's major misrep).

3. Is being defensive AI iyo?

1.) Reasons I don't want to explain publicly.

2.) the Darkness v Kovath was during my analysis, so I don't think I covered it.

3.) No. Unusual behaviour shifts would be suspicious for me though.

[Iced_Monopoly]

Half of Day 1 has elapsed.

Please be reminded that there is a post and content requirement to make each day, and players WILL be replaced upon failing to meet these targets.

Minimum 10 post count per day, with posts constituting more than 1 sentence.

Whilst the specific content of a post is not defined, any posts that fail to contribute to the game (and are merely sentences to hit quota) will not be counted. After a quick ISO, players that should attempt to increase their activity are:
@Mesk514 (2/11 substantial posts), and @Gyrlander (2/7 substantial posts).
@Eggy & @RLVG please also take note.

This is the first and only warning to ALL players, unless an acceptable explanation is submitted to me via PM to explain absence/lack of quality, replacements will happen at EoD (of the relevant day) should targets fail to be met.

[Calix]

Actually going to partly comment on the MiniZed post.

Mesk read is nothing that has not been said before. Seems like everyone agrees without a doubt that Mesk feels off this game and that she is pushing her mantra way too hard. Note that she was here earlier and only commented to make a disparaging comment before leaving.

I also agree with the last few lines of the Gyrlander read. Seems like the norm for town!Unknown reads right now.

I think DB was just going along with your trolling, so nothing of note there. Agreed that his comment on Mesk stand out from the consensus about her and skipped over the issues that everyone else had with her. Mesk isn't under a huge amount of pressure so white-knighting is less likely as a possibility.

Bah...some emotional Unknown bullshit which is painful to read. So so similar to Hanzo it's unbelievable.

Narrative for Kovath suggests that you think his early posts sucked and that he got better later on...so the norm for you then? He didn't sheep my vote; I voted second when you entered the thread.

Oh My God You Suck - an apt title for you, I may add. Voting for someone who voted for you just because they voted for you.

Kovath not being particularly pushy/ using his initiative is NAI for him, I would say.

I like how Eggy gets a read but I don't. Guess people really don't give a fuck, huh.

Spoiler : Spruance/ NU reads which I'll talk about later as I disagree on a few points. I am thinking Spruance could be town but I still think NU is a decent candidate for the Neutral, although maybe that is 'too obvious' unless he is attempting to pull some WIFOM antics on us :

Never Unlucky:



Brings up recent game. Most people would try to ignore it and play different in order to win, but the fact that he hasn't shows a bit.



I will say, however, that I do not approve of comparing yourself with how others play. It really DOESN'T WORK. That could be comparing RLVG with PLZLEAVEDUCKK (Random example to prove my point)



Interesting wording. You treat the mistake as more of a scum-slip by being so defensive.



Continuing to bring up the previous game, which I still feel means they are more likely to be town, but this is a very early impression. Also prompts others to contribute, lousy question but none the less.



I don't think this is scum saying this. IMO they wouldn't be so blatant and obvious about questions that could be interpreted as scum asking them, ESPECIALLY since they have the redemption mood.



Slight odd defense of themself by overreacting again to something understandable.

The vote is odd, too. I still feel like scum NU would have hopped on my train.

Town-lean. Like this slot ATM.

Spruance:


Such an odd way to agree with something.



Everyone could assume this, so in reality it just clogs/distracts the thread. Why post this?



I don't mind that he is actually being mature and commenting in a better way, compared to his usual play of "if you don't agree with me I don't like you."



Spoke too soon. This is probably Town, scum wouldn't vote like this to stand out.



I still don't like the "searching for slips" aspect. You can't expect slips to come TO YOU, you have to encourage conversation to GET THEM.



that one scum-read shocks me. I'm shocked you have me as town though, doesn't feel right.



Using the only 'slip' he finds to encourage a lynch. Not a good style, but nonetheless feels town motivated.



You can always find inconsistencies, you just have to put effort in to find them. If they aren't there, then you're probably right, but saying someone always plays like town doesn't work.



What is the value of this post?

Leaning town for Spruance.

I don't care if my reads suck, if you say i didn't read, if you think I am too scummy, good for you. I'm not in a good position right now, and so I figured it would be best that I wrote this to avoid doing nothing. I'll be back.

[Calix]

Iced doesn't fuck around with the warnings. I approve.

[MiniZed]

I thought someone or a few people were voting me, nvm then about that Kovath point.

I also wanted a break, and I didn't want to make the page any longer than it would.

[MiniZed]

Oh, thanks for the OMGUS note. Though, there really was no thought process behind that other then he picked at MattZed, and it's just an RVS vote.

[Calix]

Presently, I read Kovath, Gyrlander, MiniZed, Spruance, Eggy (albeit very weakly) as 5/6 other townies.

Mesk/ DarknessB is a possible scum-team although I have not checked for associations. That soft defense of Mesk stood out to me though.

That just leaves the issue of Never Unlucky/ RLVG with one slot - the Neutral.

[MiniZed]

I'm going to rest. Anything I need to look at before I go?

[Calix]

Nah, I think you are good for now. I'm just going to post a VC in the meanwhile.

• DarknessB (3 [L-3]):
  Never Unlucky, Calix, MiniZed
  

  ---

  Kovath (1 [L-5]):
  Eggy
  

  ---

  MiniZed (2 [L-4]):
  DarknessB, Kovath
  

  ---

  Eggy (1 [L-5]):
  Spruance
  

  ---

  Calix (1 [L-5]):
  Gyrlander

[Gyrlander]

Wow, 10 posts are a lot. I don't really know if I will be able to accomplish that. Well guys, I don't really seem to understand what are you talking right now so I'll just try to ISO someone and say what I think about him. Starting with Unlucky.

[Never Unlucky]

Wow, 10 posts are a lot. I don't really know if I will be able to accomplish that. Well guys, I don't really seem to understand what are you talking right now so I'll just try to ISO someone and say what I think about him. Starting with Unlucky.

You sound so cute xD

[Never Unlucky]

Presently, I read Kovath, Gyrlander, MiniZed, Spruance, Eggy (albeit very weakly) as 5/6 other townies.

Mesk/ DarknessB is a possible scum-team although I have not checked for associations. That soft defense of Mesk stood out to me though.

That just leaves the issue of Never Unlucky/ RLVG with one slot - the Neutral.

I understand where you're coming from with your Neutral read on me. But, seeing as I got lynched D1 as scum in Politico a couple of days ago, why would I base my scum play on WIFOM?

Then again, the answer to this question would be WIFOM too.

[Gyrlander]

You sound so cute xD

Town-read, next one. Minized.

[Calix]

I understand where you're coming from with your Neutral read on me. But, seeing as I got lynched D1 as scum in Politico a couple of days ago, why would I base my scum play on WIFOM?

Then again, the answer to this question would be WIFOM too.

You're getting the hang of this, lol.

Town-read, next one. Minized.

It took you 6 minutes to determine that NU was town? Can you at least tell us why you concluded that?

[Never Unlucky]

Probably along the lines of "he posts a lot".

[Gyrlander]

No, he called me cute.

[Spruance]

Presently, I read Kovath, Gyrlander, MiniZed, Spruance, Eggy (albeit very weakly) as 5/6 other townies.

Mesk/ DarknessB is a possible scum-team although I have not checked for associations. That soft defense of Mesk stood out to me though.

That just leaves the issue of Never Unlucky/ RLVG with one slot - the Neutral.

How about that eggy town read just because I scum read him.