S-FM 196: QT 3.14

[Helz]

Btw. This bothered me

As for banana she knows how I play and she correctly defended me against helz, and now is holding her position well against his comments. Yeah the world where she is pocketing me is there, and I plan to look more into it. I am curious why I am still town read by her after putting helz to L-1. I should be in nobodies town circle after that vote.

All Banana did in the face of the points I made was say that she never gives anyone a 100% pass when I called her out for making plays to pocket players with strong potential of scum motivation and then use a straw man fallacy to deflect my trying to get bigger interactions from her. You have a very low standard of "Holding a position well"..

[Helz]

I will read into it more. Give me a second

[Kovath]

If I was consort that would have been interesting, I would have been able to roleblock the singer, and kill whad that night while timeforce got to track...

What are your thoughts on:

Fire pocketing play, then flips his read to mafia on me after the helz vote, etc.
Banana pocketing me, then remains town on me after the helz vote, etc.

Why do you think they came to different conclusions?

I think that Firebringer and Banana are moving closer together now in their reads of you, but to answer your question about the Helz vote:

Firebringer read you as scum based on the objective ACTION.

Banana read the action itself as null because she included the context? emotion? motivation? included with it.

Not the best analogy, but it's kinda like... murder is bad. But murdering a tyrannical ruler after he kills your family would probably be treated differently. Two different approaches. I personally am more in tune with Banana here.

[Helz]

I will focus on Firebringer then..
I will say Fire has made a few posts in particular that gave me a good feeling about him but as usual when reading him I keep floating the middle ground. Post 241 He backs my poke at you for mapping out multiple days of lynches and pushing for lynches without providing reasoning/reads. The scumtell that draws back to is that town simply want to find scum and eliminate them. Scum want to eliminate a bunch of town and have a much stronger desire to stay alive. This creates incentive for them to attempt to control lynches and one of the easiest ways of doing this is to create a chain of lynches that works in their favor. I believe I have had conversations with Fire in the past about these kinds of plays which is probably his reasoning as he stated here:

I agree heavily with this and its why I am voting PLZLEAVEDUCK right now.

For why Banana did not change her vote? Well I really don't feel like she is putting any effort into this game. I think that lack of reasoning to change the vote played more of a factor for her than reasoning to not change her vote.

[Helz]

@Kovath

If you could straight up kill 1 player right now who would it be and why?

[Kovath]

@Kovath

If you could straight up kill 1 player right now who would it be and why?

At this exact moment I would kill Unknown. His inactivity and play while present are either non-helpful or actually detrimental to the town, not furthering our discussion (which is our only path to town's wincon) and drawing scumreads from that, dividing our attention and efforts. Despite our other reads, if he doesn't pick it up we probably will have no choice but to lynch him, weakening pressure and information generation from. I would describe it as basically that there's a void that keeps sucking in focus from our discussion, because we inevitably go back to Unknown every time in our scumreads.

If we're only based on actual content provided rather than what hasn't been provided, it would probably be Banana. Not seeing enough good content imo from the slot, still haven't gotten a specification on why Banana has flipped from her posts earlier in the day to vote Unknown, referencing again #178 where she says she would rather not lynch either Duck or Unknown today. She said she wants to apply pressure to get a better read, but a stated desire to not lynch weakens pressure.

Only justification I can kinda see is the post prior where she states a preference for Unknown over Duck, don't see why we're restricted to those two though. I think a town read of FB based on laying traps is somewhat suspect, though that's a minor point that only adds to the aforementioned feelings. Also didn't like her post about Day 1 reads often being wrong- Day 1 is most of what we have, so we probably win or lose here.

[Kovath]

Amendment: her comment about Day 1 reads being wrong was in response to the town bloc suggestion. Makes more sense in that context, though I still think for the remainder of the game Day 1 is what we'll be running mainly off of, so those reads, even if wrong, so my original point still holds I think.

On that note: the value of the QTs. This setup revolves around those, obviously, so I'm curious what other people think about how useful / valuable they will be. My personal viewpoint: I feel like though public day chats are overall more beneficial for town, the unique features of this settings can make these QTs valuable. Since the scum don't know their teammates, reading associations is particularly weak for this setup, which is one of the major benefits of a public chat imo; instead, it's basically about finding two different scum. So, QTs are basically 1 on 1s by definition. You can test your reads on the other player without it getting 'tainted' by the input and thought of other players besides the one you're focusing on.

[BananaCucho]

Well I really don't feel like she is putting any effort into this game.

Yeah you can go fuck yourself.

[BananaCucho]

Kovath there's some things I wanna address from you but it'll have to wait til morning.

[Helz]

Yeah you can go fuck yourself.

Let me clarify.

#141
Gives MZ a town read for saying "This reeks of sheep, which town have no incentive tward at this point"
Pushes against pressure on Duckk saying she does not agree with my reasoning followed by voting me
Defends Duck giving him town cred for calling a 1v1

Giving MZ town cred for that post was really out of place. Voting me for not agreeing with my reasoning without any reasoning is also odd and then pulling pressure off Duck and defending him? All questionable actions I do not see coming from a player of your caliber.

#169, #172, #176
She 'kinda' answers 'some' of the questions I asked in post #149. Some of the questions she seems to blow off and the ones she does answer either avoids giving detail on reasoning or just restates what I was questioning in the first place with no clarification. Also gives a 'null to slight town lean' for Unknown

#178
Restates a "Slight town lean" on Unknown while saying 'I don't scum read Duckk for his push on you'

#194
Says she is comfortable town reading Duckk

#264
She responds to my reasoning (216) avoiding my point by simply saying she does not give free passes
She Townreads FireBringer for what she assumed was a very dumb trap

#269, 271
She calls duck putting me at L1 Null with justification

#276
She uses a strawman defense with a hostile tone after I poked her for contributions

#285, 286
Says she scum reads me and town reads too many people; then casts a vote on Unknown stating that he only has 1 vote

I will point out that she had stated him as a town lean twice earlier in the game and chose to vote a player she town reads over a player she scum reads.

#290
I ask her what her read on Unknown is and she states it is 'Mostly Nullish' with no reasoning
(Town for Fire, Duckk and Matt; Scum Lean on me, Null on Unknown and Kovath) The read has apparently changed

#294
When Kovath questions her vote she says her reason is to put more pressure on him so that she can better evaluate him

#298
Town reads Duckk

So what I see here is a pattern of inconsistency in your 'reads'. There is also a habit of giving town cred for the strangest reasons and giving out town cred/defending players 10 times as often as poking players for scummy behavior. There is also an almost blatant desire to avoid providing reasoning in posts. I feel like you are putting almost no effort into your reads based on the odd things you are pointing out; that the positions you are taking are more of hip shot reactions that when questioned about you avoid providing satisfactory answers that would explain your line of thought simply because there was not much of one to begin with. I think you just want to float by until the private chats start.

On a side note don't take any of this personally. Its slot directed

[Calix]

Just to clarify the rule states that players can not post unless they are posting a vote. Does this mean that we can still post content along with the vote or is it restricted to just the vote?

Votes only. No content. Pretend that everyone is a Stump.

I would be careful about people quoting others posts.

I would like to take the opportunity to remind players that the QTs are private chats. Direct quoting of other chats/ linking to other chats is not allowed. (paraphrasing is fine)

This is in place for the same reason that quoting hydra chats is forbidden.

[Helz]

Votes only. No content. Pretend that everyone is a Stump.



I would like to take the opportunity to remind players that the QTs are private chats. Direct quoting of other chats/ linking to other chats is not allowed. (paraphrasing is fine)

This is in place for the same reason that quoting hydra chats is forbidden.

-vote So then this vote is totally acceptable right?

[Helz]

You know...

We can kinda break the QT system by simply putting every post we make into every chat. It will kind of be a pain but it will 'sort of' make a global day chat if everyone does it.

[Calix]

-vote So then this vote is totally acceptable right?

No.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Lol... I'm in bed but had to respond.

The whole point of calix's save is to try this qt format. We should be trying to play the save as intended out of respect for the host and simply pm her about these abuses so she can add rules that keep play within the spirit of the save.

I hope you weren't serious or expecting an answer for your vote question, but in case you were no you can't do that.

Good night.

[Helz]

Yeah. I was just clearing possibilities. Only thing I was semi serious about was the mass posting between chats to simulate a global chat. Theres no way I am the only one who thought about these things. Better to get them out there before someone does something and gets smitten for it

-vote BananaCucho

[Helz]

Oh shit. @Calix
Lol at that new signature.

[Unknown1234]

So as far as I can it seems like when I am on I have been on at different times then all of u, so I apologize but I am not leaving as an opportunity, so far you want me to say something let me know.

As for this current moment

Town:
Helz
MattZed
Kovath

Scum:
PLZLEAVEDUCKK
Firebringer
Bananacucho

I will be around for the most part

[Helz]

So as far as I can it seems like when I am on I have been on at different times then all of u, so I apologize but I am not leaving as an opportunity, so far you want me to say something let me know.

As for this current moment

Town:
Helz
MattZed
Kovath

Scum:
PLZLEAVEDUCKK
Firebringer
Bananacucho

I will be around for the most part

What is it that you find really scummy about Firebringer?

[Unknown1234]

What is it that you find really scummy about Firebringer?

If someone feels like adding a "you do this too" I won't care. Mostly because I have yet to see anything he posts original at all. His first reads list was almost the exact same as duck, he seemed to be clinging to duck, until I called him on it as he makes a joke saying "I'm no one's copy" and then switches votes immediately. He doesn't seem to want to say/do anything right now that would make him stand out, hiding in the shadows somewhat

[Helz]

If you had the chance to check a players exact alignment right now with some kind of host action who would you check and why?

[Unknown1234]

If you had the chance to check a players exact alignment right now with some kind of host action who would you check and why?

I would say Banana. Everyone seems to have doubt on her allignment so I would like to either confirm it or put it away

[Unknown1234]

can you stop? seriously. go away vote some1 else

Okay, so I am going to go back and look for quotes that don't seem right for a town to say, sorry if they are one by one but I am on my phone.

Starting with this quote when MattZed voted up duck. Terrible reaction to pressure considering he's whining to get someone off his back.

[Unknown1234]

OMG EVERYONE IS ACTING SCUMMY.

You know votes are a good thing.

-vote Kovath

Can I have 1 town read pls!

Applying for towns nature of 'sympathy' he is trying to convince people that he is often considered scum and that he 'should' be considered town

[Unknown1234]

unknown and matt. bag em and tag em. Good setup calix, next game?

Normal crap from Duck. But his thinking is not at all logical or something understandable. I'm not sure you even agree with your own thought processing because I still don't see any reason to vote anyone yet.

[Unknown1234]

we are lynching unknown or mattzed today.... i dont need to hear from the afkers lol

Wonderful contribution once again. Sounds exactly like how he played last game as SCUM

[Unknown1234]

Kovath had some seriously bad logic to get at the correct conclusion last game, so keep that in mind.

I don't see what your getting at, Kovaths logic was fine last game. You think his logic is bad? I don't see how yours is any better. Explain this more.

[Firebringer]

If someone feels like adding a "you do this too" I won't care. Mostly because I have yet to see anything he posts original at all. His first reads list was almost the exact same as duck, he seemed to be clinging to duck, until I called him on it as he makes a joke saying "I'm no one's copy" and then switches votes immediately. He doesn't seem to want to say/do anything right now that would make him stand out, hiding in the shadows somewhat

Nothing i have posted is original? WHat?
How can you even say this shit

[Unknown1234]

I think you are just trying to reinforce your vote on him.
I am actually reconsidering my early reads right now.

-unvote

I am here:

Town
PLZLEAVEDUCK
MattZed
Kovath

Scum
Unknown

Not putting someone at L-2 this early though.

We need more people to come in here

Changing your reads every page doesn't do any good, tell us why you put people here

[Unknown1234]

Nothing i have posted is original? WHat?
How can you even say this shit

It's either jokes or almost the exact same as Ducks. If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong.

The only thing I noticed that was different was you thought MattZed was town and Duck didn't, but you had a ton of Null.

[Firebringer]

Changing your reads every page doesn't do any good, tell us why you put people here

So you are saying my reads are all copied.
Okay, want to show proof of this? Put the reads of whoever I am "copying" back to back.

Even if that were true, how have I still not said "anything original"
You have made such an outrageous claim of that.

[Firebringer]

It's either jokes or almost the exact same as Ducks. If I'm wrong, show me I'm wrong.

The only thing I noticed that was different was you thought MattZed was town and Duck didn't, but you had a ton of Null.

No, no, no.
You made the claim.
You have to back it up.

The burden of proof is on you to show us, that what you say is true.

You don't make accusations then say "Hey you, proof I am wrong"
I am not going back to prove your insane claim is wrong, thats wasting my own god damn time.

[Unknown1234]

No, no, no.
You made the claim.
You have to back it up.

The burden of proof is on you to show us, that what you say is true.

You don't make accusations then say "Hey you, proof I am wrong"
I am not going back to prove your insane claim is wrong, thats wasting my own god damn time.

Let's talk about your reads (which I will quote after this post) I've read your reads list, you make few changes and provide no reasoning as to why you feel people have been placed where you put them. However, when you are talking about me I have yet to see something that duck stated that you didn't (except for MattZed accusation and Kovath).

The only difference is that you made a reads list and Duck didn't, however he still stated his opinion.

[Unknown1234]

I am actually leaning on this being scummy day 1 town matt play. Then him being scum.

This is my reads:

Town
MattZed
PLZELEAVEDUCK

Scum
Kovath
Unknown


I am doing good.

Your First reads list. I especially like the "I am doing good" comment, it shows how much your reads are benefiting the town merely because you have an opinion

[Unknown1234]

I think you are just trying to reinforce your vote on him.
I am actually reconsidering my early reads right now.

-unvote

I am here:

Town
PLZLEAVEDUCK
MattZed
Kovath

Scum
Unknown

Not putting someone at L-2 this early though.

We need more people to come in here

Second reads list. I am the only Scum player on your list, yet you didn't vote me here. Why?

[Firebringer]

Okay, just for the sake of my sanity. Can you put the quotes in spoilers, then explain them nunder the spoiler, I can see the spoiler to confirm and it saves space. Also put everything in one post so you aren't spamming the thread?

This would greatly alleviate my morning crankiness at reading this.

[Unknown1234]

Okay, just for the sake of my sanity. Can you put the quotes in spoilers, then explain them nunder the spoiler, I can see the spoiler to confirm and it saves space. Also put everything in one post so you aren't spamming the thread?

This would greatly alleviate my morning crankiness at reading this.

Sorry about the multiple quotes, but I already explained that I'm on my phone so it makes it harder to quote more messages in one post.

[Unknown1234]

You are right. I will post a read on MattZed.



I really am extremely confident that you were lying about your level of certainty on that read. Its impossible to form strong reads from a few 1 line troll posts. Look at back at his posts.

This is what you formed a hardcore scum read with. Look at that from my perspective. I have a little bit of experience as a player and I know that it is totally impossible to get a hard read from that unless there was some kind of secret code passed in there somewhere. I do believe you lied about your read and that is something you should easily be able to recognize from my perspective here.

I did not know that Day chat goes away after D1 when I said that. And I do not put much value in matching lines of thought in this kind of setup. The argument that same perspective = same alignment relates to this situation only if scum has no inclination to scum hunt. They do, there is no difference between them and the town other than their win condition. In normal games Scum is informed and town is uninformed and you can use this gap to scum hunt. That just does not exist here which is a massive difference.
I have every intention of maintaining my position and attempting to force Banana to participate in the game at a higher level.

The last paragraph in this post is commenting on something I didn't say, so I am wondering as to why Helz has turned this on me?? Page 13 Post 258 4th Quote

Point is I didn't say this so why is Helz making up quotes under my name?

[Firebringer]

I am gone for the next 5-6 hours.
I WILL RETURN ONE DAY THOUGH.

Maybe with snacks.

[BananaCucho]

At this exact moment I would kill Unknown. His inactivity and play while present are either non-helpful or actually detrimental to the town, not furthering our discussion (which is our only path to town's wincon) and drawing scumreads from that, dividing our attention and efforts. Despite our other reads, if he doesn't pick it up we probably will have no choice but to lynch him, weakening pressure and information generation from. I would describe it as basically that there's a void that keeps sucking in focus from our discussion, because we inevitably go back to Unknown every time in our scumreads.

If we're only based on actual content provided rather than what hasn't been provided, it would probably be Banana. Not seeing enough good content imo from the slot, still haven't gotten a specification on why Banana has flipped from her posts earlier in the day to vote Unknown, referencing again #178 where she says she would rather not lynch either Duck or Unknown today. She said she wants to apply pressure to get a better read, but a stated desire to not lynch weakens pressure.

Only justification I can kinda see is the post prior where she states a preference for Unknown over Duck, don't see why we're restricted to those two though. I think a town read of FB based on laying traps is somewhat suspect, though that's a minor point that only adds to the aforementioned feelings. Also didn't like her post about Day 1 reads often being wrong- Day 1 is most of what we have, so we probably win or lose here.

When I said I didn't want to lynch Duck or Unknown, I had a town read on Duck and null-to-town lean on Unknown. I wanted to look elsewhere.

But now I have town reads on Fire, MattZed, and Duck, with a scum lean on Helz and was nullish to town on Unknown and null on you. I could have voted you but I don't think that would have gone anywhere, so I voted Unknown as I said to put some pressure on him. If I had to lynch anyone it would be anyone but my three town reads. And Helz isn't going to be lynched so it's time to explore other options.

My town read on Fire is partly due to the traps. Its also partly meta - like I said its easy for me to spot town motivated fire from not town motivated fire early. We have a long history and he's not hard to read.

I mean, anyone can read that recent Fire vs Unknown conversation as Fire more town than Unknown right?

[BananaCucho]

I second the notion that we play the game as Calix intended - in Camp Mafia when people tried to break my mechanics it pissed me off.

[Unknown1234]

When I said I didn't want to lynch Duck or Unknown, I had a town read on Duck and null-to-town lean on Unknown. I wanted to look elsewhere.

But now I have town reads on Fire, MattZed, and Duck, with a scum lean on Helz and was nullish to town on Unknown and null on you. I could have voted you but I don't think that would have gone anywhere, so I voted Unknown as I said to put some pressure on him. If I had to lynch anyone it would be anyone but my three town reads. And Helz isn't going to be lynched so it's time to explore other options.

My town read on Fire is partly due to the traps. Its also partly meta - like I said its easy for me to spot town motivated fire from not town motivated fire early. We have a long history and he's not hard to read.

I mean, anyone can read that recent Fire vs Unknown conversation as Fire more town than Unknown right?

That is not a pro-town comment. Why?

[BananaCucho]

That is not a pro-town comment. Why?

How is it anti town?

[Unknown1234]

How is it anti town?

Because your jumping to conclusions that we are in a battle and almost implying we are not of the same Allignment. Also that's not really answering my question.

[BananaCucho]

Because your jumping to conclusions that we are in a battle and almost implying we are not of the same Allignment. Also that's not really answering my question.

Vs in mafia means you two were going back and forth. You're twisting "this fire vs unknown makes fire look more town than unknown" into something its not.

[Helz]

The last paragraph in this post is commenting on something I didn't say, so I am wondering as to why Helz has turned this on me?? Page 13 Post 258 4th Quote

Point is I didn't say this so why is Helz making up quotes under my name?

I think you either misread this post or quoted the wrong post.. In this post I pushed on Dukk and Banana. Nothing was related to you other than talking about it being impossible to get a hard read on you based on your first few posts..

[Helz]

I would like to say right now that if anyone makes a vote they should explain it in the QT chats.. We should not tolerate players casting votes without explanation. Its going to be much harder to understand the game-state without a global chat and scum could easily use that chaos to sneak in a lynch

[Kovath]

When I said I didn't want to lynch Duck or Unknown, I had a town read on Duck and null-to-town lean on Unknown. I wanted to look elsewhere.

But now I have town reads on Fire, MattZed, and Duck, with a scum lean on Helz and was nullish to town on Unknown and null on you. I could have voted you but I don't think that would have gone anywhere, so I voted Unknown as I said to put some pressure on him. If I had to lynch anyone it would be anyone but my three town reads. And Helz isn't going to be lynched so it's time to explore other options.

My town read on Fire is partly due to the traps. Its also partly meta - like I said its easy for me to spot town motivated fire from not town motivated fire early. We have a long history and he's not hard to read.

I mean, anyone can read that recent Fire vs Unknown conversation as Fire more town than Unknown right?

I'm ok with this. The last comment is the only thing that has me a bit iffy- rather than being framed as a statement, it's formulated as a question that implies and suggests a certain answer, whether or not it that answer is objectively true or not.

[Helz]

I'm ok with this. The last comment is the only thing that has me a bit iffy- rather than being framed as a statement, it's formulated as a question that implies and suggests a certain answer, whether or not it that answer is objectively true or not.

I do not really see one looking more townie than the other in that exchange. Unknown was going through the early portion of the game quoting as he went on and talking about FB in context of those posts. FireBringer 'copying' Duckk is a point that he made around that phase of the game and he just repeated it here which is in context of him reading through those first few posts again and coming to the same conclusion. In contrast Firebringer was offended at the idea of his posts being regurgitated ideas and he responded with some ATE and a bit of unrelated format criticism. If anything I could very 'slightly' say unknown came off more townie in the exchange simply because I can see his mindset and some effort to scum hunt.

But yes, for her to reason that Fire looked more town she must be looking at reactions/tones/meta if anything.

[Kovath]

I do not really see one looking more townie than the other in that exchange. Unknown was going through the early portion of the game quoting as he went on and talking about FB in context of those posts. FireBringer 'copying' Duckk is a point that he made around that phase of the game and he just repeated it here which is in context of him reading through those first few posts again and coming to the same conclusion. In contrast Firebringer was offended at the idea of his posts being regurgitated ideas and he responded with some ATE and a bit of unrelated format criticism. If anything I could very 'slightly' say unknown came off more townie in the exchange simply because I can see his mindset and some effort to scum hunt.

But yes, for her to reason that Fire looked more town she must be looking at reactions/tones/meta if anything.

Meta seems to be a large component of reads on Fire.