Was pretty happy that we picked up early that Hell Frog was neutral and trying to communicate with us It made an interesting team in which I tried to communicate that no, I wasn't bussing tank (Frogs comment of "lol if you and tank are masons) by questioning and doubt casting that read, and that RLVG was our teammate. Made it interesting! We only needed one solid vote away from RLVG last day.
:toad:
Spoiler : O.o :
Anyway
-vote Helz
Helz carried his hydra. We don't know how much Frog did behind the scenes but Helz was the face of that slot all game. I was scum reading Frog pretty hard due to meta and Frog kinda said "duh - I'm scum" and I picked up on that but Helz did the best during chat casting doubt on the right players and picking up on our communication.
:toad:
Spoiler : O.o :
Here are roles plus the original suggestions. HellFrog kind of didn't talk about their role much and I took their "suggestion" as something they only lightly talked about, they were disorganized at beginning trying to setup hydra. Also RLVG only one not suggested a role. I made that one.
Spoiler : Cage :
Spoiler : RLVG :
Spoiler : TDL :
Spoiler : Funcall :
Spoiler : Tank :
Spoiler : Orpzedworlds :
Spoiler : Empathy :
Spoiler : Calette :
Spoiler : HellFrog :
Don't pet growlithe, he will bite you.
I was ready for an incredible game.Originally Posted by Orpz
Spoiler : Orpz FM History :
Shoulda lynched RLVG.
I really liked Spearheading Female Tank's and Calette's and OrpzZedWorld's role card submissions
Well played everyone!
I had a ton of fun this game. First one in a while I can say that I learned a good bit playing. Fun little bits:
-We never used our ability. All our actions were 100% read based. We effectively played as a citizen through the game.
-We did talk about going for a solo win but knew it would be impossible with Calette as scum. If we lynched Calette her rolecard would flip and we would be proven to be full of shit.
-The N0 peek on Calette was kind of an all in play. Extremely early in the game Frog picked up on scum reading Calette and Tank. Later in D1 I modified our read to say Tank was town. We kinda bet the house that Calette was scum on the grounds that it would paint a target on our back if she was not actually scum but would also insulate us from a night kill if she was scum.
-edit
(Also we were legit drinking like crazy through the game. Not sure how it worked out like that but the 'were drunk' thing was never an exaggeration)
Please do not take these the wrong way. One of the reasons I just left staff was that I wanted to help the FM community grow and these notes are just observational feedback on each slot as to how they could do better.
Player specific Notes:
-TDL had us pegged almost the entire game. I think when he was lynched he believed we were town. Maybe the only one that REALLY had us figured out from what I could tell. Props for that. He was my strongest town lead which is why I pushed so hard to lynch him at the end there giving reasoning 'just in case he was scum' but also putting him to L1 after telling scum to hammer. I did not expect Cage to hammer him.. I think the biggest reason he never got traction while pushing on our slot is he never really cut to analysis with reasoning. It felt like gut reads with 'maybe you this' the entire time which were easily deflected. If he was less reactionary to our plays and took time to collect information, lobby for support, and then push us he would have been much more effective. A lot of what I did to mess his actions up was to stay on the offence and attack his hip-shot reasoning.
Funcall- No real notes for the player. The way he was lynched really was terrible though. There should always be some targeted benefit to lynching a slot and that was just nonexistent for all the reasons I stated in the game. It was legit just a bad play by the town although I have to give props to Calette for holding that hammer super town style.
Calette- Pretty good play. You would have to ask Frog what really tipped him off to you being scum super early in the game. The only thing I found really scummy was your reasoning D2. OrpZedWorlds drew out some great points in it in post #1257. I would say you cut to Ad Hominem a little bit too much near the end there. Not because you did it too much but because you did it too much in comparison to your analysis. I find you can get away with 9 kinds of hell as scum as long as your contributions are on par with your aggression. This felt a little out of proportion but you could get away with it because of my "Town peek" on you. If I had died for some reason it would have left you in a very bad position that I doubt you could have gotten out of given your other plays. In a word I feel like you made yourself dependent on another player which was a very big and unnecessary risk.
RLVG- I particularly noticed your post 1292 calling out to scum to back off which made me laugh. I would say the biggest thing that let me know for sure you were scum was your lack of counter aggression vs Cage. You were wayyyy too passive there which did not fit a town perspective at all. If a townie were to get pushed like cage pushed on you I would expect flat out "Hell no you lying scum" as opposed to "Well, maybe there was a witch or maybe this and that" justifying them to be town in your defense. A town reaction is to view the slot pressuring you as scum because you know you are town. I also think that your lack of participation in night chat lead into cage checking you.
Spearheading Female Tank- Straight up, pretty solid play with the exception of the Funcall lynch. I feel like that lynch was your only real bad move this game. You really showed ability to lead the town but never expressed the confidence to do it. If you had taken the reigns and lead the town it could have been a totally different game.
Nicolas Cage- Kind of too much milky middle ground. You pushed RLVG at the end with a damning night peek but you did not have the town cred to pull it off. At the start of your VS situation I was legitimately questioning which of the two of you were scum and that ambiguity allowed me leverage the situation to get TDL lynched. Kinda too much trolling and passive play which resulted in the towns defeat.
Empathy17- Honestly you cut wayyyy too much to out of game stuff. We talked about your play in our hydra chat and quickly decided that regardless of your alignment we should try to pocket you to help our win-con. At the end of the game prior to RLVG's bad defense I still questioned if you could be town or scum but the material that was used to town read you was based off surrounding mechanical information. I really felt like you guys could have jumped into the game a lot more but at the same time I understand your perspective. I kind of feel like if we had not pushed like we had you would have been the D1 lynch. Just because you kept deflecting comments into personal bias and OOG situations. You are a good player when you get in the zone but you get too caught up in that personal nonsense. You need to find a way to break away from that to be effective.
OrpZedWorlds- A lot of bits... Realllllllllly bad teamwork. I very quickly noticed the contradictions in your statements which is a huge scum tell. I have never seen a town hydra flail like you guys did on something simple like 'who scum read this guy.' D1 I was worried that I had legit pushed the hell out of a mafia player but a few things kept me town reading you to the point I kept the pressure relentless. I would assume thats just a result of 'new to hydra' (although I am new to it as well.) The advantage of a hydra is that you 100% know X players are town in your slot and you can use their independent reasoning to triangulate reads on players. I would never let 1 slot push a player the others read as town. With any amount of players in a game you should agree on the push if its a lynch push. One of your slots very early said their push was a 'lynch push' and then contradicted themselves over and over on it. After that when I applied pressure the heads kept pawning off responsibility for the lynch intentions on etch other. This was scummy as hell because it reflected a perspective of 'our slot wanted this guy dead but we don't want to take accountability for it.' Legit- I was kinda playing town D1 and by the time I really had my teeth in you I started to really see you as scum but was so dedicated to the push there was no way I was going to back off.
For your defense this may sound silly but it was way too defensive. You were 100% focused on surviving and so worried about how you fucked up that you pretty much stopped scum hunting. (Please don't take this personally) I allowed you to dictate the subject of your defense and your focus was terrible. You kept trying to manipulate my position to defend yourself which just made your slot look much more scummy. I strongly believe that any player who is legit 'town' should just be honest about why they did what they did. The moment they start lying they get into trouble. If you have reasoning behind your actions and explain that reasoning you will never have an issue without town derping hardcore or scum pushing the lynch.
I will say that I was impressed by MattZed's pushes at the end of the game. #1257 had me a little bit worried but somehow the reasoning fell through the cracks. Everyone always says Matt is lynchbait or whatever (I think this is my 2nd game with him)but I saw huge potential at the end of this game. If you figure out some basic principals and gain the confidence to lead you could do some damage.
Town- Really I felt like there was a massive lack of analysis. Everyone had a PR and seemed to be waiting on that night feedback to help them solve the game. The problem in this situation was that actions had next to no value. Any role could be any alignment and any feedback was unreliable because all roles and traits of roles were unknown. This game really needed to be played like it was a vanilla game using night peeks just to leverage new analysis. I feel like the majority of players straight up walked into the game with the wrong attitude.
So that Funcall lynch was bad. Which I bitched about enough. This is kind of my method of picking a lynch objectively:
1- Measure how sure you are the target is scum. If its scum its an 'ok' lynch
2- Ask yourself what information you gain from lynching that slot. Its not uncommon that I lynch slots I town read simply because I feel like the information gained from the lynch is worth the life of that slot
2a- Analyze who is pushing on the slot with reasoning- You must have reasoning as to why they want the slot to die for its flip to have value in analyzing their alignment. (Pressure players to provide reasoning with their vote, Never let someone vote with no reasoning)
2b- Analyze what mechanical information you gain from the lynch. Say the slot confirmed 4 other slots as town and 1 as scum. It may be worth it to lynch the slot just to get that flip so that information is confirmed.
2c- Weigh these values and present them to the town. Draw out specific situations and its implications (As a Logic tree.) Ask yourself what the implications are if that slot is town, if it is scum. Or if its a player pushing a lynch- what if he is town? what if he is scum? what if he is town and his target is town? what if he is scum and his target is scum? Consider the possibility's and map them out.
If you really consider all the possibilities and map them out with reasoning you can either persuade the town to the correct action (Or as I did in this case) misrepresent the best action in a way you can justify after the lynch.
If anyone has specific questions about their play I will be happy to help to the best of my ability. I am not the best player but I can put you on the right track if nothing else.
All I ask is that you do not try to say "Player is not leading town so they are scum" down the road. I would argue that this game I lead the town into the dirt and it was really frustrating to hear that I was obligated to lead.
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
Yeah, HellFrog did amazing convincing people he was town. When Empathy got a peek on them and saw their role and saw their early play as a crumb for their "peek" on Calette, I thought the game was decided then all they had to do was convince Empathy to vote non town. Was shocked two town were on TDL wagon.
I think Empathy did very well early play recognizing Calette as scum, problem was thinking HellFrog role had to be a town role and nothing else.
Don't pet growlithe, he will bite you.
@Helz , yeah, very good game! The moment you started pushing us, our entire hyrda scumread you hard because we knew you could read better than that and that we had left enough town clues in all of that mess that you shouldn't have been so confident in a scum read. Coordination was a bit of a problem, especially D1, I agree. That's something to fix looking forward.
I was actually drafting the post to pin you to the wall, focusing on how you didn't actually work to stop the D1 lynch, how you were stalling and didn't have anything going on D2, how utterly convenient it was you checked the N1 kill, and how completely weak your reasoning was in support of Empathy being 100% town, something a town in your position shouldn't have been confident in. Alas, though, you had convinced them that you-them-Calette was a town trio. That's the move that sealed the deal; 4v3 is basically impossible for town if they aren't willing to deliberate slowly and be willing to shift any biases they had from earlier in the game, and as a town we didn't do that.
Btw. This legit means nothing related to anything other than some super drunk conversation about representing a fake community named "Big Booty Mafia Bitches" but... I just can't help it : )
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
100% honest-
I was not around to stop that D1 lynch. I came online and found it was all but locked in. If I was town this would have been a bad read.
D2 I felt like I kept pushing my D1 reads. Frog hardly posted and I would have played the same regardless of if I was scum or town.
The N1 kill check was really opportunistic. I had actually built a pretty big logic tree around it waiting on someone to call me out on it which would have gone something like "Picking 3 players would not give us any information and picking 2 players gave us the ability to either create a 1v1 situation off the bat with a '1 is scum' result or confirm 2 players which would be crazy useful." (There was much more I had stacked up for this particular situation to include stuff like 'Why would I claim checking a dead player when I could claim solo checking 1 slot and get away with it; and such that I never used. I legit had 200 words stacked up on the subject) I would point out that this was partially because I was given so much time to prepare. I was able to hand pick my "fake claimed action" and dig through all interactions to find what fit perfectly with crazy justification. If I had been pressured off the bat instead of "This role makes no sense for scum" I may have slipped.
Our reasoning of Empathy being 100% town was a legit slip. We fucked it up a few times but I kept working to draw it back in line with a town perspective. This would have been good for you to hit on
I would really caution players against the whole "This player is not preforming like I feel they are capable of." This kind of reasoning is something I have used in the past and it has never worked for me.
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I still get the impression you would have played D1 differently if you had been town, regardless of being away at a relatively critical time.
My main suspicion was the stalling/refusal to contribute coupled with reads of completely incorrect strength. I consider overconfidence in an experienced player to be a scumtell; that's what I mean by "incorrect strength." You were confirmed scum for me the moment you chose TDL over RLVG, especially after asking Calette publicly which she liked more.
Did you think you'd get a hammer as quickly as you did when you voted TDL?
(Keep in mind this is Helz)
Legit I play D1 as town. I worked off Frogs fast reads to provide the basis for our actions. He identified Calette as scum. Reguardless of that the only other game you can reference on this site of me playing on my main as scum is 'Firebringers bag of goodies' or some game Hypersniper hosted that quickly fell apart. Jump to those but the only things of note is that the Hypersniper game fell apart and the the goodies game I found and almost lynched my teammate D1. I play town as D1 regardless of my role and I like the challenge of identifying scum. The balancing factor in this game was Frog. Without him it would be impossible to tell any difference between my plays D1 (If you are looking for meta bullshit) and with him we did insane things D1 (Im still not sure how he pegged calette off the bat.)
By the time I was voting on TDL vs RLVG it was an end game play. I did just enough analysis to where I could survive if he flipped town but really at that point the game was over..
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
I would say TDL vs RLVG was the game's critical lynch. If, somehow, Empathy could have been persuaded to join the RLVG camp, I think town could probably have turned it around and had another Bag of Goodies. Of course, you guys had Empathy extremely well pocketed, so that basically wouldn't have ever happened in this particular game.
I suppose the "meta" read I had was from Toadette's game we played together where you had a too-late town ISO on me; you warned me after the game that if you were scum you could have just as easily painted me as scum. Once you started doing that at night, I was all "oh, yeah, that's scum Helz doing exactly what scum Helz does."
Did you actually have ISOs prepared, or was it just stalling at that point?
I legit did. I built reads heavy ISO reads on each of the 4 players in the lynch pool I established that I could I have manipulated to my advantage.
I only played 1 game with Toadette as host and I was town in it. I am not sure what you are referencing..
Honestly to be a good player you should forget meta reads. Players use that shit as a crutch to justify their bad reads. Learn how to objectively identify scum regardless of who they are or what the situation is. This is done by learning different perspectives and teaching yourself to understand and empathize with others perspectives.
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
Seriously- Just start understanding the scum perspective and the town perspective in each game you play. You will identify a gap between the two. As the game carries on just watch for that gap..
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
I am referring to a conversation you had after that game about how you would have played it as scum, lol.
I agree; the best reasons for any reads were not meta.
(also, while you're on the quest to make FMs a better place, wanna sign for my Upcoming game?)
I'm going to pop in and take you up on that offer for individual tips if that is still going
I think a lot of players did fall back on meta instead of questioning and pressuring players for more information/ potential slips, or they relied on typically pushy/ aggressive players to do the work for them. A lot of the pushes on us D1 were basically because "Calette is passive" while players like SJ, Funce, Mikecall, etc got passes for their play and would have continued to do so had we not tried to policy-lynch at the last minute.
We can run through hypothetical conversations if you want. Point out exact situations in the game and I will walk you through exactly why I took the positions I did. I can teach you optimal scum plays through that as well as how to identify pro scum plays but honestly the way I play is pretty deep. You would learn a lot more from reading how I identified scum slots/town slots and exactly what logic gaps I identified that let me know they were scum.
I can't sign up for a future game right now but I can do some kinda observer thing with you at some point..
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
Let me show you..
@Calix
I agree and I do not think a single player that scum read you actually had real reason to scum read you. If you felt threatened by those pushes you just need to lock down your ability to argue perspective. To a degree there is nothing you can do if everyone deeps and uses meta bullshit but you can draw out how meta tells are totally unreliable..
(I didn't see a question in here so I ranted on some bullshit)
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
Anyways I need sleep. I have to show up at some bullshit class in a few hours and I actually need to re-write an English essay. (You know its 100% bullshit class when they justify English with some pretense of writing style while every other language teaches basic grammar)
I fucking hate academics. As people. Not as a thing..
Intellectual growth comes from discussions, not arguments. If you are unwilling to change your position and hear the other persons side you are closed minded and wasting your time.
If you can not clearly explain what the other sides reasoning is you can not disagree with their position because you do not understand it.
GG all
Hey everybody, my thoughts on the game are simple
Hell frog played a really good game.
Our hydra was pretty on the mark as far as scum goes i'd say. I had TDL and RLVG pinned,
but Sen would not let go of Calette as stated by his post "we lynch calette tomorrow!"
I'll be honest i lost the will to play after the Funcall lynch because its so dumb to lose that role
because he wasn't at EoD. So paladin took over at N1.
GGWP
"The mammal, the Hippogame Freakus, has approached the thread with his typical entrance about the subpar attitude of neighboring creatures." Calix
Good game, it was a shame I wasnt on by EOD because rl and other things taking up that specific time which could of been used effectively in hammering the lynch. Being honest, if I had survived to d2, I would of actually been a ton more active in my play, but overall, good game.
GG GG...
Wasn't the best setup to play for my first game but... Eh. It certainly was an experience that's for sure.
You can blame me for the hammer btw, I know SuperJack will. :P
Everybody is equally weak on the inside, just that some present their ruins as new castles and become kings –
Deep into that darkness peering, long I stood there, wondering, fearing, doubting, dreaming dreams no mortal ever dared to dream before.
If your dear heart is wounded, my wild heart bleeds with yours.
That was me with the lol hammer by SilverWolf and empathy17 that wasn't a hammer-lol. No one can beat that. Also, hydra slipping is very common on ms if you have multiple games and multiple accts. There's a rule you have to quote out of hydra slips with your hydra for ISO purposes.
@Helz -Great game, great analysis and tips, thanks.
I will say though using OOG stuff is necessary because we come here from another place. It's kind of hard not to. I had Calette as scum but did not think Fire would give a wagon sensor to scum even though you were neutral. I did think and even ask ika if your hydra could be neutral. But even so, I knew you were not mafia with that role. Also, we were mechanically cleared. Scum doesn't claim miller first post. They simply do not and miller is a town role. Upicks are more mechanical based play than not in my experience.
Just got here, and it seems the game is over already. It was a crazy weekend. >_>
Will read it tomorrow and comment then.
I don't even know who won, but gg, everyone.
Done reading.
Whenever someone needs an example of why you don't want IIoA, just link to D2 of this game; we had 2 out of the 3 scum by D1, or at least some 4 of us did, I think Empathy, Cage and TDL were alright with getting Calette, then comes D2 and suddenly everyone flips their reads due to night feedback. That's not how you do it; if someone is scum, they are scum regardless of claims and feedback, and just like I didn't let Calette go after Hell Frog fakeclaimed D1 to try and save them, you don't let scum off the hook after some random feedback, especially in an UPick setup.
I'll give my MVP vote to Hell Frog, since even if I pegged them as scum, they were the ones who saved Calette from a sure lynch, and were able to convince enough players to go their way. Hell, they even got one of our heads to doubt my vote on them.
GG.
https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...98-S-FM-Ladder
Ladder has been updated up to this game! Stay tuned for the final update of the season.
Spoiler : Orpz FM History :