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  1. ISO #51
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Is it possible to add a poll on a save that someone posts in the Setups workshop. Just to see if people are interested in playing or not? It can be viewed by the person making the save and the FM staff to help gauge how players feel about it. Just an idea.
    If there's multiple setups or games in the queue, we can always just vote on the game we'd like to play.

    Condorcet comes to mind. We could run an experiment with Condorcet voting. Condorcet generally makes everyone equally satisfied/content.

    A problem that could arise would be if there were too many games in the setup queue. So if you have like 100 games, and they're each rated from 1 to 100, and the most voted one has a rating of 50, then the people playing it would be... content, I guess, but it would also result in people being more likely to lose interest in the game (it's boring!). I don't really see this being very likely, as I don't think we've ever had more than at most three games in the queue at any one time, but it's still interesting to consider.

    I'm sure we can correct this by adding in another variable - "total amount of time I'm willing to spend playing this game/I will enjoy playing it."
    Last edited by ; January 21st, 2019 at 10:21 AM. Reason: I can't grammar

  2. ISO #52
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    And the thing about setup balancing is that in order to be able to judge such things without playing it first you need to be a good player. And even then it's impossible to foresee everything that could happen.

  3. ISO #53
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Hell, if you were to ask me, the biggest problems with the setups and the queue right now would be:

    a) Bland roleplaying

    b) Boring setups

    c) Setups that are extremely strange and/or imbalanced: Town Godfather comes to mind. I'dn't play that setup again.

    d) Too complex setups. Mod-like setups are the worst in this respect.

    e) There's no direction to the story. It's usually just good guys vs bad guys. I think the most interesting "narrative" lines I've seen were the Lady Gaga "storyline" and the Smiths storyline. The Spirit Wolf setup was also interesting.

    f) I think there's also a bit of an annoying tendency to spam/overpost, coupled with some bad habits players have. It's quite annoying.

    e) Writing problems; not necessarily grammar or anything like that, just that people like to type long, drawled-out messages that have zero punctuation and formatting, which makes it very hard to read anything (and almost makes me want to skip some players' posts).

  4. ISO #54
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    I'm actually surprised people agree Last time I said something like this, it wasn't received very well lol.
    @Firebringer sparked the idea a long time ago rip fb


    I also want to add that, as a player, I wish something could be done about number of posts in games lol. I am definitely guilty for posting a lot myself, but now that i'm busier in life I have come to realize that behavior definitely has a negative effect on a game lol. I'll wake up to like 600 posts and it's like shit there is no way i have time to read all of this lol. I think it would be a lot better there were fewer, but more extensive, posts.

    I'm not entirely sure what exactly can be done to reduce quantity & increase quality of posts. Does anyone else experience this, or am I in the minority? lol

    Some things I've considered are like....
    - prevent double posting via a plugin. Issue with this is that someone can make 2 quality posts in a row, so this is more like a band-aid.
    - set minimum character count to like X characters (maybe 3 sentences or so). This idea I do actually like.. However, if you forget to vote or you misspell your vote, then you can't follow up with just a vote. (Unless we got a new vote system, too).

    Or, maybe there is no problem lol It's hard being old
    More punctuation and better formatting (more paragraphs) would definitely help with post quality.

  5. ISO #55
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Auckmid View Post
    @Marshmallow Marshall

    I don't have a huge interest in the ladder personally because I don't think that you will get an accurate correlation between win rate and player skill until you have an extremely large number of FMs to sample from (larger then what would be realistic for a season) and I see it more of such a fun little side thing. As such, feel free to implement it however you think that the community will most enjoy it.

    Having said that, this is not my first time seeing the proposed point attribution system (Slaol talked about it before his untimely departure) and I have the following issues with it...

    1) There is a massive emphasis on games played, far more so then any performance-rating system that would ever be used for anything at all competitive. If player 1 and player 2 have identical records after 6 games, then player 1 stops playing and player 2 plays another 6 games with the exact same record, player 2 will end up with double the points of player 1. This is fine if you want the emphasis on games played being this large, but terrible from a competitive standpoint.

    2) I understand the desire to heavily reward players who win as neutral killers where the odds are stacked against you. However, the proposed winner reward system being based off of the total number of winners is terrible. It can be assumed that for any given "normal" setup where the main scum faction is a single mafia, the mafia should have an expected win chance equal to that of the town (if this isn't the case, there is a high chance that the game was poorly balanced). Under the proposed system however, a mafia winner would get double to triple the points of a town winner. As such, players who roll mafia quite a lot will over time end up with a massive advantage in point potential, despite not having any disadvantage in theoretical win rate.


    Issue 1 makes the system non-competitive, but is still fine if you want to heavily reward people for participating in every single FM. Issue 2 compromises the entire concept of a fair ladder.


    Proposed alternate system

    The formula for this is going to be a bit more complex, but it does fix the issues mentioned above.

    (1-(C/(C+GP)))*(WR/ExpectedWR)

    C = A constant. Raising it increases the emphasis on games played, lowering decreases. I'll suggest that the value is 2, but this can be modified.

    GP = Number of games played/hosted

    WR = Win rate

    ExpectedWR = Average expected win rate for a player based off of all their roles. This would take a bit of work to standardize win rates. However, if for example it was determined that in a standard townVmafiaVneutralkilling, town and mafia should each have a 45% chance of winning and that neutral killing has a 10% chance of winning, if a player played three games, one as town one as mafia one as NK, their value for this would be (.45 + .45 + .1)/3 = 1/3.

    Then also to illustrate the values for (1-(C/(C+GP))) if C = 2;

    If GP = 1, this equals .33
    If GP = 2, this equals .5
    If GP = 4, this equals .67
    If GP = 6, this equals .75
    If GP = 8, this equals .8
    etc.

    This creates a middle ground where playing games is rewarded while also not making GP the centerpiece of earning points. If you do want GP to be a major centerpiece, you can make C = 1 and it will still be better then the previously proposed system.


    I know that I put quite a lot of effort towards something that I just said I didn't care that much about. However, as I said, Slaol showed me the formula before this and it triggered me quite a bit that he, or anyone else, considered it competitive.
    This reminds me a lot of R6 Siege's ladder formula, which was nigh unbearable. I think I spent more time going back and forth from Bronze to Silver/Gold than I did actually playing the game. It was so annoying.

    Dunno, I think that win rate doesn't mean much. In the sense that a lot more than simply 'skill' comes into play when your team wins a game.

    I don't really like the idea much, but I think we could compare win rates between players and see that it tends to a 50% win rate.

    My guess is that to have a good ranking system, you'd have to include variables such as setup difficulty (kinda similar to the "expected win rate" thing, though it involves a lot more than just that), "general" player skill (like, how do they usually perform), individual impact in the game (their stake in the game), lynch rate (which is itself pretty complex, and might not mean much), mean time of survival in-game, detection rate as scum, "hunch" rate as town, etc etc.
    Last edited by ; January 21st, 2019 at 10:46 AM.

  6. ISO #56
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    I'm guessing the easiest way of finding a reliable formula for "skill" would be to analyse older setups just for these kind of things and see what comes out of it.

  7. ISO #57

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Hell, if you were to ask me, the biggest problems with the setups and the queue right now would be:

    a) Bland roleplaying

    b) Boring setups

    c) Setups that are extremely strange and/or imbalanced: Town Godfather comes to mind. I'dn't play that setup again.

    d) Too complex setups. Mod-like setups are the worst in this respect.

    e) There's no direction to the story. It's usually just good guys vs bad guys. I think the most interesting "narrative" lines I've seen were the Lady Gaga "storyline" and the Smiths storyline. The Spirit Wolf setup was also interesting.

    f) I think there's also a bit of an annoying tendency to spam/overpost, coupled with some bad habits players have. It's quite annoying.

    e) Writing problems; not necessarily grammar or anything like that, just that people like to type long, drawled-out messages that have zero punctuation and formatting, which makes it very hard to read anything (and almost makes me want to skip some players' posts).
    A = E1, at least for the most part. This is up to the Host, though. Roleplay-heavy games are encouraged, and you can ask other people for help to write great roleplay. It's more interesting, although it's not required.

    B.... Well, everyone has a different definition of "boring setups". What comes to fix this, mostly, is the site's growth, which we should aim at because it allows for more games at once, which means that if some people think X setup is boring, they can sign for Y setup instead, and vice versa, and everyone is happy. There's also the fact that a lot of discussion about what is fun and balanced in a mafia setup, and that those discussions should be used by hosts to balance, adapt, and improve their setups (which I can see happening).

    C: There are people who love playing bastard/hidden/anon/cult/whatever setups, and some who hate these. It's, once again, up to the players if they want to get into that, in my opinion.

    D: Power role storms are to avoid, indeed.

    F and E2: That's about the players and their plays, and those only improve over time.... Can't really blame setups/queue or do anything for it that isn't just playing and improving ourselves, unless you have an idea to fix this.
    I definetly agree that formatting needs to be improved, though, along with syntax. Bad general grammar isn't too bad; bad syntax can make posts painful to read.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  8. ISO #58

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    This reminds me a lot of R6 Siege's ladder formula, which was nigh unbearable. I think I spent more time going back and forth from Bronze to Silver/Gold than I did actually playing the game. It was so annoying.

    Dunno, I think that win rate doesn't mean much. In the sense that a lot more than simply 'skill' comes into play when your team wins a game.

    I don't really like the idea much, but I think we could compare win rates between players and see that it tends to a 50% win rate.

    My guess is that to have a good ranking system, you'd have to include variables such as setup difficulty (kinda similar to the "expected win rate" thing, though it involves a lot more than just that), "general" player skill (like, how do they usually perform), individual impact in the game (their stake in the game), lynch rate (which is itself pretty complex, and might not mean much), mean time of survival in-game, detection rate as scum, "hunch" rate as town, etc etc.
    I think that the problem with this is that the nature of a non-boring Mafia site with a great diversity of setups does not allow those "skill level calculations". It's like trying to calculate someone's skill level at life :P

    There are too many factors, and these change too much to be calculated.
    It works for what Auckmid described (I think?), for a very very standard setup, but for more complex setups, it would not.
    Plus, that's for the winrates, but don't forget that Mafia is a team game (partially, at least)! If the only TPR fucks up on D1, it can really harm the town without it being anyone's fault (out of the TPR themselves). It's an issue Heroes of the Storm ladder system has, and it is a big deal.

    On another note, welcome back
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  9. ISO #59

  10. ISO #60

  11. ISO #61

  12. ISO #62

  13. ISO #63

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    I'd say that polling would be a better alternative to doing an outright skip of a setup if there are multiple people looking to host at once. If a setup does not appeal to very many people, it will ultimately get pushed back in the queue in favor for setups that are more appealing to more players. As long as the players are enjoying the setups that are being hosted, that is what ultimately matters most.

    If there aren't a lot of people looking to host at once, I think it's fine to let whoever host, provided that they get appropriate signups. If people are then unhappy with the setups getting hosted, they are more heavily incentivized to bring forward their own setups.

  14. ISO #64

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    any way to vote to skip a setup in the queue?


    because the players just seem to sign up for whatever these days, even shitty setups, gotta wait an eternity for a decent setup - have yet to see a setup not get full signs. and setup workshop is a joke with all these hidden setups getting approved.
    I am against this.

    Why the current system wouldn't be significatively improved: The setup approval system is here to make sure setups are playable, that they won't fail (because of loopholes for example), and that they are interesting to play. This doesn't mean that some members won't dislike a setup; it means that it is enjoyable for enough people to get played, else people wouldn't sign for the games.

    Everyone has a different definition of "shitty setup" because of different tastes, with a common ground on the matter. This common ground is the exact thing that is filtered by the approval system.

    About hidden setups, some are reviewed and/or created by staff. Some others are experimental, which means that if you don't like it, you don't sign for that one and you play the non-experimental game. And if you don't like any, it's probably time to step in and make one yourself/get involved in someone's setup to make it something you consider fun, and that's the strenght of the Workshop.


    Why skipping setups would be bad: It's telling someone "Your setup is bad", basically, and it is not useful. If a setup is deemed that bad by the entire community, it just won't fill and will get put down. Fortunately, we don't have to do this, since people play the setups and enjoy them. As I repeated over and over in this thread, if you think something in a setup should change and want to get involved in the community, you should get into the setup workshop and comment, it's always welcomed!



    Auckmid, about your poll idea, I don't think it's bad, but I don't see how it is better than just not signing for setups that you don't find interesting, even after having talked about it in the setup thread. It feels like over-complicating things; plus, if people won't take time to help building setups, I don't know if they will take time to vote on polls.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  15. ISO #65

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Auckmid, about your poll idea, I don't think it's bad, but I don't see how it is better than just not signing for setups that you don't find interesting, even after having talked about it in the setup thread. It feels like over-complicating things; plus, if people won't take time to help building setups, I don't know if they will take time to vote on polls.
    Polling for games isn't necessarily something I feel that strongly about. However:

    1) Just because people sign up for a game doesn't mean that they really enjoy the setup. It sometimes means that they see playing in the setup as preferable to not playing at all. Additionally, encouraging people not to sign up for setups that they don't love can start a bit of toxic mentality of wanting to see signups fail for people. Polling averts that.
    2) I HEAVILY disagree with the statement that because most people don't help to build setups that most people will not vote in polls. Even if you don't particularly like the setup, coming up with how to articulate that criticism can be hard for a lot of people. Voting for which setup you like more is extremely easy for most people.

  16. ISO #66

  17. ISO #67

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    I agree with the sentiment that "Voting for setups" is "good" on the surface, but is it really that different than signs?

    Assuming people can vote for more than one poll option at a time, how is that any different than signing for different setups? Signing and voting function as the same thing. The only difference in this poll for setups is that it's in one organized place.

    I assume if setup A is posted before setup B, but setup B fills faster, setup B would be next to play, right?...

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  18. ISO #68

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    I agree with the sentiment that "Voting for setups" is "good" on the surface, but is it really that different than signs?

    Assuming people can vote for more than one poll option at a time, how is that any different than signing for different setups? Signing and voting function as the same thing. The only difference in this poll for setups is that it's in one organized place.

    I assume if setup A is posted before setup B, but setup B fills faster, setup B would be next to play, right?...
    I wouldn't mind this except that people hosting don't post their setups in the signups page if there is already one there. They wait for it to end or be near ending. Thus only 1 game to chose from and it becomes sign for whatever or don't play mentality.

  19. ISO #69
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    But then there's the concern that none of the setups fill up.
    I dunno, this setup queue thing has been the standard on this site for a long time. Why change it? It's worked well thus far.

  20. ISO #70

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    I agree with the sentiment that "Voting for setups" is "good" on the surface, but is it really that different than signs?

    Assuming people can vote for more than one poll option at a time, how is that any different than signing for different setups? Signing and voting function as the same thing. The only difference in this poll for setups is that it's in one organized place.

    I assume if setup A is posted before setup B, but setup B fills faster, setup B would be next to play, right?...
    That's what I meant, but in better words.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    I wouldn't mind this except that people hosting don't post their setups in the signups page if there is already one there. They wait for it to end or be near ending. Thus only 1 game to chose from and it becomes sign for whatever or don't play mentality.
    No, people post signups even when there's one ongoing now, because the community grew and grows (and will grow). As Mag said, if too many people were to post signups at the same time, there would be an issue of no filling.

    The current signups subforum literally proves you wrong, and this since some weeks now.


    A big issue I see in all suggestions here is that people who want to change the system are wanting to change it too fast. If you want a change to a system that works very well but requires a large playerbase, you can't just say "put it in place and the playerbase will follow". The site would drop, or at least become less fun.

    So, Damus, your accusations are baseless.
    -vote Damus_Graves
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  21. ISO #71

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    But then there's the concern that none of the setups fill up.
    I dunno, this setup queue thing has been the standard on this site for a long time. Why change it? It's worked well thus far.
    Exactly. There are ways to improve the current system, without throwing it into the garbage pin, and that's what I'd like to see more here.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by oliverz144 View Post
    it looks like many, e.g. MM and lag, suffered under the influence of paopan. However there is a victim: frinckles. He left the path of rationality and fully dived into the parallel reality of baby shark, king shark, and soviet union pizzas.
    Spoiler : The meaning of life :

  22. ISO #72

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    That's what I meant, but in better words.


    No, people post signups even when there's one ongoing now, because the community grew and grows (and will grow). As Mag said, if too many people were to post signups at the same time, there would be an issue of no filling.

    The current signups subforum literally proves you wrong, and this since some weeks now.


    A big issue I see in all suggestions here is that people who want to change the system are wanting to change it too fast. If you want a change to a system that works very well but requires a large playerbase, you can't just say "put it in place and the playerbase will follow". The site would drop, or at least become less fun.

    So, Damus, your accusations are baseless.
    -vote Damus_Graves
    Funny enough, I see your accusations as baseless lol you are just assuming it wont work without a large player base, but I dont see what the difference would be. Games will still be signed for, the only difference is there will occasionally be a larger pool of games to sign for. And if there are no signups, then FM staff should step in an help the section by hosting a game or finding a host.
    You haven't been around long enough to see how the queue is busted against both players and hosts. Nothing kills site activity more then 5 games in a row that no one wanted to play, while the hosts waiting for a month get bored of waiting and are no longer interested in hosting lol

    Why would there be no filling if there were more signups?? I dont understand that logic. And past the first week, it's not like the signup subforum would have a large amount of threads. You say we are too small for a system like that, but the small community will also create less signups than a large community, making the system manageable for any size of community.

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  23. ISO #73

  24. ISO #74

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    MM, you would be content with nothing changing it seems. But legit there is only 1 person posting in here other than you that thinks the system is a good system lol. Doesnt that tell you something?

    Maybe you can tell us how we can improve the current system? You suggested we build on it, but dont really offer suggestions on that.

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  25. ISO #75

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    MM, you would be content with nothing changing it seems. But legit there is only 1 person posting in here other than you that thinks the system is a good system lol. Doesnt that tell you something?

    Maybe you can tell us how we can improve the current system? You suggested we build on it, but dont really offer suggestions on that.
    Crypt I had deleted my post with ... becuse well to be honest you make very Vaild points. Nothing I can disagree with. A helpful solution is once it is marked ready for review why not have a requirement to add a poll in there setup like I did in Timmy town. https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...849-Timmy-Town This would truly allow players to express interest levels with out fear of being called out for it. To advoid the play drop from boring saves. As you put it. If you are afraid of polls then don’t post a save.
    Last edited by Mike; January 24th, 2019 at 08:28 AM.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  26. ISO #76
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    I agree with the sentiment that "Voting for setups" is "good" on the surface, but is it really that different than signs?

    Assuming people can vote for more than one poll option at a time, how is that any different than signing for different setups? Signing and voting function as the same thing. The only difference in this poll for setups is that it's in one organized place.

    I assume if setup A is posted before setup B, but setup B fills faster, setup B would be next to play, right?...
    I think the gripe here was against the FM queue, and not the current system, which is as you just described it.

    Edit: Never mind. The queue is still in place.

    I don't really see anything wrong with having a queue. Like I said we could always vote on the setup order, although that may not always work since some people might sign for one and some might not.

    A setup ranking system wouldn't really work well either for anything other than the worst setups, for reasons already cited.

    The only thing I can think of right now is that we could make the decision-to-sign process somewhat more organised and simpler, by putting setups into certain categories like, "Hidden", "Classic", "Powerfest", "Bastard", "Nightless", by adding some prefixes to the "Ongoing Forum Mafia Games" and "Signups" subforums

    it is fundamentally up to the hosts whether people will sign or not though. if a game is particularly interesting, hosts can simply negotiate setup order amongst themselves. Obviously they would have take people's opinions into account as well.
    Last edited by ; January 24th, 2019 at 11:26 AM.

  27. ISO #77

  28. ISO #78

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    So currently there are 5-6 people who want to host games. so that would be 6 games sitting there for signups. we have about 10-20 people who actively play, so approx 30% of the community would have a signup open. What happens if this community grows and we have 10-20+ signups sitting there? lol we would definitely need a cap on maximum amount of signups aloud, which would then reopen the queue system but just allowing more signups to be open at once.

    The main problem I see with this system is that, lets say someones game doesn't fill until 2-3 games go before it. That would leave the host having to re-contact and verify the people who signed early when it was released to make sure they still want to play (or are even there); Thus delaying the game further waiting for all their responses. on the other side, if a game fills thats been left up for a few weeks there is a possibility the host will now be busy, so the game would have to be cancelled. With a community this small I do not see this type of system being beneficial at all. If anything, the site needs to be cleaned up and reworked/updated to even bring in more people before we start trying to change core systems that have been in place for awhile, and have been working.

    A counter concern that this seems to be trying to address is not wanting multiple games hosted in a row that people do not want to play. That is where knowing the community (and being this small, it's not too hard) comes into play. The main reason people currently play is because of who we are playing with. We have developed a core group of players that will play pretty much any setup because we enjoy to play with each other. Mafia is a social game more than a mechanical game, so I think that needs to be the prime focus on how the systems work. If the site grows drastically, yes then maybe some systems should get tweaked, but usually that is addressed as it grows. Hell, we play nightless all citizen setups haha I don't think you can get much more dull than that, but yet they are incredibly fun

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  29. ISO #79

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    MM, you would be content with nothing changing it seems. But legit there is only 1 person posting in here other than you that thinks the system is a good system lol. Doesnt that tell you something?

    Maybe you can tell us how we can improve the current system? You suggested we build on it, but dont really offer suggestions on that.
    Yes. Focus on fixing/cleaning up the website so new people will want to come play here. Then addressing a system based off the communities needs is what the best course of action would be. Rather than trying to "plan" for that to happen and predict what would be best. Doin things backwards here! xD
    Last edited by Distorted; January 24th, 2019 at 12:06 PM.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  30. ISO #80

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Yes. Focus on fixing/cleaning up the website so new people will want to come play here. Then addressing a system based off the communities needs is what the best course of action would be. Rather than trying to "plan" for that to happen and predict what would be best. Doin things backwards here! xD
    That's so vague, though. What exactly needs to be fixed to encourage new users? We need suggestions here lol

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  31. ISO #81

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    That's so vague, though. What exactly needs to be fixed to encourage new users? We need suggestions here lol
    Sent this to Voss awhile ago and also went into some detailed conversation about each points. also I talked with superjack about a lot of this and we were going to go forward with it. There is a lot more but that requires more digging for posts lol so here is just a quick post of it


    Site Changes Phase 1
    - Clean up the homepage, removing staff names from every damn line and finding a more condensed way to display them (such as just on the bottom of each section)
    - Implement a new ISO system, one closely replicating the one used on MafiaUniverse.
    - Implement a 'clock overlay' that can be toggled on and off on the top left corner during active games. the timer countdown is controlled by the Host/thread creator and can be edited at any time.
    __optional : players can toggle it on or off at any time (just on their UI)
    -Clean up the staff. There does not need to be 50 staff members with 30 different colors all over the place. clear outlines of who is the current staff.

    phase 2
    - Start to declutter some of the threads. There is like 500 things stickied on each of the individual topics, a lot irrelevant now.
    - Clean up all these tutorials, how to's, do this, do that, threads. implement a clean thread of useful tutorials.
    - Create an easy to find section for rules.
    - Update the wiki and terminology sections
    - Create a feeling of a separate section in each category. right now with the current system, this is something that sc2 lacks that sc1 had. ill try to explain this better...


    : How moderation needs to be managed
    There needs to be a careful balance to authority and punishment. Punishment should not be done publicly (unless extreme circumstances). a moderators presence alone can present issues, but usually only if their authority is present with them. so having moderation done in the background as much as possible is incredibly important. Flexing power and having fun with ur abilities will make people jealous, leading to hate towards the staff. This is something that happens in a lot of communities, sc2mafia was 1 of those. It was a hard line to balance in the discord as well... However, on the other end a lack of moderation or moderators gives the image the site is neglected and nobody is watching out for it. This will kill a site just as fast as over-moderation. its a careful balance.
    Last edited by Distorted; January 24th, 2019 at 12:24 PM.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  32. ISO #82

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Sent this to Voss awhile ago and also went into some detailed conversation about each points. also I talked with superjack about a lot of this and we were going to go forward with it. There is a lot more but that requires more digging for posts lol so here is just a quick post of it


    Site Changes Phase 1
    - Clean up the homepage, removing staff names from every damn line and finding a more condensed way to display them (such as just on the bottom of each section)
    - Implement a new ISO system, one closely replicating the one used on MafiaUniverse.
    - Implement a 'clock overlay' that can be toggled on and off on the top left corner during active games. the timer countdown is controlled by the Host/thread creator and can be edited at any time.
    __optional : players can toggle it on or off at any time (just on their UI)
    -Clean up the staff. There does not need to be 50 staff members with 30 different colors all over the place. clear outlines of who is the current staff.

    phase 2
    - Start to declutter some of the threads. There is like 500 things stickied on each of the individual topics, a lot irrelevant now.
    - Clean up all these tutorials, how to's, do this, do that, threads. implement a clean thread of useful tutorials.
    - Create an easy to find section for rules.
    - Update the wiki and terminology sections
    - Create a feeling of a separate section in each category. right now with the current system, this is something that sc2 lacks that sc1 had. ill try to explain this better...


    : How moderation needs to be managed
    There needs to be a careful balance to authority and punishment. Punishment should not be done publicly (unless extreme circumstances). a moderators presence alone can present issues, but usually only if their authority is present with them. so having moderation done in the background as much as possible is incredibly important. Flexing power and having fun with ur abilities will make people jealous, leading to hate towards the staff. This is something that happens in a lot of communities, sc2mafia was 1 of those. It was a hard line to balance in the discord as well...
    Changing systems and functions within how the site works would come AFTER all of this. This is really mandatory steps that need to be taken in order for the site to start getting new members that want to stay.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  33. ISO #83

  34. ISO #84

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Also, we need to remove the staffs ability to see "invisible users" or just remove the "currently browsing" in the active FM games section. Half the peopel are able to see invisible users (staff) while others cannot. That right there gives more info to staff than to regular players.
    This should be gone already.
    Also you smod, unstick outdated shit lol

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  35. ISO #85

  36. ISO #86

  37. ISO #87

  38. ISO #88

  39. ISO #89

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Sent this to Voss awhile ago and also went into some detailed conversation about each points. also I talked with superjack about a lot of this and we were going to go forward with it. There is a lot more but that requires more digging for posts lol so here is just a quick post of it


    Site Changes Phase 1
    - Clean up the homepage, removing staff names from every damn line and finding a more condensed way to display them (such as just on the bottom of each section)
    - Implement a new ISO system, one closely replicating the one used on MafiaUniverse.
    - Implement a 'clock overlay' that can be toggled on and off on the top left corner during active games. the timer countdown is controlled by the Host/thread creator and can be edited at any time.
    __optional : players can toggle it on or off at any time (just on their UI)
    -Clean up the staff. There does not need to be 50 staff members with 30 different colors all over the place. clear outlines of who is the current staff.

    phase 2
    - Start to declutter some of the threads. There is like 500 things stickied on each of the individual topics, a lot irrelevant now.
    - Clean up all these tutorials, how to's, do this, do that, threads. implement a clean thread of useful tutorials.
    - Create an easy to find section for rules.
    - Update the wiki and terminology sections
    - Create a feeling of a separate section in each category. right now with the current system, this is something that sc2 lacks that sc1 had. ill try to explain this better...


    : How moderation needs to be managed
    There needs to be a careful balance to authority and punishment. Punishment should not be done publicly (unless extreme circumstances). a moderators presence alone can present issues, but usually only if their authority is present with them. so having moderation done in the background as much as possible is incredibly important. Flexing power and having fun with ur abilities will make people jealous, leading to hate towards the staff. This is something that happens in a lot of communities, sc2mafia was 1 of those. It was a hard line to balance in the discord as well... However, on the other end a lack of moderation or moderators gives the image the site is neglected and nobody is watching out for it. This will kill a site just as fast as over-moderation. its a careful balance.
    Wow, If I did not know better I would say you took one of my Management Classes I teach. This is all A+ Material.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  40. ISO #90

  41. ISO #91
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Negative rep incoming

  42. ISO #92

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Negative rep incoming
    Smh you didn't read distorted's post

    How moderation needs to be managed

    There needs to be a careful balance to authority and punishment. Punishment should not be done publicly (unless extreme circumstances). a moderators presence alone can present issues, but usually only if their authority is present with them. so having moderation done in the background as much as possible is incredibly important. Flexing power and having fun with ur abilities will make people jealous, leading to hate towards the staff. This is something that happens in a lot of communities, sc2mafia was 1 of those. It was a hard line to balance in the discord as well... However, on the other end a lack of moderation or moderators gives the image the site is neglected and nobody is watching out for it. This will kill a site just as fast as over-moderation. its a careful balance.

    Ez to see that Mike didn't teach you

  43. ISO #93

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    So currently there are 5-6 people who want to host games. so that would be 6 games sitting there for signups. we have about 10-20 people who actively play, so approx 30% of the community would have a signup open. What happens if this community grows and we have 10-20+ signups sitting there? lol we would definitely need a cap on maximum amount of signups aloud, which would then reopen the queue system but just allowing more signups to be open at once.

    The main problem I see with this system is that, lets say someones game doesn't fill until 2-3 games go before it. That would leave the host having to re-contact and verify the people who signed early when it was released to make sure they still want to play (or are even there); Thus delaying the game further waiting for all their responses. on the other side, if a game fills thats been left up for a few weeks there is a possibility the host will now be busy, so the game would have to be cancelled. With a community this small I do not see this type of system being beneficial at all. If anything, the site needs to be cleaned up and reworked/updated to even bring in more people before we start trying to change core systems that have been in place for awhile, and have been working.

    A counter concern that this seems to be trying to address is not wanting multiple games hosted in a row that people do not want to play. That is where knowing the community (and being this small, it's not too hard) comes into play. The main reason people currently play is because of who we are playing with. We have developed a core group of players that will play pretty much any setup because we enjoy to play with each other. Mafia is a social game more than a mechanical game, so I think that needs to be the prime focus on how the systems work. If the site grows drastically, yes then maybe some systems should get tweaked, but usually that is addressed as it grows. Hell, we play nightless all citizen setups haha I don't think you can get much more dull than that, but yet they are incredibly fun
    Isn't your example the whole point we are trying to say? If the game doesn't fill then maybe it's because there is little interest in playing that game. Current system forces us to play it even if we don't like it - thus why i play on other sites instead of on this site, which is the problem everyone seems to want to fix: players leaving the site.

  44. ISO #94

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Isn't your example the whole point we are trying to say? If the game doesn't fill then maybe it's because there is little interest in playing that game. Current system forces us to play it even if we don't like it - thus why i play on other sites instead of on this site, which is the problem everyone seems to want to fix: players leaving the site.
    Read the last paragraph. and please show a setup that no1 wants to play, havnt found 1 in the 2 years being here yet. Other than naz refusing to play cult setups xD

    You are speculating for a future event like it is a present issue. we usually have 1-2 signups running right now, yes? we actually had 3 because the large FM game is still getting signatures as well. allowing 10+ signups to happen at once is just a mess, especially with only 15-20 people actively playing.

    I am pretty sure people were not leaving the site because of a "hosting queue" for FM games =P Once again, Mafia is a social game. The most growth will be between the connections people make through the games - not the games themself.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  45. ISO #95

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Read the last paragraph. and please show a setup that no1 wants to play, havnt found 1 in the 2 years being here yet. Other than naz refusing to play cult setups xD

    You are speculating for a future event like it is a present issue. we usually have 1-2 signups running right now, yes? we actually had 3 because the large FM game is still getting signatures as well. allowing 10+ signups to happen at once is just a mess, especially with only 15-20 people actively playing.

    I am pretty sure people were not leaving the site because of a "hosting queue" for FM games =P Once again, Mafia is a social game. The most growth will be between the connections people make through the games - not the games themself.
    Personally, I have signed for more games than I can count than I actually wanted to play on this site. I either signed because the host needed help, because I wanted to get the game moving so I could either host or sign for a game I wanted play. After completing these games, I will say that there are a lot that I wish I didn't play lol. Sure, some I still had fun in, but it really drained me to force myself to participate. You're right that Mafia is a social game, but it is still 100% possible to hate a game entirely because of a host &/or setup lol. You make it seem like it's impossible not to enjoy a game.

    The issue is this site is based on a TPR heavy game (Sc2 Mafia), so players gravitate away from vanilla setups. Hell, a good chunk of players who come through here don't even want to try if they roll Citizen lol.


    You really think that there would ever be 10+ signups? Hyperbole I hope? lol. Maybe the moment the rules change, but I don't think 10+ open signups would continue after a few games get going.
    I also think that a strict moderation of closing signups threads past x days would suffice in pruning and maintaining a clean & healthy signup subforum.

    You're right that no one has likely left due to the queue. However, I can tell you as a FM Moderator for many years you see that it is definitely a flawed system. And as a Host, the queue is so discouraging. Regardless of what we decide on as a best route, the queue should be eviscerated lol. That's just my opinion, though.



    I'd love to hear as many ideas as possible. The goal here isn't to just change the system and hope it works; it's to try to be innovative and come up with an idea that best suits the community.

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  46. ISO #96

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Voting will probably result in the same meh setups being favoured over the more interesting setups since most people here gravitate to certain setups already. Direct democracy gives players like light_yagami to have influence on deciding what is a good setup.

    What about FM staff pool some tried and tested FM's from the workshop, maybe some that look good on paper but never got tried. Have a pool of players that volunteer to be hosts that can rotate between themselves each game to ensure they aren't just stuck perma hosting. Then have the players vote from the pool which setup gets played. I'd rather have informed people choosing the potential games than just waiting for a decent setup to be offered or reluctantly sign a meh setup just because there is nothing else.

  47. ISO #97

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    So what setups that has been played in the last 10 setups have been meh setups? I will be. Honest as a player I have enjoyed them all. But I do not speak for others so that is why I am asking what setups have been meh. If the hosts don’t know it can’t be fixed.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  48. ISO #98

  49. ISO #99

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Maybe Cryptonic can give some examples of some 'meh' game's he's played.

    Also, there's a lot of speculation on what can go wrong if we change, but none of it's tried and true. I'm usually one for temporary change to see what shakes out. If we change something and it sucks, we can always switch back. Call it a one (or two or three) month trial or something.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  50. ISO #100

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    I was the one who said meh setups and it was directed at a handful of games over the past year. Most notably the flavourless TPR overloaded setups. When games were on average played once or twice a month (until recently with old names coming back in the past 3 or so months) the wait time for a decent setup was painful. I'm sure other people will say they enjoyed them all but I am sure they would also enjoy more balanced, traditional and interesting setups being hand picked by people that know what they are doing.

    To expand on what I said since grass root setups would be unplayable... rotate between the pool of staff picked FM games with a setup someone here wants to host. Fun game, normal game, fun game, etc.

    If you want a visual representation of what I mean go browse the archived FM's and compare the TPR overload from before and after 2018.

    I'd also like Anon accounts to become more regular.

 

 

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