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  1. ISO #1

  2. ISO #2

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    I'm looking to start another one. Just some questions.
    7 or 9 player setup?
    What improvements can be made from last game?
    - Depends on how much support you get.
    - Have replacements on hand Jokes aside, you should make sure you have some backups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orpz View Post
    Why'd you leave out the sun emoji? I think it creates a huge sense of tone that is critical for the interpretation of the chat.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM Romeo View Post
    Go fuck yourself in the cucho.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed
    Your accent has ruined medieval fantasy films.

  3. ISO #3

  4. ISO #4

  5. ISO #5

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    He had
    Is likkle Isaloser joining in this time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Orpz View Post
    Why'd you leave out the sun emoji? I think it creates a huge sense of tone that is critical for the interpretation of the chat.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM Romeo View Post
    Go fuck yourself in the cucho.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed
    Your accent has ruined medieval fantasy films.

  6. ISO #6

    Re: Next starter game.

    I think the best way for this community to grow is to make a circular newbie (or as you call it starter) games thread with Matrix 6 setup.

    You may let 3 more experienced people to play in each game (not limiting them to be town- setup must stay unbreakable) just to show newbies how stuff are happening here. Thats a simpler method to apply mentorship. this way even if the players lose to a very good experienced scum team they will learn so many stuff and you may run this more frequently.

    I completly support this and will help you out in anyway you want.

  7. ISO #7

  8. ISO #8

  9. ISO #9

    Re: Next starter game.

    I think the "newbie game with experienced players in it" idea Frozen is proposing should work.

    For the record, I don't like Matrix6 as a setup. It's a bit swingy, with town having more of a disadvantage in the detective setups vs. the sheriff setups. Also seems to have confused some people last game as to how it works.

    One thing to improve from last time is having replacements on standby; these don't need to be newbies, and probably should be the mentors frankly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrow View Post
    What. You got me. Stop unvoting and stretch my neck, dammit.

  10. ISO #10

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    I think the best way for this community to grow is to make a circular newbie (or as you call it starter) games thread with Matrix 6 setup.

    You may let 3 more experienced people to play in each game (not limiting them to be town- setup must stay unbreakable) just to show newbies how stuff are happening here. Thats a simpler method to apply mentorship. this way even if the players lose to a very good experienced scum team they will learn so many stuff and you may run this more frequently.

    I completly support this and will help you out in anyway you want.
    I understand Mafiascum goes with the "experienced player" concept in beginner games, but I'm not sure that's the mechanic we should be using here. From observing some of those games and talking to other players, I feel like that dynamic is a bit awkward and leads to sheeping of those players. I'd rather have the beginners take the volition to make things happen on their own (or not and see why that's bad) versus relying on three players who know what they're doing. I think that a well-run mentor program seems like a better option for our site in terms of the pureness of the experience for beginner players.

  11. ISO #11

    Re: Next starter game.

    Have a host that actually cares about the game would help.

    Delaying the EOD post that would literally take less than 3 minutes to write/copy for 24 hours or just ignoring when town loses because a player is afk 2 out of 3 days isn't what I'd call doing a good job as host.

    I also got the impression that most of the mentors didn't help out enough - Mesk for example didn't even get the setup and that's something you should discuss with your mentor imo. Encourage the players and mentors to interact with each other during the game.

    And make sure that all the players are newbies - Panda did have quite some experience and I think if she had been scum (and had actually participated in the game), town really wouldn't have had a chance.

  12. ISO #12

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed View Post
    I think the "newbie game with experienced players in it" idea Frozen is proposing should work.

    For the record, I don't like Matrix6 as a setup. It's a bit swingy, with town having more of a disadvantage in the detective setups vs. the sheriff setups. Also seems to have confused some people last game as to how it works.

    One thing to improve from last time is having replacements on standby; these don't need to be newbies, and probably should be the mentors frankly.
    I think trying out the next game with 2-3 experienced players would be a decent experiment, just to see how people take to it. No reason for us to only use one mentoring path.
    @SuperJack , I can link you to other basic 7-9 Player setups if you get a demand for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orpz View Post
    Why'd you leave out the sun emoji? I think it creates a huge sense of tone that is critical for the interpretation of the chat.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM Romeo View Post
    Go fuck yourself in the cucho.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed
    Your accent has ruined medieval fantasy films.

  13. ISO #13

  14. ISO #14

    Re: Next starter game.

    The point is there shouldn't be a god in game. thats why they add 3 to make sure 1 of the experianced players are town. Their existansce inside the game make the newbie slots to feel their on their own. The hydra mentorship is good but thats making newbies shipping more experianced. and the experienced people will be more involved in game which help newbies to see how this thing must be done.

    everything has its pros and cons but if you want it to be more frequently with a happily mentorship system (which is not bothering your mentors becuase its like a burden to play a game without being in it over and over again) and if you want newbies to see how mentors actually interact including more experianced inside the game is beneficial.

    But as you said the burden of proficiency or sheeping might be advertised which is completly on the mentors in the game (as one of them is town obviously)

  15. ISO #15

    Re: Next starter game.

    Experienced players is a terrible idea which many people who have tried out MS beginners games hate. Good luck to them if Calix were one of them and rolled scum. It'd be a game of sheeping the loud veteran without any thought. It's a massive conflict of interest to be playing in a game with your own wincon and trying to teach at the same time. I want no part of this terrible idea and think it will wreck the beginner program.

  16. ISO #16

  17. ISO #17

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    Experienced players is a terrible idea which many people who have tried out MS beginners games hate. Good luck to them if Calix were one of them and rolled scum. It'd be a game of sheeping the loud veteran without any thought. It's a massive conflict of interest to be playing in a game with your own wincon and trying to teach at the same time. I want no part of this terrible idea and think it will wreck the beginner program.
    The reason so many people can't play in MS games is becuase of its long timeline. I never got the impression someone hate the game becuase of a experienced player in it.

  18. ISO #18

  19. ISO #19

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    The reason so many people can't play in MS games is becuase of its long timeline. I never got the impression someone hate the game becuase of a experienced player in it.
    Firebringer, among others, specifically mentioned that he found the mechanic to be odd and offputting given the conflict of interest. This was a while ago however when he first picked up MS so it's possible his views have changed.

  20. ISO #20

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    I would be fine, however, with players with a little bit of experience playing these games as a halfway compromise, like Gyrlander, AIVION, etc. That makes more sense than putting people in who could conduct the entire daytime chat by themselves.
    Gyrlander and AIVION are still new though. I was under the impression that Gyrlander was joining as a legitimate new player.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orpz View Post
    Why'd you leave out the sun emoji? I think it creates a huge sense of tone that is critical for the interpretation of the chat.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM Romeo View Post
    Go fuck yourself in the cucho.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed
    Your accent has ruined medieval fantasy films.

  21. ISO #21

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    With three of them, then the game becomes watching the loud veterans argue and sheeping ones of the three. It just totally destroys the environment of everyone picking up the game together and encourages passivity among the new players. They can sit back and let the vets hash it out, then lay down their votes.
    That happens if you assume newbies are sheeps. They will try to grasp the idea. first mislynch? second mislynch ? oh god they will try to win the game and don't fall in the third trap.

    There are so little games I lost as mafia. I shouldn't be mafia? The experiance of losing to a veteran mafia is way way way more valuable than losing to a newbie mafia becuase you don't grasp the idea of game.

  22. ISO #22

  23. ISO #23

    Re: Next starter game.

    While there is the issue of conflicting interests with having 'veteran' players in the game, I feel that the mentors would be more detached and apathetic if they are on the side-lines.

    The first game had those types: TDL didn't read the game, while Banana didn't mentor until Mesk was at L-1 and didn't explain the setup properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orpz View Post
    Why'd you leave out the sun emoji? I think it creates a huge sense of tone that is critical for the interpretation of the chat.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM Romeo View Post
    Go fuck yourself in the cucho.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed
    Your accent has ruined medieval fantasy films.

  24. ISO #24

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    I would be fine, however, with players with a little bit of experience playing these games as a halfway compromise, like Gyrlander, AIVION, etc. That makes more sense than putting people in who could conduct the entire daytime chat by themselves.
    yeah MS put people in 3 categories , they put one IC , 2 SE's and the rest will be filled with newcomers.

  25. ISO #25

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calix View Post
    Gyrlander and AIVION are still new though. I was under the impression that Gyrlander was joining as a legitimate new player.
    Both of them have played 3-4 or more games -- don't consider that to be particularly new. But fine, could have players like Secondpassing or Funce who have logged a few more games, but who would like to work on their scumhunting, etc.

  26. ISO #26

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calix View Post
    While there is the issue of conflicting interests with having 'veteran' players in the game, I feel that the mentors would be more detached and apathetic if they are on the side-lines.

    The first game had those types: TDL didn't read the game, while Banana didn't mentor until Mesk was at L-1 and didn't explain the setup properly.
    That's more of an issue with the instructions and communications to the mentors than anything else. Solicit ones who will be active and tell them from the outset that this is like a real game in terms of time commitment.

  27. ISO #27

    Re: Next starter game.

    even if you don't include more experianced people in game , the point for being a mentor is not to make the reads and guide the slot. its to answer their questions and learn them the tricks. which make newbies more detached from the game becuase they see someone in the background who they expect to be more valuable than this.

    If mentors lead the slot newbies won't try anything on their own.

    If they don't newbies feel detached and lost and they can't learn as much as playing with veterans.

  28. ISO #28

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    even if you don't include more experianced people in game , the point for being a mentor is not to make the reads and guide the slot. its to answer their questions and learn them the tricks. which make newbies more detached from the game becuase they see someone in the background who they expect to be more valuable than this.

    If mentors lead the slot newbies won't try anything on their own.

    If they don't newbies feel detached and lost and they can't learn as much as playing with veterans.
    I honestly disagree. I think the purpose is to be in the trenches with the newbies and walk them through how to think about scumhunting and how they might approach things. I feel like the more passive mentor approach was what caused a lot of the poor play in this game. Not one mentor other than myself warned against pre-flip associations which was half the reason the scumhunting was so dreadful. Also, given we are the mentors, mentees aren't going to feel as comfortable approaching us unless we make it clear that we are a partner and invested in their success. Being passive is why RL mentor programs fail too -- I'd argue that more active mentors (not posting for them, but getting into the weeds actively), would have taught them more than detached mentors did this game.

  29. ISO #29

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    I honestly disagree. I think the purpose is to be in the trenches with the newbies and walk them through how to think about scumhunting and how they might approach things. I feel like the more passive mentor approach was what caused a lot of the poor play in this game. Not one mentor other than myself warned against pre-flip associations which was half the reason the scumhunting was so dreadful. Also, given we are the mentors, mentees aren't going to feel as comfortable approaching us unless we make it clear that we are a partner and invested in their success. Being passive is why RL mentor programs fail too -- I'd argue that more active mentors (not posting for them, but getting into the weeds actively), would have taught them more than detached mentors did this game.
    The point is I'm sure your mentee would learn more if she was playing with you and you told that in game. This way they can challenge the main ideas of a mafia game and learn them on their own.

    Teaching is a very sensitive job. If you teach them how should they resolve the problem with giving them the solution they will get challenged again later if they face the same scenario with different variables. But if you put them in scenario teaching them to learn by experiance from their mistakes they will learn how to think. If they do they can solve any other similar problem later on.

  30. ISO #30

  31. ISO #31

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    The point is I'm sure your mentee would learn more if she was playing with you and you told that in game. This way they can challenge the main ideas of a mafia game and learn them on their own.

    Teaching is a very sensitive job. If you teach them how should they resolve the problem with giving them the solution they will get challenged again later if they face the same scenario with different variables. But if you put them in scenario teaching them to learn by experiance from their mistakes they will learn how to think. If they do they can solve any other similar problem later on.
    That's a HUGE conflict of interest though. If we're both in the same game, we don't know if we're the same alignment. If I'm scum and know she's Town, then I'm either not playing to my win condition by helping her read players or slots, or I'm deliberately misleading her. It just doesn't work to do in-game mentoring in a game where everyone is against each other.

  32. ISO #32

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    That's a HUGE conflict of interest though. If we're both in the same game, we don't know if we're the same alignment. If I'm scum and know she's Town, then I'm either not playing to my win condition by helping her read players or slots, or I'm deliberately misleading her. It just doesn't work to do in-game mentoring in a game where everyone is against each other.
    And that's Mafia. If you're blindly following someone in the game, even if they are your mentor, then that is a great learning experience to not be a sheep. They should be questioning everything, noticing contradictions, ect.

  33. ISO #33

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    And that's Mafia. If you're blindly following someone in the game, even if they are your mentor, then that is a great learning experience to not be a sheep. They should be questioning everything, noticing contradictions, ect.
    I'd rather not set up beginners to fail like that. If you give someone a mentor, you're basically saying you should be at least someone deferential to this person. Mentors in-game who might be secretly against you just sounds like a giant mind-fuck to the newbies.

  34. ISO #34

    Re: Next starter game.

    You both are trying to apear town.

    if your town and she's town she may learn your honest way of thinking but she will challenge it instead of accepting it.

    if your mafia and she's town she learn that she can't just trust people appearing town like that and will get the puzzling grasp of mafia even after failing. or she will catch you and that will be her most enjoyable moment in game to solve the puzzle.

    If your both mafia she learn how to be manipulative and learn to put thoughtful townie like posts. and will learn the tactics of manipulation from a experienced teammate who will help her if she get in trap.

    If your town and she is mafia she has a great challenge to overcome and I know most of the newbies will do it (I basically witnessed more newbie scum teams overcoming the town veterans than vise versa and I'm sure about it). And the game will be extremely fun for them

  35. ISO #35

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    I'd rather not set up beginners to fail like that. If you give someone a mentor, you're basically saying you should be at least someone deferential to this person. Mentors in-game who might be secretly against you just sounds like a giant mind-fuck to the newbies.
    the game is a giant mind fuck anyway. Let them to get challenged fast is the best way they will be more active intelligent selfaware players later.

  36. ISO #36

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    I'd rather not set up beginners to fail like that. If you give someone a mentor, you're basically saying you should be at least someone deferential to this person. Mentors in-game who might be secretly against you just sounds like a giant mind-fuck to the newbies.
    You act like the newbies aren't supposed to make mistakes...but that's the entire point of a newbie game. What better way of learning the rule of "don't trust the loud/ experienced person" than by actually being duped by one?

    It's not a mind-fuck. It's part of the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orpz View Post
    Why'd you leave out the sun emoji? I think it creates a huge sense of tone that is critical for the interpretation of the chat.
    Quote Originally Posted by FM Romeo View Post
    Go fuck yourself in the cucho.
    Quote Originally Posted by MattZed
    Your accent has ruined medieval fantasy films.

  37. ISO #37

  38. ISO #38

    Re: Next starter game.

    I also agree that making mistakes is the best way to learn. When something memorable happens, either thru amazement or embarrassment, you remember that. That lesson will stick with you and prevent you from making the same mistake twice. If you are a sheep in a game and just following the lead of a loud person, and you end up losing cause that loud person was scum.. Maybe next time you're going to question this loud person, instead of sitting back and following.

    I do agree that a mentor shouldn't specifically be in a game to help a specific person, but veterans can mentor people in the same game by offering advice like "We should be asking questions about x" and things like that so players know what to look for.

    That's just my opinion, though. I feel the best way to learn something is by failing. You don't get better at anything by competing with people worse than you. This doesn't just go for FM, it goes for all aspects of life.

  39. ISO #39

  40. ISO #40

    Re: Next starter game.

    I agree with Cryptonic and DarknessB.. Having a mentor in the same game seems pointless to me.
    If you can't trust your mentor, where is the difference between your mentor and any other veteran?

    It might be true that you learn faster the hard way - but you don't need a mentor to betray you then. Other, more experienced players can help out the newer ones without having one specific mentor assigned. Having a mentor in the game and finding out that he (who was supposed to help me) just betrayed me and basically took advantage of me trusting him because he's my mentor would just demotivate me and I probably wouldn't wanna play another game then.

    I think it should be either newbies and vets mixed without mentors or mentors who aren't playing themselves - you just expect different things from a mentor than from just another player. Getting deceived by someone who is supposed to be helping you isn't part of the game.

  41. ISO #41

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veri View Post
    I agree with Cryptonic and DarknessB.. Having a mentor in the same game seems pointless to me.
    If you can't trust your mentor, where is the difference between your mentor and any other veteran?

    It might be true that you learn faster the hard way - but you don't need a mentor to betray you then. Other, more experienced players can help out the newer ones without having one specific mentor assigned. Having a mentor in the game and finding out that he (who was supposed to help me) just betrayed me and basically took advantage of me trusting him because he's my mentor would just demotivate me and I probably wouldn't wanna play another game then.

    I think it should be either newbies and vets mixed without mentors or mentors who aren't playing themselves - you just expect different things from a mentor than from just another player. Getting deceived by someone who is supposed to be helping you isn't part of the game.
    This is what I was trying to get at in a far more articulate way, lol. Mafia is already difficult enough for new players in terms of knowing who to trust and who to scumread. On top of that, you would be adding a host / game assigned mentor who is ostensibly supposed to help the new player, but who might secretly be against them and undermining them? You've just made the game even harder for the new player since they don't know whether to trust any other player OR their game assigned mentor. Why give them another level of WIFOM to hash through? A mentor who might not be 100% on your side isn't going to facilitate open and candid conversation. To be fair, you'd have to put down as a disclaimer (PLEASE NOTE THAT YOUR MENTOR MAY NOT BE YOUR SAME ALIGNMENT AND YOU SHOULD MAKE THE DECISION OF WHETHER / HOW MUCH TO TRUST HIM OR HER). At that point, any newbie with any common sense is not going to use the mentor that much given the risk of the mentor having a hidden agenda.

    Veri is completely right -- if you insist on the vet / newbie combination games, assigned in-game mentors are an unnecessary and terrible idea, which will just make things more difficult for the newcomers. They will also risk alienating new players -- who wants to be betrayed by someone the game itself has assigned to help you? That's not a part of Mafia.
    Last edited by DarknessB; May 11th, 2016 at 10:16 AM.

  42. ISO #42

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veri View Post
    I agree with Cryptonic and DarknessB.. Having a mentor in the same game seems pointless to me.
    If you can't trust your mentor, where is the difference between your mentor and any other veteran?

    It might be true that you learn faster the hard way - but you don't need a mentor to betray you then. Other, more experienced players can help out the newer ones without having one specific mentor assigned. Having a mentor in the game and finding out that he (who was supposed to help me) just betrayed me and basically took advantage of me trusting him because he's my mentor would just demotivate me and I probably wouldn't wanna play another game then.

    I think it should be either newbies and vets mixed without mentors or mentors who aren't playing themselves - you just expect different things from a mentor than from just another player. Getting deceived by someone who is supposed to be helping you isn't part of the game.
    the experinaced players in your game are not your mentors.

    No newbie need a mentor to teach them stuff. They only need to see the ideas and try them out on their own.

  43. ISO #43

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    the experinaced players in your game are not your mentors.

    No newbie need a mentor to teach them stuff. They only need to see the ideas and try them out on their own.
    With all due respect, I've heard that many of the new players felt unsupported by their mentors and could have used far more assistance than they received. I understand your philosophy on this question, but the actual feedback that has been received is completely the opposite.

  44. ISO #44

    Re: Next starter game.

    as I said its just my idea. not forcing anyone to implement it. but the way last game was may lead in background fight that just make newbies confused.

    "Mentors" are not god. they basically don't know much more than the newbies beside the old ideas and tactics used in a game. they can't use them as mentors and they can't show newbies how they work.

    Newbies must make their own playstyle on their own.

  45. ISO #45

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarknessB View Post
    With all due respect, I've heard that many of the new players felt unsupported by their mentors and could have used far more assistance than they received. I understand your philosophy on this question, but the actual feedback that has been received is completely the opposite.
    If they want someone else to play with them their better not playing at all. If they have questions they may receive an answer.

    thats how cruel this life is.

  46. ISO #46

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    as I said its just my idea. not forcing anyone to implement it. but the way last game was may lead in background fight that just make newbies confused.

    "Mentors" are not god. they basically don't know much more than the newbies beside the old ideas and tactics used in a game. they can't use them as mentors and they can't show newbies how they work.

    Newbies must make their own playstyle on their own.
    Of course, but given the experience disparity between mentors and mentees, mentees are often hesitant to reach out / be pushy with their mentors unless a good rapport is struck first. As in, mentors are the ones helping mentees, so mentees don't feel like they should be as pushy unless the mentor has made it very clear that all annoying questions are welcomed, please message me as much as you want, etc. This is the same dynamic with real-world mentors in academic / job related contexts. If the mentors aren't very proactive and don't reach out, the relationship is just one on paper and doesn't help the mentee at all. Given we all want to help new players, that could be / should have been a bigger emphasis than it was during the beginner game.

  47. ISO #47

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    If they want someone else to play with them their better not playing at all. If they have questions they may receive an answer.

    thats how cruel this life is.
    The entire point of being a mentor was to help the mentees though. Making them feel like they have you come to you doesn't facilitate that help, especially when there is an experience disparity and you are doing them the favor. In real life, everyone hates mentors who don't reach out -- because the mentee isn't going to say anything (being afraid of stepping on the mentor's toes) and will instead feel like the mentor doesn't want to help. I've seen this in many context (either first-hand or by hearing about other's experiences).

  48. ISO #48

    Re: Next starter game.

    My point is It's not like teaching someone how to bike. they need to test tactics to learn. You can't teach experience. you may show it though.

    I'm not saying the mentor mentee has no pros but I have critical issues with it becuase I know

    1 - some mentors won't do anything
    2 - some mentors will just give their reads to their mentee and play the game for them

    and mentees will just be outten in a gladiator field without knowing anything about anything! some will be puppets some will be extremely confused and they won't learn so much.

  49. ISO #49

    Re: Next starter game.

    I'm a teacher I know how to teach.

    yes you must answer to your student.

    You must be active and you must feel responsible. thats not my point.

    I'm saying in this game they shouldn't have someone they fully trust who is doing the job for them. I feel its damaging the main idea of the game. If you want to have newbies who can face the challenges and the no-trust nature of the game you must put them in the same situation sinsce the start.

  50. ISO #50

    Re: Next starter game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frozen Angel View Post
    I'm a teacher I know how to teach.

    yes you must answer to your student.

    You must be active and you must feel responsible. thats not my point.

    I'm saying in this game they shouldn't have someone they fully trust who is doing the job for them. I feel its damaging the main idea of the game. If you want to have newbies who can face the challenges and the no-trust nature of the game you must put them in the same situation sinsce the start.
    Yes, but there's a halfway balance to strike there. You don't teach someone to drive without showing them how to adjust their mirrors, telling them about the pedals, or how to switch gears. There's a danger in just putting the student behind the wheel and saying nothing. That's what I think happened here in many cases. I'm not saying play the game for the mentees, but often times, they could have used a nudge in the right direction which either came too late or not at all.

 

 

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