S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

1. Agreed because it makes no sense for town to try and write off their contributions from square one as "null"
2. Wait, did the mafia even have a N0 chat?

Voting for my own group means that I have little influence over who gets lynched today and if there's something I know, it's that nobody gives a flying fuck about what you have to say when you can't vote.

So hell fucking no am I doing that shit anytime soon, regardless of how we're read.



Second option makes more sense. If anything, the unknown element in Group 2 makes it a hazard.

On second thoughts, I'm going to switch to Group 3. This is based on nothing but meta as I've played with 4/5 of the players in that block so I have a better chance of detecting which 1-2 of them are scum.

-vote Group 3

zzzzz I hope I am mafia, because this post has calix as my new top town. Her thinking literally has mimic'ed mine. While this is not exactly indicative that I am the same alignment as her (assuming I am infact town), it does show that she wants to be able to vote on people SHE KNOWS HOW TO READ. Town perspective from calix so far IMO.

Also, I want to say Calix not bandwagoning titus when she was gifted an option is potentially a

1) calix is town, titus is mafia
2) calix is town, titus is town and open minded (what I am slightly leaning towards)
3) calix is mafia WITH ME, titus is town.

I don't think I am ever mafia with titus based on this opening reaction by her.

[Titus]

While I really liked your opening, I strongly agree with your point 2.

If you want to lynch me over the "mechanic", that I can understand. But to "ignore" me is one of the most INSANE things I have EVER heard. MY READS ARE 100% UNBIASED. Even If I am lynched, YOU should be paying attention to my reads. Everything I give will be from a town scum hunting perspective. You might not agree with the things I read, but to ignore them is one of the most anti-town things to do.

The thing is, I have to take your word that you're trying to be town while not being town. You said you'd be salty if you lynched scum, that is an admitted bias against lynching scum.

The comparison process serves to vet you to see if you're true to what you're saying today.

[Titus]

zzzzz I hope I am mafia, because this post has calix as my new top town. Her thinking literally has mimic'ed mine. While this is not exactly indicative that I am the same alignment as her (assuming I am infact town), it does show that she wants to be able to vote on people SHE KNOWS HOW TO READ. Town perspective from calix so far IMO.

Also, I want to say Calix not bandwagoning titus when she was gifted an option is potentially a

1) calix is town, titus is mafia
2) calix is town, titus is town and open minded (what I am slightly leaning towards)
3) calix is mafia WITH ME, titus is town.

I don't think I am ever mafia with titus based on this opening reaction by her.

So you're one of the guys who thinks playstyle is AI.

Got it. Even if you're town, I want not to sheep you.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Why were you originally planning to vote your own group?

I have never been mis lynched, and I feel that I am good at making town circles and displaying my alignment. Calix is an active player and will provide content regardless of how right or wrong she will be. If it turns out we are both town as our alignments should be indicated by our play (mine on day2, hers now) then we have a 1/3 or 2/3 chance to hit the mafia based on rng alone.

I feel stronger about my town defending skills than I do my day 1 scum hunting skills. Look at all of my combined FM games, I have perfect town circles(the only mafia in my town circle past day 1 in ANY fm game, is mattzed - qt.314). I felt my group was a good chance to be able to town circle and scum hunt on POE rather than scum motivation which I have shown that I am hit or miss on. Play to my strengths.

I am mainly posting this for everyone, as I have discussed this with kovath in extensive detail on skype.

[Shapelog]

Not only am I a SELF AWARE "miller" per say, but I DO NOT KNOW MY ROLE OR ALIGNMENT UNTIL THE END OF NIGHT 1.

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.

This game is going to be extremely annoying for me because I feel it is as if I am culted. If I play as if im town (71.4%), and I lynch a scum, then find out I am actually scum tonight, I will be fucking livid.

I do want to say that if I had to guess I am a town role because I do not expect that quick assumed me, and maybe others?, would claim this right away and if a sheriff green checks a mafia that is basically gg for town.

WHY DOES HE START THE GAME WHEN I GO OUT TO DINNER.

-vote group3

Things about this post I do not like:

This game is going to be extremely annoying for me because I feel it is as if I am culted. If I play as if im town (71.4%), and I lynch a scum, then find out I am actually scum tonight, I will be fucking livid.

I do want to say that if I had to guess I am a town role because I do not expect that quick assumed me, and maybe others?, would claim this right away and if a sheriff green checks a mafia that is basically gg for town.

If that was the case, you (if u are telling the thruth) would be unaware IMO. Aside that, Never rely on Host WIFOM period in the game (if u don't know what WIFOM means, it means Wine in front of me aka useless talk.)

Also the top part is prob. the best situation you could be in if you were scum in this case.

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG. There are too many players I do not know to risk going after new players, and I think it is better to see waht they have. RLvg has shown consistenlyy that he is posting below the normal threshold, and is more trolly. I think lynching him will be good for town regardless of flip. Also, I just pray others don't have the same or equally retarded fucking PM.

So you acknowledge the fact that there are new players, then want to lynch who ever the hell that guy is for something those said new players aren't going to understand? Can you please be a bit more specif about RLVG's meta?

What do you think of my posts since i consider myself a little troll?

I had planned to vote on my own group, however since I do not know my alignment, I personally think it would be best to vote group 3 and lynch RLVG.

You don't need to know your alignment to not vote your own group... You really don't. Yes, you might lynch scum if you are actually aware miller who is also a basically a mole without a def. alignment. Just look for sus. and be normal.

Besides, if you care about if you hit mafia as mafia, and that is stopping you from voting your group, how is voting someone who not here any better for that?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

So you're one of the guys who thinks playstyle is AI.

Got it. Even if you're town, I want not to sheep you.

I am one of those guys who rather keep an known mafia alive who is producing town with out of the box solid reads than to keep a useless lurker town alive. I don't want you to ever sheep me, I want you to listen to what I have to say, use your brain, and then solve the game with me. The fact you even bring up that you are thinking about sheeping people is making my town read on you drop even quicker. Which is slightly scummy of me to be flipping on my top town read who happens to scum read me.

To the taking my word for it. You have to understand me. I live and die by my town roles. If I had to pick I would be town 90% of the time, mafia 10% of the time, neutral never. Not only do the statistics (71.4%, less if the person viewing this is town, more if the person viewing is mafia) say I am town, but I WANT to be town. I rather play a town agenda and try to solve the game. If I find out tomorrow that I am mafia, guess what I already solved the game and it isn't the same for me.

[Never Unlucky]

Lol, I never have played a moba, I just know the terms. Why isn't it a good thing for there to be people how i act?

You'll see it for yourself when Spruance'll "post".

Voting for my own group means that I have little influence over who gets lynched today and if there's something I know, it's that nobody gives a flying fuck about what you have to say when you can't vote.

No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.

Second option makes more sense. If anything, the unknown element in Group 2 makes it a hazard.

On second thoughts, I'm going to switch to Group 3. This is based on nothing but meta as I've played with 4/5 of the players in that block so I have a better chance of detecting which 1-2 of them are scum.

-vote Group 3

I agree with this. Group 3 is composed of 0 new players/immigrants. It's a much better bet.

-vote Group 3

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Things about this post I do not like:

If that was the case, you (if u are telling the thruth) would be unaware IMO. Aside that, Never rely on Host WIFOM period in the game (if u don't know what WIFOM means, it means Wine in front of me aka useless talk.)

Also the top part is prob. the best situation you could be in if you were scum in this case.

So you acknowledge the fact that there are new players, then want to lynch who ever the hell that guy is for something those said new players aren't going to understand? Can you please be a bit more specif about RLVG's meta?

What do you think of my posts since i consider myself a little troll?


You don't need to know your alignment to not vote your own group... You really don't. Yes, you might lynch scum if you are actually aware miller who is also a basically a mole without a def. alignment. Just look for sus. and be normal.

Besides, if you care about if you hit mafia as mafia, and that is stopping you from voting your group, how is voting someone who not here any better for that?

My post quality is going to be weak for the next several hours, I say this not as an excuse, but I will need to be more coherent to analyze posts by a player I have never seen before.

I am relying on host meta because the setup said the game would be BALANCED. A mafia miller is unfair with the possible roles and setup, you can disagree with me, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.

RLVG is a fine player, however in cat and mouse he ONLY posted troll comments and then went MIA for several days. Then I saw one or two more games where I believe he did not post at all? Other players who were in those games can comment on that, and what they think of RLVG's recent posting habits. If he steps his play up this game this is all out the window obviously.

I just discussed my thoughts on voting my own group. To your point, I like to play with skilled players who are willing to improve. In a recent game (qt.3.14) I went against lynching a very likely mafia because I respected their play and wanted to continue playing with them over other players who could have been mafia that I do not feel were playing as well. In this particular case I feel like lynching someone who is not going to post benefits the game experience whether or not it helps or hurts me in the game.

[Calix]

I should probably put in my two cents on Duck's meta.

A. He's prone to bragging about his FM play, references his own meta every other post, and flips on his reads a lot. This is NAI for him.

B. He also loves his insane gambits...which is also NAI. Textbook example of this is in Instant Mafia 2.0 (only 700-odd posts and I think it showcases Duck's usual play very well)

C. To call him an emotional player is the equivalent of calling the Prime Minster "fairly well-known in politics"

Thank me later.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You'll see it for yourself when Spruance'll "post".



No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.




I agree with this. Group 3 is composed of 0 new players/immigrants. It's a much better bet.

-vote Group 3

I think this is a HARD TOWN SLIP from NU. (Jesus christ with my town reads).

"flip a coin on mckd(that is me) alignment."

THE ONLY PEOPLE IN THIS GAME WHO KNOWS MY ALIGNMENT IS THE MAFIA. Whether it is 3+me, or 4 people who know each other, they know my alignment. I think the way NU worded this post was NATURAL, not forced or fabricated and was completely TOWN.

also my vote fucked up at the start. Literally fuck up my vote in some way eveyr fucking game.

-vote group 3

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I should probably put in my two cents on Duck's meta.

A. He's prone to bragging about his FM play, references his own meta every other post, and flips on his reads a lot. This is NAI for him.

B. He also loves his insane gambits...which is also NAI. Textbook example of this is in Instant Mafia 2.0 (only 700-odd posts and I think it showcases Duck's usual play very well)

C. To call him an emotional player is the equivalent of calling the Prime Minster "fairly well-known in politics"

Thank me later.

FOllow up if you dont mind.

Do you feel that I would use this "duck meta" to manipulate others based on what they know of my meta, or is it more of my style and do what I think could be good based on the situation.

Keep in mind in WoM, as mafia I tried to fake rage to match my town play.

If you think the first option, you said my play is NAI, which means you should believe that I am being earnest? After WoM, on skype you pm'ed me it was obvious when I was faking my "gambit" or rage.

I don't know if i worded this in a way that made sense to what I was asking.

[Calix]

You'll see it for yourself when Spruance'll "post".

Spruance isn't as difficult to read as you make him out to be.

[quote]No one should be voting for Group 2 unless a slip occurs, just look at the player pool -- Calix, arguably the hardest player to lynch, Slayer, a pre-teen who probably forgot he's signed up for this game, Spruance, the lurking troll and dumb town, Duck, Mr. WIFOM, and Jealous whom we know few about.

Voting for G2 is basically saying you support a PL on SPruance and/or Slayer (Jealous maybe) and/or you want to flip the coin in regards to mckd's alignment.

Why are you discouraging lynches/ votes on us this early and categorising players like that? Given that most players aren't aware of who the 'difficult' targets will be, there's no reason that anyone should be flagging up XYZ as "don't lynch"

Explain why you did that or I'll suspect that you're trying to dissuade the newer scum players from getting into my line of sight.

It doesn't help that you've sheeped my vote on two occasions already and it's not even 100 posts into the game. I haven't even warmed up yet because it's 1am in the bloody morning.

[Shapelog]

Forgot to link these:
[QUOTE=Calix;633311
What situations would determine wherever you are more aggressive/ passive?[/QUOTE]

My tone for starts.

When I am aggressive, I am usually being a smart arse about it. Not in a bad way, just witty. And a course those posts tend to feel aggressive due to the post style.

Passive i am more mellow and jokey. Kinda like when I ask about what you make out of the voting so far on page 1.

it honestly very obv once the game gets going, IMO.

Hi Professor.

None of us are your students.

Hi Ms.Titus,

I don't want your witty remarks.

Well i do if they hold alignment related info in them.

Here is what we know:

1) If I am lieing, I am always mafia and doing this
2) I will likely have cooridnated this in night chat already and my partner will be going along with it in some way or fashion?

If you can find town or mafia motivation in what happened to me share it, and use it for or against me.

I have stated many times in previous games that I DO NOT plan my opening posts or plays. I do everything as it happens, if you think that is alignment indicative then read me in that way, because guess what I can't fucking tell you if you are right or wrong about me.

Lol, the way you are talking about it seems a bit nature honesty.
At least in this post.

@Calix Personally I feel our group would be bad to select because this site has a bad meta where activity is read as town. I would argue my activity and yours would make us "immune", do you agree with this, and what are your thoughts on that?

Lol then share that with the thread.

I will also chip in and say activity does not matter with my alignment, since i post like my sig. suggests.

[JealousTL]

Open request:

I've heard a few people stating their opinions for and against meta-reads. Since I have no experience with anyone here, will people be vigilant about meta? I am not a big fan of reading meta myself, but in this scenario where people have a lot of experience with one another, it could be a valuable tool. Sifting through the "he said, she said" is a tedious task but I have done it before to some success. So, in short, my request is that if you see something that rubs you the wrong way about someone in reference to their meta, please post it and be ready to defend it against the target's scummates. From what I see in the list of participants, the majority of you should be familiar with one another, so scum /should/ be in the minority if defending one another on meta reads.

[JealousTL]

Also, shit, one of my former posts somehow didn't post when I hit post. I will have to draft it again because it had pertinent information.

[Shapelog]

I actually just thought of something about Duck, But if I share it, it might change the idea since it would become invalid.

[Quick]

I am somewhat lenient with this rule, but there is a rule about quote manipulation. It is there so people are not making fake quotes saying someone said something they did not - ment to eliminate malicious quoting techniques, but I DO expect people to clean up their quote tags when they preview their posts.

So please, clean up quotes before making them, especially if you already see that someone misquoted the post you are quoting.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I actually just thought of something about Duck, But if I share it, it might change the idea since it would become invalid.

Might as well share it, that or twiddle our thumbs and discuss nothing...

[Calix]

FOllow up if you dont mind.

Do you feel that I would use this "duck meta" to manipulate others based on what they know of my meta, or is it more of my style and do what I think could be good based on the situation.

Keep in mind in WoM, as mafia I tried to fake rage to match my town play.

If you think the first option, you said my play is NAI, which means you should believe that I am being earnest? After WoM, on skype you pm'ed me it was obvious when I was faking my "gambit" or rage.

I don't know if i worded this in a way that made sense to what I was asking.

You do use it to manipulate others because if there's one thing you adore, it's being widely town-read. Hence why this move of yours stands out as it does.

The main advantages fake-claiming No-Alignment has as scum is to take yourself off the table for the lynch. However, mafia in that position would want their group voted so that the chances of a ML are higher. Also you could have drawn less attention to yourself by simply voting for a different group and thus save yourself that way.

However it's an extremely troll mechanic and I don't get why it would be included in this setup.

If I take it at face value, you are telling the truth. However, I'm not because I fully expect that this is Stage 1 of your WIFOM9000 master plan and that another layer is going to smack me in the face with the subtlety of a whale flopping out of water.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You do use it to manipulate others because if there's one thing you adore, it's being widely town-read. Hence why this move of yours stands out as it does.

The main advantages fake-claiming No-Alignment has as scum is to take yourself off the table for the lynch. However, mafia in that position would want their group voted so that the chances of a ML are higher. Also you could have drawn less attention to yourself by simply voting for a different group and thus save yourself that way.

However it's an extremely troll mechanic and I don't get why it would be included in this setup.

If I take it at face value, you are telling the truth. However, I'm not because I fully expect that this is Stage 1 of your WIFOM9000 master plan and that another layer is going to smack me in the face with the subtlety of a whale flopping out of water.

Meh, I agree with this analysis, minus the ending paragraph.
@Kovath You asked a question then went back to your abyss. There is no netural in this setup, so WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?

[Calix]

Open request:

I've heard a few people stating their opinions for and against meta-reads. Since I have no experience with anyone here, will people be vigilant about meta? I am not a big fan of reading meta myself, but in this scenario where people have a lot of experience with one another, it could be a valuable tool. Sifting through the "he said, she said" is a tedious task but I have done it before to some success. So, in short, my request is that if you see something that rubs you the wrong way about someone in reference to their meta, please post it and be ready to defend it against the target's scummates. From what I see in the list of participants, the majority of you should be familiar with one another, so scum /should/ be in the minority if defending one another on meta reads.

This post makes no sense. If someone uses a meta reference to scum-read a player, then the mafia are going to jump in to defend that player?

Why do you think that scum would respond like that? The player would just retaliate against the meta read as they know their own meta better than anyone else's, no?

[JealousTL]

So the post that got eaten by the forum (pardon my noobness) was directed at an earlier post @Calix but is mostly @Everyone because it pertains to how we should approach this game as town.

Calix said that there is going to be a 2/1/1 split of scum in the groups. That is not true. As I was reading the setup I noticed the conspicuous absence of an explanation as to how groups are chosen. After PMing Quick about it, I found out that the group distribution is random; this means we have to assume that it was done independently of alignment. If you don't trust me, contact him about it either in the setup thread, PM or QT (I'm not certain but it seems he prefers QT?).

This means we can't know if the groups are 2/0/2 or 2/1/1 or 3/0/1 or even 4/0/0. I'm sure many of you can understand the implications of this, but here are a few of them:

1. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches don't hit any scum, that does not necessitate that scum exists in that group.
2. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches we hit a fair amount of scum but the group does not re-assimilate into the other groups as per the rules, do not be surprised. We need to hunt further.
3. Scum could potentially have a lot more power in terms of selecting which group should be lynched or who is to be lynched than in a 2/1/1 set-up. Be conscious of bussing or subtle protection.

In short, please do not operate on the assumption that groups are split 2/1/1. Whatever that means to you, please share your thoughts.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This post makes no sense. If someone uses a meta reference to scum-read a player, then the mafia are going to jump in to defend that player?

Why do you think that scum would respond like that? The player would just retaliate against the meta read as they know their own meta better than anyone else's, no?

I know people hate when others do this, but I am a question stealer.

Personally I think mafia are more likely to defend the player in these scenarios because it is an easy way to bullshit some strong reason to town defend the other, and make the accuser look dumb with weak evidence.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

So the post that got eaten by the forum (pardon my noobness) was directed at an earlier post @Calix but is mostly @Everyone because it pertains to how we should approach this game as town.

Calix said that there is going to be a 2/1/1 split of scum in the groups. That is not true. As I was reading the setup I noticed the conspicuous absence of an explanation as to how groups are chosen. After PMing Quick about it, I found out that the group distribution is random; this means we have to assume that it was done independently of alignment. If you don't trust me, contact him about it either in the setup thread, PM or QT (I'm not certain but it seems he prefers QT?).

This means we can't know if the groups are 2/0/2 or 2/1/1 or 3/0/1 or even 4/0/0. I'm sure many of you can understand the implications of this, but here are a few of them:

1. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches don't hit any scum, that does not necessitate that scum exists in that group.
2. If we continuously lynch one group and after 2-3 lynches we hit a fair amount of scum but the group does not re-assimilate into the other groups as per the rules, do not be surprised. We need to hunt further.
3. Scum could potentially have a lot more power in terms of selecting which group should be lynched or who is to be lynched than in a 2/1/1 set-up. Be conscious of bussing or subtle protection.

In short, please do not operate on the assumption that groups are split 2/1/1. Whatever that means to you, please share your thoughts.

2/0/2 would mean it would split the group into the other two groups right away, no?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Also, it cant be random, or if all 4 mafia go in one group, the game just ends lol.

[JealousTL]

This post makes no sense. If someone uses a meta reference to scum-read a player, then the mafia are going to jump in to defend that player?

Why do you think that scum would respond like that? The player would just retaliate against the meta read as they know their own meta better than anyone else's, no?

It is natural to defend yourself whether you are scum or not; the veracity of the defense is subjective. Remember that judging one's own meta is a subjective exercise whereas the collaborative reads of others is likely to average out to the truth, statistically speaking. That means if someone is defending their meta as being X but you have experience with it being Y, and see others erroneously saying that it is also X, then they could be implicated. Would it make sense for those others to defend this player even if they were of opposing alignments? Would a person be more likely to bus their teammate or defend them? Just things to think about and to speak your mind on, in the best interest of townies who don't have the experience to determine these things.

[JealousTL]

2/0/2 would mean it would split the group into the other two groups right away, no?

Good call, didn't consider that. I guess you can forget my dumb analysis.

/provennoob

[Calix]

So the post that got eaten by the forum (pardon my noobness) was directed at an earlier post @Calix but is mostly @Everyone because it pertains to how we should approach this game as town.

Calix said that there is going to be a 2/1/1 split of scum in the groups. That is not true. As I was reading the setup I noticed the conspicuous absence of an explanation as to how groups are chosen. After PMing Quick about it, I found out that the group distribution is random; this means we have to assume that it was done independently of alignment. If you don't trust me, contact him about it either in the setup thread, PM or QT (I'm not certain but it seems he prefers QT?).

This means we can't know if the groups are 2/0/2 or 2/1/1 or 3/0/1 or even 4/0/0. I'm sure many of you can understand the implications of this, but here are a few of them

Mafia's win condition state that they have to attain majority in a given group. There CANNOT be 3-4 Mafia in a given group because the Mafia would win straight away.

Like I said, this is MASSIVELY helpful to determining what scum team theories are not possible. For example, Spruance/ Calix/ Duck is confirmed to not exist as a scum team because we are in Group 2 and 3 Mafia cannot be in the same group.

I hadn't considered the possibility of there being 0 Mafia in a group, however. If that's the case then it has to be 2:2:0 or 1:1:2. Those are the only two combinations that can exist.

[JealousTL]

Working off of this correction, it seems natural that scum would try to steer the group vote away from the group that has two scum in it, no?

[JealousTL]

Mafia's win condition state that they have to attain majority in a given group. There CANNOT be 3-4 Mafia in a given group because the Mafia would win straight away.

Like I said, this is MASSIVELY helpful to determining what scum team theories are not possible. For example, Spruance/ Calix/ Duck is confirmed to not exist as a scum team because we are in Group 2 and 3 Mafia cannot be in the same group.

I hadn't considered the possibility of there being 0 Mafia in a group, however. If that's the case then it has to be 2:2:0 or 1:1:2. Those are the only two combinations that can exist.

Thankfully as @PLEASEDUCKK pointed out, there cannot be 0 scum in a group, because then the group would dissolve.

At least now I have a more concrete grasp of the setup because I now see the light.

[Shapelog]

My post quality is going to be weak for the next several hours, I say this not as an excuse, but I will need to be more coherent to analyze posts by a player I have never seen before.

That's fine, Still going to question you though :P

I am relying on host meta because the setup said the game would be BALANCED. A mafia miller is unfair with the possible roles and setup, you can disagree with me, but I think it is a reasonable assumption.

No set up talk is fine. What i am talking about is saying QT gave you/X player a certain role. Thats WIFOM since you don't actually know how/if QT did it.

RLVG is a fine player, however in cat and mouse he ONLY posted troll comments and then went MIA for several days. Then I saw one or two more games where I believe he did not post at all? Other players who were in those games can comment on that, and what they think of RLVG's recent posting habits. If he steps his play up this game this is all out the window obviously.

Ah, ok. It just sounded like the guy was trolly/a bit inactive.

Def. if anyone can comment about the bold please do so. But I make sense of what your saying at least.

I just discussed my thoughts on voting my own group. To your point, I like to play with skilled players who are willing to improve. In a recent game (qt.3.14) I went against lynching a very likely mafia because I respected their play and wanted to continue playing with them over other players who could have been mafia that I do not feel were playing as well. In this particular case I feel like lynching someone who is not going to post benefits the game experience whether or not it helps or hurts me in the game.

I prob. try to check this if i remember.

I don't honestly think I ever meet someone like that lol (leaving mafia alive.) The "lynching bad townie over maybe scum" makes sense to me as i def. have done that before. That alone doesn't really help me much with your alignment i must admit (other then if you don't do it) but nice to know I suppose.

I should probably put in my two cents on Duck's meta.

A. He's prone to bragging about his FM play, references his own meta every other post, and flips on his reads a lot. This is NAI for him.

B. He also loves his insane gambits...which is also NAI. Textbook example of this is in Instant Mafia 2.0 (only 700-odd posts and I think it showcases Duck's usual play very well)

C. To call him an emotional player is the equivalent of calling the Prime Minster "fairly well-known in politics"

Thank me later.

What is AI for him?

Open request:

I've heard a few people stating their opinions for and against meta-reads. Since I have no experience with anyone here, will people be vigilant about meta? I am not a big fan of reading meta myself, but in this scenario where people have a lot of experience with one another, it could be a valuable tool. Sifting through the "he said, she said" is a tedious task but I have done it before to some success. So, in short, my request is that if you see something that rubs you the wrong way about someone in reference to their meta, please post it and be ready to defend it against the target's scummates. From what I see in the list of participants, the majority of you should be familiar with one another, so scum /should/ be in the minority if defending one another on meta reads.

The bold makes no sense. #1 doesn't make sense due to that it requires us to know if the target is A scum, and b his team mates will come to his aid. And the #2 doesn't make sense due to that only working for players who aren't from this site. Basically #2 paints outsiders as scummy kinda.

Unless #2 refers to vets which then doesn't make sense since any of the vets should talk up if wrong meta is happening.

[JealousTL]

Thankfully as @PLEASEDUCKK pointed out, there cannot be 0 scum in a group, because then the group would dissolve.

At least now I have a more concrete grasp of the setup because I now see the light.

I meant @PLEASELEAVEDUCKK

[Calix]

It is natural to defend yourself whether you are scum or not; the veracity of the defense is subjective. Remember that judging one's own meta is a subjective exercise whereas the collaborative reads of others is likely to average out to the truth, statistically speaking. That means if someone is defending their meta as being X but you have experience with it being Y, and see others erroneously saying that it is also X, then they could be implicated. Would it make sense for those others to defend this player even if they were of opposing alignments? Would a person be more likely to bus their teammate or defend them? Just things to think about and to speak your mind on, in the best interest of townies who don't have the experience to determine these things.

Do you always type like you're masturbating furiously on a thesaurus? Just noticed that the way you talk is stilted and pings me as unnatural.

Given the nature of meta (something which can be checked as it is an account of previous plays) I don't see why scum would lie about their meta when sticking to the truth comes far more easily to them.

The other questions (interesting posting style, noting that) just cover the obvious about analysing player motivations.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Working off of this correction, it seems natural that scum would try to steer the group vote away from the group that has two scum in it, no?

I was thinking about this awhile ago. I think the opposite IF you think the group favors your 2 scum team. If the mafia team is calix/duck/x/x, we vote group 2 and sweep, it really is simple as that. Look at world of music where I was town read as mafia for high activity, and overwatch where calix was hard town read, partially due to activity (she was town though). The other players would have to bring very strong reads to keep up with our availability and high post counts.

[JealousTL]

The bold makes no sense. #1 doesn't make sense due to that it requires us to know if the target is A scum, and b his team mates will come to his aid. And the #2 doesn't make sense due to that only working for players who aren't from this site. Basically #2 paints outsiders as scummy kinda.

Unless #2 refers to vets which then doesn't make sense since any of the vets should talk up if wrong meta is happening.

I kinda implied in #1 that you, as a person eligible to make meta reads as a vet, would believe the meta to be scummy. #2, your analysis is exactly what I mean, I'm just giving further encouragement for people to generate discussion on such matters so that us newbies to the forum can have something to draw from. Seeing how defense/attack on different people splits has won me a game in the past in which I had no idea of what the meta was for anyone, so I would like to do the same here if the opportunity presents itself.

[Calix]

What is AI for him?

Tone/ emotional reads. Those would be the main differences between his town/ scum play. He's prone to raging as town and when he's scum, he has to live up to that and isn't always successful at making it sound genuine.

All of his crazy antics and play are just smoke and mirrors for that, in my opinion. I know that most players who have played with Duck would disagree here.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Tone/ emotional reads. Those would be the main differences between his town/ scum play. He's prone to raging as town and when he's scum, he has to live up to that and isn't always successful at making it sound genuine.

All of his crazy antics and play are just smoke and mirrors for that, in my opinion. I know that most players who have played with Duck would disagree here.

Thoughts on my tone so far? Also, do you see similarities between kovath in this game and IC? His questioning, and then disappearing?

I will say I have talked a lot with kovath about that game, and he does genuinely go afk, so I do not want that to be held against him as much as it seems odd for him to make an opening question and disappear without making an opening comment regarding something of his own opinion.

[Never Unlucky]

Spruance isn't as difficult to read as you make him out to be.

I was not saying he's hard to read. I meant that his trolling meta has always been detrimental to town. He sheeps, doesn't contribute, is the last town you'd wish is a TPR (IC...), and he fucking aggravates me.

A)Why are you discouraging lynches/ votes on us this early and B)categorising players like that? C) Given that most players aren't aware of who the 'difficult' targets will be, there's no reason that anyone should be flagging up XYZ as "don't lynch"

A)Because group 3 is made of players you'll lynch based on reads, not activity or WIFOM. It's just the obvious better vote.

B) Because it's how I see those players. It's my bias.
Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

C) You're not a "don't lynch" player. You're a close-to un-lynchable player, there is a difference. I've never seen someone make a decent case on you in the 3 games I've played with you.

[JealousTL]

Do you always type like you're masturbating furiously on a thesaurus? Just noticed that the way you talk is stilted and pings me as unnatural.

Given the nature of meta (something which can be checked as it is an account of previous plays) I don't see why scum would lie about their meta when sticking to the truth comes far more easily to them.

The other questions (interesting posting style, noting that) just cover the obvious about analysing player motivations.

Bluntly, yes. That is something that has been noted in my other forum mafia games on TeamLiquid (JealousTL = JealousTeamLiquid). I can't help it; English is not my first language, and I learned it more from foreign pedagogues and textbooks than I have from actual conversation. When my mind reaches for a word, I pick the word that best simulates the intention of my words as opposed to what is more palatable to my background and the direct translation as opposed to what most people are comfortable with. This is expounded by the fact that I am an English editor/tutor and thus when my hands touch the keyboard I unconsciously enter srsbznsmode.

You make a good point that a scum lying about their meta could make them stick out like a sore thumb to other experienced forum vets, but in my experience on Team Liquid it seems that some people tend to give free passes to others based on style, for example. I don't like that aspect of an experienced in-circle of players, and therefore am just asking for people to stay vigilant.

[Quick]

Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

I can assure you there were no shinanies going on with this.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I was not saying he's hard to read. I meant that his trolling meta has always been detrimental to town. He sheeps, doesn't contribute, is the last town you'd wish is a TPR (IC...), and he fucking aggravates me.



A)Because group 3 is made of players you'll lynch based on reads, not activity or WIFOM. It's just the obvious better vote.

B) Because it's how I see those players. It's my bias.
Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

C) You're not a "don't lynch" player. You're a close-to un-lynchable player, there is a difference. I've never seen someone make a decent case on you in the 3 games I've played with you.

If group 2 was selected, are you able to vote based on your reads and not personal bias against that player?

I don't want personal bias to shape your reads.

[Shapelog]

Might as well share it, that or twiddle our thumbs and discuss nothing...

Eh I share it, good mood so Why the hell not.

It is a bit WIFOMy i will admit, but if you hated playing scum so much (as it sounds like from your posts) then upon finding out your mafia, your activity/Morale/Content should drop accord as well. Moreover, in this game in particular, i feel like you would have a hard time hiding your distaste for being mafia.

It honestly isn't more then Tinfoil now that I written it down.

It is natural to defend yourself whether you are scum or not; the veracity of the defense is subjective. Remember that judging one's own meta is a subjective exercise whereas the collaborative reads of others is likely to average out to the truth, statistically speaking. That means if someone is defending their meta as being X but you have experience with it being Y, and see others erroneously saying that it is also X, then they could be implicated. Would it make sense for those others to defend this player even if they were of opposing alignments? Would a person be more likely to bus their teammate or defend them? Just things to think about and to speak your mind on, in the best interest of townies who don't have the experience to determine these things.

*Room Room*
*Turns the bus wheel, Bus goes sliding*
I mean my scum meta is littlery this post:


About mafia defending others (since i now understand what your talking about kinda.) I can say mafia does do it, but it depends on the player quite honestly. It also depends on the context it is presented sometimes to determine if it is mafia defending or not.

In this game however, Mafia kinda would be dumb to try and shut down the meta discussion, especially if they are new. Snice it possibly could give them more reasons to cast sus.

[Calix]

Thoughts on my tone so far? Also, do you see similarities between kovath in this game and IC? His questioning, and then disappearing?

I will say I have talked a lot with kovath about that game, and he does genuinely go afk, so I do not want that to be held against him as much as it seems odd for him to make an opening question and disappear without making an opening comment regarding something of his own opinion.

You haven't gotten angry yet, so no thoughts.

I know he's out-of-town for the next few days so I expect that he will be largely inactive.

I might stop posting soon because I don't want to flood the thread and make it harder for other players to catch up. Nothing urgent is being discussed right now.

I was not saying he's hard to read. I meant that his trolling meta has always been detrimental to town. He sheeps, doesn't contribute, is the last town you'd wish is a TPR (IC...), and he fucking aggravates me.

I am aware of Spruance's meta, so the explanation was not needed. Are you going anywhere with this?

A)Because group 3 is made of players you'll lynch based on reads, not activity or WIFOM. It's just the obvious better vote.

B) Because it's how I see those players. It's my bias.
Ironically, group 2 has the two players that made me reconsider /signing up and the one player that kept me in the /sign list. Plus, when (I'm willing to bet it's not a 'if') Slayer will be replaced, he'll be replaced by SP. zz

C) You're not a "don't lynch" player. You're a close-to un-lynchable player, there is a difference. I've never seen someone make a decent case on you in the 3 games I've played with you.

A. But that was based on MY own experiences. You haven't played with Yuki so my point is far less applicable to you.

B. Okay?

C. Because said players are scrubs and I never roll scum these days. I'm starting to feel like all the hosts have banded together to help the shitty/ apathetic townies by forcing me to carry them every game.

[JealousTL]

About mafia defending others (since i now understand what your talking about kinda.) I can say mafia does do it, but it depends on the player quite honestly. It also depends on the context it is presented sometimes to determine if it is mafia defending or not.

In this game however, Mafia kinda would be dumb to try and shut down the meta discussion, especially if they are new. Snice it possibly could give them more reasons to cast sus.

I wasn't trying say mafia would try to shut down meta discussion, just that people should be critical of any seeming alliance during such discussions, which I encourage (despite my admitted dislike of meta-reads) simply because I don't know any of these people and thus they know more than I do.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Eh I share it, good mood so Why the hell not.

It is a bit WIFOMy i will admit, but if you hated playing scum so much (as it sounds like from your posts) then upon finding out your mafia, your activity/Morale/Content should drop accord as well. Moreover, in this game in particular, i feel like you would have a hard time hiding your distaste for being mafia.

It honestly isn't more then Tinfoil now that I written it down.

*Room Room*
*Turns the bus wheel, Bus goes sliding*
I mean my scum meta is littlery this post:


About mafia defending others (since i now understand what your talking about kinda.) I can say mafia does do it, but it depends on the player quite honestly. It also depends on the context it is presented sometimes to determine if it is mafia defending or not.

In this game however, Mafia kinda would be dumb to try and shut down the meta discussion, especially if they are new. Snice it possibly could give them more reasons to cast sus.

(you can ask others that everything I am about to say in this post is a 100% honest regardless of my alignment, would never be wifom and is 100% accurate)

As town and mafia, I try 100% until the end. NO if ands or buts. In world of music, it was final 5, I was red checked, the town had auto and I fought for fucking hours trying everything in the book to win the game. I would be jovial as both alignments. I will say though IF I EVER ROLL NEUTRAL KILLING I WILL JUMP OFF THE FIRST BRIDGE I SEE IN REAL LIFE.


Also why the fuck am I the only one claiming something fucking abnormal. This is going to turn into some boy who cried wolf bullshit at this rate.

[JealousTL]

@PLEASELEAVEDUCKK Could you summarize what you mean by "claiming something fucking abnormal?"

[Shapelog]

Last post for tonight, getting tired from meds.

I kinda implied in #1 that you, as a person eligible to make meta reads as a vet, would believe the meta to be scummy. #2, your analysis is exactly what I mean, I'm just giving further encouragement for people to generate discussion on such matters so that us newbies to the forum can have something to draw from. Seeing how defense/attack on different people splits has won me a game in the past in which I had no idea of what the meta was for anyone, so I would like to do the same here if the opportunity presents itself.

Lol we were already doing the bold before you got here Jealous... well me and the C person was.

Also why would a vet think the meta would be scummy? And if so, who do you make of C guy/Girl's want to get all the meta out there?

Tone/ emotional reads. Those would be the main differences between his town/ scum play. He's prone to raging as town and when he's scum, he has to live up to that and isn't always successful at making it sound genuine.

I horrible at reading Tone in my mind. Emotional reads I am better at since it kinda is easier to see since it would effect their typing.

Don't feel like quoteing so:

K guy is here (or at least is looking at this page/fourm depending on how it picks it up) so idk why he is not posting. His post looked like he was trying to get something done, yet when it closed, he lefted.

Can back Jealous typing being genuine. Should of seen it in TL.
Eh screw it I quote again.

ut in my experience on Team Liquid it seems that some people tend to give free passes to others based on style, for example. I don't like that aspect of an experienced in-circle of players, and therefore am just asking for people to stay vigilant.

TL is honestly sinful for that crap d1.

[Calix]

Bluntly, yes. That is something that has been noted in my other forum mafia games on TeamLiquid (JealousTL = JealousTeamLiquid). I can't help it; English is not my first language, and I learned it more from foreign pedagogues and textbooks than I have from actual conversation. When my mind reaches for a word, I pick the word that best simulates the intention of my words as opposed to what is more palatable to my background and the direct translation as opposed to what most people are comfortable with. This is expounded by the fact that I am an English editor/tutor and thus when my hands touch the keyboard I unconsciously enter srsbznsmode.

You make a good point that a scum lying about their meta could make them stick out like a sore thumb to other experienced forum vets, but in my experience on Team Liquid it seems that some people tend to give free passes to others based on style, for example. I don't like that aspect of an experienced in-circle of players, and therefore am just asking for people to stay vigilant.

Case in point for why self-meta on Day 1 is a good idea with this player list.

By style, do you mean typographical details? Duck wasn't lying when he said that high activity + contribution is read as town more often than not. It also helps if you know how to spell and punctuate your sentences correctly.

So yes, the gist of what you are saying is a valid one and the point below characterises you as a cautious, perhaps paranoid, player. It'll be interesting to see if that is maintained.

I wasn't trying say mafia would try to shut down meta discussion, just that people should be critical of any seeming alliance during such discussions, which I encourage (despite my admitted dislike of meta-reads) simply because I don't know any of these people and thus they know more than I do.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@PLEASELEAVEDUCKK Could you summarize what you mean by "claiming something fucking abnormal?"

I am the only player who has mentioned anything that is not standard mafia 101.

I am known for making bizarre plays, making my claim questionable even if I am town read. If a player like kovath rng'ed this mechanic than everyone would, and probably should instantly believe him.

Quick was excited for this save, I CANT be the only one who knows something that the rest of town does not. If nobody claims claims it means either they have positive changes, unknown changes, I am a fucked like goats in cabbage town, or one of the sides was too strong so this was done to make it somewhat more balanced (isolated mafia, vs few TPR's) or (Town is strong and has an invest, and I am actually a town)

Am I taking fucking crazy pills?

[JealousTL]

Last post for tonight, getting tired from meds.

Lol we were already doing the bold before you got here Jealous... well me and the C person was.

Also why would a vet think the meta would be scummy? And if so, who do you make of C guy/Girl's want to get all the meta out there?

Didn't say that you all weren't doing so

I obviously cannot speak definitively but I always favor those who try to pursue information and generate discussion by questioning others and their posting habits. My self-admitted naivete' is saying I shouldn't put too much weight on it but it makes me townlean in my heart.

Can back Jealous typing being genuine. Should of seen it in TL.
Eh screw it I quote again.

TL is honestly sinful for that crap d1.

Yea ): Makes me sad.

Case in point for why self-meta on Day 1 is a good idea with this player list.

By style, do you mean typographical details? Duck wasn't lying when he said that high activity + contribution is read as town more often than not. It also helps if you know how to spell and punctuate your sentences correctly.

So yes, the gist of what you are saying is a valid one and the point below characterises you as a cautious, perhaps paranoid, player. It'll be interesting to see if that is maintained.

Never said that it wasn't a good idea - just that it might not be objectively accurate, and that people can pick that apart given the right exposure to said person's posting style.

By style I meant more of demeanor, or direction. Are they trying to solve the game? Are they trying too hard, or not hard enough? Basically, does something not seem consistent with their townie play? Typing mannerisms could play a part in this, too.

I would rather say that I am analytical and questioning, but I can see the cautious/paranoid vibe there too. I wouldn't say I am averse to such a characterization. I'd rather be paranoid than give free passes.