S-FM 208: Black Flag Nightless

[Unknown1234]

I think I read it wrong or understood it wrong.

I don't understand, but I can't stick around right now so I'll seek clarification tomorrow.

[Iced_Monopoly]

I think I read it wrong or understood it wrong.

#231 confirms NUs list is correct, and that he town reads himself in his list
#191 confirms SPs list lynch is the same as Spruances (therefore his town list must be the same unless he has a special null list he isnt sharing)
#170 confirms that Spruances list is correct, with the exception of me missing that he included himself in his own list
#71 confirms that Unknowns list is correct

I think you definitely misread the table, as all the information is correct based on the posts that I drew from.
Step one, look at players name in top column (blueish colour)
Step two, all the names below that in the town section are their town reads, all the names below that in the mafia section are their scum reads

I am still confused as to how you misinterpreted it, unless you somehow thought that all the players listed below were grouped based on the opinions they had of the player in blue?

[secondpassing]

#231 confirms NUs list is correct, and that he town reads himself in his list
#191 confirms SPs list lynch is the same as Spruances (therefore his town list must be the same unless he has a special null list he isnt sharing)
#170 confirms that Spruances list is correct, with the exception of me missing that he included himself in his own list
#71 confirms that Unknowns list is correct

I think you definitely misread the table, as all the information is correct based on the posts that I drew from.
Step one, look at players name in top column (blueish colour)
Step two, all the names below that in the town section are their town reads, all the names below that in the mafia section are their scum reads

I am still confused as to how you misinterpreted it, unless you somehow thought that all the players listed below were grouped based on the opinions they had of the player in blue?

Mesk + Eggy are at null right now

4 Iced Monopoly <--- weakest read.. because I haven't read into you much
3 Never Unlucky <-- recent switch
2 Calix <--recent switch
1 TheDarkestLight


I think I'm going to indulge in entertaining Calix while she's away. Currently doing a reread, and my goodness I've missed so many posts whilst at work.

[Eggy]

Eggy the only thing I really take out of that is where you say "disregard everything I said yesterday". That just seems like a horrible way to cover up your previous play.

cool story bro your opinion means very much to me.

[Eggy]

Take a look at his constant shifting of reads because people don't agree with him, only voting on people who have reached a slight bit of suspicion, and his comment to ignore everything he's said. I'm sure there's more but this is at the top of my head. What do you think?

except I voted NU before anyone else? I started that train lol. and I also voted mesk first and tried to start that train(which was a mistake) you accused me of sheeping you earleir but I really have not been sheeping anyone at all just been going off my gut for the most part. you seem to be trying to misrep me/throw shade on my play today I've just been enebriated for the most part of game I dont have much to say other than that. I dont really care very much if u say im scum because im leaning towards you being scum so I wouldnt be surpised.

[Eggy]

Eggy is know. For his "under the radar" playstyle as scum which is where we are going right now. Eggy scum-read NU, swapped when I made a point, but then swapped back again and put NU in his scum pile. He also puts players who aren't favoured (Secondpassing, me) into his scum pile without original explanations on either of us. I can't remember anything he said on TDL.

I've said secondpassing was town since the beginning? I never second guessed secondpassing lol thats one of the main reasons im thinkning NU is scum right now. judging by the size of the trains I dont believe that its all town on both and im inclined to believe scum would pile on one train instead of splitting the trains unless one of the trains is scum. so I am very confident that one of them is scum. and im pretty sure that NU is the scum between them.

[secondpassing]

Response in Lavender Blush. Should I pick a different color? It looks fine to me.

Jesus Christ, this formatting is cancerous. Is it really that hard to use the QUOTE] function or at least separate your posts using colours or something?
I find this hard to believe. Your early posts just look like you were wanting to post first more than anything else and I fail to see how your posts would have resulted in anything productive occurring.

In retrospect, I was thinking I was starting conversation a whole lot more actually creating conversation.

However, I do like the points you make about trying to pressure players early on with trains, although that falls under theory spec so not a strong point.

If you openly admit that your Mesk vote was because of salt, why didn't you change it after admitting the fact? (as the vote would have become useless in terms of pressuring players)

I did.

NU makes some strong points against SP. Town leaning.

I have a problem against this. So you read NU because you read me as scum? Something like that? because it seems like you're just hopping onto the CHOO CHOO.

This is meta, but Mesk is really subdued this game and unlike her OW play (where she struggled to keep up with the high post volume) I see no reason for that to be the case. Slight scum lean.

I would fix my reads list to have Mesk as Town. Nothing caught onto me again after I re-read. (There's a passing of ~30 minutes of time between this post and the post above.)


You town-read TDL based on a RVS vote, being happy (which you should go into more depth with as I don't follow how that's AI) and some setup spec? Those are NAI and the fact that you are comfortable enough with your town-read based on that to follow him (not just because you want to pressure players but because you are sheeping a town-read from the start of the game) rubs me the wrong way. Scum have a far easier time confirming town as they are informed on everyone's alignment and thus overstate their level of confidence in a read that is at odds with the reasoning given.

tl;dr: This town-read is far stronger than warranted.

-vote secondpassing

Just because you find them NAI, doesn't mean I do. Maybe the wording wasn't very good? I probably should have said I slightly town read TDL. If I slightly town read TDL, then based upon that, everyone else would have been more likely to be scum. As already stated, I was trying to encourage trains. So I voted you.

Basically, I'm not a fence sitter.

1. How is 'attacking your arguments' a scum tell? Unless you think that he is trying to paint you as scum, this isn't scummy.
2. Which questions do you feel he is trying to avoid and how would evading said questions help, exactly?

I felt that he was attacking my arguments for no reason. Which is scum trying to grasp for a lynch target. Secondly, players who only attack other player's comments are scum. Of the completed games I've read both Borderline Crazy Dealers and pisskop have both done this. Pisskop basically said, "You don't have a case against me. Piss off." the whole game. S-FM FF7

He's avoided answering the questions that he feels would make him seem like a hypocrite. Questions such as: "Where is your RVS vote? What is your alternative strategy? Are you just going to attack my posts?"

Answers that he would have given would have made him seem bad (unless of course he actually has a different answer to these):
My RVS vote is in the garbage.
I don't have an alternative strategy, I'm just going to piss on yours.
Oh, I'm not going to attack your posts, no no, why would I ever do that? /s

I think his TDL read is based on an unwarranted level of confidence that is at odds with the reasoning he gave. Feels like he knows TDL's alignment and thus had an easier time doling out a read on it. Given that there are only two factions, scum have an easy time giving out town-reads as they know who the town are. Mind you, this assumes that TDL is town and I can't say I'm confident in that deduction whatsoever.

I had five posts from TDL to deal with at the time and wasn't expecting any more of them. I doled out judgment on what I thought of those five posts. Just repeating myself now. How about you? How do read on TDL now?

His reactive scum-read of NU was also terrible. I don't recall SP scum-reading anyone else or making much of an effort to scum-hunt, which scum would find difficult as they carry the guilt of being scum, so scum-reading someone pushing SP after they stated a scum-read on him = suspicious.
Aside from TDL and Never Unlucky, I had no reads to give at that point.

So your response to me calling you out for being ridiculously confident in a read is to...just say that you explained the read in the thread? The issue isn't about clearing up WHY you town-read him. It's that you town-read him too strongly based on minor or NAI points and that said points are enough that you'd sheep him.

"I see your point of view but you're wrong." - Strong.
Thanks. Now try looking at things from my point of view. You probably can't but it wouldn't hurt to try. Imagine:
Your're a "weak" player; however, you know better, or at least know enough to keep your dignity.
Another "weak" player levels a baseless accusation against you. You give him some time, but it's quite clear he isn't reading your posts or thinking about what they mean.
An "experienced" player jumps onto your train.
Another "experienced" player jumps onto your train.
You ask, why are they on my train? If they were scum, what would they have to gain? Could they be town?
If they are scum, they would be able to sheep a player into someone's death (i.e. Iced and Duckk jumping onto my train in WoM), get rid of a town player, and not have repercussions. They could additionally hide all scum hunting into saying, "I've found a scum!"
If they were town, why haven't they considered if I could be town or not? ->they're tunneling, but you're not tunneling.

Ah yes, do enlighten us with what you intend on doing other than actually responding to the case against you.
At the time, I did not even think that anyone would take Never Unlucky's side. All he did was ask me questions that I had already answered, and then pretend that I didn't answer them. <- might be missing some context.

SP's latest post just reminded me of what I was going to add...
SP didn't respond to this point about his reactive scum-reading of a player who scum-read him first.
See above post.


He then gives out a town-read to a player who seems to be agreeing with him.
The scum are teaming up on me, I need to team up on them. Real point: Scum are afraid of town, town-reading each other.
I sense a pattern of reactive play and self-serving reads here.
I'll get whatever I can. I'm town, I need it.

Do you have an ETA for that? I might decide to collect all of my points into one post to make sure you don't miss anything depending on that.

Sorry, I missed this post. In the future, just assume that the ETA is too long for you to stay up for. The only times when I'll be on a computer and that you will be on is when you have insomnia. It's just the timezones. You can hope to have detailed discussions with secondpassing on Mondays and Wednesdays.

All other times I'll probably be posting towards you from a phone. Or wall posts I make in the night like this one.

[secondpassing]

Spoiler : All the text I wrote in the post above, for quoting purposes :

In retrospect, I was thinking I was starting conversation a whole lot more actually creating conversation.

I did.I have a problem against this. So you read NU because you read me as scum? Something like that? because it seems like you're just hopping onto the CHOO CHOO.

I would fix my reads list to have Mesk as Town. Nothing caught onto me again after I re-read. (There's a passing of ~30 minutes of time between this post and the post above.)

Just because you find them NAI, doesn't mean I do. Maybe the wording wasn't very good? I probably should have said I slightly town read TDL. If I slightly town read TDL, then based upon that, everyone else would have been more likely to be scum. As already stated, I was trying to encourage trains. So I voted you.

Basically, I'm not a fence sitter.

Answers that he would have given would have made him seem bad (unless of course he actually has a different answer to these):
My RVS vote is in the garbage.
I don't have an alternative strategy, I'm just going to piss on yours.
Oh, I'm not going to attack your posts, no no, why would I ever do that? /s

I had five posts from TDL to deal with at the time and wasn't expecting any more of them. I doled out judgment on what I thought of those five posts. Just repeating myself now. How about you? How do read on TDL now?

Aside from TDL and Never Unlucky, I had no reads to give at that point.

Thanks. Now try looking at things from my point of view. You probably can't but it wouldn't hurt to try. Imagine:
Your're a "weak" player; however, you know better, or at least know enough to keep your dignity.
Another "weak" player levels a baseless accusation against you. You give him some time, but it's quite clear he isn't reading your posts or thinking about what they mean.
An "experienced" player jumps onto your train.
Another "experienced" player jumps onto your train.
You ask, why are they on my train? If they were scum, what would they have to gain? Could they be town?
If they are scum, they would be able to sheep a player into someone's death (i.e. Iced and Duckk jumping onto my train in WoM), get rid of a town player, and not have repercussions. They could additionally hide all scum hunting into saying, "I've found a scum!"
If they were town, why haven't they considered if I could be town or not? ->they're tunneling, but you're (Calix) not tunneling.

At the time, I did not even think that anyone would take Never Unlucky's side. All he did was ask me questions that I had already answered, and then pretend that I didn't answer them. <- might be missing some context.

See above post.

Sorry, I missed this post. In the future, just assume that the ETA is too long for you to stay up for. The only times when I'll be on a computer and that you will be on is when you have insomnia. It's just the timezones. You can hope to have detailed discussions with secondpassing on Mondays and Wednesdays.

All other times I'll probably be posting towards you from a phone. Or wall posts I make in the night like this one.

[secondpassing]

I've said secondpassing was town since the beginning? I never second guessed secondpassing lol thats one of the main reasons im thinkning NU is scum right now. judging by the size of the trains I dont believe that its all town on both and im inclined to believe scum would pile on one train instead of splitting the trains unless one of the trains is scum. so I am very confident that one of them is scum. and im pretty sure that NU is the scum between them.

After a re-read/ISOish of your posts, evidence says otherwise. Anyway, what have you been drinking? I'm just curious.

[secondpassing]

After a re-read/ISOish of your posts, evidence says otherwise. Anyway, what have you been drinking? I'm just curious.

Ugh- clarification-

evidence is against the statement that says you "have never second guessed secondpassing".

[secondpassing]

-vote TheDarkestLight

Do I need to explain this vote? No I don't.
Anyway, I'm going to wait for Calix to respond to my post, but I'm going to wave my Finger of Suspicion in the air at her as earthworm-writhing-in-pain-oddly as I can.

Depending on how my energy holds up tomorrow -I'll be busy- I may simply be lynched before I get a chance to respond.

TOWN

Null
Eggy- been doing a lot of wishy-washy. Can't get a read, but maybe that means that I'm just too paranoid. Would actually recommend you not lynch this guy. Lynch my scum reads after you lynch me if you decide to lynch me.

Scum
Iced_Monopoly- Just watch this guy. I was going to wonder if I wanted to get into reading him further but I ran out of energy. Gut tells me there is something off.

Never Unlucky- If you think my point about the signup page is something I'm just reading too hard into, lynch this guy. Shows NO flexibility. If he does not concede either a. he was being stubborn or b. he was reading my posts wrong OR c. he tries to cover up lynching me by saying that I was just a really bad town YOU LYNCH THIS GUY.

He has been misrepping my points since point one. Don't let him get away with the, "you aren't answering my questions" shtick. It's scummy. Like heck.

Calix- I find her jumping on my train as opportunistic. As a player that has lead many mislynches, some of them on me, I expect her to know better. Doled out a town read onto NU very very early on.

TheDarkestLight- Lurking scum. Only stopped lurking to throw shade on me and jump onto my train. Watch as he justifies my mislynch by saying that I was a bad player.

[Iced_Monopoly]

-vote TheDarkestLight

Do I need to explain this vote? No I don't.
Anyway, I'm going to wait for Calix to respond to my post, but I'm going to wave my Finger of Suspicion in the air at her as earthworm-writhing-in-pain-oddly as I can.

Depending on how my energy holds up tomorrow -I'll be busy- I may simply be lynched before I get a chance to respond.

TOWN

Null
Eggy- been doing a lot of wishy-washy. Can't get a read, but maybe that means that I'm just too paranoid. Would actually recommend you not lynch this guy. Lynch my scum reads after you lynch me if you decide to lynch me.

Scum
Iced_Monopoly- Just watch this guy. I was going to wonder if I wanted to get into reading him further but I ran out of energy. Gut tells me there is something off.

Never Unlucky- If you think my point about the signup page is something I'm just reading too hard into, lynch this guy. Shows NO flexibility. If he does not concede either a. he was being stubborn or b. he was reading my posts wrong OR c. he tries to cover up lynching me by saying that I was just a really bad town YOU LYNCH THIS GUY.

He has been misrepping my points since point one. Don't let him get away with the, "you aren't answering my questions" shtick. It's scummy. Like heck.

Calix- I find her jumping on my train as opportunistic. As a player that has lead many mislynches, some of them on me, I expect her to know better. Doled out a town read onto NU very very early on.

TheDarkestLight- Lurking scum. Only stopped lurking to throw shade on me and jump onto my train. Watch as he justifies my mislynch by saying that I was a bad player.

Is there a reason your town list is empty, or are you saying that everyone is scum?

[Eggy]

Is there a reason your town list is empty, or are you saying that everyone is scum?

U can assume anyone who he didnt mention in either the scum or null section are town. After his last post I am even more sure he is town.

[Eggy]

After a re-read/ISOish of your posts, evidence says otherwise. Anyway, what have you been drinking? I'm just curious.

Been drinking gin and beer mostly. But uhh dont think I ever scum read u. Maybe when I was scum reading mesk but that was dumb but I definately had u as my first town read. Im sober now btw.

[Iced_Monopoly]

U can assume anyone who he didnt mention in either the scum or null section are town. After his last post I am even more sure he is town.

Why would I assume that when he had a heading for town, but failed to fill it with anything?

[Calix]

Why the hell is Never Unlucky still a train? Unless he's upped his scum play by the power of ten since Politico, I doubt he's scum now.

i hadnt read much before I posted that just had to reply because my sanity was in question. Anyway I was intoxicated most of yesterday. I think everyone should completely disregard everything I was previously saying. Mesk is not scum I was just stupid. and in the slight chance she is we got bigger fish to fry. [vote]Never Unlucky[vote]. I dont remember NU pressuring anyone other than second passing( I might be wrong). I strongly believe secondpassing is town and your are all mistaking badness for scummyness, he reminds me of most of the players in the begginer game. scum reading people who scum read him.

Dont think scum would ever be so obvious even if he is a beginner. Also I dont see deathworlds putting him as scum just doesnt seem like something a host would do. Im not sure how roles are assigned though so I dont know.

My lynch pool for today is NU, Unknown, Tdl or spruance I will not vote outside of those unless im faced with substantial evidence.

SP isn't new.

"Too dumb to be scum" - Strong.

DW randomises the player list. Using host meta is the most retarded thing I've seen this game and implying that SP is so bad that no host would put him as scum is a hilarious argument.

He has his moments as town, rare as they are. I've yet to see a decent scum performance from him.

Calix touched on this. She characterized it wrongly though.
Never Unlucky did not unsign because he wanted Calix in the game, he unsigned because Spruance, Slayer, and possibly me were in it. He made the effort to include me in the quote. If Calix were to join, it would "balance" the level of good play to bad play or something.

Never Unlucky unsigned out of frustration. People get frustrated at town players fighting with them, or with an unresponsive town.

No, fucktard. He literally told me on Skype why he unsigned, otherwise I wouldn't have said it.

Stop using other game threads for your reads.

---

I'll admit that I only skimmed over the Iced/ Unknown debacle as I just woke up, but most of it just seems to be a bunch of chest-thumping and stupidity. Something something Iced is a snarky arsehole, Unknown gets petulant, whines, completely misunderstands Iced and then backs down when Iced corrects him.

I did.I have a problem against this. So you read NU because you read me as scum? Something like that? because it seems like you're just hopping onto the CHOO CHOO.

No, I read NU because of how he was countering your arguments, which read like a town trying to take the advice that I gave him during the Beginner's Game. You wouldn't know that, so I'm not using that as a point against you. I'm also meta-reading him as town; he is much more aggressive than he is as scum (which scum have little incentive to do as it draws attention to them) and his reads don't feel forced or like he is painting players as suspicious.

He's more serious than normal but that's not enough to make me change my read.

I was the third person to vote you and I used my own reasoning for it across multiple posts (to use your own wording) while following up on it. (as proven here) Explain how that is characteristic of me 'hopping onto a train' or admit that you're misrepresenting my vote to discredit it.

I would fix my reads list to have Mesk as Town. Nothing caught onto me again after I re-read. (There's a passing of ~30 minutes of time between this post and the post above.)

So yet another person siding with you is Town? This is the most survivalistic play I've seen since Improv Mafia, something that becomes even more damning in a setup where only 2/3 Mafia have to die for them to lose.

Just because you find them NAI, doesn't mean I do. Maybe the wording wasn't very good? I probably should have said I slightly town read TDL. If I slightly town read TDL, then based upon that, everyone else would have been more likely to be scum. As already stated, I was trying to encourage trains. So I voted you.

Yes, can you explain why those points aren't NAI? I think (?) that you scum-read TDL now but if you are going to reveal what you look for in a town read, you should try and explain your reasoning more.

I felt that he was attacking my arguments for no reason. Which is scum trying to grasp for a lynch target. Secondly, players who only attack other player's comments are scum. Of the completed games I've read both Borderline Crazy Dealers and pisskop have both done this. Pisskop basically said, "You don't have a case against me. Piss off." the whole game. S-FM FF7


He's avoided answering the questions that he feels would make him seem like a hypocrite. Questions such as: "Where is your RVS vote? What is your alternative strategy? Are you just going to attack my posts?"

Answers that he would have given would have made him seem bad (unless of course he actually has a different answer to these):
My RVS vote is in the garbage.
I don't have an alternative strategy, I'm just going to piss on yours.
Oh, I'm not going to attack your posts, no no, why would I ever do that? /s

You say "people who attack others are scum"...then you cite pisskop (A TOWN PLAYER) as one of your examples. And the second example had nothing to do with my alignment (as I was the main poster on BCD) because I was trying out a new playstyle and just happened to roll scum while doing that. Your argument is "playstyle variations = scummy" which is something that you call him out for doing.

You have also tried to be aggressive and attack players in a similar manner in past games as town. Your logic lacks any kind of backing or consistency and just seems to be used to discredit NU's play.

The only valid point raised here is "he evaded answering questions early on" (I recall this being an accurate recount)

I null-read TDL for I do not think he has done anything that he cannot do as both alignments. It's his MO to try and play the exact same way as all alignments. (which is what everyone should try and do; he's just less shitty at it compared to the usual scrub on here)

Thanks. Now try looking at things from my point of view. You probably can't but it wouldn't hurt to try. Imagine:
Your're a "weak" player; however, you know better, or at least know enough to keep your dignity.
Another "weak" player levels a baseless accusation against you. You give him some time, but it's quite clear he isn't reading your posts or thinking about what they mean.
An "experienced" player jumps onto your train.
Another "experienced" player jumps onto your train.
You ask, why are they on my train? If they were scum, what would they have to gain? Could they be town?
If they are scum, they would be able to sheep a player into someone's death (i.e. Iced and Duckk jumping onto my train in WoM), get rid of a town player, and not have repercussions. They could additionally hide all scum hunting into saying, "I've found a scum!"
If they were town, why haven't they considered if I could be town or not? ->they're tunneling, but you're (Calix) not tunneling.

At the time, I did not even think that anyone would take Never Unlucky's side. All he did was ask me questions that I had already answered, and then pretend that I didn't answer them. <- might be missing some context.

See above post.

Given that many players agree with the 'baseless' reasoning (more players than there are scum, that is), it makes no sense to characterise it as such at this stage.

Using experience to determine reads is painfully retarded and - as with pretty much everything used so far by you - indicative of jack shit. If Duck's posts about who I thought the "best players" were in IM 2.0 told me anything, it's that.

There are more sheep votes with terrible reasoning on NU's train (which built quickly and gained four voters for minor reasoning), yet that never gave you pause. Meanwhile your train took time to form, everyone has given different reasoning for voting you and has waned on several occasions. (which explains the disparate votes around midday)

So no, nobody 'jumped' on your train.

Does anyone even have reasoning for why you're town outside of "he sounds like it" and "host would never give him scum"?

Scum not wanting town to town-read each other does NOT justify town-reading people because they town-read you. That's survival-orientated because it comes from a mindset where you only care about your reputation in the thread which is exactly what scum would do.

The only thing that makes me second-guess myself is the first line of this part. I can't really explain it well, it just seems quite bitter/ angry. However he's lashing out at someone who scum-reads me and scum could do that too as it's only cropping up now at EOD.

Null
Eggy- been doing a lot of wishy-washy. Can't get a read, but maybe that means that I'm just too paranoid. Would actually recommend you not lynch this guy. Lynch my scum reads after you lynch me if you decide to lynch me.

Given you have five scum-reads...no shit you shouldn't want to lynch a null read first.

Iced is a gut read. Can't really do anything with that...

Your point about the signups page is objectively WRONG and isn't something that should have been dragged up in the first place. Being 'inflexible' isn't a scum tell - that doesn't even make sense.

"CALIX IS SO FUCKING SKILLED GUYS IF SHE ISN'T TOWN-READING ME THEN SHE MUST BE SCUM."

Piss off. Instead of whining about 'experienced' players, try working on your piss-poor scum-play. I can even Skype you to help out your sorry arse.

Already countered the opportunistic point. I like how NOBODY on the NU train strikes you as opportunistic whatsoever despite the poor quality of the train. No surprise given he's currently tied with you for votes.

Lurking isn't alignment-indicative and you've seen enough town-aligned lurkers in game to realise this. I also would not characterise TDL's vote as 'jumping onto your train' as it happened AFTER he interacted with you. (aka there was PROGRESSION from him entering the thread to him voting)

[Calix]

Why would I assume that when he had a heading for town, but failed to fill it with anything?

I just assumed he ran out of time to explain them/ didn't want to as he said something along those lines for your read.

[Calix]

Vote Count 2.0

• Never Unlucky (3 [L-3]):
  Iced_Monopoly, Eggy, Mesk514
  

  ---

  secondpassing (3 [L-3]):
  Calix, TheDarkestLight, Never Unlucky
  

  ---

  Spruance (1 [L-5]):
  DarknessB
  

  ---

  TheDarkestLight (2 [L-4]):
  secondpassing, Spruance

Given that the first two wagons, one of them being SP, have been pretty stagnant ever since SP vs NU became a thing (save for Eggy switching trains/ TDL joining the SP train) this reminds me of WM vs Tracer.

Since SP is currently voting for TDL, it makes me think that TDL is a scum-driven counter-wagon that started once NU's train died down a little.

I have no idea what SP is doing with his bizarre fucking signup thread theory though. That's got to be one of the shittiest reasons to doubt a read I've ever seen.

[Iced_Monopoly]

Alright, well im not convinced on a lynch on either of the two current largest trains (SP & NU) from a scum reading perspective; SP I town read on one of his very early posts, and since then ive seen his actions as pissed-off town more than defensive scum. Primarily because I too lost focus on a lot of the interactions with other players and spent most my time on defence from bad attacks. NUs play to me isnt pinging me with a scum vibe either, and he has a considerable amount of content to look at, ive read majority of their interactions as TvT after a reread.

Spruance and Mesk are concerning me considerably with their lack of interaction and involvement today. Spruance has been absent for nearly the entire (game) day, posting a reads list with little to no explanations for majority of the players on it, and mesk (who had explained that she was tired from having been busy the past (real) day) has also managed to avoid a lot of the spotlight and interactions. Despite this, both have read the game to enough of a degree to be comfortable placing votes. I know both justified their votes (at least I know spruance did, fairly certain on mesk) but I dont like thats the only interactions theyve had before dissapearing again

I have a few notes on other players, but nothing substantial or worth sharing. The only player I feel ive completely neglected all game is TDL, to the point where Ive hardly read his posts in depth, or analysed his interactions or comments made about it. Not really sure why, probably because I became distracted with unknown.

For me at the moment, its either voting on two town (not scum) reads that the flip from either would reveal a lot of information on who to target/question on day 2 and beyond (the sacrifical long game), or voting on two textbook lurking scum that a flip from either would glean little information.

inb4 "Iced is obviously scum, he wants to lynch town reads, you never lynch town reads, blah blah blah" But in a game where we have upto 4 mislynches, I believe that a potential mislynch on a target that reveals a lot of information > a potentional mislynch on a player that reveals little to no information (on day 1). With that in mind, im maintaining my vote on NU until a better candidate is found, or mesk/spruance appears or is more deeply discussed by a majority of players

[Calix]

Alright, well im not convinced on a lynch on either of the two current largest trains (SP & NU) from a scum reading perspective; SP I town read on one of his very early posts, and since then ive seen his actions as pissed-off town more than defensive scum. Primarily because I too lost focus on a lot of the interactions with other players and spent most my time on defence from bad attacks. NUs play to me isnt pinging me with a scum vibe either, and he has a considerable amount of content to look at, ive read majority of their interactions as TvT after a reread.

What do you make of my points against SP and how he's responded in general?

I don't see why he would react so badly to being pushed by NU, especially as it was early on (when he had little heat on him and when he said that he...wanted...to start a conversation using his posts) - him being angry when someone takes him up on that doesn't check out with his explanation.

Spruance and Mesk are concerning me considerably with their lack of interaction and involvement today. Spruance has been absent for nearly the entire (game) day, posting a reads list with little to no explanations for majority of the players on it, and mesk (who had explained that she was tired from having been busy the past (real) day) has also managed to avoid a lot of the spotlight and interactions. Despite this, both have read the game to enough of a degree to be comfortable placing votes. I know both justified their votes (at least I know spruance did, fairly certain on mesk) but I dont like thats the only interactions theyve had before dissapearing again

From her post, I think Mesk is in a similar boat to Unknown (who has RL commitments until Friday his time) so I'd expect both of them to up their content from D2 onward. Definitely worth looking at tomorrow imo.

Spruance not explaining his reads is his standard MO. His explanation for TDL is the most substantial thing I've seen him do in a while.

How has your Unknown read progressed from your recent interactions with him, @Iced_Monopoly ?

I wasn't a massive fan of your reasoning earlier given the time but it makes more sense at this point. I fail to see how SP is the inferior choice of the two to you. The fact that you put them in the same boat is ridiculous, really.

Question. What would a flip (either alignment) reveal about players to you? You talk about informational flips but haven't gone into specifics.

[Unknown1234]

Unknown1234	Spruance	SecondPassing	Never Unlucky
Town	Town	Town	Town
TDL	DarknessB	DarknessB	Calix
DarknessB	SecondPassing	SecondPassing	Eggy
NeverUnlucky	Unknown1234	Unknown1234	NeverUnlucky
SecondPassing	Mesk514	Mesk514	Spruance
Mafia	Eggy	Eggy	Mafia
Calix	Mafia	Mafia	Iced_Monopoly
Mesk514	TDL	TDL	Mesk514
Iced_Monopoly	Never Unlucky	Never Unlucky	TDL
	Calix	Calix	SecondPassing
	Iced_Monopoly	Iced_Monopoly	Null
			DarknessB
			Unknown1234

So this is mostly for me to reference when required for VCA later on, but its also interesting to look at for any potential blocs that may form or be formed. I like that the 4 people creating reads lists for a decent part all town read eachother, or omit eachother from scum lists at the minimum, and that despite an almost unanimous decision that Myself (especially), TDL, and Calix are all scum, 3/4 of them have not put a vote on, or attempted to start a train against any one of us.

I also wanted to use this for interactions, but spruance has posted too little at the moment to draw anything meaningful from this.

Well, I realized after being confused that the people below the name were the reads of said person. I thought it meant that was who was read by who and what they were read. A lot of my posts won't make sense anymore (Example to Eggy)

[Unknown1234]

Just looking at the votes, Eggy has been rubbing me the wrong way, and I know I've said a few notes at this point, I can cover more of it when I'm free. However, I think it also bugs me that he's on Never Unluvky again. He claims he's not sheeping people but that is actually what he's doing. He's also using the same counter argument that Iced used against me. They are also both voting NU who I believe to be town. This feels suspucious to me, and I'm interested to how the rest will play out.

[Iced_Monopoly]

What do you make of my points against SP and how he's responded in general?

I don't see why he would react so badly to being pushed by NU, especially as it was early on (when he had little heat on him and when he said that he...wanted...to start a conversation using his posts) - him being angry when someone takes him up on that doesn't check out with his explanation.

The same as what they already are, perhaps im empathizing with SP too heavily and thats causing me to overlook or assosciate his responses with what I may have done, but for now Im still reading him town. What I dont like is the continued discussion on the topic of people he agrees with(/agree with him) are his town reads, and the opposite are scum. For starters its already disproven, as he reads me scum and I read him town. Secondly its too shit of a play for anybody ever to make, I mean maybe you'd get away with it in a fast pace game like the mod, but not in an fm game. Clearly its a coincidence on who his reads are aligning with, otherwise I would be in his town basket.

How has your Unknown read progressed from your recent interactions with him, @Iced_Monopoly ?

Still undecided, I believe some of his actions reek of scum behaviour, but his style is coming across townie, as annoying as it is.

Question. What would a flip (either alignment) reveal about players to you? You talk about informational flips but haven't gone into specifics.

Not willing to disclose till D2, as what im looking for may cause players to tailor their posts/styles to avoid suspicion. Its nothing exceptionally exciting, but id like it to remain undefined non the less.

[Never Unlucky]

Hm, who is she voting? Hmmmmm.

Voting =/= Pressuring -- I was put at L-2 and felt no pressure whatsoever because the case on me was non-existant. You felt more pressure than me, and you were sitting at L-5.

Yeah, and guess what he posted?
Summary of TDL's posts-
"Hey I didn't say that... <later>
Wow secondpassing you're so full of yourself.
You change your town on me.
You have to be scum, or bad." -TheComingDarkness

Those aren't reasons why one would scum-read another one. You're admitting to OMGUS again.

[ABOUT TOWN-READING SPRUANCE] Before he posted, by POE yes. After he posted his reads, more so.

Again...

As I, DB and Calix said -- Contribution =/= Alignment.
Just because you say it, doesn't mean it's true. True.. Contribution =/= Alignment, but Contribution = Alignment when taken with context.
You should read the third sentence of that post. Has the context.

This is only true if you play with other bad players. Good players will contribute in any given context as scum.

While she supports the case you made on me (@Calix, is this true?) I am scum reading her for townreading you according to that post.

You are scum-reading (AND VOTING!) someone based on pre-flips association on Day 1?! You made 0 points on her. Also, I'm pretty sure Calix isn't town-reading me based on 'that' post but moreso based on my town meta, tone and motivation.

This post regards Never Unlucky's post. @Never Unlucky [/QUOTE]

[Calix]

The same as what they already are, perhaps im empathizing with SP too heavily and thats causing me to overlook or assosciate his responses with what I may have done, but for now Im still reading him town.

What makes you emphasise with him so? And why back away from that answer? The "perhaps" part seems like you are shying away from that.

What I dont like is the continued discussion on the topic of people he agrees with(/agree with him) are his town reads, and the opposite are scum. For starters its already disproven, as he reads me scum and I read him town.

He DID scum-read you before I called him out because he was voting with someone he claimed to have scum-read. Then he backed down from that scum-read. That's not a coincidence.

Secondly its too shit of a play for anybody ever to make, I mean maybe you'd get away with it in a fast pace game like the mod, but not in an fm game. Clearly its a coincidence on who his reads are aligning with, otherwise I would be in his town basket.

"Too dumb to be scum" - The terrible arguments are real this game.

Having a behaviour be repeated with his reads =/= coincidence. What the fuck are you smoking? Scum absolutely WILL play reactively and try to keep people on-side so that they can get by with enough support.

What behaviour 'reeks' of scum to you and how is tone enough to invalidate said points? People don't stop being scummy just because they aren't scummy in other places.

Not willing to disclose till D2, as what im looking for may cause players to tailor their posts/styles to avoid suspicion. Its nothing exceptionally exciting, but id like it to remain undefined non the less.

Noted. Could be a cop-out to avoid giving reasoning but I used similar logic as town in OW so nbd.

[Never Unlucky]

I don't know how to interprete your play this game. You and Calix have spoken a lot, and it's very clear you are trying to copy her style. Whether it's because you are scum and want to seem town or because you are just trying to improve your play.

I don't feel like I'm copying her play style. This is pretty similar to my D2 play in IC (minus the trolling) where I tunneled Eggy. I copied Calix's play style D1 in Matrix, and it's different from the one I'm using now. Calix doesn't often explicitly call others stupid, I do.

I don't understand how my posts gave you the sense of a scum trying to appear town, rofl.

I think it's obvious to me you are trying way too hard and feel over confident in your reads. Doesn't feel right.

Trying way too hard? How? Is it even AI? Why are you bringing this up?

Over-confident in my reads? Bitch, please. I literally have no strong scum-read and have a couple "?" in my list.

[Never Unlucky]

i hadnt read much before I posted that just had to reply because my sanity was in question. Anyway I was intoxicated most of yesterday. I think everyone should completely disregard everything I was previously saying. Mesk is not scum I was just stupid. and in the slight chance she is we got bigger fish to fry. [vote]Never Unlucky[vote]. I dont remember NU pressuring anyone other than second passing( I might be wrong). I strongly believe secondpassing is town and your are all mistaking badness for scummyness, he reminds me of most of the players in the begginer game. scum reading people who scum read him.

Dont think scum would ever be so obvious even if he is a beginner. Also I dont see deathworlds putting him as scum just doesnt seem like something a host would do. Im not sure how roles are assigned though so I dont know.

My lynch pool for today is NU, Unknown, Tdl or spruance I will not vote outside of those unless im faced with substantial evidence.

tl;dr NU only pressured SP, so he is scum.

SP pressured no one. Eggy pressured no one. Saying Unknown pressured Iced is generous. Mesk pressured no one. TDL sort of pressured SP and only SP. Spruance pressured no one.

6/10 players didn't pressure, but you're voting me for only pressuring SP.

Tunneling isn't AI. You've made no points on my case and "I don't think scum would be this obvious" isn't an argument to town-read SP. As ThePaladin says, "Too scum to be scum is invalid."

[Never Unlucky]

First post NU makes is a flag. This mistake could possibly refer to me forgetting to finish my post??? This marginalization is because the things I quoted I didn't think too much of? Where I answer RNG/personal stuff answer

-

And I early town-read TDL, what's the difference?

That's not what it was about. Mesk's pre-defense was the typical scum manner of delivery. DOesn't have anything to do with reads.

1. I don't remember, but I stirred it up. You were looking for intent and I missed this the first couple times I read this post. Here's the answer:
Anyway, I was going to ask people who they were more inclined to lynch this game, then I realized that people can just vote... and that I was already voting someone.

Except that those posts weren't what stirred up the convo, yo. The weirdness of your posts were what stirred it up. There's no way you tried to act weird and draw attention on you to stir up conversation.

2. The answer was in the quote you quoted: Day one needs to be moved otherwise people sit and wait and die. Second answer: If you feel like people don't 'need to post', do you feel that people 'don't need to post'?

As I told Unknown, I didn't mean that people don't need to post. I meant that posting =/= town which is what you were implying.

1. answers: Awesome, I managed to stir up conversation. I made conversation happen.

Repeating myself for the 10th time. You shouldn't take credit for creating conversation based on a slip of yours, that's beyond Eggy-stupid.

2. You sit back by not solidly offering an opinion.

Not solidly offering an opinion?

3. I posed this question you didn't answer- I take it you're not going to participate in RVS? What is your alternative plan?

A) RVS is not a plan -- it's a way of starting the game and creating discussion. B) I told you, with reads.

1. answer: can you focus on what has actually happened? I think you focused on my meme usage because you bring it up and fail to realize that I made conversation happen.

"Saying I am focused on your shitty memes is a very big mischaracterization, I've made one on-the-side comment on it in a ~5 paragraphs post -- Scums tend to mischaracterize situations more than town do."

2. Scary how? Oh wait, that's a question let me answer it for you. You're scared simply because the way I think is different than yours.

Scary for the town, you lack logic. What would happen in a Mylo/lylo situation with you left alive? A ML.

3. answer was in the quote you quoted: It appears you have a hard time random voting someone too. Where's your vote?

You tell me, where's my vote?

4. That is how the game is won. You discuss.

I totally said the opposite, GG. zzz

5. You expected too much at that point. You were biased against me early on.

I expected you to make a reads list, that's not too much to ask. I've been asked to do one less than two hours in in the past, and I haven't failed to provide one.

You were the last person I was biased with/against at this point in the game. I had never had the misfortune of playing with you in the past.

As you can see, I've actually already answered most of your points you made about me.

You were deliberately refusing to answer, so no.

Spoiler : Examples. :

I don't need to explain how you were attacking my posts, it's clear that you are.

I don't have to explain how my first few posts would stir up conversation

I have no idea what you expect of reads four hours into the game.

[Never Unlucky]

Calix touched on this. She characterized it wrongly though.
Never Unlucky did not unsign because he wanted Calix in the game, he unsigned because Spruance, Slayer, and possibly me were in it. He made the effort to include me in the quote. If Calix were to join, it would "balance" the level of good play to bad play or something.

Never Unlucky unsigned out of frustration. People get frustrated at town players fighting with them, or with an unresponsive town.

You're a funny one, aren't you?

I'm still in the /sign list because Calix /signed. I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but the world isn't turning around your head.

I replied to the frustration bullshit.

I'll re-look at it, but I think you're mixing him up with Spruance. In my opinion, Spruance did way more shifting of reads; however, neither did it in a way that suggested to me that they were scum.
I used to read heavily into things, and I discovered that I started to scum read experienced town players (who later flipped town) exhibit many scum tells. Just because flip-flopping on reads looks suspicious, I can't sense an anti-town intent from them.

You think they've been opportunistic?

If anything you're the one shifting your reads. You base your reads on who town/scum-reads you, and when Spruance posted his reads list, you magically agreed with all of the reads he had made. If this isn't shifting...

[Never Unlucky]

If I may so add, Never Unlucky actually misapplied your post to me. So yes, other players are having a bit of trouble reading it.

I did not. zzz

I don't know why you continue to believe im not responding based on laziness. I don't avoid posts btw. I actually have a head injury (can't say for sure if concussion, not likely) but it makes it difficult for me to read everything.

It isn't unknown that you don't read others' posts. Don't get me started again.

Also, you are misrepping Iced.

Let me further my point on why I believe the chart wasn't even made accurately and thrown together to look like effort.

1.) my reads list didn't have Spruance on it, and apparently I town-read him.

2.) Mesk514 never scum-read me, she actually said she agreed with most of my points.

3.) I never said Null on NU, it was pretty clear it was a town-read.

4.) Never Unlucky doesn't town-read himself.

Maybe there's more, but as a rough view you can see my perspective.

2) Mesk wasn't in the chart.
3) This is where I appeared in the chart.
4) I do.

Don't try making me believe you're reading everyone's posts.

Me and Never Unlucky had a fight/dicussion/heated debate/mud sling I voted him, he voted me. Then this morning he unsigned from that game.
I might be reading too much into it.

Calling our interaction a fight or a heated debate is an overstatement.

[Spruance]

It's interesting that Unknown still hasn't placed his vote...

idk TDL seems like the best lynch for today unless you want to argue for secondpassing, but I don't think never unlucky should be the lynch (yes I know this goes against my reads list)

[Never Unlucky]

Null
Eggy- been doing a lot of wishy-washy. Can't get a read, but maybe that means that I'm just too paranoid. Would actually recommend you not lynch this guy. Lynch my scum reads after you lynch me if you decide to lynch me.

"Lynch my scum-reads" -- This is off the charts cringeworthy. A) You're asking the town to lynch you which is the last thing a townie should do. B) You're saying that those who are voting who are 100% scum. C)You're expecting the town to follow you after the number of slips you've made.

Never Unlucky- If you think my point about the signup page is something I'm just reading too hard into, lynch this guy. Shows NO flexibility. If he does not concede either a. he was being stubborn or b. he was reading my posts wrong OR c. he tries to cover up lynching me by saying that I was just a really bad town YOU LYNCH THIS GUY.

Using the caps lock to have me lynched shows that you're pretty confident in your read... Yet, you admit that you can forsee me being town...

Your ONE point on me is that I am tunneling you. Tunneling is NAI. You're shit.

He has been misrepping my points since point one. Don't let him get away with the, "you aren't answering my questions" shtick. It's scummy. Like heck.

Oh, that's new. It's the first time you say I've misrepped you. If I really had misrepresented you, you would have mentionned it earlier.

Calix- I find her jumping on my train as opportunistic. As a player that has lead many mislynches, some of them on me, I expect her to know better. Doled out a town read onto NU very very early on.

Town-reads TDL after 5 post -> Scum-reads Calix for town-reading me early on.
Legit.

And you don't find Iced, Eggy and Mesk voting me opportunistic? Especially considering that you're scum-reading me for tunneling you, that Mesk hasn't given a reason to her vote, that Iced isn't sure how he reads me and that Eggy is voting me because he OUTRIGHT ASSUMES this interaction is TvS, you should be more than worried about the people on my train.
TheDarkestLight- Lurking scum. Only stopped lurking to throw shade on me and jump onto my train. Watch as he justifies my mislynch by saying that I was a bad player.

Where do you make the difference between lurking scum and lurking town? Spruance has been lurking, yet, you seem to town-read him.

You are a bad player. Getting mislynched as a good player is rare.

[Spruance]

Where do you make the difference between lurking scum and lurking town? Spruance has been lurking, yet, you seem to town-read him.

You are a bad player. Getting mislynched as a good player is rare.

Would that make me a good player then? xd

[Never Unlucky]

Alright, well im not convinced on a lynch on either of the two current largest trains (SP & NU) from a scum reading perspective; SP I town read on one of his very early posts, and since then ive seen his actions as pissed-off town more than defensive scum. Primarily because I too lost focus on a lot of the interactions with other players and spent most my time on defence from bad attacks. NUs play to me isnt pinging me with a scum vibe either, and he has a considerable amount of content to look at, ive read majority of their interactions as TvT after a reread.

I, too, sort of feel like SP is town. His tone doesn't seem scummy and I can't see why a scum would draw this much attention to him (Yes, I know, I'm using "too X to be X" argument. zzz)

Spruance and Mesk are concerning me considerably with their lack of interaction and involvement today. Spruance has been absent for nearly the entire (game) day, posting a reads list with little to no explanations for majority of the players on it, and mesk (who had explained that she was tired from having been busy the past (real) day) has also managed to avoid a lot of the spotlight and interactions. Despite this, both have read the game to enough of a degree to be comfortable placing votes. I know both justified their votes (at least I know spruance did, fairly certain on mesk) but I dont like thats the only interactions theyve had before dissapearing again

No, Mesk didn't justify her vote. Mesk's play this game feels a lot like her Matrix scum play. I do not like how she's being town-read by Spruance, Eggy (Why did he change his idea of Mesk without her posting? wtf) and SP.

I agree with your points though. I also think that DB has vanished, his last post goes as far as page 9 or something.

[QUOTE]I have a few notes on other players, but nothing substantial or worth sharing. The only player I feel ive completely neglected all game is TDL, to the point where Ive hardly read his posts in depth, or analysed his interactions or comments made about it. Not really sure why, probably because I became distracted with unknown.

For me at the moment, its either voting on two town (not scum) reads that the flip from either would reveal a lot of information on who to target/question on day 2 and beyond (the sacrifical long game), or voting on two textbook lurking scum that a flip from either would glean little information.[/vote]

I mean, keeping your vote on me and having me lynched really won't reveal any information that we don't already have. You'll realize that the train on me was shit because you guys don't have a case on me. Not to say it's incredibly scummy to vote someone, lynch them, and call that lynch a 'lynch for information'. Town should not do that.

inb4 "Iced is obviously scum, he wants to lynch town reads, you never lynch town reads, blah blah blah" But in a game where we have upto 4 mislynches, I believe that a potential mislynch on a target that reveals a lot of information > a potentional mislynch on a player that reveals little to no information (on day 1). With that in mind, im maintaining my vote on NU until a better candidate is found, or mesk/spruance appears or is more deeply discussed by a majority of players

Blah, you knew I was going to say this. Still, my point stands. My lynch will not reveal any information. Think about it.

[Calix]

Would that make me a good player then? xd

Here's an obligatory "do you have anything relevant to add" post when you could have just posted something important to begin with.

I like the fishing for validation on a fucking mafia site. Legit.

[Calix]

It's interesting that Unknown still hasn't placed his vote...

idk TDL seems like the best lynch for today unless you want to argue for secondpassing, but I don't think never unlucky should be the lynch (yes I know this goes against my reads list)

Why is TDL superior to SP? SP has been slipping all over the place. TDL is going nowhere and also has SP voting for him. Not going there.

You can't just point out a contradiction that you're aware of and then not explain it.

And no, do not try and be 'sassy' and go "lol just did" in response.

[Iced_Monopoly]

No, Mesk didn't justify her vote. Mesk's play this game feels a lot like her Matrix scum play. I do not like how she's being town-read by Spruance, Eggy (Why did he change his idea of Mesk without her posting? wtf) and SP.

Wait what? Eggy back flipped on his 99% mesk confirmed scum without her re-appearing or posting?
I clearly missed this, the fuck is he doing, do you have a post #

[Never Unlucky]

He DID scum-read you before I called him out because he was voting with someone he claimed to have scum-read. Then he backed down from that scum-read. That's not a coincidence.

Also the fact that he changed his vote to TDL after Iced called out Unknown and him for not voting their scum-reads is suspicious.

It's interesting that Unknown still hasn't placed his vote...

idk TDL seems like the best lynch for today unless you want to argue for secondpassing, but I don't think never unlucky should be the lynch (yes I know this goes against my reads list)

How has your read on me evolved?

Would that make me a good player then? xd

You were MLed in AI. Nice try.

Why is TDL superior to SP? SP has been slipping all over the place. TDL is going nowhere and also has SP voting for him. Not going there.

You can't just point out a contradiction that you're aware of and then not explain it.

And no, do not try and be 'sassy' and go "lol just did" in response.

I plan on switching my vote on TDL. I think SP may be town for reasons I stated in my very last post. TDL has done jack shit to be town-read.

Wait what? Eggy back flipped on his 99% mesk confirmed scum without her re-appearing or posting?
I clearly missed this, the fuck is he doing, do you have a post #

Yes he did, lmao.

Sorry, I cannot give you a post # right, I gtg for a while.

[Calix]

I, too, sort of feel like SP is town. His tone doesn't seem scummy and I can't see why a scum would draw this much attention to him (Yes, I know, I'm using "too X to be X" argument. zzz)

Any scum who gets lynched drew too much attention to themselves somehow.

No, Mesk didn't justify her vote. Mesk's play this game feels a lot like her Matrix scum play. I do not like how she's being town-read by Spruance, Eggy (Why did he change his idea of Mesk without her posting? wtf) and SP.

Her outburst felt legit, although there wasn't much there and she hasn't been around since. I hadn't even noticed that with Eggy's read.

Most people have been 'inactive' per se but honestly, I don't mind it because a lot of the posts are on-topic and it's easier to catch up/ pick up on smaller details that you might overlook. It's a nice change of pace.

I agree that your train is absolute shite and has zero progression to it. Mesk vote-and-ran, Iced admits that he doesn't scum-read you, Eggy is voting you again because you only pressured SP...there's no change in those 'scum-reads' on you if you can even call them that and the fact that you're on par with fucking SP is sad.

[Calix]

i hadnt read much before I posted that just had to reply because my sanity was in question. Anyway I was intoxicated most of yesterday. I think everyone should completely disregard everything I was previously saying. Mesk is not scum I was just stupid. and in the slight chance she is we got bigger fish to fry. [vote]Never Unlucky[vote]. I dont remember NU pressuring anyone other than second passing( I might be wrong). I strongly believe secondpassing is town and your are all mistaking badness for scummyness, he reminds me of most of the players in the begginer game. scum reading people who scum read him.

@Iced_Monopoly

[Iced_Monopoly]

What makes you emphasise with him so? And why back away from that answer? The "perhaps" part seems like you are shying away from that.

I empathized with him because we started this game with the same trains of thought, thought processes that to me were the best way to approach the game and that benefitted town the most, therefore i assosciated him with town for sharing these ideas (without having discussed or mentioned them, we drew the same conclusions). So I read his continual posts in a town light and can see their meaning in that perspective for the most part.

The perhaps was because perhaps the above aligned thoughts were the only reason I was reading town perspective and glazing over specific details that others have had objections to. At the end of the day, I wouldnt lynch SP today, but come d2, my opinion may change.

He DID scum-read you before I called him out because he was voting with someone he claimed to have scum-read. Then he backed down from that scum-read. That's not a coincidence.

I recall seeing a post where he still scum read me, but not for the same reasons as a group of other people (after you called him out), but he then later posted another reads list where he had me in the hard scum pile, so I dont think he backed down.

"Too dumb to be scum" - The terrible arguments are real this game.

Yeah, pretty much invalid here. I just dont want to believe that SP would play like that, so a meaningless point to back up a meaningless arguement, sue me.

Having a behaviour be repeated with his reads =/= coincidence. What the fuck are you smoking? Scum absolutely WILL play reactively and try to keep people on-side so that they can get by with enough support.

Except it wasnt repeated, or atleast I am the breaker of that repetition (based on above points). Why did he not bother to even remotely attempt to keep me on his side. (Unless Ive missed a post where im in his town side, but the last I saw, I was still hardline scum).

What behaviour 'reeks' of scum to you and how is tone enough to invalidate said points? People don't stop being scummy just because they aren't scummy in other places.

This is still an internal conflict on how I perceive him. I probably shouldve phrased it as "I see him as making mistakes as town, rather than scum playing a poor town guise".



What im most uncomfortable with is that now 5 players (pretty sure eggy threw me in a scum basket somewhere recently) are reading me scum, 6 if you count yourself on a gut read, and I dont have a single vote on me. Im essentially lynchable right now and yet hardly anyone interacts with me save unknown and yourself. NU has referenced me when talking about others reactions, and TDL mightve once or twice as well, but thats about the extent of it. I know the counter to this arguement is that its my job to also initiate interactions, but I think ive said enough interesting or controversial things now to warrant more attention, especially given all the scum buckets im in.

So the question is why? Id personally like to think its because lynching any of the other current train candidates is easier (arrogant af), but I still believe that the current two trains are TvT, and scum are comfortable pushing both trains, as the outcome of either is garuanteed for them, and taking on a third train appears to be eager-to-lynch by shifting votes around, plus with three of them it would divide their votes and unconsolidate (Apparently thats not a word) their safe trains.

[Iced_Monopoly]

@Iced_Monopoly

Thanks, thats a post/paragraph that definitely doesnt sit well with me at all..

[Iced_Monopoly]

EoD is sometime before 8am for me, its about to hit 1am right now. I honestly dont know if il drag myself out of bed for the game end (its a saturday), so if not, I need to move my vote.

After the reasoning of the backflip made by eggy, and his almost buddying-esque type claim that SP was confirmed town has me unsettled enough that Im willing to move my vote to him.

-vote Eggy

Probably going to be around for another 15mins

[Calix]

I empathized with him because we started this game with the same trains of thought, thought processes that to me were the best way to approach the game and that benefitted town the most, therefore i assosciated him with town for sharing these ideas (without having discussed or mentioned them, we drew the same conclusions). So I read his continual posts in a town light and can see their meaning in that perspective for the most part.

While this is a valid tactic, I'd be wary about that. I fell prey to a similar line of thinking with regards to Kovath in IC and that backfired horrendously Although he was a Neutral so not a strong point.

If you have time, I'd recommend rereading. (as I don't have anything urgent to talk to you about right now) Given the nature of the game, not a good idea to constantly post off-the-cuff, although I bet I'll fall into doing that regardless, lol.

Yeah, I reread and remembered that he had put you into his scum pile again so I retract that point.

Snarky, I see.

Except it wasnt repeated, or atleast I am the breaker of that repetition (based on above points). Why did he not bother to even remotely attempt to keep me on his side. (Unless Ive missed a post where im in his town side, but the last I saw, I was still hardline scum).

If it's been repeated with almost everyone else, it's repetition. One exception does not break the rule.

You answer your own question with your later point about being scum-read. FYPOV, nobody town-reads you but you are also not under enough pressure for potential white-knighting to occur.

With regards to Unknown, not sure on the difference between the two. Reminds me of how you described your IM 2.0 play, for some reason.

What im most uncomfortable with is that now 5 players (pretty sure eggy threw me in a scum basket somewhere recently) are reading me scum, 6 if you count yourself on a gut read, and I dont have a single vote on me. Im essentially lynchable right now and yet hardly anyone interacts with me save unknown and yourself. NU has referenced me when talking about others reactions, and TDL mightve once or twice as well, but thats about the extent of it. I know the counter to this arguement is that its my job to also initiate interactions, but I think ive said enough interesting or controversial things now to warrant more attention, especially given all the scum buckets im in.

So the question is why? Id personally like to think its because lynching any of the other current train candidates is easier (arrogant af), but I still believe that the current two trains are TvT, and scum are comfortable pushing both trains, as the outcome of either is garuanteed for them, and taking on a third train appears to be eager-to-lynch by shifting votes around, plus with three of them it would divide their votes and unconsolidate (Apparently thats not a word) their safe trains.

Technically speaking, it IS easier because SP/ NU have been discussed to the high heavens and lynching anyone who isn't SP is beyond moronic in every single respect.

This is a salient point though, the fact that your name gets bandied around with little to follow it up.

Your point about 'taking on a third train' is invalidated with the TDL train. SP's reasoning is absolute junk; only Spruance made an effort to explain himself and I don't trust either of them.

While I'm here, the latent retardation of trying to shift trains onto someone who hasn't even been pressured (TDL) after we had the entire day is beyond me. SP has run up the thread with a slew of obviously scum-motivated behaviour yet people want to take a shot in the dark with a (relatively) inactive player? And this train just conveniently happens to be discussed right before EOD.

Yeah I'm not buying that.

Pre-edit: I don't even think Eggy will be around before EOD either. You're basically voting for a "No-Lynch" in the sense that your vote isn't going to do anything other than be a glorified 'unvote' option.

[Iced_Monopoly]

You're basically voting for a "No-Lynch" in the sense that your vote isn't going to do anything other than be a glorified 'unvote' option.

Well, at least there is little to no arguement that can be made against a no lynch in this setup, besides pissing people off and drawing out the game.

[Iced_Monopoly]

Aight, im off for the night. If I am up tomorrow before EoD, I probably wont have time to re-read SP anyways, so I can live with a no lynch

[Calix]

Well, at least there is little to no arguement that can be made against a no lynch in this setup, besides pissing people off and drawing out the game.

The point is that lynch is mandatory in this setup, lmao.

[Iced_Monopoly]

The point is that lynch is mandatory in this setup, lmao.

Ugggh, did i really miss that?

Fuck it, il be up an hour before eod to move my vote if it's required

[DarknessB]

Catch-up multiquote responses incoming:

Eggy is sheeping my comments now. Sorry I don't have much time but I remember earlier he was trying to suck up to me, but now he's copying what I've said which is similar to what he did in IC.

When was Eggy trying to suck up to you exactly? If anything, I recall you getting salty at him for the whole NU / Eggy grudge which keeps seeping into this game. Honestly, I don't see that you've posted enough / staked yourself to any hard positions such that Eggy has been copying you.

Your entire argument is based off of NAI stuff, and then you try to turn it against me.

OMGUS isn't something only scum does, I literally did this last game. We aren't the same people, but my point is you are relying on textbook ideas and making it seem scummy.

Throwing shade is NAI, it's a personality thing.

That's just a massive discredit.

NU, I don't know why you are so desperate to get an early lynch. You are trying too hard to be the best, and it honestly just works against you.

NU has come off thirsty for a lynch this game, but that seems to be how he's approached recent games -- IC, for example, the Beginner's Game (before he got demoralized), etc. I suppose it's part of the result of Calix mentoring him? I don't see that as being AI and in fact, I have a slight Townread on NU right now, in terms of his pushing the conversation forward and following up with SP.

I'm doing perfectly fine without one, and I'll vote when I need to.

If I were going to channel Kovath misrep mode from IC, I'd call out the fact that you said "when I need to", which almost comes off like you don't want to vote for some reason. I think it's a playstyle thing though -- some people like to cast lots of votes and others don't. I haven't seen this as being particularly AI though.

TDL - fake votes Calix, asks why someone thinks he is town (Hanzo did that to me!), keeps vote on Calix, tries to keep attention off himself even though there is no night kill, seems to have a team scum agenda.

I'm not closely familiar with the M-FM -- what do you mean by a fake vote exactly? Also, I feel like TDL has addressed points that were raised on himself. A more scummy TDL would have taken SP's Townread without question. Not sure what you mean by a "team scum agenda" either -- can you explain further?

I think we found all the scrum.

Funny enough, Spruance's list for lynches is the same as mine right now.

These two posts catch me funny, as have many of SP's honestly. Merely because players arrive at the same scumreads doesn't make those players scum. In fact, it's extremely rare / almost unheard of that the scumteam is accurately read during Day 1. If anything, it's more suggestive that people are sheeping each other's reads and that people might want to take a step back.

Oh yeah. I added you to the lynch list after coming back and posting not as much as I expected.

I read TDL as null and lower activity (at least relative to the frantic pace of how games progress these days) is typical of his playstyle. I feel like you are a bit eager to make scumreads without trying to engage with the players in question. Almost comes off like "please let me push a lynch that doesn't involve me". I'd almost characterize it as survivalistic to some extent.

I can't remember why Spruance said TDL was scum. I would now be willing to lynch TDL based on coming back and posting very little.

The only bit he did post was the shade he threw onto me.

I don't understand why you don't try to engage TDL vs. immediately jumping to preferring a lynch on him. He had a reaction to your Townread on him and I don't feel like you took that opportunity to ask him questions to try to hone your read. I have this impression that you arrive at your reads first and then try to justify them to us after the fact, which I don't like.

[DarknessB]

I read Calix as scum for the obvious support of Never Unlucky.

"Something something makes strong points against sp. Town." -- as said by Calix.

Isn't this the definition of a pre-flip association? I.e. you scumread NU so Calix agreeing with NU makes Calix scummy too. Also, you're ignoring the fact that those "strong points" she agrees with happen to be against you, which also makes this come off a bit like OMGUS -- i.e. you're scumreading Calix because she happens to be pushing you.

Basically the scum outed themselves day one yes.

Again, I just find this to be beyond all reason -- when has this ever happened before?

So the game revolves around you? Christ. You think all the scum will out themselves by all simultaneously pushing you? How fucking self centered can you get?

This. I agree that SP has made himself a focal point of Day 1, but I think it's insane to think that the push against him is some scum team conspiracy and that they've all outed themselves in doing so. There have been a lot of inconsistencies with SP's play and points worth raising. Just feel like the "SP voters are scum / SP solved the game" narrative is nuts and counterproductive. If you scumread people, we need reads beyond "they're pushing me".

TDL - secondpassing is scummy or just plain bad, either way we should lynch him.

You're not helping yourself TDL!

I'm confused with the dash here -- are you encouraging TDL to vote SP? Also, if SP is "just plain bad", but not scum then we would we want to lynch him? Not understanding what you are trying to suggest here.

Considering how long, on average, I am alive in mafia games: yes.

Answer to the second question?

Honestly, the length of your survival in Mafia games is the one thing giving me pause on voting you, however crappy of a meta position that might be. I.e. the sense that you are terrible Town who is continuously digging the hole deeper, and the fact that this has happened in other games as well. I generally don't subscribe to the whole "too scummy to be scum" deal and the number of inconsistencies is growing too great though.

Yes, my issue with the host is resolved.

I hereby rescind my vote on Never Unlucky until I can more fully comprehend what this means.

Context of the quote: sign-up thread for the other S-FM. He quotes signs 9. Spruance 10. Slayer and.... All the way at the bottom of the list, reserve 1. secondpassing.

If he thinks I am trash tier scum, I think he would have been elated in having caught the scum game one. That or he thinks that I am that bad.

But I have a feeling it is not the above, and that he is frustrated at me. You basically only get frustrated with town players or town that won't listen to you.

Which means, down under, he probably thinks I'm town, can't explain it in his terms why a town player would play like me, and concluded that I was scum.

(look man, I'm was wrong to call you a noob, I could have used a different term in addressing you.)

-vote deathworlds

FoS on Calix while I contemplate

[mod]Note: This post was originally posted in an incorrect thread and was moved to its correct location about 40 minutes after the fact

-MattZed[/mod]

I'm absolutely speechless at this post... Let me get this straight, you are now Townreading NU (or at the very least, scumreading him less) because of interaction that occurred on a sign up post outside of the game thread?