S-FM 209: Surreptitious: The Game of Spies

[Never Unlucky]

Scum have a harder time attacking their accusers (with regards to checks) because they know that the town is telling the truth, so you get the "you're fake-claiming but XYZ makes you town still" or the "Witch/ Framer did it" or my favourite, "HE'S EXECUTIONER" cliche defenses where both of them 'could' be town because you're downplaying the nature of the 1v1 situation.

C'mon, I'm a better player than that... zzz

Actually I'll just look at Jealous and his D2 posts and see if he town-read NU then.

He makes it pretty clear that I'm a confirmed town in his eyes.

Vote for Group 1. Titus hasn't admitted that it was a fake-claim like town would've, and there is very little possible town-motivation behind this claim. Titus is scum.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I want to see if Jealous claims scum here. Interesting.

I don't see how you'd visit RLVG if claiming to Jealous.

@Calix , Strong scumlean. Gotta hit the road soon will explain later.

This honestly does not look like a lookout who has a red check. She almost seems like she is working with NU to find information rather than trying to fight him. I read this as a town fake claim.... (soooo after titus flips scum should I start picking out my favorite colored rope? )

[Calix]

Spoiler : So I went up to like, #1050 or something to look at Jealous' reaction. I quoted pretty much every post he makes even if it's not relevant to this interaction. (he didn't post much but I included the rest for context)

Most notable is his wall-post; he is sceptical of many players who scum-read NU (going as far as to assume that ALL of them are on a scum team) but I see no post where he outright states a town-read on NU. He calls it as "NU's posts did not strike me quite as scummy as" [his accusers :

which is a roundabout way of presenting a read if I saw one]

Hidden mechanic.

Trust me today and lynch Never Unlucky. Dude is scum.

I'm currently trying to battle the impression I'm getting of a DUCK/Titus/Yuki/secondpassing scumteam that these past few pages have given me -___-;

Dude are you having a terrible game or are scum?

Do you think NU is town?

NU's posts did not strike me quite as scummy as

1. DUCK's questionable role explanation, his distraction, his giving half-answers to questions that don't really add up based on the setup of the game,
2. Your jumping in to claim "hidden mechanic" to defend DUCK when you could have no possible knowledge as a regular townie about what hidden mechanics affect his role, your analysis of "evidence" on NU (neither of which I have seen - not analysis nor evidence), and your consequent jumping on him after scum had already NK'd in G3.
3. Yuki's consistent lack of contribution besides an overly blatant "trap" for scum or their ploy to make it seem like an overly blatant trap, their inability to answer questions, and seeing them post more than a single line of text and it's bandwagoning your motion.
4. secondpassing sheeping all of you and the seemingly fake in-fighting it has caused.

Addendum:

5. All of you being on simultaneously and sheeping a motion for which I have seen absolutely no post analysis or other strong evidence, all within a page.

So yea, there's that. Gonna mull it over before I go to sleep right now. Good night all.

[vote]Group 2

We are getting hard defenses. Good for later. NU must be really important to scum.

Presenting reasons vs. no reasons, obviously the former makes you scummier.

To be fair, why would scum use code if they have a private QT?

The circlejerk is real.

Lol. That was an interesting set of mental leaps you made there, all hinging on the joke that you either planned it out-of-thread and therefore violated the rules or that you are scum, very funny, means that both possibilities are impossible right? I like this kind of humor. It's so silly.

Interesting, although seems almost painfully obvious even when considering this fact.

NU, please explain where you got the impression that Jealous "made it pretty clear that [you] are confirmed town to [him]" please.

What made you change your stance from "Titus likely fake-claimed to draw attention to a scum-read" to "Titus is scum"?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Spoiler : So I went up to like, #1050 or something to look at Jealous' reaction. I quoted pretty much every post he makes even if it's not relevant to this interaction. (he didn't post much but I included the rest for context)

Most notable is his wall-post; he is sceptical of many players who scum-read NU (going as far as to assume that ALL of them are on a scum team) but I see no post where he outright states a town-read on NU. He calls it as "NU's posts did not strike me quite as scummy as" [his accusers :

which is a roundabout way of presenting a read if I saw one]

NU, please explain where you got the impression that Jealous "made it pretty clear that [you] are confirmed town to [him]" please.

What made you change your stance from "Titus likely fake-claimed to draw attention to a scum-read" to "Titus is scum"?

Eh I got the feeling something was up when TL overly defensive about NU getting pushed. I had a post typed about finding it odd how klingon and Jealous defending him was kind of but, that I think it would be odd for both mafia to defend a partner that quickly and obviously. This would make more sense. Keep in mind NU knows that Jealous knows his role, so he is more likely to see his posts as confirmation.

[Titus]

Had to drive someone to work in a carpool.

I do have a red check. Absolutely.

[Never Unlucky]

NU, please explain where you got the impression that Jealous "made it pretty clear that [you] are confirmed town to [him]" please.

Post 1011 #2 specifically. He says, "your analysis of "evidence" on NU (neither of which I have seen - not analysis nor evidence)" He knows there is no evidence against me as he knows for a fact that I am town, he has his counter-piece of evidence. This is why he thinks that everyone who's against me is scum.

What made you change your stance from "Titus likely fake-claimed to draw attention to a scum-read" to "Titus is scum"?

Analyzing the possible town motivation behind the fake-claim and coming to the conclusion that there is none + my previous lean-scum read on her from D1.

[Titus]

If Jealous vouches for NU, Jealous claims scum. Very low value play.

[Unknown1234]

This discussion feels like a TvT. I don't know why Titus would fake information, and I don't know why Jealous and NU would plan this so in advance as scum.

Double checking roles list.

[Titus]

Post 1011 #2 specifically. He says, "your analysis of "evidence" on NU (neither of which I have seen - not analysis nor evidence)" He knows there is no evidence against me as he knows for a fact that I am town, he has his counter-piece of evidence. This is why he thinks that everyone who's against me is scum.



Analyzing the possible town motivation behind the fake-claim and coming to the conclusion that there is none + my previous lean-scum read on her from D1.

Selling an alleged townread as confirmation. You're adorable but at least you came to play now.

[Titus]

This discussion feels like a TvT. I don't know why Titus would fake information, and I don't know why Jealous and NU would plan this so in advance as scum.

Double checking roles list.

NU is trying to sell Jealous as vouching for him. If NU gets lynched, scum are likely fucked.

[Never Unlucky]

Ok, with people dropping it's rather important to be a little more direct.

Someone in me/duck/yuki/second passing is a lookout that saw NU kill RLVG.

You mentioning the possible players who could be lookout when no one has soft-claimed something of the sort comes from absolutely fucking nowhere. If you were a lookout or if you were a town fake-claiming, you would've said that you saw me visit RLVG.

Plus, why are you naming THOSE players? Your suddent buddying of Yuki hasn't gone unnoticed.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

If Jealous vouches for NU, Jealous claims scum. Very low value play.

So I have been town reading you all game, but you have to understand what he just did if scum is either the worst thing in the history of mafia or conceding in a way that is meant to look like a rookie error that will force a miss lynch on a town read player or at least doubt cast on him. If he vouches for him why do we follow you? NU is extremely scummy, but the person vouching for him is the exact opposite, not to mention the play up until now has corroborated NU's claim. The only way for them to have planned this was "risk a bodyguard saving rlvg, and if the kill goes through we will set up a trail to go back on if a lookout watches him" which is extremely unlikely, but possible.

who the fuck knows at this point.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

You mentioning the possible players who could be lookout when no one has soft-claimed something of the sort comes from absolutely fucking nowhere. If you were a lookout or if you were a town fake-claiming, you would've said that you saw me visit RLVG.

Plus, why are you naming THOSE players? Your suddent buddying of Yuki hasn't gone unnoticed.

She hardclaimed earlier in "code". I also think she coded something about setting a trap after I asked her if she liked "soft shelled crabs", but I am not sure if that was a correct read on my part.

[Titus]

You mentioning the possible players who could be lookout when no one has soft-claimed something of the sort comes from absolutely fucking nowhere. If you were a lookout or if you were a town fake-claiming, you would've said that you saw me visit RLVG.

Plus, why are you naming THOSE players? Your suddent buddying of Yuki hasn't gone unnoticed.

I did. I picked the group who voted the claim for wifom.

1) Lighthouse overlooks the sea.
2) Highrope, wow scum look like ants.
3) Cult of the Yellow Eye, Saw scum.

@Duck, There is no vouch. Just NU selling it.

[Titus]

When you have a red check, you get the target lynched without claiming if possible in a last will variant, but given the fractures in town, no choice.

[Titus]

@JealousTL , Skip to the end, did you get a friendly neighbor message from NU?

[Titus]

The answer on that is no. Just confirming.

[Never Unlucky]

NU is trying to sell Jealous as vouching for him. If NU gets lynched, scum are likely fucked.

Tell me why the fuck would scum drag 2 of theirs when one has been caught. Your theory is far-fetched.

scum!NU busses his teammates/scum-reads his teammates even when it's not needed (Kovath in POLITICO). This is the extreme opposite of this. It's fucking obvious that you're scum and now trying to stick by what you claim not to be lynched today.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Tell me why the fuck would scum drag 2 of theirs when one has been caught. Your theory is far-fetched.

scum!NU busses his teammates/scum-reads his teammates even when it's not needed (Kovath in POLITICO). This is the extreme opposite of this. It's fucking obvious that you're scum and now trying to stick by what you claim not to be lynched today.

Why does she fake a red on you though when it looked like either you or I were dying today, both should have been good for her to just coast?

[Titus]

Tell me why the fuck would scum drag 2 of theirs when one has been caught. Your theory is far-fetched.

scum!NU busses his teammates/scum-reads his teammates even when it's not needed (Kovath in POLITICO). This is the extreme opposite of this. It's fucking obvious that you're scum and now trying to stick by what you claim not to be lynched today.

You drag it out to get reads. Claiming it causes mass bus in 9/10 instances. With last will, no need to even claim.

Calling optimal play farfetched is scum flail.

Only you visited RLVG.

[Titus]

I gotta run for an hour. Lynch NU.

[Never Unlucky]

Why does she fake a red on you though when it looked like either you or I were dying today, both should have been good for her to just coast?

WIFOM.

She somehow knows that the 2 scums are in G3 and has to fake-claim for town to push me instead of you.

[secondpassing]

Tell me why the fuck would scum drag 2 of theirs when one has been caught. Your theory is far-fetched.

scum!NU busses his teammates/scum-reads his teammates even when it's not needed (Kovath in POLITICO). This is the extreme opposite of this. It's fucking obvious that you're scum and now trying to stick by what you claim not to be lynched today.

Can you not use these out of game met things? Theres a bunch of players that aren't familiar with those game. (and I hated Politico).

Also I still think NU is scum.

[secondpassing]

-vote Group 3

After a quick review of the evidence, Never Unlucky is scum.

I do apologize but I am indeed taking round 1 of this challenge.

I thought this was code. Either this is a PLANNED redcheck. Or this is real.

Since I no longer see this as throwing someone under the bus, this is probably a red check.

[secondpassing]

#924 is where I reevaluated DUCKK's claim. Seems pretty consistent so far.

[Never Unlucky]

-vote Group 3

After a quick review of the evidence, Never Unlucky is scum.

I do apologize but I am indeed taking round 1 of this challenge.

"After a quick review of the evidence" -- You're saying that I was the one who killed RLVG so I assume only one person visited him. Why would you need a "quick review" if the feedback is this simple to understnad? zzz

Can you not use these out of game met things? Theres a bunch of players that aren't familiar with those game. (and I hated Politico).

Ok, you didn't like POLITICO, I won't use this reference ever again. Thanks for your feedback. /s

Using meta is strong to get early reads, why would I not use it? I get that new players are alienated with those references but I won't stop using them if it benefits/justifies my reads.

[Titus]

Forensics lol. You were tagged. Remember the goal. Crumb but not claim. Too few active town. Had to cla.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

On day 1 Jealous said "I only log on when I plan on responding", yet he has not replied with a simple yes or no which is not making me feel good about NU's claim.

Yes I realize he may have started from the bottom .NOW WERE HERE. and that he might not get to stuff later, but he was @pinged and its a bit sketchhhhh

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Forensics lol. You were tagged. Remember the goal. Crumb but not claim. Too few active town. Had to cla.

I don't know what is worse your rendition of "be back in an hour" or my "im not posting until the next phase"

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

@Kovath don't pay attention to the game until you answer this.

Did you win your chess match ?

[Kovath]

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

-vote Group 3

[Titus]

I don't know what is worse your rendition of "be back in an hour" or my "im not posting until the next phase"

My mafia addiction. Lols.

[Kovath]

@Kovath don't pay attention to the game until you answer this.

Did you win your chess match ?

No, I've been playing meh since my first two games.

Doesn't matter, am GM lel.

[JealousTL]

@Calix You say you don't think that my proposed scum team has more than 2 scum (just reminding you). Who do you think is missing? Who do you think is scum of the 4? Also, what do you make of Titus defending DUCK and super-pushing a G3/NU vote without presenting any reasoning?

If you are town and think two of the the 4 on that list are scum I am going to go commit sodoku IRL.

Just want to let you know it's either seppuku or harakiri, never sudoku. Sudoku is a logic game played with numbers on a grid. I hope this was a joke, but I've seen this mistake before and spelled correctly.

I have ignored specific posts on day 2 though.

Sweet.

Yuki is scummy in that he conformed his behavior when you noted a difference, and that he refused to work with town. This is not something you must lynch, and would only be slightly stronger than a policy lynch. Yesterday I specifically mentioned I townread 4 of the 5 voters ( I think it was about a vote on yuki and someone else, and the non town read was klingon).

Yet you did whatever you could to block the vote on Yuki, and have since repeatedly said that you were suspicious of how that train formed. Now you are saying that 4 of the 5 voters are town. Okay.

As I read on, I see Calix mentioned this as well. Yea, your wording was shitty, I am the last person who can judge you on this so I want to give you a pass on that, but I will be looking for more inconsistencies. You somewhat answer this, and I guess your town circle constitutes the reads that were requested. .

Town circle in no order:
Group 1:
Eggy
Titus

Group 2:
Jealoustl
Calix
secondpassing

Group 3:
Ginger
Kovath

So, why is voting G2 a bad idea then? Why are you voting G3? According to this, your town circle (which I presume includes you) should have 4/5 players in G2, and thus lynching SuperJack is the best move right now. Or, at least it should be given your stance.

UGH. Calix said this exact thing on the page. Damn you, Calix. At least this gives me some validation.

The reasoning I saw was more under what would constitute a policy lynch, which at the time I thought it was possible to miss lynch and just lose the game off a policy lynch. I saw a bodyguard soft claim, which apparently wasn't one, but even without that I would have still defended him to the grave.

Gingerape and a few others explained perfectly well why a D1 mislynch loss wouldn't be approved, well before the final vote on lynch (especially after we were given ~3.5 hours).

I town shielded yuki, I do not want people voting him. I don’t care what you think on the matter, I think it was a bad lynch and will defend him just like I did unknown, and just like I did Clarence. I never said do not scum read them, as I scum read him, but I do not want him lynched. I can’t stop the town from lynching him, only can lead them to the water.

? Solid reasoning.

Jesus Christ I cant believe I got out of bed to respond to a post when the person has not read any of my real posts. You are literally the third person to have done this now (Klingon, JealousTl, Calix).

I AM VOTING FOR GROUP 3 BECAUSE TO SIMPLIFY I TOWNREAD 4/5 PLAYERS (rlvg is dead so its fucking four), (yuki is town read because of the lynch against him. I don't actually town read him so I did not want him in a town circle as of yet.), I town read ginger, and Kovath, leaving fucking NU who I have explained that I have wanted to lynch.

I also posted that SJ was likely scum, but that I had to be wrong on actually fuck it. I am not going to continue to waste my time if people are not going to read my posts and I sure as hell now know none of you fucking idiots will pay attention to my last will. ~duck out. I will not be posting again for the rest of this phase in the day.

;-; What a ragequit over someone actually asking a logical question. This is why I don't like players who wear their hearts on their sleeve.

In the end, if your read on Yuki is so weak, I don't see how you can justify going for that group when you have G2 in which you are supposedly guaranteed town (at least in your own eyes), and you strongly townread 3 of the remaining 4 players. That is better odds than what you've professed in G3, and carries less risk (hypothetically).

Gonna cut this catch-up post here so I can switch topics and address others more directly.

[Never Unlucky]

wat

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

While I appreciate the effort in trying to scum read me, more important matters like a yes or a no.

[JealousTL]

Ok, with people dropping it's rather important to be a little more direct.

Someone in me/duck/yuki/second passing is a lookout that saw NU kill RLVG.

I am curious as to how you can claim that one of you four is any role unless you've been communicating outside the game, which is not allowed. What you're essentially saying through a thin veil is that you are the Lookout, but perhaps trying to extend the safety penumbra that claiming a TPR would grant onto three other people? Which you've chosen how, exactly?

Why pick RLVG?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz the whole point of me saying yuki softed bodyguard was so that they would attack yuki and the real bodyguard would protect him + get a check. Now they will know he is the lookout. We would have gotten NU lynched without you taking this direct approach.

@Yuki what made you watch rlvg?

What o_O... How are all these players getting all of this information from just about nothing. Yuki never claimed, no one ever claimed to have tracked NU or looked out RLVG, or anything. So how can either of you make claims like this? Yuki is borderline unintelligible half the time, too, and have definitely never said that they tracked/looked out except for that blatant "Will do." at the end of D1.

[Never Unlucky]

Now he's gone...

He has to be trolling me. My life depends on his "yes".

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

This is getting painful. Can someone OGI him to skip to the end.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Actually mods hate me, obligatory don't listen to duck on that comment.

[Kovath]

This is taking way too long for a simple yes / no.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Drinking game time:

For every drop of sweat from NU's forehead take a shot
For every post TL makes without acknowledging the claim take a shot
For every word TL posts that you have to use a thesaurus, dictionary, or the bible take 1/10th of a shot.

[Never Unlucky]

Drinking game time:

For every drop of sweat from NU's forehead take a shot
For every post TL makes without acknowledging the claim take a shot
For every word TL posts that you have to use a thesaurus, dictionary, or the bible take 1/10th of a shot.

I got drunk in less than a minute.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

For every role I will claim this game take a shot
For every time calix says "its a joke guise" take a shot
For every time Kovath loses a chess match because hes playing FM take a shot
For every time duck gets modkilled finish your bottle
For every Time titus codes a soft claim take a shot
For every time Duck troll posts take 1/10th a shot
For every time quick messed up a mechanic dont take a shot because he would never do such a thing
For every time you wanted duck to shut up take a long hard look in th emirror at yourself because that is rude

[Kovath]

For every role I will claim this game take a shot
For every time calix says "its a joke guise" take a shot
For every time Kovath loses a chess match because hes playing FM take a shot
For every time duck gets modkilled finish your bottle
For every Time titus codes a soft claim take a shot
For every time Duck troll posts take 1/10th a shot
For every time quick messed up a mechanic dont take a shot because he would never do such a thing
For every time you wanted duck to shut up take a long hard look in th emirror at yourself because that is rude

Interesting, you capitalize Time only once... in the line you talk about Titus making codes...

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Okay seriously... is this guy writing a rough draft and then final copy on every post? That or he has an open dictionary and is looking for the perfect word.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Interesting, you capitalize Time only once... in the line you talk about Titus making codes...

I noticed that when I hit enter. DAt ocd though, never capitalized the t in her name and I don't know why.

#overdefensive to a troll post fuck you. Don't bring out my defensiveness, makes me look scummy.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

andddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd hes gone. I take that as he caught up and is probably making a phone call to his local best buy about how to repair a computer that was thrown out of a fourth story window.

[Never Unlucky]

Okay seriously... is this guy writing a rough draft and then final copy on every post? That or he has an open dictionary and is looking for the perfect word.

Using a thesaurus for yes/no synonyms

zzz

[JealousTL]

Guys, I'm actually reading and trying to respond to everything, please chill.