S-FM 196: QT 3.14

[Helz]

Can someone actually answer this question?

Im actually more leaning scum on Banana right now. The things she is intentionally overlooking/avoiding combined with her odd pocketing attempts with Duckk bother me quite a bit.

[Helz]

because she isn't dumb enough to tunnel on stupid things.

You should learn a bit about tempo control. The objective of RVS is to create content to analyze. By tunneling on stupid shit off the bat we create this content as a town and move into a deeper phase of the game quickly maximizing the towns ability to use the day. It is anti town to kick your feet up and tread water counting down the clock just because nothing hardcore is on the table.

[Helz]

Since we get four lynches I propose we:

Lynch in any order: (this is my order though)
Unknown
Helz
Mattzed
Firebringer

I am fairly sure we just win with this lynch order. If we were to go with this I would be willing to let me be swapped by banana and kovath with any of the lynches if they so agree.

I dislike the way you keep attempting to map out multiple days of lynches. And I dislike that you keep pushing the idea of lynching players without providing reasoning/reads with the concept of killing them.

[Helz]

Oh. Apparently I am at L1 only a few hours into the game. Be careful with your votes.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-vote unvote

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

zzzzzz

-vote unknown1234

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

If activity does not pick up in the next 24 hours I will be asking for a replacement.

[Helz]

Im working through some stuff right now. Getting a feeling for the game again now that I am sober : )

But feel free to ask me anything.
And out of curiosity do you feel that Banana was trying to pocket you in her recent posts?

[MattZed]

Anything interesting that I miss?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Im working through some stuff right now. Getting a feeling for the game again now that I am sober : )

But feel free to ask me anything.
And out of curiosity do you feel that Banana was trying to pocket you in her recent posts?

Seeing how much she defended me when she does not agree with the the reads or the style of play yes. My posts have been mostly trash tier so even if they give her a town tell she should have been more alarmed and questioned me.

I still read her as town for now, but there was one interaction that has me skeptical. When I mentioned that she would pay for picking hanzo over widomaker (shitpost to the max), I expected an angry banana, but I got a hanzo quote reply. Banana is the kind of player to expect highly analytical thought provoking posts, yet she did not criticize the worst post I could make.

[MattZed]

If activity does not pick up in the next 24 hours I will be asking for a replacement.

Don't you dare. The game hasn't even been going for 12 hours, and we have over 200 posts. For 7 players, this is high-activity game.

[MattZed]

Don't you dare. The game hasn't even been going for 12 hours, and we have over 200 posts. For 7 players, this is high-activity game.

*24 hours

[MattZed]

@Helz , what do you make of BananaCucho's activity so far?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I dislike the way you keep attempting to map out multiple days of lynches. And I dislike that you keep pushing the idea of lynching players without providing reasoning/reads with the concept of killing them.

I have mentioned reasons for killing all but mattzed, who is poe based on my reads on kovath and Banana.

I will be reading your larger posts shortly and posting my updated reads.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Don't you dare. The game hasn't even been going for 12 hours, and we have over 200 posts. For 7 players, this is high-activity game.

Sure in a normal game, however this is an ALL VT game that loses its day chat after day1. DAY1 IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY other kind of setup I can think of. (I know my vote on helz contradicts this logic)

[Helz]

Seeing how much she defended me when she does not agree with the the reads or the style of play yes. My posts have been mostly trash tier so even if they give her a town tell she should have been more alarmed and questioned me.

I still read her as town for now, but there was one interaction that has me skeptical. When I mentioned that she would pay for picking hanzo over widomaker (shitpost to the max), I expected an angry banana, but I got a hanzo quote reply. Banana is the kind of player to expect highly analytical thought provoking posts, yet she did not criticize the worst post I could make.

What is drawing my attention is her quickly giving out passes for D1. In her 2nd post she flat out says she wont lynch MattZed today. Then in post 178 she says she does not want to lynch Unknown or you today. She is very quickly letting players know they can feel safe with her which would be a strong way to 'feel players out' for a mafia team mate while also giving the players that have a higher potential for being the D1 lynch target an inclination to follow and trust her.

[Helz]

@Helz , what do you make of BananaCucho's activity so far?

I posted a bit of that just now in post 216 but in general I am looking at her play so far pretty critically. She is not being very confrontational or showing any kind of real aggression while tossing out soft buddy attempts and contributing very little of value. I would like to see more from her and to draw attention to her play so far today.

[Helz]

Sure in a normal game, however this is an ALL VT game that loses its day chat after day1. DAY1 IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY other kind of setup I can think of. (I know my vote on helz contradicts this logic)

Would it be fucked up if I am just now realizing that day chat goes away after D1? I suppose its starting to make more sense that you are stacking up multiple days of lynches now..

Just to clarify the rule states that players can not post unless they are posting a vote. Does this mean that we can still post content along with the vote or is it restricted to just the vote?

[MattZed]

I can read scum motivation into Duckk's attempted 1v1. Scum can win by getting 3 mislynches in a row, but alternatively they can shorten it to two mislynches if the D2 lynch is on scum. I'd say that, in this setup, it's easier for scum to win 4v1 MYLO than 3v2 LYLO. (A LYLO that buys us a mislynch if we succeed) Hence, one route to scum victory is to have one partner be the D2 lynch. Setting up a 1v1 on someone scum townreads is precisely the case for that, because it means the partner only needs to secure one more mislynch. No need to be clever and find your partner; just need to suicide and take someone with you.

Of course, this is all predicated on Duckk actually townreading Unknown. I can buy this, since Duckk hasn't given a non-meta reason to scumread Unknown, (thus, his true meta read could be a townread) but I don't actually see directly evidence at the moment that Duckk townreads Unknown. Yes, the 99.99% comment is clearly false, but I'm not confident saying "He is scum lying about his townread" as opposed to just "he's town with a meta read that he's being hyperbolic about."

[Helz]

Yeah. Given this mechanic I absolutely hate how Banana is giving out 'I wont lynch you' passes this early in the game. I am just going to leave my vote here for now.

-vote BananaCucho

[MattZed]

Yeah. Given this mechanic I absolutely hate how Banana is giving out 'I wont lynch you' passes this early in the game. I am just going to leave my vote here for now.

-vote BananaCucho

You said yourself that you wouldn't lynch me or Kovath unless something major happened, and you haven't meaningfully pressured or prodded either of us. Why are those passes different from the ones Banana gave?

[Helz]

You said yourself that you wouldn't lynch me or Kovath unless something major happened, and you haven't meaningfully pressured or prodded either of us. Why are those passes different from the ones Banana gave?

Well simply put I had no idea we lost night chat after D1. Thats a pretty big game changer. Im actually reading through Kovath again right now.

[Helz]

Day chat* Night chats are not even a thing in this game.

[Firebringer]

I am back, I saw early Helz was in L-1 range. Who was bright person to do that this early?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I am back, I saw early Helz was in L-1 range. Who was bright person to do that this early?

I plead the fifth.

[Firebringer]

I plead the fifth.

The 4th is a much better one.

[Unknown1234]

Yeah. Given this mechanic I absolutely hate how Banana is giving out 'I wont lynch you' passes this early in the game. I am just going to leave my vote here for now.

-vote BananaCucho

Do you think Firebringer is doing the same thing? Aside from voting me and you, fire is making it clear he is going to be Ducks exact copy for this game.

[Helz]

I am pretty sad that chat ends D1. With scum not knowing who etch other are we are not left with very much at all... This will be a pretty insane win for the town if we manage to pull it out.

Also the more I read the more comfortable I am with a Banana lynch. I am confident that this player will be in my lynch pool at the end of the day.

[Helz]

Do you think Firebringer is doing the same thing? Aside from voting me and you, fire is making it clear he is going to be Ducks exact copy for this game.

I have to dig into fire again. I have not really read his posts sense sobering up.

[MattZed]

Well simply put I had no idea we lost night chat after D1. Thats a pretty big game changer. Im actually reading through Kovath again right now.

Are you expecting me to believe that Helz, the pickiest /sign of all S-FMs, missed the main point of a setup he signed for?

[Firebringer]

I have to dig into fire again. I have not really read his posts sense sobering up.

Drunk reading my posts is the best way to read my posts, they make way more sense drunk I think.

[Firebringer]

Are you expecting me to believe that Helz, the pickiest /sign of all S-FMs, missed the main point of a setup he signed for?

Ewwwwww Matt, this is gross.

[Firebringer]

Do you think Firebringer is doing the same thing? Aside from voting me and you, fire is making it clear he is going to be Ducks exact copy for this game.

I am ducks copy?

-vote PLZLEAVEDUCK

WOULD HIS COPY DO THIS!?!?!?

[Firebringer]

-vote PLZLEAVEDUCKK

Jesus spell your name with less ks.

[Helz]

Are you expecting me to believe that Helz, the pickiest /sign of all S-FMs, missed the main point of a setup he signed for?

Yeah. Pretty much. And I probably would not have signed if I had noticed the removal of day chat. Thats like the entire point of playing mafia. Analysis and Deception..

[Unknown1234]

I am ducks copy?

-vote PLZLEAVEDUCK

WOULD HIS COPY DO THIS!?!?!?

Well, he likes to Tunnel..... Do YOU like to tunnel?

[Firebringer]

Yeah. Pretty much. And I probably would not have signed if I had noticed the removal of day chat. Thats like the entire point of playing mafia. Analysis and Deception..

IT WILL BE INTERESTING HELZ. WE WILL DISCUSS IN THE PTS WHO IS SCUM!

[Firebringer]

Well, he likes to Tunnel..... Do YOU like to tunnel?

Only to dig graves.
For scum to lie in.

Does he tunnel for that reason?

[MattZed]

Yeah. Pretty much. And I probably would not have signed if I had noticed the removal of day chat. Thats like the entire point of playing mafia. Analysis and Deception..

Well, now that you're with the rest of us, do you have any setup-based discussion to reveal? Tactics you want to employ in your QT chats?

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

-vote PLZLEAVEDUCKK

Jesus spell your name with less ks.

Not what I had in mind when I said distance, but it is a start!

TRYING TO ISO helz but all of his posts refer to post numbers and it is really cumbersome rippppppp taking forever. Fucking scavenger hunt.

[Firebringer]

I dislike the way you keep attempting to map out multiple days of lynches. And I dislike that you keep pushing the idea of lynching players without providing reasoning/reads with the concept of killing them.

I agree heavily with this and its why I am voting PLZLEAVEDUCK right now.

[Unknown1234]

Only to dig graves.
For scum to lie in.

Does he tunnel for that reason?

Fire, let's be real here. WE are the brains here.

MattZed how do you feel about Banana?

[Helz]

Well, now that you're with the rest of us, do you have any setup-based discussion to reveal? Tactics you want to employ in your QT chats?

Yeah. Optimal play is for every player to go super townie and cut out all trolling nonsense. As much as I dislike the process I think it will be easier to scum hunt via clearing town than to lean on pegging scum. The only way we are going to pull this out is if we stick to providing reason with our reads. Keep in mind that scum will also be scum hunting for their team mate and likely playing more like a SK than team scum given the curved mechanics when scum are lynched.

I will have to think about it more for how to deal with the private chats.. That sort of thing is going to be complicated. But I would be careful about people quoting others posts. If you see something insane or out of place like a player quoting another player who is saying "I am mafia, I know you are my team mate" or some shit do not quickly cast a vote. Exercise hammer control and investigate the situation.

[Helz]

I should have been playing very differently.. Kinda sucks.

[Firebringer]

I should have been playing very differently.. Kinda sucks.

How so?? This Day 1 is for us to create baselines of discussion with players. Then in QTs we will try sort people through more 1on1s and then probably trying to create town blocks and make sure all information is still going to each other. We want to however keep the scum from finding each other, though that will be hard to do. Theres high chance town will also do gambits in the QTs so that should be considered.

HOw would you have played this day differently if you knew what you know now?

[Kovath]

Fire, let's be real here. WE are the brains here.

MattZed how do you feel about Banana?

I think you're the person we're needing to see more substantive content from, not MattZed.

Asking someone else for their thoughts can be towny or scummy depending on the situation, but with you having such a dearth of content you should start with yourself before asking someone else. It makes me think you're fishing around for reads by other towns, a commonly made argument I admit, but one I think is applicable to you in this situation.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

Legit, Yes. Its pretty much the only time I scumslip. Almost every game I play while drinking a good bit I end up trying to backtrack from stupid shit I say while drunk. Fortunately not many people do deep reads on this site so I always get away with it : )

Was not a fan of this post because of the way you started with “Legit, Yes.” I don’t think this is as strong as cases I have seen on other people, but it is similar to when someone will say “I actually believe this” as if other posts were them trying to be something they were not.

Hit the store bro. Then we can drink while playing games while playing games : )

Comfortable response.

Nah, A Helz scum brag is when I make this post right here telling my unknown scum team mate that I am also scum and not to lynch me. That we should totally mislynch Calix instead

-vote Calix

I didn’t like this post for several reasons. First of all the obvious calix vote, but I really don’t hold that against you it was just odd. What I am more concerned about is “telling my UNKNOWN scum team mate”. Seeing as that is an actual player in the game who was already my top scum read it definitely raises alarm bells. I know it is a fairly common word, but it is a possible strategy in this setup and it is worth noting regardless if it has meaning.

So run through 1 I looked at MattZed and Firebringer. Here it is:

MattZed-
Straight up townie feeling. Im not going to bother going into why. I will not vote this guy for the D1 lynch.

FireBringer-
Post 1 claims Mafia. For meta shit he does that Indy ploy and is known for his all over the place playstyle. I am slightly more inclined to say he would do this as town opposed to scum but I do not put any weight in that. He jumps to pressure MattZed in post 27 which is slightly townie but at the same time there is potential for it to opertunisitcly so. Then post 32 he jumps on Kovath with another vote swap. This is mechanically a scummy move as well as screaming “I am town trying to scum hunt.” Post 40 he points back to him claiming scum which is a null play from him. Post 41 he town reads MattZed which makes no fucking sense at all in contrast with his post 27 while scum reading Kovath and Unknown (Sheep style). Post 44 reaction pokes Kovath which I could see from a town perspective. 44,47,50 all null. Post 51 he is leading Duckk to scum read Kovath which would be on par with a scum play. 65 he has fully backtracked on his reads townreading Kovath and MattZed with reasoning I dislike. He states (@MattZed) that his post “I get the feeling this is a serious post and you’re testing if you actually found your ally, but hiding it as a joke” (Pointed at Duckk) with a critical “I think you are just trying to Reinforce your vote on him” followed by a town read. This feels like a contradiction that just does not work. Why flip reads on 2 slots with a seemingly scum-town read with no apparent reasoning..
Post 69 is either communicating with team mate or WIFOM to insulate from a night kill + reaction test. Brazen as hell if it’s a scum play. I would be leaning town on it if it were any other player. Post 87 he once again goes at MattZed who he Scum read, then town read, now is pushing as scum once again. Heavily inconsistent.
@Fire- What made you Townread MattZed in post 65? Why did you flip your vote on Kovath?
I am uncomfortable with Firebringer's plays. Kinda started to zone out near the end but he looks bad

You wanted me to explain my scumread on unknown, but give mattzed a free pass for no reason?
Fire’s initial vote swapping is interesting, but for me it is slightly towny. I like where you point out that during the vote swaps he scumreads mattzed, however puts him in his town circle. His post on 51 definitely is odd given that his previous vote swaps were weakly grounded at best.
Your response to his response on post 69 is good. You are analyzing more than just the words, but the type of player it is coming from.

I really don’t feel like responding to the remaining night wall of texts so I will jump to posts from today.

Well if you are actually able to get a strong alignment read 2 pages into the first day of a game from 3 small posts you are literally the greatest mafia player that has ever existed and are probably related to Miss Cleo. I know you are lying but props for sticking to your guns.
Also I don't think I played in Charmanders revenge. Only game I have played on this site as Cult I was a cult leader and hard town read by every player until the game fell apart due to the host abandoning the game..

I don’t like your response here. I understand you doubt my ability to make too good of reads off little to no content, but the “I know you lying” rubs me the wrong way. The only way you would know I was lying is if you were mafia and had a good idea of who the other one is thus making my strong read on unknown wrong.
The morp(you) was directed at the mattzed orpz hydra.

Im actually more leaning scum on Banana right now. The things she is intentionally overlooking/avoiding combined with her odd pocketing attempts with Duckk bother me quite a bit.

Banana defending me could be pocketing, but it could be she realizes how silly the points against me were. It could just as easily be her as town trying to discredit ridiculous attempts at people trying to make something out of nothing.

What is drawing my attention is her quickly giving out passes for D1. In her 2nd post she flat out says she wont lynch MattZed today. Then in post 178 she says she does not want to lynch Unknown or you today. She is very quickly letting players know they can feel safe with her which would be a strong way to 'feel players out' for a mafia team mate while also giving the players that have a higher potential for being the D1 lynch target an inclination to follow and trust her.

Did you not give mattzed the same pass for reasons you said you would not state? Shouldn’t you be considering a world where she is town since both of you feel so strong in reading mattzed as town?

[Firebringer]

Just want to point out this, even though I think its plainly obvious.
Scum primary motivation isn't likely to not get lynched today, its probably to cut of our best communication source (Day 1), and ending it early. This is why PLZ putting Helz at L-1 so early in the day, is so terrible.

With little to go off, the PTs will be harder for us to come to conclusions, it will be harder to communicate our thoughts altogether, and it will make it easier for scum to manipulate mislynches.

We have still two more days, and I definitely don't think we should do a lynch up until last few hours of this game day.

[Helz]

How so?? This Day 1 is for us to create baselines of discussion with players. Then in QTs we will try sort people through more 1on1s and then probably trying to create town blocks and make sure all information is still going to each other. We want to however keep the scum from finding each other, though that will be hard to do. Theres high chance town will also do gambits in the QTs so that should be considered.

HOw would you have played this day differently if you knew what you know now?

Slower, More focused, and less troll posts. Doesn't matter now. Whats done is done.

[PLZLEAVEDUCKK]

I think you're the person we're needing to see more substantive content from, not MattZed.

Asking someone else for their thoughts can be towny or scummy depending on the situation, but with you having such a dearth of content you should start with yourself before asking someone else. It makes me think you're fishing around for reads by other towns, a commonly made argument I admit, but one I think is applicable to you in this situation.

Do you see the "WE" as a possible soft claim to fire that he is mafia? I don't see another reason for him to emphasize the we there? Last game I tried to do very similar things to iced all game.