S-FM 245 Which Witch is Which? - GYRLANDER -

[Soviet_Love]

On the Ozy/Magoroth link between group 1 (citizen group) and group 2 (scum group), there are 4 possible scenarios:

Both scum - Ozy faked sheriff claim to try to give Magoroth an out.
Ozy Scum/Mag Town - Ozy faked sheriff and knew Magoroth was own.
Magoroth Scum/Ozy Town - This would mean magoroth is godfather and ozy unfortunately detected him.
Both town - Here everything is as it appears.

Do we trust one of these 4 possibilities over another? Can we rule any out?

[Soviet_Love]

for you yes lol because you have a citizem claim. I am talking about from the view of Ozy, whom claimed sheriff. if he really was sheriff you would think he would investigate the other 2 TPR claims. susp why he doesnt care to address either me or MM or put pressure there.

Ah I see your point. Valid

[Distorted]

Also I don't really want to go through and like multi-quote someone across multiple posts, it is a lot of energy. I feel like I've been contributing. Me mentioning that one witch gets the other's power convince Ozy we should day-lynch, for example. Stating things so everyone is on the same page is a pro-town strategy. It's like what rumox did last game.

but it doesn't look like you have been forming individual reads - possible scum WIFOM sitting back since most people confirm you as town so you stopped following as closely?

[Ganelon]

...still, I don't believe a new player would play that well, unless of course, he is a hidden pro.

However, let's put things into a different perspective.

IF the Witches KNEW/SUSPECTED that Ozy was a TPR, why was he not role blocked? What possible sense could that make? Why did they role block MM?

[Distorted]

On the Ozy/Magoroth link between group 1 (citizen group) and group 2 (scum group), there are 4 possible scenarios:

Both scum - Ozy faked sheriff claim to try to give Magoroth an out.
Ozy Scum/Mag Town - Ozy faked sheriff and knew Magoroth was own.
Magoroth Scum/Ozy Town - This would mean magoroth is godfather and ozy unfortunately detected him.
Both town - Here everything is as it appears.

Do we trust one of these 4 possibilities over another? Can we rule any out?

This is why I want to hear your individual reads on people - you dont need to multiquote everyone. What is everyones vibe they are projecting, and why. You can just paraphrase examples. But it is sounding like you have not been reading individuals.

[Ganelon]

Oh, and by the way, while we're at it, even if you don't trust my being town, you can definitely trust that I am not a TPR by any means. I would not be lying about my role right now.

[OzyWho]

I am talking about from the view of Ozy, whom claimed sheriff. if he really was sheriff you would think he would investigate the other 2 TPR claims. susp why he doesnt care to address either me or MM or put pressure there.

I really do feel like I answered you already.

1) it's not 33%, but 90% from my perspective.
2) I don't want to think about the TPR group at all, today. It's just not worth it. I don't believe we can figure out between Distorted and MM without Night2 action - so I won't submit any energy to that hopeless cause. Lazy=Evil, let it be heard!

[Soviet_Love]

Idk what WIFOM and BIFOM and LIFOM and GIFOM and PIFOM mean.

Also, I need to afk for an hour or two - gotta do homework for a class in an hour.

[Gyrlander]

@Gyrlander when you say that we know who died, but not how, does that apply to deaths by Arson as well? In the past, games I've been in where Arson wins (see: last game with blink) the host writes something about how people died in flames or some flavor text to say it's arson.

(Asking because if it's an arson and a mass murderer, then mass murderer killed night 1 while arson doused, and night 2 mass murderer couldn't kill but arson could conceivably ignite).

As I said, all death descriptions are totally random for the only purpose of not writing just "X was killed" all the time. It doesn't matter who killed someone, death description will always have no relation with the Killing Role.

@Gyrlander , are we allowed to check other games in which players who were present in this game participated? You know, to learn their playstyle and things like that?

Of course.

If the Mass Murderer dies, the other witch should be able to use his power. Unless... @Gyrlander , help us out a bit.

If a Witch dies, the other Witch will be able to use his powers on alternating nights STARTING THAT NIGHT. It doesn't matter which the role was.

[OzyWho]

On the Ozy/Magoroth link between group 1 (citizen group) and group 2 (scum group), there are 4 possible scenarios:

Both scum - Ozy faked sheriff claim to try to give Magoroth an out.
Ozy Scum/Mag Town - Ozy faked sheriff and knew Magoroth was own.
Magoroth Scum/Ozy Town - This would mean magoroth is godfather and ozy unfortunately detected him.
Both town - Here everything is as it appears.

Do we trust one of these 4 possibilities over another? Can we rule any out?

OMG, IF WE LYNCH A TPR TODAY, PLEASE LET IT BE ME, THAT MEANS YOU ALL SEE ME AS A GOOD PLAYER!!!!
I don't mind thinking that we both scums also. That would be a respectable strategy too considering town is at Misslyinch and Lose scenario. But then - me being the only one advocating to perhaps abstain, doesn't make a lot of sense. I wouldn't do that if its against my strategy

[Distorted]

...still, I don't believe a new player would play that well, unless of course, he is a hidden pro.

However, let's put things into a different perspective.

IF the Witches KNEW/SUSPECTED that Ozy was a TPR, why was he not role blocked? What possible sense could that make? Why did they role block MM?

He is not new to Mafia... and they had a night chat last night so it would be fairly easy to come up with fake claims that only need to last 1 day. It really is not a hard, elaborate, or risky play at all. Hell it is the second most claimed thing in the mod after "doc" from people.

We are not even sure if that RB even happened though - MM also didn't seem very adamant on trying to get some1 to claim escort or confirm the RB - possibly due to it not happening?

Without pressure votes it is a lot harder to get info...this setup needs to be extended to 9 players. 2 witches, 2 TPR, 5 citizen, maybe a 10th neutral benign.

[Ganelon]

WIFOM= Wine in it for me
I would post a link to the Mafia wiki about it but I'm not sure that's allowed

[Distorted]

WIFOM= Wine in it for me
I would post a link to the Mafia wiki about it but I'm not sure that's allowed

it's aloud.

[Ganelon]

https://sc2mafia.com/wiki/WIFOM
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=WIFOM

[OzyWho]

@Magoroth , @Soviet_Love , @Noz_Bugz , @Marshmallow Marshall , @Distorted

Welcome to my humble abode!
Sit down, sons, and let me tell you a story.

This story based on a claim that a player named Marshmallow Marshall did.
What was it, Ozy, you ask? What did he claim and gives us a clue?
Well, my children. He claimed that he was role blocked and that he is a TPR. Yes, that is correct - he did that.
But Ozy, you ask, what about it?

Well, let us think both scenarios through for a second, ok?

If he WAS roleblocked, then that would mean he is confirmed TPR, since no escort would lie about things. Which then means that Distorted is evil! And who is Distorted’s allie? WELL NOZ OFCOURSE!
If he WASN’T roleblocked, then that means that he is confirmed SCUM and thus Distorted is the good guy. But who is Marshmallow Marshalls allie, you ask? WELL NOZ OF COURSE!

So, children, please. Let us get here together tonight to burn Noz to ashes!

[Distorted]

I really do feel like I answered you already.

1) it's not 33%, but 90% from my perspective.
2) I don't want to think about the TPR group at all, today. It's just not worth it. I don't believe we can figure out between Distorted and MM without Night2 action - so I won't submit any energy to that hopeless cause. Lazy=Evil, let it be heard!

What do you mean tomorrow? I roleclaimed with intent to lynch today. That post was up there for 12 hours without you commenting otherwise, now the roleclaim happened and you want to go another night?

-vote ozywho

What you are doing makes very little sense to me right now. We would literally have the same info we do now but with 1 less TOWN opinion; and potentially risking 2 deaths tonight for pretty much no new info and town losing even more support. You understand if 1 more person dies it becomes 3 people to lynch, so the second some1 gets voted, if they are not scum the 2 witches can jump on that vote and end the game?

[Ganelon]

I'm going to reread this clusterfuck of a thread, brb.

[Distorted]

@Magoroth , @Soviet_Love , @Noz_Bugz , @Marshmallow Marshall , @Distorted

Welcome to my humble abode!
Sit down, sons, and let me tell you a story.

This story based on a claim that a player named Marshmallow Marshall did.
What was it, Ozy, you ask? What did he claim and gives us a clue?
Well, my children. He claimed that he was role blocked and that he is a TPR. Yes, that is correct - he did that.
But Ozy, you ask, what about it?

Well, let us think both scenarios through for a second, ok?

If he WAS roleblocked, then that would mean he is confirmed TPR, since no escort would lie about things. Which then means that Distorted is evil! And who is Distorted’s allie? WELL NOZ OFCOURSE!
If he WASN’T roleblocked, then that means that he is confirmed SCUM and thus Distorted is the good guy. But who is Marshmallow Marshalls allie, you ask? WELL NOZ OF COURSE!

So, children, please. Let us get here together tonight to burn Noz to ashes!

You are completly ignoring Soviet in this equation. You were complaining earlier of nobody responding to your questions, so I will ask you again:

The last few pages I have posted about Soviet, what are your thoughts on that? You and MM have both written soviet as "confirmed town".

[Ganelon]

Noz has been afk for pretty much the entire game - the only noteworthy thing he did was to vote me up.

[OzyWho]

What do you mean tomorrow? I roleclaimed with intent to lynch today. That post was up there for 12 hours without you commenting otherwise, now the roleclaim happened and you want to go another night?

-vote ozywho

Are you a madman? We can't figure out who is the liar TPR - you or MM, without another night.
We are at MyLo scenario - so why risk a lynch?
If we lynch anyone, then it should be one of the citizen group - Noz. For all I care - he is confirmed scum.

Wtf are you on about?
Whatever, leave me alone. Won't vote you, but will check you N2. This seems scummy af from you.

[Soviet_Love]

Ozy's post did make me thing - Distorted keeps saying nobody is jumping in to defend Noz. That could be because... well... Distorted is the one jumping in to save him.

[OzyWho]

The last few pages I have posted about Soviet, what are your thoughts on that? You and MM have both written soviet as "confirmed town".

You are seriously annoying me man. HOW MANY MORE TIMES WILL YOU RE-ASK ME A QUESTION THAT I ANSWERED YOU?

[OzyWho]

2nd or 3rd time in 1-2 hours. wtf man. I answered it you already.

[Distorted]

Ozy's post did make me thing - Distorted keeps saying nobody is jumping in to defend Noz. That could be because... well... Distorted is the one jumping in to save him.

you still have not yet posted reads on people that is what I am waiting for from you. but you are responding to other things - what reads do you have on everyone; I raelly do not think you have any, which is very common in scum.

[Distorted]

Ozy's post did make me thing - Distorted keeps saying nobody is jumping in to defend Noz. That could be because... well... Distorted is the one jumping in to save him.

Second i start pushing Ozy - Soviet comes in with accusations. I think we may be looking at an Ozy Soviet_Love team.

I have addressed multiple questions to you and you decide to come in when heat starts being put on Ozy?

[Distorted]

Are you a madman? We can't figure out who is the liar TPR - you or MM, without another night.
We are at MyLo scenario - so why risk a lynch?
If we lynch anyone, then it should be one of the citizen group - Noz. For all I care - he is confirmed scum.

Wtf are you on about?
Whatever, leave me alone. Won't vote you, but will check you N2. This seems scummy af from you.

I posted in yellow that I WOULD WANT A ROLLCALL ONLY IF WE LYNCHED THE SAME DAY - otherwise it just does more damage than good. That post was up for 12 hours and you never ONCE hinted on waiting another day. Now AFTER the rolecall you want to wait another day?

[Ganelon]

Also saying this right now, I'll be talking more. the first game was me watching to see how it's played here. (inb4 i lurk...AGAIN)

LMAO.

[Ganelon]

Sadly this is not how FM works... And even if only the scums were lying about their roles, I'd be against this.
There is why: TPRs (Town Power Roles) will probably want to claim Citizen in order to survive at night. You can't be 100% sure townies won't lie about their roles.

But the next this is that a mass rolecall only reveals TPRs in such a setup. I've played a very very very similar setup called Super Basic, 7 players with two TPRs two mafia (one mafioso one consig/consort) and 3 citizens. A massive rolecall was ordered, and all the TPRs (two detectives, I was one ) died. Then our dear host Gyrlander won as scum, even if (s?)he had claimed doctor before. Gyrlander managed to convince players that she had claimed Doctor in order to act as a meat shield, so the real TPRs wouldn't get killed. The game ended on a Mafia win. I don't want to see such a thing again.


So short story: NO MASS ROLE CALL ON DAY ONE.

This might be why they targeted you, @Marshmallow Marshall . If they did indeed role block you.

[Soviet_Love]

Giving in depth reads is very time consuming.

Before, my tops were MOST TOWN (1) Distorted (2) MM (3) Ozy (4) Magoroth (5) Noz MOST SCUM but now I need to rethink.

It would make more sense to do groups of reads: Just reads among soviet/noz/mag and just reads among distorted/mm/ozy.

[Soviet_Love]

I did also suggest that Ozy might be scum claiming to have invested mag bc he knows town, or that they are both scum (although that's a bold strategy and i think unlikely)

[Ganelon]

Im all for a role claim in this scenario i have nothing to hide im only a mere ctizen

This might be why they killed Blink.

[Distorted]

LMAO.

yeah. lol AFKs were the reason 2 games ago the game was lost. Suntax AFKed and he was killed over it. AFKs have really been fking these games up. But he is on "reserve" next game. I think harsher punishments need to start coming into play for people who afk - such as not being able to play the next game, having to wait 1 game in between each time they afk.

[OzyWho]

Now AFTER the rolecall you want to wait another day?

You should reread day2 from the start. You got something wrong somewhere..
Day1 - i'm for abstaining 100% of the day.
Day2- i'm for abstaining and for no role claim at start, then for role claim and neutral on lynch/abstain, then for and against abstaining/lynching - on and off.
You see me wanting to lynch before the rolecall? Where? Enligten me, plz.

[Distorted]

Giving in depth reads is very time consuming.

Before, my tops were MOST TOWN (1) Distorted (2) MM (3) Ozy (4) Magoroth (5) Noz MOST SCUM but now I need to rethink.

It would make more sense to do groups of reads: Just reads among soviet/noz/mag and just reads among distorted/mm/ozy.

but you must have basic reads on peoples behavior and be able to catagorize them with a reason why they are there... I dont think you have been developing character reads on people which is a huge red flag. stating math is simple, logical, factual, and comes off well. I find this really really strange that is the only information you have. I think you WIFOMed this.

[Ganelon]

Omg what the hell is that big terrible slip XD EXPLAIN YOURSELF SOVIET!!!

What slip? I'm not accusing you; please explain.

[Distorted]

You should reread day2 from the start. You got something wrong somewhere..
Day1 - i'm for abstaining 100% of the day.
Day2- i'm for abstaining and for no role claim at start, then for role claim and neutral on lynch/abstain, then for and against abstaining/lynching - on and off.
You see me wanting to lynch before the rolecall? Where? Enligten me, plz.

I dont see you wanting to lynch - but you seem to have decided to "not talk about things" until tomorrow. Well you are the only 1 so far with the mentality that there will be no lynch today and basing your theories off of that. A no lynch right now puts it at if 1 person votes wrong, it is GG. plus we would be losing another town opinion or possibly 2 people and ending the game tonight.

There has been a lot of mention of an Arson, that concerns me.

[Ganelon]

@Marshmallow Marshall

[Distorted]

What slip? I'm not accusing you; please explain.

that was directed at SOVIET not you =P

[Distorted]

What slip? I'm not accusing you; please explain.

the slip he was talking about was something about refering to witches as "we", making it sound like he is talking about himself and his partner.

[Ganelon]

Ah, alright.

[Distorted]

@Soviet_Love

Off the top of your head what is ur feeling on everyone and why?? You are still on so it's obvious you are reading through forming it. I do not think you have been paying attention to individual reads; since as scum, you do not have to.

-vote soviet_love

[OzyWho]

I dont see you wanting to lynch - but you seem to have decided to "not talk about things" until tomorrow.

Not wanting to role claim is not wanting to talk about things?
Well let me ask you something: does it make sense? A sheriff who didn't find anything N1 not wanting to roleclaim so he can investigate again?
Or that he supports roleclaiming the moment when in his eyes one other townie is confirmed, leaving 2 out of 3 suspects to be evil?

You claim i didn't want to discuss anything before roleclaiming.
@Magoroth , @Soviet_Love , Noz_Bugz[/mention,
@Marshmallow Marshall - does anyone else agree on that claim of his?

@Distorted , what is your problem with me exactly?

[Ganelon]

Alright, look:

IF Soviet is a Witch, then:

The Witches have another killing role. Possibly an undetectable Arsonist? In which case the Sheriff claim (Ozy) is going to look suspicious VERY soon. It's practically useless in such a setup - it's a Naive Cop, basically. And it is a perfect hiding place for a scum - buddying a potentially 'good' player. Still, I was under suspicion Day 1 - it would make little sense for a scum to try to buddy me. Then again, there's 3 people in this game - scum could form a voting block with me, preventing you from lynching today.

IF we are prevented from lynching, a Townie will obviously die at night, but which one, and, for that matter, how many?

IF Soviet is a witch, his partner could be one of the TPRs:

Either Marshmallow or Ozy.

[Distorted]

Not wanting to role claim is not wanting to talk about things?
Well let me ask you something: does it make sense? A sheriff who didn't find anything N1 not wanting to roleclaim so he can investigate again?
Or that he supports roleclaiming the moment when in his eyes one other townie is confirmed, leaving 2 out of 3 suspects to be evil?

You claim i didn't want to discuss anything before roleclaiming.
@Magoroth , @Soviet_Love , Noz_Bugz[/mention,
@Marshmallow Marshall - does anyone else agree on that claim of his?

@Distorted , what is your problem with me exactly?

my biggest scum read came from you not wanting to look into TPRs (until tomorrow) thus also keeping yourself out of the spotlight. Soviet jumped in pretty quick to defend u when i started pushing you. Also, what do you think about Soviet not being able to give a brief summary on people? You are new, first game here, have been paying attention and you are able to give brief reads. Soviet has been very active and posting a lot of analysis on the game, NONE of which is related to individual reads, meaning he hasnt been paying attention that closely to how people are active; since that doenst effect scum too much.

[Ganelon]

Something very weird is happening here - suddenly I am not under suspicion anymore. What happened?

[Distorted]

Alright, look:

IF Soviet is a Witch, then:

The Witches have another killing role. Possibly an undetectable Arsonist? In which case the Sheriff claim (Ozy) is going to look suspicious VERY soon. It's practically useless in such a setup - it's a Naive Cop, basically. And it is a perfect hiding place for a scum - buddying a potentially 'good' player. Still, I was under suspicion Day 1 - it would make little sense for a scum to try to buddy me. Then again, there's 3 people in this game - scum could form a voting block with me, preventing you from lynching today.

IF we are prevented from lynching, a Townie will obviously die at night, but which one, and, for that matter, how many?

IF Soviet is a witch, his partner could be one of the TPRs:

Either Marshmallow or Ozy.

if soviet is a witch his partner would HAVE to be one of the TPRs since there is 1 extra claim on both cit and TPR.

[Distorted]

Something very weird is happening here - suddenly I am not under suspicion anymore. What happened?

Read this page and the last 1. You are still not a town read but I found something and I am running with it. Just because you are susp doenst mean the focus will stay on u all game - how can we find leads if we just pressure 1 person all game?

[Ganelon]

if soviet is a witch his partner would HAVE to be one of the TPRs since there is 1 extra claim on both cit and TPR.

Yeah, basically.

[Distorted]

Read this page and the last 1. You are still not a town read but I found something and I am running with it. Just because you are susp doenst mean the focus will stay on u all game - how can we find leads if we just pressure 1 person all game?

well let me correct that - everyone except soviet and Ozy have a slight town read for me now until this situation plays itself out.

Soviet is still here, has been for over an hour and is not posting character references. I dont want a huge wall post, if anything that will show that you WERE NOT paying attention. I want an off the top of the head read, but after over an hour of waiting for it I don't think he has a base read on anyone BECAUSE SCUM DOES NOT NEED TO! I think he coasted WIFOM with the "analyzing" the statistics of the setup.

[Distorted]

My vote on Soviet is currently with intent to lynch. And Ozy still avoiding acknowledging anything I say about soviet. You said you wanted to talk about citizens today, well im doing just that and yet you still are not.