FMXII Signup Thread

[Auckmid]

this is gonna be the best fm host in history.

Lolz.

Nice one

[straykiwi]

/sign

I have never played in a FM before, therefore I cannot metagame.
Also I am a talented manipulator !~

[Blazer]

/sign

I have never played in a FM before, therefore I cannot metagame.
Also I am a talented manipulator !~

You can accidentally meta-game. Possible? Yes. Hard? Not for some T.T

[straykiwi]

You can accidentally meta-game. Possible? Yes. Hard? Not for some T.T

Yeah but even in sc2 mafia I hate the metagame. In my setups I avoid sheriff and investigator roles for 'role calling metagame' and instead add manipulative roles like vigilante bodyguard and veteran, and detective and lookout.

[Ganondorf]

PLZ MAKE ME GANONDORF AND WAAAGH ON THE SAME MAFIA TEAM PLZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ WE WILL TOTALLY WIN THIS TIME!!!!!

LEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOY JEEENKIIINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MagmaRam]

/sign man I don't even know what metagame is anymore someone metagamed the metagame so that metagame metagame metagame

[creedkingsx]

/sign man I don't even know what metagame is anymore someone metagamed the metagame so that metagame metagame metagame

Why does your name seem so familiar

[MagmaRam]

Why does your name seem so familiar

I am everywhere. At all times. Also because it's a mythical sheeprambeast that moves continents that I made up in TL IRC one day waiting for GSL to start.

[TheJackofSpades]

/sign me up

Question: What exactly is classified as metagaming and what will be the repercussions?

Digging for forum names/name claims using info from old FMs/MFMs?

Chatting about the game on skype? (this happens every time even if there are rules against it..)

I will make a more conclusive subset of specific things I do not wish to see occur in FM12 closer to the start of the game but basically the general rule of thumb will be something along the lines of: If you're pulling information from outside of night chats, night action PMs, and day chat in order to justify an argument or proving a point or creating a counterpoint, don't fucking do it.

I'll provide two seperate examples:
1) Establishing someone is jailed by asking them to read off the subforum title.
2) We should lynch Jack because he isn't talkative or helpful when he's scum.

The meta play in FM is getting to be completely out of control. I'm not certain Elixir is correct in blaming FMX for this but if it's allowed to it will spiral out of control to the point where the game simply won't be fun anymore for scum. No one can balance around metagame play, the game should be about the setup and the game itself.

[Blazer]

...I'm sorry T.T I won't do it again. I promise....I understand if you don't want me to play though....

[Adolf Hitler]

/Unterschrift

Ich wünsche, die Maffia zu hängen, da sie den Willen der deutschen Leute untergraben, um bedrückend, Zionist-Verbrecher-Organisationen der zu stürzen, zerstört die deutsche Wirtschaft.

[FrostByte]

/sign

[Bruno]

/sign

[FrostByte]

/Unterschrift

Ich wünsche, die Maffia zu hängen, da sie den Willen der deutschen Leute untergraben, um bedrückend, Zionist-Verbrecher-Organisationen der zu stürzen, zerstört die deutsche Wirtschaft.

Babelfish much?

[McJesus]

Wait so let me understand this correctly? We aren't going to have anonymous accounts and we are not expected to meta game?!? This is doomed to fail.

[Deathfire123]

Wait so let me understand this correctly? We aren't going to have anonymous accounts and we are not expected to meta game?!? This is doomed to fail.

It's called modkilling the assholes who dare try to ruin the fun

[trineroks]

What's up with hosts no longer letting people play SFM/MFM while playing FM at the same time? :[

[Ganondorf]

What's up with hosts no longer letting people play SFM/MFM while playing FM at the same time? :[

There were people that spent more time playing MFM than the actual FM, and they were getting very inactive...

[Capitalier]

What's up with hosts no longer letting people play SFM/MFM while playing FM at the same time? :[

I will try to wait for MFM 7 to end before starting.

[Sumikoko]

We should lynch Jack because he isn't talkative or helpful when he's scum.

This is certainly something very hard to prevent, as we're completely dropping the veil this time on identities, and some people simply have very distinct playstyles coupled with the fact that forum mafia has a fairly closely knit community. Even if not explicitly stated as reasons for day chat, your power roles are simply going to investigate/jail/shoot/chainsaw these people with the underlying bias that they're scum simply because of their playstyle changes, and thus get concrete evidence from these biases from personal experience.

/sine

[Rihfok]

Chill. Noone knows my playstyle yet. It will all be cool. I don't know other people playstyles too, so my playing will be more unbiased.

New players are so cool sometimes.

[FalseTruth]

If you remove anonymity, the game will become more meta, not less. People will vote based on how they feel a player would play when he is scum or town.

For example, I tend to be a lot quieter when I am scum and don't post a lot of helpful stuff like role lists. People could take notice to this and vote me solely for that reason. Is that a legitimate strategic maneuver? How would you prevent it from happening?

There is no way to monitor that metagame bias if they post no words or very few words to compliment their vote. You wouldn't be able to modkill them for it because you have no way of know why they voted me. They could just as well use a different reason to justify their vote and start a bandwagon, but the initial suspicion would be due to metagaming.

It's as if you want more privacy while taking a piss, but you leave the door open instead of closing it.

I'm inclined to believe your motivation for not wanting anonymity stems from not wanting to create the accounts. If that is the case, just say it. Don't frame it as if you actually are trying to solve the problem when you are undoing the only preventive measure we have.

[Crimson]

To be honest, I'm all for non-anon or anon because if we are using non-anon I will surely not die unless Claw wants revenge on me. People just don't see me as a threat.

Non-anon will bring back memories of my first FM, FM2, in which I was cheated out of MVP.


Anon, however, might be overall the best choice. It's not a big deal, I'm down with whatever.

[Nick]

Wait so let me understand this correctly? We aren't going to have anonymous accounts and we are not expected to meta game?!? This is doomed to fail.

Banning metagame (beyond game environment) discussion completely is fine. It won't harm the game. You still can use metagame information such as speech pattern, posting time, etc. but just keep it to yourself? Not too sure about people with night chats though...

If anything, metagame spoils RP and anonymous accounts.

What's up with hosts no longer letting people play SFM/MFM while playing FM at the same time? :[

Call it
1) Concentrate in one game
2) Give everyone a chance
3) No hogging games
4) Leak of metagame information

There were people that spent more time playing MFM than the actual FM, and they were getting very inactive...

Not sure if this has actually happened yet.

This is certainly something very hard to prevent, as we're completely dropping the veil this time on identities, and some people simply have very distinct playstyles coupled with the fact that forum mafia has a fairly closely knit community. Even if not explicitly stated as reasons for day chat, your power roles are simply going to investigate/jail/shoot/chainsaw these people with the underlying bias that they're scum simply because of their playstyle changes, and thus get concrete evidence from these biases from personal experience.

I guess constantly trying different playstyles or be consistent will somehow solve the problem. The issues with non-anonymous account is that solo evil roles are almost impossible to win for certain people, and the high expectations on veteran players to contribute.

[Luna]

I still like the anon accounts because, well, they're just a bit of fun where you get to pick funny avatars and create a little persona You can also end up having little bonding moments with people you've never spoken to before. Besides, no one guessed who I was in FMXI mwahaha.

I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

[Luna]

Aww FMXI has been archived already? I wanted to see the epilogue

[Elixir]

I'm writing the epilogue to be epic enough to make up for the non epic day threads. It will be rather large. I also have to deliberate on 'awards'

It will take some time.

In the meanwhile,

/sign.

[philie]

I agree with False on that one.
Generally anyone unhelpful is probably scum or bored citizen, Jack or not. Its meta, too.
To prevent them from asking meta questions like what was name of the chat, make all that info public, revealing it to anyone interested in knowing.
Mafia wasn't screwed because of meta last game, anyway. It was screwed by luck. To remedy that you could give cult a vest or something, but don't blame it on something that had no hand in this.

[Kony]

Kony dislike anon accounts

[Muso]

I agree with philie and false. I also don't understand why anybody would point the finger at Yayap for the game being as it is, when he went to huge lengths to make metagaming unreliable (individual PMs), variable search investigation results, etc. People are always going to want to use whatever information they have, and it's unfair to expect people to ignore information they've discerned. The use of non anon accounts is going to exacerbate this 'problem' soo much.

Are you going to force the vigilante to quote players' posts extensively and provide extensive sound reasoning before being able to fire their gun? Because otherwise, now they're caught in the situation that they know Jack is unhelpful and quiet when he's scum, and they know exactly who Jack is, but they don't have to explicitly state it to fire their gun so it's all cool.

This is surely more metagaming, not less.

[TheJackofSpades]

If you remove anonymity, the game will become more meta, not less.

The game is just as meta with anonymity as it is without it. It's like you're just playing devil's advocate with me here. Think about what anonymity offers to the game: Protection from targeted attacks and investigations. Whenever someone comes under the gun they're immediately expected to claim com identity. That is the extent of anonymity, and for the most part it is solely to the town's benefit because non-anonymous scum can always claim framed.

People will vote based on how they feel a player would play when he is scum or town.

For example, I tend to be a lot quieter when I am scum and don't post a lot of helpful stuff like role lists. People could take notice to this and vote me solely for that reason. Is that a legitimate strategic maneuver? How would you prevent it from happening?

Prevention is already in place for the most part. Being unable to quantify a reason for voting is always considered scummy, and band wagoning without one is doubly so. That excuse is also a load of shit. I don't recall a single person being lynched based on the merit of who they were rather than what they were doing in FM6. You guys speak like you only heard about non-anonymous FMs in hushed whispers from your parents before bedtime. Every single one of you have fucking been apart of them.

There is no way to monitor that metagame bias if they post no words or very few words to compliment their vote. You wouldn't be able to modkill them for it because you have no way of know why they voted me. They could just as well use a different reason to justify their vote and start a bandwagon, but the initial suspicion would be due to metagaming.

Same thing as above. But they actually got physical evidence from the game to back up their suspicion.

I'm inclined to believe your motivation for not wanting anonymity stems from not wanting to create the accounts. If that is the case, just say it. Don't frame it as if you actually are trying to solve the problem when you are undoing the only preventive measure we have.

Yeah that's totally our motivation... except we're still distributing accounts to account for a possible disguiser.

Look um... I'm earnestly unsure of why some of the supposed "veterans" have such a hard time putting aside information gained from improper means. Is it really so hard to just play the game from a game-by-game basis?

People are always going to want to use whatever information they have, and it's unfair to expect people to ignore information they've discerned.

No, it's not unfair. People expect information to be ignored that was gathered unlawfully all the time. It's called our judicial system. If any of you really find it so hard to do so maybe it's best you sit this one out.

[McJesus]

what exactly is the motivation for removing anonymous accounts?

Also unlawfully obtained evidence can't just be ignored, that is why there are mistrials. A jury can't just be like "yeah I never saw that" it will make an impression on them regardless.

[Kovath]

Easy: make it modkillable, to (claim COM, ask for COM, say someone is scum without evidence because of outside, etc.)

It's true that veterans will know people's COM. But if they are unable to share that with others to prove their accusations/tells then it's useless.

I kinda agree with Jack, it's not fair to base player's styles and experience from COM. It just adds an unwanted element to the game that unbalances the setup.

[Luna]

Meh it's not a problem we can fix - if you're worried about your COM identity then try to play in a way which isn't like you.

It's like when you're playing in a game where the feedback messages are made publicly available... people will STILL ask you to quote PMs. Especially hilarious when you're asked to quote the PMs you sent *to* the GM.

[Kony]

or we play this in real life and when dead we have no problem with identity next game

[Rihfok]

or we play this in real life and when dead we have no problem with identity next game

I want to do this.

[Clawtrocity]

Sign me up

[Capitalier]

I'm inclined to believe your motivation for not wanting anonymity stems from not wanting to create the accounts. If that is the case, just say it. Don't frame it as if you actually are trying to solve the problem when you are undoing the only preventive measure we have.

I clearly stated that we're using different accounts to prevent you from randomly reading all the night chats.

[TheJackofSpades]

what exactly is the motivation for removing anonymous accounts?

I will answer your question but allow me to ask a counter-question first.

Why is it suddenly so important that anonymity is never deviated from?

[TheWaaagh]

I will answer your question but allow me to ask a counter-question first.

Why is it suddenly so important that anonymity is never deviated from?

Well the last time we had a non-anon game you did end up using a smurf instead of your actual account lol.

[Kony]

jack chicken cant be soldier not army join

[TheJackofSpades]

Well the last time we had a non-anon game you did end up using a smurf instead of your actual account lol.

https://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

My participation in FM6 under the guise of Brennenburg was an experiment on how much a new player could get away with before someone took notice. It was a valuable lesson while it lasted.

[TheWaaagh]

https://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...d-hominem.html

My participation in FM6 under the guise of Brennenburg was an experiment on how much a new player could get away with before someone took notice. It was a valuable lesson while it lasted.

It's not personally attacking you when there's contradictions in your own behaviors. You can't expect everyone else to be comfortable with a non-anon game when you yourself weren't. In fact I think what happened that game is proof of the flaw in your argument.

Once you revealed as Jack you were jailed and killed without even being talked to. You really don't think that kind of shit will happen again this time? I understand that you're going to post something later detailing your full plans for what constitutes metagame knowledge and how you'll penalize people for using it, but I just don't see, at this moment, how you'll prevent shit like that from happening. If a jailor opts to kill Yayap N1 without talking to him, are you just going to be like "write an essay on your decision or it doesn't happen"?

[TheJackofSpades]

It's not personally attacking you when there's contradictions in your own behaviors. You can't expect everyone else to be comfortable with a non-anon game when you yourself weren't. In fact I think what happened that game is proof of the flaw in your argument.

https://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...tu-quoque.html

Once you revealed as Jack you were jailed and killed without even being talked to. You really don't think that kind of shit will happen again this time? I understand that you're going to post something later detailing your full plans for what constitutes metagame knowledge and how you'll penalize people for using it, but I just don't see, at this moment, how you'll prevent shit like that from happening. If a jailor opts to kill Yayap N1 without talking to him, are you just going to be like "write an essay on your decision or it doesn't happen"?

I was killed because of my actions in-game and while jailed, not because of who I was.

[TheWaaagh]

I was killed because of my actions in-game and while jailed, not because of who I was.

I can't do reply quote but here's an excerpt from the night you died:

[1:59:35 AM] JackofSpades: This just in, I am a badass.
[3:03:37 AM] JackofSpades: You clearly underestimate my persuasive skills

Delusions of grandeur I think should be swiftly stopped.

Execute him. (Elixir Jail Chat N2 Post #7)

Jack is too arrogant, so don't let him bluff you. Execute him and be on your way. It will be doing everyone a favor.
(Fred Jail Chat N2 Post #6)

I guess you could argue that that was just your personality for "that one game" and that's why you died. But I think we both know that's not true. Or maybe we don't. I could also find posts if I wanted to from the other chats talking about other people, like Philie deciding to kill Yayap despite him saying in the game that he was openly siding with Lucifer. Or Eternity freaking out about Claw's actions, or everyone in general letting False take over the day 2 chat with his pretending to know who the devil was based purely on his reputation.

In fact I'll have to double back and check over the threads again, but didn't you reveal yourself as Jack because of how disappointed you were over not being listened to? That's my vague recollection of events anyway. And before you link more fallacies, I'm saying that your experiment should have shown that at the end of the day people are more likely to follow vets than come out and make a name for themselves. It sucks, but it's the truth. I remember Ambient saying that he killed people like me and Ubernox specifically because we were new and he knew that we wouldn't be the subject of any PR protection. That's still a layer of metagame whether you like it or not.

I still love you, even if I think your conclusion is wrong. Fallacy that.

[McJesus]

I will answer your question but allow me to ask a counter-question first.

Why is it suddenly so important that anonymity is never deviated from?

Because people's fm reputations play too big a part into things. In FMVI the first thing I did with eternity was investigate claw because he is claw and messes with everyone. When I found out he was a citizen I could ignore him off the bat for most of the game. Things like that happen and reputation comes into play. I'm not saying it can't work as I think it does work to an extent in the non-anonymous mfm's but I also think having anonymous accounts adds a layer of suspense into the game and allows you to play the way you want without preconceived notions.

[TheJackofSpades]

I can't do reply quote but here's an excerpt from the night you died:

[1:59:35 AM] JackofSpades: This just in, I am a badass.
[3:03:37 AM] JackofSpades: You clearly underestimate my persuasive skills

Delusions of grandeur I think should be swiftly stopped.

Execute him. (Elixir Jail Chat N2 Post #7)

Jack is too arrogant, so don't let him bluff you. Execute him and be on your way. It will be doing everyone a favor.
(Fred Jail Chat N2 Post #6)

Thank you for proving my point

I guess you could argue that that was just your personality for "that one game" and that's why you died. But I think we both know that's not true. Or maybe we don't. I could also find posts if I wanted to from the other chats talking about other people, like Philie deciding to kill Yayap despite him saying in the game that he was openly siding with Lucifer. Or Eternity freaking out about Claw's actions, or everyone in general letting False take over the day 2 chat with his pretending to know who the devil was based purely on his reputation.

Yayap was killed because his declaration and his actions contradicted. Claw is going to freak people out whether he is anonymous or not. That is proven from every FM since he started getting serious. Third point is conjecture and completely unarguable.

In fact I'll have to double back and check over the threads again, but didn't you reveal yourself as Jack because of how disappointed you were over not being listened to? That's my vague recollection of events anyway. And before you link more fallacies, I'm saying that your experiment should have shown that at the end of the day people are more likely to follow vets than come out and make a name for themselves. It sucks, but it's the truth. I remember Ambient saying that he killed people like me and Ubernox specifically because we were new and he knew that we wouldn't be the subject of any PR protection. That's still a layer of metagame whether you like it or not.

Incorrect. I revealed because I was being lynched.

Because people's fm reputations play too big a part into things. In FMVI the first thing I did with eternity was investigate claw because he is claw and messes with everyone. When I found out he was a citizen I could ignore him off the bat for most of the game. Things like that happen and reputation comes into play. I'm not saying it can't work as I think it does work to an extent in the non-anonymous mfm's but I also think having anonymous accounts adds a layer of suspense into the game and allows you to play the way you want without preconceived notions.

I am willing to trade night actions being influenced by "reputation" in order to free up unintended consequences of anonymity in being used as a weapon against scum. As long as reputation and the metagame is not the justification of the argument.

I'll answer your question when I get home from college tonight. It's a bit more wordy than I have time to offer atm.

[Nick]

Meh it's not a problem we can fix - if you're worried about your COM identity then try to play in a way which isn't like you.

I'm surprised nobody actually bothered to initiate an organized mass COM claim on Day3. One of the more pro-town moves. But dirty.

Shouldn't the discussion revolve on the extent of metagaming allowed? For example, sure, play psychological battle over skype for all you want, and make you personal vote/action accordingly, but once you begin discussing your results from skype and use it to rally town for a lynch then I think it has gone too far. It has yet to happen but I think we are inching closer and closer to the extreme.

[Rihfok]

I hope noone asks for me to quote any PMs or other stuff. Cuz I ain't doing that no matter what is my role, I consider that more like cheating.
I also think that banning COM claims in anonym games would be more or less good.
I think I will also try to play differently each game, so I don't evolve any specific behaviour.
I will be unreadable.

[Nick]

I hope noone asks for me to quote any PMs or other stuff.

The host can make different PMs and allow quoting of PMs but then the metagame will be... does that PM has the host's writing style...

Cuz I ain't doing that no matter what is my role, I consider that more like cheating.

Oh yeah? Die scum!