Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.
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  1. ISO #1

    Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    This is a document I have been adding to over the course of the game documenting what I think as a host and how unpredictable people can be. I also plan on going through my thoughts on each of my mechanics / changes and telling you how I thought they worked out. You can balance and plan as much as you like but in the end, it's all up to the players how it works out. I think of it as a basic foray into game design... seeing how the players react in certain situations with certain variables. I admit I still have a ways to go, but I hope the following gives you a little insight into what I was hoping/planning/thinking.




    Multiple Jailors / Jailor Sides:

    My intention with multiple jailors was to get people more involved at night, especially citizens. I then thought well... I dont really want all these jailors to start claiming in their chats and getting a mason like network of contacts so I decided to make the mafia jailor in the hope that distrust may follow and the jailors would have to try to get information and to make the chats work. In order to balance more jailors I needed to weaken them, especially seeing as one was mafia.

    All in all I think it worked for the most part, although it may have worked too well in that a lot of the discussion was based solely on the jail chats. Though I dont really mind. By the way, the reason I said no quoting is because there's a Vbulletin exploit from the quote link that allows you to see jailor chat.

    I think that the multiple Jailor arc has potentinal if not overused. I weakend them for my set up becaue I didnt want them to be rediculously game changing with super blocks and heaps of kills.

    The reason they cleaned was to make the Town Jailors really think about when to use it, because a cleaned role helps Mafia more than town.




    A Single Mafia:

    If I am to host another game, I will definately be going back to the 2 mafia set up. Though in 1 team you get the opportunity to control 1/3 of the vote and to plan as a collective unit, losing members early really bones the team, and losing a killing neutral early fucks the KPN to the point where the town has too much time. 2 Mafia set up pretty much guarantees a set KPN till at least the mid game.

    This game, now that I look at it, had a KPN too low even with the 3 jailors and the vig. I'm not sure what kind of effect the Revo would have had. An extra non town KPN would have changed the outcome entirely I think.




    The Mafia Coroner:


    My intention with this role was to make writing your Last Will a game in itself. And I saw a lot of people playing this game. I think it worked well having a fun way to lie to mafia and having to think carefully about what you put in the will, rather than it being a free ticket to an investigation log or something.

    I also want to note that the mafia were balanced around having an Exact Role Consigliere that was murdered night 1 too




    The Vig's Daykill:

    I wanted vig's kills to be more premeditated. You should have to think about who it is you want to kill before you do it. Rather than a sporadic im going to day kill this guy because he said something scummy. I think it worked




    Multuiple Sheriffs/Investigators:

    Though this seems like I want to stack the town, I intended there to be tension when it came to counter claiming, especially with a consig able to jump in and fabricate results using the handbook. With the consig being roasted it didn't work out as planned.

    Towards the end we saw a bit of a conflict, but it was nothing game changing or anything the Mafia could play on.




    Updated Revolutionist:


    Well I wanted the Revo to add to the KPN late game to build some form of dramatic tension in the late game. I don't know what effect this guy would have had cause he got stabbed.




    Random Night Events:

    I wanted there to be some element of randomness that could affect the outcome, though, as stated below, my intentions weren't very clear on a couple of the power nights. While I think there is some merit to this mechanic, I dont think I implemented it in a good way.




    Meta:

    This game has evolved and changed a lot since I hosted in fm5. A lot of this was changed with Yayaps FM that I didn't really follow. A lot of people 's first fm was Yayaps and his warped rules seemed to become base for these people. A lot of the things I didn't list in the rules because I thought they weren't needed were used and abused by some to their benefit. Yayap was very lenient on forum meta (such as pms, forum names etc). This is mostly my fault for not keeping up with it and going forward I will have to think very carefully about what people read my intentions as. On that note. On work of jailor forum names: I didn't even consider it by the way, proving again its very difficult to predict every movement your players will make in balancing.

    Another issue of Meta is attempting to find someones COM name in order to find out their play style from previous FMs to determine their alignment. It makes Anon names both required to attempt to stop this, and useless because people are always COM name hunting. I dont actually know what anyone can do about this now. New players wont have this meta knowledge and will be at a disadvantage.

    This actually extends further to players of straight FM and the regulars of the M-FM board. I saw the split from day 1 and a lot of the M-FM regulars seemed to be able to pick each other out fairly fast. Though I dont think this had much of an impact on gameplay, it was jsut an observation.




    Intentions:

    From reading feedback and some messages I've received, I'm not very good at relaying my actual intentions for anything. I started the game with a set framework in mind and when I made calls depicting to that framework, I got called out 'for changing the rules'. Some of these call outs were probably warranted now that I look back upon what was written. Again, going forward (assuming I host another one after this meta mess) I plan on taking great care in the pregame to ensure I have my exact thoughts on paper. Though, some people in particular (and I'm pretty sure they know who they are) killed my drive to create very early. I might just stick to the M-FM board from now on.

    I'm probably going to edit this as the game continues. I was thinking of locking this thread but I suppose I could use the feedback.




    Luck:


    Let's face it, a lot of this game, especially early days, is based on luck. Healing the right people, shooting the right people or investigating the right people. Sometimes, this luck can also be played in gambits. A cit can make a radical claim and actually get a sucm lynched based on pure dumb luck (unless they have been scumhunting of course) or a sheriff can find straight Mafia, so the element of chance will always make balancing a set up hard. IE: LOL REVOS DEAD NIGHT 1.
    Last edited by Forum Mafia GM; April 1st, 2012 at 07:13 AM.

  2. ISO #2
    Pantheon
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Yes, it was an unfortunate night 1 for the setup, was it not?

  3. ISO #3
    Morgana
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    In my opinion, if the foundation for the mafia mostly relies on one role (in this case, the OP Consigliere, as you stated), that role needs to be guaranteed safety for a night. This may just be my bitterness seeping in, but my death (or, this role's death) severely weakened the mafia right off the bat. Literally NO results were found and the mafia was left with no investigative roles (both remaining roles that could theoretically "investigate" do not provide 100% conclusive proof on living players).

    Once I realized the next day that there were at least 2 Town Jailors, a Sheriff, what appears to be at least 2 Investigators, a Vigilante, an Escort AND a possible Gunsmith/Armorsmith, the Town seemed severely stacked. The Mafia have few roles that can directly impact the game and words can only do so much when the Town has a plethora of night actions at their disposal that will rarely, if ever, be compromised (Witch [but it is known that these results are tampered with], Consort [same deal], Bus Driver [who can then vouch for others], etc.). A lack of Framers really hurt as well.

    The Cult, imo, just seemed to be tossed into the mix. It probably would have become interesting in the final third of the game (when both town and mafia would have to be wary about just who/how many are converted), but we'll never know. Perhaps the Cult Leader should have had a one-night immunity vest? One-time immunities are generally great for game-changing neutrals because it then makes the mafia second guess who they attacked.

    I don't know how you attempt to determine "balance" in the game before it begins (is it run by Luna? Or other moderators/admins?), but a greater emphasis on keeping the balance in the game is preferred, imo. In the last FM, the mafia lost quite a few of their members through town blundering (the jester lynch ended up killing an Arsonist and a mafia member, but that is their fault for voting for him in the first place). However, as there were 10 of them to begin with, along with 2 other killing neutrals and two non-town aligned witches, there was plenty of second guessing going on and a clear lack of investigative roles as they all died. The town had to make do.

    Admittedly, this FM is not yet over, but the KPN is too small for the mafia/SK to win this game. I've seen the Day threads and it's not looking good. Especially because I can guarantee that if I had not died night 1, the game as it is now would be a completely different affair (you can bet I was going to cause mayhem).

  4. ISO #4
    Nocturne
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    I agree with some of the things morganna said.

    Night 1 actions are the most important in the game. This night has the most roles alive and the most combinations for events. if anson peake had lived this night the game would have a totally different outcome.

    I think FM's are so much harder for the mafia to win because they last so long. The longer the game, the more chances for slip ups, COM identities to be discovered, and town networks to be established. It's just ridiculously easy for the town to win a FM if you think about it. What with 48 hour long days, 35+ people...

    I think FMXII should go back to the 2 mafia set up and be considerably more 'stacked' for mafia to win from an initial look.
    When I first saw the set up for this one I thought town was decent but mafia would have a very hard time. I didn't know about anson peake or the witches abilities at the time.


    As for FMXI I think if the witch makes some key kills with her 6 potential kills back to back nights it will swing favour back to the mafia. If Witch and mafia can establish a connection and remain undetected they can throw the town into the dumps. Eliminate the key roles and people who are vocal and town will be quiet and unproductive.

  5. ISO #5
    Pantheon
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    PS. I was the witch.

    Any thoughts on my playstyle, Elixir? How could I have improved?

  6. ISO #6
    Poppy
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantheon View Post
    PS. I was the witch.

    Any thoughts on my playstyle, Elixir? How could I have improved?
    Really? What were your night actions... Are you the reason I'm dead? >.>

  7. ISO #7
    Pantheon
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    :)

  8. ISO #8
    Poppy
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantheon View Post

    T.T

  9. ISO #9
    Jarvan IV
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pantheon View Post
    PS. I was the witch.

    Any thoughts on my playstyle, Elixir? How could I have improved?
    Wait.. if you're witch, then what the hell is Karthus?

  10. ISO #10
    Poppy
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    I'm just gonna take a random guess and say that Karthus is the SK (very little thought went into this guess).

  11. ISO #11

  12. ISO #12
    Maokai
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Just off the top of my head:
    I think the jailor thing would have worked much better if night immunity was not a part of the deal. I know this might seem weird but the amount of protection this game around was already ridiculous and the addition of three jailors was not very helpful

    I am specifically addressing the problem that arose from the consig dying n1 in my own setup by making every mafia role as even in power as possible. Among other things.

    In terms of multiple investigators/sheriffs... I don't know man, it could have gone the way you wanted I guess, but it was more likely that the mafia would just be butchered instead.

    In regards to the change in the meta... well, that's a whole different thread. Honestly I think it best if we return to non-anon games, because it's pretty clear at this point that no one gives a fuck about being anonymous anymore. The town just uses it as another weapon with no conceivable countermeasure.

  13. ISO #13
    Garen
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maokai View Post
    Just off the top of my head:
    I think the jailor thing would have worked much better if night immunity was not a part of the deal. I know this might seem weird but the amount of protection this game around was already ridiculous and the addition of three jailors was not very helpful

    I am specifically addressing the problem that arose from the consig dying n1 in my own setup by making every mafia role as even in power as possible. Among other things.

    In terms of multiple investigators/sheriffs... I don't know man, it could have gone the way you wanted I guess, but it was more likely that the mafia would just be butchered instead.

    In regards to the change in the meta... well, that's a whole different thread. Honestly I think it best if we return to non-anon games, because it's pretty clear at this point that no one gives a fuck about being anonymous anymore. The town just uses it as another weapon with no conceivable countermeasure.
    I second the no anon account thing. It's too much hassle . But if there is no anon then no one takes me seriously. So torn, convenience or authority?

  14. ISO #14
    Udyr
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Lack of anonymity would be awful. New players would never be taken seriously and the veterans would be unable to protect themselves from constant scrutiny. The game would focus on killing the big name players first instead of a search for the actual roles. The game would probably be more meta than it is now.

    What we need is the exact opposite solution. We need to somehow make anonymity more secure, more viable. People who don't care about anonymity should announce their COM immediately. It is their loss and they can choose to forgo their advantage. We shouldn't be complaining if they decide to do so. However, scumhunting through COM roles only is unacceptable. That shouldn't be the means of finding evil roles.

    What happened on skype was viewable to all in the Forum Mafia Skype chat. Anyone in that chat could have picked up on what I saw and drawn the exact same conclusions. Raptor could have placed it there to confuse us, it's all WIFOM. What if he put that there trying to get me to think he was mafia?

    Fact is, I actually didn't learn anything from the chat at all. I only THOUGHT I learned things when actually, I had merely WIFOM my way into a correct conclusion. It was luck, and purely luck, that led me to conclude that Kennen and Orianna were mafia.

    About those rumors, I will only say I am not the cause of his distress, if he is even distressed.

  15. ISO #15
    Maokai
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udyr View Post
    Lack of anonymity would be awful. New players would never be taken seriously and the veterans would be unable to protect themselves from constant scrutiny. The game would focus on killing the big name players first instead of a search for the actual roles. The game would probably be more meta than it is now.

    What we need is the exact opposite solution. We need to somehow make anonymity more secure, more viable. People who don't care about anonymity should announce their COM immediately. It is their loss and they can choose to forgo their advantage. We shouldn't be complaining if they decide to do so. However, scumhunting through COM roles only is unacceptable. That shouldn't be the means of finding evil roles.
    That's pretty rich coming from you.

    But no, new players would only be ignored if A) they deserved to be B) Community can't act like adults and pay attention to people without a name brand attached. "Veterans" would be targeted by both protection and attacks respectively. The only person endangered by non-anonymity is me because I am both hated and experienced so I will simply die. Do I care? No, because I'm willing to take that chance in order to defang parts of the metagame I find cheapening.

  16. ISO #16
    Alistar
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Wait there is a forum mafia skype chat? How does one join this chat?

    I would like to add my thoughts, the closest the mafia ever came to winning was FMV where the only reason the mafia lost was because there was two separate teams and they had to kill each other off. A lot of the reason they got so close that game was because of the town's horrible mislynches and the fact everyone shit their pants trying to lynch the soul of the beast. I think the reason the mafia has failed so miserably in the past couple forum mafia's is the lack of other scum factions. There is no real forum mafia balance but I think a good forum mafia game needs at least a cult and preferably two mafia teams. I would like to see forum mafia XII return to this format. Obviously luck is going to play a huge part in things and with so many power roles there is no way of avoiding that. I don't think going to a more citizen heavy game is the answer though because the power roles make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

    as for anonymity is this even a debate? There is no way forum mafia would work if the players weren't anonymous. If you want to give your COM though that is your prerogative, as is lying about your COM. I think anonymity is fine the way it is.

  17. ISO #17
    Maokai
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alistar View Post
    I would like to see forum mafia XII return to this format. Obviously luck is going to play a huge part in things and with so many power roles there is no way of avoiding that. I don't think going to a more citizen heavy game is the answer though because the power roles make the game more enjoyable for everyone.

    as for anonymity is this even a debate? There is no way forum mafia would work if the players weren't anonymous. If you want to give your COM though that is your prerogative, as is lying about your COM. I think anonymity is fine the way it is.
    I agree with the first paragraph because we had already planned to do so before this game.

    But your second paragraph is formed simply from ignorance. Non-anonymous FMs HAVE worked in the past. There is no "it wouldn't work". What you need to realize is that anonymity's only purpose is to protect the town. Every metagame advantage and strategy that arises from it benefits the town. For example, when I feigned ghost in the final day of this FM, I was thwarted simply by COM identity trading that would not have been an option had the game not been anonymous. Instead of it being a situation of "LOL WHO WERE YOU" it would have been a matter of the merit of my actual argument(which was impossible because there's no way the ghost could possess the night they died).

    And who knows. Maybe if every "veteran" dies, new players will actually have a chance of making a name for themselves.

  18. ISO #18
    Irelia
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FM Game Master
    On that note. On work of jailor forum names: I didn't even consider it by the way, proving again its very difficult to predict every movement your players will make in balancing.
    Sorry T.T

  19. ISO #19
    Nunu
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Honestly, the thing the game most showed me was that at the moment, I realy don't have much time at all for FM. I might not sign up for the next one, until summer holiday, when I've got lots of spare time.

    The game was well hosted. However, as I said pre-game, the setup favoured a town win far to heavily. Losing the revoulutionary leader N1 was a big blow, and a serial killer, witch, and 7 man mafia with a total KPN of 2 simply wasnt nearly enough to take on the town.

    Thx Elixir

    Edit: Didn't take long for me to change my mind:P.
    Last edited by ; April 3rd, 2012 at 06:02 PM.

  20. ISO #20
    Graves
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Game was still a lot of fun Mafia had some bad luck but there was some interesting discussion.

    Though I'm still mad about Jarvan, he still gets my vote as one of the worst Citizens in FM history.

    On a personal note many people tried to discern my identity and not a single person got it right. Mission accomplished

    It's a shame that the game finished when it did, I'd been fairly busy for portions of this game and I was all set for one final hurrah where I could lead the charge on the remaining scum with amazing analysis. Analysis which, if I'm completely honest, would have led to me trying to lynch a couple of Town players.

  21. ISO #21
    Graves
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    Btw Graves is my favourite AD carry and possibly my favourite all time Champ - the only other close contenders are Rammus, Taric and possibly Malz.

  22. ISO #22
    Graves
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    And I agree with the single mafia thing. It makes sense, maybe giving the mafia 2 kpn until their numbers dropped below 4 was also a good step, but there's something quite... exciting about having two mafia teams. It also lets members from one mafia team genuinely play pro-Town in their attempt to find the other team.

  23. ISO #23
    Nunu
    Guest

    Re: Intentions, Thoughts and Conclusions.

    I think that what Lix said about the 1 mafia team helps sum it up. In previous FM games, the problems came when the town became to panicky and chaotic from all the different factions. This time, the problems came from the lack of KPN, which caused the town to be way too relaxed.

 

 

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