S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD - Page 32
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  1. ISO #1551

  2. ISO #1552

  3. ISO #1553

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    Are you saying I knew my vote on varc was a hammer?
    Look me in the face and say you didn't know voting Varcron wasn't a hammer

    You voted with 1 minute left in the day
    You voted right after posting a big wall on him saying that you wanted to lynch Frinckles day 2 super fast
    You voted right after I announced putting him at L-1

    YES, you knew 1344,1345, 1358, 1359

  4. ISO #1554

  5. ISO #1555
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Lmao if you really wanna hear me scream at people then sure I’ll play along:

    Aamirus is 100% scum because of how she pointed out Renegade without actually trying to get him lynched. Her post to Frinckles reeks of manipulation (the one she just made). Also her tone is really weird. Usually town aamirus is really aggressive and very inquisitive but she more or less only faintly attacked him. Lastly her calling out Renegade could be seen as an attempt to both bus Renegade for toenpints and to pocket me, since I didn’t want to be lynched. Honestly couldn’t have worked better because I really had been getting weird vibes from Renegade over his statistics games and him lightly defending me.

    naz is 100% scum because of how indecisive and very unwilling to point fingers she has been. She’s been trying to push fear lynched on Frinckles for a while now without actually having them gain any momentum at all. Lastly, the way she voted me instead of Renegade is really quite telling IMO.

    SJ is 100% scum because he had a better reason, earlier on, than anyone else, to be voting Renegade. And then accused me of wanting to stifle discussion because I called out Ceko for trying too hard. Btw off note but I would fall that out every game lol. And, someone said that his table earned him town points? It should’ve earned him the EXACT opposite lol. Whenever you see people making tables and trying to be helpful and shit, they’re quite often scum... and then he bussed Renegade for mega town points.

    the way aamirus has been pushing this thing with the nulls not being scum makes me think one of the nulls is her scum partner. Although she would notably be doing that too if she’s town, as she’s been AFK for most of the game.

    there. I don’t want to write a post on noz because I don’t think she’s scum. Like at all lol. I’ve seen noz afk as scum before, and as town too, it isn’t AI for her.

  6. ISO #1556

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    I’ll just shut up. I’m honestly just pissed off and got no clue what’s happening.

    -vote naz

    i don’t give a shit anymore just lynch whoever. I’ll sheep Frinckles since he can’t be scum. I would say that I was just eating the waters but that would be a lie.

    if I try to come up with a reasonable argument this game I’ll just fuck up. I’m tunneling and being inconsistent at the same time. Im not of much use to anyone this game, so honestly if you want to lynch me, I can perfectly understand that. I’ll just sheep whoever. I can’t hokd an argument this game unfortunately. Good luck town
    I will defend you with my life against frinckles.

  7. ISO #1557

  8. ISO #1558

  9. ISO #1559

  10. ISO #1560
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Idk this debate over Varcron seems dumb honestly. I did not have a read on Varcron. Why push against Frinckles for a null lynch? Especially if you hammered.

    Frinckles isn this big baddy who’s gonna mislynch all of us lol. Who the fuck is he in a team with? Please do not say he is ina team with me because I will turbolynxh you. Like if you can’t look at Frinckles town and realize he’s town I don’t know what to tell you. This is literally ?krc Frinckles. The same one. He was town that game, I was scum.

    this is one of the reasons I hate it when people try to fear lynch distorted because his scum game is so good.

  11. ISO #1561
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    ty I am good at scam.
    Imagine if I’m scum and winning by playing this way

  12. ISO #1562
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    So, that’s really it. Aamirus naz SJ. I’m never lynching noz lol.

  13. ISO #1563

  14. ISO #1564

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Lmao if you really wanna hear me scream at people then sure I’ll play along:

    Aamirus is 100% scum because of how she pointed out Renegade without actually trying to get him lynched. Her post to Frinckles reeks of manipulation (the one she just made). Also her tone is really weird. Usually town aamirus is really aggressive and very inquisitive but she more or less only faintly attacked him. Lastly her calling out Renegade could be seen as an attempt to both bus Renegade for toenpints and to pocket me, since I didn’t want to be lynched. Honestly couldn’t have worked better because I really had been getting weird vibes from Renegade over his statistics games and him lightly defending me.

    naz is 100% scum because of how indecisive and very unwilling to point fingers she has been. She’s been trying to push fear lynched on Frinckles for a while now without actually having them gain any momentum at all. Lastly, the way she voted me instead of Renegade is really quite telling IMO.

    SJ is 100% scum because he had a better reason, earlier on, than anyone else, to be voting Renegade. And then accused me of wanting to stifle discussion because I called out Ceko for trying too hard. Btw off note but I would fall that out every game lol. And, someone said that his table earned him town points? It should’ve earned him the EXACT opposite lol. Whenever you see people making tables and trying to be helpful and shit, they’re quite often scum... and then he bussed Renegade for mega town points.

    the way aamirus has been pushing this thing with the nulls not being scum makes me think one of the nulls is her scum partner. Although she would notably be doing that too if she’s town, as she’s been AFK for most of the game.

    there. I don’t want to write a post on noz because I don’t think she’s scum. Like at all lol. I’ve seen noz afk as scum before, and as town too, it isn’t AI for her.
    I don't agree with the SJ stuff but the thing on aamirus seems good. I had the same sort of tone read and the vote information is all I really needed to cement this PL into a read lynch. I'll chalk it up to classic distancing unless she explains her vote.

    The stuff on naz is uh yes true. There was some promised activity tomorrow, so we could wait and see or not. Maybe she will never post.
    Noz isn't read as scum.. but I don't think can really accurately be read as town either due to the lack of posts made, and more, the lack of committal posts. Did she put a vote up day 1?

  15. ISO #1565

  16. ISO #1566

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by secondpassing View Post
    What if.. scum wasn't voting?
    What if.. scum voting for someone outside those trains.

    I think scum would more likely be scared to be pushing those agendas. That's expecting the scum to be obvious players.
    I see it far more likely that a scum was not around often enough to use those voting tactics, come back, and assume the worst is going to happen.. which means Renegade will get lynched for his poor play (even I found him to be worth a second vigilante shot this game) and that they should distancethemselves as far as possible.

    So if someone would bring up the vote count, perhaps there was a scum on ganelon, and to distance themselves from the scum voting ganelon, either another scum with a no-vote or a vote on someone else like naz or noz or varc or something.
    Did you even read the post you quoted lol? Also I don’t think there was any more votes. Maybe 1 random old vote somewhere? You’re talking about hypothetical scenarios that literally couldn’t have happened cuz there were was nobody else being voted. I guess before I left Frinckles got put to L-2 as an alternative to Renegade or myself... but IIIIIII was the first person to unvote Frinckles and derail that train (ur slot followed me) so it again makes zero sense for me to do that from a scum perspective.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  17. ISO #1567

  18. ISO #1568
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    OKOKOK guys I got this thought process from MU


    if I flipped green, so what?
    Dunno, go after aamirus? There is literally nobody you could be in a team with apart form
    me and Renegade. And honestly I would love to see someone pushing that idea because I will turbo lynch them.

  19. ISO #1569

  20. ISO #1570

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Lmao if you really wanna hear me scream at people then sure I’ll play along:

    Aamirus is 100% scum because of how she pointed out Renegade without actually trying to get him lynched. Her post to Frinckles reeks of manipulation (the one she just made). Also her tone is really weird. Usually town aamirus is really aggressive and very inquisitive but she more or less only faintly attacked him. Lastly her calling out Renegade could be seen as an attempt to both bus Renegade for toenpints and to pocket me, since I didn’t want to be lynched. Honestly couldn’t have worked better because I really had been getting weird vibes from Renegade over his statistics games and him lightly defending me.

    naz is 100% scum because of how indecisive and very unwilling to point fingers she has been. She’s been trying to push fear lynched on Frinckles for a while now without actually having them gain any momentum at all. Lastly, the way she voted me instead of Renegade is really quite telling IMO.

    SJ is 100% scum because he had a better reason, earlier on, than anyone else, to be voting Renegade. And then accused me of wanting to stifle discussion because I called out Ceko for trying too hard. Btw off note but I would fall that out every game lol. And, someone said that his table earned him town points? It should’ve earned him the EXACT opposite lol. Whenever you see people making tables and trying to be helpful and shit, they’re quite often scum... and then he bussed Renegade for mega town points.

    the way aamirus has been pushing this thing with the nulls not being scum makes me think one of the nulls is her scum partner. Although she would notably be doing that too if she’s town, as she’s been AFK for most of the game.

    there. I don’t want to write a post on noz because I don’t think she’s scum. Like at all lol. I’ve seen noz afk as scum before, and as town too, it isn’t AI for her.
    I pushed renegade over and over again until he gave an actual detailed explanation for why he scumread me. I didn’t want to lynch him after that no...
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  21. ISO #1571

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Naz just has this propensity like me to be afraid of being misled or whatever, you see her voting distorted in every single game I’ve seen them together in... so I really don’t think naz is scum this game. Would scum naz say she has only been mislynched as town and never as scum? Probably not lol. Too cheap.

    aamirus gave me some strange vibes at the start of the day. I’ve only seen her troll about being scum as scum...
    For what it's worth, frinckles asked naz this question:
    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Naz, have you ever been lynched? :P

  22. ISO #1572

  23. ISO #1573

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    I cannot believe how easy this is. Im going to ruin you all as scum and I do not care if the world knows it. Perhaps the rest of you cannot be towny.
    That’s what so annoying about 90% of people’s “reads”. It’s just who they feel put the most effort into the game is the most towny it’s so stupid
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  24. ISO #1574

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Secondpassing you have a way with words that I enjoy. Yes I am literally towing you for rhetoric here. But it is consistent.

    I say all three die and we cheers. I don't care who goes first.
    Meanwhile, I think SP makes the most confusing arguments...

  25. ISO #1575
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    That’s what so annoying about 90% of people’s “reads”. It’s just who they feel put the most effort into the game is the most towny it’s so stupid
    Scum being annoyed at not being able to put in effort

  26. ISO #1576
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Actually sad if that’s the case though lol. So I understand the frustration.

  27. ISO #1577

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    That’s what so annoying about 90% of people’s “reads”. It’s just who they feel put the most effort into the game is the most towny it’s so stupid
    The most effort to what? I could still be scum smoking a victory cigar. I just think this is silly. Effort doesn't mean shit overall. As scum or town. Post counts or mispells don't save you. Effort is effort seen. And scum can make effort.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  28. ISO #1578

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    The most effort to what? I could still be scum smoking a victory cigar. I just think this is silly. Effort doesn't mean shit overall. As scum or town. Post counts or mispells don't save you. Effort is effort seen. And scum can make effort.
    If we are to raise the bar and eliminate those outside of the PoE, wouldn't we lynch those who put in less effort to solve the game?
    Lynching low effort posters makes sense to me, as they cannot be read as townie enough.

  29. ISO #1579

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Scum being annoyed at not being able to put in effort
    I have had plenty of top poster top town read scum games. Same as town. And for both I’ve had low effort games and scum read all game. It feels like a toxic cycle because the only way to be “good” is to put a shit ton of effort in, but then when you do that it just is that much more of a bummer when the game is decided by which of 3 afk people get lynched. It’s why I resisted so hard on caving when people kept pinging me to sign, but then they were panicking about the game being cancelled so I gave in. But once again I regret it. Playing this doesn’t make me feel particularly good no matter which route I go, so I need to stop putting the site before myself.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  30. ISO #1580

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Actually sad if that’s the case though lol. So I understand the frustration.
    I remember having hard-core dissonance when I first played scum. It sucked. But I also can, in blinkskaters's words; sell a used car to a used car dealer
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  31. ISO #1581

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by secondpassing View Post
    Look me in the face and say you didn't know voting Varcron wasn't a hammer

    You voted with 1 minute left in the day
    You voted right after posting a big wall on him saying that you wanted to lynch Frinckles day 2 super fast
    You voted right after I announced putting him at L-1

    YES, you knew 1344,1345, 1358, 1359
    You're the only one scumreading me for EOD day 2, so I'll ignore you for now.

  32. ISO #1582

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by secondpassing View Post
    If we are to raise the bar and eliminate those outside of the PoE, wouldn't we lynch those who put in less effort to solve the game?
    Lynching low effort posters makes sense to me, as they cannot be read as townie enough.
    it doesn't to me. My last champ game lost because we lynched two low effort players and we had a deep wolf. Of course the game is different, but i cannot expect lazy town to play different than lazy scum
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  33. ISO #1583

  34. ISO #1584

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Lmao if you really wanna hear me scream at people then sure I’ll play along:

    Aamirus is 100% scum because of how she pointed out Renegade without actually trying to get him lynched. Her post to Frinckles reeks of manipulation (the one she just made). Also her tone is really weird. Usually town aamirus is really aggressive and very inquisitive but she more or less only faintly attacked him. Lastly her calling out Renegade could be seen as an attempt to both bus Renegade for toenpints and to pocket me, since I didn’t want to be lynched. Honestly couldn’t have worked better because I really had been getting weird vibes from Renegade over his statistics games and him lightly defending me.

    naz is 100% scum because of how indecisive and very unwilling to point fingers she has been. She’s been trying to push fear lynched on Frinckles for a while now without actually having them gain any momentum at all. Lastly, the way she voted me instead of Renegade is really quite telling IMO.

    SJ is 100% scum because he had a better reason, earlier on, than anyone else, to be voting Renegade. And then accused me of wanting to stifle discussion because I called out Ceko for trying too hard. Btw off note but I would fall that out every game lol. And, someone said that his table earned him town points? It should’ve earned him the EXACT opposite lol. Whenever you see people making tables and trying to be helpful and shit, they’re quite often scum... and then he bussed Renegade for mega town points.

    the way aamirus has been pushing this thing with the nulls not being scum makes me think one of the nulls is her scum partner. Although she would notably be doing that too if she’s town, as she’s been AFK for most of the game.

    there. I don’t want to write a post on noz because I don’t think she’s scum. Like at all lol. I’ve seen noz afk as scum before, and as town too, it isn’t AI for her.
    Motivation behind this post is very townie. +townpoints

  35. ISO #1585

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    I’ve noticed this pattern with players on the site. You start out as a noob, by the time you’re in your 3rd or 4th game you’re usually the one putting the most effort in and carrying the game. It lasts for however long and then you slowly get more and more disillusioned. Put less effort in and people will scum read you for not playing up to your meta of high effort. That forces you to quit or burn yourself out going all in which just makes people expect even more the next game.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  36. ISO #1586
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    I think the issue is that people don’t understand the difference between scumhunting and scumpainting. Scumpaint tends to look a lot less like effort than scumhinting does (unless done right). I remember reading something somewhere that the ‘truthfulness’ indicators people use to determine if someone is lying are actually deceptive, possibly because people aren’t interested in the truth. So it’s the same thing, scum are often townier or rather, seem less manipulatife than town. When in fact it’s the exact opposite lol.

  37. ISO #1587

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    And you know what? D1 ends in a 3 v 3 tie with renegade, a scum getting lynched. The scum have a chat and can ping each other. If the scum weren’t already on ganelon then why would they just sit there and let ren get lynched? The only reason to do that is if you get hard bus points on ren. But there’d be no value whatsoever from a scum POV in taking a neutral stance, unless literally both ren and ganelon are scum.

    So really I can see only two scenarios that make sense:
    1) All the scum either voted ganelon or hard bussed ren
    2) Ganelon and ren are both scum

    So I don’t even see how I can be in anybody’s POE.
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Did you even read the post you quoted lol? Also I don’t think there was any more votes. Maybe 1 random old vote somewhere? You’re talking about hypothetical scenarios that literally couldn’t have happened cuz there were was nobody else being voted. I guess before I left Frinckles got put to L-2 as an alternative to Renegade or myself... but IIIIIII was the first person to unvote Frinckles and derail that train (ur slot followed me) so it again makes zero sense for me to do that from a scum perspective.
    Your original post, quoted at the top has some good factual and contextual information, but the analysis I do not agree with. You are imagining a scenario where scum do the most obvious play. Scum often take a neutral stance. In fact, in our last game Varcron and ceko both took stances that would not place them into the spotlight, and they were both scum.

    And as I said, I suspect not everyone scum was on Ganelon, it's more likely they unvoted or put their vote somewhere else to distance. Their expectation was that renegade was going to die. I mean, come on. Renegade's posts did not save himself, and I'm pretty sure his teammates thought the same thing. Heck, he probably told them to scum read him.

    BananaCucho's unvote was because he was asking for a replacement. There was a game with Toadette that I played where the replacing player left their vote on someone, replaced out, and that voted person was hammered. It's a courtesy that a sc2mafia player who also hosts would do. You, on the other hand unvoted for some other reason.

    Tell me why you unvoted. Probably wasn't because you knew you would be replaced soon.

  38. ISO #1588

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I’ve noticed this pattern with players on the site. You start out as a noob, by the time you’re in your 3rd or 4th game you’re usually the one putting the most effort in and carrying the game. It lasts for however long and then you slowly get more and more disillusioned. Put less effort in and people will scum read you for not playing up to your meta of high effort. That forces you to quit or burn yourself out going all in which just makes people expect even more the next game.
    Is that directed at me?
    Because I've been around the block and we have some very good scum here.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  39. ISO #1589
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I’ve noticed this pattern with players on the site. You start out as a noob, by the time you’re in your 3rd or 4th game you’re usually the one putting the most effort in and carrying the game. It lasts for however long and then you slowly get more and more disillusioned. Put less effort in and people will scum read you for not playing up to your meta of high effort. That forces you to quit or burn yourself out going all in which just makes people expect even more the next game.
    I believe I’m not scumrrading you for being inactive though. I did townread noz, who’s AFK.

  40. ISO #1590

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by secondpassing View Post
    Your original post, quoted at the top has some good factual and contextual information, but the analysis I do not agree with. You are imagining a scenario where scum do the most obvious play. Scum often take a neutral stance. In fact, in our last game Varcron and ceko both took stances that would not place them into the spotlight, and they were both scum.

    And as I said, I suspect not everyone scum was on Ganelon, it's more likely they unvoted or put their vote somewhere else to distance. Their expectation was that renegade was going to die. I mean, come on. Renegade's posts did not save himself, and I'm pretty sure his teammates thought the same thing. Heck, he probably told them to scum read him.

    BananaCucho's unvote was because he was asking for a replacement. There was a game with Toadette that I played where the replacing player left their vote on someone, replaced out, and that voted person was hammered. It's a courtesy that a sc2mafia player who also hosts would do. You, on the other hand unvoted for some other reason.

    Tell me why you unvoted. Probably wasn't because you knew you would be replaced soon.
    BECause I FUCKKFN RAGE QUIT JUST LIKE UR SLOT DID. I JUST DIDNT ASK GYRLANDER FOR A REPLACEMWNT AND GHOSTED THE FAME FOR 2 DAYS UNTIL GYR PMED ME ON DISCORD ASKING WHY I WAS NOT LLSTING
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  41. ISO #1591
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    I won’t lie and say that I haven’t read people based on activity before, but I do agree it’s a problem here. The other issue is that people who manipulate others try to hide their manipulative behavior and attempt t seem townier than the people that are town. Town does not do that, and usually isn’t terribly careful with their words because they know they’re town, and they are not willing to put in extra effort to figure out how others are perceiving their posts.

  42. ISO #1592

  43. ISO #1593
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    hmm, that sounds bizarre, we have plenty of reserves, right? Just talk to Gyrlander and ask him to replace you out

  44. ISO #1594
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Nvm just saw your last post

  45. ISO #1595

  46. ISO #1596

  47. ISO #1597

  48. ISO #1598

    Re: S-FM 300: Black Flag Nightless [LADDER] GAME THREAD

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Okay so what? You replacements are both town

    So

    PEOPLE THAT KIND OF RHYME TOGETHER DIE TOGETHER

    NOZ
    NAZ
    Let's do naz, kinda want to wait until tomorrow morning, cause I think my berry picking real life thing is canceled, but eh. Time waits for no one.
    -vote naz

  49. ISO #1599

  50. ISO #1600

 

 

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