I think diva/actress are really overhyped

[Sylvanas]

I remember reading patch logs about how hosts should be careful which options to give that role because of how powerful it is, but I really don't feel like she's any good. As far as I can tell, her entire purpose is to die while copying a role and mislead town into thinking mafia/triad still has an extra remaining member, right? However, even if you actually pull it off, it has very little impact on the game, besides causing a little confusion concerning claims and the remaining roles in play. Town will just kill a mafia one day and then quickly assume a diva/actress must have died earlier when they see no more kills are coming, and just continue playing (if game hasn't already ended). Am I missing something?

In my opinion, the role copying aspect of the role is the interesting part, and should probably developed. She could use charge(s) to learn someone's role and actually use their ability the next day/night, with the faked role on death as a potential extra rather than the main feature.

[rumox]

I'm not sure I follow.

She has the ability to learn someones role with a setting. Making that the primary function of the role wouldn't make sense since we have Administrator and Consigliere who serve that purpose, and her having limited charges of doing so would make her a gimped version of them. Actress flipping a town role does more than thinking Mafia/Triad still have another member alive. It draws into question the role category that the Actress flipped as. If she flipped Sheriff, then all future investigative roles will be met with scrutiny.

[Sylvanas]

I meant she should be able to learn a role and then USE that role, whether she's set to know it immediately or by deducing/taking a chance like a witch would. It would also give certain town roles further reason not to reveal publicly.

I mentioned the confusion her death can cause with remaining setup roles and claims, but I disagree about how impactful it is in the average game. A framer or janitor can confuse town consistently, while actress can only do so if she happens to die at the appropriate time. Ultimately, I think her main feature ends up just being a consolation prize for dying, which you're trying to avoid in the first place.

[DJarJar]

if you think about what rumox said:

Without the role flip mechanic, actress is a slightly weaker version of consig. You still get roles but it's not unlimited number of nights. But thanks to the role flip mechanic, you can often trick the town for AT LEAST 1 day. Since consig rarely gets more checks in before dying than actress does anyway, tbh actress is probably a bit OP at the moment, getting the best of both worlds.

[Sylvanas]

Yeah actually I played her with learning role mode off and was kinda basing myself on that. You're right, if that setting is on, she gets a good mix of invest+confusion which is probably a good tradeoff for consig's infinite uses and gf replacement. But without it it felt like she was a benchwarmer that just hopes she'll provoke something useful if she dies.

I guess seeing a role called actress/diva that copies roles gave me the impression she'd be able to copy the actions of other roles. I feel like it's kind of a missed opportunity not to have something like that in the game.

[Frinckles]

Yeah actually I played her with learning role mode off and was kinda basing myself on that. You're right, if that setting is on, she gets a good mix of invest+confusion which is probably a good tradeoff for consig's infinite uses and gf replacement. But without it it felt like she was a benchwarmer that just hopes she'll provoke something useful if she dies.

I guess seeing a role called actress/diva that copies roles gave me the impression she'd be able to copy the actions of other roles. I feel like it's kind of a missed opportunity not to have something like that in the game.

That kind of role is definitely possible, but I don't have any plans for a mafia jack of all trades at the moment.

Actress is a tricky role to play effectively with the flip ability. But big thing about it I've heard is that is actually makes the graveyard not 100% real. Hopefully that spurs some critical thinking.

[Elixir]

Really depends on how it ends up landing. Could make the copy last the following night, not the night of copy etc etc.

Theres a bunch of levers we can fiddle with but the main point is the actress is meant to try and sorta set up the day before by seeming pretty scummy and then doing the copy to mess with the graveyard list so people who count the roles left and try to figure it out that way end up miscounting, and potentially mislynching because they thing theres no Town Investigative slots left for example.

The Actress shouldn't be trying to die n1 or n2.

If we change it to the copy stays to the following night it'd also allow the Actress to suicide if the situation demands it to force a copy show. - It was originally going to be like that but we changed it to the night they do the copy incase they get killed same night.

[Elixir]

A little more perspective, we dont want to create a role that just out performs consig. I'm trying to not just introduce power creep as far as roles are concerned - like I dont want armorsmith to just replace doctor in every setup -- thats why the 1 night between armors exists, we took out handing armor to self and the poisoner needs doctors around or it cant be stopped. Similarly, if Actress just becomes a exact role on always 4 charge super consig in the meta we'll change it.