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Thread: Gaslighting

  1. #1

    Gaslighting

    Gaslighting is a behavior often encountered in FM. This thread is here for people to discuss both the moral and strategic aspects of the topic.

    First, to keep things clear : personally attacking a player, telling them they are "simply too dumb to play this game", etc. is NOT allowed on this site (and on most other sites). That being said, gaslighting does not stop there.

    It is quite common to see townies, and more rarely, scums, question their own choices because of their own doubt; it is also common to see people (often the target of the victim's suspicions) try to make others doubt of their own reasoning without directly entering an argument with them. My question is : do you think that gaslighting is a valid strategy, both efficiency-wise and moral-wise (excluding the rule-breaking version of it)?
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I want to drink your blood, vomit it out, and then spell out the words "FAKE BITCH" with it

  2. #2

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Gaslighting is a behavior often encountered in FM. This thread is here for people to discuss both the moral and strategic aspects of the topic.

    First, to keep things clear : personally attacking a player, telling them they are "simply too dumb to play this game", etc. is NOT allowed on this site (and on most other sites). That being said, gaslighting does not stop there.

    It is quite common to see townies, and more rarely, scums, question their own choices because of their own doubt; it is also common to see people (often the target of the victim's suspicions) try to make others doubt of their own reasoning without directly entering an argument with them. My question is : do you think that gaslighting is a valid strategy, both efficiency-wise and moral-wise (excluding the rule-breaking version of it)?
    I personally love this strategy, it's my #1 reason why I do fairly well on the mod and also here at times.

    Think about it this way: You create doubt in a player who you think is scum as town, they are more likely to fumble and help the town's cause instead of their own, via exposing themselves as scum etc. It's even more effective on the scum side, because the more doubt you can plant in the town, the less likely you or your scummies will be found.


    EDIT: I realize my post is a bit clunky, but I hope you get the point. Don't cross the line, and you're fine in all aspects, otherwise just don't do it.

    EDIT #2: You don't need to cause a massive argument to put doubt in, just the phrase here and there that makes someone think "Hmm.... Am I right?"
    Last edited by Varcron; March 26th, 2020 at 12:04 PM.

  3. #3

    Re: Gaslighting

    I don't play forum mafia, just the battle.net version but I wanted to put my two cents in since I've had similar experiences.

    In the battle.net version, there's something called "witch-hunting," which is when someone is targeted because of their in-game nickname (you can choose a unique nickname when you're in a Sc2Mafia game). The targeted person could be a troll, toxic, a moderator, or just someone using an HTML colored name (a special privilege awarded to players after they earn a certain number of points).

    Mods recently decided to allow witch-hunting since players can just change their in-game nickname, which arguably allows for more toxic behavior. In general, "gaslighting" is extremely common between battle.net players. Every other lobby I'm in has people from a previous match arguing with each other or hosts kicking players for personal reasons. It's a shitshow. And guess what? I don't care, and I doubt most other battle.net players care since they're still playing. Trash talk is just a part of battle.net mafia, and I'm super grateful to have found a game that allows it.

    If there's a personal vendetta between two players, I'd want them to settle it between themselves. If someone is basically spamming "I want THIS player to die," you can:

    1. Ignore it if the gaslighter isn't providing adequate evidence for his claim.
    2. Punish the gaslighter if he's working against his objective by targeting someone. For example, a doctor who pretends to be sheriff and claims the gaslightee is mafia just to get a lynch on the person he hates. However, this can be difficult to determine and comes down to opinion---which I believe should NOT influence a mod's decision---since part of the strategy in Mafia is pretending to be a role that you aren't.

    There's also the issue of figuring out if the gaslighter is being malicious or a troll. I think the latter should be allowed, since I find trolls hilarious ;). Also, if town is stupid enough to lynch someone based off of a gaslighter making claims from day 1, that should be the town's problem. Gaslighters should be treated as executioners, jesters, potential evils trying to confuse town, or towns trying to fake jester so they don't get shot by mafia (since mafia shooting jester is basically a wasted night for mafia)---not as trolls who shouldn't play the game.

    For example, I saw Efekann gaslighting Distorted in the Furry Potter game that just ended. Efekann claimed like five roles in the first day to "convince" town that Distorted is "scum." Obviously, Efekann wasn't being serious and as Varcron said, putting all that attention on Distorted could make him fumble or at least pressure him to vote with town if he IS scum.

    I do realize forum mafia is more heavily moderated than battle.net mafia and that gaslightees can't hide their username on here. However, I believe moderators should try to regulate gameplay, not behavior. Regulating behavior requires using your opinion on what's right and wrong. What you consider as unacceptable behavior could be totally fine with another mod. No offense to you Marshmallow, but if there's one thing I hate, it's a site with mods who are inconsistent with punishments---and I would hate for Sc2Maf to become one of those sites.

    Final note, if someone tells me to fuck off or that I'm trash in a game, I tell that person to fuck off like a real man or hit them with the "no u UwU" Uno reverse card. I hate being flamed, but I also like to flame others. I wouldn't want a mod to get in the middle of that since I believe I should handle the repercussions of toxicity myself.
    Last edited by theoneceko; March 26th, 2020 at 02:16 PM.

  4. #4

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko View Post
    I don't play forum mafia, just the battle.net version but I wanted to put my two cents in since I've had similar experiences.

    In the battle.net version, there's something called "witch-hunting," which is when someone is targeted because of their in-game nickname (you can choose a unique nickname when you're in a Sc2Mafia game). The targeted person could be a known troll, toxic, a moderator, or just someone using an HTML colored name (a special privilege awarded after earning a certain number of points).

    Mods recently decided to allow witch-hunting since players can just change their in-game nickname, which you could argue allows for more toxic behavior. In general, there already is a ton of "gaslighting" between battle.net players. Every other lobby I'm in has people from a previous match arguing with each other or hosts kicking players for personal reasons. It's a shitshow. And guess what? I don't care, and I doubt most other battle.net players care since they're still playing. Trash talk is just a part of battle.net mafia, and I'm super grateful to have found a game that allows it.

    If there's a personal vendetta between two players, I'd want them to settle it between themselves. If someone is basically spamming "I want THIS player to die," you can:

    1. Ignore it if the gaslighter isn't providing evidence for his claim.
    2. Punish the gaslighter if he's working against his objective by targeting someone. For example, a doctor who pretends to be sheriff and claims the gaslightee is mafia just to get a lynch on the person he hates.

    There's also the issue of figuring how serious the gaslighter is being, if someone's trolling I also think that should be allowed. That's just my personal preference though. Also, if town is stupid enough to lynch someone based off of a gaslighter making claims from day 1, that should be the town's problem. Gaslighters should be treated as executioners, jesters, potential evils trying to confuse town, or towns trying to fake jester so they don't get shot by mafia (since mafia shooting jester is basically a wasted night for mafia)---not as trolls who shouldn't play the game.

    #MakeMafiaToxicAgain
    Oh, I don't mean it like that at all, that's just griefing at that point.

    I mean in the game, if you say something to instill doubt in someone, that is considered gaslighting as well, what you're going on is fully flaming/griefing.

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by theoneceko
    For example, I saw Efekann gaslighting Distorted in the Furry Potter game that just ended. Efekann claimed like five roles in the first day to "convince" town that Distorted is "scum." Obviously, Efekann wasn't being serious and as Varcron said, putting all that attention on Distorted could make him fumble or at least pressure him to vote with town if he IS scum.
    This is the sort of gaslighting that I think is okay, as much as I believe it should be more subtle than just that

  7. #7

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    I personally love this strategy, it's my #1 reason why I do fairly well on the mod and also here at times.

    Think about it this way: You create doubt in a player who you think is scum as town, they are more likely to fumble and help the town's cause instead of their own, via exposing themselves as scum etc. It's even more effective on the scum side, because the more doubt you can plant in the town, the less likely you or your scummies will be found.


    EDIT: I realize my post is a bit clunky, but I hope you get the point. Don't cross the line, and you're fine in all aspects, otherwise just don't do it.

    EDIT #2: You don't need to cause a massive argument to put doubt in, just the phrase here and there that makes someone think "Hmm.... Am I right?"
    I definetly agree that this is the "basic gaslighting" that almost everyone uses. Do you think that it can be pushed farther? Also, how do you gaslight scumreads as town, exactly? Isn't it useless unless the scum is pushing you?
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I want to drink your blood, vomit it out, and then spell out the words "FAKE BITCH" with it

  8. #8

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    Oh, I don't mean it like that at all, that's just griefing at that point.

    I mean in the game, if you say something to instill doubt in someone, that is considered gaslighting as well, what you're going on is fully flaming/griefing.
    Exactly. Just saying "YOU'RE A FUCKING MORON, I HOPE YOU DIE IRL" isn't "proper" gaslighting, it's a personal insult, and that's not allowed in FM. That's exactly what I was excluding in the second line of the original post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    This is the sort of gaslighting that I think is okay, as much as I believe it should be more subtle than just that
    Indeed, it's okay. Something interesting you are bringing up, though, is that if the gaslighting lacks subtility or if the player who's gaslighting lacks ethos, the attempt will most likely fail. It was Efekann's case in Furry Potter.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I want to drink your blood, vomit it out, and then spell out the words "FAKE BITCH" with it

  9. #9

    Re: Gaslighting

    As people play this game, they accumulate lots of baggage, like insecurities and weaknesses. Many of those insecurities are very easy to exploit in a way that seems natural.

    One obvious example: if a player is just generally insecure and seems to look up to you, then you can really damage their reads by saying something like "I can't believe we're 24 hours into day 1 and all you've just got is some superficial read on a player obviously playing to their day 1 town meta. Pull your head out of your ass and take this game seriously ffs. You told me you wanted to get better." - this can be easily played off as a heated moment, depending on your persona.

    You see some experienced players doing it a LOT. Not just neccesarily the above, but generally trying to get in people's head and figure out what their weaknesses are. But it's also easy to misinterpret one person's tactless remark as some deliberate, calculated attack on your psyche. If you're suspicious it's happening, try to find examples of your suspect doing it to others as opposed to you, because you can probably make a much more objective assessment of other's weaknesses.

    I think the morality of it is very case-by-case, but you should generally have faith in people to overcome their problems. I've personally found it to be very beneficial to my self-awareness to have those sorts of plays used on me. However, just remember the game is supposed to be fun and you're not trying to scar people lmao.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  10. #10

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    As people play this game, they accumulate lots of baggage, like insecurities and weaknesses. Many of those insecurities are very easy to exploit in a way that seems natural.

    One obvious example: if a player is just generally insecure and seems to look up to you, then you can really damage their reads by saying something like "I can't believe we're 24 hours into day 1 and all you've just got is some superficial read on a player obviously playing to their day 1 town meta. Pull your head out of your ass and take this game seriously ffs. You told me you wanted to get better." - this can be easily played off as a heated moment, depending on your persona.

    You see some experienced players doing it a LOT. Not just neccesarily the above, but generally trying to get in people's head and figure out what their weaknesses are. But it's also easy to misinterpret one person's tactless remark as some deliberate, calculated attack on your psyche. If you're suspicious it's happening, try to find examples of your suspect doing it to others as opposed to you, because you can probably make a much more objective assessment of other's weaknesses.

    I think the morality of it is very case-by-case, but you should generally have faith in people to overcome their problems. I've personally found it to be very beneficial to my self-awareness to have those sorts of plays used on me. However, just remember the game is supposed to be fun and you're not trying to scar people lmao.
    I should also mention I've seen a lot of plays that were clearly just an outburst retroactively justified with nonsense reasoning. Don't be a dipshit. MM appears to be taking great caution to make that distinction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  11. #11

  12. #12

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    This could be a good thread to point fingers at everyone including the person above me, but I think gaslighting is a good tool that generally makes people look influential in games.
    I agree, it is a reason why some of the high point players on the mod are able to influence the game in conversation, because they use stuff like this. This could work in FM as well, as I said previously, it would just take a bit more effort in it to be subtle.

  13. #13

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    This could be a good thread to point fingers at everyone including the person above me, but I think gaslighting is a good tool that generally makes people look influential in games.
    Nope, it couldn't be a good thread to point fingers at everyone lol, that's not the point. Gaslighting, when done "to have fun and to win the game, not to scar people" as Yzb said, is good IMO (I like that definition).
    You think that by making others look bad, you make yourself look better? That is... debatable. It has to be really subtle, else the opposite happens : people start thinking you're being a scum mastermind trying to control everyone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    I agree, it is a reason why some of the high point players on the mod are able to influence the game in conversation, because they use stuff like this. This could work in FM as well, as I said previously, it would just take a bit more effort in it to be subtle.
    I believe gaslighting appears much more in FM than on the mod, though. On the mod, it's mostly flaming that people sometimes actually believe to be "right" and follow, sadly. Theoneceko gave examples of it above (not saying he's guilty of it himself, but what he put in his post is a good picture of the general way to discredit there).
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I want to drink your blood, vomit it out, and then spell out the words "FAKE BITCH" with it

  14. #14

  15. #15

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    I believe gaslighting appears much more in FM than on the mod, though. On the mod, it's mostly flaming that people sometimes actually believe to be "right" and follow, sadly. Theoneceko gave examples of it above (not saying he's guilty of it himself, but what he put in his post is a good picture of the general way to discredit there).
    L U L I FLAME UWU. OWOFLAMESUWUFLAEMS. IM NOT ABOVE FLAMING IM A FUCKIN DEGENERATE!!!!

  16. #16

    Re: Gaslighting

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    As people play this game, they accumulate lots of baggage, like insecurities and weaknesses. Many of those insecurities are very easy to exploit in a way that seems natural.

    One obvious example: if a player is just generally insecure and seems to look up to you, then you can really damage their reads by saying something like "I can't believe we're 24 hours into day 1 and all you've just got is some superficial read on a player obviously playing to their day 1 town meta. Pull your head out of your ass and take this game seriously ffs. You told me you wanted to get better." - this can be easily played off as a heated moment, depending on your persona.

    You see some experienced players doing it a LOT. Not just neccesarily the above, but generally trying to get in people's head and figure out what their weaknesses are. But it's also easy to misinterpret one person's tactless remark as some deliberate, calculated attack on your psyche. If you're suspicious it's happening, try to find examples of your suspect doing it to others as opposed to you, because you can probably make a much more objective assessment of other's weaknesses.

    I think the morality of it is very case-by-case, but you should generally have faith in people to overcome their problems. I've personally found it to be very beneficial to my self-awareness to have those sorts of plays used on me. However, just remember the game is supposed to be fun and you're not trying to scar people lmao.
    I actually really like when you said "generally have faith in people to overcome their problems." makes me UWU.

    No seriously, when people flame me in the mod I learn to get used to it and learn from my stupid mistakes. Also, when people are flaming me even though they're the ones who fucked up (they just want some1 to dump their salt on) I'm learnING to deal.

    I've only seen one report on "flaming"/cyberbullying. Not to discredit cyberbullying, in some cases it maeks ppl commit non-living UWU. But in a video game if ur raging, like who honestly gives a fuck.
    UWUUWJU!
    I havb 900IQ

  17. #17

    Re: Gaslighting

    @theoneceko We're not talking about the same world. Forum mafia and the mod are two different mindsets for a similar game principle. I play the mod and enjoy its atmosphere (toxicity is never really fun though), but toxicity is definetly not welcome in FM, and can and will be met with punishments. Note that I'm not saying that being toxic is alright on the mod, but that the definition of punishable toxicity is larger in FM.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I want to drink your blood, vomit it out, and then spell out the words "FAKE BITCH" with it

 

 

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