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Thread: Chemist

  1. #1

    Chemist

    Chemist (Mafia/Triad Deception) (haven't thought of a separate name for each faction) "A former chemistry professor who synthesizes extremely potent deliriants for the Mafia/Triad."

    Every night, the Chemist can choose a target. At the end of the night, regardless of whether that target was actually attacked or not, they will get a notification that they were in fact attacked but were also saved by the help of a doctor. This notification is indistinguishable from the notification that would have occurred if that target was actually attacked and then healed.

    If the Chemist chooses a target who is jailed, they will still receive the sequence as opposed to the "you were going to be attacked but were jailed" which would give away the existence of a Chemist. The jailor would not be notified that the jailee suffered an episode or were attacked, since they weren't actually attacked.

    If the Chemist chooses a target who is protected by a Doctor, the Doctor will know that their target was drugged by a highly potent deliriant and suffered a psychotic episode.

    If the Chemist chooses a target who was also converted by the Cult, and doctor is set to prevent conversion, then cult would know of the existence of a Chemist.

    If the Chemist chooses a target protected by BG, and BG knows they were protecting said target, then BG knows that a Chemist exists.

    Options:

    1: Limited to 1 druggings (default OFF)
    2: Limited to 2 druggings (default ON)
    3: Limited to 3 druggings (default OFF)

    If all are unchecked, then has unlimited druggings

    4: Immune to detection (default OFF)
    If off, would allow Chemist to "prove" themselves as a doctor to town from detectives, but be found out by lookouts.

    5: 1 day between druggings (default OFF)

    6 - for doctor not Chemist - Doctor knows if target was drugged (default ON)

    Points of contention:

    Should chemist appear to have visited their target, or always stay at home? (they spiked their drink/food/medicine/water supply before hand which target uses at night or takes affect at night, but did not go to their house at night)

    Should drugging fail if target was jailed?
    Last edited by Space Milk; March 22nd, 2020 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: Chemist

    Another possibility that could be done with this role is that when a target is drugged and ALSO has a real doctor on them, the doctor ALSO thinks his target was attacked and "heals" him, not knowing that he was just suffering a very severe case of delirium. Thus only jailors and bodyguards could reliably ascertain the existence of the Chemist, while doctors unknowingly corroborate the claims.

  3. #3

    Re: Chemist

    What exactly would these druggings do other than confuse who was attacked and who wasn't? I see some really useful stuff here for Mafia or Triad to play off a doc claim, but no utility other than that potentially. We also have to keep in mind that spy will be a direct counter to this role, which limits the use of it in over 50% of games.

    EDIT: I suggest that you make this role undetectable by spies, or if it is detectable make it appear as the mafia or triad kill, and not a visitation.

  4. #4

    Re: Chemist

    I agree that it should be undetectable by spies. This role is functionally useless if Night Sequence is enabled as opposed to Death Descriptions or the other option.

    Personally, I have always preferred Death Descriptions and don't get complaints from players. Night Sequence is favored because "it's cool" but affects balance.

    With Death Descriptions, this allows Mafia to fake an additional killer role, or to fake the existence of a SK or MM. It also affects Town's perception of what roles are occupying the Random or Protection/Killing slots, which could potentially leading town to doubt themselves or even lynch one of their own. Moreover, it paves way for a Maf member to "confirm" themselves. Ultimately these all serve as distractions to buy time for Maf.
    Last edited by Space Milk; March 22nd, 2020 at 02:23 PM.

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Chemist

    I don't play forum mafia, so I was confused initially by your reference to drug dealer. That being said, whether it already exists or not in a game is not relevant to whether it SHOULD exist or not in THIS game. Coroner is a role that is completely useless in setups outside of Clue, which is unpopular to begin with, yet it exists. I don't think the inability of a role to work in certain setups justifies exclusion, since there are already roles currently implemented whose utility is soft or hard-limited by setup settings.

  7. #7

    Re: Chemist

    Coroner's not useless. It's also extremely functional in other setups.

    There's a difference to a role flat out not working in a setup, and it having limited utility. In order for this role to start to even be considered, someone is going to have to make sure it works in all setups.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  8. #8

    Re: Chemist

    How so? If you mean the ability to hard counter janitors and disguisers, that's a hit and miss. Janitors and disguisers are usually low chance in current meta, and coroner is also low chance or more commonly flat out excluded in the current meta in favor of investigators sheriffs detective and lookouts. Coroner as a hard counter to janitor and disguiser is not so interesting either.

    If we're going by strict utility even if limited, then technically a Chemist still has it even in night sequence, such as in 9 2 2 2 setups. A night-immune dragon head may want to play it safe and not lie about being healed when attacked by the Godfather or the serial killer, so having a Chemist and making town believe someone else was attacked and healed would be beneficial - especially when a mayor gets roles and figures out the claimed doctors never healed that person, leading to town lynching one of their own. This is entirely possible with night sequence. If the game calculates that one of the attacks did not result in a death before night sequence is played, then it can have the target seem like they were attacked while the sequence with no deaths plays. If no attacks resulted in a death, then it is left up to RNG. A smart and observant player will realize by paying attention to the graveyard that they were drugged.
    Last edited by Space Milk; March 23rd, 2020 at 11:20 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Chemist

    Coroner has the ability to confirm the existence of numerous roles in the game and all the visits on a dead players slot. Using coroner under the presumption of it just being an anti janitor clean severely gimps the roles potential. I think its sleeper OP, maybe even broken but most players dont realise its potential so it sits in obscurity.

  10. #10

    Re: Chemist

    Quote Originally Posted by rumox View Post
    Coroner has the ability to confirm the existence of numerous roles in the game and all the visits on a dead players slot. Using coroner under the presumption of it just being an anti janitor clean severely gimps the roles potential. I think its sleeper OP, maybe even broken but most players dont realise its potential so it sits in obscurity.
    To add on to this, coroner is also self confirmable in a way with how it is basically a LO for the dead, detective for the dead, and anti janitor. If you send that LW to a half experienced town gov, he will automatically confirm you since you gave him a paragraph of leads or otherwise unknown info if they didn't leave a LW

  11. #11

    Re: Chemist

    Assuming this is played with Death Descriptions,

    This role nerfs Doctor which is already a weak role compared to Bodyguard. With this role's existence, you are weakening the doc's only way to self confirm which is by successfully healing a target.

    If played with Night Sequence, this role can only function if everyone hears the attack sound. The role name should be Director to fit the theme but I just can't suspend the disbelief. You are a person that can somehow convince everyone that someone got attacked and got healed and the victim also felt it genuinely real. But the victim can also check if he actually got any wounds, physically verifying the attack to be imaginary and leading to interpreting it as just a bad dream.

    I can imagine the Director firing his thompson at the night sky to fake the attack sound. It's just a ridiculously implausible role to conclude.

  12. #12

    Re: Chemist

    I think the idea behind this role is quite interesting. However, as BoomBoom pointed out, it can make doctors even weaker. More importantly, the night sequence would make this role almost useless for the Maf/Triad and may even lower the Maf/Triad's chances of winning (i.e. A lookout or detective sees who the Chemist visited, assuming that the Chemist actually does visit his targets' houses). Any town with a brain would realize instantly if Maf/Triad had a Chemist.

    ((Hey, I basically just copied what BoomBoom said yeah? MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA))

    But yeah bottom line is, cool idea but not feasible.

 

 

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