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  1. #21

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Well, I'd be willing to try it as a prototype or experimental setup.
    The idea of experimental setups is not to implement setups that follow the spirit of standard setups, but that are deemed unbalanced by staff. That would be useless. The goal is to allow new kinds of setups to be created and played, even though they may not be as balanced as the standard ones. This setup does not seem to meet the requirements for any form of approval at the moment, and if it remains in the same spirit, it will never really be an experimental setup.

    If you would like to see the setup approved normally, it would be necessary to discuss the balance issue that is a major concern here. Do you disagree that giving only one mislynch to the Town in a 10 players setup is generally scum-favored?
    Last edited by Marshmallow Marshall; March 6th, 2020 at 08:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  2. #22

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Having one confirmed town is very strong in the long run, but doesn't solve games instantly or prevent mislynches (far from completely, at least). This game isn't designed to last very long. Proof is to be seen in Your Everyday Average Game, in which the "Host" almighty role with power to kill lost, or in Turnabout Mafia, in which the Judge, a confirmed town player without a standard vote, was completely unable to change the tides of the game, despite being experienced and charismatic.

    I do agree that this is what the scums have to do. It just seems too easy for them in the current state of the setup.
    You misunderstood me. Justice's check can potentially create a towncore of 3 players on day 1. If not, there will be a pseudo-CC war on day 1. If he manages to get another check, he can repeat the exact same process. When combined with scumhunting, it's more powerful than an ordinary sheriff.

    Also, you're miscalculating here. I assure you adding a citizen will NOT give town an extra mislynch. You'd need to add two.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blinkstorteddd02 View Post
    naz, he's claiming to have been at your house last night and infected you. I know u were drunk but PLEASE try as hard as you can to remember... That burning you felt the next morning when you went pee was from me, not him.

  3. #23

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by yzb25 View Post
    You misunderstood me. Justice's check can potentially create a towncore of 3 players on day 1. If not, there will be a pseudo-CC war on day 1. If he manages to get another check, he can repeat the exact same process. When combined with scumhunting, it's more powerful than an ordinary sheriff.

    Also, you're miscalculating here. I assure you adding a citizen will NOT give town an extra mislynch. You'd need to add two.
    That is half-true, but the process isn't repeatable if Nurse has to remain on the claimed Justice, roleblocking him (which is the goal of the role, a nice WIFOM interaction). I say "half-true" because 100 % confirming people isn't instantly possible : both checked players could be Mafia.

    ~~

    Plus, the Heartbreaker's kill actually makes it go back to one allowed mislynch if it's well used. This isn't a mistake; the Heartbreaker won't necessarily want to love someone, since it kinda reveals him to the loved one. That either gives one more mislynch to the Town, or makes it so that the Nurse heals are actually buying another mislynch for the town if the heals are on point.
    You believe that the setup is well balanced as of now, am I mistaken? What makes the small amount of mislynches possible for town not imbalanced in your opinion? Solely the power roles?

    Also, it'd be good to clarify if the Oracle reveals Actress or only the role the Actress is faking (or both).
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  4. #24

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    That is half-true, but the process isn't repeatable if Nurse has to remain on the claimed Justice, roleblocking him (which is the goal of the role, a nice WIFOM interaction). I say "half-true" because 100 % confirming people isn't instantly possible : both checked players could be Mafia.

    ~~

    Plus, the Heartbreaker's kill actually makes it go back to one allowed mislynch if it's well used. This isn't a mistake; the Heartbreaker won't necessarily want to love someone, since it kinda reveals him to the loved one. That either gives one more mislynch to the Town, or makes it so that the Nurse heals are actually buying another mislynch for the town if the heals are on point.
    You believe that the setup is well balanced as of now, am I mistaken? What makes the small amount of mislynches possible for town not imbalanced in your opinion? Solely the power roles?

    Also, it'd be good to clarify if the Oracle reveals Actress or only the role the Actress is faking (or both).
    Oracle will reveal the role the Actress is acting as. That's why I used the term Psuedo-Confirmed earlier. In this way, the Oracle can be anti-town in uncommon situations.

    But I agree with yzb. If you roll Citizen in this game and a Justice says you and someone else have the same alignment you're confirmed town to eachother. That's a powerful dynamic instantly akin to Masons almost.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  5. #25

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Oracle will reveal the role the Actress is acting as. That's why I used the term Psuedo-Confirmed earlier. In this way, the Oracle can be anti-town in uncommon situations.

    But I agree with yzb. If you roll Citizen in this game and a Justice says you and someone else have the same alignment you're confirmed town to eachother. That's a powerful dynamic instantly akin to Masons almost.
    Alright. I agree with the mechanic here; however, it makes the town weaker, and makes the addition of a Citizen even more advisable.

    Right. But if you were putting 3 Masons in this game instead of a Justice, I would say that the game is too swingy and not really balanced, because the one mislynch issue is still here. One mislynch possibility in a game with one united Mafia faction with a factional nightkill + heartbreak kill + deception on flips (Actress) + night start is not balanced, even if Town has some good power roles. They can die. The Nurse can save them, but also make them useless ability-wise. The Justice can even be killed N1, which would almost result in an instant loss for the Town.
    Take Undercover as an example. The Mafia are two and they have only a night chat, no additional abilities, not even a kill. They have to work with the Serial Killer to win (usually). They can even get killed by the SK. And in the end, they still won (and I believe that the Mafia won the first iteration I played in, too).
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  6. #26

  7. #27

  8. #28

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    You can't compare two completely different games like that imo. Plus the mafia team in undercover was super duper strong. I can see this setup going either way, town domination or scum domination depending on how its played
    Indeed, but general balance principles still apply. That's the beauty of principles. Plus, it's an example

    Nobody has really addressed the main point, though. Does someone actually disagree that a setup of this size should have more than one mislynch possibility in quite normal circumstances? If so, why, and do you have examples of well balanced, non-experimental games that have this pattern?
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  9. #29

  10. #30

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Indeed, but general balance principles still apply. That's the beauty of principles. Plus, it's an example

    Nobody has really addressed the main point, though. Does someone actually disagree that a setup of this size should have more than one mislynch possibility in quite normal circumstances? If so, why, and do you have examples of well balanced, non-experimental games that have this pattern?
    I think a setup where all town power roles get to act on the first night can be justified by a N0 kill. The difficulty level placed on the town is proportional to how the Mafia plays, that's why it's fun. This isn't an impossible setup for town to win and I feel that adding a citizen would dilute the setup in favor of town.

    @Kenny yeah, I get dying night one is annoying but there is plenty of wifom in who dies night one. I also think it gets the game rolling much faster. To be honest, I've been dreading the longevity of shitposting day ones.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  11. #31

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Or somewhere smack dab in the middle
    This is not meant to be easy by any means, but from what I've seen - it is balanced. It starts out fast paced and can end quickly for either team if they misstep. That's the beauty of it. But town has ways of making the process of elimination easier.

    If you're a Nurse and you successfully lynched a Mafia ccing Justice do you heal the real Justice and roleblock then or not? Do you know if Mafia knows your role via Actress or Paparazzi? Etc.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  12. #32

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Now, when I speak about how I've seen this setup played, it's in the scope of EpicMafia. This is a web-based Mafia platform and people there are knowledgeable about the same concepts. I created this setup to be 'comped' or competitive for thier ladder essentially. It's still undergoing evaluation but it's currently very close to 50/50 favoring town.

    I dont know how exactly transitioning to an FM setting will make the setup play out. Who benefits from more discussion generally?

    For what it's worth, Silent Night was built off a setup I enjoyed on EM (mixed in with La Cosa Nostra's styling.) And the town kind of got rolled. There were significant mistakes made by town however.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  13. #33

  14. #34

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    I think a setup where all town power roles get to act on the first night can be justified by a N0 kill. The difficulty level placed on the town is proportional to how the Mafia plays, that's why it's fun. This isn't an impossible setup for town to win and I feel that adding a citizen would dilute the setup in favor of town.

    @Kenny yeah, I get dying night one is annoying but there is plenty of wifom in who dies night one. I also think it gets the game rolling much faster. To be honest, I've been dreading the longevity of shitposting day ones.
    You're still not addressing the main point. It has one mislynch possibility.

    The difficulty level for Town is always proportional to how the Mafia plays when it's Town vs Mafia, and adding a citizen always "dilutes" the setup in favor of town; it's often needed to balance things out. Honestly, none of the sentences in your post hold any weight about the setup.

    As for the N1 kill, I agree with Kenny, but it'd be breaking the setup's spirit a bit. The only WIFOM about N1 kill is the player's meta, and that's NOT fun, nor is it informative. Actually, I propose this alternative to adding a Citizen, since you really seem to hate the idea : make N1 a no-kill night instead. It also keeps the spirit of the setup, but removes the annoyance of dying for no reason related to the game.

    Web-based Mafia isn't Forum Mafia. If comparing two different setups of a similar kind that were played in the exact same style of Mafia, comparing two different styles of Mafia is completely invalid. A 9-3-3 from the mod is horribly imbalanced for the FM world, for example.

    Also, no offense, but just saying that the setup is balanced and not addressing the main point (the one mislynch possibility) isn't productive. Please address the concern specifically.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  15. #35

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    You're still not addressing the main point. It has one mislynch possibility.

    The difficulty level for Town is always proportional to how the Mafia plays when it's Town vs Mafia, and adding a citizen always "dilutes" the setup in favor of town; it's often needed to balance things out. Honestly, none of the sentences in your post hold any weight about the setup.

    As for the N1 kill, I agree with Kenny, but it'd be breaking the setup's spirit a bit. The only WIFOM about N1 kill is the player's meta, and that's NOT fun, nor is it informative. Actually, I propose this alternative to adding a Citizen, since you really seem to hate the idea : make N1 a no-kill night instead. It also keeps the spirit of the setup, but removes the annoyance of dying for no reason related to the game.

    Web-based Mafia isn't Forum Mafia. If comparing two different setups of a similar kind that were played in the exact same style of Mafia, comparing two different styles of Mafia is completely invalid. A 9-3-3 from the mod is horribly imbalanced for the FM world, for example.

    Also, no offense, but just saying that the setup is balanced and not addressing the main point (the one mislynch possibility) isn't productive. Please address the concern specifically.
    I suppose N0 being a no-kill night would be interesting. While still allowing ability use right?
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  16. #36

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    I suppose N0 being a no-kill night would be interesting. While still allowing ability use right?
    Correct. That would be balanced, because the TPRs would be sure to get some results to work with. It also removes the annoyance of dying without having ever posted, and it prevents town from being doomed in case Mafia gets lucky and kills Justice N1.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  17. #37

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Correct. That would be balanced, because the TPRs would be sure to get some results to work with. It also removes the annoyance of dying without having ever posted, and it prevents town from being doomed in case Mafia gets lucky and kills Justice N1.
    Well, I've gone ahead and changed it.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  18. #38

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Alright, the setup seems good balance-wise. A few last technicalities :

    - You need to add win conditions.

    - The setup could use rules (if you don't want anything that goes out of the very ordinary rules, you can simply link the FM Rules (http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...um-Mafia-Rules).
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  19. #39

  20. #40

    Re: S-FM Third Line Butterfly (10P)

    Quote Originally Posted by powerofdeath View Post
    I think this setup is horribly unbalanced in epicmafia though.
    It's been pretty balanced all around. Only issue is when Justice get N1'd but Orc can still lead. What problems did you have with it?
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

 

 

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