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  1. #1

    Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Now I know what you're thinking, Elixir - You hated the spy and how much it destroyed the meta why are you even considering this option?

    Spy was garbage because it ended up being a self confirmable town and most of the town are the ones using pms anyway. Spy is still a bad role as it disincentives strategic play by evils (and I think the upcoming Party Host does a way better job being an offset counter to that as it is limited in scope.)

    Now enter the current meta which is HeLlO Im MaYoR pM mE pLs which is starting to get equally as swingy having the entire game decided by one person without real interaction. Giving the PM reading ability to consig gives the evils a threat in that they might get an entire role list given to them allowing them to plan their hitlist accordingly (of course they could be reading lies). After the investigator rework, unless exact role is turned on the consig isnt exactly a powerhouse of a role right now and doesnt get a lot of meaningful information. Rather than make another role like snitch I'd rather power up the roles that currently aren't super strong (again, unless you activate the turbo consig which is probably busted).

    I might be missing something but if consig is the only role that can read them all they're not exactly going to admit to it - and because spies can't do it the town wont turbo lynch a spy thinking they're a consig.

    Just a shower thought idea - how do we feel about it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  2. #2

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    +support

    this passive can also work for blackmailer.

    Question is, are names and numbers anonymous or not? When I suggested something similar I mentioned replacing any numbers in the PMs with # and making the two parties of the PM also anonymous to the mafia so that there's some deduction skill remaining to be used while playing whichever mafia/triad role reads PMs.

  3. #3

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    I support the idea. The issue with spy reading PMs is that it's a town role that becomes self-confirmable super easily; no consig would say "Hey, I read your PM!" for obvious reasons, so it's pretty good.

    I don't see a reason to add that to blackmailer, though. One role that reads PMs is enough. It could be put on blackmailer instead of consig if it's deemed better, I guess, but I don't see the need to do that.
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  4. #4

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    well this is a hard-counter against the PM the gov method. Now if people PM the gov the mafia wins the game instantly. I know you want to remove that meta, but what exactly do you want to replace it with? cuz if you made this change right now and nothing else, in order to preserve the current meta people would just start demanding that consig be excluded from setups.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  5. #5

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    cuz if you made this change right now and nothing else, in order to preserve the current meta people would just start demanding that consig be excluded from setups.
    well you can do any of these options below in any order/combination.

    1. put the reading pm stuff on a new mafia role instead of consig. its what I suggested long ago. that way mafia could still have an investigator bootleg.

    2. add this passive ability to spy:
    if spy pm's anyone, mafia can't read it.
    if anyone pm's spy, mafia also can't read it.
    That means town will have to rely on a middleman that isn't as easily confirmable as mayor/marshall to safely convey info.
    the drawback is that while he has that passive and theres a bunch of PMs going towards him, mafia can easily determine spy's identity while town bickers over whatever they should trust that spy claim enough to talk to him and protect him. but isn't this a big WIFOM moment that should be a part of the game's design anyways?

    3. if the original intent of this feature was that all numbers are revealed, how about censoring numbers for the mafia's view of the PMs?

    So if some sher pms the mayor

    "12 the sher|N1:3-NS|N2:14-rb'd"

    then mafia sees

    "## the sher|N#:#-ns|N#:##-rb'd"
    Last edited by Grakylan; February 18th, 2020 at 10:05 AM.

  6. #6

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    well this is a hard-counter against the PM the gov method. Now if people PM the gov the mafia wins the game instantly. I know you want to remove that meta, but what exactly do you want to replace it with? cuz if you made this change right now and nothing else, in order to preserve the current meta people would just start demanding that consig be excluded from setups.
    Describing a replacement for a meta-game isn't an easy question to answer. When I think of developing certain aspects of the game it's usually to address problems.

    We know Mafia is meant to be Uninformed Majority vs. Informed Minority and the two the problems are:

    1. Spy completely denies the ability for Mafia to coordinate effectively without significant risk.

    2. Private messaging allows the town to coordinate effectively with minimal risk through any confirmed role.

    ------

    I'll preface this next part by saying I believe Consig should be able to detect exact role at all times. I hate investigator and crimes.

    With that and the two listed problems in mind, I understand why this suggestion would be made. It gives the town a taste of it's own medicine in a sense. But I don't believe we should be developing around a mechanic that isn't always on despite being prevalent.

    But the primary issue is that in many cases this makes the Spy even stronger. Imagine a Consig posting a roles list only for Spy to confirm himself by knowing all that information. As you put it -- yes it's a hit list for the Mafia but it's also a gateway to letting the town coordinate even further. A Spy could tell doctors to protect one another etc. even at the cost of his own life.

    Obviously, removing the Spy's ability to eavesdrop eliminates this issue and makes the Mafia significantly stronger overall. Enough to where conveying information like a player's exact role in night chat doesn't indirectly help the town in some cases. It brings the Consig and a few other Mafia roles back into the spotlight.

    ------

    I will say I'm open to buffing Consig but I'm not 100% sure he'll need it even post-patch. At first I considered Actress to be a superior as they share the same ability but show up in the graveyard differently. But now I'm wondering whether Consig's ability to turn into a Godfather (an Actress cannot) is underrated when comparing the two. It's complicated.

    TLDR; Nerf/change Spy, make Mafia smarter. Adjust accordingly.

  7. #7

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    If you're looking to destroy that particular meta, just remove PMs as an option in the game.

    aamirus is right that this will just be a "please exclude consig so I can win kthnxbai" situation.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  8. #8

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    If you're looking to destroy that particular meta, just remove PMs as an option in the game.

    aamirus is right that this will just be a "please exclude consig so I can win kthnxbai" situation.
    TOS implementation seems to be disabling messaging to and from the Mayor after a reveal. Which would curb that meta of private messaging significantly.

  9. #9

  10. #10

  11. #11

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    The exact role option as a whole is overpowered. It's a legacy option really - if its becoming the norm for consigs to have it then we might adopt the other option to just restrict PMs to conformable.

    Restricting PMs from revealed governments isn't a bad idea - Also sorta buffs crier as a government because they can still reveal and receive PMs.

    Last edited by Elixir; March 26th, 2020 at 06:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  12. #12

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    Restricting PMs from revealed governments isn't a bad idea - Also sorta buffs crier as a government because they can still reveal and receive PMs.
    I am in favor of the idea, but it requires some further buildup on the side through semi-relevant mechanics/roles to really reform the metainto a mind-based mindgame that can actually be feasible.

    Take for instance the crier. What can the crier do when he finds out hes buffed by doing absolutely nothing? He can be PM'd, but the info he receives might be too sensitive to be released at night chat. And night chat is his whole shtick: it is hard to make good use of it usually. Not to mention people having rightfully questioned the Crier/Judge balance recently: the crier is not easily confirmable and is usually treated like a Judge claim. Just saying, theres a lot more buffing needed for crier before it becomes confirmable.

    On the topic of mafia reading PMs, I will only support it if mafia still aren't told the identities of the PMers, and all numbers in the PMs are censored. That way its still balanced and skills of deduction are still needed. But if mafia is told straight up that 12 the sheriff pm'd 3 the mayor "12 the sher|N1:1-maf" (as everyone in this thread seems to have assumed here), then yes we have a problem.
    Last edited by Grakylan; March 26th, 2020 at 11:02 PM.

  13. #13

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakylan View Post
    I am in favor of the idea, but it requires some further buildup on the side through semi-relevant mechanics/roles to really reform the metainto a mind-based mindgame that can actually be feasible.
    I'll sound like a broken record, but I think its understated how little the Mafia can actually communicate. Once the patch is done I think one of the first things to address will be that.
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  14. #14

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    I'll sound like a broken record, but I think its understated how little the Mafia can actually communicate. Once the patch is done I think one of the first things to address will be that.
    In fact, a majority of issues are stymied from this compromise. From confirmability of Gov roles, to private messages etc. That's why I think suggestions for PM related things are made so often. We need the actual Mafia to be able to play smarter together before the team with 6 extra members get buffed.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  15. #15

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    In fact, a majority of issues are stymied from this compromise. From confirmability of Gov roles, to private messages etc. That's why I think suggestions for PM related things are made so often. We need the actual Mafia to be able to play smarter together before the team with 6 extra members get buffed.
    A half decent maf team doesn't need that much communication so long as the town isn't amazing. One or two good people can really set it up for you most of the time (please add more communication ways though, it sucks not being able to talk with my buddies)

  16. #16

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    I wholeheartedly agree with Frinckles, and think the meta could be greatly improved by improving the Mafia's ability to communicate. It could force the town to play better. Varcron's statement is factually true, but I think that to develop the game to a better state, it needs to be though the other way around, like what Frinckles is doing.
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    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    I want to drink your blood, vomit it out, and then spell out the words "FAKE BITCH" with it

  17. #17

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Varcron View Post
    A half decent maf team doesn't need that much communication so long as the town isn't amazing. One or two good people can really set it up for you most of the time (please add more communication ways though, it sucks not being able to talk with my buddies)
    That's not the point though. A very basic point of Mafia is to be able to craft up some diabolical shit without the town knowing. To tell my Interrogator to jail and kill me and become 'confirmed.' For a kill list to be made or a teammate told to bus me. A spy reading mafia chat (or the threat of it) compromises this. It has nothing to do with the skill level of players.
    (๑˃̵ᴗ˂̵)ﻭ 레드벨벳 ! ! ٩(♡ε♡ )۶

  18. #18

    Re: Added Option: Consig Read PMs

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    That's not the point though. A very basic point of Mafia is to be able to craft up some diabolical shit without the town knowing. To tell my Interrogator to jail and kill me and become 'confirmed.' For a kill list to be made or a teammate told to bus me. A spy reading mafia chat (or the threat of it) compromises this. It has nothing to do with the skill level of players.
    True, which is why you should add it in anyways, cause right now it's mostly about how smart or dumb your maf are by themselves.

 

 

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