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  1. #1

    Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    So, obvious the 'Do you like the Cultist' thread is fairly inconclusive. Some have mentioned an overhaul of the role, others enjoy it in it's current state.

    Addressing the primary issues involved with Cult should probably be a priority.

    -It snowballs out of control.
    -Dislike of a new win condition / playing against your old win condition.
    -Players dislike losing their old abilities.
    -Players can game-throw re-actively against Cult.
    -Variable settings can make the role to be over or under-powered.
    -Contention on whether it's truly a neutral or if it's a faction.
    -It lacks developed integration into the game (Mafia, Masons.)
    -Something I missed, probably.

    But I'd also like to point out a few positives about it.

    -It's unique, and classic.
    -It can make for memorable experiences.
    -It's spooky.

    -----------------

    So, as I posted before - one iteration I enjoy is the following.

    Zombie: Infects a player each night and wins if the number of infected players ever outnumber the number of living players.
    We can assume a few things:

    1. Players will be silently infected: This encourages them to play to their win con as they retain their abilities.
    2. A 'zombie' victory would not spur game-throwing / slow-rolling: It would simply end once a critical mass was reached.
    3. The 'zombies' would not be given any sort of night chat; They wouldn't know they're infected.
    4. Any player can be infected (aside from Masons, probably) including Mafia and Neutrals.

    So, there's a few positives already. Yet, a ton of questions.

    Does this fit the definition of a Neutral Evil?
    Do all infected win in the event of a zombie victory?
    Is this infection curable by Doctor? What about Masons -- would they kill or cleanse?
    Would player's deaths reveal any sign of 'infection' (to retain the hysteria of cult?)
    Does the infection rate need limits (similar to Cult?)

    ------------------
    A personal take-away is that the idea of a Witch, Mafioso and Mayor all being on the same victory screen is intriguing.

    And if it's necessary to point out for Zombie-haters: The flavor can be whatever. You could name this role Voodooist who is 'making' voodoo dolls of people to win, I don't care.

    Anyway, this is just an idea. Maybe a rework of Cultist, maybe a new role. Who knows.
    Last edited by Frinckles; February 7th, 2020 at 12:15 PM.

  2. #2

  3. #3

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Not knowing that you win condition has changed is bad and goes against every single part of the spirit of the game imo. How are you supposed to play towards your new wincon if you don't even know it exists? How are people supposed to find you if you don't know yourself that you're trying to kill others?

    A cult-ish role that allows you to keep your old ability is nice, I like it.

    Neutral Evils being able to win only under a solo win condition, which also happens to make a lot of other people win with them but still, is not really typical. It's a similar issue Cult has.

    Everyone being convertable is a fun idea to toy with, but I fear it would be weird if the Mafia had one member zombified. You can't kill them off, after all. You'd have to lynch them. What would stop the zombified teammate to just call his entire ex-team out upon death?
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
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    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
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    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
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    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  4. #4

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Not knowing that you win condition has changed is bad and goes against every single part of the spirit of the game imo. How are you supposed to play towards your new wincon if you don't even know it exists? How are people supposed to find you if you don't know yourself that you're trying to kill others?

    A cult-ish role that allows you to keep your old ability is nice, I like it.

    Neutral Evils being able to win only under a solo win condition, which also happens to make a lot of other people win with them but still, is not really typical. It's a similar issue Cult has.

    Everyone being convertable is a fun idea to toy with, but I fear it would be weird if the Mafia had one member zombified. You can't kill them off, after all. You'd have to lynch them. What would stop the zombified teammate to just call his entire ex-team out upon death?
    My understanding of it would be more of a 'mark.'

    These players are marked and continue their own win condition; Find Mafia, Kill Town etc.

    It seems you're more worried about whether players are playing for or against their own win condition unknowingly -- which in this case is a boon. If a critical mass is not met, they are still doing their correct job. And if it is, the game is already won.

    Multiple NE (if a save has them) can win together with the mafia, generally. This allows a more flexible win condition that transcends all factions. They can be Mafia, NE, Triad, Town, whatever -- really.

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    My understanding of it would be more of a 'mark.'

    These players are marked and continue their own win condition; Find Mafia, Kill Town etc.

    It seems you're more worried about whether players are playing for or against their own win condition unknowingly -- which in this case is a boon. If a critical mass is not met, they are still doing their correct job. And if it is, the game is already won.

    Multiple NE (if a save has them) can win together with the mafia, generally. This allows a more flexible win condition that transcends all factions. They can be Mafia, NE, Triad, Town, whatever -- really.
    In this case, the role becomes an unfun version of Cult. It's just one guy who knows what he's doing (the original Zombie), and all the others are unaware of the conversion. It's not just about losing because of their original wincon, because that doesn't apply here; it's that the work they put towards their original wincon becomes irrelevant, just because of one guy who decided that they were to be infected.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  7. #7

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    In this case, the role becomes an unfun version of Cult. It's just one guy who knows what he's doing (the original Zombie), and all the others are unaware of the conversion. It's not just about losing because of their original wincon, because that doesn't apply here; it's that the work they put towards their original wincon becomes irrelevant, just because of one guy who decided that they were to be infected.
    That largely describes cult currently.

  8. #8

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    That largely describes cult currently.
    Indeed, and that's a problem with cult, which is why I generally dislike it. Your idea amplifies the issue, though: not telling people that they're infected would make them play their original alignment all game long, while the current cult just tells you "that's not your wincon anymore". It'd waste more time and effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?

  9. #9

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    -Does this fit the definition of a Neutral Evil?
    -Yes, he playing against the town win condition.

    -Do all infected win in the event of a zombie victory?
    -No, it must be zombie victory... why Zombie, btw? he is not zombie, he is Patient Zero.

    -Is this infection curable by Doctor? What about Masons -- would they kill or cleanse?
    -Hmmm... If it's curable, doctor will be a bit op, especially if we have 2 town prots doctors. Doctor can DETECT infestation maybe?
    As about masons, why must they kill someone infested? How can they detect him? Masons is just kind of sect...

    -Would player's deaths reveal any sign of 'infection' (to retain the hysteria of cult?)
    -Yes, sure!

    -Does the infection rate need limits (similar to Cult?)
    -No. Sure, not.

    The main problem is that we already have this role in game. And it's Arsonist. Infestation works the same way as dousing - kill everyone, doused player still have his ability and so on. It's just auto-burn arson.

  10. #10

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    It's an interesting idea.
    How about a very specific form of a Cult where the Cultist, instead of directly converting people, marks them - the marked target knowing that they are marked, but not by whom they were marked.
    Where I was going with this idea: the Marked person would, upon the original Cultist's death, become Cultist themselves (or gain some powerful, specific ability, along with the ability to convert a player at night).

    One issue I see with it is that it might not be particularly fun for the Marked target to become a cultist like that, especially without knowing their partner. One obvious solution is to give the two Cultists a night chat. On the other hand, if one infects a particularly powerful role (e.g. - a Vigilante), it might lead to an interesting dynamic.

    Another idea is to have a random number of players marked as Sinners at the start of the game. In no particular order, a random Sinner will, every night, become a Demon (the players DO know they are sinners).
    And then you could give each Demon some very specific (and potentially powerful) abilities (I'm referencing a very old FM game here, I believe it was FM X, or FM IX). This would most likely only work with Cult-only games.
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    Polish my nuts and serve me a milkshake. Anyone who uses scum syntax will be lynched.
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  11. #11

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    edit: random number of players meaning at most, idk, 3/4.
    whenever a Sinner becomes a Demon, they gain access to the Demon night chat.
    note that Demons cannot convert others.
    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Polish my nuts and serve me a milkshake. Anyone who uses scum syntax will be lynched.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    lmao he is the baby in your picture

  12. #12

  13. #13

  14. #14

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Quote Originally Posted by rumox View Post
    Role retention after conversion or a slew of unique roles for Cult (no conversion) is the only way to bring the faction to a satisfactory position imho.

    Any changes to Cult tho needs to be meet with an entire evaluation of other faction roles to see if they play well and fairly.
    A small squad of killing and protective characters who know each other's identity and recruit at night? Sounds perfectly fair to me.

  15. #15

  16. #16

  17. #17

    Re: Zombie / Cultist Rework?

    Yeah this seems more like a Neutral Evil with a unique and unusual wincon (visit X players to win the game).
    Its more like a version of the Arsonist/Serial Killer than anything else.

    I agree that role retention or special cult roles corresponding to town roles are pretty much necessary for the cult. Rumox compared the way ToS handles the cult to the way sc2 does. Good points and he mentioned that the cult have no defense against the Mafia. If I remember correctly, Vampires in ToS kill a Mafia if they attempt to convert them. Perhaps cult could use such a mechanic?
    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Polish my nuts and serve me a milkshake. Anyone who uses scum syntax will be lynched.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    lmao he is the baby in your picture

 

 

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