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  1. #1

    [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    So I've been toying with the idea of roles that can kill during the day. Some of you may know about the (unfinished) one-shot Arsonist Day Ignite -- and it's still very much in a testing state. Anyway, I've been doing some thinking about Vigilante as a whole and how it's perceived.

    The ability to take another player out of the game can be extremely powerful and in same cases, rewarding. That's the real appeal of it at the end of the day. Vigilante doesn't suffer from a condition or repercussion for killing a Town member, however. Admittedly, it's debatable if he needs one but consider the following;

    First proposal is to force the Vigilante to commit suicide the following night if he kills a Town member. The suicide cannot be healed. He cannot choose to shoot the same night he suicides, however a Witch can still control him to shoot before he does.
    Pros:
    -Increases the skill cap of the role.
    -Dissuades hip-firing / griefing.
    Cons:
    -Will in some cases, cause the town to lose two members.

    Second proposal is to allow the Vigilante to shoot during the day. This cannot be used during day 1, if they have 0 shots remaining or they are blackmailed. If they kill a Town member during the night, they will not be able to use this ability the following day. It may also not be used during Trial / Court / Marshall Lynch or against any revealed Town Government roles. The player's screen will flash red and they will instantly die. A "Bang" SFX will play and a system message saying who died and who killed them will appear. At the end of the day (like a Marshall Lynch) the role/alignment of the deceased will appear.

    Pros:
    -Allows the Vigilante more flexibility of when to kill.
    -Can orchestrate a kill by working in tandem with other Town members for a more accurate shot.
    Cons:
    -It would make a Vigilante claim by a Mafia member very difficult to prove. (Dunno why you're claiming Vig tho bro.)

    Notes:
    Note that night immunity or possession of a bulletproof vest has no effect on day kills such as this.
    Following proposal #1 -- They will commit suicide if they shot a Town member during the day.
    -------------------

    Anyway, this was just one possible implementation I was considering. It's possible we should just leave Vigilante in it's current state and investigate adding this sort of mechanic to a different role. Though far off -- this is uncharted territory for SC2Mafia so thoughts & remarks are welcome.

    c:
    Last edited by Frinckles; August 22nd, 2019 at 10:07 AM.

  2. #2

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Straight up yikes on the first one. People killing themselves, and increasing KPN is just bad for the town. So that con listed is pretty huge.

    Love the second idea though, but before this comes out, and to help the mafia mind games, i'd suggest a few other things
    - figure out mafia assassin
    - maybe consider allowing night immunity to last into the day? then me as a mafia can say "oh im vigilante! I shot PlayerA, and they didn't die. They must be godfather. DEAAATTHHHH"

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  3. #3

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Thanks for the response Voss. c:

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Straight up yikes on the first one. People killing themselves, and increasing KPN is just bad for the town. So that con listed is pretty huge.
    I'm pretty open to alternatives. Simply reducing the amount of remaining shots by one or disallowing Vigilante to shoot after a misfire could also work to varying degrees.

    Specifically my rationale for suicide was:
    -Flavor wise, a vigilante who takes it upon himself to enact justice likely would feel remorseful; Hell, a Godfather can kill himself over a Jester.
    -It adds some sort of check to the Vigilante role. When you're more likely to hip-fire at a Town member before scum (2 of which are usually night immune) I think adding incentive to play more cautiously makes sense. The ability to make effective reads should be a part of the equation, 2 dead Town members is better than 3 of 4 in every scenario.
    -Impending suicide isn't as bad as you may think. First, if a Vigilante kills a town member he doesn't have to reveal that he did it: This opens the possibility for scum to waste a kill. Secondly, he can tell a Bus Driver to switch him with himself or a high priority target to prevent a kill. Third, unlike Jester suicides which are random by nature; If a Vigilante did reveal that he misfired -- investigative and protective roles would have a higher chance of success the following night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Love the second idea though, but before this comes out, and to help the mafia mind games, i'd suggest a few other things
    - figure out mafia assassin
    - maybe consider allowing night immunity to last into the day? then me as a mafia can say "oh im vigilante! I shot PlayerA, and they didn't die. They must be godfather. DEAAATTHHHH
    I've been thinking of adding roles that are specific to only Triad or only Mafia, really to spice up gang-war setups.
    Triad Sniper was one of them:
    Basically an auxiliary day kill that didn't reveal who fired the shot. The trade-off was that the Sniper won't know who the other Triad are, nor will they attend night meetings -- but the Triad know who the Sniper is.
    There's a lot of brainstorming to do on the mechanics of it all and it really requires it's own post.

    ----------

    Night Immunity is in overabundance in my opinion. If a player decides, "hey im evil n imma kill u" I think they should be able to. There are certain roles like SK and Arsonist who need it and it's seen as a generally acceptable passive ability for them (even outside our community.) Does an Executioner? Perhaps not so much, though again -- this is probably deserves it's own thread.

    In a similar way, I don't think Night Immunity should hold weight when you're shot in plain daylight. It's meant to be a powerful, one-time kill. I see no reason why a Vigilante shouldn't be able to shoot a pro-scum executioner that the Town doesn't want to waste a lynch on, at his disgression.
    Last edited by Frinckles; August 22nd, 2019 at 11:06 AM.

  4. #4

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Vigilantes are already powerful enough and don't need extra flexibility when to kill.

    Removing another role from the ability for evils to claim is a bad idea. I've successfully claimed vigi as an evil role before. Not for newbs to try but it can be done.

    Day killings will throw the whole game into disarray. What happens after the shot? The day ends? Town can continue to lynch someone?

    A dumb vigi shooting a townie is punishment enough for the town already. Having them commit suicide after the fact is not a good move.

    Of all the roles that need buffed, vigi is not one of them.

  5. #5

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    I have shot so many dumb townies who just played like total scums (govs mostly) that killing me also in return is retarded. Especially that sometimes Vigilante has to shoot blindly if town is passive and won't trial anyone.

    If any role should commit suicide after killing a townie it would be Jailor (i'm still not a great fan of that mechanic), since Jailor has other abilities than to kill so he doesn't need to kill his target always and most importantly he gathers info on his victim before he deciedes to kill, so he has a lot more to work with to determine if it's townie or not than Vigilante.

    Kills during the day are also really not needed for anything.

    On the night immunity thing, i really have no problem with benigns being night immune but i have a problem with Mafia/Triad. Everytime i see that someone put a Consigliere/Administrator replacing GF/DH option on i want to shoot myself. Consigliere is already very powerfull role if it can detect exact role (which it does 95% of the time lately), we don't really need a second GF also. And i would really like to see an option that turns GF/DH to Mafioso/Enforcer if they are last team member alive. Early-mid game we need GF/DH with immunity to rb, kill and detection, but we really don't need that late game when we already killed rest of the triad but we can't find GF/DH because all roles we have are sheriffs. If Mafia/Triad is down to one member it means they fucked up already.

  6. #6

  7. #7

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackholeX View Post
    Interesting thought, If a vigilante kills a town, The next day he is put into jail for questioning for that day, and night. So he would be silenced during the day, and considered in jail and protected that following night. After the night he is released on bond and play resumes normally.
    that would incentivize shooting town tho

    A better idea that doesn't border on Town of Salem's cancer is if vigilante shoots a townie, then the police confiscate his gun and ammo, turning him to a citizen.
    Suiciding for killing town is better reserved for jailor imo balance-wise
    Last edited by Grakylan; August 22nd, 2019 at 07:34 PM.

  8. #8

  9. #9

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Quote Originally Posted by Grakylan View Post
    that would incentivize shooting town tho

    A better idea that doesn't border on Town of Salem's cancer is if vigilante shoots a townie, then the police confiscate his gun and ammo, turning him to a citizen.
    Suiciding for killing town is better reserved for jailor imo balance-wise
    I like this.

  10. #10

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Quote Originally Posted by renegade View Post
    Day killings will throw the whole game into disarray. What happens after the shot? The day ends? Town can continue to lynch someone?

    A dumb vigi shooting a townie is punishment enough for the town already. Having them commit suicide after the fact is not a good move.
    Day kills occur instantly and bypass night immunity. When it happens the player(s) are killed instantly, all votes & the vote count are reset, then discussion / lynching continues normally. At the end of the day, the roles of everyone killed during the day are revealed (like a Marshall lynch.) I believe it's a bit too alarmist to call a new mechanic disarray. It's certainly new and may not be what our community is used to but it's existed in other respected variants of Mafia for a long time. I enjoy trying to push the limits of what our mod is capable of.

    To your second point, I agree. A Vigilante suicide would only compound the negative utility of shooting a Town member. I'd opt for the alternative @Grakylan proposed; Take away his guns and ammo to effectively (perhaps literally) make him a Citizen.

    Further reading on day kills to consider:
    MS Wiki for Arsonist & MS Wiki for Vigilante

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    Kills during the day are also really not needed for anything.
    Not sure what exactly you mean by this -- It's just a mechanic considered for the game and it's only a prototype. I added more above on it above but if you have additional reasons for feeling this way, please elaborate.

    -----------------------
    I've had some time to consider feedback and I feel that giving Vigilante(s) a day kill is probably unnecessary. The idea originally was inspired by EpicMafia's version of the 'Sheriff' that has one gun to use during the day but otherwise no abilities; It would roll in the Town Killing slot. The real power of the role comes from confirming itself & allowing the Town to have an additional 'lynch' (or mis-lynch) essentially. Problem was, it felt redundant to have Vigilante & that 'Sheriff' in the same game -- so I suggested just adding that mechanic to Vig though I see that's not the best solution.

    Anyway, I'm gonna mark this as rejected and shelf the idea for now. If any of you have more thoughts on anything discussed in this thread feel free to post it. I'll respond when I can.

    And thanks again for all the feedback. c:
    Last edited by Frinckles; August 23rd, 2019 at 08:39 AM.

  11. #11

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    I just don't think that any roles should be given ability to kill during the day, judge is already annoying enough. What's the point of roles like Beguiler, Witch, BD or sometimes even Jailor and Kidnapper if they can just be killed during the day because they can't use their ability then. It would make Vigilante too strong for no reason really, and like renegade said it would also make claiming Vigilante harder. Vigilante is good claim for Disguiser if he wants to disguise next night and if someone confirmed found trespassing and murder on you, you have to claim Vigilante since this is only possibility in this case. And overall i just feel that day should be focused on chat and trials not on using abilities apart from few governing roles.

  12. #12

    Re: [Vigilante] Fun in the Sun

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    I just don't think that any roles should be given ability to kill during the day, judge is already annoying enough. What's the point of roles like Beguiler, Witch, BD or sometimes even Jailor and Kidnapper if they can just be killed during the day because they can't use their ability then. It would make Vigilante too strong for no reason really, and like renegade said it would also make claiming Vigilante harder. Vigilante is good claim for Disguiser if he wants to disguise next night and if someone confirmed found trespassing and murder on you, you have to claim Vigilante since this is only possibility in this case. And overall i just feel that day should be focused on chat and trials not on using abilities apart from few governing roles.
    What I was saying was that if the idea is revisited; It will not be Vigilante using this ability during the day. It will be something more akin to what I described above. It's far off anyway.

  13. #13

 

 

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