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View Poll Results: The Investigator Is:

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  • Good

    2 22.22%
  • Okay

    4 44.44%
  • Eh?

    1 11.11%
  • Terrible.

    2 22.22%
Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1

    DIscussion: Investigator

    What are your thoughts on the Investigator? Do you feel it's in a good place or needs to be re-made/reverted/given some buff?

    Points to keep in mind:
    • This is the second iteration of the investigator. The original one gave results based on pairings of roles, "your target could be a blank, blank or blank."
    • The crimes array could be extended, but at what point would we be basically re-creating the older system?


    If we were to add possible crimes, differentiating between trespassing & stalking was about all I got.. and maybe the auditor actually reporting people for tax evasion. I'm not sure if that's sufficient, however.

    Extra reading (blast from the past for some of you):

    Revert / Crimes Array - 2016:
    http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...t=investigator

    Framer implications - 2016:
    http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...t=investigator

    Some reaction to the initial changes - 2014:
    http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...stigator+crime

    A crimes array suggestion - 2015:
    http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...stigator+crime

    Another reaction to rework - 2015:
    http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...stigator+crime


    Fire away.
    Last edited by Frinckles; July 19th, 2019 at 12:09 PM.

  2. #2

  3. #3

  4. #4

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Is that necessary when Mafia already has consigliere?
    sorry, i dont remember if consigliere is the role that is currently the investigator, or the role that finds out people's roles. if consig finds out crimes, i suggest it to go back to figuring out roles. if its currently figuring out roles, then i suggest just dropping the 'crimes' investigator.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  5. #5

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    sorry, i dont remember if consigliere is the role that is currently the investigator, or the role that finds out people's roles. if consig finds out crimes, i suggest it to go back to figuring out roles. if its currently figuring out roles, then i suggest just dropping the 'crimes' investigator.
    Currently, the Consigliere usually detects exact role, but I think it can also be set to display crimes only. The former is much more popular than the latter.

  6. #6

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Investigator is fine where it is, it pushes people to claim certain things depending on what crimes their real role has but in most cases it won't give you direct results like sheriff. But if you expand crimes too much it will make this role too powerfull since it would get so much info that it would be just like detecting exact roles anyway. Only crime that is just too rare is destruction of property (2 neut killers and vet have it), it should be given to some roles like mafia/triad deceptions since they are usually powerfull roles. Another thing that should probably change is giving some description on how crimes are given to players. There is no clear indication in-game how exactly crimes work and when each crime is given to player, only place you can look for it is wiki. So there are few experienced players who know how it works and can use it to their advantage while everyone else has no idea because there is no information in-game. Also on topic of crimes Framer/Forger should be changed. Currently the possibility that Framer can frame anything that makes sense is so low that 90% of the time you will recognise that your target got framed. For example Framer will give murder, but he won't give trespassing so you know it's impossible. He will give destruction of property or disturbing the peace which are so rare that also most of the times you know it was Framer (and when they come up on the role which already has trespassing you know it's complete bullshit). Framer should either be able to pick crimes he wants to frame or be atleast given some crime sets like trespassing and murder (or maybe even removing crimes so framed target comes up no crimes) so what he frames could actually mislead town instead of confirming guy as non triad. But anyway crime system as a whole is pretty solid. It gives enough information that it is usefull but not enough to just lynch or confirm people early game. It is also great role to fake claim if you are for example Arsonist. It has enough detailed information so you can't always come up with good fake Investigator lw but not enough to be impossible to fake claim if town gave some information to you like revealing their roles publicly. Detective and Lookout on the other hand are so hard to claim that everytime you will try you will either make a mistake or your lw will be so weak that you will be the most suspicious person in town, very rarely you can up with something that is good enough for town to believe you.
    Last edited by RufusPL; July 19th, 2019 at 01:13 PM.

  7. #7

  8. #8

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Certain roles investigated had the same result.

    Doctor/SK - "Works with knives"
    Arsonist/Bus Driver - "Has gasoline"

    That's all I can remember off the top of my head. Was a long time ago. I think with some modern tweaking of the old system is a valid exploration. As you can see with the old BD/Arso pairing if the Arsonists invest results were shared he is basically auto lynched on the spot.

  9. #9

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Current iteration of investigator gives evils flexibility with their fake claims. Reverting to pairing results will shoehorn evils into claiming their paired role or risk being auto lynched. Considering a lot of people are counting roles, even if an evil claims their paired role they may very well be auto lynched still if it is impossible for their paired role to exist.

  10. #10

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    I think itís fine how it is. It can detect some things the other invests canít (neutrals for example). It can confirm players due to their crimes which a sheriff canít do. Overall, itís probably weaker than sheriff, sure. But the whole basis of an RNG-based roles setup is that each slot needs to be able to be stronger or weaker sometimes. I mean just look at how many setups currently have a crier possible to fill the town gov slot over mayor or Marshall even though the crier is currently way weaker than those roles and can easily be disabled. Itís part of the RNG and if you want to make all roles equal in strength you might as well just delete all the role variants imo.
    And all that being said itís not even particularly weaker than sheriff. Sure some games everybody you check has no crimes but some games as sheriff everybody is not suspicious. You also have a lot higher chance of avoiding a mislynch as an invest versus a sheriff because the LW is a lot harder to fake.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  11. #11

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Overall, itís probably weaker than sheriff, sure. And all that being said itís not even particularly weaker than sheriff. Sure some games everybody you check has no crimes but some games as sheriff everybody is not suspicious. You also have a lot higher chance of avoiding a mislynch as an invest versus a sheriff because the LW is a lot harder to fake.
    The main problem with Sheriff is that he is almost always impossible to confirm and that makes him overall the weakest investigative role in my opinion. You found Neut Killer? You can easly be triad support. You lynched triad? You can easly be his teammate. Not even mentioning the situation when Sheriff found only ns whole game then his credibility is the same as Doctor who healed no one. You can never fully trust a Sheriff lead, he can't even trust it himself since Framer, Witch and BD can easly change his results and he has no way of finding it out on his own. Also ns tells you nothing because there are non town roles that are ns. Other Investigative roles can usually notice if there is something weird with their lead and can confirm themselfs by what they found even if they never checked actual triad/neut players. If town has 3-4 Sheriffs they will usually lose if Triad will have good defenses. If town has 3-4 Investigators or 3-4 Detectives on the other hand it's a lot easier since they can atleast confirm themselfs.

  12. #12

  13. #13

  14. #14

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Edit since my OP was a bit cheeky.
    Sheriff is fine as it is. Its strong investigative ability is tempered by an inability to self confirm, which leaves it invulnerable to mislynch. At the same time, it also means mafia are less likely to claim sheriff with a Mafia/Triad/Cult check.
    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Polish my nuts and serve me a milkshake. Anyone who uses scum syntax will be lynched.

  15. #15

  16. #16

    Re: DIscussion: Investigator

    Sheriff is good at confirming other investigative roles. If someone claims Investigator/Detective/Lookout with lw that basically couldn't be faked he can only be either town or triad support so Sheriff can easly check that and either find triad or fully confirm a town invest. But that being said he needs to be matched with other investigative roles for this to work not another Sheriffs.

 

 

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