Register

User Tag List

Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Crier vs Judge

  1. #1

    Crier vs Judge

    To start this off.

    Crier is the Worst Town Gov to random into. Though it's a unique and fun role to play, it's honestly underwhelming. Though when you have a Judge and Crier it's a really good dynamic but in a typical 9 3 3 or 8 3 3 1 - You have a Town Random Government, that cycles between Marshal, Crier, or Mayor. With most people putting Crier at 0% or a very low %. Thus when a Judge has a 15% or greater chance. The Crier is often always viewed as a Judge. Unless there are clearly both there.

    Suggestions to help counter Judge are as follows. These could be implemented in any way.

    Buff Crier:
    +1 Vote
    +2 Vote
    +3 Vote
    Hidden Vote
    Hidden Reveal
    all Optional - to help counter a possible Judge or to tip the balance in a situation where town is losing.
    Crier votes could be, Public, or Hidden. - Crier could Reveal or stay anonymous with just the extra votes showing up.

    These options give players a unique way to challenge a Judge, or to change the tide in a situation where town is losing, and the crier could be the deal breaker. I would assume that most players would save their reveal until the late game as to not tip off they are crier, and who they are. So they wouldn't be likely to get PM's.

    Though with these changes, it may be good to look at if they should be able to be healed at night, as is regularly or to not be healed. Though this is true with just about any role reveals.

    In summary, Judge should get a Nerf but I think it should be a small nerf and crier should get a buff.

    Akivar - Jester Ravegod.

  2. #2

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Thanks for the post @Akivar .

    So we've had this debate about the dynamics between Crier & Judge a few times throughout R&D, particularly in the discussion threads @Elixir has made.
    This is the conclusion I've arrived at for now:

    I believe all of the problems surrounding Crier stem from the Judge's ability to talk at night. Confirmability should be a given as a Town Government role who is able to send system messages. In the upcoming patch, there will be an option to disable the Judge's ability to talk at night for those who feel similarly. The original reason DR gave the Judge this ability was so that the possible crimes (corruption etc.) lined up on the investigative array with other town Governments. Additionally, he wanted Judge to have a fake-claim in the role of Crier as it's the only Government role that can spawn alongside a Marshall/Mayor. The result unfortunately is that this reduced Crier to an non-confirmable government role while buffing the already powerful Judge in comparison to other neutral evils. In the upcoming patch, new roles such as the Oracle will have similar results with investigation array (if that was even still an issue) and nothing will really change as far as a Judge's ability to court and kill anyone confirmed if he can no longer talk at night. Finally I'll add that some interesting ideas have been put forth to buff Crier in other ways such as giving him a secondary ability (like yours or the Party Host's.) That said, I'm not keen on the idea of simply adding more actions to counteract disparities in balance between roles. It would destroy the unique identity of the Crier as a communication-centered role and a lot of those abilities would be suited for new Town Government roles instead, which I'll say -- are hard to come up with.

    The discussion, of course is still open, but as for now this is the route I'll probably be taking. Once the update is pushed and the dust settles, we can re-evaluate the dynamic again.

    Edit: Forgot to add something; I actually dig some of the ideas you had for vote mechanics. A Town Government role who had multiple, invisible votes (similar to a blackmailed player) sounds interesting.
    Last edited by Frinckles; July 11th, 2019 at 10:08 AM.

  3. #3

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    See even if crier doesn't get options. The ideas can be other town gov.

    Say - Watchman. - Gets the anonymous Votes.

    Just something to add some spice to the game while possibly dealing with Judge. Though it'd be nice to have some other Night Chat roles if Judge and Crier both keep it. Removing it from Judge would turn Crier into a Troll Roll for a bit unless people start to take it serious and organize the town at night.

  4. #4

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Akivar View Post
    Removing it from Judge would turn Crier into a Troll Roll for a bit unless people start to take it serious and organize the town at night.
    That's dependent on the lobby and what settings are turned on. If Crier is confirmable, it will gain the same respect the other two roles do. Hell, you could chant all night about the last will claims or that people need to be protecting you etc. I do like communication roles though and I'll likely want more down the line.

  5. #5

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Adding party hosts ability to crier fixes this issue


    that said, I'm not keen on the idea of simply adding more actions to counteract disparities in balance between roles. It would destroy the unique identity of the Crier as a communication-centered role
    Giving Crier the ability to enhance towns communication would not destroy his uniqueness as a communication-centered role. It is the perfect compliment to his uniqueness. Party host gives the entire town Criers ability, I think THAT is ruining his uniqueness.

    Judge can ruin day chat.
    Crier (w/party host ability) can ruin night chat.
    Last edited by Distorted; July 12th, 2019 at 09:43 AM.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  6. #6

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Adding party hosts ability to crier fixes this issue




    Giving Crier the ability to enhance towns communication would not destroy his uniqueness as a communication-centered role. It is the perfect compliment to his uniqueness. Party host gives the entire town Criers ability, I think THAT is ruining his uniqueness.

    Judge can ruin day chat.
    Crier (w/party host ability) can ruin night chat.
    Party Host's ability can be blocked via Jailor, requires a day in-between uses and has a maximum of two uses (currently default of one.) It's also only soft confirmable akin to Vigilante and people are told the day prior that a party will begin. What I was saying in regards to uniqueness is that Crier the role has an ability that is passive and simplistic but potentially very effective. Judge being able to talk at night under the same guise takes away from the Crier in uniqueness, confirmability and contributes nothing to the game outside of "hit evens/odds." That's why I'm adding a new option instead of removing a role from the game that hasn't even been tested yet. If it doesn't work out we can see about changing things in other ways.
    Last edited by Frinckles; July 12th, 2019 at 12:06 PM.

  7. #7

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Party Host's ability can be blocked via Jailor, requires a day in-between uses and has a maximum of two uses (currently default of one.) It's also only soft confirmable akin to Vigilante and people are told the day prior that a party will begin. What I was saying in regards to uniqueness is that Crier the role has an ability that is passive and simplistic but potentially very effective. Judge being able to talk at night under the same guise takes away from the Crier in uniqueness, confirmability and contributes nothing to the game outside of "hit evens/odds." That's why I'm adding a new option instead of removing a role from the game that hasn't even been tested yet. If it doesn't work out we can see about changing things in other ways.
    Judge's ability to talk serves as a lot more than just "evens/odds"; people who frequently play know this. Just the fact of being a Mayor alone and seeing a Judge talk is huge. That is giving away there is a Judge. A silent Judge is the optimal strategy for Judge, but not the common meta. So what removing his ability to talk does is forcing everyone to use the more OP strategy with him. So you are BUFFING Judge. Because after he courts he can still say "evens/odds" and what not.

    Every gov role can be blocked. So having a jailor/kidnapper being able to block criers ability wouldent be the only thing that can block a gov - blackmailer blocks mayor/marshalls. So not sure where this point comes into relevance here. But, party hosts confirmability is much higher than vigi. he can confirm himself during the day, without risking killing a town in the process. These comparisons keep being made to roles that KILL TOWN (vets, vigis). they are not the same. there is a big risk when it comes to them confirming themself, party hosts confirmability is more akin to mayors, or marshalls where he can reveal his ability with no risk to town but damages evils. Toss that ontop of criers ability where he can speak at night as crier and boom, you have yourself a solid government Crier role.

    So not only are we resolving this issue without having to buff Judge, but we are resolving the long-standing issue of Crier getting the tweaks that people have been asking for since his release. (an ability)
    Last edited by Distorted; July 13th, 2019 at 09:35 AM.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  8. #8

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    I still don't think that having a confirmed Crier would be any better than having Mayor, directing town through night chat instead of pms would be revealing too much info to evil roles making it pointless (i would probably never listen to Crier orders just to not run into any evil roles like Forger or MM) and you don't even have additional vote power. Crier is only usefull in cult saves at the moment since he can keep confirming himself everynight so town knows he is still town. Crier either needs some more vote power or he needs to be moved to town power (or gov/power atleast) because he is just weaker than Mayor/Marshall no matter what in mafia setups. There is literally one only power slot role in the game, so in my opinion it would suite Crier (and also Escort) well.
    Last edited by RufusPL; July 13th, 2019 at 05:43 PM.

  9. #9

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    I still don't think that having a confirmed Crier would be any better than having Mayor, directing town through night chat instead of pms would be revealing too much info to evil roles making it pointless (i would probably never listen to Crier orders just to not run into any evil roles like Forger or MM) and you don't even have additional vote power. Crier is only usefull in cult saves at the moment since he can keep confirming himself everynight so town knows he is still town. Crier either needs some more vote power or he needs to be moved to town power (or gov/power atleast) because he is just weaker than Mayor/Marshall no matter what in mafia setups. There is literally one only power slot role in the game, so in my opinion it would suite Crier (and also Escort) well.
    Bus driver, veteran, spy, jailor are all town powers.

    however, i do support escort becoming town power. it really is a damn powerful role; especially when he is able to detect RB immunes.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  10. #10

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Bus driver, veteran, spy, jailor are all town powers.
    I meant that spy is only role which is town power only. BD is protective/power, Jailor is power/killing and Vet is power/killing.
    And still if there is any slot other than gov for crier it is power.

    And Escort isn't always that powerfull, it's either too powerfull or completely useless. If you won't let her block SK and DH and also you won't let her detect immunities this role becomes pretty useless or even town damaging because it will most likely block actual usefull town roles and it's taking prot slot so it means we could have 2 escorts blocking townies and no actual protective roles. But if you let her block DH it can lead to some serious abusing if she finds him n1. If i blocked DH n1 i would keep blocking him whole game so triad can't kill anything so it's most likely over for them n1 already. What could prevent that would be giving an option for triad members to turn enfocer (of course they can't go back to their previous role), so they could still kill.
    Last edited by RufusPL; July 15th, 2019 at 05:51 PM.

  11. #11

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    But if you let her block DH it can lead to some serious abusing if she finds him n1. If i blocked DH n1 i would keep blocking him whole game so triad can't kill anything so it's most likely over for them n1 already. What could prevent that would be giving an option for triad members to turn enfocer (of course they can't go back to their previous role), so they could still kill.
    My save lets Escort roleblock anyone they like, DH included. I won't pretend a DH who gets blocked N1 isn't in some real trouble but I don't think the loss of a DH is game over, though it certainly does hurt them.
    In a weird way though, it opens up the gates for plays where the Mafia can simply no-kill to force a mis-lynch from the town when an Escort comes out and says "I RB'D THIS GUY!!"
    Both Consorts & Escorts become a lot stronger.

    Anyway, this thread is about Crier/Judge. c: Keep it on topic fellas.

  12. #12

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    My save lets Escort roleblock anyone they like, DH included. I won't pretend a DH who gets blocked N1 isn't in some real trouble but I don't think the loss of a DH is game over, though it certainly does hurt them.
    I just want to make sure that You understand what i said and i will shut up. I'm not talking about finding DH n1-n2 and lynching him, i'm talking about blocking DH night 1, not telling anyone about that (so they can't lynch train him) and then proceeding to block him everynight so triad can't kill anyone whole game. Without either Auditor auditing one of them or escort, Witch controlling escort, BD bussing DH or NK/Interrogator/Informant killing escort there is no way for them to kill anything which will most likely lead to invests picking off evils one by one when evils can't move the game forward. Only 2 triad roles can actually try to prevent that and you aren't guaranteed to have them and they would need to find out who is escort somehow so chance of that happening is pretty low.

  13. #13

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    I just want to make sure that You understand what i said and i will shut up. I'm not talking about finding DH n1-n2 and lynching him, i'm talking about blocking DH night 1, not telling anyone about that (so they can't lynch train him) and then proceeding to block him everynight so triad can't kill anyone whole game. Without either Auditor auditing one of them or escort, Witch controlling escort, BD bussing DH or NK/Interrogator/Informant killing escort there is no way for them to kill anything which will most likely lead to invests picking off evils one by one when evils can't move the game forward. Only 2 triad roles can actually try to prevent that and you aren't guaranteed to have them and they would need to find out who is escort somehow so chance of that happening is pretty low.
    Ah, that's cruel. I can certainly see that happening. There is a lot of chaos that can happen with power roles interfering with other ones so it'd be circumstantial. Definitely a possible strategy though.

  14. #14

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    There is a lot of chaos that can happen with power roles interfering with other ones so it'd be circumstantial.
    Yeah that's my point, with power roles, the problem is Escort isn't power or atleast protective/power, it's protective. That means I basically have to use it as town random only which isn't perfect. Because if Escort can't block evil killing roles it's definitely not protective role anymore but if it can block killers then it tends to be pretty OP especially that it won't be in the same slot as Jailor for example, it will be in the spot of Doc/BG which are a lot different roles, so town is not only blocking killing roles it gets another confirmed role. I guess it should be it for this Escort discussion.

  15. #15

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    Yeah that's my point, with power roles, the problem is Escort isn't power or atleast protective/power, it's protective. That means I basically have to use it as town random only which isn't perfect. Because if Escort can't block evil killing roles it's definitely not protective role anymore but if it can block killers then it tends to be pretty OP especially that it won't be in the same slot as Jailor for example, it will be in the spot of Doc/BG which are a lot different roles, so town is not only blocking killing roles it gets another confirmed role. I guess it should be it for this Escort discussion.
    It was moved to town support, so it'll be a bit less common. Anyway, you can definitely fire up a Escort discussion.

  16. #16

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    So back to Crier, what i think could really help this role and not change it's identity would be ability to speak anonymously also during the day so he can give town advice on the spot. Most of the time you need to act fast to for example prevent a random lynch or lynch based on wrong understanding of game mechanics, you can't wait till night to do this. Crier would gain ability to really lead the town, they would know gov is speaking to them so they would know they can trust him but "evil" roles wouldn't know who he is so they can't target him. And in terms of balance it looks perfectly fine for me. Crier doesn't have additional votes like Mayor and also he can't receive additional info in pms if he won't reveal who he is like Mayor and if he does reveal he will lose most of his new ability.

  17. #17

    Re: Crier vs Judge

    Quote Originally Posted by RufusPL View Post
    So back to Crier, what i think could really help this role and not change it's identity would be ability to speak anonymously also during the day so he can give town advice on the spot. Most of the time you need to act fast to for example prevent a random lynch or lynch based on wrong understanding of game mechanics, you can't wait till night to do this. Crier would gain ability to really lead the town, they would know gov is speaking to them so they would know they can trust him but "evil" roles wouldn't know who he is so they can't target him. And in terms of balance it looks perfectly fine for me. Crier doesn't have additional votes like Mayor and also he can't receive additional info in pms if he won't reveal who he is like Mayor and if he does reveal he will lose most of his new ability.
    Making a toggle to switch between Crier chat during the day & regular chat with the new daytime buttons doesn't sound difficult. I'm still apprehensive to giving Crier a new ability, but I think the suggestion overall seems solid and true to the flavor of the role. I'll have to think on it more.

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •