Register

User Tag List

Results 1 to 12 of 12
  1. #1

    Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    Lust for gold? Power? Or was he just born with a heart full of neutrality.

    Please note this is still iterative and is not final. We're still working out the options and doing analysis on shifts to the meta/balance. Any role that we present could still be cut before we lock down update 1.

    I have also included a small rationale behind what the role is meant to accomplish and the kinds of strategy they are meant to adopt.


    -Elector -- Neutral Evil

    Action: Move one player's vote to another player once per night.
    Options:


    1. 3 vote redirections (Default: ON)
    2. 4 vote redirections (Default: OFF)
    3. 1 night between redirections (Default: ON)
    4. Victim knows he has been rigged (Default: OFF)
    5. Can target self (Default: ON)



    Rationale: This role allows for another neutral to slowly change the outcome of the day votes and who's ability gets stronger as the game progresses. A player who has had their vote taken will still be able to vote but it will not add or subtract from the vote tally to put someone on trial or to inno/guilty - and at the same time the player who received the vote will show up as it counting for 2. Early game they can redirect votes to any other person which may make them the target of suspicion before giving themselves an extra vote in the later parts of the game. The overall number of votes doesn't change with this role (unlike Mayor). Currently in our test build, the elector can rig a mayor's votes (possibly going to change this to an option but its more interesting that governments have more threats outside judge... and that mayor with a more passive effect is more vulnerable than a Marshall who only gets votes on a certain day). With normal options, players may not even realize their vote isn't counting unless they pay attention as they will still be able to click vote - see in chat they have voted for someone but the number not increase. Trying to come up with dynamics that allow for sneakier play when playing a neutral -- and that does not require a certain voting style in the game set up to function. The Elector also needs to consider the chances of getting into a 1v1v1 scenario where they would be able to steal a vote and win the game - and saving a change for this. If no charge options are selected the Elector will not have a limit.

    -
    Posioner -- Neutral Killing

    Action: Poison a player who will die the following night.
    Options:


    1. Target Knows they're poisoned (Default: OFF)
    2. Target dies two nights later (Default: ON)
    3. Target dies three nights later (Default: OFF)
    4. Night Immune (Default: ON)*
    5. Poison bypasses immunity (Default: OFF)
    6. Doctors can heal poison (Default: ON)



    Rationale: While initially looking like a worse Serial Killer, The poisoner throws trackers off their trail by going to a persons house and them not immediately dying. Additionally, with default setups the person may not even be aware their time is limited. With alternate setups where people know they are poisoned it may force them to play differently or try to get a doctor to save them (assuming curable is on) which may take the protective roles away from saving other key targets. It also can dodge most immunities which will be much more relevant after the next discussion where we detail some of the immunity and immunity piercing changes we are looking to make in the update after the major first one. If no time options are selected the target will die the following night.
    *May change in subsequent updates/reworks of immunity system.
    Last edited by Elixir; June 12th, 2019 at 02:15 AM.
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  2. #2

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    I’m
    Hardcore wasted and I’m a tell you that elector is the dopest shit I’ve ever read.
    Minor concern here regarding being initially weak. But it’s ok for a role to have weakness.
    Changes makes sense because open use is imbalanced.
    Cool downs make sense because otherwise overpowered
    I’m not sure I like self targeting. Might need to further thinking on that.

  3. #3

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    --
    Elector looks like tons of fun. @damus the self targeting is important because the role can pretty much instate itself as the Mayor after some nights of being able to use it's ability. If ever used in conjunction with the Judge, it will be funny see someone voting twice or more during a court.


    ---
    The options for poisoner (these could also be outdated but I'm on my break at work lol) are actually:

    1. Target they're poisoned
    2. Target dies two nights later
    3. Target dies three nights later
    4. Invulnerable at night
    5. Poison bypasses immunity
    6. Doctors heal poison

    From a design aspect, poisoner the option for poisoner night immunity should not be there. I really like the role because it puts an emphasis on doctors and lookouts/detectives to help track down who was poisoned and when. It bypasses bodyguards, a role that otherwise directly counters killing roles -- and can have an impact on the game up to three nights after being lynched in some situations.

  4. #4

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damus_Graves View Post
    Ok but like. You control your own vote.
    So why self target again?
    I just don’t understand

    If you redirect votes. What’s the purpose of redirection your own vote outside WIFOM?
    I’m sorry I just don’t understand
    Suppose a mayor reveals (he now has 4 votes) and that night, you redirect them to a scummy-sounding townie to make him seem like an Elector.
    Alternatively you take votes from one player each night (or every other night) and then consolidate them together eventually, assuming you don't die.
    Different strategies.

  7. #7

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damus_Graves View Post
    Ok but like. You control your own vote.
    So why self target again?
    I just don’t understand

    If you redirect votes. What’s the purpose of redirection your own vote outside WIFOM?
    I’m sorry I just don’t understand
    self target is both sides of the coin, giving and receiving votes (think of the bus driver UI). Giving votes is obviously straight wifom but taking votes is what you'd want to do endgame.

    you can't target the same person twice with both actions because nothing happens
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  8. #8

  9. #9

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frinckles View Post
    Suppose a mayor reveals (he now has 4 votes) and that night, you redirect them to a scummy-sounding townie to make him seem like an Elector.
    Alternatively you take votes from one player each night (or every other night) and then consolidate them together eventually, assuming you don't die.
    Different strategies.
    See this is what is great about the iterative approach. I had always intended it to reset votes at the beginning of the next night because if you lose your vote permanently for the rest of the game you might feel useless/increase chance of quitting. Also can throw out the entire number of votes per person if the 0 votes people die, although I guess this is fine because mayor does it anyway -- this way you could end up making the DH the mayor over time. Lol.

    I think that could be a really interesting dynamic though... maybe we can add an option for vote reset every night and let hosts create setups around both?
    Last edited by Elixir; June 12th, 2019 at 02:40 AM.
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  10. #10

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    I *really* like Poisoner.

    Elector seems kinda OP and not fun from a town perspective. Voting during day is town's bread and butter. For example, I only give Judge in my save one court (with 4 votes, so it counts, but one nonetheless). However, I don't want you to scrap the role and I just want to add some input to make it fun from all sides.

    Have you considered:
    -Making it benign? (because being evil means they will clearly use it against town)
    -Making it blockable by protective?
    -Forcing Elector to lose his vote when he uses his ability? (Maybe giving someone two extra votes instead of one? This will give town something to look out for)
    -Making Elector's vote positive target unable to speak, so they can't influence the game just vote? (You are given more power, but you cannot tell anyone...)
    -Revealing Elector's identity to the vote positive target? (X has given you extra power)
    -Making Elector unable to win on his own, but only in tandem with an evil? (Seems like it'd be too easy to get solo Elector wins, Mafia would never trust one)

    Just some ideas.
    Last edited by lawson; July 11th, 2019 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #11

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    EDIT: Sorry I wrote a Book here.

    I like the Elector. He's not going to be able to do it every night, unless it's set up so he doesn't have a charge limit. Therefore he'd use it like a survivor using vests. Or when a marshal is waiting to reveal because possible judge.

    You don't want attention and you don't want to waste your power but you want to use it fast. So you have to balance, in a game with a marshal, you don't get the power to lynch anyone you want Unless you already stole their vote. Can you imagine a Marshal getting ready to lynch and they vote and the town sees a 0 Vote from the Marshal. Makes their power useless and gives town forced voting. But the Elector still only gets +1 vote. So they'd get 2. OR someone else would have that vote.

    Picture a game with a mayor, the mayor gets comfortable, they know they don't have to worry about dying for a few nights, but the mayor goes to vote the next day and lost all their power. OR their extra votes get demoted to 1. They go to vote someone they suspect and suddenly they can't. Then the Elector comes in and waits for a small enough number of required votes to make their power play or the elector gave that power away to someone and they were town aligned.
    -Side Note- Mayor should retain 1 vote so it looks like they were "Role Changed" by being converted or disguised. This is already a meta that people know and having elector do exactly this would cause suspicion even more than it already does. So people would be less hesitant to lynch a mayor that lost their votes.

    In the end game I see the elector being a valuable ally yet possible enemy against the Triad / Mafia but only in a 1v1v1 situation. So the Mafia/Triad would want to be leery about an Elector if there is a potential 1v1v1 coming up; however if it's 2 triad 1 elector 2 town. The triad wouldn't care about the elector as much, unless a triad is lynched. If a town is lynched then triad already win and so does elector. So there's a lot of wiggle room for the Elector to have some interesting end-game value for themselves and for town and triad.

    Say it's a 2 Town, Elector, 2 Triad - Lookout, Vigi, are the town that are left. They lynch the DH, and the Triad kill the Lo at night, and the Vigi shoots Enforcer. it's a game of Vigi vs Elector. Elector wins Solo.
    Same Scenario - They lynch Lookout, Vigi Shoots Informant, DH kills Vigi, it's Elector DH. Elector wins with Triad.
    Same Scenario - They lynch lookout, Vigi shoots Elector, (Elector is NI), DH kills VIGI. Informant still alive. Triad Win w/ Elector.
    Same Scenario - They lynch Informant, Vigi shoots Elector, DH Kills Lookout, - DH, VIGI, Elector. - Elector votes out DH - Vigi and Elector left. Elector wins SOLO.
    Same Scenario- They Lynch Informant, Vigi Shoots DH, DH hits Elector, Lookout Watches Elector, they Lynch DH Next Day, Then next day Elector Lynches VIGI - Elector Wins.

    Like that 5 person end-game would require 1 scenario for town to win and that's to lynch the Elector as soon as possible. So if they know there's and elector. Town needs to hunt for Elector during the day earlier on.

    So Elector could become really overpowered in the late game if they're just careless enough to get 2 or 3 votes from dead people and retain them. Or by being extremely careful and trying to abstain as much as possible.

    Their weakness is their achilles heel of wanting those votes for themselves. That paints suspicion on them and that there is an Elector in play; However, to counter this they give the votes to someone else but costs them a charge and they may not get those votes for the end game. So the biggest weaknesses are how they play and what happens during the game to paint suspicion on them.

    If they give the votes away, that person votes on a trial. The town sees this and votes to lynch that person instead. Those votes are now gone and 1 player is left with a 0 vote and 2 votes just went away. In a d2 lynch this can be extremely hard.

    If they give the votes to themselves, and decide to vote on something, they could get lynched early.

    If they take a vote, give it to themselves, but abstain, they've got an extra vote but their abstaining nature will cause people to be more suspicious of themselves and other afkers.

    Benign vs Evil. -
    - Benign Solo wins would be tougher, and they could be an asset or an enemy for town or mafia; however, mafia would likely want to eliminate them as fast as possible. With benign their role would be to just survive to the end of the game, and they could be haphazard with who they take votes from as long as they have enough to protect themselves from getting lynched. They could win with either Mafia or Town and would cause town to want them on their side instead of hunting them. Though to get a benign solo win they'd have to have their win-condition set to 1 town and them, where they win the tie for Score Screen since their power is in the Vote and not killing. Otherwise you have an impossible situation where they'd have to have town and triad kill each other.

    Whereas evil solo would be just situationally difficult but not impossible to do, and mafia would leave them alone mostly if they knew who they were, while town would be more likely to hunt for them than the DH on a lynching basis as early as possible. Because the Elector would destroy towns way of lynching other evils later in the game if the elector has their suspicions on Mafia. The town and mafia would be at the whim of the evil Elector due to them needing to convince someone is DH and provide multiple choices so the town doesn't get lynched.

    Town would want to focus Elector more than they'd want to get an SK over DH.

    So I think this role as it's suggested is a really well balanced role, though it can be powerful in the late game, the same could be said about triad or SK's who make it there and in my opinion that's alright. Especially with Immunity toggled and the talk about Immunity Piercing options. The choice between them being Evil or Benign would be something to be debated due to number of possibilities generated by each possible outcome.

  12. #12

    Re: Discussion 3: What Makes a Man turn Neutral?

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson View Post
    I *really* like Poisoner.

    Elector seems kinda OP and not fun from a town perspective. Voting during day is town's bread and butter. For example, I only give Judge in my save one court (with 4 votes, so it counts, but one nonetheless). However, I don't want you to scrap the role and I just want to add some input to make it fun from all sides.

    Have you considered:
    -Making it benign? (because being evil means they will clearly use it against town)
    -Making it blockable by protective?
    -Forcing Elector to lose his vote when he uses his ability? (Maybe giving someone two extra votes instead of one? This will give town something to look out for)
    -Making Elector's vote positive target unable to speak, so they can't influence the game just vote? (You are given more power, but you cannot tell anyone...)
    -Revealing Elector's identity to the vote positive target? (X has given you extra power)
    -Making Elector unable to win on his own, but only in tandem with an evil? (Seems like it'd be too easy to get solo Elector wins, Mafia would never trust one)

    Just some ideas.
    Thanks for dropping by and giving some dope suggestions Law. I'll definitely check back on these in the future.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% sure Elector is going to make some people rage at least initially. As people adjust and try to find the optimal playstyles with and against it, things will settle I think.
    Just to be clear, the Elector redirects any and all votes that one person has, to another. Either target (to or from) could be himself, a Mayor, Mafia, Jester -- whatever. How would people feel the next day if 8 (the Sheriff for example) had 2 votes? They'd probably opt to lynch him thinking he's a greedy Elector. If they believe him though, suddenly the bad guys have one less collective vote. Perhaps you take a vote from yourself and give it to someone else claiming that you've been rigged like how Auditors claim they're citizens day 2.

    Figuring out what limitations, such as charges or a night in between will take testing.

    @Elixir had an idea about some form of protection against redirecting votes. I think it'd add more depth to the game (and flavor) to let an investigative role do this such as Sheriff.

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •