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  1. #1

    Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    The first in a series of discussion threads on concepts or mechanics of Mafia
    Want some feedback on the current voting metagame in a few key areas. I've noticed a few things myself but just spurring discussion

    (these things aren't going to be changing anything in our first update but the next few discussion threads may be )

    1) Does anyone ever not use Majority + Trial.
    Anonymous ballot and straight majority are two other options I don't think really ever get used. The fact the options exist limit the design space on certain roles that can manipulate the voting sequence (such as the old Lawyer concept but we don't really need any more confirmable roles at this stage).

    2) the blackmailed vote spam thing seems to not really have been affected by the addition of the vote mute option as people are still watching for the vote number change. The only way this can really be stopped is for a vote removal which is way too strong of a buff to blackmailer. Linked into the above there could be some complex way to change it so there was no vote for the majority but a vote on the trial but even then that seems way to broken to me. Blackmailing is in a weird spot right now and I think it could use adjustments but I'm not certain where to push it

    3) The follow the vote leader thing of the Marshall and mayor seems to be a all in on one player meta that doesn't seem really fun for a lot of other people. Having one person try to complete a role list while engaging for that player takes away from the rest of the game - making the judge an important failsafe. Similar to when we intervened with the really shit spy meta when they could read pms, I've been toying with the idea of making a reverse option for the governments that they CANT read pms after they reveal. This is a pretty dramatic meta shift that Will shift the entire balance dynamic in favour of the judge however I think their presence will be less required and even less prevelant after a few more neutral evils join the game (cough Elector). I don't know how toxic the community thinks the follow the mayor meta is but in my view it could use some adjusting in the future. Tied into #1 it might make mayors out everyone on trial in order but then he entire town gets to hear everyone's claims and then it becomes a big discussion -- which also differentiates mayor from marshall.
    Last edited by Elixir; May 27th, 2019 at 01:26 PM.
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  2. #2

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    1)
    I pretty much only see the other vote options used when people are trying to be trolly IE: 8 triad 7 mafia setups. I don't think anybody will really care if they are removed. However, even in majority+trial the anonymous ballot gets used when there is a tie happening which is something to consider.

    2)
    Yea I don't really have any ideas to make it better.

    3)
    I think this is a pretty critical part of the sc2mafia gameplay vs. forum mafia gameplay. IMO follow the leader is just part of the mod. People hate when crier spawns as the town gov because they can't follow the leader. If you nerf marsh/mayors that way then people will just start PMing another reasonably confirmed town role (Eg: vet or vig with a kill and no counterclaims, bus driver with no counterclaim, jailor with 2+ kills, etc.). Eventually that trickle down the road sequence leads to you just disabling pms completely which is already an option in the game and one that I see the majority of people don't like.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  3. #3

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Idea for #2 : Make it so the Blackmailed person's vote is not visible to anyone, not even on the counter.
    Other idea : Make it so the Blackmailed person cannot change vote more than X times (2 would be a good spot imo). That would prevent spam; although it doesn't fully fix the issue, it would make it less of a big deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    His last words shall be remembered.

    “There is nothing more spacious than the church of God, because all the elect and the just of all ages comprise it.” – Pope Clement XI

    Amen

  4. #4

  5. #5

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by renegade View Post
    Why doesn't blackmailer also remove a players vote? or in the case of mayor, reduces vote count by one?
    To put it simply, because it would be op as hell. Denying a player's ability to talk is already pretty strong when you're in a scum team; denying chat and vote would be absolutely crazy, turning the player into a day zombie. I don't think I'm pushing too far if I'm saying that would cause a lot of ragequits.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    His last words shall be remembered.

    “There is nothing more spacious than the church of God, because all the elect and the just of all ages comprise it.” – Pope Clement XI

    Amen

  6. #6

  7. #7

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauntshaman View Post
    just make silencer deafer. the deafed can still talk and vote, but can't hear what others say
    I actually like that idea. Not as replacement, but generally as new role. It'd create an interesting meta with communication through votes and it'd be very easy for scum to fake.
    It wouldn't really feel powerful if you, as scum, were to actually roll it, similarly to the blackmailer, honestly I also don't even see how it by itself as a role would fix any problems like you are implying, but the impact on meta seems worth exploring to me.

  8. #8

  9. #9

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Back to the topic, ballot happens when a game reaches a stalemate. The usual setup wouldn't have it.
    Personally I really think one good way to increase the use of unconventional options like that would be additional save slots. I understand that'd require some effort to fit into the game's bank file, but at the end of the day you'd be opening people up to a lot more room for experimentation on their setups. Just having the option to choose between standard 8331 and something unconventional already makes people far more inclined to go through the effort of trying something new.
    Generic 8331 all the time is imo one problem the game is suffering from.

  10. #10

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Back to the topic, ballot happens when a game reaches a stalemate. The usual setup wouldn't have it.
    Personally I really think one good way to increase the use of unconventional options like that would be additional save slots. I understand that'd require some effort to fit into the game's bank file, but at the end of the day you'd be opening people up to a lot more room for experimentation on their setups. Just having the option to choose between standard 8331 and something unconventional already makes people far more inclined to go through the effort of trying something new.
    Generic 8331 all the time is imo one problem the game is suffering from.
    I believe he was only asking if the other voting options are used because he was wondering if they could be removed so as to allow for some roles that would only work with public votes (or at least, roles that change voting in any way would be very hard to deal with if they have to work for 3 different voting styles).
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  11. #11

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Anon ballot on day 3 and Marshall majority wouldn't change. I don't think it's bad for a role to have weaknesses or areas where they aren't as impactful - so that doesn't matter.

    the vote is the towns weapon so lowering the amount of votes require to lynch is a massive power swing for the organised minority - I doubt that kind of power will be put on the mafia teams ever. Even the neutral put forward (and neutrals normally are allowed to be a little more powerful) redirects the vote so the number of votes is technically the same.

    Deafen doesn't really thematically fit the blackmailer - interesting concept that can be used in future maybe. Besides the major point is they can't talk.

    Additional save slots are technically impossible unless either points/achievements or points/role wins are deleted from the game. The bank files aren't stable enough and the ability to edit multiple signatures will just cause it to break and reset.
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  12. #12

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post

    Additional save slots are technically impossible unless either points/achievements or points/role wins are deleted from the game. The bank files aren't stable enough and the ability to edit multiple signatures will just cause it to break and reset.
    Now I’m no expert but it’s my understanding that these limitations that used to be a problem were changed at some point. If we believe the guy in this thread: https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/de...on-current-sc2
    He seems to imply that for 15 players the game would run fine with 80 KB bank files which is way bigger than what we have (3 KB).
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  13. #13

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Now I’m no expert but it’s my understanding that these limitations that used to be a problem were changed at some point. If we believe the guy in this thread: https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/de...on-current-sc2
    He seems to imply that for 15 players the game would run fine with 80 KB bank files which is way bigger than what we have (3 KB).
    Yea that, and I'm pretty sure the bank isn't compressed right now. That'd further reduce its size and would help a bit in further lowering the already low number of bank hackers. You'd obviously still need to provide downwards compatibility for old banks, but once someone updated, or if it's just a new account, they wouldn't be able to edit their stuff easily anymore.

  14. #14

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Idea for #2 : Make it so the Blackmailed person's vote is not visible to anyone, not even on the counter.
    I was thinking the same thing. But man, that sounds like a pain to do.
    Last edited by Frinckles; May 28th, 2019 at 01:25 PM.

  15. #15

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Now I’m no expert but it’s my understanding that these limitations that used to be a problem were changed at some point. If we believe the guy in this thread: https://www.sc2mapster.com/forums/de...on-current-sc2
    He seems to imply that for 15 players the game would run fine with 80 KB bank files which is way bigger than what we have (3 KB).
    if we ever risk that it would be it's own update. I don't want to have to deal with thousands of wiped banks like the last time we tried putting more shit in there. If there has been optimisations we might take a look at it a while down the line but it's not a priority
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  16. #16

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    Idea for #2 : Make it so the Blackmailed person's vote is not visible to anyone, not even on the counter.
    Other idea : Make it so the Blackmailed person cannot change vote more than X times (2 would be a good spot imo). That would prevent spam; although it doesn't fully fix the issue, it would make it less of a big deal.

    We cant mismatch the "number of votes required to lynch" and the number next to someone's name. Its too finnicky and looks like a fucked UI so it has to change the votes to lynch which I don't want to do
    Photobucket in 2017
    Quote Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
    if you have elixir to contend with gl hf

  17. #17

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    #2 - Not sure how to remedy the situation outside of displaying a fake integer on the UI but that's gonna be complicated.
    I'd be open to testing it, but removing the player's ability to vote does seem extremely strong alongside being blackmailed.
    Related old thread; http://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/showth...e-day?p=432471

    #3 - Follow the Mayor/Marshall is just kind of the meta-game right now. It's just the fact that we have a Town Government stamped at the top of every save file; I imagine Crier would be in the same situation if it was 100% confirm-able as well. If we added more roles that fit Town Government and perhaps weren't able to receive PM's it might at least water down how often that dynamic appears.
    -----------
    On banks:

    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    if we ever risk that it would be it's own update. I don't want to have to deal with thousands of wiped banks like the last time we tried putting more shit in there. If there has been optimizations we might take a look at it a while down the line but it's not a priority
    It's possible, but there's a lot of cleaning up needed with the Variants/Options Menu in the first place. I think having two maybe three saves is acceptable but we can do a lot to avoid the need for those saves by simply replacing unused variants with standardized saves. I had planned on replacing the top two variants with 9-3-3/8-3-3-1 this update once roles are in a good spot.

    I haven't done a whole lot with bank files yet, but I know variables can be saved to them and accessed; Bank save weights for new roles seemed to work fine. After talking with some folks at SC2Mapster some weeks ago, I think the banks were indeed updated as @aamirus said (still client-side yuck.) I'm still in the process of learning what each number in the banks does, especially with Variants -- and there are a lot of numbers -- so it'll be a bit before I wanna tackle that. ^^;

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
    Yea that, and I'm pretty sure the bank isn't compressed right now. That'd further reduce its size and would help a bit in further lowering the already low number of bank hackers. You'd obviously still need to provide downwards compatibility for old banks, but once someone updated, or if it's just a new account, they wouldn't be able to edit their stuff easily anymore.
    The banks compress and decompress as far as I can see, that was available when DR made the map. There are some new tricks that I can do to reduce load-times and the overall size of the map, but I'm not doing those just yet.

    As long as the existing bank keys don't change, all bank files should be backwards-compatible. c:
    Last edited by Frinckles; May 29th, 2019 at 10:46 AM.

  18. #18

  19. #19

  20. #20

    Re: Discussion 1: The Voting Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Damus_Graves View Post
    have anonymous voting be the system when blackmailer is in game
    This is spicy. It'd revert when the blackmailer dies then? I'd be willing to try that out -- sounds very disruptive for the town in general but I like it. The only issue is that it could actually confuse some people as to whether there is still a blackmailer in the game or if they're just playing a save with that option selected. Of course they could just hover over the options to see, but who reads anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Damus_Graves View Post
    Mayor cannot PM or receive PM
    We'd probably want this for Marshall as well. It reduces the overall power of the follow-the-leader mechanic for sure; People would begin claiming mayor and requesting PM's before-hand -- only able to get so much information before needing to reveal.

    I don't think it improves the quality of life for an already tough role like Mayor and it'd make Marshall almost court-like chaos, but it'd be interesting to try out.

    Edit: I'm Wit it.
    Last edited by Frinckles; June 10th, 2019 at 05:49 AM.

 

 

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