Register

User Tag List

Results 1 to 19 of 19
  1. #1

    Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame



    Trafficker (Mafia) / Smuggler (Triad)
    Role: Mafia/Triad Deception

    Abilities:
    -Each night, change the firearm used by your target to disguise any attacks they make during that night (choose between mafia shots ring out, vigilante's high-caliber gun, veteran's fragmentation grenades and military-grade weaponry, and jailor/interrogator's execution rifle)

    Save settings:
    -Default ability can be used 2 times
    -Default usage of ability can be used on any target (not just Mafia/Triad teammates)
    -Default usage of ability on a non-killing role or a role that did not attack still uses up 1 use of the ability
    -Default functionality allows Trafficker/Smuggler to choose which weapon to equip target by typing "-jailor" "-vigilante" "-veteran" or "-mafia" at night; if none selected, it will be random

    Possible Crimes:
    -Trespassing (after targeting someone with ability)
    -Solicitation (after a targeted role uses the trafficked/smuggled weapon to attack)

    Other notes:
    -Killing roles that do not use a firearm cannot be re-equipped; this includes all Neutral Killing roles (Arsonist, MM, SK) as well as Masons that kill members of the Cult
    -Equipping a target counts as a visit - this makes it impossible to frame a veteran that has alerted, and also exposes the Trafficker/Smuggler to MM sprees, arsonist burns, etc.
    -Equipping a target occurs before any attacks - thus being killed does not prevent the weapon re-equipment from taking place

    Analysis:
    This is a powerful deception role with the goal of introducing a degree of distrust in night sounds, which are currently 100% accurate. In the same way that the Framer/Forger is able to discredit investigative roles, the Trafficker/Smuggler is a powerful weapon that can help disguise teammates or discredit town killing roles. In the current meta, town killing roles are extremely powerful in their ability to confirm themselves with near-certainty, and this adds the ability to disrupt them in a way that is currently only somewhat possible for a Neutral (Witch).

    While introducing a role that can tamper with night sounds can seem like a major meta shift, there is significant counterplay as investigative roles can track the Trafficker/Smuggler with ease since they visit in the same way that a Framer/Forger does, and can also be rerouted by Bus Drivers. In general though, the purpose here is to arm the Mafia/Triad with some additional functionality in their arsenal (whether directly when the role is assigned, or indirectly just by the possibility that it can exist and towns are suspicious of night sounds) in the common 8331/933 meta where I feel town killing roles are exceptionally strong. In my opinion, I think the introduction of these roles would actually be strongest when they are not assigned, as a Disguiser/Informant would probably be stronger Deception role in most cases. The real power of this role is its indirect ability to cause the town to question whether or not a particular night sound was real.

    ♥ ♥ ♥

    Tracker (Town)
    Role: Investigative, Power

    Abilities:
    -Each night, choose a target to tag with a scent, or unleash the hounds - similar to Arsonist's douse & burn mechanic
    -When you unleash the hounds, all targets that were previously tagged will have their locations revealed, as well as others that visit
    -Unleashing the hounds wipes the scent off all tagged targets and targets must be retagged to be tracked again

    Save settings:
    -Default ability usage does not notify the target if they are tagged
    -Default ability usage does notify targets if they have been tracked by the hounds
    -Default ability usage is limited to 2 unleashing of hounds (tagging is unlimited)
    -Default ability usage will reveal all tagged targets as well as those that share the same house (similar to MM mechanics)
    -Default ability usage of unleashing the hounds will produce a night sound that everyone can hear ("You hear barking and howling echoing through the night.")

    Possible Crimes:
    -Trespassing (after tagging targets)
    -Disturbing the Peace (after unleashing the hounds)

    Other notes:
    -The exact revealing system when the hounds are unleashed is in the form of the MM house targeting system, e.g. if Bob, and Jessica were tagged, the results would be: "Bob was at home. (Bob was tagged, and did not visit anyone). Sarah was at Bob's house. (Sarah visited a tagged target). Jessica was at Robert's house. (Jessica was tagged, and visited someone). Robert was at home. (Robert was visited by a tagged target). Now if MM death shows Jessica, we know that Robert spreed at his own house (as no one else was at that house to kill Jessica).

    Analysis:
    This is an extremely complex investigative role that combines the "wildfire" mechanics of the Arsonist with the "house location targeting system" of the MM, except in a town-aligned form. The goal is to introduce a very high skill-cap town investigative role which can provide the town with a massive informational advantage if the tracker is able to tag and track (aka douse and burn) at the right time. This introduces the same risk-reward profile that an arsonist faces, as their ability becomes increasingly powerful as it ramps up over time, but they also risk having their tagged (aka doused) targets die before they can be activated. Also, if a Tracker dies before they are able to unleash the hounds at least once, they will provide the town with zero information.

    The inspiration for the tracker role is stemming from the fact that most town investigative roles have abilities that are fairly one-dimensional - while players can do a lot in terms of analyzing, the actual usage of abilities is pretty simple and not particularly exciting. The most dynamic investigative role, Coroner, is currently of very limited use as Clue Variant game mode is almost never played, and in current meta is fairly weak. As a result, investigative roles, in general, lack the sort of "huge play" potential that other roles such as BD, vigi, judge, jailor, arso, etc. have, and this gives a reason for players to get excited about playing an invest role that can be very powerful if played well, or useless if they are unfortunate/unskilled (although not as detrimental as a jailor/vigi that kills towns, for example).

    Also, this role is one that is far less disrupted by other roles such as Bus Driver, Witch, Framer, Beguiler/Deceiver, etc. which current invest roles are plagued by (and is one of the reasons, I believe, that investigative roles can feel laborious to play). It adds a role that is much more consistent in some dimensions (reliability of information and resilience from being disrupted by other roles) but sacrifices consistency in other dimensions (the feast-or-famine arsonist mechanic).
    Last edited by Aero; April 11th, 2019 at 06:09 PM.

  2. #2

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    these are the first roles suggested in a long long while that aren't complete shit.

    100% recommend further discussion.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  3. #3

  4. #4

  5. #5

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    I really like Trafficker/Smuggler. This would add a whole new dimension of non-confirmed information into the game.
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    I wanted to buy a kinder egg in usa. But apparently they arn't sold because they are too dangerous.
    So I bought two assault rifles instead.
    Spoiler : LOGIC :
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    ACCEPT THE ONE TRUE FAITH

  6. #6

  7. #7

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Idk it seems like a more powerful version of the janitor, given it can fulfill the same role but also do more.

    In fm it makes sense but in the mod where the town SHOULD have a gigantic advantage but due to dumbness somehow a 933 is seen as balanced... this role would shift things too far into mafia favor imo
    Last edited by aamirus; April 12th, 2019 at 01:59 AM.
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  8. #8

  9. #9

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    I mean the only this could be added is by modifying an existing role to include this roles ability. Would suggest some role like Mafioso or maybe Blackmailer
    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Polish my nuts and serve me a milkshake. Anyone who uses scum syntax will be lynched.

  10. #10

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    Idk it seems like a more powerful version of the janitor, given it can fulfill the same role but also do more.
    They are functionally different in a few ways.

    - Janitor permanently removes information via sanitizing, information which can never be recovered and permanently introduces 1 gap in grave count each time a dead player is sanitized
    - Trafficker/Smuggler temporarily corrupts information, which players can analyze via investigative leads or when the Trafficker/Smuggler is revealed

    - Janitor disrupts role counting by preventing a dead role from being revealed - sanitizing a town versus sanitizing a teammate that is visiting a potentially dangerous target conceals the grave count
    - Trafficker/Smuggler disrupts role counting of living roles by making confirmations via night sounds prone to corruption - re-equipping a town to frame them versus re-equipping a teammate to disguise them

    - Janitor only impacts the game when role is assigned and ability is activated
    - Trafficker/Smuggler always impacts the game just by the possibility of its existence, similar to how spy always impacts Mafia/Triad communication until the role is killed or ruled out of possibility

    So as you can see, I have designed it with a few gives and takes to make them different in unique ways. The goal isn't to replicate something that already exists, but rather to add diversity with mechanics that alter the game in different dimensions.
    ¤ Good lawyers worry about facts. Great lawyers worry about their opponents. ¤

  11. #11

  12. #12

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by sc2aero View Post
    - Trafficker/Smuggler always impacts the game just by the possibility of its existence, similar to how spy always impacts Mafia/Triad communication until the role is killed or ruled out of possibility
    .
    This was the part I was saying feels like it creates too much of a balance shift in mafia’s favor from the current meta. It would be hard to trust any vig vet or jailor claim anymore, and harder in general to figure out what happened last night

  13. #13

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    This was the part I was saying feels like it creates too much of a balance shift in mafia’s favor from the current meta. It would be hard to trust any vig vet or jailor claim anymore, and harder in general to figure out what happened last night
    Feigning those killing roles, especially jailor and veteran, would be much harder and riskier than you're implying. If the victim's lw contradicts the kill sound, the trafficker could immediately expose their existence.

    Furthermore, arbitrary kill sounds would still generally be trusted out of sheer practicality, anyway. The effect on the meta would be more subtle imo.

    It'd be a very situational role.

  14. #14

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    If town is bad, town is bad. The setups are always townsidedand they lose.

    I say, sucks to suck.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  15. #15

  16. #16

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    If town is bad, town is bad. The setups are always townsidedand they lose.

    I say, sucks to suck.
    +1 haha
    Quote Originally Posted by blinkskater View Post
    Polish my nuts and serve me a milkshake. Anyone who uses scum syntax will be lynched.

  17. #17

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    If this ends up happening, this role would most likely be Excluded by some hosts to avoid having setups stacked against town, since your average mod player can't win a heavily town-sided setup as Town. I don't think it'll be that much of an issue, and trust hosts on this point. (maybe i have too much faith in humanity though)
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperJack View Post
    I wanted to buy a kinder egg in usa. But apparently they arn't sold because they are too dangerous.
    So I bought two assault rifles instead.
    Spoiler : LOGIC :
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    ACCEPT THE ONE TRUE FAITH

  18. #18

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Hi Aero! Thanks for posting two interesting role suggestions. I'll explain what I like and dislike about both and how they might be improved and added in. It's worth noting that, while I don't think anything you've mentioned would be out the scope for what could be implemented, I may need to touch on certain bases when it comes to the game engine.

    Let's start with the Trafficker / Smuggler.

    What I like:
    -Sounds (get it?) like a very interesting take on a deception role.
    -Diversified Triad/Mafia even more.
    What I don't like:
    First up a little context:
    There are three options for how the night goes in Mafia;
    Night Sequence(Descriptions+Sound)
    Descriptions (Death Descriptions only)
    Traditional (Sound effects + death descriptions removed)

    -The first issue is that this role is not possible the latter two night options. Easy fix is to disable the role from generating if one of these night options is being used.

    -Inconsistencies in eventual outcomes of the night sequence:
    The death description will always reflect the method of killing regardless of sound. Even if you make a jailor sounds like a vigilante, the corpse would still say "executed in jail cell." Of course this could be modified to reflect the chosen sound, but I would need to add a check like "Trafficked=true/false" to each instance of death description and if true set it to a death description array linked to the sound chosen by smuggler. It's possible, just very involved.

    -Usefulness
    It's likely that this role's usefulness will be almost exclusively to mask the sound a GF/DH, Interro/Kidnapper would make at night with each of it's two uses. Sounds neat but outside of creating a large amount of early game chaos the role cannot do much without information. You'd need an Administrator or Consigliare to give accurate information regarding who is a town killing in order to 'sound-frame' someone. That's assuming the Trafficker / Consigliare live long enough, a spy doesn't thwart the effort AND the town killing role actually chooses to kill that night. Although the role could definitely throw the town for a loop early on, the amount of kills town power roles get generally would eventually confirm those roles. Finally, it's ability to fake-claim (Consort as Escort for example) is extremely limited compared to other Mafia/Triad roles.


    I like the mechanic of manipulating sound but I don't feel like this iteration of it is useful enough to justify it's inclusion but this is a discussion not a judgement call. If you disagree I'd love to further the conversation.

    As an aside, I left out Disguiser/Informant intentionally -- I don't want to give myself a headache. :[

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Up next Tracker.

    U.T.H. = Unleash The Hounds

    What I like:
    -Now this is an investigative role that sounds fun. Great job applying Arsonist mechanics to an investigative role, very cool.
    -Hey, it's more variety. Investigator sucks anyway. :P
    What I don't like:
    -Reliability/Survivability
    Since I'm a sick, evil person, my saved generally are 9331 standard saves with no night immunity for any roles. I dislike night immunity immensely because I feel like it takes away a killing role's ability to actually function. TBH I think it was pretty balanced until I realized Arsonists would be gunned down before they ever had a chance to actually do their stuff so I had to enable NI for them exclusively. Same concept applies here; If you have an investigative role that has no protection and requires at least one night to setup their usefulness could be compared to a coroner killed night 2. Oftentimes anti-fun.

    Another point is how much is actually getting done. Let's take a Sheriff and a Tracker who both live for 4 days and then die.
    Night One - Sheriff: Checks (gets info) // Tracker: Scent
    Night Two - Sheriff: Checks (gets Info) // Tracker: Scent (No info)(Or could Unleash Hounds for 1 info)
    Night Three - Sheriff: Checks (gets Info) // Tracker: Scent (No info)(Or could Unleash Hounds for 2 info)
    Night Four both killed.

    As you can see this presents two issues:
    On a night-to-night basis it's outpaced by conventional investigative roles.
    Releasing the hounds will only grant a large influx of information under the assumption those people are still alive.

    OKAY NOW THAT WE GOT THAT OUT OF THE WAY.

    My solution:

    Why not both? -- Let the Tracker place a scent and unleash the hounds at the same time. This allows them to keep up with the pace of a conventional investigative role while at the same time let them risk getting an influx of information. This is balanced by your concept of limited UTH (2.)

    I even made a pic.

    https://imgur.com/a/qpwBg35

    I have no issues with making both a Town Action A button and B button clickable in the same night action. This role is dope. It has my thumbs up!
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Hope I contributed something to the conversation. If I missed something or wasn't clear please correct me. Thanks again for the post.
    Last edited by Frinckles; April 19th, 2019 at 03:20 PM.

  19. #19

    Re: Role Suggestions: Adding More Dimensions to Information Metagame

    Thanks for the reply, Frinkles! I will keep this short and focus on the higher level principles since I think the minutiae can be tweaked and adjusted as needed.

    Trafficker/Smuggler: I should clarify that my original idea would be that each role actually replaces the weapons used by the target, which gets reflected in both the death description as well as the night sounds. I use "night sounds" interchangeably because there are some situations where someone can somewhat confirm themselves (e.g. vigi) even when they don't kill someone (and thus leave no death description). This would require that we adjust the jailor's text to "he/she was shot by an executioner's rifle" to make trafficking/smuggling a jailor kill believable.

    With that being said, I am not sure if you would still lean toward feeling that the role is too weak. I admit that it's irrelevant in Clue mode which relies solely on Coroners, so the role should be disabled in the same way that Spy should be disabled in a game without Mafia/Triad.

    I would also say that this role is most powerful when it is not rolled. The *possibility* of a Trafficker/Smuggler combined with another Mafia/Triad Deception role (e.g. Informant) would be more powerful in the same way a Spy is most powerful when a different Town Power is rolled, but the possibility still makes Mafia/Triad scared to really communicate in night chat while the existence of a Spy is still possible.

    -----

    Tracker: To clarify, the Tracker is able to generate investigative leads on multiple players per tag. For example, suppose we have 5 players.

    1 Tracker
    2 Doctor
    3 Sheriff
    4 Godfather
    5 Janitor
    6 Jester

    N1: Tracker tags 2. 4 and 5 kill and sanitize 6.

    N2: 4 and 5 visit to kill & sanitize 2. 2 visits 3 to heal 3. 3 is AFK. Tracker unleashes the hounds. This is what tracker sees:

    You unleash your hounds to track your targets. 2 visited 3 last night. 2 was also visited by 4 and 5. Tracker now knows 2/3 Mafia since they were the only ones to visit 2.

    The tracker actually combines both the power of a Lookout and Detective on each scented target once the hounds are unleashed. This means in 2 nights the Tracker actually generated 3 data points.

    Pros:
    -Combines both the power of a Lookout and Detective (similar to Agent/Vanguard)
    -Can track a huge amount of targets and visits with multiple scents active to map out entire chunks of the night (similar to how Arson can annihilate the whole town if multiple doused visits line up)
    -Much more resistant to disruption from witch or misinformation from friendly bus driver

    Cons:
    -More "setup" required than Agent/Vanguard or other investigative roles for that matter
    -If scented targets are killed or lynched before the hounds are unleashed, zero leads are generated, similar to how Arson needs their doused targets to stay alive to spread flames
    -The number of times (I am suggesting 2) that the hounds can be unleashed are limited, which means they can generate more leads than traditional investigative roles in a burst, but not repeatedly

    With that being said, perhaps placing scents and unleashing at the same time can still be done, since you are limited by the number of times you can unleash the hounds anyway. It comes down to balancing the power of the role to an appropriate "setup cost."

    -----

    I think that covers off the higher level ideas, the more specific implementation/details/balance is up to you/everyone else!

    Last edited by Aero; April 24th, 2019 at 05:15 PM.
    ¤ Good lawyers worry about facts. Great lawyers worry about their opponents. ¤

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •