Save Balancing #1: Gang Wars

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  1. #1

    Lightbulb Save Balancing #1: Gang Wars

    So I recently hosted a 9-3-3 save that is done like this:

    Mafia Support
    Mafia Support

    Town Government
    Town Power
    Town Killing
    Town Protective
    Town Protective
    Town Investigative
    Town Investigative
    Town Random
    Town Random

    Dragon Head
    Triad Deception
    Triad Deception

    The settings are in the spoilers:
    Spoiler : Town :

    - Town Government
    o Mayor
     Loses extra votes if role changes
     Vote is 4
     Canít be healed
    o Marshall
     2 group executions
     4 executions per group
    o Crier
    o Citizen (excluded)
     One vest
     Win tie with Mafia/Triad

    - Town Power
    o Veteran (also Killing)
     3 alerts
     Ignore invulnerability
    o Spy
     Can see all Mafia/Triad targets
     Can see Mafia/Triad kill
    o Bus Driver (also Prot)
     Can target self
    o Jailor (also Killing)
     3 executions

    - Town Killing
    o Veteran (also Power)
     3 alerts
     Ignore invulnerability
    o Jailor (also Power)
     3 executions
    o Bodyguard (also Prot)
     Ignore invulnerability
     Canít be healed
    o Vigilante
     4 kills

    - Town Protective
    o Bus Driver
     Can target self
    o Bodyguard
     Ignore invulnerability
     Canít be healed
    o Doctor
     Knows if target is attacked
    o Escort
     Cannot be roleblocked
     Detects block-immune target

    - Town Investigative
    o Sheriff
     Detects Mafia/Triad
    o Investigator
     Detects exact role
    o Detective
     Ignore detection immunity
    o Lookout
     Ignore detection immunity
     Can target self

    - Town Random
     Exclude Govt
     Exclude Power

    Spoiler : Mafia :

    - Mafia Killing
    o Mafioso
    o Godfather
     Night immune
     Canít be roleblocked
     Immune to detection
     Can kill without Mafioso

    - Mafia Support
    o Blackmailer
     Becomes Mafioso if alone
    o Kidnapper (also Mafia Killing)
     Becomes Mafioso if alone
     Can kidnap Mafia members
     Unblockable Kill
    o Consort
     Becomes Mafioso if alone
     Canít be roleblocked
     Detects block-immune target
    o Consigliere
     Replaces Godfather
     Detects Exact Role
     Becomes Mafioso if alone
    o Agent
     Becomes Mafioso if alone
     2 nights between shadowings

    Spoiler : Triad :

    - Triad Killing
    o Enforcer
    o Dragon Head
     Night immune
     Canít be roleblocked
     Immune to detection
     Can kill without Enforcer

    - Triad Deception
    o Informant (also Triad Killing)
     Cleans targetís role
     Becomes Enforcer if alone
    o Forger
     Becomes Enforcer if alone
     Immune to detection
    o Incense Master
     Becomes Enforcer if alone
     3 cleans
    o Deceiver
     Becomes Enforcer if alone
     Can hide 4 times
     Target is notified
     Can hide behind Triad

    Spoiler : Save Settings :

    Base Day length: 1.0 min to 6.0 min
    o Discussion Time: 0.5 min to 3.0 min
    - Trial Time: 0.5 min to 2.0 min
    o Trial Type: Majority Trial
    o Defense phase? Yes
    o Pause day? Yes

    - Day 1: Day w/o Trial
    - Base Night Length: 0.5 min to 2.0 min
    - Night Type: Night Sequence
    Last Wills on
    Choose Names on

    The idea here is to have the two organized factions actually go off against each-other, and the town.
    The list itself is a visual of the save in the nutshell: two small yet specialized factions, with the town in the crossfire.

    However, after a bit more research, and one test-game, I notice that mafia has a significant edge. This is because support roles are more powerful.

    So there are multiple ways to balance this save, and I am wondering which one would be best

    Size Changes
    1. 2 Mafia, 9 Town, 4 Triad
    2. 4 Mafia, 7 Town, 4 Triad
    3. 2 Mafia, 10 Town, 3 Triad
    4. 2 Mafia, 11 Town, 2 Triad

    Composition Changes
    1. Mafia and Triad have one support and one deception role
    2. Mafia and Triad have two random roles
    3. Town gets a confirmed marshall

    And no I'm probably not gonna add in neutrals unless there is a good argument for adding them in when it comes to balance, because neutrals may go against the spirit of the save

  2. #2

    Re: Save Balancing #1: Gang Wars

    my thoughts: mafia and triad should both have deception + support. 2 supports ist stronger than 2 deception, so triad is weaker than mafia.

    in general i think it will be hard town for town to win this. a lot is based on who mafia / triad kills the first nights, but worst case there are only 5 town left day 3. while this is true for any standard 9-3-3 with mafia and neutrals, in your save you have 2 closed fractions opposing town, and you should suspect them to vote "better" and more consequently against town.

    on the other hand: the fact there are no neutral is a huge help for town. any invest claim can trusted, no chance for exec or jester. also if there is a mafia/triad claiming invest, he would never try to get a town lynched.
    you can put in an any random for 1 town random, mafia/triad exlduded, and high spawn chance for town. this way exec/jester would still be possible, 15% spawn chance are enough.

    other thoughts: escort detecting rb immune should be off. imo an escort should not be able to detect the gf/dh. in your save there are 2 potential targets, not just 1 like in a standard 9-3-3.

    marshall with 2 group executions a 4 players is ridiculous overpowerd. any ok player will win this game alone. you can have 8 player executed by day 3, you just need 1-2 confirmed roles and protection for 1 night.

  3. #3

  4. #4

    Re: Save Balancing #1: Gang Wars

    Investigator exact role is ridiculously OP it should be either preset role or changed to crimes, leaving % chance for such a strong role is just retarded. Marshall needs to be changed to 1-4, 2-2 or 2-3 atleast. Crier should be also excluded from gov since this role has no impact on game comparing to mayor/marshall. I would also consider changing DH/GF to Enforcer/Mafioso or disabling invulnerability and i agree Escort shouldn't detect rb immune i also think it should be even excluded from prots (town random only) since this role isn't protecting anything. Agent/Vanguard should be able to work every night if u set Consigliere/Administrator to exact role, just what's the point of having Agent if u can have Consig who does everything better? Also Consigliere/Administrator replacing GF/DH is OP in my opinion especially if they are night immune. If u change setup to Mafia Support+Mafia Deception and Triad Support+Triad Deception i would also decrease Janitor/Incense Master usage to 2, 6 uses possible is just too much.

  5. #5

  6. #6

    Re: Save Balancing #1: Gang Wars

    You should definitely make the red and blue factions each have a support and deception.

    And if the mod didn't have that mechanic where power mafia roles turned into mafiosos when there's no godfather, I'd say replace the godfathers as well.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)



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