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  1. #101

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    A lot has happened while I was sleeping on here... First of all, I'll do the clean-up of established and proven facts that are being debated.

    First of all:
    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    It proves me right. Go read Auckmids first post in his sign up page. "game won't start till later to avoid conflict with other sfm"
    Because then people would unsign, since the signs are the same for the other S-FMs. And if they were to stay in both, starting it would kill activity of AT LEAST one game, if not both.
    Of course, it is possible to start it, on paper. It works, signs are there! But if it happens, games won't have activity because the SAME people will be on two games (and three threads, in this specific case). So what will happen is that games won't be enjoyable for most players, and it is literally the system's job to make games: 1) played and 2) fun (that's the short version).


    Second point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    Funny enough, I see your accusations as baseless lol you are just assuming it wont work without a large player base, but I dont see what the difference would be. Games will still be signed for, the only difference is there will occasionally be a larger pool of games to sign for. And if there are no signups, then FM staff should step in an help the section by hosting a game or finding a host.
    You haven't been around long enough to see how the queue is busted against both players and hosts. Nothing kills site activity more then 5 games in a row that no one wanted to play, while the hosts waiting for a month get bored of waiting and are no longer interested in hosting lol

    Why would there be no filling if there were more signups?? I dont understand that logic. And past the first week, it's not like the signup subforum would have a large amount of threads. You say we are too small for a system like that, but the small community will also create less signups than a large community, making the system manageable for any size of community.
    I have been here long enough, and have played enough games, on enough different sites, spectated these, to know what a system's goal is, and to know which consequences it has. I was one of the few people who kept the site and the signups going, when there was no moderation... so your discredit is denied. This is supposed to be an honest debate, I would like it to remain one.

    This is answered by the answer to this. It's pretty simple: a large majority of players don't multigame. Therefore, we can see each player as a value of one, that goes on only one signup. So, if we have 1 setup for 14 players, for example, and we have a playerbase of 20, in general. There is always at least one person who is busy because real life, so let's say 19. The 14P setup will be full in a short time, and people will play and enjoy it. Then, we put a 10P setup (example again), and the dead, and the people who didn't sign for the 14P can sign for the 10P, and everyone is happy, plays a game, etc. If there is a stronger demand in hosting, people can still post their signups, so people can STILL sign and plan their stuff, but there's one game that starts first, and there's no issue. However, if there are 5 games free at the same time, it's chaos, people don't know where to sign, and setups take years to fill. It's not an assumption, it's simple math: unless one setup is really GREAAAT and everyone wants to play it over others, which doesn't happen often (therefore you can't base a system on that), the signs will be spread over the 5 signups that are open, therefore none of them will fill before a while. Of course, it wouldn't always be like this; but it would OFTEN be. Would it be the end of the site? I don't know. It could be, if the scenario I put there happens too much. And the advantage of this system, which is more choice in setups, is minimal, since there is ALREADY choice by just signing for what you want to sign for, since there are more than 1 signups, now. There's a reason we aren't rushing it: it would harm the game flow and/or the game quality, and that is an absolute.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    MM, you would be content with nothing changing it seems. But legit there is only 1 person posting in here other than you that thinks the system is a good system lol. Doesnt that tell you something?

    Maybe you can tell us how we can improve the current system? You suggested we build on it, but dont really offer suggestions on that.
    There is more than one person, we have Ganelon, and we have Gyrlander who earlier said this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gyrlander View Post
    I believe capitalism is a great idea. There have been instances in which I didn't like the current setup and just had to wait for it to be over. With capitalism, I could choose from a variety of setups and wouldn't have to wait. UNLESS we don't have a enough big playerbase. That would be one of the issues.

    We need more people if we choose capitalism.
    Capitalism is uncertain, risky; in fact, it's like the stock market, to take your capitalism image back. If we want a site that will last, we don't want to just gamble it.

    Now, I don't say I want no change at all. I want to improve what we have... which brings to the next point.

    That's scummy... I already did that several days ago lol, and I keep doing it.
    Spoiler : My suggestions, aka The Utopia :
    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    This is my take on things, and I cannot claim to know the goals of every person who has created an hosting system, of course. However, this is a good place to start.


    What are the aims of every single hosting system, and more specifically, what did they want to be?

    - A system that only brings quality games, and encourages improvement of the site's meta, with minimal encroachment on both host's and player's freedom.
    - A system that organizes setups, which means that the setups need to be put in correct time (not two 20 players games at once if the playerbase is 25, this kind of stuff). It also means that setups need to be approved, and a contact must be made with moderation in order to have signups going.
    - As a continuation of the first aim, a system that rewards good hosts, good plays, and involvement in the community.

    In other words: a system that keeps games going (quantity), and that improves the game experience over time.



    Welcome to the Kingdom of Utopia.


    This is how setups are managed, in this great kingdom. From the creation of the setups to the completion of games.


    - Someone posts a setup in the Setup Workshop. The thread is open, and since the description of the Workshop encourages people to give their input, saying how it is useful for the both hosts and players to have more input for fun games, people comment on the thread and give ideas.

    - The setup is ready for review by FM Staff! On a sticky thread in the Workshop, the author of the setup posts a message, optionally with a mention to staff members, saying that the setup is ready for review, since the author feels it is fun and balanced: finished.

    - An FM staff member reviews the setup, discussing the adjustments that need to be done, just like the current system. The thread is still open to discussion, and everyone can still contribute to the setup.

    - The setup is approved, and the author of the setup contacts the staff to know when they may post signups.

    - Signups are posted, fill, and the game starts.

    - Once the game ends, if it has been successful (no major balance issue discovered while playing the game, or similar things), the setup will go in a subsection of the Workshop: the Approved S-FMs. They will they be free to be rehosted, and the only requirement is to contact staff to know when signups can be posted.


    *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


    There is a Ladder, that lasts for a determined amount of games (10-12). The point attribution system is strongly inspired by the recent talks about this matter, I just reworded ideas because I found them really good.

    - Hosts will gain 2 points, without restriction on the number of times this can be applied.
    - Losers will gain 1 point.
    - Winners of each game will receive points equal to the amount of players divided by the amount of winners.
    - At the end of the season (when the game slot of the season is filled, and that the game is played and over), each player will earn a bonus based on their win percentage. A 100% win rate will result in a 100% point bonus, a 50% win rate will result in a 50% point bonus, etc.


    The Ladder is a way to encourage serious, competitive, and sports-like play. Hosts may opt out of the Ladder if they wish to have a more casual game; FM Staff may also choose to approve a game for non-ladder only if it is deemed playable for fun, but not suitable for ladder.
    This goes in the mindset of the first aim.


    *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


    In the same mindset, awards are given to people who have accomplished something special. For example, very liked hosts, people who continously give good setup suggestions (not sure how that would work, those are just suggestions), or people who write approved game theory (outside of games, in the FM discussion). The award system already has a Recommend Award thing, and it already exists! It's a great way to motivate people to do things, whatever those things are.


    *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



    I hope that you appreciated your travel to the Kingdom of Utopia! Feel free to leave feedback on this.

    There you go. It's based on what a system needs to have, it's explained and all.
    As you can see, it's inspired by the current system, without being the current state of the site. It's what I mean by "not throwing the current system in the garbage pin".
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  2. #102

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Yes. Focus on fixing/cleaning up the website so new people will want to come play here. Then addressing a system based off the communities needs is what the best course of action would be. Rather than trying to "plan" for that to happen and predict what would be best. Doin things backwards here! xD
    Exactly: we need to have more people so we can consider all options with the community's "full" form, or at least a status that is close to it.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  3. #103

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptonic View Post
    That's so vague, though. What exactly needs to be fixed to encourage new users? We need suggestions here lol
    This, right here:
    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Sent this to Voss awhile ago and also went into some detailed conversation about each points. also I talked with superjack about a lot of this and we were going to go forward with it. There is a lot more but that requires more digging for posts lol so here is just a quick post of it


    Site Changes Phase 1
    - Clean up the homepage, removing staff names from every damn line and finding a more condensed way to display them (such as just on the bottom of each section)
    - Implement a new ISO system, one closely replicating the one used on MafiaUniverse.
    - Implement a 'clock overlay' that can be toggled on and off on the top left corner during active games. the timer countdown is controlled by the Host/thread creator and can be edited at any time.
    __optional : players can toggle it on or off at any time (just on their UI)
    -Clean up the staff. There does not need to be 50 staff members with 30 different colors all over the place. clear outlines of who is the current staff.

    phase 2
    - Start to declutter some of the threads. There is like 500 things stickied on each of the individual topics, a lot irrelevant now.
    - Clean up all these tutorials, how to's, do this, do that, threads. implement a clean thread of useful tutorials.
    - Create an easy to find section for rules.
    - Update the wiki and terminology sections
    - Create a feeling of a separate section in each category. right now with the current system, this is something that sc2 lacks that sc1 had. ill try to explain this better...


    : How moderation needs to be managed
    There needs to be a careful balance to authority and punishment. Punishment should not be done publicly (unless extreme circumstances). a moderators presence alone can present issues, but usually only if their authority is present with them. so having moderation done in the background as much as possible is incredibly important. Flexing power and having fun with ur abilities will make people jealous, leading to hate towards the staff. This is something that happens in a lot of communities, sc2mafia was 1 of those. It was a hard line to balance in the discord as well... However, on the other end a lack of moderation or moderators gives the image the site is neglected and nobody is watching out for it. This will kill a site just as fast as over-moderation. its a careful balance.
    And my utopia.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  4. #104

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Marshmallow Marshall View Post
    A lot has happened while I was sleeping on here... First of all, I'll do the clean-up of established and proven facts that are being debated.

    First of all:


    Because then people would unsign, since the signs are the same for the other S-FMs. And if they were to stay in both, starting it would kill activity of AT LEAST one game, if not both.
    Of course, it is possible to start it, on paper. It works, signs are there! But if it happens, games won't have activity because the SAME people will be on two games (and three threads, in this specific case). So what will happen is that games won't be enjoyable for most players, and it is literally the system's job to make games: 1) played and 2) fun (that's the short version).


    Second point:
    I have been here long enough, and have played enough games, on enough different sites, spectated these, to know what a system's goal is, and to know which consequences it has. I was one of the few people who kept the site and the signups going, when there was no moderation... so your discredit is denied. This is supposed to be an honest debate, I would like it to remain one.

    This is answered by the answer to this. It's pretty simple: a large majority of players don't multigame. Therefore, we can see each player as a value of one, that goes on only one signup. So, if we have 1 setup for 14 players, for example, and we have a playerbase of 20, in general. There is always at least one person who is busy because real life, so let's say 19. The 14P setup will be full in a short time, and people will play and enjoy it. Then, we put a 10P setup (example again), and the dead, and the people who didn't sign for the 14P can sign for the 10P, and everyone is happy, plays a game, etc. If there is a stronger demand in hosting, people can still post their signups, so people can STILL sign and plan their stuff, but there's one game that starts first, and there's no issue. However, if there are 5 games free at the same time, it's chaos, people don't know where to sign, and setups take years to fill. It's not an assumption, it's simple math: unless one setup is really GREAAAT and everyone wants to play it over others, which doesn't happen often (therefore you can't base a system on that), the signs will be spread over the 5 signups that are open, therefore none of them will fill before a while. Of course, it wouldn't always be like this; but it would OFTEN be. Would it be the end of the site? I don't know. It could be, if the scenario I put there happens too much. And the advantage of this system, which is more choice in setups, is minimal, since there is ALREADY choice by just signing for what you want to sign for, since there are more than 1 signups, now. There's a reason we aren't rushing it: it would harm the game flow and/or the game quality, and that is an absolute.

    There is more than one person, we have Ganelon, and we have Gyrlander who earlier said this:

    Capitalism is uncertain, risky; in fact, it's like the stock market, to take your capitalism image back. If we want a site that will last, we don't want to just gamble it.

    Now, I don't say I want no change at all. I want to improve what we have... which brings to the next point.

    That's scummy... I already did that several days ago lol, and I keep doing it.

    There you go. It's based on what a system needs to have, it's explained and all.
    As you can see, it's inspired by the current system, without being the current state of the site. It's what I mean by "not throwing the current system in the garbage pin".
    People who didnít give a shit and just wanted to play would flock to whatever signup has the most players, just as happens now. I think youíre underestimating the communityís intelligence - obviously the players will know that in order for a game to start they need to make a decision and fill up a lobby. Basically all of ur arguments are ďI donít think x will happenĒ with zero evidence to support that belief. Why not give it a try and see what happens? You think the site will somehow immediately die?
    Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth Jar Jar the wise?

  5. #105

  6. #106

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Lol i'll play whatever, but personally i wont sign for games with toxic players in them. I don't enjoy playing in multiple games at once, if two games i sign for were to start at around the same time i'd be unsigning out of one of the games.

    I've never played a save where I havn't had fun, maybe im just easy idk.

    Give the power to the people!
    This isn't where i parked my car.....

  7. #107

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by aamirus View Post
    People who didn’t give a shit and just wanted to play would flock to whatever signup has the most players, just as happens now. I think you’re underestimating the community’s intelligence - obviously the players will know that in order for a game to start they need to make a decision and fill up a lobby. Basically all of ur arguments are “I don’t think x will happen” with zero evidence to support that belief. Why not give it a try and see what happens? You think the site will somehow immediately die?
    And I think you're underestimating the community's (and the general human's) stubbornness.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  8. #108

  9. #109
    Ganelon
    Guest

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Hosting ain't just for the players tho. It's for the hosts as well.
    It's fun. I like hosting, even though I suck at it. Hosts DO need to have a minimum of responsibility and accountability, but you can't expect everyone to be great at setupbuilding lol. I don't think it's fair for you to skip a setup just 'cause you don't like it.
    That being said. You're more than free to host your kind of games if you're up to it. If people like it, they'll play it.
    You could even ask someone else to host it for you.
    It seems to me that the real problem here is that some people would rather they played their own kind of setups, which is fine, but this isn't the way to solve this problem. Doing so will only make people not want to play your games out of spite/frustration.
    I liked rumox' suggestion (fun game/normal game etc), but it's not perfect.

  10. #110

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    From a players perspective. This sight was fun when MM was running it. Everything was smooth. More and more people where coming to play. Now it feels like a hostile takeover. (Not saying there is just feels like it). So the FM has changed in the last month. It is not as much fun. It is almost like the freedom the site had to grow has been stifled. Like an old problem that was once fixed coming back. I donít know but this is just from a players perspective.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  11. #111

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Ganelon View Post
    Hosting ain't just for the players tho. It's for the hosts as well.
    It's fun. I like hosting, even though I suck at it. Hosts DO need to have a minimum of responsibility and accountability, but you can't expect everyone to be great at setupbuilding lol. I don't think it's fair for you to skip a setup just 'cause you don't like it.
    That being said. You're more than free to host your kind of games if you're up to it. If people like it, they'll play it.
    You could even ask someone else to host it for you.
    It seems to me that the real problem here is that some people would rather they played their own kind of setups, which is fine, but this isn't the way to solve this problem. Doing so will only make people not want to play your games out of spite/frustration.
    I liked rumox' suggestion (fun game/normal game etc), but it's not perfect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    From a players perspective. This sight was fun when MM was running it. Everything was smooth. More and more people where coming to play. Now it feels like a hostile takeover. (Not saying there is just feels like it). So the FM has changed in the last month. It is not as much fun. It is almost like the freedom the site had to grow has been stifled. Like an old problem that was once fixed coming back. I don’t know but this is just from a players perspective.
    Both of your points are the developpement of what I said in my Utopia: the system must have minimal encroachement on hosts' and players' rights, while keeping a nice, smooth flow.

    The issue I have with polling is what Ganelon just said: if you don't like a setup personally, you'll vote to skip it, while other people will like it. Complete freedom in signing is more freedom than with democracy. At the risk of looking over-serious and complicated, I think that if you really want to help the site with a great system, you need to look at how political systems work, what their advantages, disadvantages and dangers are, etc.
    Spoiler : Quotes :
    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Hey peter View Post
    There are two wolves inside you. One is addicted to crack. The other one is also addicted to crack. You are addicted to crack.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    MM IS AN ANTI-VAXXER
    Quote Originally Posted by BananaCucho View Post
    Mallow are you really an anti vaxxer
    Quote Originally Posted by The Lawyer View Post
    Besides your lamp and your refridgerators, do you find anyone else suspicious?
    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    God is a goofy loser.

  12. #112

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    While this might be a little off topic (I'll come back and post more of my personal thoughts towards other peoples opinions on reformation at a later time), I just want to discuss this quickly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    From a players perspective. This sight was fun when MM was running it. Everything was smooth. More and more people where coming to play. Now it feels like a hostile takeover. (Not saying there is just feels like it). So the FM has changed in the last month. It is not as much fun. It is almost like the freedom the site had to grow has been stifled. Like an old problem that was once fixed coming back. I donít know but this is just from a players perspective.
    I don't love the framing of this since the "hostile takeover" part seems a bit melodramatic, especially since the general system for FMs doesn't seem to have changed in the past few months. However, it does relate to an issue that I do think has been going on for a little while.

    Based off of posts and comments that have been made, it seems that a significant amount of tension has developed between some of the returning players and the newer players on the site. For the people who might be involved in some of this tension, what do you think the issue is and do you think that there is anything that could be done to improve community cohesiveness?

  13. #113

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    I've been content to lurk in shadows for over a year, keeping my opinion to myself and playing elsewhere. But people keep pm'ing me to play here. Well, I'm not interested in playing games with a meta that encourages bad play being acceptable. I was going to go back to going inactive but crypt made this thread so yes, I'm venting my frustration at not finding setups that interest me/having to decide play setups I don't want to or don't play at all.

    The majority lynch rule that is almost standard highly encourages bad play with little risk and is 100% broken if there are any afk players.

    Spoiler : :

  14. #114

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Auckmid View Post
    While this might be a little off topic (I'll come back and post more of my personal thoughts towards other peoples opinions on reformation at a later time), I just want to discuss this quickly...



    I don't love the framing of this since the "hostile takeover" part seems a bit melodramatic, especially since the general system for FMs doesn't seem to have changed in the past few months. However, it does relate to an issue that I do think has been going on for a little while.

    Based off of posts and comments that have been made, it seems that a significant amount of tension has developed between some of the returning players and the newer players on the site. For the people who might be involved in some of this tension, what do you think the issue is and do you think that there is anything that could be done to improve community cohesiveness?
    Staff vs Community is something that sc2mafia, mod and forum, has always had an issue with. Old staff returning and so is the problem; so i would take a look at that. last 2 years the only problem we have had was PTB lol (which btw, is a former staff member)

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    I've been content to lurk in shadows for over a year, keeping my opinion to myself and playing elsewhere. But people keep pm'ing me to play here. Well, I'm not interested in playing games with a meta that encourages bad play being acceptable. I was going to go back to going inactive but crypt made this thread so yes, I'm venting my frustration at not finding setups that interest me/having to decide play setups I don't want to or don't play at all.

    The majority lynch rule that is almost standard highly encourages bad play with little risk and is 100% broken if there are any afk players.
    I disagree with it encouraging bad play, but I do agree with it being broken with AFK players. Maybe creating it mandatory lynch after D1 or something. however that still raises the issue that if a town or 2 is AFK then mafia controls the lynching power =\ AFKs make things tough lol This is more that a host needs to start USING a better system and spreading awareness to this better system to be adapted. right now we use majority lynch due to it being the popular system we are familiar with. rarely do we have an AFK ruin the lynch choice. but it does happen =\

    But, @Yayap you keep saying you dont like the setups. can u link me to an example of 2-3 of the setups ur playing at the other sites ur active at?
    Last edited by Distorted; January 25th, 2019 at 07:30 PM.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  15. #115

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post

    The majority lynch rule that is almost standard highly encourages bad play with little risk and is 100% broken if there are any afk players.
    Gonna disagree with Distorted strongly here and say hell yeah it does.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  16. #116

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Gonna disagree with Distorted strongly here and say hell yeah it does.
    How does majority lynch encourage bad play though? If anything I think it would encourage better play because you would have to persuade more than 50% of the people to follow you to get a lynch. Majority lynch usually you just kind of coast as long as your target is top voted. I just like it because it gets rid of the frustration of damn AFKs =(

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  17. #117

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Gonna disagree with Distorted strongly here and say hell yeah it does.
    Let me guess you want Concordent voteing style? Like we used it on turnabout?
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  18. #118

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    How does majority lynch encourage bad play though? If anything I think it would encourage better play because you would have to persuade more than 50% of the people to follow you to get a lynch. Majority lynch usually you just kind of coast as long as your target is top voted. I just like it because it gets rid of the frustration of damn AFKs =(
    Because it limits the vote to 1 train. You can't have multiple trains going if you want to get a lynch off, thus bad play goes without any pressure. To get that 1 person lynched, good town players avoid bringing up very valid points on a different scum target to prevent a divided train equaling a no lynch. Even if say 2 sheriffs have guiltys on different people. So their bad plays aren't even addressed and go unnoticed by the majority vs if we aren't worried about there not being a lynch if not everyone agrees, much more info comes out and bad play is much more scrutinized. Not to mention that personally I find that it wastes most of the day since no good player would hammer early thus even less votes/pressure. Trust me, I'm known for ignoring any votes on me until eod. There is literally 0 pressure until L-4 hours - which then everything happens because thats when votes matter - the rest of the day, you can almost ignore.



    As for games I play or like: most of what is played @ mafiauniverse right now. I posted the setup I'm currently enjoying in the setup workshop with a HUGE reduction in day/night length.

    AKA, I don't like games with many neutrals - because they are impossible to predict to balance a setup.
    A sk dying early almost guaranties mafia loose because of the loss of kpn and setups are balanced for the kpn to be lowered past mid-game not early.
    Scum hitting scum make day chat lynches almost useless as town just has to watch the fireworks instead of trying to solve the game themselves.
    All neutrals siding against town make town at LYLO at a ridiculous early point in the game.
    Any cult setups encourage going against your current win conditions to win with a different win condition at end game.
    Any neutral that encourages dying to win just sucks unless it's used like epic mafia where game ENDS with a jester lynch and only jester wins.
    Any solo winning killing neutral has near 0% chance to win unless town has to chose to side with the neutral to beat mafia = aka town has already loss and is just picking who wins.

    Spoiler : :

  19. #119

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Because it limits the vote to 1 train. You can't have multiple trains going if you want to get a lynch off, thus bad play goes without any pressure. To get that 1 person lynched, good town players avoid bringing up very valid points on a different scum target to prevent a divided train equaling a no lynch. Even if say 2 sheriffs have guiltys on different people. So their bad plays aren't even addressed and go unnoticed by the majority vs if we aren't worried about there not being a lynch if not everyone agrees, much more info comes out and bad play is much more scrutinized. Not to mention that personally I find that it wastes most of the day since no good player would hammer early thus even less votes/pressure. Trust me, I'm known for ignoring any votes on me until eod. There is literally 0 pressure until L-4 hours - which then everything happens because thats when votes matter - the rest of the day, you can almost ignore.



    As for games I play or like: most of what is played @ mafiauniverse right now. I posted the setup I'm currently enjoying in the setup workshop with a HUGE reduction in day/night length.

    AKA, I don't like games with many neutrals - because they are impossible to predict to balance a setup.
    A sk dying early almost guaranties mafia loose because of the loss of kpn and setups are balanced for the kpn to be lowered past mid-game not early.
    Scum hitting scum make day chat lynches almost useless as town just has to watch the fireworks instead of trying to solve the game themselves.
    All neutrals siding against town make town at LYLO at a ridiculous early point in the game.
    Any cult setups encourage going against your current win conditions to win with a different win condition at end game.
    Any neutral that encourages dying to win just sucks unless it's used like epic mafia where game ENDS with a jester lynch and only jester wins.
    Any solo winning killing neutral has near 0% chance to win unless town has to chose to side with the neutral to beat mafia = aka town has already loss and is just picking who wins.
    Not true about the solo Killer has 0% chance to win. I won in crypts game as a neutral sk. Also in Aivions game as a solo bomber.
    Last edited by Mike; January 25th, 2019 at 10:33 PM.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  20. #120

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Not true about the solo Killer has 0% chance to win. I won in crypts game as a neutral sk. Also in Aivions game as a solo bomber.
    Do you want me to go and evaluate those setups to show you? I'm not saying neutrals don't win - I'm saying that their chance to win is very low based on the setup alone, ignoring meta, ignoring that a faction pretty much has to side with you against their win condition to make the other faction lose.

    Spoiler : :

  21. #121

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Yayap View Post
    Do you want me to go and evaluate those setups to show you? I'm not saying neutrals don't win - I'm saying that their chance to win is very low based on the setup alone, ignoring meta, ignoring that a faction pretty much has to side with you against their win condition to make the other faction lose.
    I understand what you are getting at. They have a lower chance to win. Some players like that challange. I am one. If a setup does not have any neutrals in it I tend to skip them. The neutrals add flavor to a setup. They give a setup the dash of chaos. That is what makes the game fun. Yes you want balance. But to much balance makes the game boring. Why do you think people play crypts games so much? He adds that little chaos. Everyone tends to talk about it. I have enjoyed all the saves I have played in.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  22. #122

  23. #123

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    How does majority lynch encourage bad play though? If anything I think it would encourage better play because you would have to persuade more than 50% of the people to follow you to get a lynch. Majority lynch usually you just kind of coast as long as your target is top voted. I just like it because it gets rid of the frustration of damn AFKs =(
    The problem is when someone goes AFK or because of timezones misses EOD voting and then a lynch target cannot be pushed through. This problem persists in part because some people sign for games they're not interested in and there is a lack of motivation. It also persists because life happens. Majority vote should be abolished a plurality voting should be the standard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voss View Post
    Gonna disagree with Distorted strongly here and say hell yeah it does.
    @Yayap @Voss The games I've enjoyed most are the split plurality voting games, it definitely lessens the stress and frustration.
    Last edited by PowersThatBe; January 26th, 2019 at 09:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Shut up cow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Did you just fucking call him a cow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    No, he played as well as he could. He had you right in the palm of his fucking hand all game and you STILL donít get that. He played you like a fucking fiddle, and it was so obvious and it pains me that nobody else saw it.

  24. #124

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by Distorted View Post
    Staff vs Community is something that sc2mafia, mod and forum, has always had an issue with. Old staff returning and so is the problem; so i would take a look at that. last 2 years the only problem we have had was PTB lol (which btw, is a former staff member)



    I disagree with it encouraging bad play, but I do agree with it being broken with AFK players. Maybe creating it mandatory lynch after D1 or something. however that still raises the issue that if a town or 2 is AFK then mafia controls the lynching power =\ AFKs make things tough lol This is more that a host needs to start USING a better system and spreading awareness to this better system to be adapted. right now we use majority lynch due to it being the popular system we are familiar with. rarely do we have an AFK ruin the lynch choice. but it does happen =\

    But, @Yayap you keep saying you dont like the setups. can u link me to an example of 2-3 of the setups ur playing at the other sites ur active at?

    I would kindly ask that you do not try to use me to frame some sort of argument. I've only had issues with you, blink, noc and galen. In all of those situations both sides were to blame for slinging mud at each other and causing drama. I have taken a step back to work on my own behavior and mental health, so I'd ask that you leave me out of your narrative.

    Also, I was staff, but I was completely different to this community prior to becoming staff. But some stuff happened on staff and in life and then I became toxic PTB. No one else's fault but mine. Because it's all how you deal with situations.


    Anyhow to sling shot this back to being relevant, instead of pivoting to the boogieman that is PTB, why not provide examples of how old staff is "the problem." I'd also argue that I was not the only problem in the last two years, that statement is plain false and disingenuous. There have been other issues. Also the lack of FM leadership is another problem.


    Again, please do not reference me as your arguments as I will not be here to defend myself.

    Thank you again. Hope everyone is well.


    I like this spirited debate on how to make FM better.



    Ciao.
    Last edited by PowersThatBe; January 26th, 2019 at 09:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Shut up cow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Did you just fucking call him a cow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    No, he played as well as he could. He had you right in the palm of his fucking hand all game and you STILL donít get that. He played you like a fucking fiddle, and it was so obvious and it pains me that nobody else saw it.

  25. #125

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    I would kindly ask that you do not try to use me to frame some sort of argument. I've only had issues with you, blink, noc and galen. In all of those situations both sides were to blame for slinging mud at each other and causing drama. I have taken a step back to work on my own behavior and mental health, so I'd ask that you leave me out of your narrative.

    Also, I was staff, but I was completely different to this community prior to becoming staff. But some stuff happened on staff and in life and then I became toxic PTB. No one else's fault but mine. Because it's all how you deal with situations.


    Anyhow to sling shot this back to being relevant, instead of pivoting to the boogieman that is PTB, why not provide examples of how old staff is "the problem." I'd also argue that I was not the only problem in the last two years, that statement is plain false and disingenuous. There have been other issues. Also the lack of FM leadership is another problem.


    Again, please do not reference me as your arguments as I will not be here to defend myself.

    Thank you again. Hope everyone is well.


    I like this spirited debate on how to make FM better.



    Ciao.
    I am impressed. Have to give this guy credit. Admitting ones own faults is a sign of growth. I respect you for that PTB.
    Do Not open this spoiler under any condition!!!!!!!
    Spoiler : :
    WHY CANT YOU FOLLOW SIMPLE DIRECTIONS?
    YOU HAVE JUST CAUSED THE END OF ALL MANKIND!!!!!!

    <a href=https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signaturepics/sigpic27614_1.gif target=_blank>https://www.sc2mafia.com/forum/signat...pic27614_1.gif</a>

  26. #126

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    I will be looking to closing this thread if this thread devolves into how "old staff is the problem". Though I do encourage a new thread about it if people feel strongly about it.

    FM XVII: Bonney Jewelry (Journalist)
    FM XVIII: Kalou (Savage Godfather)
    FM XX: Joseph Bertrand (Marshall)
    FM XXI: USA (Escort)
    FM XV: Whiskey (Whore)

  27. #127

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    I would kindly ask that you do not try to use me to frame some sort of argument. I've only had issues with you, blink, noc and galen. In all of those situations both sides were to blame for slinging mud at each other and causing drama. I have taken a step back to work on my own behavior and mental health, so I'd ask that you leave me out of your narrative.

    Also, I was staff, but I was completely different to this community prior to becoming staff. But some stuff happened on staff and in life and then I became toxic PTB. No one else's fault but mine. Because it's all how you deal with situations.


    Anyhow to sling shot this back to being relevant, instead of pivoting to the boogieman that is PTB, why not provide examples of how old staff is "the problem." I'd also argue that I was not the only problem in the last two years, that statement is plain false and disingenuous. There have been other issues. Also the lack of FM leadership is another problem.


    Again, please do not reference me as your arguments as I will not be here to defend myself.

    Thank you again. Hope everyone is well.


    I like this spirited debate on how to make FM better.



    Ciao.
    If you are going to accept responsibility and actually put the effort in to try to deal with the toxic side of yourself, I will respect that. Issues in life arise and it becomes very easy to vent online. Regardless of any issues people have had, I hope you're making progress within yourself though. Everyone deserves to have a place of inner peace. What your own mind is capable of doing to yourself can be one of the toughest obstacles to deal with in life, but also the most enlightening. I hope you will be able to reach the latter, that is 1 goal we share.

    Go here → → https://discord.gg/rYRT5Tz Type s.cat, enjoy.

  28. #128

  29. #129

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    dang let's keep this a little more constructive, please lol.
    This thread is my opinion of a perfect system, and asking for your opinions on the subject. don't shit on other people's opinions just because they are different from yours

    Quote Originally Posted by S-FM Blue Masquerader View Post
    Hey moron. shut the fuck up or I will shut you up, k? I'm not the person your going to insult and live happily ever after. K? Understand that,

  30. #130

  31. #131

  32. #132

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Potential solutions to issues stated above:


    1. Some sort of voting / poll system I suggested in an earlier post to help make sure best set ups are run.

    2. Some sort of survey sent to community members on which type of set ups they would like to see. (i.e. vanilla, tpr overload, cult, games of chance, experimentals etc)

    3. Abolishing the ladder for monthly contests (best win as towny, best solo win, best scum win etc) These come with badges that stay on the user profile forever. Reads as follows: "best scum win March 2019" -- This could later turn into a competition later, perhaps a game of all best of winners for a "best overall players Summer 2019 tourney" single individual player voted MVP that game will be "best overall player 2019 or summer 2019 or something to that effect.
    -- This could apply to hosts as well. Best host awards could be given out by staff and community voting on the best host of the month. I think this drives up competition for people who want to host games to do the best they can.
    -- Perhaps a best set up of the month award too? Maybe I'm coming up with too many awards?

    Addendum to point 3: Could simply make it MVP badges for each game played. Then after a length of time, you could do an MVP game, where only the past MVPs could play. MVPs could be chosen by host or by fellow players. Reason for MVP could be any number of factors determined by staff, host, or fellow players in the match.

    Could have all the MVPs from a single month compete in a game and then MVP for "Month of April" or something could be determined.

    4. Limiting staff ability to:
    • see invisible users.
    • post after thread closes in FM section.
    • see IP address of users (for anon games)


    5. Less focus on "problems" and more focus on solutions. Identifying problems is only one stage of coming to solutions. The next stage is always brain storming ideas to solve the problem. Staff should be open to trying new things, and not dig their heads or feet into the sand and state "there are no problems." or stating nothing will work (point of clarity: this is not an accusation, merely a suggestion). Basically, I think the better way to say this is to have staff that are open to being flexible.

    6. Community cohesiveness. Stated previously there is an "us vs them schism" I think it would be fruitful for everyone to recognize that we are all members of this community, and everyone has a place here.



    And with that I leave you all to discuss.


    Take care of yourselves.

    I'll be back in a few months.
    Last edited by PowersThatBe; January 26th, 2019 at 04:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Shut up cow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16 View Post
    Did you just fucking call him a cow?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthbomber16
    No, he played as well as he could. He had you right in the palm of his fucking hand all game and you STILL donít get that. He played you like a fucking fiddle, and it was so obvious and it pains me that nobody else saw it.

  33. #133

    Re: FM Moving Forward

    Quote Originally Posted by PowersThatBe View Post
    Potential solutions to issues stated above:


    1. Some sort of voting / poll system I suggested in an earlier post to help make sure best set ups are run.

    2. Some sort of survey sent to community members on which type of set ups they would like to see. (i.e. vanilla, tpr overload, cult, games of chance, experimentals etc)

    3. Abolishing the ladder for monthly contests (best win as towny, best solo win, best scum win etc) These come with badges that stay on the user profile forever. Reads as follows: "best scum win March 2019" -- This could later turn into a competition later, perhaps a game of all best of winners for a "best overall players Summer 2019 tourney" single individual player voted MVP that game will be "best overall player 2019 or summer 2019 or something to that effect.
    -- This could apply to hosts as well. Best host awards could be given out by staff and community voting on the best host of the month. I think this drives up competition for people who want to host games to do the best they can.
    -- Perhaps a best set up of the month award too? Maybe I'm coming up with too many awards?

    Addendum to point 3: Could simply make it MVP badges for each game played. Then after a length of time, you could do an MVP game, where only the past MVPs could play. MVPs could be chosen by host or by fellow players. Reason for MVP could be any number of factors determined by staff, host, or fellow players in the match.

    Could have all the MVPs from a single month compete in a game and then MVP for "Month of April" or something could be determined.

    4. Limiting staff ability to:
    • see invisible users.
    • post after thread closes in FM section.
    • see IP address of users (for anon games)


    5. Less focus on "problems" and more focus on solutions. Identifying problems is only one stage of coming to solutions. The next stage is always brain storming ideas to solve the problem. Staff should be open to trying new things, and not dig their heads or feet into the sand and state "there are no problems." or stating nothing will work (point of clarity: this is not an accusation, merely a suggestion). Basically, I think the better way to say this is to have staff that are open to being flexible.

    6. Community cohesiveness. Stated previously there is an "us vs them schism" I think it would be fruitful for everyone to recognize that we are all members of this community, and everyone has a place here.



    And with that I leave you all to discuss.


    Take care of yourselves.

    I'll be back in a few months.
    Surveys and awards just to play fm kinda seems like a bit much. Generally I also don't think the nature of the whole fm game can even encourage fully competitive play. It'd all feel forced to me and personally I'd be more reluctant when signing if there's so much fuzz about games.

 

 

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