Proposal Perm Ban Change

[louiswill]

I propose another solution.

Cancel the perm ban, instead, add another list of "non-protection list" stored not in criminal account's bank but other people's bank:

Meta: A person choose to disrespect public rule is be to abandoned and to be left no protection.

Detail:
Once a person violated so many rules that the person hits a permban level.
The person is not protected by our rules.

Use huge big words in begining of the game says:
"Because <Accountname><Accountname><Accountname> and <Accountname> exist in the game, everyone is allowed to game throw and enjoy the blast!"

In that particular game,
Any abuse, public harassment, humiliation from both mods and public are allowed to be happened on them and to the game in any games they in.


Con:
This proposal severe damages public morality.

And yes, I'm indeed using public discrimination against them,
because it is a costy war for admins fight against criminals.
It is a very evil plan.

This plan damages humanity as a whole by turning people against each other.
It is shortsighted and retarded in a sense of civilization.


-----
Extreme criminals shall have no protection,
their property, wealth and fun experience of a normal game can be freely ruined and violated by anyone.

Light criminals are still protected, for they can still afford the price of punishment.
-----




Pro:
Admit it or not, banning them only makes them feel better.
It is the incentive "Aha! I can bypass all rules! I'm cool and awesome!" behind their activity.
The whole process is fun to them.

Pro choice people want an lawless environment, then we give them one.

OF course, this plan will not happen in real life, because regulation in real life is much different than software.

This plan is good for both pro-choice real life genius and as well as public which demand more efficient actions against criminals.

Sorry about the neg point. I really need some discussion.

The situation you described is a chaos. I agree, but it is only a short term.
In a long term, it is more directly to achieve the world we all want.

First, lets get down to what those abominations are:
Gamethrowing terrorist doesn't get thrilled because they throws the game,
They get thrilled because they think they are right to against authority, such as the mod.
They think they are successful because they think everyone is frustrated after they throw the games.
Then they justify their action through freedom.
They prosperous because they have an living opponent, that is, mods community.
None of them are initially gigantic cyber game throwing career to begin with.

Mechanically
The explained activity and motivation implies,
The most direct way to stop activity is to remove the motivation.

If there is no incentive reasons to motivate their activity, then there is nothing they enjoy,
providing everyone who harasses the community still has to justify themselves.

Therefore,
The most direct way to deal with the problem is to remove the opposition, the ban list, which serves as the incentive of the terrorist activity.

At the same time, we need another substitution plan to deal with possible short term increasing terrorist activities. That comes my proposal of "Non-protection List"

This list intuitively will use community force serving as complement assisting mod's work,
providing majority players are disgusted of criminal activities.

If everyone is in a "lets party" attitude about their existence, then their activity will essentially become meaningless and their movement will end.

Notice their reason fight against mods are sorely "mod abusing and overpower without mandate and support of majority."
We all know it is not true, and we shall have no fear to have an open testament of community support rate.

After Slaol taking over, I suppose you all are confident of approve rates.
As long as mods have more approving rate than US President, we should be at upper hand against game throwing terrorists.

Why would it work then?
There are many real life example:

Any ideology that reaches a real high point will also exposure the major flaws behind.
Such as communism and capitalism, once they ideologues get what they want, a central idea-only government and mass aggressive political and civil activities, eventually the group shrinks sharply.

Europe moves into a socialism welfare and China totally rolled back their communism ideology.

Because those idea are too ideal to be real.
I argue the same thing of those game throwing terrorist.
They want to get a regulation free game.
As you must agree, it is too ideal to be true.
Therefore, if we let them practice as much as they want, then at some point, their activity will collapse.
Contrarily, the more pressure you put on ideologues, the more active and resistance they become.

Then,

there is crimea crisis,
Putin has 67% approving rate national-wide, and 40% local Crimea population are Russian.
Therefore, Putin move in and go for the annex.
For Crimea problem alone, Putin is a winner to beginning with.(Though economically russia takes a hit.)

Mods are, at the moment, have much more approving than gamethrowing terrorist,
We shall not fear at all.
In a short term, there maybe some increasing terrorist activity, but the temporary boost should wear-off in a few months, and then gamethrowing activity should enter a long term declines.

That is my argument and prediction.

Permanban list is actually counterproductive in a long term. Gamethrow-Terrorist only became mutant and more deadly than they were. They manage to get around bank file and ruin games in the lobbies too.

Therefore, the permban list is, in fact, direct the world in to the opposite direction.

[Damus_Graves]

wat?
No.

I got neg repped nuuu.
This change would create an environment that is a complete contradiction to what staff hopes to achieve in the first place. When you set rules in place that are directed away from complete anarchy and trolling and other harassment and gamethrowing situations, it makes little sense to implement a change which intentionally creates a situation that is all about harrashment, gamethrowing, trolling, and complete anarchy.

[Mugy]

Reopened upon request. Discussion is allowed.

[Damus_Graves]

Thank you mugy.
When I discovered this was closed I didn't want to open it to step on any toes.

[ika]

Theres a thing called "test mafia" they dont implement listings there....

just direct all ppl who want to ruin games there

[Damus_Graves]

Theres a thing called "test mafia" they dont implement listings there....

just direct all ppl who want to ruin games there

Mafia Test is used to test new changes to the game of mafia.
Its not Australia.

[ika]

Mafia Test is used to test new changes to the game of mafia.
Its not Australia.

My point still stands though, if you need to test something you make private games.

The fact that listing isnt there is my point. They have a place to do what they like with no drawback.

Its like the suggestion long ago "lets make a new mafia with no listings for banned ppl"

people went "isnt that what mafia test kinda is?"

[Damus_Graves]

My point still stands though, if you need to test something you make private games.

The fact that listing isnt there is my point. They have a place to do what they like with no drawback.

Its like the suggestion long ago "lets make a new mafia with no listings for banned ppl"

people went "isnt that what mafia test kinda is?"

Also how could we even enforce something like that?
Its not like we have any power to force players to use one kind of mafia instead of another.
Banlisting can only do so much against the onslaught of smurf. This idea would be completely invalid because of smurfs negating the restriction.
Point, sadly, isn't standing at all.

[ika]

1)Also how could we even enforce something like that?
2)Its not like we have any power to force players to use one kind of mafia instead of another.
3)Banlisting can only do so much against the onslaught of smurf. This idea would be completely invalid because of smurfs negating the restriction.
4)Point, sadly, isn't standing at all.

1) what are you refering to here?
2) who said anyone was forcing anyone to play anohter? if a player gets ban listed, they can still play on mafia test is what im saying
3) isnt that what the blanket banlist was there for? to negate the smerf attack?
4) my point is fairly fine, im saying banned users still have a place to go to. you seem to be misinterpreting/not understanding anything and just twisting it. maybe louis can come on and give you some sense.

[Damus_Graves]

1) what are you refering to here?
2) who said anyone was forcing anyone to play anohter? if a player gets ban listed, they can still play on mafia test is what im saying
3) isnt that what the blanket banlist was there for? to negate the smerf attack?
4) my point is fairly fine, im saying banned users still have a place to go to. you seem to be misinterpreting/not understanding anything and just twisting it. maybe louis can come on and give you some sense.

Case in point: Necroplant and his friends are currently ruining games due to constant smurfing to negate banlisting.
Smurfing would ruin banlisting effects which would then enable them to play on the regular mafia map instead of the mafia test map and continue to ruin games. If we try and isloate all the rulebreakers and trollers onto mafia test they can just as easily smurf and head back to the regular mafia map and continue their game ruining. This means we would be forced to do another blanket ban to negate smurfing.
All the while this idea would basically make mafia test used for things other than its original purpose, to test new effects of mafia before loading it onto the regular mafia map (which then effects all other games going on at the time.)

Do you understand what I'm saying now Ika?
Also plox no rudeness, I'm trying to have a legit conversation here.


If not I can tl;dr it for you:
Mafia Test is separate from Mafia to test new additions of mafia before releasing them to the public.
Its just like a closed beta test for newly incoming video games.

[Mugy]

1) what are you refering to here?
2) who said anyone was forcing anyone to play anohter? if a player gets ban listed, they can still play on mafia test is what im saying
3) isnt that what the blanket banlist was there for? to negate the smerf attack?
4) my point is fairly fine, im saying banned users still have a place to go to. you seem to be misinterpreting/not understanding anything and just twisting it. maybe louis can come on and give you some sense.

>.>

[ika]

Case in point: Necroplant and his friends are currently ruining games due to constant smurfing to negate banlisting.
Smurfing would ruin banlisting effects which would then enable them to play on the regular mafia map instead of the mafia test map and continue to ruin games. If we try and isloate all the rulebreakers and trollers onto mafia test they can just as easily smurf and head back to the regular mafia map and continue their game ruining. This means we would be forced to do another blanket ban to negate smurfing.
All the while this idea would basically make mafia test used for things other than its original purpose, to test new effects of mafia before loading it onto the regular mafia map (which then effects all other games going on at the time.)

Do you understand what I'm saying now Ika?
Also plox no rudeness, I'm trying to have a legit conversation here.


If not I can tl;dr it for you:
Mafia Test is separate from Mafia to test new additions of mafia before releasing them to the public.
Its just like a closed beta test for newly incoming video games.

Well if the smerfing is the problem, it was dealt with by blanket banning. As I see it they will continue to smerf as long as you allow them to. As of right now the real only plausible solution is to do another blanket ban on them unless staff can convince blizzard otherwise.

As for mafia test part, the bolded part is wrong, if it was to be a "closed beta" type mod like you are implying it is. It would not be up for public acess. If anyone can get to it, it would not be closed beta its open beta.

Open and closed beta
Developers release either a closed beta or an open beta; closed beta versions are released to a restricted group of individuals for a user test by invitation, while open beta testers are from a larger group, or anyone interested. The testers report any bugs that they find, and sometimes suggest additional features they think should be available in the final version. Examples of a major public beta test are:

Mafia test is releaed on the sc2 modbase and can be acessed by anyone who can find it. What they use it for is up to them.

[Damus_Graves]

Well if the smerfing is the problem, it was dealt with by blanket banning. As I see it they will continue to smerf as long as you allow them to. As of right now the real only plausible solution is to do another blanket ban on them unless staff can convince blizzard otherwise.

As for mafia test part, the bolded part is wrong, if it was to be a "closed beta" type mod like you are implying it is. It would not be up for public acess. If anyone can get to it, it would not be closed beta its open beta.



Mafia test is releaed on the sc2 modbase and can be acessed by anyone who can find it. What they use it for is up to them.

As far as I know Blizzard will not change its current stance regarding their Acarde section of Sc2. Blanket Bans should be a last resort and not the rule, to me. Since we agree that the solution to the smurfing problem is limited to one absolute extreme there isn't really any more to say about it.
I don't particularly care for your minuscule nitpicking about beta tests in which you try and show that one, nearly completely separate, statement i made was exampled incorrectly. The entire point was that mafia test is not used to house rule-breakers, as you originally suggested it to be used for.
That being said, since you haven't tried to come up with anything new, we're done here.

Louiswill, anything you want to input?

[louiswill]

I got neg repped nuuu.
This change would create an environment that is a complete contradiction to what staff hopes to achieve in the first place. When you set rules in place that are directed away from complete anarchy and trolling and other harassment and gamethrowing situations, it makes little sense to implement a change which intentionally creates a situation that is all about harrashment, gamethrowing, trolling, and complete anarchy.

Sorry about the neg point. I really need some discussion.

The situation you described is a chaos. I agree, but it is only a short term.
In a long term, it is more directly to achieve the world we all want.

First, lets get down to what those abominations are:
Gamethrowing terrorist doesn't get thrilled because they throws the game,
They get thrilled because they think they are right to against authority, such as the mod.
They think they are successful because they think everyone is frustrated after they throw the games.
Then they justify their action through freedom.
They prosperous because they have an living opponent, that is, mods community.
None of them are initially gigantic cyber game throwing career to begin with.

Mechanically
The explained activity and motivation implies,
The most direct way to stop activity is to remove the motivation.

If there is no incentive reasons to motivate their activity, then there is nothing they enjoy,
providing everyone who harasses the community still has to justify themselves.

Therefore,
The most direct way to deal with the problem is to remove the opposition, the ban list, which serves as the incentive of the terrorist activity.

At the same time, we need another substitution plan to deal with possible short term increasing terrorist activities. That comes my proposal of "Non-protection List"

This list intuitively will use community force serving as complement assisting mod's work,
providing majority players are disgusted of criminal activities.

If everyone is in a "lets party" attitude about their existence, then their activity will essentially become meaningless and their movement will end.

Notice their reason fight against mods are sorely "mod abusing and overpower without mandate and support of majority."
We all know it is not true, and we shall have no fear to have an open testament of community support rate.

After Slaol taking over, I suppose you all are confident of approve rates.
As long as mods have more approving rate than US President, we should be at upper hand against game throwing terrorists.

Why would it work then?
There are many real life example:

Any ideology that reaches a real high point will also exposure the major flaws behind.
Such as communism and capitalism, once they ideologues get what they want, a central idea-only government and mass aggressive political and civil activities, eventually the group shrinks sharply.

Europe moves into a socialism welfare and China totally rolled back their communism ideology.

Because those idea are too ideal to be real.
I argue the same thing of those game throwing terrorist.
They want to get a regulation free game.
As you must agree, it is too ideal to be true.
Therefore, if we let them practice as much as they want, then at some point, their activity will collapse.
Contrarily, the more pressure you put on ideologues, the more active and resistance they become.

Then,

there is crimea crisis,
Putin has 67% approving rate national-wide, and 40% local Crimea population are Russian.
Therefore, Putin move in and go for the annex.
For Crimea problem alone, Putin is a winner to beginning with.(Though economically russia takes a hit.)

Mods are, at the moment, have much more approving than gamethrowing terrorist,
We shall not fear at all.
In a short term, there maybe some increasing terrorist activity, but the temporary boost should wear-off in a few months, and then gamethrowing activity should enter a long term declines.

That is my argument and prediction.

Permanban list is actually counterproductive in a long term. Gamethrow-Terrorist only became mutant and more deadly than they were. They manage to get around bank file and ruin games in the lobbies too.

Therefore, the permban list is, in fact, direct the world in to the opposite direction.

[Damus_Graves]

Sorry about the neg point. I really need some discussion.

The situation you described is a chaos. I agree, but it is only a short term.
In a long term, it is more directly to achieve the world we all want.

First, lets get down to what those abominations are:
Gamethrowing terrorist doesn't get thrilled because they throws the game,
They get thrilled because they think they are right to against authority, such as the mod.
They think they are successful because they think everyone is frustrated after they throw the games.
Then they justify their action through freedom.
They prosperous because they have an living opponent, that is, mods community.
None of them are initially gigantic cyber game throwing career to begin with.

Mechanically
The explained activity and motivation implies,
The most direct way to stop activity is to remove the motivation.

If there is no incentive reasons to motivate their activity, then there is nothing they enjoy,
providing everyone who harasses the community still has to justify themselves.

Therefore,
The most direct way to deal with the problem is to remove the opposition, the ban list, which serves as the incentive of the terrorist activity.

At the same time, we need another substitution plan to deal with possible short term increasing terrorist activities. That comes my proposal of "Non-protection List"

This list intuitively will use community force serving as complement assisting mod's work,
providing majority players are disgusted of criminal activities.

If everyone is in a "lets party" attitude about their existence, then their activity will essentially become meaningless and their movement will end.

Notice their reason fight against mods are sorely "mod abusing and overpower without mandate and support of majority."
We all know it is not true, and we shall have no fear to have an open testament of community support rate.

After Slaol taking over, I suppose you all are confident of approve rates.
As long as mods have more approving rate than US President, we should be at upper hand against game throwing terrorists.

Why would it work then?
There are many real life example:

Any ideology that reaches a real high point will also exposure the major flaws behind.
Such as communism and capitalism, once they ideologues get what they want, a central idea-only government and mass aggressive political and civil activities, eventually the group shrinks sharply.

Europe moves into a socialism welfare and China totally rolled back their communism ideology.

Because those idea are too ideal to be real.
I argue the same thing of those game throwing terrorist.
They want to get a regulation free game.
As you must agree, it is too ideal to be true.
Therefore, if we let them practice as much as they want, then at some point, their activity will collapse.
Contrarily, the more pressure you put on ideologues, the more active and resistance they become.

Then,

there is crimea crisis,
Putin has 67% approving rate national-wide, and 40% local Crimea population are Russian.
Therefore, Putin move in and go for the annex.
For Crimea problem alone, Putin is a winner to beginning with.(Though economically russia takes a hit.)

Mods are, at the moment, have much more approving than gamethrowing terrorist,
We shall not fear at all.
In a short term, there maybe some increasing terrorist activity, but the temporary boost should wear-off in a few months, and then gamethrowing activity should enter a long term declines.

That is my argument and prediction.

Permanban list is actually counterproductive in a long term. Gamethrow-Terrorist only became mutant and more deadly than they were. They manage to get around bank file and ruin games in the lobbies too.

Therefore, the permban list is, in fact, direct the world in to the opposite direction.

Its sound in theory. I can accept the mechanical explanation behind your idea.
Considering that you are working on two big assumptions hinders my acceptance a little.
Anticipating what people would do in certain situations is a risky move.
I can't see the community approving of this action nor can I see them following through with it consistently. Things would have to move, imo, exactly as predicted for the outcome to be whats anticipated and it has been my experience that the projected outcome never happens.
Also have to account for the number of people this would effect. Imo with the more people you include into an experiment the higher the chance of failure.

[louiswill]

Its sound in theory. I can accept the mechanical explanation behind your idea.
Considering that you are working on two big assumptions hinders my acceptance a little.
Anticipating what people would do in certain situations is a risky move.
I can't see the community approving of this action nor can I see them following through with it consistently. Things would have to move, imo, exactly as predicted for the outcome to be whats anticipated and it has been my experience that the projected outcome never happens.
Also have to account for the number of people this would effect. Imo with the more people you include into an experiment the higher the chance of failure.

I agree. I didn't put too much hope that anything will change immediately, but I believe our discussion is productive and such discussion helps us unite community as a whole. -- which is more important than the proposal itself.

Come back to topic,

It is hardly say that if any outcome will happen according to plan, but instead of sluggish in a costy and vicious cycle, something must help us to get out of the situation.

It's been a while since Sc2mafia alive.
At the mean time,
Other online mafia game doesn't have same level mutant anti-society exist, but their moderation are much lighter than Sc2mafia too.

I'd say those two factor is positively co-related at currently point:

Regulation Strength Vs. Gamethrowing Anachy (in online game)


Sounds like war on drugs.....

People play against each other, the throwers think it is a fun game. To you and me, this is just a pain in the teeth.

Though taking the teeth out is painful, but it help.

[Damus_Graves]

The idea would have to be proposed to our current High Council in a bit more fleshed out way and time would need to be given to them in order for it to bounce around their heads a bit. Since we agree with the idea's core design continued conversation wouldn't necessarily reveal any new side to it. We'd have to have a devils advocate for that imo.
Maybe you can convince Ika to argue against it.

[louiswill]

Maybe you can convince Ika to argue against it.

I positively think ika will be able to swallow my poor English with some coffee and jalapeno. Haha.

[ika]

I positively think ika will be able to swallow my poor English with some coffee and jalapeno. Haha.

Funny thing is, you make more sense to me then damus does. damus just gets butthurt and rejects all converstations with me. You at least try to clarify and we can usally come to a general agreement.

damus: reject and shut everything out becasue he must be right about everything

louis: clairfies and can reach agreement

thats the diffrence. if damus wants me to argue against he he should do the convincing. however they say a good debator can argue both sides no matter what their standpoint is on it. here im just a player who offers something and opionion. damus just shoots them down and doesnt try to understand

but the key factor is this:

its a briliant idea, but the implication of it is not exactly worth it imo.

I think the intial backlash that it would casue alone would cause the game to be runined on a constant basis.

Then ask yourself, what about those who want to play a legit game but cant?
What happens to players who just quit playing altogether becasue of it?
What does the community think?
Come the end of it, would it be worth it?
Whose being affected the most? the mods, the players, or dr?
How long would it last?

questions like those have to be considered first and even then, it would be a tough thing to have out there with such a large playerbase. i could think of more, but i grow tired and need sleep. if i think of more i might add some

[Bruno]

Louis, I think this idea could be fun, but with how many people are on banlist trolls would probably break up into groups, like the Necrokids, just to fuck games up. It just makes their job easier.

[louiswill]

Louis, I think this idea could be fun, but with how many people are on banlist trolls would probably break up into groups, like the Necrokids, just to fuck games up. It just makes their job easier.

It is the vicious cycle I'm saying.

High pressure policy leads to more rebels.
The more rebels ask for more high pressure permban.

I hope everyone's job get easier.
They don't want to destroy the game as a final goal,
they want to destroy Sc2mod forces by destroy the game.
By destroying Sc2mod force, they can achieve emotional balance.

I wonder if Sc2mods walk away from the conflict, the conflict will eventually end too.
However, a 3-5 months chaos era should be expected for this proposal, and if the community can not hold through the period, the result would be bad.

I think our community is stronger than it appeared, so I guess time won't be a problem.

The big thing is, if the problem is solved, then our community get to expand more and mod's report load can be reduced too, because terrorist doesn't need to register new player account to wreck games.

Hopefully the community can take care of themselves and all we need to do is to assist them by make "non-protection list" NPL


Plus, everyone who has need to gamethrow/random throw lighting strike/walk around in the game can do that
when permban people join games.
OF course, you shouldn't do that even it is allowed.

[kyle1234513]

i cant agree to this because for a few reasons.

the first being people who signed up for a regular game of mafia would find that the game is now different from what they originally thought they were going to do/play all because only 1 person in particular is in the room. 14 players now have to play differently because 1 person joined?

the second being because of the sheer number of people who have made it to permaban list. if 3 of them were online at a time almost all games would find themselves falling under this new style of play, almost no game would start with the intention of playing mafia, but rather it would be troll fest 24/7.

the last reason being that permaban would be meaningless, kickvote would have more influence on games and all of what were doing would be pointless. and even then, *new account*

all this would do is give known trolls an all access pass to come back to mafia and ruin as many games of mafia as possible. what you are describing is nothing more than (ranked, custom, those drop down options when you go to join a game). what was suggested before was that trolls could play with other trolls and they would be segregated from the general mafia population, and all games would go unregulated. you want to introduce that style of play into the general population. even this didnt work because these trolls dont want to play mafia, they only want to troll people.

[Elixir]

Mafia Test is used to test new changes to the game of mafia.
Its not Australia.

Whoa.

Shots fired.

[louiswill]

@kyle1234513

To the First:
No matter how the ban rule changes, the core of mafia will remain the same. As long as each group has certain amount people holds common interests, the game will not change as you might think.

Allow homosexual marriage doesn't prompt homosexual marriage.
The same,
allow game throw in certain conditions doesn't mean anyone Have to change game play style.




To the second:
I argue the situation is short term.
I expected a short term Troll Feast but it won't last long.

You said, "Trolls troll people."
Assume it is correct then the plan works even better.

Because in a short term, trolls will experience a whole clust troll feast of troll population concentrating in games.
There are no People left to be troll about.

Thus, in a long run, the troll population will decrease.
The plan will work.




To the third:
This shouldn't be the reason why you are against my plan.
This is the reason of the plan.

The whole "War On Troll PermBan" is in fact meaningless, providing the mutating and growing troll population.

[creedkingsx]

Did I never chime in and say no to this?
Oh.
No.

[Slaol]

Reopened by request. Thread is fine open for now.

[cattack]

Short version without clarification:

If this happens then see picture bellow

[louiswill]

If everyone agree on the plan at first glace, then the world is in trouble.
If everyone disagree without any reasons provided, then the world is in trouble.

Good thing, I still have a planet to live on.

[creedkingsx]

I could get in trouble if I provide the reasoning for why this is so terribly, terribly bad.

[louiswill]

I could get in trouble if I provide the reasoning for why this is so terribly, terribly bad.

Why would anyone get in trouble? Is anyone threating you at your back?
At least I don't spit on anyone just because they think I'm wrong.

How about post something insightful other than cluster of adjectives.

The proposal itself is indeed horribly wrong on many levels,
but the problem I pointing at is too complex to have a 'clean' method.
The situation is just escalating, must we wait till Sc3? Then the problem will be inherited too. Then that would be really suck.

[creedkingsx]

Why would anyone get in trouble? Is anyone threating you at your back?
At least I don't spit on anyone just because they think I'm wrong.

How about post something insightful other than cluster of adjectives.

The proposal itself is indeed horribly wrong on many levels,
but the problem I pointing at is too complex to have a 'clean' method.
The situation is just escalating, must we wait till Sc3? Then the problem will be inherited too. Then that would be really suck.

My previous statement was going to be an aggressive insult because the idea is clearly shitty and to come up with it makes you shitty.
BUT that is under the assumption you were serious. Given that you recognize that it is "horribly wrong" makes me at least curious enough to actually read, and so I will read through.

[louiswill]

I have listed the Con(magnified size and painted in other color) in the main post, but I wonder how many people paid attention to that.

There are many other concern such as those listed by Damus and Kyle, which I all agree.

It isn't too hard to construct an argument why this plan is woefully wrong, but I think it worth everyone's brain to think about.

[Frog]

Consider Permaban like heaven. It is a release from this second-screen world to the natural wild. Do not pity those that will never return, because now they are living life

[louiswill]

Consider Permaban like heaven. It is a release from this second-screen world to the natural wild. Do not pity those that will never return, because now they are living life

Those a few who are on perm ban only become more care-freely.---Yes, they entered a heaven, and we are left in the hell.

[kyle1234513]

louis, you are missing the point here. people are permabanned for exactly the kind of play style that are you promoting. everything we do is to negate this playstyle and get people away from doing these things.

[creedkingsx]

Didn't see this stated anywhere in the OP so I will state it:
Given how clearly active the people can be, necro, tafkal and so on, this would just create an endless stream of games without rules. The game would exist no more. And that, alone, would make the people happy that you are trying to prevent.

I can recognize what you want to do, but any public action made will benefit anyone on a banlist.

[ypmagic]

Criminal Psychology 101:

There are many criminals throughout the world of Mafia, and our Keepers work hard to process reports submitted by the general public. We all know that multiple offenses get harsher punishments, but why exactly do we use the permaban system instead of making them play a trolly game? When we process these reports, people want them to get punished. They don't want those offenders ruining their Mafia experience. If we were to ruin the games of 14 over 1 person on the permaban list, then it would be truly unfair for those 14 and the reputation of Mafia will go even further down the hole.

Statistics report that 100% of people on the permaban list are TROLLS WITH NO LIVES. If we were to keep these TROLLS WITH NO LIVES in Mafia, the reputation would plummet, making this community a radioactive wasteland. Players will stop playing Mafia, new players will stop coming because the game will go down to the 50th ranks, and Doomed Earth Revised will take our position. TROLLS WITH NO LIVES have shown to have 100% hatred for moderators of Mafia, and should not be dealt with. The only way to deal with the TROLLS WITH NO LIVES is to permaban them.

In other research, people have tried to move these permaban users to Mafia Test. Well, Mafia Test, as in the name, IS ONLY FOR TESTING . WE CAN'T PUT BUGGY UPDATES ON THE AIR AND THEN HOPE THAT IT WORKS PROPERLY.

[creedkingsx]

Either way, they make it so a number of people who wanted to play a legitimate game can no longer do that. If you can't see that, you don't understand the human mind very well.

[louiswill]

louis, you are missing the point here. people are permabanned for exactly the kind of play style that are you promoting. everything we do is to negate this playstyle and get people away from doing these things.

If a play style creates game that is not fun, then the playstyle will negate itself. There is no such a play style that is addictive without some fun behind it.
If you all agree their play style is not fun objectively then there is no such concern that they can do it long.

Didn't see this stated anywhere in the OP so I will state it:
Given how clearly active the people can be, necro, tafkal and so on, this would just create an endless stream of games without rules. The game would exist no more. And that, alone, would make the people happy that you are trying to prevent.
I can recognize what you want to do, but any public action made will benefit anyone on a banlist.

My point is that their activity will decrease, once their wanted environment is no more. There is no such a thing as endless criminal stream. All mortal activity will end eventually, if no one feed the trolls. For their circumstance, they become active because they like to get around rules and live like a thug. What if there is no rule to get around about? Permban is a rule they can get around, we need something they can not.

They troll people who want to play legit games, in a short term, they will eventually have a troll feast but really can't be worse than they are right now. Then the population of "people who want to play legit games" will decrease, then they will find they are in a game where Trolls Vs Trolls. That is where they can not win. And their activity will decrease, people who want to play legit games then will come back.


@ypmagic, perm ban clearly doesn't keep Trolls with No Life at the bay, so that solution is broken. They keep coming and they will keep coming, because they are trolls with no life and we feed them with perm ban.

[Damus_Graves]

If a play style creates game that is not fun, then the playstyle will negate itself. There is no such a play style that is addictive without some fun behind it.
If you all agree their play style is not fun objectively then there is no such concern that they can do it long.




My point is that their activity will decrease, once their wanted environment is no more. There is no such a thing as endless criminal stream. All mortal activity will end eventually, if no one feed the trolls. For their circumstance, they become active because they like to get around rules and live like a thug. What if there is no rule to get around about?

@ypmagic, perm ban clearly doesn't keep Trolls with No Life at the bay, so that solution is broken. They keep coming and they will keep coming, because they are trolls with no life and we feed them with perm ban.

Louis.
What Creed is saying is basically the cons outweigh the pros. With how much we constantly have to deal with the previously mentioned people it isn't worth it overall to suddenly give them free reign for games they join. Couple this with the amount of people currently and previously banned and it adds up to a huge amount of games suddenly ruined. Like, its a HUGE amount of games instantly ruined. Its not good overall because the long term is to long to wait out.

[creedkingsx]

If they don't get bored of joining games for 12 hours while on the banlist, they wont get bored of being able to stay and see people get annoyed that they cant actually play a game.

[louiswill]

Louis.
What Creed is saying is basically the cons outweigh the pros. With how much we constantly have to deal with the previously mentioned people it isn't worth it overall to suddenly give them free reign for games they join. Couple this with the amount of people currently and previously banned and it adds up to a huge amount of games suddenly ruined. Like, its a HUGE amount of games instantly ruined. Its not good overall because the long term is to long to wait out.

That is what I hope will ends. The more effort we spend in permban them, the less we want to let them free. At the same time their number and skill increases. The whole situation will end up be a dead fight with normal players being the only losers. Clearly, most of people are not benefit from the increasingly organized gamethrower criminal activity.

I agree that one major flaw of the proposal is that "the long term" is very vague, but I'm more afraid the trolls will follow us into sc3, sc4, sc5 too. I think it will only be worse if we don't stop it sometime.

[louiswill]

If they don't get bored of joining games for 12 hours while on the banlist, they wont get bored of being able to stay and see people get annoyed that they cant actually play a game.

They will, but I argue that is only the short term.
Natural selection mechanic will build strong anti-troll sc2mafia community for us.
Once they find they are in a game where everyone else is just as troll as them, they will wear off because no one "normal" to be trolled about(Non-protection list warned everyone). Once their activity decreases, then we can enjoy regular normal game. They are not enjoying a game no one can play but enjoy the rage from people instead. ---Rage Feeds the trolls.

[Damus_Graves]

They will, but I argue that is only the short term.
Natural selection mechanic will build strong anti-troll sc2mafia community for us.
Once they find they are in a game where everyone else is just as troll as them, they will wear off because no one "normal" to be trolled about(Non-protection list warned everyone). Once their activity decreases, then we can enjoy regular normal game. They are not enjoying a game no one can play but enjoy the rage from people instead. ---Rage Feeds the trolls.

I already know that won't work as intended because we are discussion human reactions as well as the fact that Necro, Archangel, and other like-minded trolls will not be fazed by this change. I also cannot see the current community looking at this change favorably or going along with it at all. The moment one person speaks up for ppl to stop trolling is the moment that the trolls will win the round.

Please don't post more than a few times also. Post Farming isn't a thing but I still dislike seeing it.

[Cryptonic]

People ruin games specifically to ruin them. If they were allowed to act that way, they wouldn't get a reaction out of players. The want to RUIN shit, they don't want to just fuck around. Getting reactions out of people is the reason they do it, they think it's hilarious.

So, this wouldn't accomplish anything, really.

[kyle1234513]

i would only consider this when more than 50% of every game room from now on is blatantly trollish and playing against the rules. the majority want to play normal mafia, not trollish mafia.

[louiswill]

What if the number of actual hardcore Trolls are much less than we expect?

I say there are only few super trolls who wants to ruin even shits.
(I can see why people want to ruin games, but ruin shit, really, when did sewer work become enjoyable and popular?)

They grow stronger only because permanban pushed more people to their sides.

There just can't be enough trolls in a legit game.
Do we often hear about people who ruin chess or monopoly by intentional losing??
No. Mafia neither should be expected to have such huge level of scum players.

People ruin games specifically to ruin them. If they were allowed to act that way, they wouldn't get a reaction out of players. The want to RUIN shit, they don't want to just fuck around. Getting reactions out of people is the reason they do it, they think it's hilarious.

This only describe a small amount of people. The super hardcore trolls, suppose there are some.
where is the interview of them btw? Geth always says that we dont understand etc etc etc, and he doesn't ruin games intentionally.
Then why wouldn't a terrorist claim that they want to destroy the world?
That concludes Geth is not a hardcore troll. He does things for purposes.

It is a reasonably belief that, there should be many people who are on the permban list but not hardcore.

This suggest that there are a group of people who are not hard-core enough to throw games just because throw games.

Cryptonic and many others are giving an over estimate of our own true enemy.


If we are able to let those people leave the hard-core group, it will also help weaken the organized crime.
Because a general can achieve nothing without soldiers.

Men in group are always stronger than Men in one.
Disbanding groups, we minimize the criminal activity.

i would only consider this when more than 50% of every game room from now on is blatantly trollish and playing against the rules. the majority want to play normal mafia, not trollish mafia.

There should never be a 50% scum level in any games. Or if there is, it would be too late. We can recreate another game and call it trollia instead.

@Damus though human behavior talk is almost fruitless at first glance, but traditional style mafia seems tell us otherwise, the previously ended Hungergame suggest scum behavior analysis always worth digging.
More important, I'd use this to convince all like-minded people who are good at scum hunt, on this issue.

[Vagina]

This is an absolutely terrible idea. Think of all the random trolls/spam accounts that would continue to come back since their accounts are not permanently removed.

[louiswill]

This is an absolutely terrible idea. Think of all the random trolls/spam accounts that would continue to come back since their accounts are not permanently removed.

They are coming back already anyway. Thus, this reason isn't valid.
You probably didn't read through the discussion, but it is okay.

The point is, permban didn't stop them from ruining games.

[Vagina]

I read through the entire discussion. If we are to release these people of their greatest punishment, do you really think that will solve anything? And if their goal is to get banned, why do they keep on coming back?